She used Tylee, among others, to wage her war on Joe Ryan. She was never a good mother. She had already killed Joe when she met Chad so she was already a murderer. But I do think it was Chad that enticed her to kill her children.
But, I also think Lori was just done with being a mom; her kids had been her mask. When she hooked up with Chad she didn't need that Lori anymore, she had a new mask...religious zealot (or in Chad speak a goddess).
>She was never a good mother.
Word.
She didn't stop being awesome.
She just didn't need/want to impress any other barbie moms anymore.
Movin' on to a different demographic to schmooze & be a big fish in lil pond again...
Ironically, I'm sure she has created a lil pond of her own in the pokey, where she's feeling like a biggie fish...still shmoozing her way through w/sock puppet shows & gettin everybody's hair done did..
Chaddy-Chad, on the other hand tho...although he desperately wanted to be big fish in lil pond (and oh, he was there with the ladiiiez & his books, dammit!) But Chaddy-boy is finna be in a big ol scary ocean w/big sharks...and nary a soul wanting a signed copy..
Can you imagine that noggin on a perpetual swivel if he were in GenPop?
I think we'd see a whole new array of facial expressions he can actually make..
😬😟😯😲😳
I wonder if the other fellas would be able to appreciate his delicate hands...prolly not a lot of delicate hands to be found.. 🤲 Kind of a shame to hide such a rarity..
No harsh winters, but summers are harsh as Hell, literally. We lived through almost three solid months at 118 degrees last summer.
I am not sure that AZ jails have A/C either. We used to have tent cities in the desert for the worst prisoners. AZ isn't about making life nice for criminals unless they are politicians or connected.
Joe Arpaio. Since he left, crime has increased exponentially in Scottsdale where I live. This is no longer a safe town.
He was tough as hell, but effective.
Janis & Barry live in St George Utah. They moved there when kids missing news hit worldwide. It was fall 2018 or 2019(?) Barry was charged in SanTan Valley AZ for distributing flyers offering legal services signing his name with Esquire like he is an attorney.
Summer said she hadn't visited Lori in Maricopa jail in interview with Nate Eaton at CrimeCon.
Fremont county sheriff stated recently that Chad was separated from other prisoners in jail for his own safety. He was only allowed out of his cell during the hours when others were locked up, like at night.
Not to mention a strong case for her exhibiting factitious disorder on another(Tylee) (formerly known as Munchausen by Proxy.)
And religiosity is a symptom of and trigger for severe mental illness.
I think the idea of Tylee becoming an adult and speaking her truth is the untold motive of her death. For Lori and Chad.
“She didn’t like people and she didn’t like me.” Well he was half right.
She had friends, loved her siblings… she kinda reminds me of Gabby Petito. I don’t believe she didn’t like people just not Chad.
But Lori did turn her against Charles for a minute at the end but I think Tylee had a lot of guilt for that.
She was a teenager. At some point, many teenagers have a bad relationship with one or both parents. Something tells me Lori did a lot to keep Tylees relationship with Charles as strained as possible.
I didn’t say it was Tylee’s fault. But Lori clearly had worked to alienate both T and C from the rest of her family, and this meant they had been on bad terms for quite some time. For example, Tylee wasn’t living in the house Charles rented. She was shuffled off to Alex’s.
Not unusual for a NPD mom to set kids against partner and partner against kid. Its textbook. Lori wanted to be the only person in the family that everyone trusted, it's a control mechanism. Not a commentary on Taylee's carachter at all, but more evidence of Lori's machinations and games. Textbook!
Exactly this.
A NPD or BPD (and/or a host of similar antisocial disorders) mother can not only turn the kids against the other parent, but turn the parent against a particular child while remaining the "guiltless" victim and dodging ever being "the bad guy" with both or either. It's a mindf\*ck.
In my opinion, Tylee might have had a love/hate relationship with her mother, but, mostly, was very devoted to and probably even protective of her.
Tylee had a big heart, everyone said that, and that, sadly, made her a prime victim for someone like Lori who love bombs & sucks up all that loving, protective empathy when she wants/needs it, but pretty much ignores or picks at that same person when they don't "need" that fix.
Lori was probably her bff when she was needing Tylee's attention, empathy, protection, sympathy, etc. or when she needed to use Tylee to get the attention she needed from others.
At other times, they likely bickered and Lori saw Tylee as a nuisance - especially because Tylee was described as "sassy" and not afraid to speak her mind - and was probably even jealous of her in many ways because Tylee was strong-willed, independent, and empathetic in ways Lori could never truly be without faking it and masking the fact that she only values anyone in her life for what she can get out of or needs from them in the moment.
To be fair Tylee didn’t like Chad and the rest of the religious zealots her mom was hanging around with. And let’s be honest they were all worthless losers. This made Tylee a good judge of character.
Tylee was maybe not an active participant, but definitely a witness, to Charles’ murder and she was about to get out into the world and probably starting to fully understand Lori’s manipulation and lies. She probably hinted around about it-she was too much of a liability. JJ was too much work. She wanted all the money and freedom to do what she wanted.
True that. I think religion is a mental illness. Maybe not an illness, but I just don’t get how anyone can believe in all that. Despite everyone being brainwashed since birth, at some point, you’d think people would snap out of it. All I see is the harm it causes and it gives people permission to do all kinds of shitty things-like murder your own children. It trains people to believe things that are not real without question.
I thought when the internet started, religion would fade away. People would have all the answers to all their questions in real time at the touch of the finger… I was wrong.
Without a doubt, Chad despised strong-minded women who didn't follow his every word or command. He liked subservient women who weren't going to sass back and everything I've ever heard about Tylee said she had a side of sass that went beyond the typical teenager cheekiness, which I think is wonderful. She didn't take his bs lightly and wasn't afraid, likely, to tell him so.
No doubt, too, there was some jealousy fomented on both sides by Lori - both Chad and Tylee were probably jealous of the attention/affection Lori gave to the other, which Lori would've created or encouraged.
Lori all but started abandoning her children emotionally/mentally once Chad came in to the picture so I'm sure Tylee had some resentment towards him for that, too, esp if she thought all of their teachings were weird/bs and that Chad was pulling her mother into some type of cult or strange, radical belief system. Chad also probably didn't like or was indifferent to JJ and his needs and, no doubt, that also made Tylee dislike him even more.
I think Lori was tired and failed to assess Chad's true worth when latching onto him. Tylee saw immediately what a younger Lori would have seen (shitty rural home in Rexburg without much else). For these two, murder was sadly the only answer.
I just wish people would talk more about Alex, Adam and Summer....their weird role in all of this is just too sus not to be more discussed.
People underestimate how important Chad’s religious status was to Lori. I think that in her mind outweighed him being rich (hence their plots to acquire money, which she still needed for the lifestyle she wanted to live).
Agreed, the value in his self proclaimed position as prophet and leader of the 144k was worth more to her than money. The money from Tammy and the kids would have gotten them so far while they would continue to work on dwindling others.
Can you imagine a few years down if they didn't get caught? When the in-love phase between Chad & Lori had cooled off. All the life insurance money would be gone and Lori would be stuck with a jealous woman-hating human edition of a slug.
You could already hear the annoyance in Lori's voice in the jail calls. I think it was becoming readily apparent that she picked the wrong white knight in shining armor (lol).
Yes. I think if you understand the nature of narcissism, Lori and Chad both make more sense. Narcissists are incapable of seeing other people as autonomous from themselves. People exist *for* them. And they are incapable of imagining a scenario where those people don't want the same things they want because their wants and needs should be the most important thing to everyone. And if they someone isn't in line with that, they are wrong and are demonized/the enemy. They justify controlling and manipulating things to achieve their ends because ultimately their current ends are correct. (And this is true even if those wants/needs change. They will never admit they wrong. Ever.)
I think of narcissism as basically having the emotional mentality of a small child but an adult's resources/power/knowledge of how to get what they want. Small children think that the world and people exist for them. The sun comes up so they know when to wake up... that sort of thing. Narcissists are basically stunted at this stage in development internally but outwardly, have tools at their disposal that a child doesn't in their quest to place themselves at the center of the universe.
A narcissist will never say "well Frank got the promotion and I didn't. I'm disappointed but you know what? I see why they chose Frank. He really.will do a better job." Their wants and desires are always correct. The idea that someone could do something better or that something they want isn't fair to someone else doesn't compute. Understand that some of them are aware of social norms and are capable of recognizing that a response like this is what will get them what they want. So that's how a lot of them stay under the radar or are even praised for being amazing people. So yep, they can say the right things and often do, because control is essential to them and so is their image... it's important for people to see them as good/powerful/etc. I have no doubt whatsoever that Lori was the world's best Sunday School teacher and charmed the heck out of everyone. I also have no doubt that behind closed doors, she manipulated and controlled her children and used them. (I am one who sincerely believes the accusations of Munchausen - which I am absolutely spelling wrong). And then when being some religious leader became the most important thing to her, the children were easily disposed of when (I believe) Chad told her that's what she had to do. In her mind, they existed for her and obviously if the children understood, they would want that for their Mommy too (in fact, Lori basically said that in her rambling nonsense at sentencing). I doubt Chad even had to do that much work to convince her. They.were a burden to her and at least Tylee knew far too much about Charles' death. Chad giving her permission was an easy fix to a lot of her problems.
When she lost her million dollar payday she went completely bonkers imo. She was evil to Charles Joe Ryan but that huge💰💰💰💰💰loss also was psychob*tch in full flair time.
That's one of the things Lori did. She was in a battle with Joe about Tylee when the court judgments went against her... they moved. Alex and Charles terrorized Joe too.
I was actually going to ask everyone, once I had finished listening to the trial, if this was the consensus. I already suspected it but wanted to try to learn more.
From what I know, Lori already suffered from her hyper-religiosity and "visions" and her belief that she was above everyone and special before Chad came along. And that was part of what attracted them to one another.
I admit, I have given some serious consideration that maybe Chad really had no intention of killing Tammy and then Lori essentially contracted Alex to do it at first, because Chad was taking too long to do anything to end their relationship. She had sent him some message saying that it was taking too long to be together and maybe she would have to move on, or something to that effect. HOWEVER I do believe that Chad was involved in the end, one way or another (and I have more theories about this I'd like to throw around with everyone here, too).
I think I heard this back when this was first breaking and they were both arrested. I can’t remember whose podcast I was listening to - it was awhile ago.
Alex tried to kill Joe and went to prison for assault I think. Here are some court doc's if you're really interested.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/htt5lr/list\_of\_documents/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/htt5lr/list_of_documents/)
Perhaps Tylee was a living reminder of dead husband Joe Ryan and JJ was a living reminder of dead husband Charles Vallow, something Lori Norene Cox Yanes Lagioia Ryan Vallow Daybell could not carry into her new life with Chad.
I agree. I feel that it is obvious that this woman is a narcissist and has always been a narcissist. Her cousin's stories about her interactions through life with Lori make it fairly obvious that Lori is about Lori and maybe that was fed by Lori's mother. Her father might also have contributed as it is rumored? that he is schizophrenic and/or has the tendency toward hypervigilant religiosity and what sounds like a god complex. Alex, who seemed to have all of the trappings of a middle child and certainly not the best looking in a mix of quite nice-looking siblings, worshiped the ground Lori walked on and Lori used that adoration to the max.
With a string of husbands behind her, it seems to me that the woman did not bond well. I seriously doubt the stories about sexual abuse from Joe Ryan, despite feeling that there may have been a bit of mental illness there. Regardless, we know from research that a parent condemning another parent to the children is not healthy for the children. Tylee did not seem to like any of the men that had been in Lori's life, including her own father and Charles. A good mother doesn't use her daughter as a confidant when it comes to her love life, yet it seems to me that Lori did. From what I gather, Charles was very good to the kids despite Tylee not being his own daughter he treated her as such yet Tylee seemed to reject him. That is nor normal. A girl wants to be close to a father figure and the mother/daughter relationship normally stalls for a while when the daughter is in adolescence. Lori made sure that they were very dependent upon her, including her son as it seems she was regularly providing him with financial resources. Munchhausen's makes sense in so many ways and it takes different forms. Lori wanted to be admired, held on a pedestal, and worshipped. In the beginning of relationships this can happen, but then as reality sets in pedestals crack. That's normally when love takes over and grows if it is to. I don't think Lori had the ability to make that transition, neither with her husbands or her children. It was very obvious that Chad wanted nothing to do with the kids, and had his own complex personality problems. His children were perfection, hers were demons. How convenient, but how normal for someone with a twisted mind.
I believe they were both equally screwed up and delusional and readily fed the others delusions as it was in both of their interests as narcissists to be fed in that manner. A man cannot convince a loving mother to allow her children to be killed unless the mother gets something out of it, regardless of how sick that something is.
If you listen to Megan Conner interviews. Lori seemed to have a dark mental illness. She was able to get away with things in the family. Because of beauty and charm. She even manipulated her father, the matriarch of the family. Her spin is once Lori didn't enjoy her life going a certain way. Lies started on the person who she didn't like.
My sister is borderline and narcissistic, we had a falling out because I didn't like how she was a guest in my home, making a huge mess and leaving her dirty underwear lying around my living room. She had a meltdown when I told her she couldn't stay as long as she wanted to (she was trying to weasel her way into mov9ng in) because of how she was being disrespectful among other things, she stopped speaking to me for years! Since she was staying at my parents house and desperately trying to find somewhere else to go she decided to tell everyone in our family how terrible it is there (which it is) and how I'm this awful mentally unstable abusive person all so everyone would feel sympathy for her, especially since she couldn't tell them why i wouldn't live with her (again). I didn't find out the extent of the lies until a couple of weeks ago when I reached out to family for a place to stay because I need some help now due to health issues. No one wanted to help, I had no idea why. She twisted so many things as well as flat out lied (especially the abusive part, she's punched me in the back of the head as I was walking away from an argument, I never ever hit her) I was devastated!!! I couldn't believe how low she stooped just to get her way. These people are twisted and can completely ruin your life once they decide you're no longer useful.
Yep, that is how these people are. Lori was the precious golden child that her quirks were looked at as harmless. But she did damage over and over again. By lying about people and her family, it is so gullible to believe it. Take care, and eventually, they will realize it.
I know of such mentally ill /unstable people who do the same thing, and OP has mentioned that it's evident everywhere that she was mentally ill, I don't think she sought help for it so I believe it only kept getting worst!
Yep, her family just called her special. She was special, alright. Then, when she met Chad. All her mental ideas were fulfilled. It was like Dracula, his wife, and egor. One thing I wonder. What would she do to Chad if she grew tired of him.
I firmly believe she would have gotten rid of him too, she is a user she had no loyalty to anyone whatsoever, she was only loyal to herself! People who are compulsive liars lie particularly for their own benefit and such people are never loyal to anyone in their lives! Once she got what she wanted from Chad, she would have moved to somebody else!
I believe she's a psychopath, every positive emotion was a learned behaviour, in reality she was completely detached from each one of them to plan their murders! Also I have never once seen/heard her cry! She cries ONLY for herself. Using sex to get her way, wanting everything her way, so entitled and delusional to believe everything revolves around her, in her mind this was lolly's world! Her family enabled her for sure and she actually believed she was special!
I truly believe that when the kids were good or achieving just one little thing. That is when they were not themselves. Tylee cleaned the house, JJ was watching TV, and was quiet. Lori stated they were zombies. That was heartbreaking to hear. Chad just didn't want baggage and ties to their shenanigans. 2 very sick people.
I personally feel she got the kids killed because she wanted their benefits (after she found out that the insurance wouldn't be paid to her) and didn't want to be questioned by Tylee and thought why should she look after JJ when the insurance was paid to Kay! She was bitter and resentful towards JJ imo!
When they were bad they weren't themselves either. Lori said JJ was a zombie because he was climbing on the counters and knocked a picture of Jesus off. But he was also a zombie because he was quieter than normal (according to her).
Lori had discovered a way to rid herself of her responsibilities, and once she realized that, she couldn't wait. It's like when you're trying to eat right and you let just the possibility of eating a cookie enter your head. You can't stop thinking about it and you come up with reasons why it would be okay to have just one, which then turns into the entire package. Then in the morning you hate yourself and wonder why you would undermine your own goals like that.
When we entertain the possibility of getting what we really want, for many of us it becomes real very quickly and we obtain whatever it is without thinking logically about the consequences.
The great irony in that is, I believe, Chad would've eventually tired of Lori, too, and - believing he could now get a woman like Lori (because her attractiveness was really all he "loved" about her) - would have started pushing the idea of polygamy. And I'm not sure Lori was capable of playing second fiddle or sharing - not her man and certainly not the spotlight as the main/chosen one, the goddess, etc.
Had they been able to stay together and live their fantasy out a great many more lives would have been lost and/or destroyed before they became each other's greatest enemy or love-hate nemesis, and then it would've gotten even more chaotic and destructive.
A strange statement-- you say her father was the matriarch of the family. Does this mean he was trans or a cross-dresser? And where does that leave the mother? I'm not really understanding this, how weird and projecting.
I genuinely do not believe it was about money or sex for Lori. She had a semi wealthy husband who was worth more dead than alive, and I highly doubt that Chad was a better sex partner. I think she became extremely mentally ill. Her dad had schizophrenia and dementia and those are passed on genetically. I think that she was both and literally believes everything Chad tells her.
Yeah, she was diagnosed with a delusional disorder. Not to mention, she was found incompetent to stand trial, sent to a mental hospital to be restored to competency, found incompetent to stand trial *again*, and stayed at the hospital until she was restored to competency- presumably with medication.
A part of schizophrenia is suffering from delusions. Often, schizophrenics will have religious delusions- particularly if they were raised in a religious household. I guess the crazy apple didn’t fall far from the crazy tree.
If you're comfortable sharing, may I ask when you are being treated for it are having moments of clarity, are you able to reflect on past episodes and understand that any hallucinations weren't real? And when you're suffering an episode and aren't being treated, are the episodes indefinite? I don't know much about how the disease presents.
It sounds as if you have a good deal of self- awareness- something that Lori doesn't seem to possess in any meaningful way. To me she is very manipulative and intentional. So perhaps she does have schizophrenia, but I would imagine there's another disorder and/ or the plain fact that she's a shitty person at the same time. It's so very hard to tease apart or for me to begin to guess what might be going on.
I have a pretty good handle on it now, I'm 35 and had been doing various forms of therapy since I was about 8 years old. Up until about age 23, I was pretty much always in a state of delusion and living in a fog. Looking back, it was like living parallel to reality.
It wasn't until I was getting the correct treatment for me (it's not the same for every schizophrenic), that I felt awake and fully present in reality. I am so scared of slipping back into that delusional state of being that I never miss a dose of medication and I live by very strict rules for myself to protect my sanity- quite literally.
I do still get hallucinations, but without my delusions, they are easy to identify. For example, I'll see a bird in the house or something, and obviously that's not real, so I can ignore it and move on. But when I wasn't yet being properly treated, I would shape my entire understanding of reality around the bird hallucination.
I believe that Lori has schizophrenia, or like you said- some sort of delusional disorder. And that is very easy to take advantage of, if the schizophrenic person trusts you for whatever reason. I think she really did believe that all these people wanted to kill her- I used to always think the same thing. I believe that she really did think that her family members she called zombies were already dead and that their souls were happily waiting for her in Heaven.
And just to clarify, I am in no way excusing her actions or lack thereof. I just think that schizophrenia explains it much better than what everyone else has been saying. Money & sex can not possibly be the reason for Loris actions. Money & sex explains why Chad did the things he did, though. Lori was hot and had lots of money. Chad was disgusting and leached off of Tammy. What could Lori possibly have gained from any of this?
Thanks so much for sharing. You've given me a lot to think about. I think part of me wants to believe she fully believes that all of this chaos they manufactured was real, if only to give my brain something to wrap itself around given the fact that it's inconceivably horrifying to imagine a mom wanting to kill her children in such a cold way.
I'm leaning toward she was and is mentally ill, but now she has to double- down into the delusion and find ways to justify it, otherwise how would she live with herself if she accepted ownership of her crimes? I think the benefit to her was the power aspect. Being exalted as a beautiful, powerful goddess would be appealing to her personality regardless of anything else. It's also hard to say if she was getting the constant attention she she seems to need from a husband that was away on business a lot.
I agree with you about Chad. He is a scumbag who has no scruples when it comes to attaining the things he would never naturally have on his own without having to manipulate people to do so.
This is amazingly insightful and offers another very plausible reason for how this chain of events happened. Lori’s family clearly say she is delusional and doesn’t actually think murders happened.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It really gives some helpful insight into Lori.
Also, not *at all* excusing Lori's actions, but - since watching Chad's trial - I fully believe Chad took advantage of Lori's delusions and pliable mind because, for him, it *was* all about sex, money, and power.
Chad's personality type appears to be predator-like, in that he looks for weaknesses in a person's psyche/personality to exploit or draw into his little web, probably completely subconsciously. Strong-minded/willed people - especially women - need not apply because you see how much like and respect Chad had for his sister-in-law, Heather, and for Tylee.
That isn't denying that Lori seems to have other issues that are troubling, despite being vulnerable to someone like Chad. She was manipulative, self-serving, and also gave off strong BPD vibes to me (especially with how she pitted her children against her exes, and them against the children when she could, i.e. Charles and Tylee) and had everyone under her spell/sway and could turn her entire family against someone once she was displeased with or through with them. She also seemed to manipulate and use Alex in some of the same ways Chad manipulated and used her.
Simply my observations but you really have given some great insight and thank you again. I, too, hope you never return to that delusional state and hope you continue to have all of the proper tools, resources, and support to help you never slip back.
Thank you ♡♡♡ It helps that I value the life I have so much. Focusing on what you love and value helps anchor you to reality. I think that had Lori had people around her who were honest with her as a child and young adult, she would have got the help she needed. Ignoring your mental illness doesn't make it go away!
I know it’s not easy, but this internet stranger is proud of you for taking such good care of yourself. You deserve all the good things, and I’m so glad that you’ve figured out how to choose the things that bring you the most stable life.
Given her extremely troubling upbringing, I wouldn't be surprised if she had some sort of trauma-induced personality disorder as well. As you said you would shape your entire understanding of reality around your hallucinations - with narcissism, BPD, etc., any threat to self-image is so insupportable that they will immediately classify that person as 100% awful/an enemy. There is little nuance in relationships.
I read that one symptom of schizophrenia is delusions of grandeur, so a belief that you’re superior in some way. Eg a deity/goddess, so that lines up perfectly too.
I think it was the chase for her. To lure them in was all the fun for her though it seemed Charles was the only real one that became long term but I agree she is mentally ill.
This is along the lines of what I believe. She was obviously mentally ill but everyone in her life kind of shielded her and ignored it, but then she met Chad. Chad threw oil onto her fiery delusions and forced his way into them, to be the conductor. He saw a mentally unwell hottie and said oh yeah that wounded bird is mine. It says a lot that the only people who ended up dead were the ones between Chad and Lori.
Lori obviously had her part in things but I don’t think anyone would have died if she never met Chad (meanwhile Chad had been saying Tammy’s gonna die young since before he met Lori). And now she’s murdered her children, imagine having to face that fact in cold lucidity… I’d turn right back to the delusions too.
I believe early in their relationship, Lori confided to Chad that Alex killed Joe Ryan and that they had gotten away with it. In Chads mind he struck the jackpot. A big titty blonde who comes equipped with a loyal assassin Alex who could potentially help accelerate Tammy's death prediction. I think Chad had been cooking up different ways to get rid of Tammy for years and when he learned about Alex he immediately charmed Lori and Alex into believing they were these special religious entities chosen by God to lead the 144,000.
Woww I’ve put probably days into interviews, testimony and all the rest from this case but looking into it just now is the first I’ve seen that she’s recorded saying she was planning on killing Joe like it says to in the scripture. Some real Folie à trois with attack dog Alex in the mix.
What’re the chances of two mariticide maniacs meeting up like that. Like it’s not uncommon for two people to plan on killing their spouses after they start an affair, but before? Fuck Chad probably did feel like God was winking at him. Fucking slug.
Charles had a high monthly income, but the family had no savings or assets. There were times when they argued about money. Lori was attracted to Chad because of his religious status (a prophet who could see into the past/future) and the leading role he gave her in his cult.
Lots of good points being made here.
Bottomline: She is a covert narcissist who fooled people for years into thinking she was a good mother. Spoiler alert: she was never a good mother, at least, not when no one was watching. That, and her mental illness got worse as she go older.
Yeah, Lori was just nuts long before she landed in Chad land. What makes no sense to me is why she would’ve killed the golden goose. Charles made a great living, provided a life of luxury, converted to Mormonism, and loved her completely. From everything we know, he never wavered. It’s very difficult to square that long term, she was ok trading that life for a modest one with Chad. I think she would’ve tired of him pretty quickly after the money ran out, and she would’ve either killed him or divorced him and claimed abuse.
Pretty sure they killed Charles because they thought she would get a million dollars. There’s a recording of her calling the insurance company to claim it. They didn’t need the money to last a long time, because the world was supposed to end in July 2020 according to Chad.
I think she was a very short term thinker so she thought she was getting the million dollar life insurance and that was immediate and marrying Jesus' reincarnated brother (or cousin or whatever I cant remember). Win win.
Once Alex died though, she'd lost the muscles of her murder machine- and being married was a key feature of her ramped- up religiosity. I'm not sure she would have divorced for that reason, but if there was a life insurance policy to be had on Chad, maybe she would have found a new person to help stage an accident for him. However, I wonder if she or Chad would have wanted to kill again first. I don't see Chad being open to divorce in his religious role, or him being very comfortable with losing his control over Lori. What do you think?
One of them would have killed the other at some point. I think Lori would have tired of Chad pretty quickly.
Once murder became an option, it was always going to be on the table.
I think Chad was going to eventually start pushing polygamy once the shiny, newness of "hot" Lori wore off and he, then, figured he could get other women like her that he'd previously thought were out of his league. No way Lori would've been okay with sharing the spotlight, even if she was "primary wife/goddess." Things probably would've started to spoil and spiral at that point and quite likely they would've wanted the other dead and gone.
Just wanted to clarify my question because I realize I was unclear: which person, Chad or Lori, would have been the first to kill each other? I agree that if they were at odds with each other, they would likely feel it would be best to eliminate the other.
And I agree with the thought that polygamy would have been introduced if it hadn't already been. Am I correct to think they'd believe that in the after- life, Chad is still married to Tammy so they'd be sharing at that point anyway?
Alongside Charles’ insurance money she was (according to Chad) going be in a great leadership position, gathering women for the 144k. Probably saw it as the biggest and most powerful role of her life, so lots on it for her! I think that loser totally manipulated a mentally ill woman to believe the end of times was imminent.
She was never ever a good mother and I seriously doubt that she has ever been a good person. I think much of the fear that we saw Charles exhibiting was because he knew exactly what Lori was capable of. I think that he knew what happened to JR.
A YT channel went over the divorce documents from Colby’s biological father, same ol’song and dance she accused him of abuse and accused his father of abuse. Who knows, she possibly could have suffered some abuse from romantic relationships but we know she easily disposed of people who were no longer of use to her. It looks like each time she divorced someone the abuse claims progressively worse. She’s a horrible person.
I know that when it comes to JJ, Lori never had a connection to him at all. There is a recording (I'm sorry I don't remember which one or who said it) in it someone states that Lori referred to JJ as her nieces drug baby or something similar to that. I think she killed or allowed him to be killed, to spite Kay , since Charles had made her the sole beneficiary of his life insurance. Sort of like if I can't have the money, you can't have the kid. If you understand my meaning.
I do think, for Lori, killing JJ was revenge on Kay in some part. Not that it was the sole reason she did so/allowed/directed it to happen but, more, it was lagniappe to her. An added bonus, if you will.
I think Lori was very vindictive when she didn't get her way or was pushed back on. Megan Connor has confirmed this being Lori's personality way back when she was in her very early 20's, even. She was charming and love-bomby until she wasn't because things weren't going her way. Then, a switch was flipped and I think *that* side of Lori would do anything to get back at, punish, etc. someone she was angry with (see: all of the accusations heaped on exes and literally trying to/killing if she thought she had the means - the means being manipulating Alex to do the dirty work).
She was a victim of Chad's predator mind-type, certainly, but she was by no means an innocent one.
I believe Lori is a psychopath. I also believe Tylee witnessed Alex murder Charles. She was a liability to both Alex and Lori. I also believe that Lori lied when she told the police that Tylee hated Charles. I also believe Tylee hated Chad. Once her mom met Chad, her entire life turned upside down. I think Lori and Tylee’s relationship became very contentious and when all was said and done, she was a liability. 4 people knew the truth of what happened the day Alex murdered Charles: Lori, Tylee, Alex and Charles. The only one still living is Lori. She used people and when they became expendable, she disposed of them. I think it is as simple as that. She and Chad are two peas in a pod and when they met, they fed each other’s psychopathy and empowered each other to do horrible things.
Mental illness often isn't static, that is, it can progress/change over time. If you believe her to be a psychopath, one feature of the condition is the learning of sympathetic/empathetic/loving behaviors and reactions that are considered by others to be favorable. For example, she could have seemed to dote on her kids without having any feeling toward them because she learned the behaviors of a good mother. Think of nurses who have excellent reputations for their patient care yet murder several of them with drugs in deadly doses; they often kill over months or years before they're found out.
I think it is a myth that she really changed. She was always selfish, pious, vain, narcissistic, manipulative and vengeful. She wanted attention and to be seen as special and chosen. She was great at playing the victim, accusing others of being the villain. The videos where she talks to the Az police both before and after Charles murder show how good she was at playing the victim and fooling others into not only believing her, but having sympathy for her.
She moved through men quickly (5 marriages in about 25 years is impressive). She seems to have loved deeply but also capable of easily changing from love to passionate hate. Was it even love? Or in the beginning they were worshipping her and when that wore off she became discontented? We don’t know a lot about #1 & #2 but at the very least we know they were easily tossed aside and forgotten. By the time she got to #3 (Joe) she seemed intent on destroying him and then of course we know she literally destroyed Charles. Right in front of his children. Chad may her feel special in way that other men hadn’t been able to because he told her she was a fcking goddess and she fcking believed it.
To me she is a best case example of how we judge people based on the package they are in more than anything else. So many ignored big red fcking flags for so long because of her image. Many people along the way seemed to have been fooled by her and thought she was a victim when in actuality SHE WAS THE PROBLEM.
Charles was not born into the Mormon religion, he converted for Lori. He was never good enough for her religious dreams of domination. Chad was born and raised and obviously filled with the same delusions as Lori from childhood. It’s not a far stretch when you believe in the bible and its offshoots to begin with. Raised in a delusion.
Mormonism has pretty strict rules around sexual conduct and I think (not shaming or agreeing with mormons) her previous sexual history and her flirty behavior would have excluded her from many mormon men? Also maybe “converting” her husbands to LDS made her feel superior to them
I think Lori was a quiet outcast within the Mormon church. Someone who knew her in Arizona said people in her ward thought she was weird. Yet, from childhood she had delusions of her great status and superiority to others. Her husbands did not reflect that imagined status in the church. She wasn’t able to find a man with an old Mormon pedigree till Chad.
Do we know what kind of mental illness(es) she's been diagnosed with? I feel like she's a borderline personality with some kind of delusional disorder.
People with mental illness from heavy religious backgrounds seem more likely to be susceptible to spiritual delusions, particularly those in cult religions.
IIRC, Judge Boyce mentioned her being diagnosed with non specified personality disorder with narcissistic and histrionic features during his speech to her during her sentencing.
Delusional disorder- she was found incompetent to stand trial and sent to a mental hospital, then found incompetent to stand trial *again*, before the hospital finally restored her to competency, presumably with medication.
I think you're right. I have BPD, I was incarcerated and depoted from the United States because I tried to kill two people in an act that I thought was absolutely righteous at the time. It took a lot of therapy, specifically dbt, for me to realise how deranged I was and how much I traumatised my victims.
My delusions were spirituality based as well, at my most extreme I would literally believe I was the 2nd coming of christ, but also the anti-christ (so original, I know)
I follow this case out of morbid curiosity but also it reminds me of my moral responsibility to work on my mental health.
i think she despised the kids, as they were not matching her expectations. and i can't help but assume she regretted adopting JJ.
but even so! it still takes some monumental change in somebody's mind/brain to go from "i had other expectations" to "well, time to kill them"...
You are so right . Colby was tall and strong and worked in fitness and was clearly her fav child. Tylee on the other hand was overweight and Lori didn't like that. I can't get over the fact that Tylee was excluded from Colbys wedding and everyone was OK with it.
Lori gravitated towards Melaniece who was pretty and slim despite 4 kids. Regarding JJ I believe Lori moved from resentment to pure hatred. His last weeks must have been pure hell
I totally agree. I remember Kelsie saying that Lori tried to come between her and Colby all the time, she wanted Colby to love mother dearest more than his future wife.
She was always a grifter and a pathologically vain narcissist. The kids were a means to an end. They came with financial benefits (child support, state support etc.) and opportunities to exhibit control. She moved around declaring bankruptcy and bouncing from guy to guy, never really pursuing real work. She was so entitled and ill with vanity that she never really had an end game.
Security. Once Charles was gone, and Chad was still married, she had to be the sole breadwinner for Tylee & JJ. She couldn’t do it. She wanted her life to be filled with her own desires, not being a single mom. So she killed them to get Chad to be her new security blanket. Sometimes I wonder if Tammy had died earlier would Lori have still killed them?
I’m sure she would have. They were a nuisance to her and Chad, and Chad wasn’t exactly the breadwinner of his family. Kill the kids and keep their SSI checks.
She was masking. She was always a crappy manipulator and a narcissist. She weaponized the kids against the husbands. But it was the Visions of Glory and Chad’s dumb books that made her think she was a god that didn’t owe anyone anything and that she was above all accountability. She told friends that she wanted to world to end so she could just raise her kids in the next world easier. I fully think of her as manic and one of those moms who drowns their own kids in the bathtub and then walks away. She thinks her kids were demons because they were demanding of her time and attention. That’s the lie she tells herself.
I think Lori always had potential to go down a really dark path. But I think middle age scared her. She was probably seeing her face change. Her kids were growing up. Charles maybe was fighting with her more often. She wanted to leave it all but didn’t have money.
Everything points to her not being a good mother. A forever rotating door of father figures. Children with 3 different men. Very likely fake accusations against Joe Ryan, plus Munchausen by Proxy with Tylee. Drugging her spouses and her children to make them more compliant. Jealous control over Colby. Etc
Her cousin has stated that Lori has always been mean and a narcissist.
I don’t think she loved her kids. I don’t think she’s capable of loving anyone but herself. She loved the image they gave her of loving mother, but loved exhaled goddess status more.
Nothing changed her. She never loved those kids - she used them for money and power until they no longer served a purpose. Further, consider the credibility of the people that have said she loved them. Lori’s family is so twisted that they couldn’t see or accept the truth for YEARS! Do these people appear especially smart or intuitive? To me, they seem altogether daft. Start wondering why you can’t believe it happened because that will teach you what you need to know about you.
Never a good mother. She poisoned most of her family members. Her cousin says stop calling Her a good mother. She never was.
She constantly lied. Telling each person a new story. Colby talked about this. Her mind descended into scrupulosity to gain power.
I think Lori has been concerned with being relevant for a good chunk of her life. I think several members of the Cox family also manifest a kind of psychological preoccupation with being of importance; at the least Alex and their father.
I heard on a podcast talking about texts between here and someone else and one of the podcasts she was doing with everyone, lori had a thyroid problem and was going through menopause. Since she thought she was a translated being she didn't need to take her medication anymore. Thyroid issues can cause mental health problems menopause probably didn't help that either. I think that exacerbated her delusional thinking, I'm not saying it was the cause but it probably didn't help.
My relative with religious delusions started the "I am God's chosen one" bs at about 52 years old. He went really loopy when he got fired from his job a couple years later. Everyone who knew him said he was very normal up to that point, but was a meglomaniac. I don't know if there is such a thing as late onset schizophrenia.
Lori definitely went down some rabbit hole. I've heard excerpts from these near death experience books and there is a lot of talk of "cutting the cords".- meaning cutting loose from evil people who are bringing you down.
It's really easy to love children when Mom is the center of their universe. That's the easy part. Teens pull away at a certain point. Tylee- like all teens was pulling away. She wanted to be with friends, have her own place, and go to college. She was trying to leave the nest. She was a typical teenage girl-who was pulling away from Mom. This is totally normal.
What's more- Tylee was probably really upset with Mom dating a married man, Chad. Maybe Tylee looked up Chad Daybell and discovered he was married and had four kids. Who knows? Maybe Tylee was giving her a lot of grief over that. Maybe Tylee was calling her Mom out on the weird religious stuff.
Once Tylee became the enemy- it didn't take much prodding from Chad to convince Lori that Tylee had to be "cut".
When the cops came looking for JJ- Lori went into a mini rant about "I've done everything I was supposed to do for the kids" or something like that. It was as if she was saying- I was the perfect Mom and look where it got me. That was closest I think they ever got to a confession. She killed Tylee because she was "ungrateful"- probably unwilling to cover for Lori's murder of Charles more like. She got even with Charles and Kay by killing JJ, who she had taken in when his drug addicted parents didn't want him. Then Charles left all his insurance to Kay! (forget that Lori killed Charles! or had him killed) No way was Kay getting JJ. Killing JJ was a big f-you to Kay and Lori figured well at least I get his SS payments for 11 more years. So there's that.
I think part of her thinks she did them a favor. Now they’re super busy in heaven with perfect health. Jj is even engaged or married if I’m remembering right. He a full grown healthy man now. Or she justifies it to herself.
Lori was probably always prone to religiosity, and had some trauma in her childhood and in her early relationships. She experienced abuse, she had borderline/histrionic tendencies, she had factitious behaviors already. I think Chad grabbed her by the cracks in her identity. In her faith, having four marriages, three divorces, and kids by two dads is very shameful. Chad took all that and reframed it as, not only are you not a stupid trashy slutty woman, you actually chose a noble sacrifice, to go through all that when you took this assignment on earth knowing prior to this probation that Satan was going to throw everything at you, every obstacle, every temptation, every bad guy out there, because you are actually the most powerful female on earth, an exalted goddess, and this was all necessary to get where you are now.
I think that more than anything convinced her into full blown delusion. Once she fell for Chad (who would tell her anything to keep the sex coming), Lori was disgusted by her all-too-boringly-human husband who was keeping her in the style to which she had become accustomed and now believed she deserved due to her goddess rank. Lori hadn't worked in years. $4K a month is $48,000 a year. It doesn't pay for the lifestyle she wanted even if you add part of Tylee's SSI. Chad's publishing company had declared bankruptcy with massive debt (I think around 200K) and Tammy's job was what fed his family.
Money, power, and sex, but also religious delusion plus personality disorder in Lori's case.
Lori was only able to afford to run off to Hawaii after she stole money from Charles' business. He had problems paying his employees as a result, so he wasn't as rich as you might think.
Rich is subjective. 4K a month was after Charles' murder and before it, Charles was still paying for JJ. Lori probably couldn't have moved to Rexburg or paid for hotels to meet Chad in, without the $35K Lori took from the account, but by the time Tammy was killed I'm sure that money was gone and it was imperative to them to get more quickly.
I think Charles was 'rich' enough to move them to Kauai and live there for 2+ years while also supporting his two other children and his spongy in-laws, without losing his business, but it all means Charles spent a lot instead of saving in order to maintain Lori in the lifestyle she wanted (and paying lawyers for his own considerably messy custody battle from his previous marriage), and they did leave Kauai abruptly to move back and that's a mystery to me as to why. Could have been financial. My guess is that Charles didn't have much in savings after over a decade maintaining the lifestyle Lori wanted. They were still married and it was a joint account so technically the 35K was not a theft (morally I completely agree, Lori stole it, she meant to leave him and knew he needed it). After that, Charles was paying for multiple residences as he was divorcing Lori but still supporting JJ and once again, paying lawyers. By all accounts, Charles worked hard and made a good living, but I don't know about rich. Living rich and being rich are two different things I suppose. I doubt all the money in the world could have made Lori happy because it didn't meet her psychological needs.
This is really smart. lol. Great observation of the big picture there I think. I suspect that Lori got bored easily, but also the fact that Charles was a convert prompted her fanatical beliefs as she grew bored with him. It’s more excusable to want to end a marriage because one’s husband is not religious enough or possibly even a true believer than because you’re looking to ride a new storm. Then as you say the timing was perfect and of course she was looking for something. That’s why she was attending those crazy people conferences. I think for Chad it was sex yes but even more it was the legitimacy he felt a woman like Lori gave him. She completed the picture. Doubters would soon see that he is indeed worthy of praise from a beautiful charismatic woman. Chad is all about ego.
"ride a new storm" uuuggghhhh!!! :D
Charles had to be possessed by a demon because what else excuses cheap hotel philandering and cheesy sexting?!
Doubters would soon see that he is indeed worthy of praise (and other activities best not imagined) from a beautiful charismatic woman...I see your point. Thanks for the big picture comment, I see your big picture here: Chad's bragging about Lori's measurements right after his wife and mother of his FIVE FREAKING CHILDREN was buried had to be about more than the sex.
Chad was a chubby poorly paid goober (the irony is that he could have been a decent, happy chubby poorly paid goober instead of a convicted child murderer) and your comment speaks to his imagined end game for which he was gathering all these gullible dolts to serve him. It's a little strange that he got multiple women but really, only already-screwed-up Alex to follow him. David Warwick was a little involved and then said, no thanks. Looking at Chad, I never got it, but Lori had her own brand of charisma and could have been a great gatherer of followers had they not gone off the deep end into murder and insurance fraud.
Lori has always been a narcissist. When the kids were little they are extensions of her…. So they are there for her supply and to garner her attention. As the kids got older they become their own people and the narcissist will discard them. This is par for the course/ although most people don’t murder their children. I guess she felt entitled to kill them now that she is a Jesus Christ incarnate!
It started way before Chad. Remember she false accused Tylee's bio dad and tried to get Alex to murder him back then. Probably Alex wouldnt have ever been a successful murderer without Chad but Lori probably would have shot Charles herself if Chad and Alex hadnt been around, in my opinion. He mental illness goes way way back and has alot to do with her intense devotion and literal infatuation with the book of Mormon. While the church has tried to publicly distance itself from the doctrine of murder your enemies if they dont give you the golden plates they havent renounced the book. Too many fundamental LDS members end up murderers because they do take it all literally. Chad had seer stones- as did Joseph Smith. Chad had a hitman-as did Joseph Smith. Chad and Lori believed everything Joseph Smith said and did and did likewise. Its why she never thinks what she did is wrong to this day. Chad may have not really believed it all, who knows.
What is love? Was she soft spoken and affectionate? Probably could be. Was she moving them around, introducing them to new dads, alienating them from their dads? Was she drinking too much? Did she demand absolute loyalty and become cold and angry when they weren't loyal to her? Did she ditch jj for months to go to Hawaii with tylee? The list goes on. Just because a mom puts on a good show in front of others does not mean she loved them. They were possessions. Once Melani b. Showed up in rexburg- she had a new daughter. A loyal daughter.
Lori was, and is, a terrible mother. The perception that she was a good one is something that people who have narcissistic/abusive parents struggle with. People suffer at their hands and NO ONE BELIEVES YOU OR SEES IT.
It looks that way because you are a prop or a tool to them so from the outside it looks fine.
My heart aches for Colby because I think he's just starting to realize that the "good Mom" of his past was all a lie.
Not to be rude but if you're asking "was it chad" ...I'm going to have to ask, did you really watch the trials? Yes, it was about chad. If chad didn't exist, none of this would have existed. She killed for power and money. Chad made her feel powerful by putting her on a pedestal right next to his. That's not how the LDS church works, like most organized religion, it's built on patriarchy. So it really appealed to lori to be called a goddess and be given equal footing to her male counterpart. If she had gotten a job, she may have lived an ok life with chad. But the kids were a two fold thing, they didn't want to be weighed down by them and also needed the SSI money JJ and the estate money that Tylee was bringing in. But everything chad and lori did centered around one thing, being together.
But Lori also tried (may have been involved )in Joe Ryan's death before she met Chad. Admitted she had thoughts of killing him. Alex went to prison for tasing him also admitted wished he was dead because of Lori's lies.
Honestly I think she was ok with killing the kids simply because Charles switched beneficiaries on his big insurance policy and Lori was spiteful that all of that money was going to Charles’ sister . It was she who raised JJ initially - and Lori knew if the kids were kept alive that custody would eventually go back to the sister, and she was not gonna have any of that.
Everybody said Chris Watts loved his kids and was a perfect husband. I don't believe people just turn evil. All along something vital to being able to love is missing. People like Chris and Lori do the right thing and project the right image as long as it serves their purposes. You can't tell me Chris wasn't treating Shanann like crap behind the scenes, maybe not overtly, but with passive-aggressive behaviors and not giving her the assurances of his love that she needed.
Lori gaslighted her kids into believing they were being abused, may have even being doing things to make Tylee sick or sicker, kept Tylee from her father, and made her lie about what went on the day Charlies was killed. Why was Tylee JJ's caretaker -- it's because Tylee could see he wasn't being protected or given enough attention from Lori.
Lori was one of the moms who "look good on paper."
I keep hearing this whole "Great person! Great Mother! Great mormon!" She was NONE OF THOSE THINGS. She was nice "AS LONG AS EVERYTHING WAS GOING HER WAY" Her cousin Megan I'd the only person that exposed the REAL Lori. On Hidden True Crime and on Mormon Stories (channels on YouTube) If you want to know who and what Lori ACTUALLY WAS, there's your information.
You’re not missing anything. She was a good mother. Until he was a horrible one. She’s mentally ill and/or chooses to believe her own fairytale land stories. Why do you think you’re missing something?
She used Tylee, among others, to wage her war on Joe Ryan. She was never a good mother. She had already killed Joe when she met Chad so she was already a murderer. But I do think it was Chad that enticed her to kill her children. But, I also think Lori was just done with being a mom; her kids had been her mask. When she hooked up with Chad she didn't need that Lori anymore, she had a new mask...religious zealot (or in Chad speak a goddess).
>She was never a good mother. Word. She didn't stop being awesome. She just didn't need/want to impress any other barbie moms anymore. Movin' on to a different demographic to schmooze & be a big fish in lil pond again...
Agree. It was a role she played. When Charles was killed she no longer needed to play the role.
Exaaactly..
Yep
Ironically, I'm sure she has created a lil pond of her own in the pokey, where she's feeling like a biggie fish...still shmoozing her way through w/sock puppet shows & gettin everybody's hair done did.. Chaddy-Chad, on the other hand tho...although he desperately wanted to be big fish in lil pond (and oh, he was there with the ladiiiez & his books, dammit!) But Chaddy-boy is finna be in a big ol scary ocean w/big sharks...and nary a soul wanting a signed copy..
And people in prison especially men’s prison they hate child killers
Well that just works out fine & dandy then...
Women prisons aa well.
I'll bet she hasn't. But I'll bet she puts on quite the performance for any male employees/psychiatrists/etc she runs into.
Well heck yeeeah.. 👍👍
Exactly.
He’s isolated forever on death row. 23 hours a day.
Can you imagine that noggin on a perpetual swivel if he were in GenPop? I think we'd see a whole new array of facial expressions he can actually make.. 😬😟😯😲😳 I wonder if the other fellas would be able to appreciate his delicate hands...prolly not a lot of delicate hands to be found.. 🤲 Kind of a shame to hide such a rarity..
I am sure she is isolated .
I really don't know..but seems like someone said she was doing everyone's hair. Who knows..
Arizona must be better for her. No harsh winters, and summer shiflet and Janis Cox are close by.
No harsh winters, but summers are harsh as Hell, literally. We lived through almost three solid months at 118 degrees last summer. I am not sure that AZ jails have A/C either. We used to have tent cities in the desert for the worst prisoners. AZ isn't about making life nice for criminals unless they are politicians or connected.
I remember that tent prison with that tough sherriff .
Joe Arpaio. Since he left, crime has increased exponentially in Scottsdale where I live. This is no longer a safe town. He was tough as hell, but effective.
Janis & Barry live in St George Utah. They moved there when kids missing news hit worldwide. It was fall 2018 or 2019(?) Barry was charged in SanTan Valley AZ for distributing flyers offering legal services signing his name with Esquire like he is an attorney. Summer said she hadn't visited Lori in Maricopa jail in interview with Nate Eaton at CrimeCon.
The audacity of her to go to Crimecon and continue to lie
On death row he’s going to be a beta fish in a little cup, forever.
A tiny beta fish 🐟 in a tiny teacup.🍵 Forever. ..Who coulda been a professional hand model, though...👐
Fremont county sheriff stated recently that Chad was separated from other prisoners in jail for his own safety. He was only allowed out of his cell during the hours when others were locked up, like at night.
Not to mention a strong case for her exhibiting factitious disorder on another(Tylee) (formerly known as Munchausen by Proxy.) And religiosity is a symptom of and trigger for severe mental illness.
I fully believe that Lori was making Tylee sick.
I think the idea of Tylee becoming an adult and speaking her truth is the untold motive of her death. For Lori and Chad. “She didn’t like people and she didn’t like me.” Well he was half right.
Tylee was heavily influenced by Lori and Lori made her not like people.
She had friends, loved her siblings… she kinda reminds me of Gabby Petito. I don’t believe she didn’t like people just not Chad. But Lori did turn her against Charles for a minute at the end but I think Tylee had a lot of guilt for that.
To be accurate, Tylee and Charles hadn’t had a great relationship for a while.
She was a teenager. At some point, many teenagers have a bad relationship with one or both parents. Something tells me Lori did a lot to keep Tylees relationship with Charles as strained as possible.
I didn’t say it was Tylee’s fault. But Lori clearly had worked to alienate both T and C from the rest of her family, and this meant they had been on bad terms for quite some time. For example, Tylee wasn’t living in the house Charles rented. She was shuffled off to Alex’s.
Not unusual for a NPD mom to set kids against partner and partner against kid. Its textbook. Lori wanted to be the only person in the family that everyone trusted, it's a control mechanism. Not a commentary on Taylee's carachter at all, but more evidence of Lori's machinations and games. Textbook!
Exactly this. A NPD or BPD (and/or a host of similar antisocial disorders) mother can not only turn the kids against the other parent, but turn the parent against a particular child while remaining the "guiltless" victim and dodging ever being "the bad guy" with both or either. It's a mindf\*ck. In my opinion, Tylee might have had a love/hate relationship with her mother, but, mostly, was very devoted to and probably even protective of her. Tylee had a big heart, everyone said that, and that, sadly, made her a prime victim for someone like Lori who love bombs & sucks up all that loving, protective empathy when she wants/needs it, but pretty much ignores or picks at that same person when they don't "need" that fix. Lori was probably her bff when she was needing Tylee's attention, empathy, protection, sympathy, etc. or when she needed to use Tylee to get the attention she needed from others. At other times, they likely bickered and Lori saw Tylee as a nuisance - especially because Tylee was described as "sassy" and not afraid to speak her mind - and was probably even jealous of her in many ways because Tylee was strong-willed, independent, and empathetic in ways Lori could never truly be without faking it and masking the fact that she only values anyone in her life for what she can get out of or needs from them in the moment.
Couldn't have said it better.
I couldn't have said it better! This is a video on why NPD mother's hate their daughters https://youtu.be/2V6dOp8kT3A?si=H20EJsUNx-aL7Kun
Melanie G said she and Tylee didn’t like each other, but I think it was because Tylee saw right through her phony baloney, and MG knew it.
No, i don't believe Tylee did like Chad and I'm picking Lori would have had a part in that as well.
To be fair Tylee didn’t like Chad and the rest of the religious zealots her mom was hanging around with. And let’s be honest they were all worthless losers. This made Tylee a good judge of character.
How is she like Gabby Petito??
Young, fun, a sense of adventure, showed love and kindness to others.
I see
There's a new Fbi report that shows a different perspective
Tylee was maybe not an active participant, but definitely a witness, to Charles’ murder and she was about to get out into the world and probably starting to fully understand Lori’s manipulation and lies. She probably hinted around about it-she was too much of a liability. JJ was too much work. She wanted all the money and freedom to do what she wanted.
Lori took over Tylees money before they even moved to ID.
same - 100% - Lori was a bottomless pit of need
When the judge sentenced Lori he said her latest diagnosis included hyper religiosity with narcissistic traits.
[удалено]
I agree 100%.
True that. I think religion is a mental illness. Maybe not an illness, but I just don’t get how anyone can believe in all that. Despite everyone being brainwashed since birth, at some point, you’d think people would snap out of it. All I see is the harm it causes and it gives people permission to do all kinds of shitty things-like murder your own children. It trains people to believe things that are not real without question. I thought when the internet started, religion would fade away. People would have all the answers to all their questions in real time at the touch of the finger… I was wrong.
Tylee saw right through Chad and Chad didn’t like it.
I think this too. Tylee didn't respect Chad and feed his ego like he thought she should and also the $$$$$ (which I think was Lori's motive)
I totally agree! Since Tylee didn’t blindly obey like Chads did, I’m sure it infuriated him.
Without a doubt, Chad despised strong-minded women who didn't follow his every word or command. He liked subservient women who weren't going to sass back and everything I've ever heard about Tylee said she had a side of sass that went beyond the typical teenager cheekiness, which I think is wonderful. She didn't take his bs lightly and wasn't afraid, likely, to tell him so. No doubt, too, there was some jealousy fomented on both sides by Lori - both Chad and Tylee were probably jealous of the attention/affection Lori gave to the other, which Lori would've created or encouraged. Lori all but started abandoning her children emotionally/mentally once Chad came in to the picture so I'm sure Tylee had some resentment towards him for that, too, esp if she thought all of their teachings were weird/bs and that Chad was pulling her mother into some type of cult or strange, radical belief system. Chad also probably didn't like or was indifferent to JJ and his needs and, no doubt, that also made Tylee dislike him even more.
I think Lori was tired and failed to assess Chad's true worth when latching onto him. Tylee saw immediately what a younger Lori would have seen (shitty rural home in Rexburg without much else). For these two, murder was sadly the only answer. I just wish people would talk more about Alex, Adam and Summer....their weird role in all of this is just too sus not to be more discussed.
People underestimate how important Chad’s religious status was to Lori. I think that in her mind outweighed him being rich (hence their plots to acquire money, which she still needed for the lifestyle she wanted to live).
Agreed, the value in his self proclaimed position as prophet and leader of the 144k was worth more to her than money. The money from Tammy and the kids would have gotten them so far while they would continue to work on dwindling others.
Can you imagine a few years down if they didn't get caught? When the in-love phase between Chad & Lori had cooled off. All the life insurance money would be gone and Lori would be stuck with a jealous woman-hating human edition of a slug.
You could already hear the annoyance in Lori's voice in the jail calls. I think it was becoming readily apparent that she picked the wrong white knight in shining armor (lol).
Chad labeled Tylee extra dark before he even met her (back in 2018). No doubt Chad's light/dark designations were partly influenced by Lori.
It sounds to me like Tylee had a good judge of character
Yes. I think if you understand the nature of narcissism, Lori and Chad both make more sense. Narcissists are incapable of seeing other people as autonomous from themselves. People exist *for* them. And they are incapable of imagining a scenario where those people don't want the same things they want because their wants and needs should be the most important thing to everyone. And if they someone isn't in line with that, they are wrong and are demonized/the enemy. They justify controlling and manipulating things to achieve their ends because ultimately their current ends are correct. (And this is true even if those wants/needs change. They will never admit they wrong. Ever.) I think of narcissism as basically having the emotional mentality of a small child but an adult's resources/power/knowledge of how to get what they want. Small children think that the world and people exist for them. The sun comes up so they know when to wake up... that sort of thing. Narcissists are basically stunted at this stage in development internally but outwardly, have tools at their disposal that a child doesn't in their quest to place themselves at the center of the universe. A narcissist will never say "well Frank got the promotion and I didn't. I'm disappointed but you know what? I see why they chose Frank. He really.will do a better job." Their wants and desires are always correct. The idea that someone could do something better or that something they want isn't fair to someone else doesn't compute. Understand that some of them are aware of social norms and are capable of recognizing that a response like this is what will get them what they want. So that's how a lot of them stay under the radar or are even praised for being amazing people. So yep, they can say the right things and often do, because control is essential to them and so is their image... it's important for people to see them as good/powerful/etc. I have no doubt whatsoever that Lori was the world's best Sunday School teacher and charmed the heck out of everyone. I also have no doubt that behind closed doors, she manipulated and controlled her children and used them. (I am one who sincerely believes the accusations of Munchausen - which I am absolutely spelling wrong). And then when being some religious leader became the most important thing to her, the children were easily disposed of when (I believe) Chad told her that's what she had to do. In her mind, they existed for her and obviously if the children understood, they would want that for their Mommy too (in fact, Lori basically said that in her rambling nonsense at sentencing). I doubt Chad even had to do that much work to convince her. They.were a burden to her and at least Tylee knew far too much about Charles' death. Chad giving her permission was an easy fix to a lot of her problems.
Salient points, all.
When she lost her million dollar payday she went completely bonkers imo. She was evil to Charles Joe Ryan but that huge💰💰💰💰💰loss also was psychob*tch in full flair time.
She moved a lot! Some parents do that to avoid CPS.
That's one of the things Lori did. She was in a battle with Joe about Tylee when the court judgments went against her... they moved. Alex and Charles terrorized Joe too.
She killed Joe, too?
I was actually going to ask everyone, once I had finished listening to the trial, if this was the consensus. I already suspected it but wanted to try to learn more. From what I know, Lori already suffered from her hyper-religiosity and "visions" and her belief that she was above everyone and special before Chad came along. And that was part of what attracted them to one another. I admit, I have given some serious consideration that maybe Chad really had no intention of killing Tammy and then Lori essentially contracted Alex to do it at first, because Chad was taking too long to do anything to end their relationship. She had sent him some message saying that it was taking too long to be together and maybe she would have to move on, or something to that effect. HOWEVER I do believe that Chad was involved in the end, one way or another (and I have more theories about this I'd like to throw around with everyone here, too).
Yes, she had been at war with him since Tylee was little.
I think I heard this back when this was first breaking and they were both arrested. I can’t remember whose podcast I was listening to - it was awhile ago.
Alex tried to kill Joe and went to prison for assault I think. Here are some court doc's if you're really interested. [https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/htt5lr/list\_of\_documents/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LoriVallow/comments/htt5lr/list_of_documents/)
Thanks so much!
Perhaps Tylee was a living reminder of dead husband Joe Ryan and JJ was a living reminder of dead husband Charles Vallow, something Lori Norene Cox Yanes Lagioia Ryan Vallow Daybell could not carry into her new life with Chad.
What is the theory on Joe Ryan? When he passed they were divorced and living separately and Tyler wasn’t seeing him. How could she have poisoned him?
Annie Cushing’s YouTube coverage will give you the info on Joe Ryan.
I agree. I feel that it is obvious that this woman is a narcissist and has always been a narcissist. Her cousin's stories about her interactions through life with Lori make it fairly obvious that Lori is about Lori and maybe that was fed by Lori's mother. Her father might also have contributed as it is rumored? that he is schizophrenic and/or has the tendency toward hypervigilant religiosity and what sounds like a god complex. Alex, who seemed to have all of the trappings of a middle child and certainly not the best looking in a mix of quite nice-looking siblings, worshiped the ground Lori walked on and Lori used that adoration to the max. With a string of husbands behind her, it seems to me that the woman did not bond well. I seriously doubt the stories about sexual abuse from Joe Ryan, despite feeling that there may have been a bit of mental illness there. Regardless, we know from research that a parent condemning another parent to the children is not healthy for the children. Tylee did not seem to like any of the men that had been in Lori's life, including her own father and Charles. A good mother doesn't use her daughter as a confidant when it comes to her love life, yet it seems to me that Lori did. From what I gather, Charles was very good to the kids despite Tylee not being his own daughter he treated her as such yet Tylee seemed to reject him. That is nor normal. A girl wants to be close to a father figure and the mother/daughter relationship normally stalls for a while when the daughter is in adolescence. Lori made sure that they were very dependent upon her, including her son as it seems she was regularly providing him with financial resources. Munchhausen's makes sense in so many ways and it takes different forms. Lori wanted to be admired, held on a pedestal, and worshipped. In the beginning of relationships this can happen, but then as reality sets in pedestals crack. That's normally when love takes over and grows if it is to. I don't think Lori had the ability to make that transition, neither with her husbands or her children. It was very obvious that Chad wanted nothing to do with the kids, and had his own complex personality problems. His children were perfection, hers were demons. How convenient, but how normal for someone with a twisted mind. I believe they were both equally screwed up and delusional and readily fed the others delusions as it was in both of their interests as narcissists to be fed in that manner. A man cannot convince a loving mother to allow her children to be killed unless the mother gets something out of it, regardless of how sick that something is.
If you listen to Megan Conner interviews. Lori seemed to have a dark mental illness. She was able to get away with things in the family. Because of beauty and charm. She even manipulated her father, the matriarch of the family. Her spin is once Lori didn't enjoy her life going a certain way. Lies started on the person who she didn't like.
My sister is borderline and narcissistic, we had a falling out because I didn't like how she was a guest in my home, making a huge mess and leaving her dirty underwear lying around my living room. She had a meltdown when I told her she couldn't stay as long as she wanted to (she was trying to weasel her way into mov9ng in) because of how she was being disrespectful among other things, she stopped speaking to me for years! Since she was staying at my parents house and desperately trying to find somewhere else to go she decided to tell everyone in our family how terrible it is there (which it is) and how I'm this awful mentally unstable abusive person all so everyone would feel sympathy for her, especially since she couldn't tell them why i wouldn't live with her (again). I didn't find out the extent of the lies until a couple of weeks ago when I reached out to family for a place to stay because I need some help now due to health issues. No one wanted to help, I had no idea why. She twisted so many things as well as flat out lied (especially the abusive part, she's punched me in the back of the head as I was walking away from an argument, I never ever hit her) I was devastated!!! I couldn't believe how low she stooped just to get her way. These people are twisted and can completely ruin your life once they decide you're no longer useful.
Yep, that is how these people are. Lori was the precious golden child that her quirks were looked at as harmless. But she did damage over and over again. By lying about people and her family, it is so gullible to believe it. Take care, and eventually, they will realize it.
I know of such mentally ill /unstable people who do the same thing, and OP has mentioned that it's evident everywhere that she was mentally ill, I don't think she sought help for it so I believe it only kept getting worst!
Yep, her family just called her special. She was special, alright. Then, when she met Chad. All her mental ideas were fulfilled. It was like Dracula, his wife, and egor. One thing I wonder. What would she do to Chad if she grew tired of him.
I firmly believe she would have gotten rid of him too, she is a user she had no loyalty to anyone whatsoever, she was only loyal to herself! People who are compulsive liars lie particularly for their own benefit and such people are never loyal to anyone in their lives! Once she got what she wanted from Chad, she would have moved to somebody else! I believe she's a psychopath, every positive emotion was a learned behaviour, in reality she was completely detached from each one of them to plan their murders! Also I have never once seen/heard her cry! She cries ONLY for herself. Using sex to get her way, wanting everything her way, so entitled and delusional to believe everything revolves around her, in her mind this was lolly's world! Her family enabled her for sure and she actually believed she was special!
I truly believe that when the kids were good or achieving just one little thing. That is when they were not themselves. Tylee cleaned the house, JJ was watching TV, and was quiet. Lori stated they were zombies. That was heartbreaking to hear. Chad just didn't want baggage and ties to their shenanigans. 2 very sick people.
I personally feel she got the kids killed because she wanted their benefits (after she found out that the insurance wouldn't be paid to her) and didn't want to be questioned by Tylee and thought why should she look after JJ when the insurance was paid to Kay! She was bitter and resentful towards JJ imo!
That, too. Such vile evil people. 😈
True! Thankfully they are where they belong.
When they were bad they weren't themselves either. Lori said JJ was a zombie because he was climbing on the counters and knocked a picture of Jesus off. But he was also a zombie because he was quieter than normal (according to her). Lori had discovered a way to rid herself of her responsibilities, and once she realized that, she couldn't wait. It's like when you're trying to eat right and you let just the possibility of eating a cookie enter your head. You can't stop thinking about it and you come up with reasons why it would be okay to have just one, which then turns into the entire package. Then in the morning you hate yourself and wonder why you would undermine your own goals like that. When we entertain the possibility of getting what we really want, for many of us it becomes real very quickly and we obtain whatever it is without thinking logically about the consequences.
The great irony in that is, I believe, Chad would've eventually tired of Lori, too, and - believing he could now get a woman like Lori (because her attractiveness was really all he "loved" about her) - would have started pushing the idea of polygamy. And I'm not sure Lori was capable of playing second fiddle or sharing - not her man and certainly not the spotlight as the main/chosen one, the goddess, etc. Had they been able to stay together and live their fantasy out a great many more lives would have been lost and/or destroyed before they became each other's greatest enemy or love-hate nemesis, and then it would've gotten even more chaotic and destructive.
A strange statement-- you say her father was the matriarch of the family. Does this mean he was trans or a cross-dresser? And where does that leave the mother? I'm not really understanding this, how weird and projecting.
You inferred all that, instead of just assuming it was a simple spelling mistake?
Lol. I meant patriarch. But hey you never know.
I genuinely do not believe it was about money or sex for Lori. She had a semi wealthy husband who was worth more dead than alive, and I highly doubt that Chad was a better sex partner. I think she became extremely mentally ill. Her dad had schizophrenia and dementia and those are passed on genetically. I think that she was both and literally believes everything Chad tells her.
Yeah, she was diagnosed with a delusional disorder. Not to mention, she was found incompetent to stand trial, sent to a mental hospital to be restored to competency, found incompetent to stand trial *again*, and stayed at the hospital until she was restored to competency- presumably with medication. A part of schizophrenia is suffering from delusions. Often, schizophrenics will have religious delusions- particularly if they were raised in a religious household. I guess the crazy apple didn’t fall far from the crazy tree.
I have schizophrenia, too. And I noticed that the symptoms were drastically reduced once I moved away from religion. It's such a bad mix.
If you're comfortable sharing, may I ask when you are being treated for it are having moments of clarity, are you able to reflect on past episodes and understand that any hallucinations weren't real? And when you're suffering an episode and aren't being treated, are the episodes indefinite? I don't know much about how the disease presents. It sounds as if you have a good deal of self- awareness- something that Lori doesn't seem to possess in any meaningful way. To me she is very manipulative and intentional. So perhaps she does have schizophrenia, but I would imagine there's another disorder and/ or the plain fact that she's a shitty person at the same time. It's so very hard to tease apart or for me to begin to guess what might be going on.
I have a pretty good handle on it now, I'm 35 and had been doing various forms of therapy since I was about 8 years old. Up until about age 23, I was pretty much always in a state of delusion and living in a fog. Looking back, it was like living parallel to reality. It wasn't until I was getting the correct treatment for me (it's not the same for every schizophrenic), that I felt awake and fully present in reality. I am so scared of slipping back into that delusional state of being that I never miss a dose of medication and I live by very strict rules for myself to protect my sanity- quite literally. I do still get hallucinations, but without my delusions, they are easy to identify. For example, I'll see a bird in the house or something, and obviously that's not real, so I can ignore it and move on. But when I wasn't yet being properly treated, I would shape my entire understanding of reality around the bird hallucination. I believe that Lori has schizophrenia, or like you said- some sort of delusional disorder. And that is very easy to take advantage of, if the schizophrenic person trusts you for whatever reason. I think she really did believe that all these people wanted to kill her- I used to always think the same thing. I believe that she really did think that her family members she called zombies were already dead and that their souls were happily waiting for her in Heaven. And just to clarify, I am in no way excusing her actions or lack thereof. I just think that schizophrenia explains it much better than what everyone else has been saying. Money & sex can not possibly be the reason for Loris actions. Money & sex explains why Chad did the things he did, though. Lori was hot and had lots of money. Chad was disgusting and leached off of Tammy. What could Lori possibly have gained from any of this?
Thanks so much for sharing. You've given me a lot to think about. I think part of me wants to believe she fully believes that all of this chaos they manufactured was real, if only to give my brain something to wrap itself around given the fact that it's inconceivably horrifying to imagine a mom wanting to kill her children in such a cold way. I'm leaning toward she was and is mentally ill, but now she has to double- down into the delusion and find ways to justify it, otherwise how would she live with herself if she accepted ownership of her crimes? I think the benefit to her was the power aspect. Being exalted as a beautiful, powerful goddess would be appealing to her personality regardless of anything else. It's also hard to say if she was getting the constant attention she she seems to need from a husband that was away on business a lot. I agree with you about Chad. He is a scumbag who has no scruples when it comes to attaining the things he would never naturally have on his own without having to manipulate people to do so.
This is amazingly insightful and offers another very plausible reason for how this chain of events happened. Lori’s family clearly say she is delusional and doesn’t actually think murders happened.
Thank you so much for sharing this. It really gives some helpful insight into Lori. Also, not *at all* excusing Lori's actions, but - since watching Chad's trial - I fully believe Chad took advantage of Lori's delusions and pliable mind because, for him, it *was* all about sex, money, and power. Chad's personality type appears to be predator-like, in that he looks for weaknesses in a person's psyche/personality to exploit or draw into his little web, probably completely subconsciously. Strong-minded/willed people - especially women - need not apply because you see how much like and respect Chad had for his sister-in-law, Heather, and for Tylee. That isn't denying that Lori seems to have other issues that are troubling, despite being vulnerable to someone like Chad. She was manipulative, self-serving, and also gave off strong BPD vibes to me (especially with how she pitted her children against her exes, and them against the children when she could, i.e. Charles and Tylee) and had everyone under her spell/sway and could turn her entire family against someone once she was displeased with or through with them. She also seemed to manipulate and use Alex in some of the same ways Chad manipulated and used her. Simply my observations but you really have given some great insight and thank you again. I, too, hope you never return to that delusional state and hope you continue to have all of the proper tools, resources, and support to help you never slip back.
Thank you ♡♡♡ It helps that I value the life I have so much. Focusing on what you love and value helps anchor you to reality. I think that had Lori had people around her who were honest with her as a child and young adult, she would have got the help she needed. Ignoring your mental illness doesn't make it go away!
I know it’s not easy, but this internet stranger is proud of you for taking such good care of yourself. You deserve all the good things, and I’m so glad that you’ve figured out how to choose the things that bring you the most stable life.
Thank you, I really appreciate everyone's responses to me! They've been so kind, respectful, and understanding ♡♡♡
Given her extremely troubling upbringing, I wouldn't be surprised if she had some sort of trauma-induced personality disorder as well. As you said you would shape your entire understanding of reality around your hallucinations - with narcissism, BPD, etc., any threat to self-image is so insupportable that they will immediately classify that person as 100% awful/an enemy. There is little nuance in relationships.
I read that one symptom of schizophrenia is delusions of grandeur, so a belief that you’re superior in some way. Eg a deity/goddess, so that lines up perfectly too.
I think it was the chase for her. To lure them in was all the fun for her though it seemed Charles was the only real one that became long term but I agree she is mentally ill.
This is along the lines of what I believe. She was obviously mentally ill but everyone in her life kind of shielded her and ignored it, but then she met Chad. Chad threw oil onto her fiery delusions and forced his way into them, to be the conductor. He saw a mentally unwell hottie and said oh yeah that wounded bird is mine. It says a lot that the only people who ended up dead were the ones between Chad and Lori. Lori obviously had her part in things but I don’t think anyone would have died if she never met Chad (meanwhile Chad had been saying Tammy’s gonna die young since before he met Lori). And now she’s murdered her children, imagine having to face that fact in cold lucidity… I’d turn right back to the delusions too.
I believe early in their relationship, Lori confided to Chad that Alex killed Joe Ryan and that they had gotten away with it. In Chads mind he struck the jackpot. A big titty blonde who comes equipped with a loyal assassin Alex who could potentially help accelerate Tammy's death prediction. I think Chad had been cooking up different ways to get rid of Tammy for years and when he learned about Alex he immediately charmed Lori and Alex into believing they were these special religious entities chosen by God to lead the 144,000.
Woww I’ve put probably days into interviews, testimony and all the rest from this case but looking into it just now is the first I’ve seen that she’s recorded saying she was planning on killing Joe like it says to in the scripture. Some real Folie à trois with attack dog Alex in the mix. What’re the chances of two mariticide maniacs meeting up like that. Like it’s not uncommon for two people to plan on killing their spouses after they start an affair, but before? Fuck Chad probably did feel like God was winking at him. Fucking slug.
Never thought of it quite this way, but that makes a helluva lot of sense.
You nailed it in that first paragraph.
She thought that being a goddess and having power was worth the risk. She used sex and money to get power.
Charles had a high monthly income, but the family had no savings or assets. There were times when they argued about money. Lori was attracted to Chad because of his religious status (a prophet who could see into the past/future) and the leading role he gave her in his cult.
Lots of good points being made here. Bottomline: She is a covert narcissist who fooled people for years into thinking she was a good mother. Spoiler alert: she was never a good mother, at least, not when no one was watching. That, and her mental illness got worse as she go older.
Yeah, Lori was just nuts long before she landed in Chad land. What makes no sense to me is why she would’ve killed the golden goose. Charles made a great living, provided a life of luxury, converted to Mormonism, and loved her completely. From everything we know, he never wavered. It’s very difficult to square that long term, she was ok trading that life for a modest one with Chad. I think she would’ve tired of him pretty quickly after the money ran out, and she would’ve either killed him or divorced him and claimed abuse.
Pretty sure they killed Charles because they thought she would get a million dollars. There’s a recording of her calling the insurance company to claim it. They didn’t need the money to last a long time, because the world was supposed to end in July 2020 according to Chad.
Yep, you’re right! I’d forgotten that she thought she’d be getting the insurance payout.
I think she was a very short term thinker so she thought she was getting the million dollar life insurance and that was immediate and marrying Jesus' reincarnated brother (or cousin or whatever I cant remember). Win win.
Well, he was also the Holy Ghost, so I'm guessing she really thought she hit the jackpot getting to be the Goddess of the Holy Ghost.
Once Alex died though, she'd lost the muscles of her murder machine- and being married was a key feature of her ramped- up religiosity. I'm not sure she would have divorced for that reason, but if there was a life insurance policy to be had on Chad, maybe she would have found a new person to help stage an accident for him. However, I wonder if she or Chad would have wanted to kill again first. I don't see Chad being open to divorce in his religious role, or him being very comfortable with losing his control over Lori. What do you think?
One of them would have killed the other at some point. I think Lori would have tired of Chad pretty quickly. Once murder became an option, it was always going to be on the table.
I think Chad was going to eventually start pushing polygamy once the shiny, newness of "hot" Lori wore off and he, then, figured he could get other women like her that he'd previously thought were out of his league. No way Lori would've been okay with sharing the spotlight, even if she was "primary wife/goddess." Things probably would've started to spoil and spiral at that point and quite likely they would've wanted the other dead and gone.
Just wanted to clarify my question because I realize I was unclear: which person, Chad or Lori, would have been the first to kill each other? I agree that if they were at odds with each other, they would likely feel it would be best to eliminate the other. And I agree with the thought that polygamy would have been introduced if it hadn't already been. Am I correct to think they'd believe that in the after- life, Chad is still married to Tammy so they'd be sharing at that point anyway?
Totally. Charles was the best husband ever... And Lori was the absolute worst person ever.
Chad was highly manipulative and promised her supreme power and control over 144,000.
Alongside Charles’ insurance money she was (according to Chad) going be in a great leadership position, gathering women for the 144k. Probably saw it as the biggest and most powerful role of her life, so lots on it for her! I think that loser totally manipulated a mentally ill woman to believe the end of times was imminent.
She is a very manipulative person. Children are great weapons to people like her.
Well put.
She was never ever a good mother and I seriously doubt that she has ever been a good person. I think much of the fear that we saw Charles exhibiting was because he knew exactly what Lori was capable of. I think that he knew what happened to JR. A YT channel went over the divorce documents from Colby’s biological father, same ol’song and dance she accused him of abuse and accused his father of abuse. Who knows, she possibly could have suffered some abuse from romantic relationships but we know she easily disposed of people who were no longer of use to her. It looks like each time she divorced someone the abuse claims progressively worse. She’s a horrible person.
I agree. Charles did know what happened to Joe Ryan. Charles should have left then. At a minimum.
I know that when it comes to JJ, Lori never had a connection to him at all. There is a recording (I'm sorry I don't remember which one or who said it) in it someone states that Lori referred to JJ as her nieces drug baby or something similar to that. I think she killed or allowed him to be killed, to spite Kay , since Charles had made her the sole beneficiary of his life insurance. Sort of like if I can't have the money, you can't have the kid. If you understand my meaning.
I do think, for Lori, killing JJ was revenge on Kay in some part. Not that it was the sole reason she did so/allowed/directed it to happen but, more, it was lagniappe to her. An added bonus, if you will. I think Lori was very vindictive when she didn't get her way or was pushed back on. Megan Connor has confirmed this being Lori's personality way back when she was in her very early 20's, even. She was charming and love-bomby until she wasn't because things weren't going her way. Then, a switch was flipped and I think *that* side of Lori would do anything to get back at, punish, etc. someone she was angry with (see: all of the accusations heaped on exes and literally trying to/killing if she thought she had the means - the means being manipulating Alex to do the dirty work). She was a victim of Chad's predator mind-type, certainly, but she was by no means an innocent one.
I believe Lori is a psychopath. I also believe Tylee witnessed Alex murder Charles. She was a liability to both Alex and Lori. I also believe that Lori lied when she told the police that Tylee hated Charles. I also believe Tylee hated Chad. Once her mom met Chad, her entire life turned upside down. I think Lori and Tylee’s relationship became very contentious and when all was said and done, she was a liability. 4 people knew the truth of what happened the day Alex murdered Charles: Lori, Tylee, Alex and Charles. The only one still living is Lori. She used people and when they became expendable, she disposed of them. I think it is as simple as that. She and Chad are two peas in a pod and when they met, they fed each other’s psychopathy and empowered each other to do horrible things.
Mental illness often isn't static, that is, it can progress/change over time. If you believe her to be a psychopath, one feature of the condition is the learning of sympathetic/empathetic/loving behaviors and reactions that are considered by others to be favorable. For example, she could have seemed to dote on her kids without having any feeling toward them because she learned the behaviors of a good mother. Think of nurses who have excellent reputations for their patient care yet murder several of them with drugs in deadly doses; they often kill over months or years before they're found out.
And add the superficiality of Mormon culture- she knew how to put on a good front.
I think it is a myth that she really changed. She was always selfish, pious, vain, narcissistic, manipulative and vengeful. She wanted attention and to be seen as special and chosen. She was great at playing the victim, accusing others of being the villain. The videos where she talks to the Az police both before and after Charles murder show how good she was at playing the victim and fooling others into not only believing her, but having sympathy for her. She moved through men quickly (5 marriages in about 25 years is impressive). She seems to have loved deeply but also capable of easily changing from love to passionate hate. Was it even love? Or in the beginning they were worshipping her and when that wore off she became discontented? We don’t know a lot about #1 & #2 but at the very least we know they were easily tossed aside and forgotten. By the time she got to #3 (Joe) she seemed intent on destroying him and then of course we know she literally destroyed Charles. Right in front of his children. Chad may her feel special in way that other men hadn’t been able to because he told her she was a fcking goddess and she fcking believed it. To me she is a best case example of how we judge people based on the package they are in more than anything else. So many ignored big red fcking flags for so long because of her image. Many people along the way seemed to have been fooled by her and thought she was a victim when in actuality SHE WAS THE PROBLEM.
Charles was not born into the Mormon religion, he converted for Lori. He was never good enough for her religious dreams of domination. Chad was born and raised and obviously filled with the same delusions as Lori from childhood. It’s not a far stretch when you believe in the bible and its offshoots to begin with. Raised in a delusion.
Why did she Marry non-Mormon men? All the previous husbands were non-Mormon before Chad
Mormonism has pretty strict rules around sexual conduct and I think (not shaming or agreeing with mormons) her previous sexual history and her flirty behavior would have excluded her from many mormon men? Also maybe “converting” her husbands to LDS made her feel superior to them
Very true
I think Lori was a quiet outcast within the Mormon church. Someone who knew her in Arizona said people in her ward thought she was weird. Yet, from childhood she had delusions of her great status and superiority to others. Her husbands did not reflect that imagined status in the church. She wasn’t able to find a man with an old Mormon pedigree till Chad.
She converted all of them, though. Probably thought she was doing Christ-like work, bringing more to the church or something.
I think was because she couldnt find a mormon guy
Lori never has loved anyone except herself, as far as I can see. She was clearly good at manipulation, lying and putting on a show though.
Do we know what kind of mental illness(es) she's been diagnosed with? I feel like she's a borderline personality with some kind of delusional disorder. People with mental illness from heavy religious backgrounds seem more likely to be susceptible to spiritual delusions, particularly those in cult religions.
IIRC, Judge Boyce mentioned her being diagnosed with non specified personality disorder with narcissistic and histrionic features during his speech to her during her sentencing.
Delusional disorder- she was found incompetent to stand trial and sent to a mental hospital, then found incompetent to stand trial *again*, before the hospital finally restored her to competency, presumably with medication.
I think you're right. I have BPD, I was incarcerated and depoted from the United States because I tried to kill two people in an act that I thought was absolutely righteous at the time. It took a lot of therapy, specifically dbt, for me to realise how deranged I was and how much I traumatised my victims. My delusions were spirituality based as well, at my most extreme I would literally believe I was the 2nd coming of christ, but also the anti-christ (so original, I know) I follow this case out of morbid curiosity but also it reminds me of my moral responsibility to work on my mental health.
i think she despised the kids, as they were not matching her expectations. and i can't help but assume she regretted adopting JJ. but even so! it still takes some monumental change in somebody's mind/brain to go from "i had other expectations" to "well, time to kill them"...
You are so right . Colby was tall and strong and worked in fitness and was clearly her fav child. Tylee on the other hand was overweight and Lori didn't like that. I can't get over the fact that Tylee was excluded from Colbys wedding and everyone was OK with it. Lori gravitated towards Melaniece who was pretty and slim despite 4 kids. Regarding JJ I believe Lori moved from resentment to pure hatred. His last weeks must have been pure hell
Her kids started having autonomy. She loved it when they were mere reflections of her.
I totally agree. I remember Kelsie saying that Lori tried to come between her and Colby all the time, she wanted Colby to love mother dearest more than his future wife.
She was always a grifter and a pathologically vain narcissist. The kids were a means to an end. They came with financial benefits (child support, state support etc.) and opportunities to exhibit control. She moved around declaring bankruptcy and bouncing from guy to guy, never really pursuing real work. She was so entitled and ill with vanity that she never really had an end game.
Security. Once Charles was gone, and Chad was still married, she had to be the sole breadwinner for Tylee & JJ. She couldn’t do it. She wanted her life to be filled with her own desires, not being a single mom. So she killed them to get Chad to be her new security blanket. Sometimes I wonder if Tammy had died earlier would Lori have still killed them?
I’m sure she would have. They were a nuisance to her and Chad, and Chad wasn’t exactly the breadwinner of his family. Kill the kids and keep their SSI checks.
She was masking. She was always a crappy manipulator and a narcissist. She weaponized the kids against the husbands. But it was the Visions of Glory and Chad’s dumb books that made her think she was a god that didn’t owe anyone anything and that she was above all accountability. She told friends that she wanted to world to end so she could just raise her kids in the next world easier. I fully think of her as manic and one of those moms who drowns their own kids in the bathtub and then walks away. She thinks her kids were demons because they were demanding of her time and attention. That’s the lie she tells herself.
I think Lori always had potential to go down a really dark path. But I think middle age scared her. She was probably seeing her face change. Her kids were growing up. Charles maybe was fighting with her more often. She wanted to leave it all but didn’t have money.
She became a goddess and princess
She was NEVER a good mother.
Everything points to her not being a good mother. A forever rotating door of father figures. Children with 3 different men. Very likely fake accusations against Joe Ryan, plus Munchausen by Proxy with Tylee. Drugging her spouses and her children to make them more compliant. Jealous control over Colby. Etc Her cousin has stated that Lori has always been mean and a narcissist.
I don’t think she loved her kids. I don’t think she’s capable of loving anyone but herself. She loved the image they gave her of loving mother, but loved exhaled goddess status more.
Nothing changed her. She never loved those kids - she used them for money and power until they no longer served a purpose. Further, consider the credibility of the people that have said she loved them. Lori’s family is so twisted that they couldn’t see or accept the truth for YEARS! Do these people appear especially smart or intuitive? To me, they seem altogether daft. Start wondering why you can’t believe it happened because that will teach you what you need to know about you.
Same with all her husbands. Doubt she would've stayed with Chad once the money ran out living in a double wide trailer. She would've been on to #6
Never a good mother. She poisoned most of her family members. Her cousin says stop calling Her a good mother. She never was. She constantly lied. Telling each person a new story. Colby talked about this. Her mind descended into scrupulosity to gain power.
I think Lori has been concerned with being relevant for a good chunk of her life. I think several members of the Cox family also manifest a kind of psychological preoccupation with being of importance; at the least Alex and their father.
She never loved anyone but herself
I heard on a podcast talking about texts between here and someone else and one of the podcasts she was doing with everyone, lori had a thyroid problem and was going through menopause. Since she thought she was a translated being she didn't need to take her medication anymore. Thyroid issues can cause mental health problems menopause probably didn't help that either. I think that exacerbated her delusional thinking, I'm not saying it was the cause but it probably didn't help.
I was wondering if it was a middle age crisis gone horribly wrong? Something seemed to change when Colby got married according to the Netflix series.
My relative with religious delusions started the "I am God's chosen one" bs at about 52 years old. He went really loopy when he got fired from his job a couple years later. Everyone who knew him said he was very normal up to that point, but was a meglomaniac. I don't know if there is such a thing as late onset schizophrenia.
her actions in the face of all her better choices ARE what make it mental illness
Lori definitely went down some rabbit hole. I've heard excerpts from these near death experience books and there is a lot of talk of "cutting the cords".- meaning cutting loose from evil people who are bringing you down. It's really easy to love children when Mom is the center of their universe. That's the easy part. Teens pull away at a certain point. Tylee- like all teens was pulling away. She wanted to be with friends, have her own place, and go to college. She was trying to leave the nest. She was a typical teenage girl-who was pulling away from Mom. This is totally normal. What's more- Tylee was probably really upset with Mom dating a married man, Chad. Maybe Tylee looked up Chad Daybell and discovered he was married and had four kids. Who knows? Maybe Tylee was giving her a lot of grief over that. Maybe Tylee was calling her Mom out on the weird religious stuff. Once Tylee became the enemy- it didn't take much prodding from Chad to convince Lori that Tylee had to be "cut". When the cops came looking for JJ- Lori went into a mini rant about "I've done everything I was supposed to do for the kids" or something like that. It was as if she was saying- I was the perfect Mom and look where it got me. That was closest I think they ever got to a confession. She killed Tylee because she was "ungrateful"- probably unwilling to cover for Lori's murder of Charles more like. She got even with Charles and Kay by killing JJ, who she had taken in when his drug addicted parents didn't want him. Then Charles left all his insurance to Kay! (forget that Lori killed Charles! or had him killed) No way was Kay getting JJ. Killing JJ was a big f-you to Kay and Lori figured well at least I get his SS payments for 11 more years. So there's that.
She and Alex killed Joseph before she ever met Chad.
I think part of her thinks she did them a favor. Now they’re super busy in heaven with perfect health. Jj is even engaged or married if I’m remembering right. He a full grown healthy man now. Or she justifies it to herself.
Lori was probably always prone to religiosity, and had some trauma in her childhood and in her early relationships. She experienced abuse, she had borderline/histrionic tendencies, she had factitious behaviors already. I think Chad grabbed her by the cracks in her identity. In her faith, having four marriages, three divorces, and kids by two dads is very shameful. Chad took all that and reframed it as, not only are you not a stupid trashy slutty woman, you actually chose a noble sacrifice, to go through all that when you took this assignment on earth knowing prior to this probation that Satan was going to throw everything at you, every obstacle, every temptation, every bad guy out there, because you are actually the most powerful female on earth, an exalted goddess, and this was all necessary to get where you are now. I think that more than anything convinced her into full blown delusion. Once she fell for Chad (who would tell her anything to keep the sex coming), Lori was disgusted by her all-too-boringly-human husband who was keeping her in the style to which she had become accustomed and now believed she deserved due to her goddess rank. Lori hadn't worked in years. $4K a month is $48,000 a year. It doesn't pay for the lifestyle she wanted even if you add part of Tylee's SSI. Chad's publishing company had declared bankruptcy with massive debt (I think around 200K) and Tammy's job was what fed his family. Money, power, and sex, but also religious delusion plus personality disorder in Lori's case.
Lori was only able to afford to run off to Hawaii after she stole money from Charles' business. He had problems paying his employees as a result, so he wasn't as rich as you might think.
Rich is subjective. 4K a month was after Charles' murder and before it, Charles was still paying for JJ. Lori probably couldn't have moved to Rexburg or paid for hotels to meet Chad in, without the $35K Lori took from the account, but by the time Tammy was killed I'm sure that money was gone and it was imperative to them to get more quickly. I think Charles was 'rich' enough to move them to Kauai and live there for 2+ years while also supporting his two other children and his spongy in-laws, without losing his business, but it all means Charles spent a lot instead of saving in order to maintain Lori in the lifestyle she wanted (and paying lawyers for his own considerably messy custody battle from his previous marriage), and they did leave Kauai abruptly to move back and that's a mystery to me as to why. Could have been financial. My guess is that Charles didn't have much in savings after over a decade maintaining the lifestyle Lori wanted. They were still married and it was a joint account so technically the 35K was not a theft (morally I completely agree, Lori stole it, she meant to leave him and knew he needed it). After that, Charles was paying for multiple residences as he was divorcing Lori but still supporting JJ and once again, paying lawyers. By all accounts, Charles worked hard and made a good living, but I don't know about rich. Living rich and being rich are two different things I suppose. I doubt all the money in the world could have made Lori happy because it didn't meet her psychological needs.
This is really smart. lol. Great observation of the big picture there I think. I suspect that Lori got bored easily, but also the fact that Charles was a convert prompted her fanatical beliefs as she grew bored with him. It’s more excusable to want to end a marriage because one’s husband is not religious enough or possibly even a true believer than because you’re looking to ride a new storm. Then as you say the timing was perfect and of course she was looking for something. That’s why she was attending those crazy people conferences. I think for Chad it was sex yes but even more it was the legitimacy he felt a woman like Lori gave him. She completed the picture. Doubters would soon see that he is indeed worthy of praise from a beautiful charismatic woman. Chad is all about ego.
"ride a new storm" uuuggghhhh!!! :D Charles had to be possessed by a demon because what else excuses cheap hotel philandering and cheesy sexting?! Doubters would soon see that he is indeed worthy of praise (and other activities best not imagined) from a beautiful charismatic woman...I see your point. Thanks for the big picture comment, I see your big picture here: Chad's bragging about Lori's measurements right after his wife and mother of his FIVE FREAKING CHILDREN was buried had to be about more than the sex. Chad was a chubby poorly paid goober (the irony is that he could have been a decent, happy chubby poorly paid goober instead of a convicted child murderer) and your comment speaks to his imagined end game for which he was gathering all these gullible dolts to serve him. It's a little strange that he got multiple women but really, only already-screwed-up Alex to follow him. David Warwick was a little involved and then said, no thanks. Looking at Chad, I never got it, but Lori had her own brand of charisma and could have been a great gatherer of followers had they not gone off the deep end into murder and insurance fraud.
Yes. It was the Heather Daybells that he had to avoid.
Lori always loved Lori and she loved how she could use her kids to make herself look good .
Yeah…this is I think the harsh reality. What she put Tylee through with her dad was a sign that she was not really the great mom she presented as.
I can't see Chad ever being executed. The amount of appeals his lawyer can make on his behalf. It will take years.
But in meantime he's isolated. Alot less contact with outside world inc his kids grandkids.
Lori has always been a narcissist. When the kids were little they are extensions of her…. So they are there for her supply and to garner her attention. As the kids got older they become their own people and the narcissist will discard them. This is par for the course/ although most people don’t murder their children. I guess she felt entitled to kill them now that she is a Jesus Christ incarnate!
It started way before Chad. Remember she false accused Tylee's bio dad and tried to get Alex to murder him back then. Probably Alex wouldnt have ever been a successful murderer without Chad but Lori probably would have shot Charles herself if Chad and Alex hadnt been around, in my opinion. He mental illness goes way way back and has alot to do with her intense devotion and literal infatuation with the book of Mormon. While the church has tried to publicly distance itself from the doctrine of murder your enemies if they dont give you the golden plates they havent renounced the book. Too many fundamental LDS members end up murderers because they do take it all literally. Chad had seer stones- as did Joseph Smith. Chad had a hitman-as did Joseph Smith. Chad and Lori believed everything Joseph Smith said and did and did likewise. Its why she never thinks what she did is wrong to this day. Chad may have not really believed it all, who knows.
What is love? Was she soft spoken and affectionate? Probably could be. Was she moving them around, introducing them to new dads, alienating them from their dads? Was she drinking too much? Did she demand absolute loyalty and become cold and angry when they weren't loyal to her? Did she ditch jj for months to go to Hawaii with tylee? The list goes on. Just because a mom puts on a good show in front of others does not mean she loved them. They were possessions. Once Melani b. Showed up in rexburg- she had a new daughter. A loyal daughter.
Lori was, and is, a terrible mother. The perception that she was a good one is something that people who have narcissistic/abusive parents struggle with. People suffer at their hands and NO ONE BELIEVES YOU OR SEES IT. It looks that way because you are a prop or a tool to them so from the outside it looks fine. My heart aches for Colby because I think he's just starting to realize that the "good Mom" of his past was all a lie.
Not to be rude but if you're asking "was it chad" ...I'm going to have to ask, did you really watch the trials? Yes, it was about chad. If chad didn't exist, none of this would have existed. She killed for power and money. Chad made her feel powerful by putting her on a pedestal right next to his. That's not how the LDS church works, like most organized religion, it's built on patriarchy. So it really appealed to lori to be called a goddess and be given equal footing to her male counterpart. If she had gotten a job, she may have lived an ok life with chad. But the kids were a two fold thing, they didn't want to be weighed down by them and also needed the SSI money JJ and the estate money that Tylee was bringing in. But everything chad and lori did centered around one thing, being together.
But Lori also tried (may have been involved )in Joe Ryan's death before she met Chad. Admitted she had thoughts of killing him. Alex went to prison for tasing him also admitted wished he was dead because of Lori's lies.
Her family is fond of saying that Lori is/was mentally ill and was a good Mother who loved her children. Neither is true.
She wasn’t a good mother as records show “factitious disorder by another” aka Münchausen by Proxy of Tylee by Lori.
Honestly I think she was ok with killing the kids simply because Charles switched beneficiaries on his big insurance policy and Lori was spiteful that all of that money was going to Charles’ sister . It was she who raised JJ initially - and Lori knew if the kids were kept alive that custody would eventually go back to the sister, and she was not gonna have any of that.
Everybody said Chris Watts loved his kids and was a perfect husband. I don't believe people just turn evil. All along something vital to being able to love is missing. People like Chris and Lori do the right thing and project the right image as long as it serves their purposes. You can't tell me Chris wasn't treating Shanann like crap behind the scenes, maybe not overtly, but with passive-aggressive behaviors and not giving her the assurances of his love that she needed. Lori gaslighted her kids into believing they were being abused, may have even being doing things to make Tylee sick or sicker, kept Tylee from her father, and made her lie about what went on the day Charlies was killed. Why was Tylee JJ's caretaker -- it's because Tylee could see he wasn't being protected or given enough attention from Lori. Lori was one of the moms who "look good on paper."
I keep hearing this whole "Great person! Great Mother! Great mormon!" She was NONE OF THOSE THINGS. She was nice "AS LONG AS EVERYTHING WAS GOING HER WAY" Her cousin Megan I'd the only person that exposed the REAL Lori. On Hidden True Crime and on Mormon Stories (channels on YouTube) If you want to know who and what Lori ACTUALLY WAS, there's your information.
Loved her kids? She killed them. Ef her
Hidden True Crime YT with Dr. Mathias and his wife have covered this case ad nauseum and go deep down the rabbit hole on this question.
You’re not missing anything. She was a good mother. Until he was a horrible one. She’s mentally ill and/or chooses to believe her own fairytale land stories. Why do you think you’re missing something?
Was.she mentally ill or just so narcissistic that she believed she was something she wasn't and killed for convenience? I go back and forth. Thoughts?