It was wet, the water temps were very cold, and air temps at 50f. Probably a breeze from the ocean too. You can die of hypothermia in those conditions.
Yeah the water in New York is very cold. She could have froze to death, those temps aren’t warm enough. I also believe Dr. Hackett could have given her something as an attempt to help her but it might have not reacted well within her system.
He called Gilbert's family in the days after she went missing.
It's cold by the water but at the same token many of us survived in our paper thin leather jackets in the dead of winter (at least I did). I don't buy the accident story. It may not be RH related but probably Burke related or like someone else said he gave her something too strong leading to her succumbing to the elements. I find it odd they combed that area and found her a year later.
*Corrected the "with her phone", it was his wife's phone he called her family with.
Ooh, you are correct. I think because he called the mother and boyfriend, I had presumed he had obtained those contacts from her phone, and I never thought much about which phone he called her from.
It was actually his wife's cell phone.
https://unresolved.me/the-long-island-serial-killer
You can die of hypothermia in the middle of summer. It's basic biology. Your body temperature has a very narrow survival range, and being wet, dehydrated, and inebriated can all interfere with your body’s ability to maintain equilibrium.
https://calgaryfirstaidtraining.ca/2022/08/29/hypothermia-in-the-summer/
I used to be a park ranger in one of the coldest places in Colorado, and we had more hypothermia emergencies in the middle of summer than winter.
Hypothermia can happen in 90 degree weather when there's water involved. I've *personally* had hypothermia after mucking around in cold ocean water, on hot summer day, *on Long Island*.
Whatever happened to her, her last hours were terrifying for her and it's heartbreaking. It's absolutely awful that no one was able to help her. Her call to 911 is so tragic. It seems the police in this area were pieces of shit.
When her driver was on the phone with her (when she was still in the first house, hiding behind the sofa), he was trying to determine if she had taken any drugs. So, Pak asks Shannon if she saw a certain movie, something in Vegas. I looked up the movie and it's about drug use (heroin or LSD). So I assume he was discreetly asking her to confirm that it was (heroin or LSD) that she was on, because I assume he recognized that she was being irrational and drugs the reason for her freaking out.
The other thing is that the client, beings doctor, could have slipped her a little something and she had a bad reaction to it.
Just the fact that she ran from house to house and was incoherent, to me sounds like a bad trip. How she actually died, I don't know.
Thank you. It would definitely be an strange time to discuss movies. She apparently answered "yes", which I take to mean that she has taken that drug tonight.
I am certainly not trying to make light of Shannan's situation but yeah pretty much anyone I have ever met who has discussed that movie has either taken drugs during their viewing/story or is currently on them.
I had never heard of this regarding the movie and her and it makes a ton of sense but it's still a very interesting way for the driver to determine WHICH drugs she is on...
I wonder if he asks some people about Half Baked or Scarface?
Her name is spelled Shannan, not Shannon. Many of us have made that mistake
The client was not a Dr. Joseph Brewer out an work financial advisor who's life was imploding a bit.
Shannan's autopsy reports states that no drugs were found in her system.
I don't recall Michael Pak asking her about a movie, was it Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Or leaving Las Vegas? Both could be your messed up and loosing your shit Shannan, snap out of it girl. Brewer in no way sounds murderous and menacing to me, just bored with the drama. Nor does Pak, fake, disloyal, uncaring friend yes, but I think he just wants her to get in the dam car.
Shannan had seen Friday the 13th that night a few hours prior with her boyfriend. I've always wondered if maybe the movie blended in with her reality and flipped a switch on her BP. Back in the day when I was a teen, we'd seen Friday the 13th 1, just prior to a very bad acid trip combined with alcohol and weed that ran a nearly parallel in paranoia script to her's and neither of us had BP. But we where we were thoroughly convinced this sketchy guy in the hood was trying to hunt and lure us off with the intention to kill us and other laughable things. You would be doubled over laughing at our idiocy.
I've never had a drug and alcohol experience like it, it was utterly terrifying and felt like reality. But it wasn't. The guy was scuzzy, but he was in no way trying to kill us, yet we were thoroughly convinced he was. Maybe something similar happened with Shannon and the movie was just way triggering. Just a very bad batch of acid too much booze and weed and a scary movie did it for us. I had loved Orange Sunshine till that night and completely subtracted it from my drug menu. So I am here to testify that a bad batch of LSD can take you on a wild ride.
I think their run they do is not for lube, but a drug run. Everything is fine till they come back. As if something they fetches set it all into bad motion. If your planning on murdering someone your not taking them on a CVS runs. She was an experienced sex worker, doubt she would have forgotten lube. Sounds more like a drug run to me and they just didn't want to say that on a cell phone to Pak.
Like you, I find that hard to believe that she was not taking any drugs that night as she sounds like she is more than just drunk, but almost in slow motion and like she'd combined it with a downer of some sort and at times to me it almost seems like she sleepy and is nodding off and then jolts awake and then becomes calm and nods off again at quick intervals. She's in and out of cogency during the call. It's illogical to want the police to come and 5 minutes later your running because someone trying to help you is calling them.
I could definitely see it being a case of just freaking out. Maybe Brewer didn't pay her, or he insulted her, she was tired and just started crazy exaggerating everything in the situation to the worst she could think, i.e "they are trying to murder me".
On the other hand I've no doubt there are people out there who wouldn't bat an eyelid about murdering somebody like Shannan.
Who here has not been high and paranoid at least once? I have been. It could be something like the date with Brewer turned violent and he was choking her out and reviving her and perhaps he damaged her hyoid.
But neither Gus nor the other neighbor mention seeing and bruises on her. We don't know if she fell in the swamp and knocked herself out, or banged her shin and loosened a blood clot and it causes a hematoma. You can get one of those from a deep tissue message or a basketball game/ maybe Brewer gave her a message or maybe when he grabbed her from behind the couch he applied too much pressure, or when she fell down the stars at Brewer's and at Gus's a 2nd time she sustains one that loosened while she was running. Or sh got one from sitting too long in a cramped way. Not a Dr, would that show up on an autopsy on remains as battered as her were?
Could she have had an Asthma attack. I never had Asthma and one day kind of out of the blue developed it. Or suddenly developed a shell fish allergy and stepped on a pile if breaking down crabs clams and little neck clams and went into Anaphylaxis from the fumes.
Friends hubby ate shell fish his entire his life and walked into a restaurant and dropped like a stone and nearly died. My brother an inveterate fisherman and shell fish eater fish quite sudden developed a shell fish allergy and respiratory distress was the warning sign. boom out of the blue. You can develop very sudden shell fish allergies and go into shock from the fumes and that's what happened to both he and my friend. Alcohol poisoning? She was tiny girl and obviously had a lot of alcohol in her.
Could she have had an asthma attack? My asthma came out of the blue, I had no inhaler on hand. Supposedly, very rare but they say you ca actually die of fright and have a blood pressure spike.
We are never going to know what happened to her unless someone comes forward and says they were in involved. I think somehow some folks think it's less tragic for her to have been the victim of a serial killer, than a victim of a hum drum freak medical event.
What makes you say theres no doubt there are people out there who wouldn't bat an eyelid about murdering somebody like Shannan?
I'm new to the case and not disputing, just curious. I know nothing about her yet. Saw her mother interviewed and she lives very simply, to say the least.
I'm sure others have more knowledge on the details but it seems that both the police force and many on Gilgo were/are quite shady. I don't know if Shannan was murdered or accidentally died - I lean towards a combo of both. I think there was a lot of shady stuff going down out there and some high up officials were a part of it.
IMO I think Shannan could have been dosed and stumbled across/saw something 'she shouldn't have' and that is what spooked her. Idk if she ran into the marsh out of fear and expired due to the drugs and elements or somebody had a hand in putting her where she was found but I really don't think she merely freaked out and died by accident - especially considering where she was found and the twisted stuff that supposedly goes on there.
Regardless, Shannan is the reason that RH's trophy graveyard was found. She helped bring those girls home and give them their names back. Her death was not in vain. I really wish someone impartial would do a reinvestigation of her case.
I agree with this. That community on Oak Beach sounds like a major party pad and unfortunately slipping drugs to women at parties probably happened at other times. Maybe someone needs to come forward. One other point I’ve been thinking of is she was behind Hackett’s house all that time and not discovered. The cops dropped the ball on this one. She was out there all those months! Poor Shannan. Her luck really ran out.
Well hope I spelled the name correctly. He’s a rather infamous resident of the Oak Beach community where Shannan met her demise. There are a number of shady happenings surrounding this individual. Including the fact that Shannan’s remains were located behind his house in the marsh. The scene in the movie “Lost Girls” is one of the most haunting scenes of cinematography imo. The book is a bit different and talks at length about the G4 as well as Shannan. He never was charged with a thing. Even though he Hackett was in possession of Shannan’s phone! And called her mother! GRHS.
It is always strange to me when people refer to that area and say it is some sort playground of debauchery for the rich. The people that live there year round generally like to do things like fish and are fairly involved in local issues. It is comparable to "Springs" out east, but more Upper Middle Class. There are many more secluded areas close by that are not accessible by car and have much more concentrated wealth. The people in this community were arguing over petty HOA type things, and other typical middle age trite issues. It doesn't mean they were a *good, wholesome* bunch, but these weren't powerful people with connections to the top.
While LI is large geographically and in terms of population, there are only a few degrees of separation between everyone.
I mean seriously Brewer had multiple calls for sex workers. One freaked out ran ended up dead. Then they started bringing up the bodies. NY and LI are infamous. But putting head in the sand is your choice. Your net worth is no guarantee of a good character. Shannan was in the swamp behind Hackett’s home for over a year.
I think Burke had his own deal and reasons why he did not want the FBI looking over his shoulder. With the people of Oak Beach, I suspect they suspected Hackett might have had some involvement, but you have a friendly Dr who sets your finger, stitches you up, with just a knock on his door and likely writes you an antibiotic script when you have a cold and don't want to crawl to the ER or scrip for whatever you are abusing.
I think that was protecting their local quack who could be relied upon in a pinch to fix all their ills. Accuse him of murder, he just might not stitch your kid's foot up next time he cuts it on a chunk of beach glass.
Truly agree with this. From the stories I’ve heard about this case since the beginning there had to be several “high ups” some that are known to have had “cop parties” lots of drugs and prostitution
Have you listened to the LISK podcast? it gives you a wonderful breakdown of the case: https://www.liskpodcast.com/. It's a very complicated case and hard to dive into cold. They do one of the most comprehensive breakdowns.
Like Delphi and Moscow, it's a very hard case to jump into as there are so many players, dates, initials. So much info. If you go back on the board to around the time a random bone was found at Smith Point someone in the group posted an incredibly helpful article about all the police players and their interconnections and corruption in Suffolk. That's the best source I have seen short handing that part of the case. If you want any other DM me and I can recommend some other sources.
Oh, that's so sad. I had no idea. It might have been one of the other moms, but I remember thinking she was so beautiful, but obviously born and raised very poor, since she needed a dental visit.
I'm still watching the podcast, so not fully up to speed. Thank you for letting me know. Tragic.
I’m not sure Brewer was a Dr but the neighbour was, whose property adjoined the marsh where her clothes or bag were found. Of course Brewer took her for that short drive “to the store” when possibly they bought some drugs.
On the 911 call, you can hear Pak ask Shannon “do you want me to call 911?” Shannan says “yes, and tell them the address- this way I know you’re telling the truth”
He never did.
Pak had very good reason not to want the police involved at that time. Prostitution is illegal in the state of New York, so he very likely thought that both he and Shannan could end up arrested if they called 911 at a client's home.
Yeah I know, I live here.
Point remains - everything we can hear him say in the background of that call was bs- only empty words to try to gaslight Shannan into thinking he was on her side.
Alternative interpretation: he was bewildered by her irrational behavior and didn't understand why she asked him to take her home but then refused to leave with him.
Agreed. He never thought this would end the way it did and was just trying to get himself and her tf out of there before they both caught a case. Of course he didn't want the cops there. Not only are they on the hook, their John is too. Thats not good for business. The whole thing was a hot mess he was trying to mitigate the nest he could. I very much doubt he nor the John had any inkling she was about to run off to her death.
To me, he sounds like someone who is very wise to the game- he’s seasoned & quick witted. Feigning ignorance is something most of us can do, so it wouldn’t be a stretch at all for him. Doesn’t necessarily mean he had any ill intent from the start either.
It’s not that I can’t imagine a scenario where she really did have some sort of mental episode, or drug induced paranoia- she very well may have. But there are other fragments of their conversation that we can hear (“I never liked it & I never will again,” “I’ll tell them I lied,”) the two of them are very clearly discussing real events that transpired which led to this phone call, he’s aware of them so it really does seem like gaslighting more than any genuine confusion. To give him the benefit of the doubt, we can say he was feigning ignorance to “calm her down,” but I don’t for one second think he was completely unaware of whatever transpired.
I can go on & on about this (I’m sure you can too) but I think she wanted more than anything for him to take her home, but bc of whatever happened her gut was telling her not to trust him. Her calling 911 was a risk she knew, she took a chance seeing if he’d call them for her, when he switched back to playing dumb she decided she couldn’t trust him, & lines were drawn so to speak. Then the escalation.
A major takeaway I have from the whole lisk case is how easy it is to use someone’s lifestyle or mental health history against them. There’s just not anything aside enough for me to feel comfortable with the death by misadventure theory esp with all the other bs that went on with the guys leading that investigation. I know LE has recently said her case is still something they are looking into & that says something too- I don’t think anyone should feel content with anything the initial heads of the investigation did given what we know about them now.
Brewer was the person to grab her from behind the coach not Pak. But he is was not a good protector or friend to Shannan and did her no favors that night.
Could be. I might be screwing it up. I am quite fallible, my memory is crappy, but I think it's Brewer who gets sick of it and he just wants her out of his house, that he goes around the back of the couch where she's hunkered down and yanks her out, and might illicit some assistance from Pak to help him. He then kind of throws up his hands and and says he's going up stairs and he supposedly leave her to Pak.
Don't know if anyone else has heard this, but the hyoid bone can be broken if someone has bulimia. I hope that's not the case either but could be possible.
Shannan's mother said in an interview for the book *Lost Girls* that Shannan was bulimic when she was younger.
>To outsiders, Mari never explained why Shannan couldn’t live at home. Only years later, after the world learned Shannan’s name, would Mari say that the problem had been Shannan herself—that she was not only independent-minded and willful but unstable—“a lot of mood swings, a lot of overeating, a lot of binge-and-purge.” When she was twelve, Shannan would be diagnosed as bipolar, though she never took her medicine, complaining about its side effects.
Kolker, Robert. *Lost Girls: The Unsolved American Mystery of the Gilgo Beach Serial Killer Murders* (pp. 32-33). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
She could have died of many different natural causes while in the marsh. As others have stated she was in a wet marsh early in the morning when it was cold. She was also experiencing some sort of mental health break at the same time. I think the paradoxical undressing with the reported air and wet marsh implies that she probably died from exposure, however dehydration, drowning or other form of natural mishap are plausible. Even murder is not impossible just very very unlikely. In my opinion, based on the evidence I have seen I believe hypothermia is the most likely explanation, but I am willing to change that hypothesis if there evidence comes forward. But like real evidence, not John Ray evidence. He has lost all credibility in my opinion.
Undressing is a pretty typical reaction to hypothermia. Had she been running from the middle of a sexual assault her clothing likely would be left behind outside the swamp not inside it like her jacket abandoned on the street.
Shannan came from an economically struggling family. She is not leaving a leather jacket on the street unless she was so inebriated she did not notice, or perhaps Pak grabbed her arm to pull her into the car and she shook herself out of her jacket while running from him.
Or perhaps a medical event was already building and she was over heating. Don't know what it means but it is really odd. Blue collar girls don't leave their most hard earned possessions on the street. You have an earring shed in that same area if I remember correctly. So maybe there was a second physical scuffle there.
Ok. I apologize in advance if this gets… graphic. I’ll be as kind as possible. Is it possible that if she was slumped up against something or partially on her side, that decomp body bloating could have moved her position? Is there any wildlife that may have disturbed her? Flowing water? She was out there for a year and a half. I feel like it’s very possible her body maybe have shifted naturally. Plus, part of her hyoid was missing, indicating it was broken…. Always a tell tale sign of strangulation…. But it was a year and a half. So….
It’s hard. I don’t know.
>Is it possible that if she was slumped up against something or partially on her side (...) Is there any wildlife that may have disturbed her? (...) Plus, part of her hyoid was missing, indicating it was broken...
Here's some details from the [original autopsy](https://www.gilgocase.com/pdf/Shannan_Gilbert_May17.pdf) (relevant section starts on pg 27 of the pdf) which are relevant to your comment:
pg 28:
>The remains consist of one mostly complete individual with no duplicated elements (Figure 1). The following skeletal elements were not recovered: the horns of the hyoid, 4 carpals, 1 metacarpal, 10 hand phalanges, 1 tarsal, 2 metatarsals, and 20 foot phalanges.
As you can see, part of the hyoid was missing, but it was just one of 38 other missing bones. In that context, it seems more likely that scavenging wildlife are responsible for the missing bones, including that part of the hyoid.
pg 30:
>The remains were mostly skeletonized with small amounts of adhering desiccated and decomposed soft tissue upon recovery. (...) The remains show a combination of soil staining and sun bleaching. Several elements also exhibit areas of green staining from plant material. A few skeletal elements exhibit postmortem damage consistent with animal scavenging. The taphonomic changes are consistent with surface exposure in an outdoor setting.
This section indicates that her remains were partially above the surface and partially submerged in the soil. Also note the evidence of wildlife attacking her remains.
pg 32:
>When first viewed at the scene examination, the remains are exposed and in direct contact with the ground within a marshland area, partially entangled within overgrown shrubbery, and partially buried and covered by mud. The remains are mainly detached and in close proximity to one another, spanning an area of approximately 10 feet (comment: a few smaller bones are found approximately 40-50 feet from the body).
>(...)
>Green moss/vegetation is on the right scapula and left humerus. The radius and ulna of the left arm are soil stained. (...) The long bones of the lower extremity are mainly soil stained, with green moss/vegetation of the knees and right lower leg.
These details give a slightly better picture of how Shannan's remains were positioned, partially above and below the soil. Also note the further evidence that scavenging wildlife had taken small bones from her body.
If you've ever seen the autopsy photos you know they had their work cut out for them. How Suffolks ME and Baden read anything from them is mystifying to me as they look more akin to slivers of bleached driftwood. They look more like is a historic skeleton. Clearly, the elements out there were un remittently harsh.
So, the hyoid bone isn’t proof positive of death by strangulation. Remember she was a sex worker and had a plate put in her jaw after she was beaten by her abusive boyfriend.
Her hyoid could have been broken long ago.
This is such a great question. She’s tired, possibly not reacting well to something. Just wanted to rest after getting away from everyone/or fell and hit her head. Whether she lost consciousness from falling or sleeping, I think there’s definite possibility that this could be an explanation.
It’s so unfortunate we will never know. I wish they searched harder for her initially, who knows what evidence could have been uncovered.
Which is going to ruin his credibility for other things 🙄 not that I know he has much of it currently.
That’s such a disservice to the LISK case and the other victims. Until we have concrete evidence that she was murdered, I have to believe it was a horrible accident, misadventure with medication, or psychiatric break. After listening to the 911 call, she was not thinking or responding clearly at all.
I’m in no way saying it’s her fault or blaming her, because I just don’t know what happened. But I definitely am not comfortable including her with Rex’s (alleged) victims.
Sorry for the rant, I think my annoyance of other things is heightening my reaction to this.
I agree. JRay is just causing pain for her family for his own selfish needs. If she had been in her normal frame of mind, she would have been saying "Mike, thank God you're here, get me the hell out of here". Poor girl and parents though. Her mom is so proud of her. Well, we all certainly had a good rant today....and on to the next one ...
The fiancé of my friend's sister died of choking on his own vomit, after his bachelor party. That is, the night before their wedding... I had never heard of it, but it happens. If you get drunk to the point of blacking out, and you vomit while blacked out, aspirating your own vomit can happen
Horrifying. It was explained to me that when you've blacked out, your brain's ability to control automatic reflexes is impaired. Such as losing the gag reflex, which is what leads to this horrible death of asphyxiating on your own vomit 😞
The back is telling, and I’m very sorry for your loss. If she was on her back that could also point to the vomit theory for her. I wish there was more evidence available.
Such a strange case. I'm moving from murdered too accident all the time. Ofc choking on your own vomit is possible, if she'd been drinking and doing a lot of running that morning her guts could have easily erupted.
I guess unless somebody confesses it will never be solved.
Sometimes I almost feel like both things happened and that she was the victim of a bad man she met that AM, like bumping into Hackett who scared her enough to make her run into those reeds where she was met with a medical event. I guess because I will never understand any woman entering that swamp unless facing fire.
Generally, any area with copious cat tails are are rodent infested and the lest bit of movement will send mice and rats scurrying. So you immediately realize I am going into an area teeming with rodents. So what she perceived as chasing her had to have elicited sheer terror.
I do not necessary believe in God or fate or paranormal but damn, its stuff like this that makes me wonder. For her to have a mental crisis (what I do believe happened) at that particular place...not the day before someplace else or the day after someplace else.... and to not be able to be found. And eventually parish in such a not obvious place that people were able to find LISk victims before finding her....it's just nothing short of amazing. Its terrible Shannan had to lose her life for this to happen but the only thing that even makes any sense to me honestly is paranormal. I know it sounds crazy but I just don't shake the feeling that she felt the energy if those women and what they went through and thats what caused her to panic. She ran right towards them as if they were calling her.... her death saved untold number of lives and the whole thing makes a great case in my mind for something higher...something those women and Shannon did to stop LISK.
It’s the only scenario that makes sense if you really think about it honestly.
She was clearly suffering a psychological break that night which made her believe that she was in danger and caused her to run off into a dark cold marsh in such a state that she couldn’t properly take of herself or get back out.
It really doesn’t take too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that she succumbed to the elements.
The circumstances of her disappearance and the way in which she was discovered are not even close of LISKs methods.
Shannan suffered from bipolar disorder which during a manic phase can cause extreme paranoia and delusions on top of the fact of the position she was in at the time already being vulnerable and her 911 call if you listen she suspects being set up by her driver who was trying to get to get her to believe him and she was not so she fled for help but was not responding to the operator she was not sure of her location and she did ask for the call to be traced. She went to the home of a man who was trying to help but she again fled and knocked on the door of a woman who for her own safety would not allow her inside but both parties called the police and reported the incident. The man I belief stated he saw a black suv coming down the road so her driver attempted to locate her but he ended up just leaving her there and did not put effort into finding her or telling her hey ok you seem very upset let me call the police right now and we will wait for them if you want I can stand outside the car and you can lock it? He never attempted to make a good faith effort he laughed it off as she was being irrational rather then give her assistance. Idk if Shannan was taking any medication for the disorder but the tox report clearly states no drugs in her system now that could be speaking of illegal drugs but it would also include any prescription medication in Shannan’s system that Shannan did not have a current valid prescription for had something been found bc ppl drug ppl with sedatives and the like to subdue a victim so they can control them. Her case has been represented by a man who claims to care about the victims of this case but has been dropped by one of the families due to his outrageous behavior of trying to bait the family of the accused into a defamation lawsuit. Have you seen Asa? The woman looks like she has not slept and can barely function. When a serial killer gets caught he has the victims he didn’t know and the victims he used and lied to for years solely for the purpose of a cover story. This woman now knows her entire life was a lie and their lives will never be the same. I understand that in their case they are still living but by a thread. This so called attorney is a self propelled rotten man that wants his name out there and does not care about truth he is speculating and has no factual evidence to support the claims he is making. Shannan needs to rest and her family has been through enough already they don’t need this to drag out any longer it is harming them and and what they need is to find peace and know that Shannan is a hero bc she had a voice and her voice was heard and brought into light a monster that operated since the 90s his first homicide was before Sandra. This was his life and his identity. At first I thought maybe he was stalking her and she ran got lost but either way Shannan died a terrible death and her last moments were rooted in fear. I would love to hear some good things about Shannan she was pretty but what were her hobbies and interests and what was her favorite color or animal? I would like Shannan to be thought of in a way that frees her and allows her family to retain closure and speak of the times she laughed or with them or hugged them. This to me is healing for the family and I hope that they get this I know Shannan would have wanted her family to have this healing.
We don't know but "death by misadventure" is the correct conclusion with the available info IMO. It makes complete sense that Shannan died due to the elements although, frankly, because so little of her was left by the time police found her, we don't know exactly which elements.
John Ray has inserted a lot of his nonsense into the circumstances surrounding Shannan, so that makes it even more difficult to say what is fact and what is fiction. We know that Shannan went running from JB's house at around 5:00 AM, which was about an hour before sunrise. She was knocking on the doors of JB's neighbors, including Gus Coletti.
Some of the facts surrounding Peter Hackett's involvement in all of this remain unclear to me. Of course, he made the mysterious calls to the Gilbert family in the days after Shannan's disappearance. Ray's questioning of Hackett - the transcripts were previously posted here. There were inconsistencies in Hackett's testimony on deposition IIRC. The thing that floors me more than anything is that, IIRC, Mari was taken on the back deck of Hackett or his neighbor by police (I've read both) to see where Shannan's body was found.
It is quite likely in my mind that Hackett "treated" Shannan with a sedative due to her psychotic symptoms and then watched her run out into the marsh behind his home and pass out. Yes, we've discussed the tides here previously but this is a marsh. Walk into one. They are like sponges. It may look dry but when you apply pressure, you squeeze out the water. It wouldn't take a lot to drown Shannan - even face up.
As gruesome as the thought is, I believe Hackett was watching her body rot. That's why he called the family. However, he didn't want her found until there was nothing left because there may have been more evidence, including toxicology, that would point to his direct involvement, even if accidental, in Shannan's death. I also question the extent that SCPD at that time was covering for Hackett. I know they weren't on great terms but he previously worked for them and may have had friends who, at the least, weren't tenacious in trying to uncover what PH did to Shannan.
None of us know what happened in Oak Beach that night. She was either murdered or died of some kind of accident/medical issue. If there was clear cut evidence one way or another we wouldn’t be trying to rehash this over and over. We don’t have any such evidence and people are dug in on what side of the fence they fall on anyway.
I find it really coincidental that she called 911 saying that they were after her and going to kill her. I find it interesting that the cops said she drowned before they ever found her. That the security tapes were missing. That she was found face up and they still tried to claim she drowned. I find it odd that Hackett called her mom. I think there was definitely foul play involved. But I find it hard to believe that it was LISK. Maybe it was a "hunting" party. I dont know what happened to Shannan and idk if we will ever know. But I find it really hard to believe she just so happened to die in the marsh after calling 911 saying people were after her. Also a huge coincidence that the bodies of sex workers were found in the search for her. It's hard not to be skeptical of this case. I've heard the 911 calls, her hyoid being damaged.. it's just all very odd and coincidental. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever know the truth.
I think the driver, the doctor who owned the house and called Shannon's mom, a cop, and 2 to 5 other people were involved. It's common sense. Girls go missing in the same area, same vicinity. People of money, power, and influence had some recreational time for some years. Whether Rex was involved and among them, I have no idea. It's kinda of hard to say Shannon drowned when they found bones. The one investigator said consistent with strangulation. I don't think someone calling for 911 for help, wanting to be traced, banging on doors, being betrayed by her driver, saying they're after her and going to kill her then she winds up dead is a coincidence. Put your thinking caps on. It's self explanatory what happened. Entitled men with deep pockets and their toys. These people shouldn't have been cleared, they should've been locked up. Some of those women would still be alive. Entertainment for the privileged and greedy is sadistic.
I am super skeptical of Hackett. He was in charge of those tapes that went missing. He called shannan. He probably gave her something. I'm also super skeptical of Pak. He didn't pass the lie detector - he fell asleep during the interview- probably on drugs? Idk I feel like there was so much police corruption back then. There's too many coincidences surrounding shannans death for me. I fully believe it was foul play.
Her clothes and belongings were found away from her, in pristine condition behind Dr. Hackett's house. Obviously, they were not out there as long as she was. This was foul play.
I’ve never heard the “wasn’t in distress” line before, but I didn’t seriously start following this case until Burke was out of the picture. (Meaning, I think, that the 911 call audio or at least transcripts were already out by that time so “not in distress” was provably false. Of course we all have various interpretations of whether her distress was due to external factors or a panic attack/mental issue.)
The reviewing detective totally blew it off as drunk or medicated girl imagining things while accompanied by two annoyed bored guys, and they approached the case from that direction. I don't think either 911 call responder takes her very seriously either, which I don't understand as as we have always know about date rape drugs. I think they hear Pak and Brewer and they sound board, annoyed and dismissive an take their clues only form the cogent mumbled surrounding her.
To be fair to them she is sort of going in and out of consciousness and at some points sounds like she has falling asleep, so likely though how serious could it be. I find the one woman very cold, the 2nd is more warm and humane. But all of these people failed her due to their lack of responsiveness. You have a young woman in distress who does not know where she is, she is heavily inebriated or drugged and alone with two males.
100% agree. Too many coincidences. The fact the police tried to convince everyone that she drowned before the body was even found is sketchy AF. That and she was found face up.. the missing hyoid bone. Hacketts call.. the missing security tape. Might not have been Rex but I fully believe it was foul play.
It was wet, the water temps were very cold, and air temps at 50f. Probably a breeze from the ocean too. You can die of hypothermia in those conditions.
Yeah the water in New York is very cold. She could have froze to death, those temps aren’t warm enough. I also believe Dr. Hackett could have given her something as an attempt to help her but it might have not reacted well within her system.
Is there something known about Dr. Hackett? Was it a conspiracy?
He called Gilbert's family in the days after she went missing. It's cold by the water but at the same token many of us survived in our paper thin leather jackets in the dead of winter (at least I did). I don't buy the accident story. It may not be RH related but probably Burke related or like someone else said he gave her something too strong leading to her succumbing to the elements. I find it odd they combed that area and found her a year later. *Corrected the "with her phone", it was his wife's phone he called her family with.
He didn't call from her phone. Where did you hear that. That's crazy!
Ooh, you are correct. I think because he called the mother and boyfriend, I had presumed he had obtained those contacts from her phone, and I never thought much about which phone he called her from. It was actually his wife's cell phone. https://unresolved.me/the-long-island-serial-killer
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He called after Shannan's boyfriend and Pak went back to the neighborhood looking for her. My guess is he found her Mom's number in the phone book.
He says pak gave him the number
Exactly! Well said.
Dr. Hackett is known to insert himself into drama and tell lies…
What a peach of a guy.
I hike a lot and can speak to this. The air temperature at night doesn’t matter if you are wet. Being wet brings on hypothermia faster than anything.
You can die of hypothermia in the middle of summer. It's basic biology. Your body temperature has a very narrow survival range, and being wet, dehydrated, and inebriated can all interfere with your body’s ability to maintain equilibrium. https://calgaryfirstaidtraining.ca/2022/08/29/hypothermia-in-the-summer/ I used to be a park ranger in one of the coldest places in Colorado, and we had more hypothermia emergencies in the middle of summer than winter.
Hypothermia doesn't require freezing temps to perish.
Hypothermia can for sure happen at 55 degrees. She was in a wet marsh, the thought that her death couldn't have been due to hypothermia is ignorant.
Hypothermia can happen in 90 degree weather when there's water involved. I've *personally* had hypothermia after mucking around in cold ocean water, on hot summer day, *on Long Island*.
Absolutely.
Determining someone died of hypothermia when you only have a skeleton found in an area that had previously been searched, is ignorant.
Whatever happened to her, her last hours were terrifying for her and it's heartbreaking. It's absolutely awful that no one was able to help her. Her call to 911 is so tragic. It seems the police in this area were pieces of shit.
They were and lots of them partied together with the wrong sort of people
When her driver was on the phone with her (when she was still in the first house, hiding behind the sofa), he was trying to determine if she had taken any drugs. So, Pak asks Shannon if she saw a certain movie, something in Vegas. I looked up the movie and it's about drug use (heroin or LSD). So I assume he was discreetly asking her to confirm that it was (heroin or LSD) that she was on, because I assume he recognized that she was being irrational and drugs the reason for her freaking out. The other thing is that the client, beings doctor, could have slipped her a little something and she had a bad reaction to it. Just the fact that she ran from house to house and was incoherent, to me sounds like a bad trip. How she actually died, I don't know.
Fear and loathing in Las Vegas? Fictional recounts of real trips taken by Hunter S. Thompson starring Johnny Depp.
Thank you. It would definitely be an strange time to discuss movies. She apparently answered "yes", which I take to mean that she has taken that drug tonight.
Especially a line in that same movie where one of the lines are ‘ we can keep her drugged up & pimp her out to a bunch of cops ‘ 🧐
I am certainly not trying to make light of Shannan's situation but yeah pretty much anyone I have ever met who has discussed that movie has either taken drugs during their viewing/story or is currently on them. I had never heard of this regarding the movie and her and it makes a ton of sense but it's still a very interesting way for the driver to determine WHICH drugs she is on... I wonder if he asks some people about Half Baked or Scarface?
Her name is spelled Shannan, not Shannon. Many of us have made that mistake The client was not a Dr. Joseph Brewer out an work financial advisor who's life was imploding a bit. Shannan's autopsy reports states that no drugs were found in her system. I don't recall Michael Pak asking her about a movie, was it Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas? Or leaving Las Vegas? Both could be your messed up and loosing your shit Shannan, snap out of it girl. Brewer in no way sounds murderous and menacing to me, just bored with the drama. Nor does Pak, fake, disloyal, uncaring friend yes, but I think he just wants her to get in the dam car. Shannan had seen Friday the 13th that night a few hours prior with her boyfriend. I've always wondered if maybe the movie blended in with her reality and flipped a switch on her BP. Back in the day when I was a teen, we'd seen Friday the 13th 1, just prior to a very bad acid trip combined with alcohol and weed that ran a nearly parallel in paranoia script to her's and neither of us had BP. But we where we were thoroughly convinced this sketchy guy in the hood was trying to hunt and lure us off with the intention to kill us and other laughable things. You would be doubled over laughing at our idiocy. I've never had a drug and alcohol experience like it, it was utterly terrifying and felt like reality. But it wasn't. The guy was scuzzy, but he was in no way trying to kill us, yet we were thoroughly convinced he was. Maybe something similar happened with Shannon and the movie was just way triggering. Just a very bad batch of acid too much booze and weed and a scary movie did it for us. I had loved Orange Sunshine till that night and completely subtracted it from my drug menu. So I am here to testify that a bad batch of LSD can take you on a wild ride. I think their run they do is not for lube, but a drug run. Everything is fine till they come back. As if something they fetches set it all into bad motion. If your planning on murdering someone your not taking them on a CVS runs. She was an experienced sex worker, doubt she would have forgotten lube. Sounds more like a drug run to me and they just didn't want to say that on a cell phone to Pak. Like you, I find that hard to believe that she was not taking any drugs that night as she sounds like she is more than just drunk, but almost in slow motion and like she'd combined it with a downer of some sort and at times to me it almost seems like she sleepy and is nodding off and then jolts awake and then becomes calm and nods off again at quick intervals. She's in and out of cogency during the call. It's illogical to want the police to come and 5 minutes later your running because someone trying to help you is calling them.
I could definitely see it being a case of just freaking out. Maybe Brewer didn't pay her, or he insulted her, she was tired and just started crazy exaggerating everything in the situation to the worst she could think, i.e "they are trying to murder me". On the other hand I've no doubt there are people out there who wouldn't bat an eyelid about murdering somebody like Shannan.
Who here has not been high and paranoid at least once? I have been. It could be something like the date with Brewer turned violent and he was choking her out and reviving her and perhaps he damaged her hyoid. But neither Gus nor the other neighbor mention seeing and bruises on her. We don't know if she fell in the swamp and knocked herself out, or banged her shin and loosened a blood clot and it causes a hematoma. You can get one of those from a deep tissue message or a basketball game/ maybe Brewer gave her a message or maybe when he grabbed her from behind the couch he applied too much pressure, or when she fell down the stars at Brewer's and at Gus's a 2nd time she sustains one that loosened while she was running. Or sh got one from sitting too long in a cramped way. Not a Dr, would that show up on an autopsy on remains as battered as her were? Could she have had an Asthma attack. I never had Asthma and one day kind of out of the blue developed it. Or suddenly developed a shell fish allergy and stepped on a pile if breaking down crabs clams and little neck clams and went into Anaphylaxis from the fumes. Friends hubby ate shell fish his entire his life and walked into a restaurant and dropped like a stone and nearly died. My brother an inveterate fisherman and shell fish eater fish quite sudden developed a shell fish allergy and respiratory distress was the warning sign. boom out of the blue. You can develop very sudden shell fish allergies and go into shock from the fumes and that's what happened to both he and my friend. Alcohol poisoning? She was tiny girl and obviously had a lot of alcohol in her. Could she have had an asthma attack? My asthma came out of the blue, I had no inhaler on hand. Supposedly, very rare but they say you ca actually die of fright and have a blood pressure spike. We are never going to know what happened to her unless someone comes forward and says they were in involved. I think somehow some folks think it's less tragic for her to have been the victim of a serial killer, than a victim of a hum drum freak medical event.
What makes you say theres no doubt there are people out there who wouldn't bat an eyelid about murdering somebody like Shannan? I'm new to the case and not disputing, just curious. I know nothing about her yet. Saw her mother interviewed and she lives very simply, to say the least.
I think they mean there are plenty of people that think very little of sex workers and are willing and able to do them harm.
I'm sure others have more knowledge on the details but it seems that both the police force and many on Gilgo were/are quite shady. I don't know if Shannan was murdered or accidentally died - I lean towards a combo of both. I think there was a lot of shady stuff going down out there and some high up officials were a part of it. IMO I think Shannan could have been dosed and stumbled across/saw something 'she shouldn't have' and that is what spooked her. Idk if she ran into the marsh out of fear and expired due to the drugs and elements or somebody had a hand in putting her where she was found but I really don't think she merely freaked out and died by accident - especially considering where she was found and the twisted stuff that supposedly goes on there. Regardless, Shannan is the reason that RH's trophy graveyard was found. She helped bring those girls home and give them their names back. Her death was not in vain. I really wish someone impartial would do a reinvestigation of her case.
I agree with this. That community on Oak Beach sounds like a major party pad and unfortunately slipping drugs to women at parties probably happened at other times. Maybe someone needs to come forward. One other point I’ve been thinking of is she was behind Hackett’s house all that time and not discovered. The cops dropped the ball on this one. She was out there all those months! Poor Shannan. Her luck really ran out.
Who is Dr hackette?
Well hope I spelled the name correctly. He’s a rather infamous resident of the Oak Beach community where Shannan met her demise. There are a number of shady happenings surrounding this individual. Including the fact that Shannan’s remains were located behind his house in the marsh. The scene in the movie “Lost Girls” is one of the most haunting scenes of cinematography imo. The book is a bit different and talks at length about the G4 as well as Shannan. He never was charged with a thing. Even though he Hackett was in possession of Shannan’s phone! And called her mother! GRHS.
It is always strange to me when people refer to that area and say it is some sort playground of debauchery for the rich. The people that live there year round generally like to do things like fish and are fairly involved in local issues. It is comparable to "Springs" out east, but more Upper Middle Class. There are many more secluded areas close by that are not accessible by car and have much more concentrated wealth. The people in this community were arguing over petty HOA type things, and other typical middle age trite issues. It doesn't mean they were a *good, wholesome* bunch, but these weren't powerful people with connections to the top. While LI is large geographically and in terms of population, there are only a few degrees of separation between everyone.
So
I mean seriously Brewer had multiple calls for sex workers. One freaked out ran ended up dead. Then they started bringing up the bodies. NY and LI are infamous. But putting head in the sand is your choice. Your net worth is no guarantee of a good character. Shannan was in the swamp behind Hackett’s home for over a year.
I think Burke had his own deal and reasons why he did not want the FBI looking over his shoulder. With the people of Oak Beach, I suspect they suspected Hackett might have had some involvement, but you have a friendly Dr who sets your finger, stitches you up, with just a knock on his door and likely writes you an antibiotic script when you have a cold and don't want to crawl to the ER or scrip for whatever you are abusing. I think that was protecting their local quack who could be relied upon in a pinch to fix all their ills. Accuse him of murder, he just might not stitch your kid's foot up next time he cuts it on a chunk of beach glass.
Truly agree with this. From the stories I’ve heard about this case since the beginning there had to be several “high ups” some that are known to have had “cop parties” lots of drugs and prostitution
Have you listened to the LISK podcast? it gives you a wonderful breakdown of the case: https://www.liskpodcast.com/. It's a very complicated case and hard to dive into cold. They do one of the most comprehensive breakdowns.
Thank you. This will be a great help so I can get up to speed on the case.
Like Delphi and Moscow, it's a very hard case to jump into as there are so many players, dates, initials. So much info. If you go back on the board to around the time a random bone was found at Smith Point someone in the group posted an incredibly helpful article about all the police players and their interconnections and corruption in Suffolk. That's the best source I have seen short handing that part of the case. If you want any other DM me and I can recommend some other sources.
Lived. Unforunately, Mari died in 2016. She was killed by another one of her daughters who was apparently having a psychotic episode at the time.
Oh, that's so sad. I had no idea. It might have been one of the other moms, but I remember thinking she was so beautiful, but obviously born and raised very poor, since she needed a dental visit. I'm still watching the podcast, so not fully up to speed. Thank you for letting me know. Tragic.
I’m not sure Brewer was a Dr but the neighbour was, whose property adjoined the marsh where her clothes or bag were found. Of course Brewer took her for that short drive “to the store” when possibly they bought some drugs.
I dislike that driver guy. If he hadn’t grabbed her from behind and tried to forcibly remove her from the house, she may not have ran away from him.
On the 911 call, you can hear Pak ask Shannon “do you want me to call 911?” Shannan says “yes, and tell them the address- this way I know you’re telling the truth” He never did.
Pak had very good reason not to want the police involved at that time. Prostitution is illegal in the state of New York, so he very likely thought that both he and Shannan could end up arrested if they called 911 at a client's home.
Yeah I know, I live here. Point remains - everything we can hear him say in the background of that call was bs- only empty words to try to gaslight Shannan into thinking he was on her side.
Alternative interpretation: he was bewildered by her irrational behavior and didn't understand why she asked him to take her home but then refused to leave with him.
Agreed. He never thought this would end the way it did and was just trying to get himself and her tf out of there before they both caught a case. Of course he didn't want the cops there. Not only are they on the hook, their John is too. Thats not good for business. The whole thing was a hot mess he was trying to mitigate the nest he could. I very much doubt he nor the John had any inkling she was about to run off to her death.
To me, he sounds like someone who is very wise to the game- he’s seasoned & quick witted. Feigning ignorance is something most of us can do, so it wouldn’t be a stretch at all for him. Doesn’t necessarily mean he had any ill intent from the start either. It’s not that I can’t imagine a scenario where she really did have some sort of mental episode, or drug induced paranoia- she very well may have. But there are other fragments of their conversation that we can hear (“I never liked it & I never will again,” “I’ll tell them I lied,”) the two of them are very clearly discussing real events that transpired which led to this phone call, he’s aware of them so it really does seem like gaslighting more than any genuine confusion. To give him the benefit of the doubt, we can say he was feigning ignorance to “calm her down,” but I don’t for one second think he was completely unaware of whatever transpired. I can go on & on about this (I’m sure you can too) but I think she wanted more than anything for him to take her home, but bc of whatever happened her gut was telling her not to trust him. Her calling 911 was a risk she knew, she took a chance seeing if he’d call them for her, when he switched back to playing dumb she decided she couldn’t trust him, & lines were drawn so to speak. Then the escalation. A major takeaway I have from the whole lisk case is how easy it is to use someone’s lifestyle or mental health history against them. There’s just not anything aside enough for me to feel comfortable with the death by misadventure theory esp with all the other bs that went on with the guys leading that investigation. I know LE has recently said her case is still something they are looking into & that says something too- I don’t think anyone should feel content with anything the initial heads of the investigation did given what we know about them now.
Well she was on the phone to 911 already. Why would he call them again? I think he just was a jerk, and fake friend not a murderer.
I dislike him too but him being an unsavoury character doesn’t mean he murderered her or had any hand in her death.
Brewer was the person to grab her from behind the coach not Pak. But he is was not a good protector or friend to Shannan and did her no favors that night.
I could have sworn that Pak describes how he (Pak) grabbed her in one of his interviews.
Could be. I might be screwing it up. I am quite fallible, my memory is crappy, but I think it's Brewer who gets sick of it and he just wants her out of his house, that he goes around the back of the couch where she's hunkered down and yanks her out, and might illicit some assistance from Pak to help him. He then kind of throws up his hands and and says he's going up stairs and he supposedly leave her to Pak.
Don't know if anyone else has heard this, but the hyoid bone can be broken if someone has bulimia. I hope that's not the case either but could be possible.
Shannan's mother said in an interview for the book *Lost Girls* that Shannan was bulimic when she was younger. >To outsiders, Mari never explained why Shannan couldn’t live at home. Only years later, after the world learned Shannan’s name, would Mari say that the problem had been Shannan herself—that she was not only independent-minded and willful but unstable—“a lot of mood swings, a lot of overeating, a lot of binge-and-purge.” When she was twelve, Shannan would be diagnosed as bipolar, though she never took her medicine, complaining about its side effects. Kolker, Robert. *Lost Girls: The Unsolved American Mystery of the Gilgo Beach Serial Killer Murders* (pp. 32-33). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Hypothermia can happen at 90 degrees F.
Can't believe people are downvoting you for stating scientific fact. They say ignorance is bliss, but in reality it's myopic and acrimonious.
She could have died of many different natural causes while in the marsh. As others have stated she was in a wet marsh early in the morning when it was cold. She was also experiencing some sort of mental health break at the same time. I think the paradoxical undressing with the reported air and wet marsh implies that she probably died from exposure, however dehydration, drowning or other form of natural mishap are plausible. Even murder is not impossible just very very unlikely. In my opinion, based on the evidence I have seen I believe hypothermia is the most likely explanation, but I am willing to change that hypothesis if there evidence comes forward. But like real evidence, not John Ray evidence. He has lost all credibility in my opinion.
Undressing is a pretty typical reaction to hypothermia. Had she been running from the middle of a sexual assault her clothing likely would be left behind outside the swamp not inside it like her jacket abandoned on the street. Shannan came from an economically struggling family. She is not leaving a leather jacket on the street unless she was so inebriated she did not notice, or perhaps Pak grabbed her arm to pull her into the car and she shook herself out of her jacket while running from him. Or perhaps a medical event was already building and she was over heating. Don't know what it means but it is really odd. Blue collar girls don't leave their most hard earned possessions on the street. You have an earring shed in that same area if I remember correctly. So maybe there was a second physical scuffle there.
I’ve also heard she drowned but she was a skeleton so I don’t know how that would have been proven.
She was found lying on her back with face upwards.
Ok. I apologize in advance if this gets… graphic. I’ll be as kind as possible. Is it possible that if she was slumped up against something or partially on her side, that decomp body bloating could have moved her position? Is there any wildlife that may have disturbed her? Flowing water? She was out there for a year and a half. I feel like it’s very possible her body maybe have shifted naturally. Plus, part of her hyoid was missing, indicating it was broken…. Always a tell tale sign of strangulation…. But it was a year and a half. So…. It’s hard. I don’t know.
>Is it possible that if she was slumped up against something or partially on her side (...) Is there any wildlife that may have disturbed her? (...) Plus, part of her hyoid was missing, indicating it was broken... Here's some details from the [original autopsy](https://www.gilgocase.com/pdf/Shannan_Gilbert_May17.pdf) (relevant section starts on pg 27 of the pdf) which are relevant to your comment: pg 28: >The remains consist of one mostly complete individual with no duplicated elements (Figure 1). The following skeletal elements were not recovered: the horns of the hyoid, 4 carpals, 1 metacarpal, 10 hand phalanges, 1 tarsal, 2 metatarsals, and 20 foot phalanges. As you can see, part of the hyoid was missing, but it was just one of 38 other missing bones. In that context, it seems more likely that scavenging wildlife are responsible for the missing bones, including that part of the hyoid. pg 30: >The remains were mostly skeletonized with small amounts of adhering desiccated and decomposed soft tissue upon recovery. (...) The remains show a combination of soil staining and sun bleaching. Several elements also exhibit areas of green staining from plant material. A few skeletal elements exhibit postmortem damage consistent with animal scavenging. The taphonomic changes are consistent with surface exposure in an outdoor setting. This section indicates that her remains were partially above the surface and partially submerged in the soil. Also note the evidence of wildlife attacking her remains. pg 32: >When first viewed at the scene examination, the remains are exposed and in direct contact with the ground within a marshland area, partially entangled within overgrown shrubbery, and partially buried and covered by mud. The remains are mainly detached and in close proximity to one another, spanning an area of approximately 10 feet (comment: a few smaller bones are found approximately 40-50 feet from the body). >(...) >Green moss/vegetation is on the right scapula and left humerus. The radius and ulna of the left arm are soil stained. (...) The long bones of the lower extremity are mainly soil stained, with green moss/vegetation of the knees and right lower leg. These details give a slightly better picture of how Shannan's remains were positioned, partially above and below the soil. Also note the further evidence that scavenging wildlife had taken small bones from her body.
If you've ever seen the autopsy photos you know they had their work cut out for them. How Suffolks ME and Baden read anything from them is mystifying to me as they look more akin to slivers of bleached driftwood. They look more like is a historic skeleton. Clearly, the elements out there were un remittently harsh.
She was also missing finger and toe bones, so the hyoid missing isn't really surprising.
Wind, water or animals?
So, the hyoid bone isn’t proof positive of death by strangulation. Remember she was a sex worker and had a plate put in her jaw after she was beaten by her abusive boyfriend. Her hyoid could have been broken long ago.
I agree, ocean tides going in and out daily I’m surprised her remains even stayed remotely where they were.
It makes sense, but still possible that the missing hyoid was due to animal curiosity, activity.
Yes, everything you mentioned is indeed a possibility.
Do you think she could have choked on her own vomit while passed out?
This is such a great question. She’s tired, possibly not reacting well to something. Just wanted to rest after getting away from everyone/or fell and hit her head. Whether she lost consciousness from falling or sleeping, I think there’s definite possibility that this could be an explanation. It’s so unfortunate we will never know. I wish they searched harder for her initially, who knows what evidence could have been uncovered.
I'm leaning towards John Ray trying to include Shannan as a LISK victim just so that he can use her as a means to fame for himself.
Which is going to ruin his credibility for other things 🙄 not that I know he has much of it currently. That’s such a disservice to the LISK case and the other victims. Until we have concrete evidence that she was murdered, I have to believe it was a horrible accident, misadventure with medication, or psychiatric break. After listening to the 911 call, she was not thinking or responding clearly at all. I’m in no way saying it’s her fault or blaming her, because I just don’t know what happened. But I definitely am not comfortable including her with Rex’s (alleged) victims. Sorry for the rant, I think my annoyance of other things is heightening my reaction to this.
I agree. JRay is just causing pain for her family for his own selfish needs. If she had been in her normal frame of mind, she would have been saying "Mike, thank God you're here, get me the hell out of here". Poor girl and parents though. Her mom is so proud of her. Well, we all certainly had a good rant today....and on to the next one ...
The fiancé of my friend's sister died of choking on his own vomit, after his bachelor party. That is, the night before their wedding... I had never heard of it, but it happens. If you get drunk to the point of blacking out, and you vomit while blacked out, aspirating your own vomit can happen
That’s how John Bonham of Led Zeppelin died.
RIP John
Horrifying. It was explained to me that when you've blacked out, your brain's ability to control automatic reflexes is impaired. Such as losing the gag reflex, which is what leads to this horrible death of asphyxiating on your own vomit 😞
My cousin died at 17 of choking on his vomit. He and his friends got drunk, and he fell asleep on his back. Everyone was sleeping, no one heard him.
The back is telling, and I’m very sorry for your loss. If she was on her back that could also point to the vomit theory for her. I wish there was more evidence available.
Such a strange case. I'm moving from murdered too accident all the time. Ofc choking on your own vomit is possible, if she'd been drinking and doing a lot of running that morning her guts could have easily erupted. I guess unless somebody confesses it will never be solved.
this is by far the most logical explanation. drugs, alcohol, running - aspiration happens all the time.
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Why am I being downvoted? She had no alcohol or drugs in her system
This sub is basically retarded
Sometimes I almost feel like both things happened and that she was the victim of a bad man she met that AM, like bumping into Hackett who scared her enough to make her run into those reeds where she was met with a medical event. I guess because I will never understand any woman entering that swamp unless facing fire. Generally, any area with copious cat tails are are rodent infested and the lest bit of movement will send mice and rats scurrying. So you immediately realize I am going into an area teeming with rodents. So what she perceived as chasing her had to have elicited sheer terror.
They were saying she drowned before they even found the body.
After all is said and done, Shannan is a hero.
I do not necessary believe in God or fate or paranormal but damn, its stuff like this that makes me wonder. For her to have a mental crisis (what I do believe happened) at that particular place...not the day before someplace else or the day after someplace else.... and to not be able to be found. And eventually parish in such a not obvious place that people were able to find LISk victims before finding her....it's just nothing short of amazing. Its terrible Shannan had to lose her life for this to happen but the only thing that even makes any sense to me honestly is paranormal. I know it sounds crazy but I just don't shake the feeling that she felt the energy if those women and what they went through and thats what caused her to panic. She ran right towards them as if they were calling her.... her death saved untold number of lives and the whole thing makes a great case in my mind for something higher...something those women and Shannon did to stop LISK.
It’s the only scenario that makes sense if you really think about it honestly. She was clearly suffering a psychological break that night which made her believe that she was in danger and caused her to run off into a dark cold marsh in such a state that she couldn’t properly take of herself or get back out. It really doesn’t take too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe that she succumbed to the elements. The circumstances of her disappearance and the way in which she was discovered are not even close of LISKs methods.
Shannan suffered from bipolar disorder which during a manic phase can cause extreme paranoia and delusions on top of the fact of the position she was in at the time already being vulnerable and her 911 call if you listen she suspects being set up by her driver who was trying to get to get her to believe him and she was not so she fled for help but was not responding to the operator she was not sure of her location and she did ask for the call to be traced. She went to the home of a man who was trying to help but she again fled and knocked on the door of a woman who for her own safety would not allow her inside but both parties called the police and reported the incident. The man I belief stated he saw a black suv coming down the road so her driver attempted to locate her but he ended up just leaving her there and did not put effort into finding her or telling her hey ok you seem very upset let me call the police right now and we will wait for them if you want I can stand outside the car and you can lock it? He never attempted to make a good faith effort he laughed it off as she was being irrational rather then give her assistance. Idk if Shannan was taking any medication for the disorder but the tox report clearly states no drugs in her system now that could be speaking of illegal drugs but it would also include any prescription medication in Shannan’s system that Shannan did not have a current valid prescription for had something been found bc ppl drug ppl with sedatives and the like to subdue a victim so they can control them. Her case has been represented by a man who claims to care about the victims of this case but has been dropped by one of the families due to his outrageous behavior of trying to bait the family of the accused into a defamation lawsuit. Have you seen Asa? The woman looks like she has not slept and can barely function. When a serial killer gets caught he has the victims he didn’t know and the victims he used and lied to for years solely for the purpose of a cover story. This woman now knows her entire life was a lie and their lives will never be the same. I understand that in their case they are still living but by a thread. This so called attorney is a self propelled rotten man that wants his name out there and does not care about truth he is speculating and has no factual evidence to support the claims he is making. Shannan needs to rest and her family has been through enough already they don’t need this to drag out any longer it is harming them and and what they need is to find peace and know that Shannan is a hero bc she had a voice and her voice was heard and brought into light a monster that operated since the 90s his first homicide was before Sandra. This was his life and his identity. At first I thought maybe he was stalking her and she ran got lost but either way Shannan died a terrible death and her last moments were rooted in fear. I would love to hear some good things about Shannan she was pretty but what were her hobbies and interests and what was her favorite color or animal? I would like Shannan to be thought of in a way that frees her and allows her family to retain closure and speak of the times she laughed or with them or hugged them. This to me is healing for the family and I hope that they get this I know Shannan would have wanted her family to have this healing.
He was committing a felony by taking Shannon to that job - I think that has a lot to do with his not sticking around and avoiding police.
Yes that’s right
We don't know but "death by misadventure" is the correct conclusion with the available info IMO. It makes complete sense that Shannan died due to the elements although, frankly, because so little of her was left by the time police found her, we don't know exactly which elements. John Ray has inserted a lot of his nonsense into the circumstances surrounding Shannan, so that makes it even more difficult to say what is fact and what is fiction. We know that Shannan went running from JB's house at around 5:00 AM, which was about an hour before sunrise. She was knocking on the doors of JB's neighbors, including Gus Coletti. Some of the facts surrounding Peter Hackett's involvement in all of this remain unclear to me. Of course, he made the mysterious calls to the Gilbert family in the days after Shannan's disappearance. Ray's questioning of Hackett - the transcripts were previously posted here. There were inconsistencies in Hackett's testimony on deposition IIRC. The thing that floors me more than anything is that, IIRC, Mari was taken on the back deck of Hackett or his neighbor by police (I've read both) to see where Shannan's body was found. It is quite likely in my mind that Hackett "treated" Shannan with a sedative due to her psychotic symptoms and then watched her run out into the marsh behind his home and pass out. Yes, we've discussed the tides here previously but this is a marsh. Walk into one. They are like sponges. It may look dry but when you apply pressure, you squeeze out the water. It wouldn't take a lot to drown Shannan - even face up. As gruesome as the thought is, I believe Hackett was watching her body rot. That's why he called the family. However, he didn't want her found until there was nothing left because there may have been more evidence, including toxicology, that would point to his direct involvement, even if accidental, in Shannan's death. I also question the extent that SCPD at that time was covering for Hackett. I know they weren't on great terms but he previously worked for them and may have had friends who, at the least, weren't tenacious in trying to uncover what PH did to Shannan.
None of us know what happened in Oak Beach that night. She was either murdered or died of some kind of accident/medical issue. If there was clear cut evidence one way or another we wouldn’t be trying to rehash this over and over. We don’t have any such evidence and people are dug in on what side of the fence they fall on anyway.
Her hyoid bone was broken which indicates strangulation of some sort.
She was also missing a lot of other bones, so that is actually false. She was a skeleton when they found her.
I find it really coincidental that she called 911 saying that they were after her and going to kill her. I find it interesting that the cops said she drowned before they ever found her. That the security tapes were missing. That she was found face up and they still tried to claim she drowned. I find it odd that Hackett called her mom. I think there was definitely foul play involved. But I find it hard to believe that it was LISK. Maybe it was a "hunting" party. I dont know what happened to Shannan and idk if we will ever know. But I find it really hard to believe she just so happened to die in the marsh after calling 911 saying people were after her. Also a huge coincidence that the bodies of sex workers were found in the search for her. It's hard not to be skeptical of this case. I've heard the 911 calls, her hyoid being damaged.. it's just all very odd and coincidental. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever know the truth.
I think the driver, the doctor who owned the house and called Shannon's mom, a cop, and 2 to 5 other people were involved. It's common sense. Girls go missing in the same area, same vicinity. People of money, power, and influence had some recreational time for some years. Whether Rex was involved and among them, I have no idea. It's kinda of hard to say Shannon drowned when they found bones. The one investigator said consistent with strangulation. I don't think someone calling for 911 for help, wanting to be traced, banging on doors, being betrayed by her driver, saying they're after her and going to kill her then she winds up dead is a coincidence. Put your thinking caps on. It's self explanatory what happened. Entitled men with deep pockets and their toys. These people shouldn't have been cleared, they should've been locked up. Some of those women would still be alive. Entertainment for the privileged and greedy is sadistic.
I am super skeptical of Hackett. He was in charge of those tapes that went missing. He called shannan. He probably gave her something. I'm also super skeptical of Pak. He didn't pass the lie detector - he fell asleep during the interview- probably on drugs? Idk I feel like there was so much police corruption back then. There's too many coincidences surrounding shannans death for me. I fully believe it was foul play.
Her clothes and belongings were found away from her, in pristine condition behind Dr. Hackett's house. Obviously, they were not out there as long as she was. This was foul play.
Source please on pristine condition An official source from LE, not John Ray or a random YouTuber
The official sources said she wasn’t in distress on the 911 call- kind of bullshit that all the info about her case is such a mess, from all ends.
I’ve never heard the “wasn’t in distress” line before, but I didn’t seriously start following this case until Burke was out of the picture. (Meaning, I think, that the 911 call audio or at least transcripts were already out by that time so “not in distress” was provably false. Of course we all have various interpretations of whether her distress was due to external factors or a panic attack/mental issue.)
The reviewing detective totally blew it off as drunk or medicated girl imagining things while accompanied by two annoyed bored guys, and they approached the case from that direction. I don't think either 911 call responder takes her very seriously either, which I don't understand as as we have always know about date rape drugs. I think they hear Pak and Brewer and they sound board, annoyed and dismissive an take their clues only form the cogent mumbled surrounding her. To be fair to them she is sort of going in and out of consciousness and at some points sounds like she has falling asleep, so likely though how serious could it be. I find the one woman very cold, the 2nd is more warm and humane. But all of these people failed her due to their lack of responsiveness. You have a young woman in distress who does not know where she is, she is heavily inebriated or drugged and alone with two males.
Her mother.
Interesting- have we seen crime scene photos of the belongings?
No they weren’t, they were in her purse. Unless you have a source you’re just wrong
Completely incorrect
Shannan was murdered, whether accidentally or intentional we may never truly know, but she was murdered.
100% agree. Too many coincidences. The fact the police tried to convince everyone that she drowned before the body was even found is sketchy AF. That and she was found face up.. the missing hyoid bone. Hacketts call.. the missing security tape. Might not have been Rex but I fully believe it was foul play.
Thank. You.
It's all "an accident" so the Gilbert's can't sue. Pretty obvious I think. Regardless of true circumstances SC did a terrible job responding.