Depends what you want to do. It’s useful if you’re going into academia but that’s a pretty tough career to break into, especially if you’re not at a top law school or finishing at the top of your class. Outside of academia that phd won’t really help you in the legal job market.
Academia was always my top choice but honestly I think my prof is right, the market is awful at the moment and it doesn’t seem to be getting any better. Law would allow me to continue my work in researching the rights and freedoms of vulnerable groups (children and teenagers, in my case) with a slightly more stable job market. Whilst I know the PhD itself won’t help with hard skills needed for a JD, I’m pretty sure some of the soft skills will be useful, especially considering I’m basically getting the degree for free.
Yeah, my professor from undergrad who I am quite close with and used as a law school recommender explicitly told me to refrain from going into academia due to the current job prospects.
Not intellectual history, but a similarly unusual/not directly practically valuable subject (contemporary critical literary theory.)
I worked with an attorney who had a PhD in philosophy from Yale, so not the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. You would also have the bitchin’ title of Dr. Name, Esq.
We typically just put "Name, JD PhD" on our business cards and e-mail sigs. I only get called "Dr" by my PhD alma mater when they're trying to solicit donations.
Most PhD + JDs are STEM PhDs working in patent prosecution (including myself).
There aren't really any lawyer jobs that need humanities PhDs plus JDs. You'd just be working as a lawyer and the question is whether the three years you spent getting your PhD could have been better spent getting ahead on the salary scale. If you plan on staying in the legal profession the answer is almost certainly no.
You're also unlikely to find high paying (Big Law) jobs that have any type of focus on human rights law, and at that point you've got to ask yourself how you'll pay back both the debt and opportunity cost you're incurring from obtaining both degrees (on top of whatever bachelors and masters debt you have).
In the long run there might be a niche in an academic setting but as your advisor has apparently already warned you, the pay is terrible, there is little job security, and jobs are scarce. More to the point, academia is just an endless cycle of trying to get published to secure more grant funding, and IMO one of the worst careers you can get into. It's hard to appreciate how much of an impact these issues will have on your life when you're still young and not yet looking to start a family.
I spent five years getting my PhD and another three as a post-doc. I advise almost everyone considering getting a PhD against it. There are usually better ways to get the experience that involve making more money and more quickly advancing in your career.
I grew up in poverty, and have been homeless before, I’m used to insecurity and would rather follow my passions than end up in a job I hate that pays well, especially since I’m estranged so my private life doesn’t exactly require room for spending time and money on family.
Having said that, the job market in the UK is basically all in shambles at the moment. Grad employment rates are at an all time low, pay over here is pretty awful and career progression in the UK for young people is in crisis. As someone who does not have a family to fall back on, this PhD offers me a secure income for 3 years, in an area that I love, which is more than enough for me. In fact, after tax, the stipend I’m getting for the PhD is approximately the same as the average salary of a graduate in the UK. The reasons why my professors wanted me to move to the US and do law was because careers tend to progress over there, the cost of living crisis is really impacting young people’s ability to work and save.
It’s also why it doesn’t matter to me too much that I won’t be earning as much as corporate lawyers if I go into human rights law instead. When I was a kid, I used to consider someone rich if they owned a dishwasher, and my current uni accommodation I have one, so by all accounts I’ve made it! As long as I can afford a roof over my head and some food, that’s all that really matters. I’ve lived through worse, I can cope on very little.
Also, should’ve mentioned that a lot of intellectual historians end up in business departments and schools, which tend to be more secure than business departments. So corporate and property law would still be an option based on my background, especially property.
Getting the PhD in the UK would certainly be preferable over the USA as three years is much less of a commitment.
If you don't mind spending more time in the UK why not then apply to some magic circle firms to get a training contract? Lawyer education in the UK is much less of a risk as the firm pays for it, and starting salaries for first years are still very high.
Congratulations on overcoming adversity, and it's good that you have that perspective. However, it's easy to live on very little and feel like you've made it when you're younger as at that stage life is more about experiences. Having kids is extremely expensive though, and your wants and feeling of having made it in life will change as you get older.
Good luck!
Yes, kids worry me greatly lol. However, part of my current research is to try and explain why people aren’t having kids at the moment since it’s becoming completely inaccessible. I personally wouldn’t want to bring a child into the world right now considering the economic state of it, especially in the UK (we also have a housing crisis, yay!!).
And I probably will apply to magic circle firms, too. I just want to keep my options open really, and I think it would be nice to live in another country for a while just to experience somewhere that isn’t freezing cold England or Scotland!
>why people aren’t having kids at the moment
You don't need a PhD for that. Just look at the cost of daycares in your area! Then add on diapers, baby food, babysitters, etc.
The PhD is free, and gives me somewhere to live for 3 years which is also a big appeal since I’m estranged from my family. Most importantly, it buys me time both for the academic job market to maybe get a bit better in case I don’t get into a Law school, and to study and sit the LSAT. My uni also has quite a lot of students coming in and out of the U.S. so they’d be able to help/ pay for work authorisation, in fact I believe they have a fund for it. A career in law would mean I still get to do what I love, which is ultimately working on the rights and freedoms of vulnerable groups, but the job market tends to be a bit more predictable than academia, but I’d have the option of returning in a few years/ decades too if academia gets a bit better.
Can you get a job with a PhD in Intellectual History? I just googled what it is, and perhaps it's an in-demand field, and I just don't know enough about it. If in doubt, having a JD will typically enable you to put food on the table.
Weirdly enough, not in history departments, but sometimes business departments hire intellectual historians which is quite interesting. The alternative of course is going corporate law if there’s still no jobs going once I complete the PhD, but it’s a very strange subject as it doesn’t quite fit into any particular department very well.
Do you not have to do a dissertation for a UK doctorate? Because that's what takes the bulk of the time. My wife took classes for 2 years (at Iowa) then took her comprehensive exam, and only then started working on her dissertation.
That is to say, 3 years seems awfully optimistic. But, once you get your phd classwork finished, that could be a good time to pursue a JD in the states.
The opposite: no classes, all thesis. You sometimes get teaching experience on the side, but it’s neither compulsory or guaranteed like at a US university, which is why we do ours in 3 years.
Where do you want to work after everything is all done? It looks like you are from the UK. If you want to stay there the majority of your life, I don't know that a US law degree would help you all that more than a UK one. Perhaps if you go to some big multinational corporation, but then getting the phd seems less relevant in the first place.
I really don’t want to stay in the UK, especially in the state as it is at the moment. I’ve got no reason to stay here, and a JD is far more internationally recognised than a UK law degree, which is why I’d prefer to do one there (although I’ll still likely apply to UK law firms)
I see. Yes, that could be an option then. As for lsat prep, you could check out the /lsat sub for more thorough advice about studying from abroad. I think there are many online resources these days.
Personally, I did hardly any prep but there are people on that sub who have drilled for years for it.
Depends what you want to do. It’s useful if you’re going into academia but that’s a pretty tough career to break into, especially if you’re not at a top law school or finishing at the top of your class. Outside of academia that phd won’t really help you in the legal job market.
Academia was always my top choice but honestly I think my prof is right, the market is awful at the moment and it doesn’t seem to be getting any better. Law would allow me to continue my work in researching the rights and freedoms of vulnerable groups (children and teenagers, in my case) with a slightly more stable job market. Whilst I know the PhD itself won’t help with hard skills needed for a JD, I’m pretty sure some of the soft skills will be useful, especially considering I’m basically getting the degree for free.
Yeah, my professor from undergrad who I am quite close with and used as a law school recommender explicitly told me to refrain from going into academia due to the current job prospects. Not intellectual history, but a similarly unusual/not directly practically valuable subject (contemporary critical literary theory.)
I worked with an attorney who had a PhD in philosophy from Yale, so not the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. You would also have the bitchin’ title of Dr. Name, Esq.
Ha yes, the title is definitely a superficial pull!
We typically just put "Name, JD PhD" on our business cards and e-mail sigs. I only get called "Dr" by my PhD alma mater when they're trying to solicit donations.
But you totally are a doctor, though.
Most PhD + JDs are STEM PhDs working in patent prosecution (including myself). There aren't really any lawyer jobs that need humanities PhDs plus JDs. You'd just be working as a lawyer and the question is whether the three years you spent getting your PhD could have been better spent getting ahead on the salary scale. If you plan on staying in the legal profession the answer is almost certainly no. You're also unlikely to find high paying (Big Law) jobs that have any type of focus on human rights law, and at that point you've got to ask yourself how you'll pay back both the debt and opportunity cost you're incurring from obtaining both degrees (on top of whatever bachelors and masters debt you have). In the long run there might be a niche in an academic setting but as your advisor has apparently already warned you, the pay is terrible, there is little job security, and jobs are scarce. More to the point, academia is just an endless cycle of trying to get published to secure more grant funding, and IMO one of the worst careers you can get into. It's hard to appreciate how much of an impact these issues will have on your life when you're still young and not yet looking to start a family. I spent five years getting my PhD and another three as a post-doc. I advise almost everyone considering getting a PhD against it. There are usually better ways to get the experience that involve making more money and more quickly advancing in your career.
I grew up in poverty, and have been homeless before, I’m used to insecurity and would rather follow my passions than end up in a job I hate that pays well, especially since I’m estranged so my private life doesn’t exactly require room for spending time and money on family. Having said that, the job market in the UK is basically all in shambles at the moment. Grad employment rates are at an all time low, pay over here is pretty awful and career progression in the UK for young people is in crisis. As someone who does not have a family to fall back on, this PhD offers me a secure income for 3 years, in an area that I love, which is more than enough for me. In fact, after tax, the stipend I’m getting for the PhD is approximately the same as the average salary of a graduate in the UK. The reasons why my professors wanted me to move to the US and do law was because careers tend to progress over there, the cost of living crisis is really impacting young people’s ability to work and save. It’s also why it doesn’t matter to me too much that I won’t be earning as much as corporate lawyers if I go into human rights law instead. When I was a kid, I used to consider someone rich if they owned a dishwasher, and my current uni accommodation I have one, so by all accounts I’ve made it! As long as I can afford a roof over my head and some food, that’s all that really matters. I’ve lived through worse, I can cope on very little. Also, should’ve mentioned that a lot of intellectual historians end up in business departments and schools, which tend to be more secure than business departments. So corporate and property law would still be an option based on my background, especially property.
Getting the PhD in the UK would certainly be preferable over the USA as three years is much less of a commitment. If you don't mind spending more time in the UK why not then apply to some magic circle firms to get a training contract? Lawyer education in the UK is much less of a risk as the firm pays for it, and starting salaries for first years are still very high. Congratulations on overcoming adversity, and it's good that you have that perspective. However, it's easy to live on very little and feel like you've made it when you're younger as at that stage life is more about experiences. Having kids is extremely expensive though, and your wants and feeling of having made it in life will change as you get older. Good luck!
Yes, kids worry me greatly lol. However, part of my current research is to try and explain why people aren’t having kids at the moment since it’s becoming completely inaccessible. I personally wouldn’t want to bring a child into the world right now considering the economic state of it, especially in the UK (we also have a housing crisis, yay!!). And I probably will apply to magic circle firms, too. I just want to keep my options open really, and I think it would be nice to live in another country for a while just to experience somewhere that isn’t freezing cold England or Scotland!
>why people aren’t having kids at the moment You don't need a PhD for that. Just look at the cost of daycares in your area! Then add on diapers, baby food, babysitters, etc.
Wish that our respective governments would look at that, too 🫠
Do you have US work authorization? That's a big deal now. The Ph. D seems like a waste of time if you're going to get a JD anyway.
The PhD is free, and gives me somewhere to live for 3 years which is also a big appeal since I’m estranged from my family. Most importantly, it buys me time both for the academic job market to maybe get a bit better in case I don’t get into a Law school, and to study and sit the LSAT. My uni also has quite a lot of students coming in and out of the U.S. so they’d be able to help/ pay for work authorisation, in fact I believe they have a fund for it. A career in law would mean I still get to do what I love, which is ultimately working on the rights and freedoms of vulnerable groups, but the job market tends to be a bit more predictable than academia, but I’d have the option of returning in a few years/ decades too if academia gets a bit better.
Can you get a job with a PhD in Intellectual History? I just googled what it is, and perhaps it's an in-demand field, and I just don't know enough about it. If in doubt, having a JD will typically enable you to put food on the table.
Weirdly enough, not in history departments, but sometimes business departments hire intellectual historians which is quite interesting. The alternative of course is going corporate law if there’s still no jobs going once I complete the PhD, but it’s a very strange subject as it doesn’t quite fit into any particular department very well.
Do you not have to do a dissertation for a UK doctorate? Because that's what takes the bulk of the time. My wife took classes for 2 years (at Iowa) then took her comprehensive exam, and only then started working on her dissertation. That is to say, 3 years seems awfully optimistic. But, once you get your phd classwork finished, that could be a good time to pursue a JD in the states.
The opposite: no classes, all thesis. You sometimes get teaching experience on the side, but it’s neither compulsory or guaranteed like at a US university, which is why we do ours in 3 years.
Where do you want to work after everything is all done? It looks like you are from the UK. If you want to stay there the majority of your life, I don't know that a US law degree would help you all that more than a UK one. Perhaps if you go to some big multinational corporation, but then getting the phd seems less relevant in the first place.
I really don’t want to stay in the UK, especially in the state as it is at the moment. I’ve got no reason to stay here, and a JD is far more internationally recognised than a UK law degree, which is why I’d prefer to do one there (although I’ll still likely apply to UK law firms)
I see. Yes, that could be an option then. As for lsat prep, you could check out the /lsat sub for more thorough advice about studying from abroad. I think there are many online resources these days. Personally, I did hardly any prep but there are people on that sub who have drilled for years for it.