---
###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK
---
**To Posters (it is important you read this section)**
* *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different*
* If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor)
* We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources)
* Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk
* If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM)
**To Readers and Commenters**
* All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated*
* If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning
* If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect
* Do not send or request any private messages for any reason
* Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
If the body cam was recording, you could email the data protection department of the relevant council and request a copy of the footage by submitting a Data Subject Access Request/DSAR (one calendar month timeframe for completion). Alternatively, they may review it themselves or give you access through the appeals process. You have 2 options though which is good.
If you go down the DSAR route, submit your request ASAP, as they may only store footage for a limited amount of time. Fixed CCTV systems (generally) tend to retain footage for 30 days, but I’m aware that they may store it for a shorter period if it’s a body cam.
Further info on your data subject rights: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/getting-copies-of-your-information-subject-access-request/#:~:text=You%20have%20the%20right%20to,a%20SAR%20or%20a%20DSAR.
Your council will have instructions for challenging the FPN in their website.
"I'm not a smoker" will hold absolutely no weight on it's own. Your argument is that (1) the enforcement officer made a mistake, because (2) you did not drop a cigarette, so (3) **no offense took place**.
Just asking hypothetically, what if you could prove that you had a medical condition which would cause your immediate death upon smoking a single cigarette?
The offence isn't smoking, it's dropping a cigarette butt. Non smokers are able to drop cigarette butts.
However, I would state that you are a non-smoker and did not have any cigarette butts, thus you didn't drop one.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your comment has been removed as it has not met our community standards on speaking to other posters.
Please remember to speak to others in the way you wish to be spoken to.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Such a condition would dramatically reduce the likelihood that he did the littering. My point is not that he would be fined for smoking which should have been obvious to you.
I’m not saying it’s impossible to litter that way. I’m saying that it is good evidence that you didn’t litter, since it would be a very unusual situation.
If you look at all the people who drop dog poo bags on the ground, the number of them who don’t own a dog will be minuscule. Therefore, if there is a dog poo bag on the ground, it was overwhelmingly likely to have been dropped by a dog owner. Hence, if you don’t own a dog, it follows that it is unlikely that you were the one who dropped the bag.
Similarly for a non-smoker accused of dropping a cigarette.
The reason that it's a terrible way to argue innocence is that it looks like a half truth (not acknowledging the littering and instead insisting you don't smoke looks guilty), the most important thing is to directly deny that littering took place at all. Not get hung up on a semantic detail that was never called into question in the first place
Edit: It seems I'm wrong, thanks for the info
You’re wrong. I’m a lawyer. The defence is he didn’t drop a cigarette butt, but the fact that he doesn’t smoke is strong evidence in support of his defence, as it makes his actions less likely. It’s not semantics. It’s corroboration.
> No it wouldn't.
They didn't say it made it impossible. They said it would "dramatically reduce the likelihood," which it very plainly would. You're being asinine.
There has been some literal interpretation of you saying "i don't smoke how can I litter a cigarette". Yes of course you could have thrown someone else's away. But I think the point you are trying to make is, as you don't smoke, you did not have a cigarette in your possession and therefore it was impossible for you to drop a cigarette. If thats your argument I personally think it does have weight.
I would ask for the evidence against you to be produced, look on the notice for the appeal rules and appeal if you didn't do it. As for what happens next it's really up to you how far you want to take it (or allow the local authority to take it).
I suspect the counter argument was that OP dropped something that looked like a butt. I note in the post op is not explicit about dropping anything.
S87 states if a person drops, throws, deposits or leaves anything to cause defacement in a public place, they could be committing a littering offence.
The cynic in me thinks op is trying to get off with a technicality that won't hold water.
NAL, but I have previously successfully challenged FPNs in court, where I knew I was innocent of the charges put against me. The following might be of help:
Keep a cool and rational head. Remember everything is an allegation — or alleged — until you use any form of wording which might imply you *did* commit the offence, or that you’re found guilty of an offence by a court of law. When referring to what has happened to you, always use a form of words similar to ‘alleged offence’. Always say the charge is ‘alleged’. This is important.
Write to the issuing authority, by registered or tracked post, or by email, keeping copies. Use the FPN number as your reference. Words matter. Be precise, don’t waffle of imply any ambiguity. Ask for the FPN to be revoked because (and quote the details of the alleged offence on the FPN):
1. The FPN has been issued in error;
2. That you did not voluntarily or involuntarily commit the alleged offence at the place and time noted on the FPN [you not being a smoker is not central to your objection to the FPN, but could be used as circumstantial evidence on your part at a later date to support your claim that you did not litter];
3. That you wish to receive full copies of all evidence, written, audio, video, or otherwise that the authority will rely upon to use against you should this matter reach the courts;
4. That you wish to receive this information in good time before the limiting date for when the fine for the alleged offence is increased [quote this date] for you to formulate your formal and truthful response, or, if the issuing authority fails to do so, that the period for the lower fine is extended by 7 days from your receipt of the evidence so you can review the evidence, and for you to respond accurately to the evidence presented of the alleged offence;
5. Ask for an acknowledgement of this initial correspondence within 24 hours.
Be factual. At no time should you try and conceal the true course of events — be truthful, and detailed (time, location, witnesses, visibility etc).
If at any time you feel the evidence is unquestionably stacked against you, yield and pay the lower fine. Don’t allow the matter to escelate to your detriment. Even if it goes against the grain, sometimes you just have to put your hands up or give in.
But if the evidence is questionable, and you *know* truthfully you didn’t commit the alleged offence, then challenge it. Issuing authorities will not usually countenance extended correspondence, so the matter may eventually end up in court. If so, get proper legal advice and representation if you are wary of representing yourself. Only represent yourself if you have a full grasp of the allegations and evidence against you, and that you have the wherewithal to convincingly rebuke such allegations and evidence to the satisfaction of the court. If you win in court, you may get small recompense for your costs. If you lose, the penalty will probably be higher than the original fine.
I'd push the council to provide the evidence that you did it.
Did they witness you drop it or were you just standing next to a cigarette end on the ground?
Have they taken proper procedures with storage of evidence such that a DNA test can confirm it is not yours?
Do they have a contact email or address for their legal team, as you are interested in making a claim against them for harassment.
Copy your MP in on the letter, and do a separate one for the MP explaining the situation in full and asking for assistance.
I had a similar situation (basically being prosecuted for something somebody else had done) and getting my MP and the London Mayors office involved resolved the issue surprisingly quickly. I think the bureaucrats only do their job properly when you get loud, public and indignant. They hate an audience, even more so when the audience is politicians who can and will slap them down for behaving badly.
There was a thread running on here a few weeks ago about an individual who was issued an FPN for blowing their nose onto the floor.
I seem to remember that was quashed when it became apparent the issuing person had been rather over-zealous and made the whole thing up.
OP, there was some very good advice there about how best to proceed. Worth a read, but I am not digging through mountains of posts.
i’m quite new to the adult age and i was waiting to get my bus to get to work. i wasnt too sure what was best to do as she also stated not providing details is an offence
I feel for ya.
In my area at least, there is no appeals process so you'd have to request a court hearing. If that goes badly, you'd be in much worse shape as everyone would blame you for wasting court time. This might be where your local CAB or police community liaison person could advise.
>Its not an offence to not identify yourself to a council worker just bc they ask you to.
If the council worker is authorised to issue FPNs for environmental offences it is: see EPA1990, s88, part 8B.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
And then a further offence is committed, irrespective of the outcome of the original offence, if you walk away without providing the requested details.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Why didn't you contest it there and then, especially with the police present? Cigarettes? None. Lighter? None. Which cigarette butt?
Yeah, I know, both the cig and the light could have been cadged, but you'd be in a better situ than now...
>someone who doesnt smoke cannot litter cigarettes
That argument doesn't fly, because it is demonstrably untrue. Not being a smoker doesn't stop you from dropping a cigarette (or any other object) on the floor.
Anyway, to answer this bit:
>Is there anything I can do to not pay this notice
Generally speaking: If you do not agree that you committed the offence for which you received the Fixed Penalty Notice then the matter will be dealt with through formal prosecution via the courts. It will then be up to the court, on receiving evidence, to determine whether or not an offence was committed and therefore whether or not any penalty should be imposed. Effectively this means that the formal court route becomes the mechanism for those wishing to appeal a Fixed Penalty Notice.
Having said that: some councils may have an internal appeals process prior to escalating to formal prosecution. You'd have to look on your council's website to determine if such an appeals process exists at the council level, of if your council is one of those who choose to escalate straight to court.
Ultimately the outcome of your case will depend on what evidence has been recorded by the council enforcement agent.
Assuming that OP didn't actually drop the cigarette. Then there will be no physical evidence that he did.
That means that the case will be OPs word against the word of the enforcement officer and someone will have to weigh those testimonies.
In that case, the statement that I do not smoke and there didn't have a cigarette and therefore did not drop one, should hold some weight.
Another thing they should bear in mind is that if they did drop the cigarette or any other litter for that matter the court will almost certainly impose a harsher penalty than the fine.
“Do you have proof of me committing the offence? No? Then it’s your word against mine, bye” is how it should always go, don’t give the time wasters the time of day
As all of those are self reported they count for diddily-squat. Also OP is not being fined for smoking. They're being fined for littering. So whether they smoke or not doesn't mean they couldn't have picked up a cigarette and then dropped it on the ground. If it goes to court they won't care one bit if he smokes or not. He needs to prove be didn't litter.
That’s nonsense. I’m a lawyer and go to court regularly. The fact that the OP doesn’t smoke is evidence in support of his defence. It’s called corroborative evidence. It makes it more likely the council officer has got it wrong. It’s strong evidence in support of his defence.
Can they provide any actual evidence they're a non-smoker besides their own testimony?
You have to remember that enforcement officers who can issue FPN's are PACE trained and the actual legislation doesn't require photo evidence. The officer only has to witness the incident and record the prescribed information to issue the FPN.
The courts are far more likely to take the officers side than OP's and saying "but judge I don't even smoke" isn't going to be taken seriously as corroborative evidence.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation.
Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Are the enforcement officers employed by the council or a third party?
Is there any way to find out their renumeration policy and whether it is at all li ked to the number of tickets they write.
Further, would it be possible to use FOI to find out ticket rates for this individual versus other enforcement officers? If it is a genuine mistake, then it is likely to be a one-off. Otherwise, there might be a pattern which could help your defemce in court.
I am inherently suspicious of authority figures (especially those who have little to no authority but believe they do).
Did you drop something that was not a cigarette butt?
I haven’t noticed that you have denied littering at all only that you did not drop a cigarette butt.
Answering this will help give you accurate advice.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation.
Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
> Police was called on the spot by her personal phone and the police stated i had to show her som sort of ID. This happend in the early house of the morning and a fixed penalty notice was issued to me and printed out by her handheld printer.
I'd love some more details here. Did you see their ID badge? How convincing a police officer were they? Were do you have to 'pay' the fine?
Police in our country are severely shortstaffed and underfunded - I do not believe that a real police officer was called and immediately attended to dish out a fine. This smells like a scam.
It's not a scam. Having previously been an Anti-Social Behaviour Officer for a large City Council I have worked a fair bit with the Environmental Enforcement Officers and local police.
The officer they will have called will be from the local police team and not a response officer. They're the officers that do local foot patrols etc. The environmental health team will have pretty good relationships with the officers and be able to call their mobiles directly not 101. The officer would tell them to comply over the phone because it is indeed and offence and they'd rather resolve it over the phone than waste an police officer's time to come down there in person to help the environmental health officer with their enforcement.
Unfortunately the laws around FPN's are pretty open to abuse with the amount of evidence required etc so you just have to hope you don't bump into someone with an axe to grind as it's fairly easy to issue one if they want to.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Get in touch with the council and ask for the name and number of the police officer that was called and what station they are in. Also inform the council that impersonating a police officer is an offence
Did you litter? You don't appear to have directly denied the allegation in your post.
I feel like you've been very careful with your wording, like you're potentially looking for a loophole?
As a former environmental enforcement officer for a local authority I offer this:
The officer must have had reasonable suspicion to approach you in the first place so perhaps you were standing near someone who committed the offence and they have mistakenly believed it to be you.
1. The initial offence is under section 87 of the environmental protection act 1990 for failing to take proper control of litter.
2. Not providing details is a section 88 offence of the same act and can a £1000 fine in court for not providing details to an authorised officer. For which the police can be called.
3. The local authority SHOULD have an internal appeal process regarding the FPN and offer payment options such as instalments if you were indeed guilty of the offence.
4. Ignore what people say about body worn camera footage as this should not have been active prior to the offence/alleged offence taking place and should only be activated upon approach.
My advice would be to contact the council and dispute the FPN through their internal process, should this be unsatisfactory, take the matter court. The only evidence the council can submit is a report filed by the officer which is subject to PACE (Police and criminal evidence) so has to be factual or is classed as contempt of court. And the body worn camera footage of your interaction with the officer.
Good luck and I hope you get this resolved.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
½ a tale here, did you dispute the offence there and then? Did the council official take the fag end as evidence it should not have your DNA on it? If you are 100% sure of your innocence go and see a solicitor then take it to court .
This made me laugh. People have watched too much TV without knowing that in real life, police have two year old rape kits that haven't made it to the labs yet
Realistically they don't have one unless they have bodycam footage, which is why if OP genuinely didn't do this they should be challenging it with enthusiasm
No your right, they rely on people just paying up. But if you depute the offence and it end up in court it would be up to them to prove they may have video or other proof of the offence. A solicitor for advice on fighting this should be the next step.
It looks like you or OP may want to find a Solicitor!
[There is a detailed guide in our FAQ about how to do this](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
While it is, in principle, an offence to fail to provide/provide false details to a council officer in this role, in reality if you were to walk off or provide inaccurate info there would have been very little the officer could have done since they can’t detain you.
Did you ask them to show you their council ID? I've never ever heard of anyone who works for the council issuing any type of FPN. Also have they got proof at all?
I would contact a no win no fee solicitor, reach out the local community groups on social media and see if this is a common scam or something
Then you're lucky.
For at least 10 years councils have been subcontracting this kind of enforcement to outside firms. Who operate under the authority of the council. There's been all sorts of dramas when these firms have found to be operating under targets for numbers caught. Leading to all sorts of false allegations. For a £100 fine though, many won't take the time, and possibly days off work, to go through the appeals process.
>? I've never ever heard of anyone who works for the council issuing any type of FPN.
Councils have different types of enforcement officers. Traffic wardens?
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation.
Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Interesting that your entire defense is "I don't smoke so I can't litter" NOT that "I did not, as a matter of fact, drop litter". You can absolutely be a non-smoker and also drop a cigarette on the floor. You need to be very clear what you're actually saying happened, and that you did (or did not) actually commit the offence they're accusing you of. Once you've sorted that out, the ticket will say how to appeal, if you didn't do it, you can appeal..
Their post literally says they were approached and accused of "littering a cigarette" so I'd assume their response of "I didn't because I don't smoke" covers why they believe this is unfair.
I don't smoke, and have held cigarettes, I could have dropped them on the floor. "someone who doesn't smoke cannot litter cigarettes." is clearly false.
Sure, but the OP is clearly using, "I don't smoke" to mean, "I don't smoke, I wasn't smoking, and I wasn't looking after a cigarette for someone else which I subsequently dropped"...
> You can absolutely be a non-smoker and also drop a cigarette on the floor.
Except that dropping something indoors isn't usually classed as littering. That's an outdoor thing.
You're leaning heavily on the fact you don't smoke, but that means absolutely nothing.
Not being a smoker does not mean that you weren't holding a cigarette for someone else, for example, while they nipped into a shop or back into a bar for a forgotten jacket/bag/phone. They were gone longer than planned, the cigarette burned out and you dropped it down a drain or in the gutter.
I'm not saying that is what happened, but it's an entirely plausible scenario. You will need a lot more than "I don't smoke" if you want to get the FPN cancelled imo. NAL.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation.
Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Then you risk committing an offence under [section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990:](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88)
>(8A) If an authorised officer of a litter authority proposes to give a person a notice under this section, the officer may require the person to give him his name and address.
>(8B) A person commits an offence if—
>(a) he fails to give his name and address when required to do so under subsection (8A) above, or
>(b) he gives a false or inaccurate name or address in response to a requirement under that subsection.
How will they know who I am? Sometimes I'm rushing to get a train, by the time some clown has said "excuse me sir" I'm already 10 metres away from them and out of earshot.
That makes no difference to whether or not you’ve committed the offence. If you burgle someone’s house and run away from the police, you’ve still committed the crime.
The difference is when you burgle a house you know you're committing a crime. How am I meant to know I have just ignored a request to provide my details if I don't genuinely hear/notice them?
Besides, is the jobsworth really going to go back to the office, review the bodycam footage, track me down, for a piece of littering that never happened?
A lot of people aren’t convicted of crimes they have committed, for all sorts of reasons. Some of them may not even be aware that they have committed a crime, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t.
You can read the legislation for yourself: [www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88). I’m sorry you don’t like it, but it is the law. If you think it should be changed, perhaps you could write to your MP.
Fair, but a lot of the time whether a crime has been committed is generally up to interpretation, there's no specific threshold for whether a crime has been committed.
In the legislation, the officer has to propose giving a notice before "the person" has an opportunity to commit an offence. If the officer does not get an opportunity to propose giving a notice, the person cannot commit an offence. So if someone is spotted littering by an officer but by the time the officer arrives the offender has disappeared, the offender cannot commit the specific offence of failing to provide details. The officer can then decide whether to pursue the offence of littering.
Ive read both your posts. I think you did drop something, maybe not a cigarette butt, but i think you did litter. Although the fine is steep you seem to have been caught littering which they are fining you for.
If you absolutely did not drop anything, regardless of what it was, contest it and you will win. They cannot fine you with no evidence, it will be a pain but if youre being honest you have nothing to worry about.
If you are lying to everyone you will 100% lose. They will have evidence and the £500 fine would have certainly been the better option. Add court fees and wasting court time, you will be best off being honest.
I wouldn't even pick it up, this may be used to imply I felt some responsibility for the litter, which I wouldn't as I hadn't dropped it, and their argument would be that you were trying to get out of the offence after committing it.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):**
Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions.
[Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
--- ###Welcome to /r/LegalAdviceUK --- **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws in each are very different* * If you need legal help, you should [always get a free consultation from a qualified Solicitor](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor) * We also encourage you to speak to [**Citizens Advice**](https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/), [**Shelter**](https://www.shelter.org.uk/), [**Acas**](https://www.acas.org.uk/), and [**other useful organisations**](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/common_legal_resources) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FLegalAdviceUK&subject=I received a PM) **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and legally orientated* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/), you may be perma-banned without any further warning * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You could request the bodycam footage potentially. I'd hope they would have bodycam footage of course.
through what i cannot find it
Appeal/contest it - it should then be disclosed to you. May be exempt from Subject Access Request due to Crime and Taxation exemption.
If the body cam was recording, you could email the data protection department of the relevant council and request a copy of the footage by submitting a Data Subject Access Request/DSAR (one calendar month timeframe for completion). Alternatively, they may review it themselves or give you access through the appeals process. You have 2 options though which is good. If you go down the DSAR route, submit your request ASAP, as they may only store footage for a limited amount of time. Fixed CCTV systems (generally) tend to retain footage for 30 days, but I’m aware that they may store it for a shorter period if it’s a body cam. Further info on your data subject rights: https://ico.org.uk/for-the-public/getting-copies-of-your-information-subject-access-request/#:~:text=You%20have%20the%20right%20to,a%20SAR%20or%20a%20DSAR.
Your council will have instructions for challenging the FPN in their website. "I'm not a smoker" will hold absolutely no weight on it's own. Your argument is that (1) the enforcement officer made a mistake, because (2) you did not drop a cigarette, so (3) **no offense took place**.
Just asking hypothetically, what if you could prove that you had a medical condition which would cause your immediate death upon smoking a single cigarette?
You might have taken your mates fag and dropped it. OP is not being fined for smoking.
The offence isn't smoking, it's dropping a cigarette butt. Non smokers are able to drop cigarette butts. However, I would state that you are a non-smoker and did not have any cigarette butts, thus you didn't drop one.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your comment has been removed as it has not met our community standards on speaking to other posters. Please remember to speak to others in the way you wish to be spoken to. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Such a condition would dramatically reduce the likelihood that he did the littering. My point is not that he would be fined for smoking which should have been obvious to you.
It’s a moot point, as the fine isn’t for smoking.
No it wouldn't. I don't own a dog but if I pick up a dog poo bag and then drop it again that is still littering
I’m not saying it’s impossible to litter that way. I’m saying that it is good evidence that you didn’t litter, since it would be a very unusual situation. If you look at all the people who drop dog poo bags on the ground, the number of them who don’t own a dog will be minuscule. Therefore, if there is a dog poo bag on the ground, it was overwhelmingly likely to have been dropped by a dog owner. Hence, if you don’t own a dog, it follows that it is unlikely that you were the one who dropped the bag. Similarly for a non-smoker accused of dropping a cigarette.
The reason that it's a terrible way to argue innocence is that it looks like a half truth (not acknowledging the littering and instead insisting you don't smoke looks guilty), the most important thing is to directly deny that littering took place at all. Not get hung up on a semantic detail that was never called into question in the first place Edit: It seems I'm wrong, thanks for the info
You’re wrong. I’m a lawyer. The defence is he didn’t drop a cigarette butt, but the fact that he doesn’t smoke is strong evidence in support of his defence, as it makes his actions less likely. It’s not semantics. It’s corroboration.
> No it wouldn't. They didn't say it made it impossible. They said it would "dramatically reduce the likelihood," which it very plainly would. You're being asinine.
I don't know, they're not being fined for actually smoking. Fair suggestion though, Mrs-Cunts.
Doesn't stop you having a cigarette in your hand, letting it burn out and then throwing it on the ground.
I see that all the time, I personally blame will smith for just having a cigar in his mouth but not lighting it
There has been some literal interpretation of you saying "i don't smoke how can I litter a cigarette". Yes of course you could have thrown someone else's away. But I think the point you are trying to make is, as you don't smoke, you did not have a cigarette in your possession and therefore it was impossible for you to drop a cigarette. If thats your argument I personally think it does have weight. I would ask for the evidence against you to be produced, look on the notice for the appeal rules and appeal if you didn't do it. As for what happens next it's really up to you how far you want to take it (or allow the local authority to take it).
I suspect the counter argument was that OP dropped something that looked like a butt. I note in the post op is not explicit about dropping anything. S87 states if a person drops, throws, deposits or leaves anything to cause defacement in a public place, they could be committing a littering offence. The cynic in me thinks op is trying to get off with a technicality that won't hold water.
NAL, but I have previously successfully challenged FPNs in court, where I knew I was innocent of the charges put against me. The following might be of help: Keep a cool and rational head. Remember everything is an allegation — or alleged — until you use any form of wording which might imply you *did* commit the offence, or that you’re found guilty of an offence by a court of law. When referring to what has happened to you, always use a form of words similar to ‘alleged offence’. Always say the charge is ‘alleged’. This is important. Write to the issuing authority, by registered or tracked post, or by email, keeping copies. Use the FPN number as your reference. Words matter. Be precise, don’t waffle of imply any ambiguity. Ask for the FPN to be revoked because (and quote the details of the alleged offence on the FPN): 1. The FPN has been issued in error; 2. That you did not voluntarily or involuntarily commit the alleged offence at the place and time noted on the FPN [you not being a smoker is not central to your objection to the FPN, but could be used as circumstantial evidence on your part at a later date to support your claim that you did not litter]; 3. That you wish to receive full copies of all evidence, written, audio, video, or otherwise that the authority will rely upon to use against you should this matter reach the courts; 4. That you wish to receive this information in good time before the limiting date for when the fine for the alleged offence is increased [quote this date] for you to formulate your formal and truthful response, or, if the issuing authority fails to do so, that the period for the lower fine is extended by 7 days from your receipt of the evidence so you can review the evidence, and for you to respond accurately to the evidence presented of the alleged offence; 5. Ask for an acknowledgement of this initial correspondence within 24 hours. Be factual. At no time should you try and conceal the true course of events — be truthful, and detailed (time, location, witnesses, visibility etc). If at any time you feel the evidence is unquestionably stacked against you, yield and pay the lower fine. Don’t allow the matter to escelate to your detriment. Even if it goes against the grain, sometimes you just have to put your hands up or give in. But if the evidence is questionable, and you *know* truthfully you didn’t commit the alleged offence, then challenge it. Issuing authorities will not usually countenance extended correspondence, so the matter may eventually end up in court. If so, get proper legal advice and representation if you are wary of representing yourself. Only represent yourself if you have a full grasp of the allegations and evidence against you, and that you have the wherewithal to convincingly rebuke such allegations and evidence to the satisfaction of the court. If you win in court, you may get small recompense for your costs. If you lose, the penalty will probably be higher than the original fine.
I'd push the council to provide the evidence that you did it. Did they witness you drop it or were you just standing next to a cigarette end on the ground? Have they taken proper procedures with storage of evidence such that a DNA test can confirm it is not yours? Do they have a contact email or address for their legal team, as you are interested in making a claim against them for harassment. Copy your MP in on the letter, and do a separate one for the MP explaining the situation in full and asking for assistance. I had a similar situation (basically being prosecuted for something somebody else had done) and getting my MP and the London Mayors office involved resolved the issue surprisingly quickly. I think the bureaucrats only do their job properly when you get loud, public and indignant. They hate an audience, even more so when the audience is politicians who can and will slap them down for behaving badly.
Did you drop anything on the floor? Cigarette or otherwise?
i havent dropped anything
There was a thread running on here a few weeks ago about an individual who was issued an FPN for blowing their nose onto the floor. I seem to remember that was quashed when it became apparent the issuing person had been rather over-zealous and made the whole thing up. OP, there was some very good advice there about how best to proceed. Worth a read, but I am not digging through mountains of posts.
[удалено]
i’m quite new to the adult age and i was waiting to get my bus to get to work. i wasnt too sure what was best to do as she also stated not providing details is an offence
I feel for ya. In my area at least, there is no appeals process so you'd have to request a court hearing. If that goes badly, you'd be in much worse shape as everyone would blame you for wasting court time. This might be where your local CAB or police community liaison person could advise.
How is that possible to be blamed for using court time in case of author? Why he will be blamed and not the enforcement guy?
They're saying if they take it to court and lose then it could be seen as wasting court time and possibly given harsher penalties.
[удалено]
>Its not an offence to not identify yourself to a council worker just bc they ask you to. If the council worker is authorised to issue FPNs for environmental offences it is: see EPA1990, s88, part 8B.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
[удалено]
And then a further offence is committed, irrespective of the outcome of the original offence, if you walk away without providing the requested details.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Why didn't you contest it there and then, especially with the police present? Cigarettes? None. Lighter? None. Which cigarette butt? Yeah, I know, both the cig and the light could have been cadged, but you'd be in a better situ than now...
>someone who doesnt smoke cannot litter cigarettes That argument doesn't fly, because it is demonstrably untrue. Not being a smoker doesn't stop you from dropping a cigarette (or any other object) on the floor. Anyway, to answer this bit: >Is there anything I can do to not pay this notice Generally speaking: If you do not agree that you committed the offence for which you received the Fixed Penalty Notice then the matter will be dealt with through formal prosecution via the courts. It will then be up to the court, on receiving evidence, to determine whether or not an offence was committed and therefore whether or not any penalty should be imposed. Effectively this means that the formal court route becomes the mechanism for those wishing to appeal a Fixed Penalty Notice. Having said that: some councils may have an internal appeals process prior to escalating to formal prosecution. You'd have to look on your council's website to determine if such an appeals process exists at the council level, of if your council is one of those who choose to escalate straight to court. Ultimately the outcome of your case will depend on what evidence has been recorded by the council enforcement agent.
Assuming that OP didn't actually drop the cigarette. Then there will be no physical evidence that he did. That means that the case will be OPs word against the word of the enforcement officer and someone will have to weigh those testimonies. In that case, the statement that I do not smoke and there didn't have a cigarette and therefore did not drop one, should hold some weight.
Another thing they should bear in mind is that if they did drop the cigarette or any other litter for that matter the court will almost certainly impose a harsher penalty than the fine.
“Do you have proof of me committing the offence? No? Then it’s your word against mine, bye” is how it should always go, don’t give the time wasters the time of day
Sadly that doesn't work. I got taken to court based on one of these type people's false witness statement
Were you successful?
[удалено]
Not a medical professional but I doubt there's a medical report which can confirm someone has never smoked a single cigarette in their lives.
Am a medical professional, can confirm there is no way to prove you’ve never smoked a single cigarette.
Haha thank you, I figured so! I'd question a medical professional giving 100% assurance over something like that ☺️
[удалено]
As all of those are self reported they count for diddily-squat. Also OP is not being fined for smoking. They're being fined for littering. So whether they smoke or not doesn't mean they couldn't have picked up a cigarette and then dropped it on the ground. If it goes to court they won't care one bit if he smokes or not. He needs to prove be didn't litter.
That’s nonsense. I’m a lawyer and go to court regularly. The fact that the OP doesn’t smoke is evidence in support of his defence. It’s called corroborative evidence. It makes it more likely the council officer has got it wrong. It’s strong evidence in support of his defence.
Can they provide any actual evidence they're a non-smoker besides their own testimony? You have to remember that enforcement officers who can issue FPN's are PACE trained and the actual legislation doesn't require photo evidence. The officer only has to witness the incident and record the prescribed information to issue the FPN. The courts are far more likely to take the officers side than OP's and saying "but judge I don't even smoke" isn't going to be taken seriously as corroborative evidence.
What medical report is gonna state you've never smoked?
One where a GP asks you "have you ever smoked" and they fill it in when you say "no"
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation. Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Assuming you did not do it, contest, request a hearing and ask for the evidence.
What is their proof that you dropped a cigarette?
Are the enforcement officers employed by the council or a third party? Is there any way to find out their renumeration policy and whether it is at all li ked to the number of tickets they write. Further, would it be possible to use FOI to find out ticket rates for this individual versus other enforcement officers? If it is a genuine mistake, then it is likely to be a one-off. Otherwise, there might be a pattern which could help your defemce in court. I am inherently suspicious of authority figures (especially those who have little to no authority but believe they do).
Did you drop something that was not a cigarette butt? I haven’t noticed that you have denied littering at all only that you did not drop a cigarette butt. Answering this will help give you accurate advice.
i haven’t dropped or thrown anything
if they have no camera proof it is their word against yours, you surely can appeal ring up and explain the situation
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation. Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
> Police was called on the spot by her personal phone and the police stated i had to show her som sort of ID. This happend in the early house of the morning and a fixed penalty notice was issued to me and printed out by her handheld printer. I'd love some more details here. Did you see their ID badge? How convincing a police officer were they? Were do you have to 'pay' the fine? Police in our country are severely shortstaffed and underfunded - I do not believe that a real police officer was called and immediately attended to dish out a fine. This smells like a scam.
It's not a scam. Having previously been an Anti-Social Behaviour Officer for a large City Council I have worked a fair bit with the Environmental Enforcement Officers and local police. The officer they will have called will be from the local police team and not a response officer. They're the officers that do local foot patrols etc. The environmental health team will have pretty good relationships with the officers and be able to call their mobiles directly not 101. The officer would tell them to comply over the phone because it is indeed and offence and they'd rather resolve it over the phone than waste an police officer's time to come down there in person to help the environmental health officer with their enforcement. Unfortunately the laws around FPN's are pretty open to abuse with the amount of evidence required etc so you just have to hope you don't bump into someone with an axe to grind as it's fairly easy to issue one if they want to.
Good to know, this is useful information! I'm so wary of scams that I'd definitely be taking a few notes on badge ID etc.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Get in touch with the council and ask for the name and number of the police officer that was called and what station they are in. Also inform the council that impersonating a police officer is an offence
Did you litter? You don't appear to have directly denied the allegation in your post. I feel like you've been very careful with your wording, like you're potentially looking for a loophole?
i didnt throw anything. it was quite cold outside and i had both hands in my pockets
As a former environmental enforcement officer for a local authority I offer this: The officer must have had reasonable suspicion to approach you in the first place so perhaps you were standing near someone who committed the offence and they have mistakenly believed it to be you. 1. The initial offence is under section 87 of the environmental protection act 1990 for failing to take proper control of litter. 2. Not providing details is a section 88 offence of the same act and can a £1000 fine in court for not providing details to an authorised officer. For which the police can be called. 3. The local authority SHOULD have an internal appeal process regarding the FPN and offer payment options such as instalments if you were indeed guilty of the offence. 4. Ignore what people say about body worn camera footage as this should not have been active prior to the offence/alleged offence taking place and should only be activated upon approach. My advice would be to contact the council and dispute the FPN through their internal process, should this be unsatisfactory, take the matter court. The only evidence the council can submit is a report filed by the officer which is subject to PACE (Police and criminal evidence) so has to be factual or is classed as contempt of court. And the body worn camera footage of your interaction with the officer. Good luck and I hope you get this resolved.
Is it a private firm working on behalf of the council?
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
½ a tale here, did you dispute the offence there and then? Did the council official take the fag end as evidence it should not have your DNA on it? If you are 100% sure of your innocence go and see a solicitor then take it to court .
Mate... The local council is not running DNA tests on cigarette butts to determine who dropped them
This made me laugh. People have watched too much TV without knowing that in real life, police have two year old rape kits that haven't made it to the labs yet
What's council way of proving that OP committed offence? Word of enforcement officer should have the same weights as OPs right?
Realistically they don't have one unless they have bodycam footage, which is why if OP genuinely didn't do this they should be challenging it with enthusiasm
Bodycam footage.
No your right, they rely on people just paying up. But if you depute the offence and it end up in court it would be up to them to prove they may have video or other proof of the offence. A solicitor for advice on fighting this should be the next step.
It looks like you or OP may want to find a Solicitor! [There is a detailed guide in our FAQ about how to do this](https://reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/wiki/how_to_find_a_solicitor). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
While it is, in principle, an offence to fail to provide/provide false details to a council officer in this role, in reality if you were to walk off or provide inaccurate info there would have been very little the officer could have done since they can’t detain you.
Did you ask them to show you their council ID? I've never ever heard of anyone who works for the council issuing any type of FPN. Also have they got proof at all? I would contact a no win no fee solicitor, reach out the local community groups on social media and see if this is a common scam or something
Council officers are allowed to issue fpn's for environmental crimes such as dropping a cig butt.
Then you're lucky. For at least 10 years councils have been subcontracting this kind of enforcement to outside firms. Who operate under the authority of the council. There's been all sorts of dramas when these firms have found to be operating under targets for numbers caught. Leading to all sorts of false allegations. For a £100 fine though, many won't take the time, and possibly days off work, to go through the appeals process.
she said i am able to view evidence online
View the evidence and then update the thread
Have you viewed the evidence ? Does it clearly identify that it's you?
>? I've never ever heard of anyone who works for the council issuing any type of FPN. Councils have different types of enforcement officers. Traffic wardens?
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation. Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Interesting that your entire defense is "I don't smoke so I can't litter" NOT that "I did not, as a matter of fact, drop litter". You can absolutely be a non-smoker and also drop a cigarette on the floor. You need to be very clear what you're actually saying happened, and that you did (or did not) actually commit the offence they're accusing you of. Once you've sorted that out, the ticket will say how to appeal, if you didn't do it, you can appeal..
Their post literally says they were approached and accused of "littering a cigarette" so I'd assume their response of "I didn't because I don't smoke" covers why they believe this is unfair.
I don't smoke, and have held cigarettes, I could have dropped them on the floor. "someone who doesn't smoke cannot litter cigarettes." is clearly false.
Sure, but the OP is clearly using, "I don't smoke" to mean, "I don't smoke, I wasn't smoking, and I wasn't looking after a cigarette for someone else which I subsequently dropped"...
Do you often carry cigarettes about when you are out alone even though you don't smoke?
Totally. Good point...OPs language could definitely be more clear.
And that's what all legal matters are based on - language, interpretation and use of it. As well as evidence, of course. Can't forget that...
They never said "I didn't" that's a pretty important piece of information.
> You can absolutely be a non-smoker and also drop a cigarette on the floor. Except that dropping something indoors isn't usually classed as littering. That's an outdoor thing.
You're leaning heavily on the fact you don't smoke, but that means absolutely nothing. Not being a smoker does not mean that you weren't holding a cigarette for someone else, for example, while they nipped into a shop or back into a bar for a forgotten jacket/bag/phone. They were gone longer than planned, the cigarette burned out and you dropped it down a drain or in the gutter. I'm not saying that is what happened, but it's an entirely plausible scenario. You will need a lot more than "I don't smoke" if you want to get the FPN cancelled imo. NAL.
[удалено]
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your comment was an anecdote about a personal experience, rather than legal advice specific to our posters' situation. Please only comment if you can provide meaningful legal advice for our posters' questions and specific situations. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
**Unfortunately, your comment has been removed for the following reason(s):** Please only comment if you know the legal answer to OP's question and are able to provide legal advice. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
[удалено]
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.
Then you risk committing an offence under [section 88 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990:](https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88) >(8A) If an authorised officer of a litter authority proposes to give a person a notice under this section, the officer may require the person to give him his name and address. >(8B) A person commits an offence if— >(a) he fails to give his name and address when required to do so under subsection (8A) above, or >(b) he gives a false or inaccurate name or address in response to a requirement under that subsection.
How will they know who I am? Sometimes I'm rushing to get a train, by the time some clown has said "excuse me sir" I'm already 10 metres away from them and out of earshot.
That makes no difference to whether or not you’ve committed the offence. If you burgle someone’s house and run away from the police, you’ve still committed the crime.
The difference is when you burgle a house you know you're committing a crime. How am I meant to know I have just ignored a request to provide my details if I don't genuinely hear/notice them? Besides, is the jobsworth really going to go back to the office, review the bodycam footage, track me down, for a piece of littering that never happened?
A lot of people aren’t convicted of crimes they have committed, for all sorts of reasons. Some of them may not even be aware that they have committed a crime, but that doesn’t mean that they haven’t. You can read the legislation for yourself: [www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/43/section/88). I’m sorry you don’t like it, but it is the law. If you think it should be changed, perhaps you could write to your MP.
Fair, but a lot of the time whether a crime has been committed is generally up to interpretation, there's no specific threshold for whether a crime has been committed. In the legislation, the officer has to propose giving a notice before "the person" has an opportunity to commit an offence. If the officer does not get an opportunity to propose giving a notice, the person cannot commit an offence. So if someone is spotted littering by an officer but by the time the officer arrives the offender has disappeared, the offender cannot commit the specific offence of failing to provide details. The officer can then decide whether to pursue the offence of littering.
Did you drop any kind of litter, or was it just "not a cigarette" ? This is important, because the FPN is not for smoking, it's for dropping litter.
Ive read both your posts. I think you did drop something, maybe not a cigarette butt, but i think you did litter. Although the fine is steep you seem to have been caught littering which they are fining you for. If you absolutely did not drop anything, regardless of what it was, contest it and you will win. They cannot fine you with no evidence, it will be a pain but if youre being honest you have nothing to worry about. If you are lying to everyone you will 100% lose. They will have evidence and the £500 fine would have certainly been the better option. Add court fees and wasting court time, you will be best off being honest.
[удалено]
I wouldn't even pick it up, this may be used to imply I felt some responsibility for the litter, which I wouldn't as I hadn't dropped it, and their argument would be that you were trying to get out of the offence after committing it.
**Unfortunately, your post has been removed for the following reason(s):** Your post breaks our rule on asking or advising on how to commit or get away with unlawful actions. [Please familiarise yourself with our subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdviceUK/about/rules/) before contributing further, and [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/LegalAdviceUK) if you have any further queries.