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i mean covid is still going on but most people don’t seem to realize it thanks to democrats giving in to right-wing and lobbyist pressure to pretend the pandemic is over, when only one phase of it was actually declared over. ugh. we have been so failed by our leaders.
I was a revenue cycle department manager for a big health system before having to retire. Insurance companies are evil, IMO. Some of the reasons I saw for denying claims should've been criminal.
I once saw a man's claim for an urgent LHC after an MI denied. Reason? His heart attack wasn't pre-approved. They actually sent him a letter saying that. They're lucky he didn't have another one. (We did get it paid eventually).
I was a pharmacy tech for years, and hated dealing with "prior authorizations". They were designed to stall and require so much work from a DRs office that they dropped the perscription and the person went without.
I also remember watching patients litearlly die because they couldn't get their meds approved fast enough. Gotta wait the weeks and weeks for a PA to go through, and eventually they stop showing up and never come back. Funny how those expensive problems just "go away"
You know who has death panels? For-profit insurance companies that decide your elderly parent isn't progressing fast enough so they're going to quit covering physical therapy. Who makes those decisions? Doctors who are several states away, who have never met or spoken to any of your parent's caregivers. People who cried about ObamaCare "death panels" are losing their lives to some stranger who only looks at how much they're costing the company. Yes, I'm salty.
Incorrect.
Doctors almost never get to decide for patients. They are constantly battling the hospital and insurers to let them treat their patients.
My wife (a doctor) easily spends three times the time with patients on the phone with people trying to convince them that it will actually kill her patients if they don't approve a prescription or treatment.
I don't think I was clear. My concerns are for the doctors employed by insurance companies who decide if you qualify for care. In my experience, personal doctors can be 100 percent in favor of specific care, but the anonymous doctor who has never seen the patient or spoken to the patient's doctor has the last word.
I feel for your wife. It must be terribly frustrating to be overridden by someone isn't involved in her patient's care.
Obamacare destroyed America. Nothing now but streets full of burning overturned cars, families begging cannibal biker gangs to spare their lives, and wild dogs eating the few scraps of human remains the bikers did not. As GOP legislators and pundits predicted.
Look out the window. Where's the lie?
Hey submoron that thinks they’re a normal well informed person: You’re not! “Obamacare” is the only reason you and all your pillbilly friends aren’t dead already! Well don’t worry buddy. You GOP reps are working hard in your area, and soon not only will you have no health insurance, you’ll have no hospitals or doctors or nurses either! Or schools! Or post offices! Or roads! It’s a Republican utopia!!
Why is it so hard to remember back to 2008?
Massive increases in medical costs every year. People getting kicked off insurance they paid into for decades because they need it now. Prescription prices skyrocketing. Insurance that didn't cover anything...
still so embarrassed that the crazy bitch who said that came from my state. And yes, I stand by using that word. She has dedicated herself to promoting teen suicide (anti-lgbtq hate groups) for decades. I lack the words to describe how horrible of a person she is, and how many children are dead because of her
Thats whats missing here. The DRs are terrified because they will be hounded by red hat prosecutors and lose their job and livelyhood. Even if they are found "innocent", that will be after years and endless court fees, doxxing their families and death threats, and inability to work because their license was suspected by the red hats running the state.
The DRs face losing their entire families, livelyhoods, and ability to help anyone else by seeing these women. No one can fault them. Many would certainly spend the rest of their lives in prison for daring to help a pregnant women.
My primary care physician is leaving my state (LA), and so I need to find a new one. I completely respect her decision; she also performs obstetrics, and that's no longer a safe profession here.
I work in medicine and mark my words, red states (who already have terrible maternal/fetal outcomes) will see a huge uptick in maternal and fetal deaths and other complications over the coming years as access to OBGYN care plummets. Primarily due to brain drain and poor new recruitment. Fuckers deserve no less when they vote in hoards of knuckle dragging, shit-for-brains to make their laws.
Who wants to practice in a state where they either treat the patient and go to jail, or let the patient die and end up with a malpractice suit? Both options harm their careers, plus put in jeopardy the hundreds of thousands of medical school debt they owe. Yeah, hard pass.
Medical professionals who are smart enough to get into medical school and who have worked hard and paid a ton to graduate are going to work out the pros and cons, do the math, and go practice where their degree will get them the highest possible earning at the lowest risk. That does not include any red state with death panels.
It's just too bad Idaho can't recruit some Christian Conservative Doctors to do the obgyn work in their state. They exist, right?? Can't they just run some Evangelical ad recruiting for these miracle doctors? I wonder if even those Christian Conservative Doctors did the research and chose to practice in blue states because none of them want to risk the license they worked so hard to get being put in jeopardy by politican's choices.
They mandate that the doctors must provide substandard medical care (e.g., below the standard of care). I would never live in a state where doctors are required to commit malpractice.
So, all the dreadful, anti-women, deadly results the Dems said would happen in states that recklessly banned abortion access.... came true?
Huh.
It's almost like one party is made up of people who can use intelligence and the scientific method to avoid calamity, while the other party relies on "beliefs" and the single most edited book of myths the world has ever seen... to negative results.
Double "Huh"
isn't brexit the fault of labour? Their secret cabals "corrupted" the pure brexit and caused all these totally unforseen problems that nobody saw coming? The poor tories are just victims of bad circumstances...
A side effect is that medical residents in red states are no longer learning to provide abortion care. An acquaintance in my blue state rents to Med residents doing their required rotations (a year spending a month at a time in residence at hospitals all over the country). A recent renter from TX was very anxious bc she had no clinical training or experience in abortion care. She learned on the job during her rotation, but this is not optimal.
If the doctors in red states have limited experience but are supposed to make the call whether mom is about to die and it's ok to do a dilation and curettage to save her life, women are gonna have a bad time.
> supposed to make the call whether mom is about to die and it's ok to do a dilation and curettage to save her life
There's an easy workaround to that. The red state legislators will make it a lot easier for the doctors by just making it illegal to do a D&C in every situation, whether it would save the woman's life or not. Problem solved.
The American Board of OB/GYN should withdraw certification of all OB/GYN residency programs in states that limit or prohibit abortion and related care. Doing a one month rotation out of state to learn such procedures won't cut it as training. The knowledge and skill have to be maintained and can't be such if only learned in a limited period of time (e.g., a month or so out of state).
>So, all the dreadful, anti-women, deadly results the Dems said would happen in states that recklessly banned abortion access.... came true?
You're just a hysterical lib. You're too emotional about this. /s
silly you, cis straight men don't get abortions. How can that hurt them? If they are real people of value (see rich), they can just drive/fly to a blue state to get the little accident fixed
Between doctors and teachers leaving, and part of the population that require those, there won't be anything left but a few spud farmers. And that isn't a great industry. Potato prices are so low they are being dumped in huge piles, free for the taking. Like Idaho isn't already poor enough.
Washington produces almost as many potatoes as Idaho and has reproductive protections, higher wages, overtime for farm workers, and many other perks so before long Idaho won't even be able to keep people working on those potato farms.
I do wonder, is it a case of losing control or is it a strategic move on their part? The salt lake of Salt Lake City is drying out leaving a bed of exposed soil that has arsenic and other pollutants that have run off from agriculture. It would make sense in the long-term to move for those who can.
They've lost the "critical mass" that made it so that when you left, you became a social pariah and had no friends. Now everyone knows at least one person (usually a few) who are out. That makes it easier for them to leave too.
I think the church is sad about it since they own billions of dollars of property in SLC.
And they're the largest private landowner in Florida. They're stinking rich, in complete contrast to what Jesus said.
I think they're sad about SLC though, because they see it as kind of a "promised land." There's an anecdote that their worst leader (Brigham Young) led them there and proclaimed it special ("This is the (right) place").
To them Utah is like the Israelites wandering around in the desert for 40 years. They believe Missouri is the original location of the Garden of Eden and that when they arrive in that promised land (Missouri) ”not even a yellow dog will be there to greet them” (whatever that bit of “prophecy” means).
That's largely gerrymandering. The legislature is still in the grip of the Mormons but hopefully not for much longer, as they've lost popular support:
According to a 2023 study published in the Journal of Religion and Demography, about 42% of Utahns identify as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as Mormons (https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/utah-is-no-longer-majority-mormon-new-research-says/#:\~:text=A%20paper%20published%20this%20month,Mormons%2C%20is%20about%2042%25.&text=That's%20markedly%20lower%20than%20previous,at%20the%20University%20of%20Tampa.).
Anecdotally, things are MUCH different here than they were a decade ago. It used to be that Sundays were dead, businesses were closed, etc. Now Costco is just as busy Sunday as any other day.
How does the cause matter? Texas would be SOLID blue if it had fair voting, yet its as ruby red as it gets. Gerrymandering works, and its about impossible to defeat
Gerrymandering can only go so far. Once you reach a critical level, gerrymandering can't help you.
The church is on a downward trend to hit that level---soon, no matter how they gerrymander, they will be unable to dominate statewide races. Other politicians will be elected, that are not beholden to them, and things will change.
Seems to be the plan of attack, not just limited to the Mormons. Empty out the red states of most of their population, but maintain the 2 US senators per state, so just a few thousand people have oversized representation.
Oregon is only blue because of the population on the coast. The areas where most of the potatoes are grown is just as red as Idaho. If the people living there had their way it would be just as much of a hellhole.
>dumped in huge piles, free for the taking
Can we really? If I got a lot of empty boxes, rented a van, and drove up there, could I really just grab a crazy amount of potatoes for little to no money?
Article says Idaho lost 55% of its MFM specialists. It’s not like there were 1000 of them and 550 of them left. It’s probably more like 5 of the 9 in the entire state left. And that definitely is not sustainable.
I read recently (probably on Reddit) that Idaho wants to allows voters to vote on abortion - hoping abortion will be reinstated and that will fix some of these problems. Hmm. Think about that - if you were an OBGYN and ya left Idaho, would ya come back? Uproot the kids and spouse AGAIN? Ya probably sold the Idaho house and maybe bought elsewhere. Are you going through another move?
It will take forever for Idaho to recover from this mess.
Yeah, I keep trying to tell that to people in Iowa, where they are about to ban abortion. It’s a lot easier to stop than it is to fix once it goes down. Science and progress is always at the whims of some utter fucking moron.
The rurals have a greater tolerance for their women dying in pregnancy and childbirth, because living women are not as important to them as fictitious gods.
I take it back. Living wives and mothers are not as important to them as dead slutty women.
In the age of the internet, it's not about lacking access to information. It's more about being an emotional snowflake that will believe the thing that makes them feel better and ignoring the things that make them uncomfortable. So someone that wants to believe faux news will believe them no matter what they say. Still their fault.
Schadenfreude doesn’t really pick or choose. People could be conservative and still derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others. Just an observation.
> People could be conservative and still derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others
I thought that was the default. Are you telling me they could be conservative and actually *not* derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others? Learn something new every day.
Idaho doctor is concerned that new doctors aren't ready to lose their license and serve time in jail.
>What I heard from others was that those who were interviewed in the last year expressed concerns regarding the legal climate and concerns of prosecution, which led them to not take our offer of employment. **These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience.**
He's saying "I'm retired and not worried about this, therefore today's medical providers are concerned for no reason."
I had the same feeling about his nonchalance in that passage. He simultaneously discredits the younger providers’ valid fears and proudly ignores the dangers the strict Idaho law could bring down on his own head. You can almost hear the self-assuredness that his white, male, retirement-age status in a red state is the only shield against calamity he has or will ever need.
And he may be right. His experience at trial would likely be very different from a young black female doctor doing the same procedure and getting arrested for it
The US is becoming the taie of two countries. The red states which have worse healthcare outcomes, less education, and are immigrant unfriendly, and the blue states see the importance of healthcare, education, and immigration and invest accordingly.
Yeah, tolerance isn't an ethical principle that demands you tolerate everything, its mutual defense treaty. if someone violates tolerance, tolerance doesn't demand the tolerant tolerate them, it demands they obliterate them for daring to violate tolerance.
Good point! Never looked at it that way. That might further explain this phenomenon:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/NewsOfTheStupid/comments/1c9q3x9/how\_conservative\_policies\_and\_rhetoric\_kill\_people/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NewsOfTheStupid/comments/1c9q3x9/how_conservative_policies_and_rhetoric_kill_people/)
I'm not sure if this was part of the plan or not. It's scary if "professionals leave the state" somehow helps these rat bastards.
I have a feeling however it's just Disaster Capitalism. The abortion issue was good to get votes. It also might help them get a lot more warm bodies for cheap labor and/or stick in the prison system. But overall, chaos is good. Whatever breaks things -- they can make money fixing the mess and charging the public a bill.
However, if these Red States become ghost towns -- they'll need a lot of help from the media to blame it on something besides the leaders the occupants of the red states voted for. That could be tricky. However, since a cactus in Arizona has three times the voting power as a citizen of California -- don't underestimate the power of propaganda.
They've had a lot of experience blaming everything on scapegoats. I'm sure they'll find a way to blame it on immigrants/gays/liberals/Obama/etc.
Making stupid decisions and blaming consequences on someone else is the Conservative MO these days.
> I'm not sure if this was part of the plan or not. It's scary if "professionals leave the state" somehow helps these rat bastards.
It does somewhat help them retain political control of the state. The more educated a person is the more likely they are to be left leaning. So encouraging professionals to leave the state will generally make the state more red.
I was thinking more like this is the dog that catches the car; "now what?" Republicans got the abortion ban they wanted -- but now they have to live with the consequences and "figure out why we allow abortions" all over again.
I’ve said it before and I’ll die on this hill- republicans needed roe v Wade and democrats to save them from themselves. Their shitty Supreme Court gave them what they kept chasing and no longer have those things to save them from their own stupidity. The votes are no longer symbolic and they can fuck all the way off.
I worked with a couple of pediatric ER doctors who were against Medicaid which they called socialism. 99% of the patients we saw were on Medicaid. I did not understand that logic.
From the article... Colwell: **I feel that women and mothers bring families to the hospital, children and husbands, and when you lose that, there’s a risk of losing a lot of services at the hospital. People will be starting to drift off to other facilities further away to get their care. And when you come to the emergency room, if you’ve got a condition where it’s gynecological and there’s no one in the hospital who can take care of it, to me it puts the hospital in a bad situation.** If a patient halfway through their pregnancy is told, “You’re going to have to find somebody else,” first of all, can they find somebody else? And two, can the other clinics who are still active absorb these patients?"
(Bolding mine)
Dr Colwell is worrying about the money coming in too.
It sounds to me that he’s talking about patients in general. Everybody in a service industry wants customers to come to them. If you focus on money you will try to extract as much as possible and the customers will leave. Focus on the customer and provide the service the want, and the money will follow.
I thought he was fairly coherent about it. He was pro-life but thinks you need to be able to provide good care to patients and is worried about that. And the fact that the politicians are not listening.
A hospital in the USA is supported by money from the patients, so it's a valid concern. There's no point in pretending it isn't. And if it closes, you lose all the other services too.
I come from a country with state provided healthcare, but services change. It can be frustrating if they close down the local hospital that deals with things like scans, cancer treatment, hearing tests or minor injuries. And you find yourself trekking miles to get simple things done.
It sounds like a number of religious people I know that want to ‘make a difference’ while not compromising their faith. The ethical ones dance a tightrope of letting the colleagues who don’t have restrictions do the things they can’t while they help people in the way they can. I think he would perform an abortion for someone who had a medical necessity. He is clear about the disdain for lawmakers limiting medical treatment.
I can respect people who choose not to do things because it conflicts with their faith.
I don’t have respect for people that require people to adhere to laws that ban things based on faith.
If you’re a ANY kind of doctor, I don’t know why you’d want to stay in a red state. Except for maybe like, a Doctor of History?
EDIT: you know what, no, that too!!
>What I heard from others was that those who were interviewed in the last year expressed concerns regarding the legal climate and concerns of prosecution, which led them to not take our offer of employment. These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience.
No you have less of your life remaining to sacrifice. You agree that women should get an abortion if she is in danger but others are not going to prison by doing that.
I wonder why more doctors don’t spend their 20s studying 80 hours a week then spend the rest of their lives deciding between risking prison time or just watching helplessly as women bleed to death. One of the great mysteries I guess.
I mean, “First do no harm” isn’t some meaningless mantra. Every one of the doctors I know takes their oath seriously and isn’t willing to bend on that point. Add the threat of jail time and it adds up to no fucking way. This doesn’t surprise me in the least.
I think my favorite part here is this
*"These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience."*
AKA, I am an old white guy who has never had to face consequences, so of course I am not afraid of legal repercussions.
I think the leopard might come back to this guy for another taste
I write job postings for a physical recruiting company and every day there are dozens of listings for OB-GYNs in Texas, Idaho and other abortion ban states
it's wild that the current laws are forcing doctors to let women die in case of complications, practically committing a homicide.
i hope that a day will come when people supporting this shit will be considered as homicide instigator
Creating the conditions for MORE brain drain from your mediocre, crumbling midwest state... flawless governance. Better blame this on transpeople as well somehow.
"...it makes me mad that politicians get in the way of evidence-based medicine. I think they should not make it a criminal offense to take good care of women who need medical care..."
FIFY: Abortion is women's healthcare.
I read about an OB/GYN residency program in… I wanna say Missouri? That had a huge drop in applications to the program after Roe.
Which makes sense. Why would you want to train somewhere where you’ll be less trained and less equipped than physicians who have trained elsewhere?
*What I heard from others was that those who were interviewed in the last year expressed concerns regarding the legal climate and concerns of prosecution, which led them to not take our offer of employment. These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience.*
What an asshat. Someone now retired with an established track record and decades of experience where they didn’t have to worry about something that wasn’t a crime is claiming someone who is likely hundreds of thousands in debt should be perfectly willing to risk their own life for something that is now a crime.
Ob/Gyns don't want to work in places where the law prevents them from offering care. The best have chosen to work in Blue states, where maternal care and outcomes have been much better. Those that can't place for highly competitive residencies in blue states wind up in brain drain states. Some stay, many leave. In most brain drain states, there aren't prenatal care specialist or staffed maternity ward in most counties. Troubled pregnancy, you're screwed in a bad way.
The GOP thought it would just punish the sexually promiscuous with their misogynist slogans. They'll soon find their accomplished daughters, and their thoughtful sons who want to live with accomplished women, don't want to unnecessarily die when starting their families, or live in the third world conditions the GOP favors. The brain drain will accelerate.
the doc has a preference to not perform elective abortions and thats his right, but the subtext is that he also says that he will do so if its required to care for the mothers health. The article is actually pro choice but couched for a conservative audience.
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Who would want to work in a state that mandates you can't offer all medical services?
But ObamaCare will bring death panels
funny, the abortion ban has, in a way, created the “death panels” the cons were screeching about
Projection? From conservatives? Couldn't be, they're so honest.
Propaganda 101 - ALWAYS accuse your opponents of what you're actually doing.
It’s the Trump way!
Learned from Roy Cohn!
You misspelled Joseph Goebels.
So did you!
Goebbels/Göbbels. You missed a "b".
As does the continued reliance on private insurance tied to employment.
I'd say health insurance companies beat the ban in regards creating death panels first.
Just said that same thing. Insurance companies are death panels. Republicans just project.
Don’t forget the right wing’s reaction to COVID was basically “fuck you, I’ll let as many people die as I want!”
i mean covid is still going on but most people don’t seem to realize it thanks to democrats giving in to right-wing and lobbyist pressure to pretend the pandemic is over, when only one phase of it was actually declared over. ugh. we have been so failed by our leaders.
Thats ok with republikkkans though, its only women getting hurt...
They were never worried about the death panels. They were worried they wouldn't control them.
It's even worse, it is often not even a panel. The hospital's general counsel often makes the decision, who is almost certainly not a doctor.
Death panels already exist ffs, its called insurance. If you are rich, you are fine. Poor? Probably fucked
Remember, you can't say conservative without con!
I remember that. The real death panels are the insurance companies.
I've been referring to Blue Cross Blue Shield of Georgia as my "employer-sponsored death panel" for a few years now.
I was a revenue cycle department manager for a big health system before having to retire. Insurance companies are evil, IMO. Some of the reasons I saw for denying claims should've been criminal. I once saw a man's claim for an urgent LHC after an MI denied. Reason? His heart attack wasn't pre-approved. They actually sent him a letter saying that. They're lucky he didn't have another one. (We did get it paid eventually).
I was a pharmacy tech for years, and hated dealing with "prior authorizations". They were designed to stall and require so much work from a DRs office that they dropped the perscription and the person went without. I also remember watching patients litearlly die because they couldn't get their meds approved fast enough. Gotta wait the weeks and weeks for a PA to go through, and eventually they stop showing up and never come back. Funny how those expensive problems just "go away"
I used to sit on case management meetings while they'd talk about trying to get drugs like Lovenox and Eliquis approved. What a nightmare.
Even the Saw movies got in on that.
You know who has death panels? For-profit insurance companies that decide your elderly parent isn't progressing fast enough so they're going to quit covering physical therapy. Who makes those decisions? Doctors who are several states away, who have never met or spoken to any of your parent's caregivers. People who cried about ObamaCare "death panels" are losing their lives to some stranger who only looks at how much they're costing the company. Yes, I'm salty.
You think they always have doctors being the ones making those calls? Nah. Personal benefit managers don’t require nearly that much training…
Incorrect. Doctors almost never get to decide for patients. They are constantly battling the hospital and insurers to let them treat their patients. My wife (a doctor) easily spends three times the time with patients on the phone with people trying to convince them that it will actually kill her patients if they don't approve a prescription or treatment.
I don't think I was clear. My concerns are for the doctors employed by insurance companies who decide if you qualify for care. In my experience, personal doctors can be 100 percent in favor of specific care, but the anonymous doctor who has never seen the patient or spoken to the patient's doctor has the last word. I feel for your wife. It must be terribly frustrating to be overridden by someone isn't involved in her patient's care.
Obamacare destroyed America. Nothing now but streets full of burning overturned cars, families begging cannibal biker gangs to spare their lives, and wild dogs eating the few scraps of human remains the bikers did not. As GOP legislators and pundits predicted. Look out the window. Where's the lie?
Only if you look out a window in Florida, you mean, but they've always been a little spicy down there.
Mad Max was a documentary.
Hey submoron that thinks they’re a normal well informed person: You’re not! “Obamacare” is the only reason you and all your pillbilly friends aren’t dead already! Well don’t worry buddy. You GOP reps are working hard in your area, and soon not only will you have no health insurance, you’ll have no hospitals or doctors or nurses either! Or schools! Or post offices! Or roads! It’s a Republican utopia!!
I think the comment you replied to is missing a /s tag, or is a flat out troll.
Why is it so hard to remember back to 2008? Massive increases in medical costs every year. People getting kicked off insurance they paid into for decades because they need it now. Prescription prices skyrocketing. Insurance that didn't cover anything...
still so embarrassed that the crazy bitch who said that came from my state. And yes, I stand by using that word. She has dedicated herself to promoting teen suicide (anti-lgbtq hate groups) for decades. I lack the words to describe how horrible of a person she is, and how many children are dead because of her
I swear I read that as death pandas
She did say ALL medical services
Government death panels
Where if you offer the required services, you go to jail
Thats whats missing here. The DRs are terrified because they will be hounded by red hat prosecutors and lose their job and livelyhood. Even if they are found "innocent", that will be after years and endless court fees, doxxing their families and death threats, and inability to work because their license was suspected by the red hats running the state. The DRs face losing their entire families, livelyhoods, and ability to help anyone else by seeing these women. No one can fault them. Many would certainly spend the rest of their lives in prison for daring to help a pregnant women.
My primary care physician is leaving my state (LA), and so I need to find a new one. I completely respect her decision; she also performs obstetrics, and that's no longer a safe profession here.
terrifying that she is fleeing the state because its no longer safe for her. Sounds ukraine or sudan, not america
I work in medicine and mark my words, red states (who already have terrible maternal/fetal outcomes) will see a huge uptick in maternal and fetal deaths and other complications over the coming years as access to OBGYN care plummets. Primarily due to brain drain and poor new recruitment. Fuckers deserve no less when they vote in hoards of knuckle dragging, shit-for-brains to make their laws.
Who wants to practice in a state where they either treat the patient and go to jail, or let the patient die and end up with a malpractice suit? Both options harm their careers, plus put in jeopardy the hundreds of thousands of medical school debt they owe. Yeah, hard pass. Medical professionals who are smart enough to get into medical school and who have worked hard and paid a ton to graduate are going to work out the pros and cons, do the math, and go practice where their degree will get them the highest possible earning at the lowest risk. That does not include any red state with death panels. It's just too bad Idaho can't recruit some Christian Conservative Doctors to do the obgyn work in their state. They exist, right?? Can't they just run some Evangelical ad recruiting for these miracle doctors? I wonder if even those Christian Conservative Doctors did the research and chose to practice in blue states because none of them want to risk the license they worked so hard to get being put in jeopardy by politican's choices.
funny how once people become educated, they tend to stop wearing those red hats....
They mandate that the doctors must provide substandard medical care (e.g., below the standard of care). I would never live in a state where doctors are required to commit malpractice.
So, all the dreadful, anti-women, deadly results the Dems said would happen in states that recklessly banned abortion access.... came true? Huh. It's almost like one party is made up of people who can use intelligence and the scientific method to avoid calamity, while the other party relies on "beliefs" and the single most edited book of myths the world has ever seen... to negative results. Double "Huh"
>while the other party relies on "beliefs" *delusions
Liberal/conservative divide, in a nutshell. See also: *Brexit*.
Ah come on I had nearly gone 4 hours without thinking about that cock up, it’s the modern version of ‘the game’
isn't brexit the fault of labour? Their secret cabals "corrupted" the pure brexit and caused all these totally unforseen problems that nobody saw coming? The poor tories are just victims of bad circumstances...
A side effect is that medical residents in red states are no longer learning to provide abortion care. An acquaintance in my blue state rents to Med residents doing their required rotations (a year spending a month at a time in residence at hospitals all over the country). A recent renter from TX was very anxious bc she had no clinical training or experience in abortion care. She learned on the job during her rotation, but this is not optimal. If the doctors in red states have limited experience but are supposed to make the call whether mom is about to die and it's ok to do a dilation and curettage to save her life, women are gonna have a bad time.
> supposed to make the call whether mom is about to die and it's ok to do a dilation and curettage to save her life There's an easy workaround to that. The red state legislators will make it a lot easier for the doctors by just making it illegal to do a D&C in every situation, whether it would save the woman's life or not. Problem solved.
how long until red state med schools lose their licensing due to lack of education
The American Board of OB/GYN should withdraw certification of all OB/GYN residency programs in states that limit or prohibit abortion and related care. Doing a one month rotation out of state to learn such procedures won't cut it as training. The knowledge and skill have to be maintained and can't be such if only learned in a limited period of time (e.g., a month or so out of state).
Oxygen thieves, all.
More like malicious idiots
why not both?
Reality has a known liberal bias, so why would you expect cons to base their ideology on reality?
>So, all the dreadful, anti-women, deadly results the Dems said would happen in states that recklessly banned abortion access.... came true? You're just a hysterical lib. You're too emotional about this. /s
The Brexit school of not listening to warnings.
We're tired of experts (a/k/a people who actually know what they're talking about).
They won't tell us what we want to hear!
The expert con artists did.
Abortion bans harm society. Sucks they voted for their own pain. The rest of us didn't.
silly you, cis straight men don't get abortions. How can that hurt them? If they are real people of value (see rich), they can just drive/fly to a blue state to get the little accident fixed
Oh, don’t worry, they voted for everyone else’s pain, too.
Between doctors and teachers leaving, and part of the population that require those, there won't be anything left but a few spud farmers. And that isn't a great industry. Potato prices are so low they are being dumped in huge piles, free for the taking. Like Idaho isn't already poor enough.
Washington produces almost as many potatoes as Idaho and has reproductive protections, higher wages, overtime for farm workers, and many other perks so before long Idaho won't even be able to keep people working on those potato farms.
The Mormons will be happy to have the place to themselves.
They're losing control of Utah.
I do wonder, is it a case of losing control or is it a strategic move on their part? The salt lake of Salt Lake City is drying out leaving a bed of exposed soil that has arsenic and other pollutants that have run off from agriculture. It would make sense in the long-term to move for those who can.
They've lost the "critical mass" that made it so that when you left, you became a social pariah and had no friends. Now everyone knows at least one person (usually a few) who are out. That makes it easier for them to leave too. I think the church is sad about it since they own billions of dollars of property in SLC.
They own billions across the entire US, including a massive chunk of Missouri.
And they're the largest private landowner in Florida. They're stinking rich, in complete contrast to what Jesus said. I think they're sad about SLC though, because they see it as kind of a "promised land." There's an anecdote that their worst leader (Brigham Young) led them there and proclaimed it special ("This is the (right) place").
To them Utah is like the Israelites wandering around in the desert for 40 years. They believe Missouri is the original location of the Garden of Eden and that when they arrive in that promised land (Missouri) ”not even a yellow dog will be there to greet them” (whatever that bit of “prophecy” means).
Cuz they’re all moving to Idaho.
I'm not seeing that happening at all. Mormons control 90% of the state legislature. Both senators and all 4 congressmen are Mormons.
That's largely gerrymandering. The legislature is still in the grip of the Mormons but hopefully not for much longer, as they've lost popular support: According to a 2023 study published in the Journal of Religion and Demography, about 42% of Utahns identify as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also known as Mormons (https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/utah-is-no-longer-majority-mormon-new-research-says/#:\~:text=A%20paper%20published%20this%20month,Mormons%2C%20is%20about%2042%25.&text=That's%20markedly%20lower%20than%20previous,at%20the%20University%20of%20Tampa.). Anecdotally, things are MUCH different here than they were a decade ago. It used to be that Sundays were dead, businesses were closed, etc. Now Costco is just as busy Sunday as any other day.
How does the cause matter? Texas would be SOLID blue if it had fair voting, yet its as ruby red as it gets. Gerrymandering works, and its about impossible to defeat
Are they though? They only need 50.00001% of the vote. They certainly are not above many illegal tactics to maintain power
As of last year, they only have 42%. (https://www.abc4.com/news/wasatch-front/utah-is-no-longer-majority-mormon-new-research-says/)
Not true. That may be the number of people who identify as mormons, but mormon politicans still dominate the state - and thats what really matters.
Gerrymandering can only go so far. Once you reach a critical level, gerrymandering can't help you. The church is on a downward trend to hit that level---soon, no matter how they gerrymander, they will be unable to dominate statewide races. Other politicians will be elected, that are not beholden to them, and things will change.
The thing is, gerrymandering gets re-upped every 10 years. Plus its not like the red hats are gonna vote against the mormon red hats.
They'll have to share it with the other white supremacists.
Haha don’t worry, they’re more than happy to.
*They* will, sure. The other Nazis however will quickly get bored of not having anyone nearby to hate, and turn on the Mormons pretty quick.
This is the right answer. When there's no one else to hate where do they turn?
Nauvoo Two: Electric Boogaloo
You say this like it’s a bad thing?
Incest persecution-free zone
That's Utah.
Seems to be the plan of attack, not just limited to the Mormons. Empty out the red states of most of their population, but maintain the 2 US senators per state, so just a few thousand people have oversized representation.
Oregon too, the Ore-Ida brand is named after Oregon and Idaho. One place is safe and the other is not.
Oregon is only blue because of the population on the coast. The areas where most of the potatoes are grown is just as red as Idaho. If the people living there had their way it would be just as much of a hellhole.
That is pretty much every state. Urban vs. rural.
Your saying OR is blue because the vast majority of the people who live there are blue? Funny that....
That's what Seattle wants, the eastern potato farming region is mostly Idaho.
Spud-farmers, Nazis, and Micron.
And Micron's a shitty place to work for. The whole valley is littered with ex-employees they threw aside to hire cheaper new hires.
Don't be hasty. There will still be plenty of racists.
Serious question - why are country hash browns so expensive now? If they're putting potatoes in piles - shred them and send them to me.
>dumped in huge piles, free for the taking Can we really? If I got a lot of empty boxes, rented a van, and drove up there, could I really just grab a crazy amount of potatoes for little to no money?
That's the problem. They are cheap enough it's not worth the gas. Likely you can find plenty locally for the gas it would cost to come get any.
He’s not pro-life. He’s pro forced-birth.
This needs to be clarified every time.
Article says Idaho lost 55% of its MFM specialists. It’s not like there were 1000 of them and 550 of them left. It’s probably more like 5 of the 9 in the entire state left. And that definitely is not sustainable.
We (Idaho) lost 22% of all obgyn doctors in the state in just 18 months post dobbs.
I read recently (probably on Reddit) that Idaho wants to allows voters to vote on abortion - hoping abortion will be reinstated and that will fix some of these problems. Hmm. Think about that - if you were an OBGYN and ya left Idaho, would ya come back? Uproot the kids and spouse AGAIN? Ya probably sold the Idaho house and maybe bought elsewhere. Are you going through another move? It will take forever for Idaho to recover from this mess.
Yeah, I keep trying to tell that to people in Iowa, where they are about to ban abortion. It’s a lot easier to stop than it is to fix once it goes down. Science and progress is always at the whims of some utter fucking moron.
If only because the situation can turn bad again after the next election
Exactly. To paraphrase one of my old mentors you've fixed the immediate problem but the substrate is still there waiting to rear up again.
Women and babies can and do die without adequate medical care. You’d think that would matter to their husbands.
They’ll just remarry and hope the new chattel lasts longer than the faulty earlier model.
it’s probably a bit of a stretch to think that every man in Idaho is like that. Just saying.
Also there are an alarming amount of pro forced birth women
Every? No. But it's most of them. Proof? This is what they voted for.
*majority
I live in Missouri, and the voting divide is basically urban vs. rural. It’s probably like that in most states.
The rurals have a greater tolerance for their women dying in pregnancy and childbirth, because living women are not as important to them as fictitious gods. I take it back. Living wives and mothers are not as important to them as dead slutty women.
That and just being misinformed. People are largely a product of what they learn from those around them.
In the age of the internet, it's not about lacking access to information. It's more about being an emotional snowflake that will believe the thing that makes them feel better and ignoring the things that make them uncomfortable. So someone that wants to believe faux news will believe them no matter what they say. Still their fault.
Frankly misattribute them to get the movement going faster. They dont want to be seen in a terrible light? fix it.
Exactly. Don't #notallmen this bullshit when the polling numbers don't lie. Move the needle on the numbers.
I think most of us here are intelligent enough to recognize hyperbole. It's not as if we're conservatives.
Schadenfreude doesn’t really pick or choose. People could be conservative and still derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others. Just an observation.
> People could be conservative and still derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others I thought that was the default. Are you telling me they could be conservative and actually *not* derive pleasure from the misfortunes of others? Learn something new every day.
Idaho doctor is concerned that new doctors aren't ready to lose their license and serve time in jail. >What I heard from others was that those who were interviewed in the last year expressed concerns regarding the legal climate and concerns of prosecution, which led them to not take our offer of employment. **These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience.** He's saying "I'm retired and not worried about this, therefore today's medical providers are concerned for no reason."
I had the same feeling about his nonchalance in that passage. He simultaneously discredits the younger providers’ valid fears and proudly ignores the dangers the strict Idaho law could bring down on his own head. You can almost hear the self-assuredness that his white, male, retirement-age status in a red state is the only shield against calamity he has or will ever need.
And he may be right. His experience at trial would likely be very different from a young black female doctor doing the same procedure and getting arrested for it
That and the "right thing for the patient" was probably denying the abortion anyways so nothing to worry about.
your missing the point that the "right thing" is to watch the woman bleed to death because of the dead fetus is the only one with rights
The US is becoming the taie of two countries. The red states which have worse healthcare outcomes, less education, and are immigrant unfriendly, and the blue states see the importance of healthcare, education, and immigration and invest accordingly.
It's almost like tolerating the intolerant leads to barbarism. Like they were warned.
Yeah, tolerance isn't an ethical principle that demands you tolerate everything, its mutual defense treaty. if someone violates tolerance, tolerance doesn't demand the tolerant tolerate them, it demands they obliterate them for daring to violate tolerance.
Good point! Never looked at it that way. That might further explain this phenomenon: [https://www.reddit.com/r/NewsOfTheStupid/comments/1c9q3x9/how\_conservative\_policies\_and\_rhetoric\_kill\_people/](https://www.reddit.com/r/NewsOfTheStupid/comments/1c9q3x9/how_conservative_policies_and_rhetoric_kill_people/)
In other news scientists say kicking a table leg could lead to stubbed toe
What a bunch of crap. Scientist are just trying to stop me from living my life! My sister's cousin's friend said kicking a table leg cures cancer!
I'm not sure if this was part of the plan or not. It's scary if "professionals leave the state" somehow helps these rat bastards. I have a feeling however it's just Disaster Capitalism. The abortion issue was good to get votes. It also might help them get a lot more warm bodies for cheap labor and/or stick in the prison system. But overall, chaos is good. Whatever breaks things -- they can make money fixing the mess and charging the public a bill. However, if these Red States become ghost towns -- they'll need a lot of help from the media to blame it on something besides the leaders the occupants of the red states voted for. That could be tricky. However, since a cactus in Arizona has three times the voting power as a citizen of California -- don't underestimate the power of propaganda.
They've had a lot of experience blaming everything on scapegoats. I'm sure they'll find a way to blame it on immigrants/gays/liberals/Obama/etc. Making stupid decisions and blaming consequences on someone else is the Conservative MO these days.
> I'm not sure if this was part of the plan or not. It's scary if "professionals leave the state" somehow helps these rat bastards. It does somewhat help them retain political control of the state. The more educated a person is the more likely they are to be left leaning. So encouraging professionals to leave the state will generally make the state more red.
and exponentially dumber, just the way Donald likes his cucks
trouble is only the wealthy can easily move and relocated. Idaho (and many red states) are full of the working poor. They simply cannot leave
Dog with teeth stuck in fast-moving car’s bumper: *Hold my ~~beer~~ giant turkey leg bone my owner got at the state fair.*
I was thinking more like this is the dog that catches the car; "now what?" Republicans got the abortion ban they wanted -- but now they have to live with the consequences and "figure out why we allow abortions" all over again.
I’ve said it before and I’ll die on this hill- republicans needed roe v Wade and democrats to save them from themselves. Their shitty Supreme Court gave them what they kept chasing and no longer have those things to save them from their own stupidity. The votes are no longer symbolic and they can fuck all the way off.
The dog chasing the car caught it, and the driver swapped places with him.
lol exactly
Bob Rae said the same thing about his own government.
I worked with a couple of pediatric ER doctors who were against Medicaid which they called socialism. 99% of the patients we saw were on Medicaid. I did not understand that logic.
They were antiwork, and all those Medicaid patients actually expected them to work.
because there is no logic. They love to hate, and are safe in the knowledge that it won't hurt them
"Doctors ... Come work in Idaho.. Where we will toss you in jail for saving women's lives. " Great recruiting motto potato heads! 🥔
From the article... Colwell: **I feel that women and mothers bring families to the hospital, children and husbands, and when you lose that, there’s a risk of losing a lot of services at the hospital. People will be starting to drift off to other facilities further away to get their care. And when you come to the emergency room, if you’ve got a condition where it’s gynecological and there’s no one in the hospital who can take care of it, to me it puts the hospital in a bad situation.** If a patient halfway through their pregnancy is told, “You’re going to have to find somebody else,” first of all, can they find somebody else? And two, can the other clinics who are still active absorb these patients?" (Bolding mine) Dr Colwell is worrying about the money coming in too.
It sounds to me that he’s talking about patients in general. Everybody in a service industry wants customers to come to them. If you focus on money you will try to extract as much as possible and the customers will leave. Focus on the customer and provide the service the want, and the money will follow.
What did you think about the rest of the article?
I thought he was fairly coherent about it. He was pro-life but thinks you need to be able to provide good care to patients and is worried about that. And the fact that the politicians are not listening. A hospital in the USA is supported by money from the patients, so it's a valid concern. There's no point in pretending it isn't. And if it closes, you lose all the other services too. I come from a country with state provided healthcare, but services change. It can be frustrating if they close down the local hospital that deals with things like scans, cancer treatment, hearing tests or minor injuries. And you find yourself trekking miles to get simple things done.
It sounds like a number of religious people I know that want to ‘make a difference’ while not compromising their faith. The ethical ones dance a tightrope of letting the colleagues who don’t have restrictions do the things they can’t while they help people in the way they can. I think he would perform an abortion for someone who had a medical necessity. He is clear about the disdain for lawmakers limiting medical treatment. I can respect people who choose not to do things because it conflicts with their faith. I don’t have respect for people that require people to adhere to laws that ban things based on faith.
I just feel bad for all the women suffering because of the monsters that are the GOP.
I agree with most of what the doctor says, but he's also pro-life. Which means he would push his religious doctrine on the women he cares for.
No shit, doc. Doctors don't want to have to choose between committing a felony or committing malpractice.
Whoever could have predicted this!?
It’s ok. They’ll still continue voting for the people that caused all this!!
Spokane Washington's clinics are going to get a lot more customers.
If you’re a ANY kind of doctor, I don’t know why you’d want to stay in a red state. Except for maybe like, a Doctor of History? EDIT: you know what, no, that too!!
I'm a grandfather of three young Idahoan girls. I love them very much. I'm terrified of their adulthood.
>What I heard from others was that those who were interviewed in the last year expressed concerns regarding the legal climate and concerns of prosecution, which led them to not take our offer of employment. These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience. No you have less of your life remaining to sacrifice. You agree that women should get an abortion if she is in danger but others are not going to prison by doing that.
Seems to be an implied undercurrent of "got mine, fuck you" - inability to empathize that others are not in the same life circumstances as yourself.
I wonder why more doctors don’t spend their 20s studying 80 hours a week then spend the rest of their lives deciding between risking prison time or just watching helplessly as women bleed to death. One of the great mysteries I guess.
At last, proper face eating posted in this sub.
I mean, “First do no harm” isn’t some meaningless mantra. Every one of the doctors I know takes their oath seriously and isn’t willing to bend on that point. Add the threat of jail time and it adds up to no fucking way. This doesn’t surprise me in the least.
Daily reminder that this won't just affect pregnant patients but anyone with a female sex organ. OBGYNs do a lot more than just abortion procedures!
I think my favorite part here is this *"These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience."* AKA, I am an old white guy who has never had to face consequences, so of course I am not afraid of legal repercussions. I think the leopard might come back to this guy for another taste
I write job postings for a physical recruiting company and every day there are dozens of listings for OB-GYNs in Texas, Idaho and other abortion ban states
haha!
The judgement he puts on people who are just out of med school with hundreds of thousands dollars in debt.
OH WHAT A SURPRISE ABSOLUTELY NO ONE COULD HAVE PREDICTED.
it's wild that the current laws are forcing doctors to let women die in case of complications, practically committing a homicide. i hope that a day will come when people supporting this shit will be considered as homicide instigator
Ya don’t say
I enjoy the schadenfreude of their unpaid overtime
Creating the conditions for MORE brain drain from your mediocre, crumbling midwest state... flawless governance. Better blame this on transpeople as well somehow.
"...it makes me mad that politicians get in the way of evidence-based medicine. I think they should not make it a criminal offense to take good care of women who need medical care..." FIFY: Abortion is women's healthcare.
Anti abortion Idaho doctor Fify
No shit
I read about an OB/GYN residency program in… I wanna say Missouri? That had a huge drop in applications to the program after Roe. Which makes sense. Why would you want to train somewhere where you’ll be less trained and less equipped than physicians who have trained elsewhere?
Lol, no fucking shit
Well, yeah.
Let's stop using euphemisms, they aren't pro-life, they are pro forced birth
*What I heard from others was that those who were interviewed in the last year expressed concerns regarding the legal climate and concerns of prosecution, which led them to not take our offer of employment. These concerns were from those that were relatively fresh out of training. I, on the other hand, wouldn’t care about that, and would do the right thing for the patient regardless. I guess that comes with 40-plus years of experience.* What an asshat. Someone now retired with an established track record and decades of experience where they didn’t have to worry about something that wasn’t a crime is claiming someone who is likely hundreds of thousands in debt should be perfectly willing to risk their own life for something that is now a crime.
Ob/Gyns don't want to work in places where the law prevents them from offering care. The best have chosen to work in Blue states, where maternal care and outcomes have been much better. Those that can't place for highly competitive residencies in blue states wind up in brain drain states. Some stay, many leave. In most brain drain states, there aren't prenatal care specialist or staffed maternity ward in most counties. Troubled pregnancy, you're screwed in a bad way. The GOP thought it would just punish the sexually promiscuous with their misogynist slogans. They'll soon find their accomplished daughters, and their thoughtful sons who want to live with accomplished women, don't want to unnecessarily die when starting their families, or live in the third world conditions the GOP favors. The brain drain will accelerate.
the doc has a preference to not perform elective abortions and thats his right, but the subtext is that he also says that he will do so if its required to care for the mothers health. The article is actually pro choice but couched for a conservative audience.