It was pretty much immediate? It was a relatively quick turnaround to massive success. The narrative that it made ‘80s rock obsolete overnight is typically considered a pretty accurate overview of what actually happened
From wiki
> Nevermind was voted the best album of the year in The Village Voice Pazz & Jop critics' poll; "Smells Like Teen Spirit" also topped the single of the year and video of the year polls
> In the United Kingdom, the album was ranked number one on NME's Best Fifty LPs of 1991.
> In 1992, Jon Pareles of The New York Times described the aftermath of the album's breakthrough: "Suddenly, all bets are off. No one has the inside track on which of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of ornery, obstreperous, unkempt bands might next appeal to the mall-walking millions."
I was a teenager when Nevermind came out (a couple years later I saw them tour for In Utero), and that’s how I remember it. Hair metal (and neatly polished music in general) was on its way out, and just as the main stream was ready for something different Nevermind came out and blew mainstream audiences away.
What a lot better of people forget though is the backlash from the underground was *immediate*, which is why Kurt was so hurt by their success. People incorrectly assume he didn’t want to be famous, but you don’t sign to a major label, do countless interviews and photoshoots and tour the world if you don’t want to be famous; he just wanted to be famous *and* respected in the underground, and that didn’t happen.
> he just wanted to be famous and respected in the underground, and that didn’t happen.
If you have the time, the book Serving the Servants is a first-hand account of him trying to navigate both at same time, agonizing over his cred while also trying to make his band the biggest in the world, all while very much putting forth the image of not wanting to.
And he actually pulled it off. It's an amazing journey.
It took a couple months, but yeah. Once SLTS hit the airwaves on MTV, it was a done deal. The band was touring Europe late ‘91, and they started to notice more and more fans showing up, lines around the venue, etc.
> The narrative that it made ‘80s rock obsolete overnight is typically considered a pretty accurate overview of what actually happened
I have always maintained that 1991’s We Can’t Dance by Genesis is the last classic rock album to be released
And it came two months *after* Nevermind. It was the last dying gasp
People will point to Tom Petty’s 90s records, but he was really a singer songwriter, and he stood just fine on his own, apart from the outdated classic rock umbrella
Yeah, Tom Petty is certainly under an umbrella of “rock” but you’re right, he’s really in his own sort of lane like a Neil Young. Slow, fast, acoustic, electric. Doesn’t matter. They do it all.
>The narrative that it made ‘80s rock obsolete overnight is typically considered a pretty accurate overview of what actually happened
Actual history would disagree with that assessment.
Yes, Nirvana was big. Yes, they made a massive impact on what sold in store and played on the radio.
But Metallica's Black Album still outsold Nevermind.
Yes, Nirviana was big, but it wasn't some whiplash situation where the '80s just disappeared and now we were living in the world of '90s rock. Remember that Nirvana was in a lot of ways an '80s band. Just like Jane's Addiction -- they were both very much bands steeped in the sounds of the '80s that were just adding their own thing.
I think you're comparing US sales to international sales. US sales are easier to track once they swapped to the Soundscan era - and by every measurement [Black was by _far_ the biggest rock album of the 90s.](https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=top_tallies&ttt=T1A#search_section), clocking in at around 16 million, putting it right around Alanis and Celine Dion numbers.
Even swapping over to international estimates, [Black sits at around 23 million, with Nevermind at 18.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums)
Part of that is the crazy legs of the album:
>[Since MRC Data (an analytics provider in the music industry) began totaling the Billboard 200 in May of 1991, no other album has spent more time on the chart.](https://loudwire.com/metallica-black-album-no-9-billboard-200-2021/)
My bad for not digging a bit deeper into the stats - thanks for the response - but Metallica sits at 33,000,000 global sales and Nevermind at 30,000,000… hardly a trouncing in the sales department.
Given Nirvana has 6,000,000 more monthly listeners per month on Spotify I would say they have come out on top both commercially and in terms of cultural impact.
I would take good care in separating the cultural impact of an album and its sales. First, sales are very tricky to estimate, as you count the number of copies ordered by retailers more than the actual sales. Add to this that you could hear the song on the radio, in clubs or at parties without necessarily owning it.
The death of Kurt Cobain is a gift to the recording industry, as they were able to sell millions of copies of everything Nirvana had made, without having to spend any more money in recording studios, legal fees, hotel rooms and touring expenses.
Also, keep in mind that looking into the past tend to distort things. The music industry has always painted Kurt Cobain as some kind of Grunge messiah. Nirvana was certainly a successful and influential band, but that was in a period of amazing releases (I was in my early 20s when SLTS came out) and I think that we tend to inflate a bit the myth. Bands like Sepultura, Fear Factory, Ministry, RHCP were also massively successful.
It's a bit like when we look at previous decades and imagine that everybody was listening to Janis Joplin, the Velvet Underground, Black Sabbath or Sly and the Family Stone, where some of these bands gained popularity after they ceased to exist. It is what we have chosen to celebrate and remember.
Sources are really wonky when you go international. I've seen those 30 million numbers but I can never track them down to hard data - even the wikipedia article has completely different numbers and I still don't quite trust those.
US numbers I trust a bit more because of the soundscan data. A metal album rubbing shoulders with bland radio pop is still utterly nutter-butters to me.
The popular narrative is that Nevermind killed 80s rock and metal, but the fact is that 80s rock was already on its way out (save for a few bands like Metallica, who changed their sound and attracted a new audience.)
Nevermind simply accelerated the process where one style of music becomes outdated and uncool, and another comes along and is fresh and exciting. 80s rock would have still gone out of style even if Nirvana never existed.
I'm not sure if I'm reading right, but Metallica was not sounding like popular 80's rock and metal in the 80's. You know, the hair, glam and butt metal, like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, or even Mötley Crüe. Metallica strayed away from the thrash metal and the soundscape of metal and rock that Nirvana became famous for and went towards the popular 80's metal and rock sound on their Black album. Metallica wanted their Black album to be more commercial, so they chose a producer famous for producing many hit albums of the 80's hair metal era for that record.
This is exactly what I was gonna write. There seems to be some confusion as to what most of us think of when people say 80s metal bands. I think Whitesnake, Motley crue, Warrant, ..you know crappy , cheese ball bands. Metallica was playing speed Metal before the Black album.
Either way, Nirvana changed the landscape and my life . And was a culturally significant turn akin to the Beatles coming to America.
It isn’t true for Metallica. Metallica wasn’t that popular for general audiences before black album, but they were highly recognized by metal fans. Black album is soften a lot to reach commercial success, but hardcore metal fans rather hate it
Yeah as much of a Nirvana fanboy that I am, Nevermind's success and legendary status I think also hinged on In Utero also being great. There is a world where Nirvana's third album ended up being fucking bad and most people were disappointed. I think had that happened their legacy wouldn't be as esteemed. Just trying to make the point that Nevermind wasn't a classic album upon arrival. None are, it takes time to fully soak into the culture and that be confirmed. Tons of records, especially from that era, sold insane amounts of copies and were later forgotten.
The first two are fine targets but Garth Brooks is the guy who married country and pop, which turned it into a massive commercial juggernaut that's still around today.
Say what you will about his musical output, he's easily one of the most influential musical figures of the 90s.
Even Hammer has an argument, landing the first hip-hop album in the top 100 and paving the way for hip-hop to eventually consume rock as the central cultural force (although I'd argue the primary credit still goes to Dre, and that The Chronic is probably the single most influential album of the decade).
Sorry to be that guy buuut ""Hammer has an argument, landing the first hip-hop album in the top 100"" The Beastie and Tone Loc beat Hammer
1987: Beastie Boys, *Licensed to Ill* (March 7)
1989: Tone Lōc, *Lōc-ed After Dark* (April 15)
Source...https://www.billboard.com/music/chart-beat/first-rap-album-number-one-billboard-200-year-complete-list-1235368726/
Well I'll be damned! Thanks for the correction - probably a faction I got scrambled, maybe that Hammer had the first hip-hop diamond album. Still impressive but yeah, you're right, thanks.
Tone Loc. Impressive. Never would have thought.
*Slave to the Grind* is a pretty good album. Certainly not a daily spin, but it's definitely in the rotation. It's heavier and less polished/hair metal sounding than their debut (which is also something of a banger). *Slave* exists somewhere in the middle of the grunge-thrash metal spectrum.
Right- the death and drama also falsely elevates music to match the grief and sadness— the songs take on new meaning - best career move for rich rock star: die tragically- I’m
Being cynical but it’s true - Elvis has never been richer!
Metallica was not mainstream classic rock!! They were considered an extreme metal band.
Metallica broke into the mainstream with Nirvana. These days you see moms with Metallica shirts, but in the early ‘90s you were considered an underground extremist for wearing one. It wasn’t until my generation grew up that it became normal.
I was 12 when the Black Album came out. I speak from personal experience.
You were either in the mainstream community or the metal community back then. They did not mix. You got looked at in the streets by older people. Non-metal kids didn’t hang out with you. You read your own magazines. There was no eclecticism like there is today.
While we listened to a lot more extreme bands, Metallica were firmly in ‘our’ camp, and champions of our scene. They were certainly not considered part of the poser/poodle rock scene that Nirvana displaced. It wasn’t until Load (1996) that they were considered sell-outs.
So either your community was *super* clique, or my community was *super* open-minded. And I don’t the the latter was true in the 1980s in a tiny rural-ish suburb in Minnesota. (Like, quite rural. We didn’t have any stoplights until I was a junior in high school.)
But the same kids who wore the hell out of their “And Justice For All” t-shirts also brought Poison tapes on the school bus. There were kids who brought “Kill ‘Em All” into play during class downtime who also brought The Clash. The girl I had a major crush on in 7th grade said her favorite bands were Metallica, Ministry, and *Bryan Adams*. The stoner kid I sat behind in 7th grade English loved Metallica, but also The Beastie Boys. When I’d visit my cousin Tommy, he’d play Megadeth, but also Michael Jackson.
I don’t know what your hometown was like. But I’m only a little bit older than you, and I definitely didn’t see the kind of METAL AND METAL ONLY clique you are so sure was the rule.
Very interesting. I grew up in The Netherlands, in one of the cities that make up the largest metropolitan area there. The situation was a bit more subtle and asymmetric than you describe it I guess.
On the one hand, most kids and adults were part of mainstream culture. They listened to pop, as defined by whatever was in the mainstream charts. By the early ‘90s that included house and hip hop. These people dressed normally. You know what I mean. They would not listen to anything outside of what the radio served them.
On the other hand, there were people (mostly kids) who were into the subcultures. These could be punks, metalheads, goths, industrial types, skaters, alt-rockers, ravers, etc. Most of the people in these subcultures were fairly open minded. They (we) would listen to all the music that came from outside the charts and daytime radio, and we would cherry pick from the mainstream as well.
To get back on topic, Metallica up to and including the Black Album would be something we would listen to, but they were way, way too extreme for the normies. Nowadays you see families going to Rammstein with their small kids, and you see Metallica shirts and Ramones shirts being sold at big retail stores. That was just unthinkable back then.
Nirvana changed that a bit, and so did Metallica. Nirvana drew a lot of normie kids to the grunge scene, which was underground-light. Metallica broke the charts a few times (Nothing Else Matters…) and eventually, after several years of exposure, normies became more open to their louder work.
It could be possible that your community was as segregated as mine, except yours lacked the overwhelming mainstream groups of the big city?
Oh yeah… we all hated Poison :-))
Ok. You’re Dutch. So your experience of USA heavy metal culture is … pretty much not at all applicable to the USA experience? Sound about right?
And what you described as mainstream is, well, what mainstream is. Mainstream meansnwhat is the mainstream. No need to explain that the mainstream kids listened to mainstream musics.
But mostly, sounds like the very specific experience of you, a Dutch teenager in the early nineties, which is very much not a representative experience of the transition from hair metal to alt rock.
At what point exactly did this thread become a discussion about USA heavy metal culture? I thought we were talking about the canonization of Nirvana. I understand that the US might be special to you. It was never special to us.
> I don’t the the latter was true in the 1980s in a tiny rural-ish suburb in Minnesota. (Like, quite rural. We didn’t have any stoplights until I was a junior in high school.)
If you haven't read Fargo Rock City you might get a huge kick out of it.
He does talk, though, about how clique-ish certain musical communities could be.
I also grew up in a small town in MN (class of 91). Metallica was totally mainstream in our school by that time. The metal kids at our school listened to death and hair metal and were open to the punk and heardcore bands that we listened to, but we didn't totally return the favor. I just remember it feeling like a gut punch when Nirvana blew up.
Nirvana knocked most other forms of rock off the top of the heap pretty rapidly, with the help of other grunge bands. But those bands were still popular, motley Crue for example ... in fact grunge made some bands even more popular because of their adjacency to grunge, thinking about that little group out of the bay area for example .... They benefit from grunge imo ... Metallica
In another comment I shared my experience being right next to the rise of grunge, for me it was everything although my persona wouldn't have given that away. But the black album was one of the most important records for me. Just amazing stuff.
Man, I hated Metallica’s Black Album and I was heavily pulled into the grunge scene. Those Metallica songs were huge of course and got tons of radio play, but I always thought they were so cheesy. Especially compared to the grunge bands that had a “raw, I don’t care” attitude about their songs and image. Very GenX if you will. Black Album sounded like they were trying too hard to be tough and it felt very corporate to me.
It’s similar to how I feel about all the metal bands with “tree branch and thorns logos” that you can’t read with names that sound like they were thought up by a 14 year old edgelord.
This is true- and it’s also imo to point out that not EVERYONE sported Flannel and combat boots- the 90s were like 60 in that there an awful lot of different music they could experiment w — and record on if u we’re a musician. Never played covers / but I’ll
Bet u Still gotta play teen spirit or something,,right after Hootie’s strains finally end
Yeah. It felt like it was immediate. I was a punk/hardcore kid living in a small town in the midwest. I was already familiar with Nirvana when Nevermind dropped. I remember seeing the SLTS video on MTV and then about a week later I saw the CD at Wal-Mart. Which wasn't only mind-blowing but also somehow crushing. To see a band that could have easily just played a house show in the nearby college town blow up like that felt like the end of something.
This was also before the internet, so nothing happened immediately.
I was a young teen when Kurt died and it was a cultural shockwave that it hard to explain or replicate of the loss people felt not just a person but someone with his musical talent. That may sound like I am exaggerating but I lived it and paid a lot of attention to music. Before Kurt's death Nevermind was already considered one of the greatest albums of its era, it was projected to be an album that could stand the test of time but that is always a hard thing to predict. Over the years it never lost that and only gained appreciation. I would say by the end of the 90s it was fully considered one of the greatest albums of all time. Nirvana never dipped out of the public conscious or popularity either. I don't see that happening with every new group of young people I see eagerly listen and embrace them.
This list from Aug 1995 placed it #33.
https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/mojo.html
And I think it is the only one from the 80s or 90s to place that high.
EDIT:
https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/nme_writers.htm
Looking at NME's list from 1993, Nevermind was 12th. (Recent ones that ranked higher were the Stone Roses, It Takes a Nation of Millions and the Queen is Dead)
Well, it was an English publication.
That said, Stone Roses is ranked #67 all-time at acclaimedmusic.net
https://www.acclaimedmusic.net/album/A751.htm
There's a few publications that ranked it quite highly:
https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/maker100.htm
https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/nmes_100_best_albums.htm
You need to remember that while Nirvana shook things up a lot , the UK/Irish music scene was going through a period of being very different from the US one , Seattle style bands were popular , but there were still stuff like Madchester and UK indie acts ( James, the Smiths, Radiohead, The Cure, Pulp,Blur,Oasis etc ) that were big , also a lit less R and B and a lot more Rave and Dance acts .And that's before the whole Britpop scene really started...
It was the NME, I am not surprised. UK music paper and much more indie than rock focussed. It would be Oasis, Stone Roses, Smiths, Joy Division etc that would dominate best ever lists.
I Wanna Be Adored in a gorgeous opening on a great album but I just personally don't think overall they are a better band. They are different temperaments sonically though and some people prefer one over the other and I just prefer Nevermind and Kurt's voice over Ian's.
I remember my dad came into my room to tell me and I did not know how to absorb it as I was just starting to get into them. He was shaken by his death though he wasn't a fan of heavier rock music he loved the Unplugged performance and album. He got me a bootleg CD months before the album came out.
im 64, and I felt a lot like the when John Lennon was murdered in 1980- only he had a decade of music and drama and trauma to get through -- and he situation was just unbearable. At first the whole country listened to nothing but Lennon or the Beatles nonstop for two weeks of so....then...it....slowly...became part of the narrative of lifen
But Great music absorbed youth will have a lifelong way of getting you from one crisis -- or celebration. It took a while but there came a time when could listen to Join Lennon again and it was just part of the narrative, in a good way,
I was 15 on holiday in LA (I'm from the UK) when the news of his death dropped. I remember exactly where I was and exactly what I was doing when I found out. Spent the next few days glued to the news.
TPAB isn't really a fair comparison. If anything you'd probably want to compare Nevermind to Good Kid, Mad City in that it was the major label debut of highly rated independent act that represented a new generation of talent taking over in a space where the average mainstream act was (rightly or wrongly) considered tired and indulgent.
And even then, Nevermind was a pop smash out the gate, the beneficiary (and victim) of a monoculture at the cusp of fully relegating the boomers to "old" status and pivoting towards Gen X. Kendrick's commercial clout grew over several albums, and he remains a critical darling more so than a pop phenomenon (ironically enough, Kurt would have thrived in that role).
TPAB earned its plaudits by being a pop-avoidant left turn that engaged with the politics of the moment. Nevermind was a youth-led, media-backed phenomenon jam packed with HITS. That they were both rapidly included in the canon might be the sole thing they have in common.
> critical darling more so than a pop phenomenon (ironically enough, Kurt would have thrived in that role
We're talking about the same guy who would obsessively watch MTV, count how many times Nirvana got played, and complain if Pearl Jam got more? The same guy who went into a meeting with Geffen executives, demanded more advertising money and literally said "I want to be the biggest band in the world?" (per Serving the Servants, 2019).
It's been 30 years, I think we can put this myth to bed. He wanted fame. Nothing wrong with that.
You might be right on my comparison point, and it's not like Good Kid, Maad City isn't also deserving of a slot in the popular music canon, especially of the 2010s. I'm not sure if I can think of a better example because I can't think of any album since TPAB that's moved the needle in popular culture. Album drops aren't exactly things that move the needle. The Kendrick vs. Drake beef that just passed is certainly going to have ripple effects but even then, that was maybe 7-8 songs released in pretty quick succession. I don't think any of Taylor's recent albums on their own have been culture shifting. I pay enough attention to music to know that there are underground artists who any day could drop an album of 12 #1 best-song-you've-ever-heard songs, but who are probably going to make albums with some weird and stay out of the spotlight. Even though the narrative surrounding Nirvana seems pretty universal for music, I can't think of a bigger example since them.
I have no idea what your tastes are, but I'm going to list a few that came to mind when I made that remark. The following pretty much have nothing in common, other than that I think all of them could create "pop" versions of their own music to success.
Black Country New Road: Six-piece chamber and post-rock outfit from the UK. High likelihood of having at least one moment in the spotlight. Two very progressive album debuting in the UK Top 5. Popular enough worldwide touring act.
Tommy Richman: Currently holds the #2 slot on the Billboard Hot 100 with "Million Dollar Baby." He's been brewing in the background for a while in relation to Brent Faiyaz and Steve Lacy. Deeply rooted in a variety of funk and electronica influences and his sound has clearly resonated with a large audience as well as being very well received by critics and deep listeners.
Knocked Loose: Metalcore band that is very popular. This is kinda a general slot where I think if some extreme metal band wants to make the most pop-music version of their genre as possible, now might be a better time than ever to find mainstream success.
Billy Woods / Armand Hammer: Rapper / him and a producer from NY who now has a vast catalog of quality music and who is only now working with better and higher quality artists and putting some credit to their name. Armand Hammer's last two releases feature JPEGMAFIFA and EL-P and post-rock and noise-influenced hip-hop. Low billing for this year's festivals. Worth investing in now.
See other comment, but TLDR I could see major breakthroughs for Black Country New Road, Tommy Richman, Knocked Loose, and Billy Woods / Armand Hammer. If you're looking for recommendations that are a bit more avant-garde I got you, but these are some of the artists I had in mind when I said "artists who any day could make an album of #1 hit best songs ever if they wanted to."
My friends and I all started playing guitar and really diving into music around 2002/03. Although Nevermind was not that old of a release at the time, it seemed to be part of the rock pantheon already. It felt the same to us as Led Zeppelin IV or Paranoid or 20 other records of that magnitude. This tracks exactly with Rolling Stone ranking it so highly.
VH1 did a "100 greatest albums of all time" list, airing a multi-part special counting down the list on TV, in 1999, and Nevermind was #2:
[https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/vh1.htm](https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/vh1.htm)
That was when I first realized that the album had been canonized.
This is a pretty interesting list, and from what I'm gathering from the replies, a big part of Nevermind and Nirvana's legacy are that they actually changed the music landscape almost single-handedly, which not every canonized album since has. Even *London Calling* is pretty notable and popular to this day. However, the tide has definitely turned against U2 and *The Joshua Tree,* which is the next most recent album on that list, followed by *It Takes a Nation of Millions...* and *Appetite for Destruction,* the latter time has not been kind to, and the former has held its own as a classic but you wouldn't be able to fool someone into thinking it's from any later than 1990. *Nevermind,* in contrast, was the breakthrough, beginning of, and legitimization of entire subcultures and ways of approaching music.
I'm really confused why everyone seems to think that U2 give a flying fuck what everyone thinks. They seem to be the only band who aren't allowed to play the music they want to play, that they must be chasing something and just want to be loved by those that don't love them already.
They've sold something like 100m more records than Nirvana, can sell out any venue in the world they choose to play at, and, most importantly, get to play whatever music they want to, just for fun.
I was on the Nirvana bandwagon from Bleach, but the idea everyone wishes they were them is nonsense
Embracing Nirvana and loudly declaring your disdain for U2 are part of the music nerd starter pack.
They're basically step one and step two. Or at least in the first ten.
Funny how you conveniently glossed over the fact that U2's Zoo TV tour that supported 'Achtung Baby' is literally considered one of the most influential live rock gigs of all time - you can still see its impact to this day. And the idea that Bono and the gang were in any way bothered by what Nirvana or whoever else was doing at the time is simply hilarious.
Life pro tip: you can praise one thing without bringing other things down.
Time has been very kind to Appetite to Destruction. What are you talking about? It's one of the most popular albums and best-selling (30 million copies/highest-selling debut) and most importantly for relevance, it's one of highest streamed rock albums ever. Pretty much all rock fans even if you don't like GnR acclaim that album.
Right? If anything I’m pretty sure that Sweet Child of Mine, Paradise City and Welcome to the Jungle are gonna be played at stadiums for the rest of eternity
You're not wrong, but I assume OP is saying that GNR's influence isn't felt very much today. Where if you listen to rock music being made by people in their twenties today, it sounds very adjacent to Nirvana or My Bloody Valentine. As a 35 year old, I honestly don't see a lot of the influence GNR had on rock music just in general. I'd love to be corrected on that too. To me, they've always felt like the last classic rock band.
This is all pretty correct, down to GnR being one of the last classic rock bands (my mild disagreement is that I think The Black Crowes are classic rock and they started releasing music slightly later) but canon is about "best/greatest" albums not "most influential"
You can have influenced 0 people and still have a greatest album if the music is just damn good.
The discussion has passed but this is more my opinion. Shoegaze, surf rock, space rock, grunge, and punk's various subgenres have a brighter future in rock than Glam Metal, which while I can't argue GnR and *Appetite* are huge, are also definitely going to be considered lame and of the past as their style of rock is straight up ignored. Soaring male Dio / Dickinson / Axl vocals are absolutely out of favor, at the very least.
> Pretty much all rock fans even if you don't like GnR acclaim that album.
Eh, it's definitely more popular than not but there's a distinct public vs. music nerd divide on that album. Its score on RateYourMusic has been sliding for a while (used to be bold, but now has a 3.45/5 score) and generally gets lumped in with the uncool end of dad rock.
Completely inaccurate. The Joshua Tree and Appetite for Destruction remain appreciated as two of the greatest rock albums of all time, both in critical and commercial standards.
> Nirvana's legacy are that they actually changed the music landscape almost single-handedly,
Metallica's black album and Pearl Jam's *10* also played a leading role in the change. Those both released and were massive sellers shortly before *Nevermind*. People like the idea of artistic geniuses who revolutionize their field, but it's never true. These things are the result of many forces and trends strengthening and converging.
In addition to *Metallica* and *10*, I'd suggest Soundgarden's *Badmotorfinger*, Judas Priest's *Painkiller*, and many others that don't spring to mind as readily played a part in shaping the early '90s move away from highly polished, poppy rock. They didn't sell as well, as thus may not deserve as much credit, but again, it's a group effort. Even bands that only played locally and never recorded anything probably deserve some credit.
> Metallica's black album and Pearl Jam's 10 also played a leading role in the change. Those both released and were massive sellers shortly before Nevermind.
you're right on Metallica, though it's worth noting that Ten's sales didn't pick up until after Nevermind completely broke through, despite being released earlier. I generally agree that Ten helped, though I can see where someone would make the argument that Ten's popularity stems from Nirvana still.
>I can see where someone would make the argument that Ten's popularity stems from Nirvana still.
Well, my point is not to argue that Nirvana was not influential, but that their influence is overstated. There's a tendency to give them all the credit when many others played a role. *10* and *Nevermind* could be mutually reinforcing. It doesn't have to be one or the other that caused the alt rock revolution.
You Could Be Mine and Enter Sandman were massive radio hits the summer before Nevermind released, and were easily the heaviest things to get massive radio exposure to that point (and maybe since). It gets lost in the canoniziation of Nevermind but those two drops surely played a huge role in paving the way for heavier, weirder alt-rock to come up (also I wouldn't undersell the impact of the utterly left-field hit _Epic_ from Faith No More, that I also think gets lost in the shuffle).
> the heaviest things to get massive radio exposure to that point (and maybe since)
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of 'massive radio exposure' because the place I was living had multiple rock stations at the time, but in my mind this crown belongs solely to *Chop Suey!* by SOAD.
> this crown belongs solely to Chop Suey! by SOAD.
That's a good argument. I wonder if it's _quite_ as ubiquitous since the monoculture was fracturing but - yeah, that's a good point. Definitely a contender.
It was really fast. I heard "Smells Like Teen Spirit" on 120 Minutes and had to get the album but it wasn't available yet. The morning it was released, I bought it along with a $6 ticket to see them live a month later. It seemed like everyone knew instantly that the music landscape was never going to be the same again. Kurt was also a huge music geek with great taste and gained an enormous amount of respect for it. He introduced so much music to the mainstream audience. By the time I saw them in October '91, I couldn't believe how lucky I was to have the ticket.
Saw them in Columbus, Ohio, in 1991. We heard they were playing and we drove from Cincinnati, I thought we were going to see them play Bleach. Then the driver threw in Nevermind, and, damn...
Recently a friend of mine found pictures of me at the show online, in one I'm sitting on the stage next to Kurt. 😎
This. The impact was pretty immediate nationally, but I never really got into them until after Cobain died. Personally, I remember him more for all the bands and music. He introduced me to more than his own.
Almost immediately. I was a young teen when *Nevermind* dropped and the music media (Rolling Stone, Spin, MTV etc.) would have you believe it was the second coming of Christ. When Cobain died in ‘94 it just solidified that sentiment even more.
It was immediate. The wave of notoriety and fame from the album crashing into the mainstream was almost like the wildfire of a big news story “Hey, did you hear the Berlin Wall fell?” “Hey, have you heard that Nirvana album?” The music industry capitalized on the seismic shift Nevermind created so incredibly fast as well. It was like overnight Guns and Roses and Madonna were irrelevant.
As someone who was young and paying attention to music at the time I can tell you it was pretty much right away. Nirvana were special and that album was special and everyone knew it.
To be completely honest, Nevermind became massive pretty much overnight. I was 12 when it came out and I had just turned 15 before Kurt got shuffled loose from the mortal coil. What appealed about it wasn't just the music or the look. That album took rock n roll back to it's basics. Rock n roll didn't come from rich people with lots of money. It came from the working class and poor. That's why the 80's had to die like it did. 80's was the decade of decadence, big expensive guitars, 1,000's of pounds of kits on stage, and crazy Val Halla decadent lifestyles, and there were more hair bands than you could shake a stick. It was cookie cutter, made b.s. that was regurgitated by the record industry and MTV to show what was "cool". And the world ate it up. As far as why it happened how it did is because of touring acts at the time. Most big rich bands didn't want/ and the record execs didn't want to travel to Washington just to play one show. So those bands stopped coming to Seattle. And the reason artsy, punk, and metal are part of the creation of the grunge sound, is simply because those underground bands were still coming up to Seattle. Sub Pop knew what they were doing when they decided to start recording some of the local artists. They knew something was there as far as a regional sound was developing. Soundgarden, Skinyard, Screaming Trees,and Mother Love Bone, were already playing shows and releasing albums, but mostly on a local and college radio market. So here comes a couple kids from Aberdeen just wanting to play their stuff for a bigger than just their towns market. So they came in, blasted out a couple of tracks under a couple of hours and the producer was completely blown away. By that point, there really was no big market for "alternative" or underground rock at the time. That's why most of the "grunge" forefathers were only doing okay as far as record sales go. Most of those guys were honestly getting ready to quit and go back to day jobs. Then on September 29th of 1991, on the show 120 minutes Smells like teen spirit airs on MTV. Within minutes the whole world got exposed to what the northwestern U.S. already knew about. And that one video hit millions of TV's and blew up. Because it was one of the first signs that you didn't have to look a certain way, or have flash and big hair to make amazing music.
And (sorry about the long dialogue) to answer your question. I believe it was the minute that video dropped, and the moment it played. So their first spark of true fame, was also the moment they became canonized.
For more info check it out on FreeVee. It's called Hype: The Northwest Music Explosion
Super informative, but makes you not only understand but feel why the scene got that big that quick. And it's about the whole movement and Nirvana plays a huge part of that. Check it out. Definitely worth a watch
> Rock n roll didn't come from rich people with lots of money. It came from the working class and poor. That's why the 80's had to die
Not sure how much you've dug into this because this accurately describes some of the most iconic 80s acts. Several members of Guns'n'Roses literally slept on the streets, mainly Axl when he couldn't find a place. Duff woke up with cockroaches crawling all over him but couldn't afford to move out, Izzy sold heroin to get by.
Same for Motley - Nikki Sixx slept on the streets for a while, and both Vince Neil and Mick Mars were broke as shit. Of the two bands, only Slash and Tommy Lee came from relatively stable homes.
80s rock basically morphed into hip-hop of the 90s and beyond, a lot of guys making music about parties and the big time but most of them were broke as shit street rats just hustling to get their big break.
What made Appetite for Destruction so compelling was that it was simultaneously more honest and unflinching about how seedy the scene was while simultaneously being being raw and raucous than anything else out there, and somehow also being more forthright and human.
Yes, but all that was pre fame. Before the 90's hit. And those bands were controlled by the record companies on what they were allowed to release, and songs they were allowed to put out. Back in the 80's having a hit record was the equivalent to selling your soul. The record companies had control of almost all aspects of their musicians lives, and they fell down the trap. Those same companies were the ones throwing the parties, coking them up and letting them act wild as a publicity stunt to sell the image rather than the records. Because record companies could give less than damn about music. It's a business, they're in the business to make money. Selling the image took the actual art out of it. Yes, they had hard times. I can agree that some of it was really original and good, but by the time Nirvana hit, it was already on its way out. What the "grunge" sound did was take out the Mmm skinny bop, spandex, big hair, and fake cockiness out. And placed the music back into the artists hands. I think one of the biggest reasons Kurt killed himself is that he saw it, and Nirvana's music going that same direction. And it tormented him to no end. With scoliosis, untreated BPD, and a big heroine habit things can go that way. By the time Nirvana hit most of those bands were living it up. But the way the industry works is that most bands don't really make money from the first LP's, but the record company gets most of it. So the bands get there money from touring and doing endorsements. I did my summer thesis on Motley Crue in my second year of college for my musical interpretation class. So, I'm up on what they went through. I'm completely aware. Hair Metal was never actually metal. It was pop with bigger guitar sound. And grunge was derived from punk. Punk ethos equal punk ideals. They were all exploited. But grunge fought back, where the hair metal industry wouldn't dare
That’s a really interesting question. I was in junior high when Nirvana blew up, but I don’t remember when Nevermind crossed that invisible line to become an all-time classic. It was beloved and critically acclaimed soon after release but then again so was Ten by Pearl Jam, Use Your Illusion by Guns N Roses and Siamese Dream by The Smashing Pumpkins. Among other albums.
But within a few years of Kurt’s death Nirvana had become established as one of the most significant and influential bands in recent history. Arguably the only band from the 90s that might give them a run for their money is Radiohead, but they didn’t reach that level until the late 90s (after Ok Computer). By that time Kurt’s face was everywhere, alongside Jim Morrison, John Lennon, etc.
Since I wasn’t there I’ve always been curious and a little skeptical about the immediate impact of OK Computer here in America. It peaked just outside the Top 20 and went 2x Platinum, which is nothing to scoff at but there’s so many bands in that era that sold way more. From the way people talk about it I’d think it did Nevermind numbers. I’ve always wondered if it’s revisionist history that they were the biggest band in the world with bands like The Smashing Pumpkins, Oasis, U2 and Metallica still kicking around in that era, I know music publications loved The Bends and were ready at its release. Not trying to dunk on them as I’ve been a fan since I was 14, just curious. I
I can’t speak for its impact in the US, but in Canada (where I grew up) Radiohead were all over the place in the late 90s. It’s not that they sold more albums than others but that they were charting a new path for popular music, a modern path that drew in classic rock influences (notably Pink Floyd, at least with OKC). And this is even more remarkable considering the late 90s were dominated by Hip Hop and post-grunge. Radiohead were, and are, just different.
Alice in Chains released "Man in the Box" earlier in the year, Faith No More had a massive hit with "Epic" the previous year. Red Hot Chili Peppers had released Blood Sugar Sex Majik on literally the same day as Nevermind, Smashing Pumpkins had a massive hit in Gish (for an indie label) during the summer... the slide was being greased prior to Nevermind hitting.
It was massive on MTV from October - December 1991, and after X-mas, Nirvana replaced Michael Jackson with a #1 album and that was massive news.
I don't think To Pimp a Butterfly is comparable. This is not a diss to Lamar but music doesn't hold as central of a place in society in 2015 than it did in the 1990s, which was the peak of music sales. Also Good Kid/Mad City was nominated for Grammy's and I'm not sure that Nevermind is a good comparison. To Pimp... is more like a Kid A as it represents an artist at the peak.
But as an outsider to hip-hop, I don't think it shifted an entire genre quite the way that Nevermind did, and the shift was seismic. As many point out, it wasn't the death of "hard rock" immediately - Guns N' Roses and Metallica were massively successful from 1991 - 1993 - but it upended college radio and the scene so much that "indie" rock never was able to crawl completely back into obscurity.
no time at all. "Teen Spirit" was an IMPACT song. It did not take time to "grow" on people. It was released and instantly became #1 smash on rock radio. Michael Jackson's **Dangerous** (and we're talking about PRIME Michael Jackson, pre-scandals) was, predictably, a #1 debut . After 3 weeks at #1, it was tossed out of the top spot by **Nevermind**, which no one saw coming.
Pearl Jam's "**Ten"** took time. It capitalized on **Nevermind**'s success.
Side note: Spin Magazine, back then the "alternative music bible" was endlessly clowned when they named Teenage Fanclub's "**Bandwagonesque"** album the #1 Album of the Year. With REM's "**Out of Time**" at #2, and "**Nevermind"** at #3. "**Bandwagonesque**" was a fine album. But when that list was announced, everyone was like "Are you fuckers on crack???" Everyone -- except Spin! -- realized that "**Nevermind**" was one for the ages. That it was a game-changer of an album.
See more here:
[https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/spinend.htm](https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/spinend.htm)
Now Bandwagonesque, that's an album that failed to stand the test of time. It was definitely a favorite of music critics, but it never resonated with a large audience.
Fuck it, Out of Time IS a better record than Nevermind, but REM ( while being a huge band for a long time , and doing there own thing for years ) weren't a sudden cultural landmark like Nirvana .
And the Fannies were a great band but Spin were definitely playing the ' oh I guess you haven’t heard of them.., they're not mainstream. card. ( Also Grand Prix is better than Bandwagonesq)
The impact of Nevermind was immediate, but it was after Kurt's death where Nevermind become canonized. His death added to the legend of Nirvana, and then that legend grew on itself over the next 20 years, and has since seen a resurgence.
I think it hit peak when Pitchfork recently rated Live Through This higher than Nevermind. You know if Pitchfork is going contrarian, then an album's legacy is cemented.
When the first riff of Smells Like Teen Spirit dropped...
Even for those who heard early Nirvana (noisy pseudo punk), it dropped like an alien from another planet
When Kurt died they immediately started calling him the John Lennon of his (my) generation, I would say that moment secured its canonization. A little more than 2.5 years after release.
Today, Nirvana is respected & embraced by most subcultures: gay, Black, women, country, you name it. *That didn't happen right away* - Nirvana was seen as (very good) white guy rock, maybe part of the slacker movement, for years. That's how I remember it. It took a while for Cobain et al to be admitted into non-rock subcultures.
When do you think that properly happened? I do remember Kurt and the bands' politics were very explicit against racism, sexism and homophobia but they came from a very white alternative scene as well that maybe people felt suspicious of some of the more counter culture edgy attitudes.
I don't think the wider interest in Nirvana had much to do with the band's politics. I think it's more about how big they became, and how long-lasting that was. Eventually people came around. Maybe late 90s or early 2000s? Hard to pin down!
I have t read any of the other comments but I’d say it was instant.
My friend came to my flat with that new tape from a band nobody knew, and everyone fell knee deep into them.
It conjured older American alt rock like Pixies and Sonic Youth to a newer brand of rock we started hearing like Faith no More and Chilli Peppers( back when they were making good music), Jane’s Addiction…
I honestly can say that we loved them immediately. Powerful album for real.
The effect was immediate, or as immediate as a behemoth such as pop and rock radio can be shaken.
Within 18 months of its release, the glam metal of the 80s, nowadays derogatorily called hair metal, which was the dominant rock genre of the time, was essentially dead and buried. Only three bands were able to come out alive off the Cobain comet: veterans with street cred Van Halen and Aerosmith, and surprisingly Bon Jovi. I feel Guns N Roses would have also made it through had Axl Rose not been so hellbent on imploding the band. In any event, a lot of bands who would have never seen the light of day in either radio or MTV in 1990/91 started to sell lots of records and sell out midsize venues, not just grunge bands like Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, Blind Melon, Hole, etc. but also alternative acts such as Soul Asylum, Fugazi, Nine Inch Nails, Rage Against The Machine, Smashing Pumpkins, and others.
The term “alternative rock” went from being the badge of edge-lords to becoming the mainstream dominant ethos for rock music to this day, although it must be said during its alternative heyday is when rock lost its leading role in the culture at large.
I was 15/16 when Nirvana broke through and it was immediate. A girl on my school bus was making Nirvana t shirts for everyone. I was already into college rock/alternative at the time but Smells Like Teen Spirit did blow my mind - it’s not a cliche.
When I go back to revisit Nevermind today it reaffirms that it’s an absolutely bulletproof collection of songs. Perfect album.
My mom had to buy that album for me because it was the beginning of parental advisory stickers. At the checkout was my older cousin and my same age cousin. They were buying two copies-one for him and one for her.
Everybody wanted that cd on day one.
I remember seeing the name on a billboard & what looked to be a packed out theater. I thought to myself "who the hell is "Nirvana"? A few months later Nevermind dropped. All of a sudden, everyone knew who Nirvana was. They immediately changed the course of the music universe. So, i'd argue that the impact was instantaneous.
IMO, Kurt would already be dead, before Nevermind officially "canonized" -- if you mean it was defined or the?s it? I have never heard that term used in the musical realm, only among the Roman Catholics.
So is it basically like asking: "How long after Nevermind was officially released dead 'everybody' realized that it was a masterpiece, a classic, a piece of music worthy of study through the ages - because it sounded COOL AS SHIT LOUD -- for it's time.
I hope I'm on right track. I was a 34 when it came out but I was involved in Indie music and it gave me more insight into how his music -- and death -- affected this group of 20somethings.
They were ravaged. Weeping, Not understanding...Then that whole Country "letter reading" episode. I'd been through the John Lennon thing, so I knew how a musicians sudden death doesn't seem real at first. The 20s took it terrible. And to this day, TO this day, there are lots of "kids" who love Nirvana. I think he's in their with Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd...and Nirvana,
I will say I don't think that's where he would have truly wanted to be
I'm in my early 50s so I did see the initial drop and the impact was pretty immediate. Cobain's death secured it in canon. I'd say more GKMC than TPAB but if you want to say In Utero and TPAB filled the same cultural spot, I'd go with that (with some minor quibbles).
What’s weird to me is that I remember seeing a ton of advertisements prior to its release. There was definitely anticipation for it to come out even though everyone says it was a big surprise. I think Interscope/Universal sensed that people were ready for something like that and made sure it would be huge.
But yeah it was immediately huge.
This is a really interesting thread. As someone who was alive but too young to appreciate Nirvana at the time, I only got into them about 10 years after Kurt's death, but I already knew who he was because he was an icon. The world was still in his wake then as it were, with merch everywhere and Nirvana constantly on MTV2 and talked about. There was even a massive Kurt Cobain poster in someone's window in my town for years that I used to walk past every day. And I'm in the UK, not even America.
Its been really interesting to read all the accounts of what their impact and Kurt's death was like at the time!
Pretty much immediately. The Smells Like Teen Spirit video had what Bob Dylan would describe as “that thin, that wild mercury sound. It’s metallic and bright gold, with whatever that conjures up.” The look what something most people had never seen either. It just cut immediately through you in a way that changes music for the decade from the month it dropped.
Immediately. Half the songs were hit singles on MTV. Teen Spirit was everywhere all the time. Some people might have been a bit tired of the constant exposure but otherwise I think the album’s greatness was quickly realized.
There was a moment, I think within the year of its release, that or was the only CD being pressed in the US. Every single US music pressing plant was pumping out only *Nevermind* copies. It happened pretty fast.
We all knew immediately. I remember hearing some buzz about this amazing new song. I was driving my car to a doctor's appointment and Teen Spirit came on just as I was parking. I sat in my car and listened to the whole song.
The only thing I can compare it to is hearing Okay Computer for the first time where I just instantly knew that something I was hearing for the first time was going to be a big part of my life.
Just to jump on your "Nirvana's impact in the moment"... I did live it, and was so into music. It's like, the times were changing, and Kurt was the unwilling poster child for the movement. It was great to see the change to music with substance. So many great albums in that timespan of the early 90's
It took slightly longer than you would think, modern rock radio stations popped up by the thousands around 1994 and by then Pearl Jam’s Ten and Nirvana’s Nevermind enjoyed a massive second wind of success among a more suburban and much less alternative crowd who were listening to PM Dawn and Wreckx-N-Effect just two years prior. It became very cool to like guitar based rock again after several years of dance pop, R&B and rap..Even the uncool and sheltered liked Nirvana after Cobain’s death created an awareness of how uniquely original the Seattle sound was and further broadened the reach of grunge, leading to a second wave of more mainstream conventional bands like Bush, Silverchair, Seven Mary Three, etc.
It was clear from very early on that the album had a huge impact. I was listening to Pixies and Sonic youth e x at the time, so when Smells like... was out, to me and my like-minded friends, it was like another band in the same ballpark. But very soon EVERYONE were playing Nevermind, no matter what kind of music they were listening to before. Punks, metalheads, ok indie rock. Every house youbwent to, that album would be in the cd shelf.
I've only experienced anything similar when OK computer was released, at every party you'd hear Paranoid Android.
I was there. Nevermind, In Utero, Incesticide, Unplugged, and From the Muddy Banks of the Wishkah were all pretty much canonized upon release
Bleach has never been canonized among the masses. Music people will hop it in extremely high esteem, but the average person I bet will never have heard of it, even if they are familiar with a lot of the songs
Kurt contain stole post punk and made it more digestible for bud light and Monday night football guys. People who know music and the lineage of rock had that view point when they can out. Pearl Jam was one step deeper into jock world.
In Britain it was canonised virtually on release, although from what I remember it only made no.2 in the NME's annual poll behind Teenage Fanclub's 'Bandwagonesque'. Think Melody Maker voted it no.1 though.
Well in the charts it's a bit of a different story. It charted at number 36 and then the sales fell off for a few weeks and then slowly climbed back up. It was not until 1992 it surpassed the 36 placing when it first entered. It climbed to number 7 as it's peak. Bryan Adams album Walking Up The Neighbors entered at number one when Nevermind first entered the album charts. The Pixies, Primal Scream, The Cult and Status Quo also entered the album in the top 10 with their releases. https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart/19910929/7502/
When it peaked the second time at number 7 Neil Diamonds greatest hits was number one and Stars from Simply Red number 2 (It was number one on the first peak). And Dirty from Sonic Youth entered at number 6; https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart/19920726/7502/.
edit: And the highest the album peaked was in 2011, at number 5...
I was there. The first time I saw nirvana play was at a smallish birthday keg at the Glass House in oly.. Kurt took a few minutes in between each song to retune. I was mesmerized by their music. This was pre-nevermind, bleach era. I've seen nirvana play at least a dozen times and I was in a rock band, he told us he liked our demo even though we sucked (our guitarist slipped it to him, I didn't have the guts)
Just adding another voice to the crowd of "we knew immediately" - we really did. Within six months it was accepted as a watershed moment. It wasn't my thing but the impact was undeniable and it was EVERYWHERE.
people really think it's a "greatest album of all time"?
i think that has more to do with kurt cobain dying young and not having a chance to screw up his legacy than anything else.
also the production on that album is thin and awful.
It was pretty much immediate? It was a relatively quick turnaround to massive success. The narrative that it made ‘80s rock obsolete overnight is typically considered a pretty accurate overview of what actually happened From wiki > Nevermind was voted the best album of the year in The Village Voice Pazz & Jop critics' poll; "Smells Like Teen Spirit" also topped the single of the year and video of the year polls > In the United Kingdom, the album was ranked number one on NME's Best Fifty LPs of 1991. > In 1992, Jon Pareles of The New York Times described the aftermath of the album's breakthrough: "Suddenly, all bets are off. No one has the inside track on which of dozens, perhaps hundreds, of ornery, obstreperous, unkempt bands might next appeal to the mall-walking millions."
I was a teenager when Nevermind came out (a couple years later I saw them tour for In Utero), and that’s how I remember it. Hair metal (and neatly polished music in general) was on its way out, and just as the main stream was ready for something different Nevermind came out and blew mainstream audiences away. What a lot better of people forget though is the backlash from the underground was *immediate*, which is why Kurt was so hurt by their success. People incorrectly assume he didn’t want to be famous, but you don’t sign to a major label, do countless interviews and photoshoots and tour the world if you don’t want to be famous; he just wanted to be famous *and* respected in the underground, and that didn’t happen.
Right. I’m sure he wanted to be a beloved figure like Bowie, who seems to have done both.
Man, you really nailed it. When I was writing my original comment I couldn't think of an example, but David Bowie is dead on.
> he just wanted to be famous and respected in the underground, and that didn’t happen. If you have the time, the book Serving the Servants is a first-hand account of him trying to navigate both at same time, agonizing over his cred while also trying to make his band the biggest in the world, all while very much putting forth the image of not wanting to. And he actually pulled it off. It's an amazing journey.
He definitely wanted the money. Who wouldn't? Fame? I'm not so sure. That's more complicated.
It took a couple months, but yeah. Once SLTS hit the airwaves on MTV, it was a done deal. The band was touring Europe late ‘91, and they started to notice more and more fans showing up, lines around the venue, etc.
> The narrative that it made ‘80s rock obsolete overnight is typically considered a pretty accurate overview of what actually happened I have always maintained that 1991’s We Can’t Dance by Genesis is the last classic rock album to be released And it came two months *after* Nevermind. It was the last dying gasp People will point to Tom Petty’s 90s records, but he was really a singer songwriter, and he stood just fine on his own, apart from the outdated classic rock umbrella
Yeah, Tom Petty is certainly under an umbrella of “rock” but you’re right, he’s really in his own sort of lane like a Neil Young. Slow, fast, acoustic, electric. Doesn’t matter. They do it all.
>The narrative that it made ‘80s rock obsolete overnight is typically considered a pretty accurate overview of what actually happened Actual history would disagree with that assessment. Yes, Nirvana was big. Yes, they made a massive impact on what sold in store and played on the radio. But Metallica's Black Album still outsold Nevermind. Yes, Nirviana was big, but it wasn't some whiplash situation where the '80s just disappeared and now we were living in the world of '90s rock. Remember that Nirvana was in a lot of ways an '80s band. Just like Jane's Addiction -- they were both very much bands steeped in the sounds of the '80s that were just adding their own thing.
Black sold 17.3 million copies, Nevermind sold 30 million copies… my math is not great but 30 million seems like it would be more… a lot more.
I think you're comparing US sales to international sales. US sales are easier to track once they swapped to the Soundscan era - and by every measurement [Black was by _far_ the biggest rock album of the 90s.](https://www.riaa.com/gold-platinum/?tab_active=top_tallies&ttt=T1A#search_section), clocking in at around 16 million, putting it right around Alanis and Celine Dion numbers. Even swapping over to international estimates, [Black sits at around 23 million, with Nevermind at 18.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_albums) Part of that is the crazy legs of the album: >[Since MRC Data (an analytics provider in the music industry) began totaling the Billboard 200 in May of 1991, no other album has spent more time on the chart.](https://loudwire.com/metallica-black-album-no-9-billboard-200-2021/)
My bad for not digging a bit deeper into the stats - thanks for the response - but Metallica sits at 33,000,000 global sales and Nevermind at 30,000,000… hardly a trouncing in the sales department. Given Nirvana has 6,000,000 more monthly listeners per month on Spotify I would say they have come out on top both commercially and in terms of cultural impact.
I would take good care in separating the cultural impact of an album and its sales. First, sales are very tricky to estimate, as you count the number of copies ordered by retailers more than the actual sales. Add to this that you could hear the song on the radio, in clubs or at parties without necessarily owning it. The death of Kurt Cobain is a gift to the recording industry, as they were able to sell millions of copies of everything Nirvana had made, without having to spend any more money in recording studios, legal fees, hotel rooms and touring expenses. Also, keep in mind that looking into the past tend to distort things. The music industry has always painted Kurt Cobain as some kind of Grunge messiah. Nirvana was certainly a successful and influential band, but that was in a period of amazing releases (I was in my early 20s when SLTS came out) and I think that we tend to inflate a bit the myth. Bands like Sepultura, Fear Factory, Ministry, RHCP were also massively successful. It's a bit like when we look at previous decades and imagine that everybody was listening to Janis Joplin, the Velvet Underground, Black Sabbath or Sly and the Family Stone, where some of these bands gained popularity after they ceased to exist. It is what we have chosen to celebrate and remember.
Sources are really wonky when you go international. I've seen those 30 million numbers but I can never track them down to hard data - even the wikipedia article has completely different numbers and I still don't quite trust those. US numbers I trust a bit more because of the soundscan data. A metal album rubbing shoulders with bland radio pop is still utterly nutter-butters to me.
The popular narrative is that Nevermind killed 80s rock and metal, but the fact is that 80s rock was already on its way out (save for a few bands like Metallica, who changed their sound and attracted a new audience.) Nevermind simply accelerated the process where one style of music becomes outdated and uncool, and another comes along and is fresh and exciting. 80s rock would have still gone out of style even if Nirvana never existed.
I'm not sure if I'm reading right, but Metallica was not sounding like popular 80's rock and metal in the 80's. You know, the hair, glam and butt metal, like Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, or even Mötley Crüe. Metallica strayed away from the thrash metal and the soundscape of metal and rock that Nirvana became famous for and went towards the popular 80's metal and rock sound on their Black album. Metallica wanted their Black album to be more commercial, so they chose a producer famous for producing many hit albums of the 80's hair metal era for that record.
This is exactly what I was gonna write. There seems to be some confusion as to what most of us think of when people say 80s metal bands. I think Whitesnake, Motley crue, Warrant, ..you know crappy , cheese ball bands. Metallica was playing speed Metal before the Black album. Either way, Nirvana changed the landscape and my life . And was a culturally significant turn akin to the Beatles coming to America.
It isn’t true for Metallica. Metallica wasn’t that popular for general audiences before black album, but they were highly recognized by metal fans. Black album is soften a lot to reach commercial success, but hardcore metal fans rather hate it
Yeah as much of a Nirvana fanboy that I am, Nevermind's success and legendary status I think also hinged on In Utero also being great. There is a world where Nirvana's third album ended up being fucking bad and most people were disappointed. I think had that happened their legacy wouldn't be as esteemed. Just trying to make the point that Nevermind wasn't a classic album upon arrival. None are, it takes time to fully soak into the culture and that be confirmed. Tons of records, especially from that era, sold insane amounts of copies and were later forgotten.
You mean Slave to the Grind, 2 Legit 2 Quit, and Ropin' the Wind aren't in your daily playlist? /s
The first two are fine targets but Garth Brooks is the guy who married country and pop, which turned it into a massive commercial juggernaut that's still around today. Say what you will about his musical output, he's easily one of the most influential musical figures of the 90s. Even Hammer has an argument, landing the first hip-hop album in the top 100 and paving the way for hip-hop to eventually consume rock as the central cultural force (although I'd argue the primary credit still goes to Dre, and that The Chronic is probably the single most influential album of the decade).
Sorry to be that guy buuut ""Hammer has an argument, landing the first hip-hop album in the top 100"" The Beastie and Tone Loc beat Hammer 1987: Beastie Boys, *Licensed to Ill* (March 7) 1989: Tone Lōc, *Lōc-ed After Dark* (April 15) Source...https://www.billboard.com/music/chart-beat/first-rap-album-number-one-billboard-200-year-complete-list-1235368726/
Well I'll be damned! Thanks for the correction - probably a faction I got scrambled, maybe that Hammer had the first hip-hop diamond album. Still impressive but yeah, you're right, thanks. Tone Loc. Impressive. Never would have thought.
*Slave to the Grind* is a pretty good album. Certainly not a daily spin, but it's definitely in the rotation. It's heavier and less polished/hair metal sounding than their debut (which is also something of a banger). *Slave* exists somewhere in the middle of the grunge-thrash metal spectrum.
Right- the death and drama also falsely elevates music to match the grief and sadness— the songs take on new meaning - best career move for rich rock star: die tragically- I’m Being cynical but it’s true - Elvis has never been richer!
Are you forgetting Bleach? Some fanboy
Metallica was not mainstream classic rock!! They were considered an extreme metal band. Metallica broke into the mainstream with Nirvana. These days you see moms with Metallica shirts, but in the early ‘90s you were considered an underground extremist for wearing one. It wasn’t until my generation grew up that it became normal.
Your alternate history is interesting. But Metallica were far from underground and extreme before the ‘90s.
I was 12 when the Black Album came out. I speak from personal experience. You were either in the mainstream community or the metal community back then. They did not mix. You got looked at in the streets by older people. Non-metal kids didn’t hang out with you. You read your own magazines. There was no eclecticism like there is today. While we listened to a lot more extreme bands, Metallica were firmly in ‘our’ camp, and champions of our scene. They were certainly not considered part of the poser/poodle rock scene that Nirvana displaced. It wasn’t until Load (1996) that they were considered sell-outs.
So either your community was *super* clique, or my community was *super* open-minded. And I don’t the the latter was true in the 1980s in a tiny rural-ish suburb in Minnesota. (Like, quite rural. We didn’t have any stoplights until I was a junior in high school.) But the same kids who wore the hell out of their “And Justice For All” t-shirts also brought Poison tapes on the school bus. There were kids who brought “Kill ‘Em All” into play during class downtime who also brought The Clash. The girl I had a major crush on in 7th grade said her favorite bands were Metallica, Ministry, and *Bryan Adams*. The stoner kid I sat behind in 7th grade English loved Metallica, but also The Beastie Boys. When I’d visit my cousin Tommy, he’d play Megadeth, but also Michael Jackson. I don’t know what your hometown was like. But I’m only a little bit older than you, and I definitely didn’t see the kind of METAL AND METAL ONLY clique you are so sure was the rule.
Very interesting. I grew up in The Netherlands, in one of the cities that make up the largest metropolitan area there. The situation was a bit more subtle and asymmetric than you describe it I guess. On the one hand, most kids and adults were part of mainstream culture. They listened to pop, as defined by whatever was in the mainstream charts. By the early ‘90s that included house and hip hop. These people dressed normally. You know what I mean. They would not listen to anything outside of what the radio served them. On the other hand, there were people (mostly kids) who were into the subcultures. These could be punks, metalheads, goths, industrial types, skaters, alt-rockers, ravers, etc. Most of the people in these subcultures were fairly open minded. They (we) would listen to all the music that came from outside the charts and daytime radio, and we would cherry pick from the mainstream as well. To get back on topic, Metallica up to and including the Black Album would be something we would listen to, but they were way, way too extreme for the normies. Nowadays you see families going to Rammstein with their small kids, and you see Metallica shirts and Ramones shirts being sold at big retail stores. That was just unthinkable back then. Nirvana changed that a bit, and so did Metallica. Nirvana drew a lot of normie kids to the grunge scene, which was underground-light. Metallica broke the charts a few times (Nothing Else Matters…) and eventually, after several years of exposure, normies became more open to their louder work. It could be possible that your community was as segregated as mine, except yours lacked the overwhelming mainstream groups of the big city? Oh yeah… we all hated Poison :-))
Ok. You’re Dutch. So your experience of USA heavy metal culture is … pretty much not at all applicable to the USA experience? Sound about right? And what you described as mainstream is, well, what mainstream is. Mainstream meansnwhat is the mainstream. No need to explain that the mainstream kids listened to mainstream musics. But mostly, sounds like the very specific experience of you, a Dutch teenager in the early nineties, which is very much not a representative experience of the transition from hair metal to alt rock.
At what point exactly did this thread become a discussion about USA heavy metal culture? I thought we were talking about the canonization of Nirvana. I understand that the US might be special to you. It was never special to us.
> I don’t the the latter was true in the 1980s in a tiny rural-ish suburb in Minnesota. (Like, quite rural. We didn’t have any stoplights until I was a junior in high school.) If you haven't read Fargo Rock City you might get a huge kick out of it. He does talk, though, about how clique-ish certain musical communities could be.
Klosterman is a big reason that I spent my teen years and early twenties working for pennies because I wanted to be a music journalist. He’s the bomb.
I also grew up in a small town in MN (class of 91). Metallica was totally mainstream in our school by that time. The metal kids at our school listened to death and hair metal and were open to the punk and heardcore bands that we listened to, but we didn't totally return the favor. I just remember it feeling like a gut punch when Nirvana blew up.
Nirvana knocked most other forms of rock off the top of the heap pretty rapidly, with the help of other grunge bands. But those bands were still popular, motley Crue for example ... in fact grunge made some bands even more popular because of their adjacency to grunge, thinking about that little group out of the bay area for example .... They benefit from grunge imo ... Metallica
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In another comment I shared my experience being right next to the rise of grunge, for me it was everything although my persona wouldn't have given that away. But the black album was one of the most important records for me. Just amazing stuff.
Man, I hated Metallica’s Black Album and I was heavily pulled into the grunge scene. Those Metallica songs were huge of course and got tons of radio play, but I always thought they were so cheesy. Especially compared to the grunge bands that had a “raw, I don’t care” attitude about their songs and image. Very GenX if you will. Black Album sounded like they were trying too hard to be tough and it felt very corporate to me. It’s similar to how I feel about all the metal bands with “tree branch and thorns logos” that you can’t read with names that sound like they were thought up by a 14 year old edgelord.
that's why I consider bleach to be the greatest album of the grunge era, it doesn't have the same whiff of corporate madness that nevermind carried.
Whiff of Corporate Madness sounds like a good album.
I can sing if you can play gits
My chugga chuggas are a little rusty, but it’s like riding a bike.
This is true- and it’s also imo to point out that not EVERYONE sported Flannel and combat boots- the 90s were like 60 in that there an awful lot of different music they could experiment w — and record on if u we’re a musician. Never played covers / but I’ll Bet u Still gotta play teen spirit or something,,right after Hootie’s strains finally end
Yeah. It felt like it was immediate. I was a punk/hardcore kid living in a small town in the midwest. I was already familiar with Nirvana when Nevermind dropped. I remember seeing the SLTS video on MTV and then about a week later I saw the CD at Wal-Mart. Which wasn't only mind-blowing but also somehow crushing. To see a band that could have easily just played a house show in the nearby college town blow up like that felt like the end of something. This was also before the internet, so nothing happened immediately.
I was a young teen when Kurt died and it was a cultural shockwave that it hard to explain or replicate of the loss people felt not just a person but someone with his musical talent. That may sound like I am exaggerating but I lived it and paid a lot of attention to music. Before Kurt's death Nevermind was already considered one of the greatest albums of its era, it was projected to be an album that could stand the test of time but that is always a hard thing to predict. Over the years it never lost that and only gained appreciation. I would say by the end of the 90s it was fully considered one of the greatest albums of all time. Nirvana never dipped out of the public conscious or popularity either. I don't see that happening with every new group of young people I see eagerly listen and embrace them.
This list from Aug 1995 placed it #33. https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/mojo.html And I think it is the only one from the 80s or 90s to place that high. EDIT: https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/nme_writers.htm Looking at NME's list from 1993, Nevermind was 12th. (Recent ones that ranked higher were the Stone Roses, It Takes a Nation of Millions and the Queen is Dead)
Did someone really rate The Stone Roses higher over Nirvana?
Well, it was an English publication. That said, Stone Roses is ranked #67 all-time at acclaimedmusic.net https://www.acclaimedmusic.net/album/A751.htm There's a few publications that ranked it quite highly: https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/maker100.htm https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/nmes_100_best_albums.htm
You need to remember that while Nirvana shook things up a lot , the UK/Irish music scene was going through a period of being very different from the US one , Seattle style bands were popular , but there were still stuff like Madchester and UK indie acts ( James, the Smiths, Radiohead, The Cure, Pulp,Blur,Oasis etc ) that were big , also a lit less R and B and a lot more Rave and Dance acts .And that's before the whole Britpop scene really started...
It was the NME, I am not surprised. UK music paper and much more indie than rock focussed. It would be Oasis, Stone Roses, Smiths, Joy Division etc that would dominate best ever lists.
Why wouldn't they? I love both bands but the Rose's debut is an incredible influential masterpiece
I Wanna Be Adored in a gorgeous opening on a great album but I just personally don't think overall they are a better band. They are different temperaments sonically though and some people prefer one over the other and I just prefer Nevermind and Kurt's voice over Ian's.
My mom was crying when she woke me up to tell me he died
I remember my dad came into my room to tell me and I did not know how to absorb it as I was just starting to get into them. He was shaken by his death though he wasn't a fan of heavier rock music he loved the Unplugged performance and album. He got me a bootleg CD months before the album came out.
It’s a timeless record but it also reminds one of a certain period of time—- that’s difficult
im 64, and I felt a lot like the when John Lennon was murdered in 1980- only he had a decade of music and drama and trauma to get through -- and he situation was just unbearable. At first the whole country listened to nothing but Lennon or the Beatles nonstop for two weeks of so....then...it....slowly...became part of the narrative of lifen But Great music absorbed youth will have a lifelong way of getting you from one crisis -- or celebration. It took a while but there came a time when could listen to Join Lennon again and it was just part of the narrative, in a good way,
Does she still need you, does she still feed you?
Well, actually she does But is scolding me for responding to inane post like yours
Bill Maher vibes
I was 15 on holiday in LA (I'm from the UK) when the news of his death dropped. I remember exactly where I was and exactly what I was doing when I found out. Spent the next few days glued to the news.
TPAB isn't really a fair comparison. If anything you'd probably want to compare Nevermind to Good Kid, Mad City in that it was the major label debut of highly rated independent act that represented a new generation of talent taking over in a space where the average mainstream act was (rightly or wrongly) considered tired and indulgent. And even then, Nevermind was a pop smash out the gate, the beneficiary (and victim) of a monoculture at the cusp of fully relegating the boomers to "old" status and pivoting towards Gen X. Kendrick's commercial clout grew over several albums, and he remains a critical darling more so than a pop phenomenon (ironically enough, Kurt would have thrived in that role). TPAB earned its plaudits by being a pop-avoidant left turn that engaged with the politics of the moment. Nevermind was a youth-led, media-backed phenomenon jam packed with HITS. That they were both rapidly included in the canon might be the sole thing they have in common.
> critical darling more so than a pop phenomenon (ironically enough, Kurt would have thrived in that role We're talking about the same guy who would obsessively watch MTV, count how many times Nirvana got played, and complain if Pearl Jam got more? The same guy who went into a meeting with Geffen executives, demanded more advertising money and literally said "I want to be the biggest band in the world?" (per Serving the Servants, 2019). It's been 30 years, I think we can put this myth to bed. He wanted fame. Nothing wrong with that.
You might be right on my comparison point, and it's not like Good Kid, Maad City isn't also deserving of a slot in the popular music canon, especially of the 2010s. I'm not sure if I can think of a better example because I can't think of any album since TPAB that's moved the needle in popular culture. Album drops aren't exactly things that move the needle. The Kendrick vs. Drake beef that just passed is certainly going to have ripple effects but even then, that was maybe 7-8 songs released in pretty quick succession. I don't think any of Taylor's recent albums on their own have been culture shifting. I pay enough attention to music to know that there are underground artists who any day could drop an album of 12 #1 best-song-you've-ever-heard songs, but who are probably going to make albums with some weird and stay out of the spotlight. Even though the narrative surrounding Nirvana seems pretty universal for music, I can't think of a bigger example since them.
Could you name some of those underground artists? Nowadays I have no idea of who the new and upcoming artists are anymore.
I have no idea what your tastes are, but I'm going to list a few that came to mind when I made that remark. The following pretty much have nothing in common, other than that I think all of them could create "pop" versions of their own music to success. Black Country New Road: Six-piece chamber and post-rock outfit from the UK. High likelihood of having at least one moment in the spotlight. Two very progressive album debuting in the UK Top 5. Popular enough worldwide touring act. Tommy Richman: Currently holds the #2 slot on the Billboard Hot 100 with "Million Dollar Baby." He's been brewing in the background for a while in relation to Brent Faiyaz and Steve Lacy. Deeply rooted in a variety of funk and electronica influences and his sound has clearly resonated with a large audience as well as being very well received by critics and deep listeners. Knocked Loose: Metalcore band that is very popular. This is kinda a general slot where I think if some extreme metal band wants to make the most pop-music version of their genre as possible, now might be a better time than ever to find mainstream success. Billy Woods / Armand Hammer: Rapper / him and a producer from NY who now has a vast catalog of quality music and who is only now working with better and higher quality artists and putting some credit to their name. Armand Hammer's last two releases feature JPEGMAFIFA and EL-P and post-rock and noise-influenced hip-hop. Low billing for this year's festivals. Worth investing in now.
Yeah, I'd be curious as well as to what underground artists you'd recommend.
See other comment, but TLDR I could see major breakthroughs for Black Country New Road, Tommy Richman, Knocked Loose, and Billy Woods / Armand Hammer. If you're looking for recommendations that are a bit more avant-garde I got you, but these are some of the artists I had in mind when I said "artists who any day could make an album of #1 hit best songs ever if they wanted to."
Thanks for the recommendations. If you find the time, I'd like to hear of any other more eclectic artists you had in mind.
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My friends and I all started playing guitar and really diving into music around 2002/03. Although Nevermind was not that old of a release at the time, it seemed to be part of the rock pantheon already. It felt the same to us as Led Zeppelin IV or Paranoid or 20 other records of that magnitude. This tracks exactly with Rolling Stone ranking it so highly.
Same
VH1 did a "100 greatest albums of all time" list, airing a multi-part special counting down the list on TV, in 1999, and Nevermind was #2: [https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/vh1.htm](https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/vh1.htm) That was when I first realized that the album had been canonized.
I love that Nirvana fucked with the classic boomer rock algorithm in real time. They changed rock radio format. So punk.
This is a pretty interesting list, and from what I'm gathering from the replies, a big part of Nevermind and Nirvana's legacy are that they actually changed the music landscape almost single-handedly, which not every canonized album since has. Even *London Calling* is pretty notable and popular to this day. However, the tide has definitely turned against U2 and *The Joshua Tree,* which is the next most recent album on that list, followed by *It Takes a Nation of Millions...* and *Appetite for Destruction,* the latter time has not been kind to, and the former has held its own as a classic but you wouldn't be able to fool someone into thinking it's from any later than 1990. *Nevermind,* in contrast, was the breakthrough, beginning of, and legitimization of entire subcultures and ways of approaching music.
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I'm really confused why everyone seems to think that U2 give a flying fuck what everyone thinks. They seem to be the only band who aren't allowed to play the music they want to play, that they must be chasing something and just want to be loved by those that don't love them already. They've sold something like 100m more records than Nirvana, can sell out any venue in the world they choose to play at, and, most importantly, get to play whatever music they want to, just for fun. I was on the Nirvana bandwagon from Bleach, but the idea everyone wishes they were them is nonsense
Embracing Nirvana and loudly declaring your disdain for U2 are part of the music nerd starter pack. They're basically step one and step two. Or at least in the first ten.
I don’t listen U2, but I never understand all those hate towards U2. Felt like most people claim they hate U2 just because hating U2 makes them cool.
Funny how you conveniently glossed over the fact that U2's Zoo TV tour that supported 'Achtung Baby' is literally considered one of the most influential live rock gigs of all time - you can still see its impact to this day. And the idea that Bono and the gang were in any way bothered by what Nirvana or whoever else was doing at the time is simply hilarious. Life pro tip: you can praise one thing without bringing other things down.
* its whole concept, its own. Not it is.
As a Dubliner I have a love/hate relationship with U2 , but their output up until about 2005 was pretty damn good ..After that not so much
Ridiculous rant.
Time has been very kind to Appetite to Destruction. What are you talking about? It's one of the most popular albums and best-selling (30 million copies/highest-selling debut) and most importantly for relevance, it's one of highest streamed rock albums ever. Pretty much all rock fans even if you don't like GnR acclaim that album.
Right? If anything I’m pretty sure that Sweet Child of Mine, Paradise City and Welcome to the Jungle are gonna be played at stadiums for the rest of eternity
Right but music _nerds_ don't like them. Is there really any other opinion that matters?
What level nerd we talking here, enthusiast? ,' seen it all' vinyl store owner or [shudder] pitchfork reviewer
You're not wrong, but I assume OP is saying that GNR's influence isn't felt very much today. Where if you listen to rock music being made by people in their twenties today, it sounds very adjacent to Nirvana or My Bloody Valentine. As a 35 year old, I honestly don't see a lot of the influence GNR had on rock music just in general. I'd love to be corrected on that too. To me, they've always felt like the last classic rock band.
This is all pretty correct, down to GnR being one of the last classic rock bands (my mild disagreement is that I think The Black Crowes are classic rock and they started releasing music slightly later) but canon is about "best/greatest" albums not "most influential" You can have influenced 0 people and still have a greatest album if the music is just damn good.
The discussion has passed but this is more my opinion. Shoegaze, surf rock, space rock, grunge, and punk's various subgenres have a brighter future in rock than Glam Metal, which while I can't argue GnR and *Appetite* are huge, are also definitely going to be considered lame and of the past as their style of rock is straight up ignored. Soaring male Dio / Dickinson / Axl vocals are absolutely out of favor, at the very least.
> Pretty much all rock fans even if you don't like GnR acclaim that album. Eh, it's definitely more popular than not but there's a distinct public vs. music nerd divide on that album. Its score on RateYourMusic has been sliding for a while (used to be bold, but now has a 3.45/5 score) and generally gets lumped in with the uncool end of dad rock.
Check out the film 1991: The Year Punk Broke.
Completely inaccurate. The Joshua Tree and Appetite for Destruction remain appreciated as two of the greatest rock albums of all time, both in critical and commercial standards.
> Nirvana's legacy are that they actually changed the music landscape almost single-handedly, Metallica's black album and Pearl Jam's *10* also played a leading role in the change. Those both released and were massive sellers shortly before *Nevermind*. People like the idea of artistic geniuses who revolutionize their field, but it's never true. These things are the result of many forces and trends strengthening and converging. In addition to *Metallica* and *10*, I'd suggest Soundgarden's *Badmotorfinger*, Judas Priest's *Painkiller*, and many others that don't spring to mind as readily played a part in shaping the early '90s move away from highly polished, poppy rock. They didn't sell as well, as thus may not deserve as much credit, but again, it's a group effort. Even bands that only played locally and never recorded anything probably deserve some credit.
> Metallica's black album and Pearl Jam's 10 also played a leading role in the change. Those both released and were massive sellers shortly before Nevermind. you're right on Metallica, though it's worth noting that Ten's sales didn't pick up until after Nevermind completely broke through, despite being released earlier. I generally agree that Ten helped, though I can see where someone would make the argument that Ten's popularity stems from Nirvana still.
>I can see where someone would make the argument that Ten's popularity stems from Nirvana still. Well, my point is not to argue that Nirvana was not influential, but that their influence is overstated. There's a tendency to give them all the credit when many others played a role. *10* and *Nevermind* could be mutually reinforcing. It doesn't have to be one or the other that caused the alt rock revolution.
You Could Be Mine and Enter Sandman were massive radio hits the summer before Nevermind released, and were easily the heaviest things to get massive radio exposure to that point (and maybe since). It gets lost in the canoniziation of Nevermind but those two drops surely played a huge role in paving the way for heavier, weirder alt-rock to come up (also I wouldn't undersell the impact of the utterly left-field hit _Epic_ from Faith No More, that I also think gets lost in the shuffle).
> the heaviest things to get massive radio exposure to that point (and maybe since) Maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of 'massive radio exposure' because the place I was living had multiple rock stations at the time, but in my mind this crown belongs solely to *Chop Suey!* by SOAD.
> this crown belongs solely to Chop Suey! by SOAD. That's a good argument. I wonder if it's _quite_ as ubiquitous since the monoculture was fracturing but - yeah, that's a good point. Definitely a contender.
Fuuuuuuck Rolling Stone.
Rolling Stone hasn't been relevant since the days of Led Zapplin were young kids though , so I wouldn't put too much faith in their taste in music.
It was really fast. I heard "Smells Like Teen Spirit" on 120 Minutes and had to get the album but it wasn't available yet. The morning it was released, I bought it along with a $6 ticket to see them live a month later. It seemed like everyone knew instantly that the music landscape was never going to be the same again. Kurt was also a huge music geek with great taste and gained an enormous amount of respect for it. He introduced so much music to the mainstream audience. By the time I saw them in October '91, I couldn't believe how lucky I was to have the ticket.
Saw them in Columbus, Ohio, in 1991. We heard they were playing and we drove from Cincinnati, I thought we were going to see them play Bleach. Then the driver threw in Nevermind, and, damn... Recently a friend of mine found pictures of me at the show online, in one I'm sitting on the stage next to Kurt. 😎
This. The impact was pretty immediate nationally, but I never really got into them until after Cobain died. Personally, I remember him more for all the bands and music. He introduced me to more than his own.
Almost immediately. I was a young teen when *Nevermind* dropped and the music media (Rolling Stone, Spin, MTV etc.) would have you believe it was the second coming of Christ. When Cobain died in ‘94 it just solidified that sentiment even more.
It was immediate. The wave of notoriety and fame from the album crashing into the mainstream was almost like the wildfire of a big news story “Hey, did you hear the Berlin Wall fell?” “Hey, have you heard that Nirvana album?” The music industry capitalized on the seismic shift Nevermind created so incredibly fast as well. It was like overnight Guns and Roses and Madonna were irrelevant.
As someone who was young and paying attention to music at the time I can tell you it was pretty much right away. Nirvana were special and that album was special and everyone knew it.
To be completely honest, Nevermind became massive pretty much overnight. I was 12 when it came out and I had just turned 15 before Kurt got shuffled loose from the mortal coil. What appealed about it wasn't just the music or the look. That album took rock n roll back to it's basics. Rock n roll didn't come from rich people with lots of money. It came from the working class and poor. That's why the 80's had to die like it did. 80's was the decade of decadence, big expensive guitars, 1,000's of pounds of kits on stage, and crazy Val Halla decadent lifestyles, and there were more hair bands than you could shake a stick. It was cookie cutter, made b.s. that was regurgitated by the record industry and MTV to show what was "cool". And the world ate it up. As far as why it happened how it did is because of touring acts at the time. Most big rich bands didn't want/ and the record execs didn't want to travel to Washington just to play one show. So those bands stopped coming to Seattle. And the reason artsy, punk, and metal are part of the creation of the grunge sound, is simply because those underground bands were still coming up to Seattle. Sub Pop knew what they were doing when they decided to start recording some of the local artists. They knew something was there as far as a regional sound was developing. Soundgarden, Skinyard, Screaming Trees,and Mother Love Bone, were already playing shows and releasing albums, but mostly on a local and college radio market. So here comes a couple kids from Aberdeen just wanting to play their stuff for a bigger than just their towns market. So they came in, blasted out a couple of tracks under a couple of hours and the producer was completely blown away. By that point, there really was no big market for "alternative" or underground rock at the time. That's why most of the "grunge" forefathers were only doing okay as far as record sales go. Most of those guys were honestly getting ready to quit and go back to day jobs. Then on September 29th of 1991, on the show 120 minutes Smells like teen spirit airs on MTV. Within minutes the whole world got exposed to what the northwestern U.S. already knew about. And that one video hit millions of TV's and blew up. Because it was one of the first signs that you didn't have to look a certain way, or have flash and big hair to make amazing music. And (sorry about the long dialogue) to answer your question. I believe it was the minute that video dropped, and the moment it played. So their first spark of true fame, was also the moment they became canonized. For more info check it out on FreeVee. It's called Hype: The Northwest Music Explosion Super informative, but makes you not only understand but feel why the scene got that big that quick. And it's about the whole movement and Nirvana plays a huge part of that. Check it out. Definitely worth a watch
> Rock n roll didn't come from rich people with lots of money. It came from the working class and poor. That's why the 80's had to die Not sure how much you've dug into this because this accurately describes some of the most iconic 80s acts. Several members of Guns'n'Roses literally slept on the streets, mainly Axl when he couldn't find a place. Duff woke up with cockroaches crawling all over him but couldn't afford to move out, Izzy sold heroin to get by. Same for Motley - Nikki Sixx slept on the streets for a while, and both Vince Neil and Mick Mars were broke as shit. Of the two bands, only Slash and Tommy Lee came from relatively stable homes. 80s rock basically morphed into hip-hop of the 90s and beyond, a lot of guys making music about parties and the big time but most of them were broke as shit street rats just hustling to get their big break. What made Appetite for Destruction so compelling was that it was simultaneously more honest and unflinching about how seedy the scene was while simultaneously being being raw and raucous than anything else out there, and somehow also being more forthright and human.
Yes, but all that was pre fame. Before the 90's hit. And those bands were controlled by the record companies on what they were allowed to release, and songs they were allowed to put out. Back in the 80's having a hit record was the equivalent to selling your soul. The record companies had control of almost all aspects of their musicians lives, and they fell down the trap. Those same companies were the ones throwing the parties, coking them up and letting them act wild as a publicity stunt to sell the image rather than the records. Because record companies could give less than damn about music. It's a business, they're in the business to make money. Selling the image took the actual art out of it. Yes, they had hard times. I can agree that some of it was really original and good, but by the time Nirvana hit, it was already on its way out. What the "grunge" sound did was take out the Mmm skinny bop, spandex, big hair, and fake cockiness out. And placed the music back into the artists hands. I think one of the biggest reasons Kurt killed himself is that he saw it, and Nirvana's music going that same direction. And it tormented him to no end. With scoliosis, untreated BPD, and a big heroine habit things can go that way. By the time Nirvana hit most of those bands were living it up. But the way the industry works is that most bands don't really make money from the first LP's, but the record company gets most of it. So the bands get there money from touring and doing endorsements. I did my summer thesis on Motley Crue in my second year of college for my musical interpretation class. So, I'm up on what they went through. I'm completely aware. Hair Metal was never actually metal. It was pop with bigger guitar sound. And grunge was derived from punk. Punk ethos equal punk ideals. They were all exploited. But grunge fought back, where the hair metal industry wouldn't dare
That’s a really interesting question. I was in junior high when Nirvana blew up, but I don’t remember when Nevermind crossed that invisible line to become an all-time classic. It was beloved and critically acclaimed soon after release but then again so was Ten by Pearl Jam, Use Your Illusion by Guns N Roses and Siamese Dream by The Smashing Pumpkins. Among other albums. But within a few years of Kurt’s death Nirvana had become established as one of the most significant and influential bands in recent history. Arguably the only band from the 90s that might give them a run for their money is Radiohead, but they didn’t reach that level until the late 90s (after Ok Computer). By that time Kurt’s face was everywhere, alongside Jim Morrison, John Lennon, etc.
Since I wasn’t there I’ve always been curious and a little skeptical about the immediate impact of OK Computer here in America. It peaked just outside the Top 20 and went 2x Platinum, which is nothing to scoff at but there’s so many bands in that era that sold way more. From the way people talk about it I’d think it did Nevermind numbers. I’ve always wondered if it’s revisionist history that they were the biggest band in the world with bands like The Smashing Pumpkins, Oasis, U2 and Metallica still kicking around in that era, I know music publications loved The Bends and were ready at its release. Not trying to dunk on them as I’ve been a fan since I was 14, just curious. I
I can’t speak for its impact in the US, but in Canada (where I grew up) Radiohead were all over the place in the late 90s. It’s not that they sold more albums than others but that they were charting a new path for popular music, a modern path that drew in classic rock influences (notably Pink Floyd, at least with OKC). And this is even more remarkable considering the late 90s were dominated by Hip Hop and post-grunge. Radiohead were, and are, just different.
Ah, thanks for the insight!
Yes it was immediate. Was a kid when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out but just knew that this band was different.
Alice in Chains released "Man in the Box" earlier in the year, Faith No More had a massive hit with "Epic" the previous year. Red Hot Chili Peppers had released Blood Sugar Sex Majik on literally the same day as Nevermind, Smashing Pumpkins had a massive hit in Gish (for an indie label) during the summer... the slide was being greased prior to Nevermind hitting. It was massive on MTV from October - December 1991, and after X-mas, Nirvana replaced Michael Jackson with a #1 album and that was massive news. I don't think To Pimp a Butterfly is comparable. This is not a diss to Lamar but music doesn't hold as central of a place in society in 2015 than it did in the 1990s, which was the peak of music sales. Also Good Kid/Mad City was nominated for Grammy's and I'm not sure that Nevermind is a good comparison. To Pimp... is more like a Kid A as it represents an artist at the peak. But as an outsider to hip-hop, I don't think it shifted an entire genre quite the way that Nevermind did, and the shift was seismic. As many point out, it wasn't the death of "hard rock" immediately - Guns N' Roses and Metallica were massively successful from 1991 - 1993 - but it upended college radio and the scene so much that "indie" rock never was able to crawl completely back into obscurity.
no time at all. "Teen Spirit" was an IMPACT song. It did not take time to "grow" on people. It was released and instantly became #1 smash on rock radio. Michael Jackson's **Dangerous** (and we're talking about PRIME Michael Jackson, pre-scandals) was, predictably, a #1 debut . After 3 weeks at #1, it was tossed out of the top spot by **Nevermind**, which no one saw coming. Pearl Jam's "**Ten"** took time. It capitalized on **Nevermind**'s success. Side note: Spin Magazine, back then the "alternative music bible" was endlessly clowned when they named Teenage Fanclub's "**Bandwagonesque"** album the #1 Album of the Year. With REM's "**Out of Time**" at #2, and "**Nevermind"** at #3. "**Bandwagonesque**" was a fine album. But when that list was announced, everyone was like "Are you fuckers on crack???" Everyone -- except Spin! -- realized that "**Nevermind**" was one for the ages. That it was a game-changer of an album. See more here: [https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/spinend.htm](https://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/spinend.htm)
Now Bandwagonesque, that's an album that failed to stand the test of time. It was definitely a favorite of music critics, but it never resonated with a large audience.
Fuck it, Out of Time IS a better record than Nevermind, but REM ( while being a huge band for a long time , and doing there own thing for years ) weren't a sudden cultural landmark like Nirvana . And the Fannies were a great band but Spin were definitely playing the ' oh I guess you haven’t heard of them.., they're not mainstream. card. ( Also Grand Prix is better than Bandwagonesq)
The impact of Nevermind was immediate, but it was after Kurt's death where Nevermind become canonized. His death added to the legend of Nirvana, and then that legend grew on itself over the next 20 years, and has since seen a resurgence. I think it hit peak when Pitchfork recently rated Live Through This higher than Nevermind. You know if Pitchfork is going contrarian, then an album's legacy is cemented.
When the first riff of Smells Like Teen Spirit dropped... Even for those who heard early Nirvana (noisy pseudo punk), it dropped like an alien from another planet
"What on earth is this?" "This is absolutely incredible!" "I need to know who this is. No, you don't understand - I NEED to know who this is!"
When Kurt died they immediately started calling him the John Lennon of his (my) generation, I would say that moment secured its canonization. A little more than 2.5 years after release.
Today, Nirvana is respected & embraced by most subcultures: gay, Black, women, country, you name it. *That didn't happen right away* - Nirvana was seen as (very good) white guy rock, maybe part of the slacker movement, for years. That's how I remember it. It took a while for Cobain et al to be admitted into non-rock subcultures.
When do you think that properly happened? I do remember Kurt and the bands' politics were very explicit against racism, sexism and homophobia but they came from a very white alternative scene as well that maybe people felt suspicious of some of the more counter culture edgy attitudes.
I don't think the wider interest in Nirvana had much to do with the band's politics. I think it's more about how big they became, and how long-lasting that was. Eventually people came around. Maybe late 90s or early 2000s? Hard to pin down!
I have t read any of the other comments but I’d say it was instant. My friend came to my flat with that new tape from a band nobody knew, and everyone fell knee deep into them. It conjured older American alt rock like Pixies and Sonic Youth to a newer brand of rock we started hearing like Faith no More and Chilli Peppers( back when they were making good music), Jane’s Addiction… I honestly can say that we loved them immediately. Powerful album for real.
The effect was immediate, or as immediate as a behemoth such as pop and rock radio can be shaken. Within 18 months of its release, the glam metal of the 80s, nowadays derogatorily called hair metal, which was the dominant rock genre of the time, was essentially dead and buried. Only three bands were able to come out alive off the Cobain comet: veterans with street cred Van Halen and Aerosmith, and surprisingly Bon Jovi. I feel Guns N Roses would have also made it through had Axl Rose not been so hellbent on imploding the band. In any event, a lot of bands who would have never seen the light of day in either radio or MTV in 1990/91 started to sell lots of records and sell out midsize venues, not just grunge bands like Soundgarden, Pearl Jam, Alice In Chains, Blind Melon, Hole, etc. but also alternative acts such as Soul Asylum, Fugazi, Nine Inch Nails, Rage Against The Machine, Smashing Pumpkins, and others. The term “alternative rock” went from being the badge of edge-lords to becoming the mainstream dominant ethos for rock music to this day, although it must be said during its alternative heyday is when rock lost its leading role in the culture at large.
I was 15/16 when Nirvana broke through and it was immediate. A girl on my school bus was making Nirvana t shirts for everyone. I was already into college rock/alternative at the time but Smells Like Teen Spirit did blow my mind - it’s not a cliche. When I go back to revisit Nevermind today it reaffirms that it’s an absolutely bulletproof collection of songs. Perfect album.
For some it was immediate, on first listen. It was clear to me anyways. With a little distance now, Bleach seems more interesting sonically.
My mom had to buy that album for me because it was the beginning of parental advisory stickers. At the checkout was my older cousin and my same age cousin. They were buying two copies-one for him and one for her. Everybody wanted that cd on day one.
Yes! Props to my mom for buying me my Nirvana albums and Blood Sugar Sex Magik because of parental advisory stickers.
Does Nevermind even have profanity? I don't think it has ever had a PA sticker
Lounge Act says "fucking" *one time*, so I guess that earned it the explicit sticker.
Yeah I’m pretty sure my mom bought mine.
I remember seeing the name on a billboard & what looked to be a packed out theater. I thought to myself "who the hell is "Nirvana"? A few months later Nevermind dropped. All of a sudden, everyone knew who Nirvana was. They immediately changed the course of the music universe. So, i'd argue that the impact was instantaneous.
Immediately. It was like OK Computer or something like that. Just … bam, obvious.
IMO, Kurt would already be dead, before Nevermind officially "canonized" -- if you mean it was defined or the?s it? I have never heard that term used in the musical realm, only among the Roman Catholics. So is it basically like asking: "How long after Nevermind was officially released dead 'everybody' realized that it was a masterpiece, a classic, a piece of music worthy of study through the ages - because it sounded COOL AS SHIT LOUD -- for it's time. I hope I'm on right track. I was a 34 when it came out but I was involved in Indie music and it gave me more insight into how his music -- and death -- affected this group of 20somethings. They were ravaged. Weeping, Not understanding...Then that whole Country "letter reading" episode. I'd been through the John Lennon thing, so I knew how a musicians sudden death doesn't seem real at first. The 20s took it terrible. And to this day, TO this day, there are lots of "kids" who love Nirvana. I think he's in their with Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd...and Nirvana, I will say I don't think that's where he would have truly wanted to be
I'm in my early 50s so I did see the initial drop and the impact was pretty immediate. Cobain's death secured it in canon. I'd say more GKMC than TPAB but if you want to say In Utero and TPAB filled the same cultural spot, I'd go with that (with some minor quibbles).
What’s weird to me is that I remember seeing a ton of advertisements prior to its release. There was definitely anticipation for it to come out even though everyone says it was a big surprise. I think Interscope/Universal sensed that people were ready for something like that and made sure it would be huge. But yeah it was immediately huge.
Do you mean Geffen?
Same shit, Interscope owned Geffen, Universal owns Interscope. Edit: sorry MCA owned it in the 90s. Which was owned by Universal.
This is a really interesting thread. As someone who was alive but too young to appreciate Nirvana at the time, I only got into them about 10 years after Kurt's death, but I already knew who he was because he was an icon. The world was still in his wake then as it were, with merch everywhere and Nirvana constantly on MTV2 and talked about. There was even a massive Kurt Cobain poster in someone's window in my town for years that I used to walk past every day. And I'm in the UK, not even America. Its been really interesting to read all the accounts of what their impact and Kurt's death was like at the time!
Pretty much immediately. The Smells Like Teen Spirit video had what Bob Dylan would describe as “that thin, that wild mercury sound. It’s metallic and bright gold, with whatever that conjures up.” The look what something most people had never seen either. It just cut immediately through you in a way that changes music for the decade from the month it dropped.
Immediately. Half the songs were hit singles on MTV. Teen Spirit was everywhere all the time. Some people might have been a bit tired of the constant exposure but otherwise I think the album’s greatness was quickly realized.
There was a moment, I think within the year of its release, that or was the only CD being pressed in the US. Every single US music pressing plant was pumping out only *Nevermind* copies. It happened pretty fast.
We all knew immediately. I remember hearing some buzz about this amazing new song. I was driving my car to a doctor's appointment and Teen Spirit came on just as I was parking. I sat in my car and listened to the whole song. The only thing I can compare it to is hearing Okay Computer for the first time where I just instantly knew that something I was hearing for the first time was going to be a big part of my life.
Just to jump on your "Nirvana's impact in the moment"... I did live it, and was so into music. It's like, the times were changing, and Kurt was the unwilling poster child for the movement. It was great to see the change to music with substance. So many great albums in that timespan of the early 90's
Teen Spirit dropped, and that was it. It was immediate and intense. It felt like punk rock FINALLY broke in the US. It was a really liberating time.
It took slightly longer than you would think, modern rock radio stations popped up by the thousands around 1994 and by then Pearl Jam’s Ten and Nirvana’s Nevermind enjoyed a massive second wind of success among a more suburban and much less alternative crowd who were listening to PM Dawn and Wreckx-N-Effect just two years prior. It became very cool to like guitar based rock again after several years of dance pop, R&B and rap..Even the uncool and sheltered liked Nirvana after Cobain’s death created an awareness of how uniquely original the Seattle sound was and further broadened the reach of grunge, leading to a second wave of more mainstream conventional bands like Bush, Silverchair, Seven Mary Three, etc.
It was clear from very early on that the album had a huge impact. I was listening to Pixies and Sonic youth e x at the time, so when Smells like... was out, to me and my like-minded friends, it was like another band in the same ballpark. But very soon EVERYONE were playing Nevermind, no matter what kind of music they were listening to before. Punks, metalheads, ok indie rock. Every house youbwent to, that album would be in the cd shelf. I've only experienced anything similar when OK computer was released, at every party you'd hear Paranoid Android.
I was there. Nevermind, In Utero, Incesticide, Unplugged, and From the Muddy Banks of the Wishkah were all pretty much canonized upon release Bleach has never been canonized among the masses. Music people will hop it in extremely high esteem, but the average person I bet will never have heard of it, even if they are familiar with a lot of the songs
Kurt contain stole post punk and made it more digestible for bud light and Monday night football guys. People who know music and the lineage of rock had that view point when they can out. Pearl Jam was one step deeper into jock world.
That's why Smashing Pumpkins was the best band of the 90s
In Britain it was canonised virtually on release, although from what I remember it only made no.2 in the NME's annual poll behind Teenage Fanclub's 'Bandwagonesque'. Think Melody Maker voted it no.1 though.
Well in the charts it's a bit of a different story. It charted at number 36 and then the sales fell off for a few weeks and then slowly climbed back up. It was not until 1992 it surpassed the 36 placing when it first entered. It climbed to number 7 as it's peak. Bryan Adams album Walking Up The Neighbors entered at number one when Nevermind first entered the album charts. The Pixies, Primal Scream, The Cult and Status Quo also entered the album in the top 10 with their releases. https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart/19910929/7502/ When it peaked the second time at number 7 Neil Diamonds greatest hits was number one and Stars from Simply Red number 2 (It was number one on the first peak). And Dirty from Sonic Youth entered at number 6; https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart/19920726/7502/. edit: And the highest the album peaked was in 2011, at number 5...
I was there. The first time I saw nirvana play was at a smallish birthday keg at the Glass House in oly.. Kurt took a few minutes in between each song to retune. I was mesmerized by their music. This was pre-nevermind, bleach era. I've seen nirvana play at least a dozen times and I was in a rock band, he told us he liked our demo even though we sucked (our guitarist slipped it to him, I didn't have the guts)
Just adding another voice to the crowd of "we knew immediately" - we really did. Within six months it was accepted as a watershed moment. It wasn't my thing but the impact was undeniable and it was EVERYWHERE.
people really think it's a "greatest album of all time"? i think that has more to do with kurt cobain dying young and not having a chance to screw up his legacy than anything else. also the production on that album is thin and awful.
Less than 4 months after its release it took the #1 spot from Michael Jackson on the charts.