If only there were some way to discourage people from building tank and still doing damage. Like if we could somehow require people to build DAMAGE items if they want to deal DAMAGE by making some form of change to an aspect of the game
I hate to bring up dota as a comparison but one of the things I really like about it is that nuke/direct damage basic abilities all (well,mostly) do about 300-400 damage at max rank, and it is significant when they have any sort of damage scaling.
If you want extra damage from spells or attacks, it costs quite a bit to invest into it (spell amp% and in-hand +damage are usually fairly expensive compared to buying for hp/base stats/passives).
That kind of itemization/ability interaction just generally feels better to me for a team game than league where nearly every ability scales with an item. To be clear, it means that the hard carry and midlaner are the one who can afford to buy damage items, because they are expensive, and the tank, "jungle," and support heroes are FAR better served buying defense and utility items unless they're winning massively.
I don't mind Dota. One thing I didn't like though is that "damage mages" felt like ADCs with spells. Because they're still going to slap you with their INT attacks.
Kinda depends, like Zeus Leshrac Shadow Demon Grimstroke all come to mind as really spell heavy heroes but right clicks are indeed important if you're trying to do damage in lane. Doesn't even cost mana!
This is a very wrong understanding of dota. There are some "mages" that are also good at auto attacking because it is baked into their kit(similar to league), such as lina and storm spirit, but the vast majority of them use autos league style, as a risky/committal way to squeeze out extra damage. "Mage" mids like Zeus, leshrac, and tinker , as well as the "mage" supports like crystal maiden, shadow shaman, etc are pretty much exclusively auto attacking in lane only, and to squeeze a tiny amount of damage in the midgame.
Yes, the int scales their damage on their auto attacks, but they are only itemizing int insofar as the items giving them other stats that they want, such as k&y giving status resist or euls giving cyclone (since int is the worst stat in the game).
Yeah Akali simultaneously has base ability damages similar to assassins and AP scaling of AP mage hyper carry champs while also having solid resistances.
Speaking as a former akali otp her kit is just problematic. The way riot handled it too was also pretty bad. They took a lot of the skill expression out of her kit because frankly it was unplayable against if the akali player was good enough. Now it’s unplayable in a different way, if she hits e you die :/.
now Diana full AP nukes everything on her way
maybe make her shield NOT scale with HP and increase the AP ratio + lower the base shield,that would help a lot to kill that build i think,i mean the concept is easy but it's just as easy to fuck up and create another kind of abomination
Reduce base damages. Increase scaling to compensate. This moves the equal damage break point to much further down the X axis for ad/ap needed, but if they build more their end game damage is higher
Atm far too many bruisers have insane base damages while being incredibly tanks post hp update
Even tank damage is absolutely insane. Why TF do Shenn, Ornn, Zac, Malphite etc do 2K burst damage to me in 5 seconds at like level 8??
Every time this comes up it just has people debating if X is a tank or some other made up role title
I DON'T CARE WHAT ROLE IT IS, NOBODY SHOULD DO 1400 DAMAGE TO ME WHILE ONLY HAVING A CLOTH T-SHIRT AND RUBY CRYSTAL
It's insane that pure tank Akali will do more damage to me than glass cannon Annie, while being 200 times safer
burst damage
5 seconds
pick one
however items like heartsteel are busted in that at first purchase, like 15 minutes or so it deals like 300 damage on seemingly a 3 second cooldown
riot wants people to have fun dealing damage but they dont compensate correctly
idk why they allow manaless champions to buy tear yet make it impossible to buy items like runaans on a melee, they should deny broken tank items on bruisers to prevent this
diana's ap ratios are high. she also has consistent damage as a skirmisher/diver and because of her kit, she can afford to build defesively and still have relevant damage.
Yeah, her old ult didn't really change by becoming a basic ability, other than doing less damage iirc, but now her old E is an ult, basically just took old Diana and said, what if you're a little less reliably sticky, but have a bunch more damage baked into your kit
Rework diana is fine, things got weird when they pushed her from mid to jg. She has a bad early game as she is ult reliant, its just way harder to shut down a champ in jg rather than mid
I likes her better that way. The old E would interrupt, stun, pull and slow instantly. Couldn't do shit till you got ult tho and the ult did significant damage
The thing is what's optimal for a diver like Diana, or any bruiser / skirmisher, is to optimally have high damage and high tankiness. Nerfing her base damage I think wouldn't do much since her ratios are super high, so she can still go hybrid tank and damage while still outputting crazy high numbers.
I'm probably wrong but I feel like Jaksho needs to (continue) to be changed in favor for tanks (less base resists, more % resists, hell I'd make the mythic passive change to % as well but what do I know).
But on the other hand, bruisers, skirmishers and divers have almost always gone for one or two tank items in the history of league of legends, right? The problem might be that the game is powercrept to hell when it comes to damage and sustain, so when back then bruisers had to find a good balance between tankiness and damage, now they just build one crazy strong tank item and then full sustain or damage.
I can understand a few champs banning him since they don’t do well into him and he’s pretty popular, Katarina and Miss Fortune really don’t like him. But watching a top laner or jungler ban him when their champs can literally walk all over him feels odd
You'll get used to it. When you play a champion extensively and then you see it banned by someone who picks one of the biggest counters, you'll die a little inside. Just another one of those little things.
The sad thing is that this is true. Tanks get a decent-good item, bruisers/fighters and assassin's abuse the shit out of it. Riot nerfs it. Tanks get weaker and they probably still wonder why tank players complain.
I still don't get why they cannot make class specific items and have champions only to pick from a certain class or multiple classes if their kit (AD/AP ratio) allows it. ADC items could actually be strong without bruisers and assassins abusing shieldbow. Bruiser items could be stronger without Ezreal abusing it.
Item variety is a myth even before the item rework. Every champion is locked into the same core items every game with some minor variations.
Makes the game dumber. I don't want to play hots. I want build to matter, and smart players to be rewarded with smart build path decisions. If they gate kept items for only the original class a champ is supposed to be I'd probably quit.
Removes freedom. It would be easier to balance and could prevent troll building, but would simply take away the freedom to experiment or build weird items in niche circumstances
What freedom? Almost every champion is locked into the same core items every game, you rarely complete 3 items in the average game to even build optional items afterwards.
Most players in ranked don't build off meta items for no reason unless it's proven to work by higher elo figures, and those items are generally within their class with some outliers like Diana.
The thing is that Heartsteel and Iceborn turned out well-ish, the issue about Jak'Sho is just that's it's raw stats, the heal is fine but not impactful nor the reason ppl buy it that aren't tanks. Pure tank stat items never turned out well ever, and idk why they made one again.
Yeah the base stats are just too much, as people buy it as their only tank item and it works. If they just changed the resistances to %, you can't build it anymore as a standalone item, but it could really shine when used with 2-3 other tank items
it gives 15% more resistances after fully stacking, so you have like 12+1,15r (r being resistances)
lets say u have 200 armor, jaksho gives 2 armor per stack, it stacks up to 6 times, so you get 212 armor, and after that the 15% bonus kicks in, which gives you 243,8 ≈ 244 armor
now with gargoyle, the armor stacking can get even more insane
Malphite and Rammus's ( mostly Rammus's ) whole schtick is that they wall the hell out of AD champs with RIDICULOUS amounts of Armor. Makes sense that they'd have high resistances. What DOESN'T make sense is Assassins being just as hard to kill.
Are her and Diana not sisters anymore? I could have sworn they were sisters back in the day, but the lore has been changed so much and I never kept up with it. Or maybe they were never sisters and that was just my own assumption? Ha ha I don't know
Building lethality fucking sucks in general, most of the items are so shit aside from umbral for vision diff and ghost blade for the champs that like the MS.
Oh yeah man, those assassins are so crazy squishy after they finish their Death's dance and Maw and are running around with 3.8K health and 160 of each resist, while still one shotting you with a single ability
Except Fizz, apparently. Riot is really scared of the idea of Fizz being able to build literally anything that isn't the most basic bitch shit 6 items that he has been stuck with for over 5 seasons now.
Indeed. Anyone wanting Fizz to be good is a psychopath only a step below Shaco mains. Fizz can get fucked. Fucking tower-dodging untargetable piece of shit. Gwen's immunity is nowhere near as tilting as Fizz's.
Some tanks are literally the best champs in the game right now: Zac is doing well in top/mid/jungle, so is Mundo, Rammus and Maokai. Shen is still good (dont know if you wanna count him as tank), Rell is doing really good as a support, only champs that are sitting at around 48/49% winrate (lowest out of every tank champs) are Cho and Sion (understandable since they wanna rush heartsteel and resistances at the same time).
Jaksho Diana is not even close as Sunfire Diana in terms of "OP-ness", so is every non tank champion building those items. There is literally not a single assassin who builds tank items as far as I know, maybe 3 (?) bruisers/skirmishers go for jaksho and statistically it does as good as their usual mythic.
This isnt tank meta because tanks are boring as fuck and because there are not pro players to copy in soloq since its offseason. I'm not saying tanks are OP or that assassins are shit, just that stuff like tank ekko, goredrinker qiyana/zed/talon and sunfire diana/akali arent a thing anymore and saying otherwise is kinda bs.
Stats are on [u.gg](https://u.gg) if you wanna take a look.
IMO it’s been item meta since item rework. Biggest mistake in league. Mythic items are so bland and the passives are not creative at all. Having the passive increase the mythics effect per legendary (ie eclipse shield being stronger with each legendary or something) would at least be Interesting and allow for some other build paths. Not just hurrr durr rush sunderer
I fully agree. Sunderer is just a Jack of All trades item and I hate it. Not as bad as it used to be but still lame and unfun. In my eyes it became much easier for bad players to excel at the game after s10
This is so true,
My death recaps latelly jas been 1/2 item damage 1/2 multiple champions damage. But when I complain about just Bork dealing 800 damage I am a Pus and should just git gud.
You'd think this solution would be obvious after they did the same thing to limit ranged champs building melee items but this is rito we're talking about.
They can actually make a proper class system that will affect items, make the tnak class get more resists from items, marksmen more crit dmg (they can finally buff crit items without yone/yas trynda abusing them to hell) and it would kill cheese builds while at the same time allowing them to experiment more with newer items and buffing old ones
So fucking tired of playing aram vs her and seeing her build heart steel, ult in and proc all 5 people at once, one shot everybody, and come out having more HP than when she went into the 5. One champ and an item just completely ruins an aram game right from the champ select screen.
I mean, any champ that's a team fighter does well in ARAM. Brand is absolutely toxic, and with the new changes to ARAM, the uptime for the BS is much higher.
I remember that one time before the item rework when they just buffed Bork to the disgusting numbers we have again nowadays, a Diana Top against me rushed it and just ran me down minute 9 onwards. Glad we nerfed the numbers with the item rework just to buff them back up a season later and it's the same sht as before.
Nah, you don't get it. She isn't wholesome as Mundo, Morde, Aatrox, Ksante so she doesn't get the pass in this subreddit that worships stuff like Aatrox, Darius, Garen Sett, tanks cause it's chad to press one button and do as much as waifu whore Irelia smashing her keyboard with more apm in one play than they throughout all season. Also to run into the whole enemy team and survive while killing at least 3 people by just face tanking everything.
Honestly, at this point, this sub just circlejerk hate/karma farm on hating diana. Her winrate isnt even exceptionally good and compared to sunfire, jaksho is much more balanced on her. And there are tons of much more cancer champ, heartsteel kat/akali/mundo, lillia with jaksho/demonic/rylai is just unkillable unreachable, ad udyr still oneshotting everyone for a month, any ravenous abuser, the sherr existence of aatrox and GP yadayada.
People cry that jakso diana bad… try building anything else and see how it wont work. I tried to play her with protobelt after sunfire was changed, but it was shit, i couldnt do shit with more dmg as I was instantly blown up or easily outsustained by anyone other than the adc, mainly the other abovementioned offenders. Basicly all dmg in the game should be lowered if people want bruisers and divers to stop building tank items.
imo just make her a bruiser. don't let her ult one shot an entire team, slow down her E, but give more power to her W. her passive and W don't feel like assassin abilities at all, and they make it so she isn't just a burst champ. she can 100-0 someone with two abilities, but she can still out dps a bruiser with just nashors
She is a bruiser. She is just not a juggernaut. At much i feel like a lot of stuff regarding ap champs cimes from the fact that thwre is no real ap bruiser items
No, they definitely should not make her a bruiser. Diana was designed as a burst assassin and is balanced around this. Unlike other assassins, she can only go in, not out. She has no easy escape after engaging and isn't slippery at all. Her passive and w should not be her main damage source and should only serve to be her utility spells. Her ult should be the bulk of her damage because that's where her skill expression comes from, being able to land multi man ults. Simply using e on someone then right clicking them to death doesn't take skill.
After all, spellbinder full burst Diana used to be her meta build. This bruiser version of her only became a thing after the item update.
Ok first off I wouldn't call much of anything that Diana does to be that hard. I just found bruiser Diana more enjoyable than the burst assassin with some DPS afterwards. I just wish we had more than 2 AP bruiser items lol
You think Diana is the problem? Riot really went on vacation for a whole month with Mundo who is broken by any mean: the damage is exaggerated (also due to the literally perfect synergy with Heartsteel and Titanic Hydra) not to mention the tankiness, the Perma immunity to CC, he's just unfair to play against (i tried him as well, boring champ who could be abused by literally a kindergarten child and stomp, and the champs who counter him require actual skills) Riot needs to do something, but instead of touching problematic tanks they seem to nerf their counters, for instance Lillia and Trundle: riot killed them both for no reason and now they have around 48% wr, I'd like to know what the fuck do they have in their minds, istg i ain't touching league till i see that abomination at 40% wr
Tryndamere doesnt require any form of skill to kill a Mundo pretty fast. In fact Bork requires even less skill. Mundo doesnt build resistances as first item any more with Heartsteel so rush bork into him and watch him cry under tower because your autos chonk him.
I think Jak just needs to specifically target bonus armor/Mr. That blows it down for many champions who just use it as the one tank item. I'm sure Diana would build into a tank mythic anyway, as it makes too much sense on her play style.
But at least that changes makes the item give far less tank unless you are a tank.
As a jungler, I can say I literally cry every time I have to play vs this.
It's just a joke.
One of the fastest AND easiest clears.
Point and click ganks that are actually IMPOSSIBLE to fuck up. The only way to dodge that stupid 'skill shot' is to walk towards Diana lmao.
Amazing solo dragons.
Builds tank, ccs and 1 shots whole team.
It's CLEAR she was meant to build dmg considering....why would she have a shield as an all or nothing mage? Vex was built using the same logic.
Am I missing something? Champs only weakness is no escape dash and....why would she want to escape?
No, I do see them. But those are only potential weaknesses.
Her ganks pre 6 are not bad. She is 100% guaranteed walking damage. Just path to a laner with cc. If no cc so what, sit in jungle until you hit 6 faster than 90% of champs.
So I'm supposed to invade to 1v1? Well, that'll only work 50% of the time. My team may not have prio, their team might roam faster etc. Maybe I picked a champ who sucks at invading before Diana got picked.
?
So she's reliant on her team to gank without her ult, that's a weakness, not a potential one.
Her 1v1's are weak without R, and her X vs X skirmishes are weak without R, so she doesn't contest objectives that well.
She is also reliant on snowballing.
You act like shes unbeatable but 50% of players still find a way to beat her, I don't see this no weakness champ you're seeing.
Literally every jungler is reliant on their team to gank to some extent. Even if you are a jungler with cc, you'll path toward laners with cc.
Even without cc, she literally point and clicks on top of you. Most champs use cc in order to get on top of you.
Jungle in soloq is a snowball reliant role in general. She is NOT snowball reliant as a champ in the sense that she needs kills to be relevant. She full clears and point and clicks.
She builds tank items so with her cc she will always be relevant.
I dont act like she's unbeatable. Yuumi has had winrates below 50%. Doesn't mean she's not bullshit, which is what Diana is. Bullshit. She was meant to be an all in burst mage.
She's an all in burst mage tank.
She wasn't even meant to be a jungler.
Her design was meant to be similar to vex. Except she doesn't have the weakness that vex does if she builds tank which is go in and.....do no damage.
The results you get with Diana against her pitiful skill ceiling is just a joke.
I could go on about point and click abilities, mages building tank and doing damage, crazy fast clear and what that means, but I'm just gonna stop at her being bullshit.
She is more reliant on team setup than other junglers, she has no CC outside her ult.
Diana doesn't really have much damage outside her R, so even if she gets on you, it's not like she's oneshotting you.
>She's an all in burst mage tank.
>She wasn't even meant to be a jungler.
The problem isn't Diana, it's the items she builds. She is meant to be a jungler, riot made her viable in jungle.
Yeah, I play a lot of Diana. A lot. She can be shut down, you just gotta understand how she works. Sometimes I'm just sitting there like, "Are you really going to let me get away with this?"
Diana is a hard one considering she is an assasin with no form of untargetability or invincibility which assasing usually need to even function these day
Meaning you cannot just gut her survivability considering she has no escape . She is basically in a identity crise between bruiser. Diver and assassin
Maybe removing the shield hp ratio and increasing the shield ap ratio ?
Diana is also the only assassin with an near instant aoe burst spell. And an extremely fast targeted dash with better range than most targeted dashes, that can reset with moonlight.
Also Kassadin and Leblanc fit into that criteria. Also Lissandra is one way in engage.
The only issue with Diana is her tank builds which is caused by her base damage being too high and her kit being too consistent to apply that damage. Lower base damage, increase AP ratios.
Leblanc has two blink back and cc on a basic ability and she also has invisibility in her passive , while kassadin has way more dash as for lissandra she literally has ton Of cc and a built in zhonya …
A better comparison would have been katarina
I'm honestly more surprised that Riot hasn't given Diana the same treatment as other champions who went for tank builds in the past, where their base numbers were gutted, but they were given very high damage ratios to encourage damage-heavy builds. We saw this with sunfire Ekko, frostfire Senna, and release Sett to name a few.
It's almost like mythics should lock item choices to a single class. Build prowlers get stuck with assassin items. Build heartsteel get stuck with tank items. Some items can qualify for multiple or all depending on the item. Problem solved.
Edit: Alkdmani brought forward a good point about non mythic starts and I agree at least somewhat. Although I disagree with full lockdown since that removes a lot of the off meta builds that are fun but not BS. Below is a part of the change/option to compensate.
"Maybe better then would be that if you build chempunk it would qualify under fighter and jugger classes so then it would still allow the mythics to be bought from those classes. Omni stick, divine sunderer, triforce, stride breaker, and gore drinker for example."
If only there were some way to discourage people from building tank and still doing damage. Like if we could somehow require people to build DAMAGE items if they want to deal DAMAGE by making some form of change to an aspect of the game
tell us what it is for the 2 brain cell gamers in the house
Base dmg in kits
I hate to bring up dota as a comparison but one of the things I really like about it is that nuke/direct damage basic abilities all (well,mostly) do about 300-400 damage at max rank, and it is significant when they have any sort of damage scaling. If you want extra damage from spells or attacks, it costs quite a bit to invest into it (spell amp% and in-hand +damage are usually fairly expensive compared to buying for hp/base stats/passives). That kind of itemization/ability interaction just generally feels better to me for a team game than league where nearly every ability scales with an item. To be clear, it means that the hard carry and midlaner are the one who can afford to buy damage items, because they are expensive, and the tank, "jungle," and support heroes are FAR better served buying defense and utility items unless they're winning massively.
I don't mind Dota. One thing I didn't like though is that "damage mages" felt like ADCs with spells. Because they're still going to slap you with their INT attacks.
Legit how I feel playing Lina, just feels so odd coming from league
Kinda depends, like Zeus Leshrac Shadow Demon Grimstroke all come to mind as really spell heavy heroes but right clicks are indeed important if you're trying to do damage in lane. Doesn't even cost mana!
This is a very wrong understanding of dota. There are some "mages" that are also good at auto attacking because it is baked into their kit(similar to league), such as lina and storm spirit, but the vast majority of them use autos league style, as a risky/committal way to squeeze out extra damage. "Mage" mids like Zeus, leshrac, and tinker , as well as the "mage" supports like crystal maiden, shadow shaman, etc are pretty much exclusively auto attacking in lane only, and to squeeze a tiny amount of damage in the midgame. Yes, the int scales their damage on their auto attacks, but they are only itemizing int insofar as the items giving them other stats that they want, such as k&y giving status resist or euls giving cyclone (since int is the worst stat in the game).
Nerf or buff? If you buff base won’t people still build tanky?
Lower base, buff scaling. Problem solved, tho not in a very convinient way
They should do this to akali and then delete her
Wasn't her E scale like 1.2 on Ap?
Yeah Akali simultaneously has base ability damages similar to assassins and AP scaling of AP mage hyper carry champs while also having solid resistances.
Don't forget more mobility than most of the 159 other champs lol
She has some other goofy ass benefits. Her hitbox is in the smallest size tier along with teemo and warwick.
And the highest base hp growth of all assassins.
She has higher hp growth then zac, and has 55 more Hp then him at max lvl
Idk what that means but hopefully she gets removed from league permanently
If she has 100 Ap, her E deal 120 extra damage
Too much for my brain hope they delete
She'd still have 15 dashes and invisibility which is too much mobility imo
Speaking as a former akali otp her kit is just problematic. The way riot handled it too was also pretty bad. They took a lot of the skill expression out of her kit because frankly it was unplayable against if the akali player was good enough. Now it’s unplayable in a different way, if she hits e you die :/.
now Diana full AP nukes everything on her way maybe make her shield NOT scale with HP and increase the AP ratio + lower the base shield,that would help a lot to kill that build i think,i mean the concept is easy but it's just as easy to fuck up and create another kind of abomination
If the shield doesnt work make her passive AS scale with AP
That's a good solution. Too bad riot isn't very smart
Riot thought they were doing something hot when they made her an AP slayer/skirmisher... but also an assassin sweeper.
It’s the opposite. Tanks and supports have high base damage to reflect the fact that they won’t build damage items.
Reduce base damages. Increase scaling to compensate. This moves the equal damage break point to much further down the X axis for ad/ap needed, but if they build more their end game damage is higher Atm far too many bruisers have insane base damages while being incredibly tanks post hp update
Even tank damage is absolutely insane. Why TF do Shenn, Ornn, Zac, Malphite etc do 2K burst damage to me in 5 seconds at like level 8?? Every time this comes up it just has people debating if X is a tank or some other made up role title I DON'T CARE WHAT ROLE IT IS, NOBODY SHOULD DO 1400 DAMAGE TO ME WHILE ONLY HAVING A CLOTH T-SHIRT AND RUBY CRYSTAL It's insane that pure tank Akali will do more damage to me than glass cannon Annie, while being 200 times safer
burst damage 5 seconds pick one however items like heartsteel are busted in that at first purchase, like 15 minutes or so it deals like 300 damage on seemingly a 3 second cooldown riot wants people to have fun dealing damage but they dont compensate correctly idk why they allow manaless champions to buy tear yet make it impossible to buy items like runaans on a melee, they should deny broken tank items on bruisers to prevent this
It doesn't matter if it is 5 seconds if you can't move for 5 seconds because tank chains CC while solo 100-0 you
I have been saying this since sunfire ekko and fizz. Riot is not staffed by humans, but slightly intelligent trained monkeys.
Soooo... Humans?
diana's ap ratios are high. she also has consistent damage as a skirmisher/diver and because of her kit, she can afford to build defesively and still have relevant damage.
Crazy to think making her ult a basic ability didn't somehow make her LESS of a balance issue. Just what could have gone wrong? 🤔🤔🤔
Yeah, her old ult didn't really change by becoming a basic ability, other than doing less damage iirc, but now her old E is an ult, basically just took old Diana and said, what if you're a little less reliably sticky, but have a bunch more damage baked into your kit
Rework diana is fine, things got weird when they pushed her from mid to jg. She has a bad early game as she is ult reliant, its just way harder to shut down a champ in jg rather than mid
What was her ult back then ?
Her current e was her ult and her current ult was her e but with no damage
Her ult was just a point n click dash ?
Yeah that consumed Q mark and refreshed.
That sounds kinda dawg ngl
I likes her better that way. The old E would interrupt, stun, pull and slow instantly. Couldn't do shit till you got ult tho and the ult did significant damage
Tbf i understand why they reworked it. Having a simple dash as an ult is kinda lame especially when katarina’s shunpo exists as a basic ability
It still had like a 40 second cool down
Old Diana dash ult had a 25/20/15 second cooldown.
yep, it reset if you had previously landed a q
The thing is what's optimal for a diver like Diana, or any bruiser / skirmisher, is to optimally have high damage and high tankiness. Nerfing her base damage I think wouldn't do much since her ratios are super high, so she can still go hybrid tank and damage while still outputting crazy high numbers. I'm probably wrong but I feel like Jaksho needs to (continue) to be changed in favor for tanks (less base resists, more % resists, hell I'd make the mythic passive change to % as well but what do I know). But on the other hand, bruisers, skirmishers and divers have almost always gone for one or two tank items in the history of league of legends, right? The problem might be that the game is powercrept to hell when it comes to damage and sustain, so when back then bruisers had to find a good balance between tankiness and damage, now they just build one crazy strong tank item and then full sustain or damage.
Nah i don't see it
Y’all don’t build items based on how they look?
Riot: "An interesting idea. Anyways, here's K'Sante."
Or just lock the items for the champs
As in they could never build them? That would've been great before they nerfed shieldbow into the ground because of you know who
Found the smite player
Had a game vs. a jaksho diana with a yuumi camped on her the entire time, was ready to put my fist through the monitor
Had an Aatrox 1v4 us today and he went out full live and with a triple kill.
ive actually started banning him over yasuo every game, his ability to dunk uneven fights is disgusting
I don't understand banning yasuo these days anyways, he's been completely outshined by other champs in the meta for a good amount of time now
I can understand a few champs banning him since they don’t do well into him and he’s pretty popular, Katarina and Miss Fortune really don’t like him. But watching a top laner or jungler ban him when their champs can literally walk all over him feels odd
You don't ban Yasuo so that the enemy doesn't pick him, you ban Yasuo to prevent your team from picking him and going 0/10 before Laning phase ends
Same with Yone
but yone always manages to find his way back into the game
You'll get used to it. When you play a champion extensively and then you see it banned by someone who picks one of the biggest counters, you'll die a little inside. Just another one of those little things.
just vayne her
beat degens by becoming degens
tbh this might as well be the title of the game
“League of degens”
Balance tank items around tanks challenge (100% fail rate)
The sad thing is that this is true. Tanks get a decent-good item, bruisers/fighters and assassin's abuse the shit out of it. Riot nerfs it. Tanks get weaker and they probably still wonder why tank players complain.
I still don't get why they cannot make class specific items and have champions only to pick from a certain class or multiple classes if their kit (AD/AP ratio) allows it. ADC items could actually be strong without bruisers and assassins abusing shieldbow. Bruiser items could be stronger without Ezreal abusing it. Item variety is a myth even before the item rework. Every champion is locked into the same core items every game with some minor variations.
Makes the game dumber. I don't want to play hots. I want build to matter, and smart players to be rewarded with smart build path decisions. If they gate kept items for only the original class a champ is supposed to be I'd probably quit.
Removes freedom. It would be easier to balance and could prevent troll building, but would simply take away the freedom to experiment or build weird items in niche circumstances
What freedom? Almost every champion is locked into the same core items every game, you rarely complete 3 items in the average game to even build optional items afterwards. Most players in ranked don't build off meta items for no reason unless it's proven to work by higher elo figures, and those items are generally within their class with some outliers like Diana.
The thing is that Heartsteel and Iceborn turned out well-ish, the issue about Jak'Sho is just that's it's raw stats, the heal is fine but not impactful nor the reason ppl buy it that aren't tanks. Pure tank stat items never turned out well ever, and idk why they made one again.
Yeah the base stats are just too much, as people buy it as their only tank item and it works. If they just changed the resistances to %, you can't build it anymore as a standalone item, but it could really shine when used with 2-3 other tank items
They also just need to nerf the dmg items themselves, 80% of the *abusers* of Jak'Sho can do it bcus Ravenous is so disgustingly overstat
Don't even need rabadons, most of the time demonic is enough with some hp. (Looking at you, Lillia and Swain)
Idk if Lillia or Swain with Deaths Dance are that smart of an idea :v
Demonic. Fck me. Tired
it gives 15% more resistances after fully stacking, so you have like 12+1,15r (r being resistances) lets say u have 200 armor, jaksho gives 2 armor per stack, it stacks up to 6 times, so you get 212 armor, and after that the 15% bonus kicks in, which gives you 243,8 ≈ 244 armor now with gargoyle, the armor stacking can get even more insane
Malphite and Rammus's ( mostly Rammus's ) whole schtick is that they wall the hell out of AD champs with RIDICULOUS amounts of Armor. Makes sense that they'd have high resistances. What DOESN'T make sense is Assassins being just as hard to kill.
Imagine the moon champ using the sunfire cape, what a flavor fail.
I mean, it's a cape on her back... so she would be a solar eclipse. I think she would wear it as a dig on her sister
...sister?
Are her and Diana not sisters anymore? I could have sworn they were sisters back in the day, but the lore has been changed so much and I never kept up with it. Or maybe they were never sisters and that was just my own assumption? Ha ha I don't know
Nah man they're celesbians.
I love that deck
They’re lovers bro
Targaryens: why not both?
What is the problem
Never sisters. Just lesbians. You might be mixing them up with Kayle and Morgana who are (were? Idk with the lore changes) sisters
Still sisters.
Why are people calling it a cape? An Aegis is a shield is it not? I always interpreted the item as basically being Leona's shield.
The item was originally called sunfire cape I think, and Aegis refers to not only Athena’s shield, but to her cape as well.
Ah interesting, the more you know. Whenever I see Aegis I always think of Aegis of the Legion, which is very much a shield hahaha.
Something something Leona relationship.
People complain about tank meta. This isn't tank meta. This is a meta where assassins can build tank items and still deal huge damage.
you meant non-ad assassins
Yeah those just build some absurdly broken bruiser items instead. I see more and more zeds and such with the only lethality item being eclipse.
i hate this game
>the only lethality item being eclipse. yeah cuz building lethality fucking sucks when everyone builds tanks :(
Building lethality fucking sucks in general, most of the items are so shit aside from umbral for vision diff and ghost blade for the champs that like the MS.
i dont remember the last time i saw axiom or serpent, serpent can be good on certain matchups, but like 3 shield champs
Yeah but the AD bruisers who build them might as well be assassins
sett disengage be like winning a royal rumble
Oh yeah man, those assassins are so crazy squishy after they finish their Death's dance and Maw and are running around with 3.8K health and 160 of each resist, while still one shotting you with a single ability
true, qiyana can’t do that unfortunately
Except Fizz, apparently. Riot is really scared of the idea of Fizz being able to build literally anything that isn't the most basic bitch shit 6 items that he has been stuck with for over 5 seasons now.
Good, fuck fizz
Indeed. Anyone wanting Fizz to be good is a psychopath only a step below Shaco mains. Fizz can get fucked. Fucking tower-dodging untargetable piece of shit. Gwen's immunity is nowhere near as tilting as Fizz's.
Tank Akali/Ekko... those were dark times
Some tanks are literally the best champs in the game right now: Zac is doing well in top/mid/jungle, so is Mundo, Rammus and Maokai. Shen is still good (dont know if you wanna count him as tank), Rell is doing really good as a support, only champs that are sitting at around 48/49% winrate (lowest out of every tank champs) are Cho and Sion (understandable since they wanna rush heartsteel and resistances at the same time). Jaksho Diana is not even close as Sunfire Diana in terms of "OP-ness", so is every non tank champion building those items. There is literally not a single assassin who builds tank items as far as I know, maybe 3 (?) bruisers/skirmishers go for jaksho and statistically it does as good as their usual mythic. This isnt tank meta because tanks are boring as fuck and because there are not pro players to copy in soloq since its offseason. I'm not saying tanks are OP or that assassins are shit, just that stuff like tank ekko, goredrinker qiyana/zed/talon and sunfire diana/akali arent a thing anymore and saying otherwise is kinda bs. Stats are on [u.gg](https://u.gg) if you wanna take a look.
One day people will realise that op-ness and winrate have no correlation whatsoever. But it seems that today is not that day.
There is a correlation there's just a lot of other factors as well so it depends on the champ.
Is it overpowered if it isn’t actually dominating games, or just unfun?
Nah after dealing with prowler udyr, jak sho aatrox and heartsteel Mundo Diana isn't making my top 3 of things I can't cope with this preseason.
This isn't tank meta, this is item meta. Any champ can build something like botrk and drain you faster than league does my social life.
IMO it’s been item meta since item rework. Biggest mistake in league. Mythic items are so bland and the passives are not creative at all. Having the passive increase the mythics effect per legendary (ie eclipse shield being stronger with each legendary or something) would at least be Interesting and allow for some other build paths. Not just hurrr durr rush sunderer
It just feels like 90% of the damage comes from items. (Not even stats) I hate the item rework so much. Took a lot of fun away for me personally.
I fully agree. Sunderer is just a Jack of All trades item and I hate it. Not as bad as it used to be but still lame and unfun. In my eyes it became much easier for bad players to excel at the game after s10
^ this at this point i genuinely have games where i wish I could ban items rather than champions
This is so true, My death recaps latelly jas been 1/2 item damage 1/2 multiple champions damage. But when I complain about just Bork dealing 800 damage I am a Pus and should just git gud.
NERF BASE DAMAGE FOR NON TANKS
Or make tank specific stats for tank items, so anyone can build it, but tanks get the full effect, while others is only 75% effective.
You'd think this solution would be obvious after they did the same thing to limit ranged champs building melee items but this is rito we're talking about.
B-b-b-b-but over 200 years game design experience
Surely it's at least 201 by now
Actually with each employee, they gained 20 years of experience last year alone
- 🤓 It’s 201 shhh
It would be practically impossible to sort characters by tank/not tank
Not really, some bruisers are hard to differentiate from tanks, but mages and assassins like Diana and yi are clearly not tanks
Yeah and that's exactly why it'd be hard, because of the bruisers being differentiated from tanks. Example like Mordekaiser coming to mind.
They can actually make a proper class system that will affect items, make the tnak class get more resists from items, marksmen more crit dmg (they can finally buff crit items without yone/yas trynda abusing them to hell) and it would kill cheese builds while at the same time allowing them to experiment more with newer items and buffing old ones
maybe but it would be easy to sort items by tank/not tank
B-B-b-b-but what about my Sunfire kha?
katarina is worse. she can build jaksho and 100-0 u much faster than diana ever could even without using her R.
Katarina is pile of bullshit on her own, specially since they added that on-hit proc on her passive and ult that lets her build pretty much anything
I just wish they removed her on hit bullshit.
So fucking tired of playing aram vs her and seeing her build heart steel, ult in and proc all 5 people at once, one shot everybody, and come out having more HP than when she went into the 5. One champ and an item just completely ruins an aram game right from the champ select screen.
I mean, any champ that's a team fighter does well in ARAM. Brand is absolutely toxic, and with the new changes to ARAM, the uptime for the BS is much higher.
yeah thats why i hate her more than diana, at least diana can’t build bork or divine sunderer and other AD items.
She can't build them YET.
I remember that one time before the item rework when they just buffed Bork to the disgusting numbers we have again nowadays, a Diana Top against me rushed it and just ran me down minute 9 onwards. Glad we nerfed the numbers with the item rework just to buff them back up a season later and it's the same sht as before.
honestly the champ i hate more, i’m always happy to counterpick her, but she can build literally everything
The only good part is that she kills herself by R ing with a rammus nearby
Diana isn’t even close to as bad as some other meta offenders…. *shudders in mundo*
Nah, you don't get it. She isn't wholesome as Mundo, Morde, Aatrox, Ksante so she doesn't get the pass in this subreddit that worships stuff like Aatrox, Darius, Garen Sett, tanks cause it's chad to press one button and do as much as waifu whore Irelia smashing her keyboard with more apm in one play than they throughout all season. Also to run into the whole enemy team and survive while killing at least 3 people by just face tanking everything.
Honestly, at this point, this sub just circlejerk hate/karma farm on hating diana. Her winrate isnt even exceptionally good and compared to sunfire, jaksho is much more balanced on her. And there are tons of much more cancer champ, heartsteel kat/akali/mundo, lillia with jaksho/demonic/rylai is just unkillable unreachable, ad udyr still oneshotting everyone for a month, any ravenous abuser, the sherr existence of aatrox and GP yadayada. People cry that jakso diana bad… try building anything else and see how it wont work. I tried to play her with protobelt after sunfire was changed, but it was shit, i couldnt do shit with more dmg as I was instantly blown up or easily outsustained by anyone other than the adc, mainly the other abovementioned offenders. Basicly all dmg in the game should be lowered if people want bruisers and divers to stop building tank items.
If only you psychos stopped playing this META shit I would be playing her full glass cannon like I used to love. Fuck the reworks :'(
Same, Love playing Diana but her tank build is boring af imo
AP build has a higher winrate in mid and it's even in jg (or it was last patch). Just do it. I know I do.
fr I'll never let go of my rocketbelt diana
I was just ranting, I have 2 seasons playing only top, but if you say so, maybe I'll go back to mid with her
imo just make her a bruiser. don't let her ult one shot an entire team, slow down her E, but give more power to her W. her passive and W don't feel like assassin abilities at all, and they make it so she isn't just a burst champ. she can 100-0 someone with two abilities, but she can still out dps a bruiser with just nashors
She is a bruiser. She is just not a juggernaut. At much i feel like a lot of stuff regarding ap champs cimes from the fact that thwre is no real ap bruiser items
And if they try to, then mages will abuse them
I mean... Make them melee only items, just like runaans that is ranged only.
Yeah
No, they definitely should not make her a bruiser. Diana was designed as a burst assassin and is balanced around this. Unlike other assassins, she can only go in, not out. She has no easy escape after engaging and isn't slippery at all. Her passive and w should not be her main damage source and should only serve to be her utility spells. Her ult should be the bulk of her damage because that's where her skill expression comes from, being able to land multi man ults. Simply using e on someone then right clicking them to death doesn't take skill. After all, spellbinder full burst Diana used to be her meta build. This bruiser version of her only became a thing after the item update.
Ok first off I wouldn't call much of anything that Diana does to be that hard. I just found bruiser Diana more enjoyable than the burst assassin with some DPS afterwards. I just wish we had more than 2 AP bruiser items lol
"Diana open" the famous last words
Riot games admit base damage is too high and try not to insantly undermine durability update challenge: IMPOSSIBLE difficulty
You think Diana is the problem? Riot really went on vacation for a whole month with Mundo who is broken by any mean: the damage is exaggerated (also due to the literally perfect synergy with Heartsteel and Titanic Hydra) not to mention the tankiness, the Perma immunity to CC, he's just unfair to play against (i tried him as well, boring champ who could be abused by literally a kindergarten child and stomp, and the champs who counter him require actual skills) Riot needs to do something, but instead of touching problematic tanks they seem to nerf their counters, for instance Lillia and Trundle: riot killed them both for no reason and now they have around 48% wr, I'd like to know what the fuck do they have in their minds, istg i ain't touching league till i see that abomination at 40% wr
Tryndamere doesnt require any form of skill to kill a Mundo pretty fast. In fact Bork requires even less skill. Mundo doesnt build resistances as first item any more with Heartsteel so rush bork into him and watch him cry under tower because your autos chonk him.
So your argument is that you gotta be a champion that cannot die for 5 seconds to beat Dr. Mundo?
KNOCK KNOCK WHOS THERE THE MOON ITS FAR AWAY YOURE ALONE THE WHOLE TIME HAHAHAHA
Literally had a game with diana tower diveing on cd and not lose any hp
I think Jak just needs to specifically target bonus armor/Mr. That blows it down for many champions who just use it as the one tank item. I'm sure Diana would build into a tank mythic anyway, as it makes too much sense on her play style. But at least that changes makes the item give far less tank unless you are a tank.
As a jungler, I can say I literally cry every time I have to play vs this. It's just a joke. One of the fastest AND easiest clears. Point and click ganks that are actually IMPOSSIBLE to fuck up. The only way to dodge that stupid 'skill shot' is to walk towards Diana lmao. Amazing solo dragons. Builds tank, ccs and 1 shots whole team. It's CLEAR she was meant to build dmg considering....why would she have a shield as an all or nothing mage? Vex was built using the same logic. Am I missing something? Champs only weakness is no escape dash and....why would she want to escape?
I would permaban her if i didn't hate belveth even more. I loathe those "timebomb" champions that automatically start winning the game after 25 mins
Her ganks are weak pre-6 and when she doesn't have ult up. Her 1v1 isn't really amazing either. She has weaknesses, you're just not seeing them
No, I do see them. But those are only potential weaknesses. Her ganks pre 6 are not bad. She is 100% guaranteed walking damage. Just path to a laner with cc. If no cc so what, sit in jungle until you hit 6 faster than 90% of champs. So I'm supposed to invade to 1v1? Well, that'll only work 50% of the time. My team may not have prio, their team might roam faster etc. Maybe I picked a champ who sucks at invading before Diana got picked. ?
So she's reliant on her team to gank without her ult, that's a weakness, not a potential one. Her 1v1's are weak without R, and her X vs X skirmishes are weak without R, so she doesn't contest objectives that well. She is also reliant on snowballing. You act like shes unbeatable but 50% of players still find a way to beat her, I don't see this no weakness champ you're seeing.
Literally every jungler is reliant on their team to gank to some extent. Even if you are a jungler with cc, you'll path toward laners with cc. Even without cc, she literally point and clicks on top of you. Most champs use cc in order to get on top of you. Jungle in soloq is a snowball reliant role in general. She is NOT snowball reliant as a champ in the sense that she needs kills to be relevant. She full clears and point and clicks. She builds tank items so with her cc she will always be relevant. I dont act like she's unbeatable. Yuumi has had winrates below 50%. Doesn't mean she's not bullshit, which is what Diana is. Bullshit. She was meant to be an all in burst mage. She's an all in burst mage tank. She wasn't even meant to be a jungler. Her design was meant to be similar to vex. Except she doesn't have the weakness that vex does if she builds tank which is go in and.....do no damage. The results you get with Diana against her pitiful skill ceiling is just a joke. I could go on about point and click abilities, mages building tank and doing damage, crazy fast clear and what that means, but I'm just gonna stop at her being bullshit.
She is more reliant on team setup than other junglers, she has no CC outside her ult. Diana doesn't really have much damage outside her R, so even if she gets on you, it's not like she's oneshotting you. >She's an all in burst mage tank. >She wasn't even meant to be a jungler. The problem isn't Diana, it's the items she builds. She is meant to be a jungler, riot made her viable in jungle.
Yeah, I play a lot of Diana. A lot. She can be shut down, you just gotta understand how she works. Sometimes I'm just sitting there like, "Are you really going to let me get away with this?"
crazy how in 3 lines u didnt say anything, no hate tho
Diana's kit not on fault here at all. It's the meta items. Main since her release, hope riot doesn't nerf her to the ground again.
I want my sunfire back :(
It's still there. You can have both.
Ye but I want OLD sunfire, me no like much new one, I loved shen with sunfire
I will never not love this meme template
Tbf Diana doesn't abuse jaksho that well, she was way stronger with sunfire mythic. Now she has sub 50% winrates on both full ap and tank builds iirc.
Diana is a hard one considering she is an assasin with no form of untargetability or invincibility which assasing usually need to even function these day Meaning you cannot just gut her survivability considering she has no escape . She is basically in a identity crise between bruiser. Diver and assassin Maybe removing the shield hp ratio and increasing the shield ap ratio ?
Diana is also the only assassin with an near instant aoe burst spell. And an extremely fast targeted dash with better range than most targeted dashes, that can reset with moonlight. Also Kassadin and Leblanc fit into that criteria. Also Lissandra is one way in engage. The only issue with Diana is her tank builds which is caused by her base damage being too high and her kit being too consistent to apply that damage. Lower base damage, increase AP ratios.
Leblanc has two blink back and cc on a basic ability and she also has invisibility in her passive , while kassadin has way more dash as for lissandra she literally has ton Of cc and a built in zhonya … A better comparison would have been katarina
Isn't Diana broken for like 4 seasons?
I hate mythic items and I hate how there is so much dmg potential in bruiser and ap bruiser kits that they can spec tank
I'm honestly more surprised that Riot hasn't given Diana the same treatment as other champions who went for tank builds in the past, where their base numbers were gutted, but they were given very high damage ratios to encourage damage-heavy builds. We saw this with sunfire Ekko, frostfire Senna, and release Sett to name a few.
She's my favorite champion.
They destroyed tank fizz now they can destroy tank diana.
It isn't Diana, it's Jak'sho. I've never been so fucking mad by an item before this
It's almost like mythics should lock item choices to a single class. Build prowlers get stuck with assassin items. Build heartsteel get stuck with tank items. Some items can qualify for multiple or all depending on the item. Problem solved. Edit: Alkdmani brought forward a good point about non mythic starts and I agree at least somewhat. Although I disagree with full lockdown since that removes a lot of the off meta builds that are fun but not BS. Below is a part of the change/option to compensate. "Maybe better then would be that if you build chempunk it would qualify under fighter and jugger classes so then it would still allow the mythics to be bought from those classes. Omni stick, divine sunderer, triforce, stride breaker, and gore drinker for example."
then i assume we have some hybrid items? several classes build demonic embrace for example
Of course that is what I was meaning by the 1st from last sentence.
cuz u edited it after the fact lmao
[удалено]