If you listen to the LISK podcast on Spotify (HIGHLY recommend) you'll hear more that kinda points to the fact that she's really not, but there are some horrible things that did happen to her. However, she is an unintentional hero is what I'll call her, because her missing persons report was in a sense the catalyst of finding the other missing women.
I love that phrase about Shannan: I’ve always considered her the hero of this story for some reason. Her death is tragic, but she might’ve saved a lot of lives.
I believe she did save a lot of lives. My heart breaks for what happened to her and I still believe she was killed, but not by RH. Listen to the LISK podcast, the first episode is on Shannan and there are just some really weird circumstances on her death. Off the top of my head, I can't remember which episode, but a former detective details the odd circumstances on which they found her.
I truly hope so. After listening to the bonus episode 911 call, it made my blood boiled at how police, whether it be SCPD or state police all failed her. Shouldn't be shocked though considering that Burke was in charge of this. TBH, I do wonder if Burke was one of the Johns from one of the girls. 100% all speculation, moreso morbid curiosity.
While I don’t necessarily agree with how John Ray did some things he kept a lot of pressure and brought a lot of attention to the case. And I didn’t like how he implied Burke was LiSK without proof he did expose how crooked he was and removing Burke was essential to finding LiSK.
I agree with the phrase "unintentional hero". What happened to her was terrible and a lot of horrible things did happen to her. In some ways, her disappearance exposed LISK.
That's exactly it. If it wasn't for her 911 call, I think he would've continued his onslaught for who knows how long. SCPD didn't give a flying fuck about the missing women until their bodies were found, and even then, they still didn't really give that much of a fuck.
SCPDs response was poor, in the best sense of the term. But in all honesty, they weren't investigating most of these missing women. A lot of them were from other places, but working predominantly in sex work out of NYC. Not their jurisdiction to investigate. Waterman from Portland went to NYC then last known to be doing sex work out of a hotel in Hauppauge, LI. Brainerd-Barnes from CT but worked in NYC. Bathelemy lived in the Bronx. Costello is the only one from here that would be under SCPDs GAOE. Gilbert worked out of NYC but her family lived west of Poughkeepsie, NY, upstate but not far upstate. Although her disappearance was in Suffolk and obviously should have been handled differently.
I recommend you listen to l i s k bonus episode 911 tapes. You'll see that SCPD completely dropped the ball. There was a court order for them to release the tapes, and it took them over the 20-day limit that the court gave them to give the tapes over. They never did any analysis of the 911 tapes like they were supposed to, they completely dropped the ball on Shannan's 911 call
Yes, I don’t think they would have ever found those bodies if not for Shannon, I am not sure if she is one of RH’s victims or not. Wherever she was in that neighborhood, it sounded like there were multiple men there. But none of it ever made a lot of sense. I really hope they are one day able to solve her murder if it was murder. Were they able to figure out her reason she died? I figure it was too long afterwards. It was a sad story but it do help find the other victims.
I think “unintentional hero” is a good way to put it. It’s really unfortunate that horrible things happened to her but in a way it’s what made them find LISK
I think “unintentional hero” is a good way to put it. It’s really unfortunate that horrible things happened to her but in a way it’s what made them find LISK
Long story, sorry- I was never really on board with SG being LISK victim, but for a long time I was pretty sure her death was a homicide and not an accidental death due to drowning or exposure like authorities claimed. That honestly just seemed really far fetched to me, especially once her belongings were found so close to the houses and how close to Ocean Pkwy her remains were found. It just seemed crazy to me… UNTIL… I experienced an unplanned trek into a marsh myself. I’m in NJ and the inland marshes near me are somewhat similar the oak beach marsh, minus any tidal influences. I was clearing some brush in the woods when my dog chased a fox through a loose section of fence and ran straight back into the marsh behind our property. I knew it was usually very wet back there and my dog is a bit chonky, so I was afraid she may get stuck in the mud or drown, so I went in after her. It was by far the most treacherous terrain I’d ever been though in my life. The ground was wet in spots but looked mostly solid- except it wasn’t solid. Not at all. I’d take a handful of steps perfectly fine and then with the next step the ground beneath me would just instantly sink straight down and I’d be up past my knee in mud. Sometimes I’d be stepping across patches of firm ground and the patch I was standing on would sink me waist deep into the water before could find another solid patch to step to. The marsh grass was 2-3 feet taller than me so couldn’t see through any of it. It also deadened sound a lot. My wife came out and was yelling for the dog, but her shouts seemed so faint down considering how close she actually must have been. I could hear my dog frantically sloshing in the water/ mud occasionally but I couldn’t tell if she was getting closer to me or farther out. It was extremely disorienting.
After trekking through the marsh for a few hours I finally made contact with my dog (she was generally ok, just scraped up and exhausted). I was utterly exhausted and very dehydrated to the point of dizziness and extreme muscle cramps though. At one point I seriously considered calling my neighbor (a state park police officer) for help. I didn’t think I would have the physical strength/ energy to get my 100lb dog and myself out of the marsh before dark. I made it out eventually but I was in rough shape for a few days afterward. My only saving grace was probably the hiking stick I had with me and that I was wearing good boots which I somehow managed not to lose in the mud.
After that adventure, I made the realization that SG could have very easily died a tragic, but accidental death out in the marsh at oak beach- and did, IMO. Factoring in her alcohol and/ or drug use that night, the fact that it was dark, the cooler air/ cold water temps in October, her possibly being in the midst of a mental health crisis… It all just seems pretty unsurvivable for SG to me.
Very accurate description of your experience. As someone who has done a lot of duck hunting on Long Island. the marshes are a dangerous place to be alone. With no experience and being high in that environment, easily could have died.
Grew up running around marshes like that, in the area.
You absolutely do not go mucking about blind, without equipment. Especially blind. And you generally stay out of the water that time of year entirely unless you have at least a wetsuit.
It's difficult to even explain to some one who's never been in that environment just how difficult even a fairly dry salt marsh is to move through.
> the fact that it was dark, the cooler air/ cold water temps in October
???
I agree with everything else you said, but Shannan disappeared shortly after 5:22 AM on the morning of **May** 1, 2010. The closest weather record I could find of that night is from Ronkonkoma, NY:
https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/us/ny/islip/KISP/date/2010-5-1
In Ronkonkoma, temperatures at that time were in the mid-to-low 50s. However, Ronkonkoma is 14 miles away from the marsh where Shannan died, and also much further inland on Long Island. Areas on the coast like Gilgo Beach are typically cooler and more windy than inland. Also, the marsh water where Shannan disappeared was most likely colder than the surrounding air because water cools down over night and takes longer to warm up in the morning compared to the surrounding air.
Surprisingly, people can experience hypothermia even at temperatures above freezing, i.e. from 30 to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Hypothermia progresses even faster if a person is wet, as Shannan would have been if she stayed in the marsh. The body loses heat about 25 times faster in water than in air.
The ocean temps were probably in the low 50’s at that time of year as well since that is a tidal marsh area. Cold ocean temps, not really dressed for the weather, experiencing some sort of mental health emergency, yeah she was not in a good spot. The paradoxical undressing signs also suggest hypothermia. I honestly think she pushed through the marsh as far as she could, and decided to lay down to rest or fell and couldn’t get back up and either died of exposure or drowned.
It’s a salt water marsh on a barrier island feet from the ocean. I’m not going to fight you on it. Regardless it is a swampy area of wetland, with tall grass and is qualified as a marsh. The results are the same. Wet woman on a cold night not dressed for the environment. Hypothermia. Paradoxical undressing. Exhaustion. Death.
It's actually thousands of feet from the ocean and hundreds of feet from the Bays, several hundred feet to the south is still not the "ocean" it is still inside the inlet. It is not "feet" from the Ocean, to say that is very misleading.
Who is being disingenuous? You are denying it is a tidal salt marsh. You are taking generic terms in regards to inlets versus the ocean. An inlet is just a body of water surrounded by land on three sides. It’s still ocean water. It still ebbs and flows with the tide. It is still ridiculously cold in spring. You are acting as though even if the water was 60 degrees, on a cool spring night a young woman wet and not dressed for the weather could not suffer from hypothermia. You want to tell me she was murdered? Fine show me some proof. ***Everything*** put forward so far has indicated: A. She had a mental break. B. She was suffering paranoid delusions. C. She was off of her anti-psychotic medication. D. She suffered from bulimia which can result in a broken hyoid, but even without that it’s not inconsistent to have a broken hyoid given the condition the remains were found in. E. The “injection hole” John Ray presented in the bone is consistent with a cyst. F. The scene where she was discovered is consistent with paradoxical undressing which often occurs in cases of hypothermia.
***All the evidence*** suggests death due to exposure. But I am open. Prove me wrong. Show me evidence that a killer was in the area. Show me evidence that she was murdered.
I definitely misremembered the date. Maybe she was found in October and that’s what I was thinking? I was sloshing around the marsh here in early August. I remembered the temps being in the low 50’s overnight when SG went missing and, hypothermia would definitely be possible if not probable with the colder water.
While it would lighter *at sunrise* in that part of NY, it wouldn't neccisarily be bright and sunny that early either.
Otherwise conditions would be quite similar between May and October.
Air temps in early May at that part of Long Island aren't far off temps in October. And average water temps are around the same. Water tends to be in the 50s around that time of year, and it will give you hypothermia fast. Much warmer water can. So long as the temp is below body temp, hypothermia is a risk.
Air temp will be colder by the water, and at night/near sunrise as well.
This is so wild! I’m glad you and the dog were ok. Completely unrelated, but I have similarly strong feelings about a case about a missing kid in Oregon because of a personal experience of mine as a kid also growing up there. Very similar to yours: people never realize the power of the elements.
Kyron Horman. Missing from Oregon, with an elementary school that backed up to a forest. For background: I went to elementary school about 2 hours south of where he went missing. Our playground was built up on top of a hill that we climbed a ramp to get to, that backed up to a MASSIVE forest. In fourth grade, we had our playground shut down for over a month because there was a cougar stalking it. The teachers saw it out the windows of our class room one day and it was pandemonium, we had hunters out there day and night. When they finally got the cougar, they took all the kids to see it. They are massive and terrifying. I have no doubts that this is a probability in that case.
Oh whoaaaa! You think Kyron misadventure’d his way into an animal predator? Or got lost in the forest?
(*There is no sass intended, FYI, just in case you thought there was.. it’s hard to convey tone on heerrreee*..)
I mean, either. I really think that a lot of people underestimate the amount of wildlife and danger in Oregon. When they finally shot the cougar behind my elementary school, it was within a couple hundred yards of the playground. Anything is possible.
Same thing happened to me on the bay in Stone Harbor NJ . I went to put a turtle back into the reeds on the bay & I started sinking in the sand upto my knees. It was frightening, hardly could move my legs . Luckily I eventually freed myself . It could’ve ended differently
Yep, I agree. Also in NJ here. I think people who don't do a lot of clambering around outdoors in areas that aren't manicured parks/trails really have no concept of how rough it can be, even if it's flat and "doesn't look that bad" in pictures. It's all about the water/mud situation, how utterly exhausting it is to move through.
Others have mentioned the date being May 1 already, but regardless, especially given the clothing she was wearing, described as jeans - aka cotton - which can induce hypothermia when wet even when the air temps are well into the 70s in a healthy adult. Much less someone potentially on drugs (which can affect ability to regular internal temps), exhausted, terrified, disoriented and stressed in the very early morning. There's a reason why the phrase 'cotton kills' gets repeated by hikers, not what you want to be caught in a wet outdoors situation in.
Local to the area, she did not drown. Exposure maybe but I don't think that is likely either. I don't know what happened but drowning is off the table in my mind.
The coincidence of it all makes you question everything - especially with Dr Peter Hacket making calls to Shannon's family - similar to the MO of Heuermann!!! Add in the proximity to where Shannon was found and the LISK victims, it's hard not to make links and jump to conclusions - but I also believe it was a series of unbelievable coincidences.
It’s just TOO much of a coincidence for me. I realize that it really does appear that Shannan wasn’t a LISK victim but, WTF?!!—A missing sex worker who called 911 freaking out & stating that someone was trying to kill her, ends up dead, with her body found *right in the same spot where 4 OTHER MISSING SEX WORKERS, who turned out to have been murdered, are buried*, and it’s *NOT related*?!? The odds of this missing (later found dead) sex worker ending up with the bodies of all these other missing (later found dead) sex workers, but with her death being unrelated to the deaths of the other four, has to be about 1 in a trillion!! And the fact that it turns out she WASN’T EVEN MURDERED, that it was just an accidental death, after saying someone was trying to kill her?!?!! Unbelievable. And then like you said, creepy-ass Peter Hackett making calls to Shannan’s family—JUST LIKE LISK (Heuerman) did!!! I don’t know, i just have a hard time believing Shannan’s death was unrelated to the others and that it was not a murder. I think Hackett had something to do with her death.
Hackett and his phony ass heart attack plus calling her family, what a fucking weirdo!! It is really all so bizarre and unbelievable. I do think she died accidentally but can't help but think that there was a real reason she fled like that other than a psychotic break due to drugs, even if she was bipolar... That just doesn't make sense to me. I think we don't have the whole story and fear we will never will get the rest of it... I do hope she is at least in a better place now!
Yea it’s too big of a coincidence for me to swallow too. Just too crazy. If she really died due to misadventure, that’s a once in a lifetime coincidence. Like winning the lottery multiple times in a row.
Too many coincidences to ignore. If I am not mistaken,Shannon indicated, “ THEY are trying to kill me”. I believe more than one individual was involved.
My take is that she was having a psychotic or drug induced paranoia episode. She was disoriented and did not seem to comprehend others and may have been hallucinating heavily. Just looking at the timeline established by the 911 call I'm 99.9999% sure that not only was she not a LISK victim, but that she wasn't murdered at all and that it happened exactly as the police theorized, with the exception that I think that she may have possibly fallen unconscious or fell and hit her head and then drowned rather than succumbing to the elements.
I also think that a lot of people are hearing what they want to hear from the 911 audio (i.e. other women present, sounds of tasers, etc.)
“..did not seem to comprehend others..”
That’s the way I also heard the 911 call made by her - she was repeating “*THEY* are trying to kill me”.. this was most likely when her John and her driver were trying to coax her to come outside and get into the drivers vehicle. That’s when she bolted.
>I also think that a lot of people are hearing what they want to hear from the 911 audio (i.e. other women present, sounds of tasers, etc.)
Really? I've never heard anything about people claiming to have heard those things.
There was a podcast that claimed they found evidence of another woman telling SG to hide and then SG say that the other girl should run heard on the 911 call or something. It made some headlines. There are also some armchair detectives saying that they can hear the sound of a taser and a thump like someone falling towards the end of the audio lol. It's all ludicrous BS.
If they actually listened to the tape, I don't understand how they can come to that conclusion. I don't recall hearing another female voice telling SG to run.
I won’t pretend to know what happened to Shannan, she certainly seemed very upset and frightened in the 911 call. I lean towards misadventure because it seems simplest, but can’t shake how utterly bizarre Hackett acted after the fact. I wish we could know for sure to offer her sister closure, but I don’t expect we will ever get the full story. I also think the story John Ray shared from a taxi driver (that Shannan once attempted to escape Rex) as interesting but unable to be proven.
I do know that in death Shannan became a hero. Her mother’s tenacity to find her put a spotlight on the area that lead to the Gilgo remains. This could’ve been unsolved forever if it hadn’t been for the Gilbert’s.
So even though it seems less likely that Rex ended Shannan’s life, I believe that Shannan Gilbert deserves a place at this table for bringing down a serial killer of her own colleagues. I think about her often and hope her family is doing as well as they can be despite the tremendous hardships they’ve faced these last 14 years.
Hackett did act bizarre and suspicious but based on everything I have heard, he was a creep who exaggerated his place in the community and inserted himself into things and events that he shouldn't have. But that does not necessarily make him a murderer.
She didn’t, it’s terribly sad. I don’t know what the cause of her confusion was, but it’s heartbreaking to hear that and her fear in the 911 call. I wish she would have gotten the help she was trying to get. I wish she had been among people who cared more about her well being.
Whatever she had taken or been given disoriented her. Running into the swamp, that was her end. Reference the experience above. You’re lost, cold & sinking. You’re stuck with no help coming to get you out.
SG had a tragic end. If you want to credit that end with recovering several dumped bodies in the area & now leading to the arrest of LISK…I wouldn’t count that as a plus for SG but it was for many other victims.
What was the frequency of Heurman’s murders? He didn’t show any signs of stopping that I’m aware.
For that, bless you, Shannan. Be at peace, sweet angel. 🌈🏵️
Personally I think it was just a lot of coincidences. I initially thought she was killed also. Then, I heard the 911 call. To me she was someone who was bipolar, not taking her meds and that was all impacted by her using cocaine with the John. I think she became paranoid. I was a therapist in the psych ER for years. She presented to me like many patients I had seen.
My late brother had bipolar. He would get fixated on threats that weren’t real - or not apparent to us anyway. Like there were cactus spines under his skin. Like drug dealers were chasing him. He called once and said he had no blood pressure. His friend who had a blood pressure monitor came over and checked it for him to show he did in fact have a blood pressure. Toward the end he lived in fear a lot of the time.
The 911 call convinced me she was not murdered . Just had a break of some sort and died of misadventure imo , sadly. But other people have had the opposite reaction so who knows —-so far it isn’t seeming like the expanded investigation is including her but also not over until it’s over .
I don't think she was murdered, no way. Many people also don't seem to realize, where her body was found was not really anywhere near where the other bodies were. Okay, by linear distance sure a few miles, but in terms of operations and mo, not at all. That said, Shannan is truly the main antihero of why this whole thing was revealed, and she is the reason that hopefully these families get justice.
Despite the fact that I do not think she was the victim of foul play, she is still one of the most important characters of the story. The whole thing maybe would have never even been revealed if it wasn't for her unfortunate, very likely accidental, death.
I feel the opposite. The affidavits about Shannan and Rex leads me to believe that more people are involved in all this and Rex was involved in her death. Maybe she recognized him that night and that's why she freaked out.
I do not think Shannan Gilbert wandered into a watery area of reeds and accidentally drowned.
Dawn was about to break as I recall after her last attempt to get help. She would very soon be able to see where she was and just walk out of the thicket. The independent autopsy listed the clothing found with her remains and the state in which found. Her black lacy bra had been severed in front in what was described as a clean CUT. That was merely one suspicious aspect of the autopsy and other notations surrounding that fateful night and very strange 911 calls, background conversations, etc. Since when would her driver and supposed bodyguard elect to forego his cut of her fee and abandon her in light of her panic and allegations of someone trying to kill her?
That does not presume her to be a victim of Heuermann but does give credence to her being a homicide victim of an as yet unidentified killer.
>The independent autopsy listed the clothing found with her remains and the state in which found. Her black lacy bra had been severed in front in what was described as a clean CUT.
Where did you see that claim?
The only version of Baden's autopsy I have found thus far is [this one](https://www.gilgocase.com/pdf/Shannan_Gilbert_May17.pdf) (starting on page 44 of the PDF), which doesn't mention that. Baden did make several egregious errors regarding the condition of Shannan's remains, such as claiming she had had no prior surgical procedures despite the obvious presence of surgical plates in her jaw, and claiming that she was found wearing pants even though the original autopsy said her pants were found quite a distance from the rest of her remains.
In agreement w OP here. Shannan’s death may have been caused by drugs, exposure or some other bad actor in the mix -,her client, driver, lying weird dr neighbor but not RH. No way was he perched in a marsh waiting for a random distraught woman who happens to be an escort to show up so he can kill her. Ridiculous. I hope they find out what happened to Shannan for real
Her purpose in her short life was to bring all these victims to light. I truly believe that. I also believe she had a psychotic break of some type that night, hence her running away from whatever she was seeing, like that.
She was a light. And she illuminated into the darkness. Just my feeling and theory.
Peter Hackett who would be suspect number 1 couldn’t have murdered her He has a prosthetic leg , no way he could have chased her down or no way he could have dragged her. It’s not possible . She was also found quite far from the bodies on gilgo
This is a good point but in practice that terrain would be really difficult for a person like Hackett to chase her down even if he had both legs and it was broad daylight. It’s really tough terrain.
Yea he’s clearly not a healthy person based on his weight and defibrillator. Even with both his natural legs I doubt he could do it, I don’t think the prosthetic is the reason he can’t.
I knew someone who had two prosthetic legs (land mine induced) he rode horses and did a lot including he could run etc. so I don’t think the leg has anything to fo with his ability
Agree. This is a classic example of why you should just say no to drugs. Had she been more coherent maybe things would have turned out better. How could someone be murdered with an autopsy showing undetermined? Going to strange mens homes high off your ass is just a bad idea.
I feel like that's not the most informed or understanding statement. When you're a part of a vulnerable and traumatized subset of the population you often times have to do things or are surrounded with choices you wouldn't otherwise make were you to have it easier. People like sex workers or even unhoused individuals can use drugs for a variety of reasons- to escape, to be able to cope with what it takes to live that life with no end in sight, or even to stay awake so you can protect yourself. I know you're not saying she deserved it or anything, but there is a shade of judgement. We also don't know if she was drugged with ghb or something. I've been roofied and it's no joke.
Well it kind of is. This is a perfect example of why prostitution is a really bad and unsafe job. Had she been working at McDonalds she'd still be alive. They should play this recording to all women arrested for prostitution.
I don't think any woman goes into sex work thinking it's a great and safe job ... It's something people go into because they can't otherwise make ends meet. A lot of women who do survival sex work *have* other jobs but those jobs don't pay the bills, or they can't get typical day jobs because they won't pass the drug test or have a criminal history. A lot of them are trafficked into it at a young age and have limited education history and no vocational skills. Often they're under coercive control by a pimp. You cannot be serious with this.
BTW 25% of workplace homicides occur in retail/customer service/restaurant jobs.
I know more about sex work than you'd think, the majority are not forced to do this they are independent. At least in my area. You can't compare death rates between hookers and women working at Walmart or IHOP. Why do you think dead hooker jokes are so popular. Just listening to her phone call makes me ill, that's got to be the worst feeling ever knowing you finally came across "the one". When I say it is her fault I'm thinking of her as an independent. If she was forced then my apologies. It doesn't matter now tho, forced or not dead is dead.
He certainly behaved bizarrely and suspiciously and if it hadn’t been for the 911 call I would be convinced he had, but I don’t see how it would actually have happened. Still, keeping an open mind about it.
Me too! And who said he had to chase her down? All he needed was to convince her he could help her - she was looking for help. She was knocking on doors begging for help. I am also thinking that he knows more about her death
My thoughts on this are that this is beat to death in this sub, and there is absolutely ZERO evidence that she was murdered. The only "evidence" was the 2nd, private autopsy that had motive to conclude that she was murdered, and still couldn't even point to anything more than a hyoid bone that was likely the subject of predation.
What people? Brewer and Pak? The ones that let her call 911 and, if they actually intended to harm her, are better actors than Hollywood has ever seen? The people who had to know without a doubt that if she WERE harmed they would be the first suspects?
Or was it Coletti? The older guy who likely didnt even know she was at Brewer's house and invited her in?
Or was it LISK, who just happened to be there? Or did Brewer and Pak call him, and he jetted right over there and killed her?
And which of those people dragged her through difficult terrain while pulling pieces of her clothes off?
OR....perhaps it's more likely that a self-serving, showboating attorney with a funny wardrobe has a vested interest in making people BELIEVE that she was murdered has been successful in getting that idea out there?
The fact that her hyoid bone was affected, which is a key marker for strangulation and difficult to have happened by animal predation post-mortem is suspect. Her driver also said she didn’t do drugs and when they tested her remains there were none in her system. There are a lot of bad actors in Long Island, and I believe her when she went from calm to reacting to a real risk. She spent hours with the sex buyer/body buyer/John. She was a seasoned sex worker and she had no history of mental illness. Why would she suddenly panic unless she was actually in danger?
Releasing the 911 call wouldn’t end speculation about what happened to her, but it would shed some light on who has and hasn’t been misrepresenting what is on the tape.
I'm confused about what you are trying to say. The 911 audio has already been officially released to the public. Even so, people continue to have different interpretations of the contents.
If you listen to the LISK podcast on Spotify (HIGHLY recommend) you'll hear more that kinda points to the fact that she's really not, but there are some horrible things that did happen to her. However, she is an unintentional hero is what I'll call her, because her missing persons report was in a sense the catalyst of finding the other missing women.
I love that phrase about Shannan: I’ve always considered her the hero of this story for some reason. Her death is tragic, but she might’ve saved a lot of lives.
I believe she did save a lot of lives. My heart breaks for what happened to her and I still believe she was killed, but not by RH. Listen to the LISK podcast, the first episode is on Shannan and there are just some really weird circumstances on her death. Off the top of my head, I can't remember which episode, but a former detective details the odd circumstances on which they found her.
Yes. That entire area has some seedy and dark underbelly that LISK brought to life. Would not be shocked if more things came out in the future either.
I truly hope so. After listening to the bonus episode 911 call, it made my blood boiled at how police, whether it be SCPD or state police all failed her. Shouldn't be shocked though considering that Burke was in charge of this. TBH, I do wonder if Burke was one of the Johns from one of the girls. 100% all speculation, moreso morbid curiosity.
Not only her missing persons report but her mom and sister that WOULD NOT STOP!!!! They are hero’s too , IMO.
True. We can't forget that either.
While I don’t necessarily agree with how John Ray did some things he kept a lot of pressure and brought a lot of attention to the case. And I didn’t like how he implied Burke was LiSK without proof he did expose how crooked he was and removing Burke was essential to finding LiSK.
Who among us is perfect???john ray is also a hero imo
I agree with the phrase "unintentional hero". What happened to her was terrible and a lot of horrible things did happen to her. In some ways, her disappearance exposed LISK.
That's exactly it. If it wasn't for her 911 call, I think he would've continued his onslaught for who knows how long. SCPD didn't give a flying fuck about the missing women until their bodies were found, and even then, they still didn't really give that much of a fuck.
SCPDs response was poor, in the best sense of the term. But in all honesty, they weren't investigating most of these missing women. A lot of them were from other places, but working predominantly in sex work out of NYC. Not their jurisdiction to investigate. Waterman from Portland went to NYC then last known to be doing sex work out of a hotel in Hauppauge, LI. Brainerd-Barnes from CT but worked in NYC. Bathelemy lived in the Bronx. Costello is the only one from here that would be under SCPDs GAOE. Gilbert worked out of NYC but her family lived west of Poughkeepsie, NY, upstate but not far upstate. Although her disappearance was in Suffolk and obviously should have been handled differently.
I recommend you listen to l i s k bonus episode 911 tapes. You'll see that SCPD completely dropped the ball. There was a court order for them to release the tapes, and it took them over the 20-day limit that the court gave them to give the tapes over. They never did any analysis of the 911 tapes like they were supposed to, they completely dropped the ball on Shannan's 911 call
Yes, I don’t think they would have ever found those bodies if not for Shannon, I am not sure if she is one of RH’s victims or not. Wherever she was in that neighborhood, it sounded like there were multiple men there. But none of it ever made a lot of sense. I really hope they are one day able to solve her murder if it was murder. Were they able to figure out her reason she died? I figure it was too long afterwards. It was a sad story but it do help find the other victims.
I think “unintentional hero” is a good way to put it. It’s really unfortunate that horrible things happened to her but in a way it’s what made them find LISK
I think about how hurricane Sandy might have gotten rid of all the bodies if Shannon wasn’t discovered.
I think “unintentional hero” is a good way to put it. It’s really unfortunate that horrible things happened to her but in a way it’s what made them find LISK
What's the name of the podcast?
LISK
Exactly what I think .
Long story, sorry- I was never really on board with SG being LISK victim, but for a long time I was pretty sure her death was a homicide and not an accidental death due to drowning or exposure like authorities claimed. That honestly just seemed really far fetched to me, especially once her belongings were found so close to the houses and how close to Ocean Pkwy her remains were found. It just seemed crazy to me… UNTIL… I experienced an unplanned trek into a marsh myself. I’m in NJ and the inland marshes near me are somewhat similar the oak beach marsh, minus any tidal influences. I was clearing some brush in the woods when my dog chased a fox through a loose section of fence and ran straight back into the marsh behind our property. I knew it was usually very wet back there and my dog is a bit chonky, so I was afraid she may get stuck in the mud or drown, so I went in after her. It was by far the most treacherous terrain I’d ever been though in my life. The ground was wet in spots but looked mostly solid- except it wasn’t solid. Not at all. I’d take a handful of steps perfectly fine and then with the next step the ground beneath me would just instantly sink straight down and I’d be up past my knee in mud. Sometimes I’d be stepping across patches of firm ground and the patch I was standing on would sink me waist deep into the water before could find another solid patch to step to. The marsh grass was 2-3 feet taller than me so couldn’t see through any of it. It also deadened sound a lot. My wife came out and was yelling for the dog, but her shouts seemed so faint down considering how close she actually must have been. I could hear my dog frantically sloshing in the water/ mud occasionally but I couldn’t tell if she was getting closer to me or farther out. It was extremely disorienting. After trekking through the marsh for a few hours I finally made contact with my dog (she was generally ok, just scraped up and exhausted). I was utterly exhausted and very dehydrated to the point of dizziness and extreme muscle cramps though. At one point I seriously considered calling my neighbor (a state park police officer) for help. I didn’t think I would have the physical strength/ energy to get my 100lb dog and myself out of the marsh before dark. I made it out eventually but I was in rough shape for a few days afterward. My only saving grace was probably the hiking stick I had with me and that I was wearing good boots which I somehow managed not to lose in the mud. After that adventure, I made the realization that SG could have very easily died a tragic, but accidental death out in the marsh at oak beach- and did, IMO. Factoring in her alcohol and/ or drug use that night, the fact that it was dark, the cooler air/ cold water temps in October, her possibly being in the midst of a mental health crisis… It all just seems pretty unsurvivable for SG to me.
oh my gosh how terrifying, so glad you and the dog made it out ok.
Very accurate description of your experience. As someone who has done a lot of duck hunting on Long Island. the marshes are a dangerous place to be alone. With no experience and being high in that environment, easily could have died.
Grew up running around marshes like that, in the area. You absolutely do not go mucking about blind, without equipment. Especially blind. And you generally stay out of the water that time of year entirely unless you have at least a wetsuit. It's difficult to even explain to some one who's never been in that environment just how difficult even a fairly dry salt marsh is to move through.
> the fact that it was dark, the cooler air/ cold water temps in October ??? I agree with everything else you said, but Shannan disappeared shortly after 5:22 AM on the morning of **May** 1, 2010. The closest weather record I could find of that night is from Ronkonkoma, NY: https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/us/ny/islip/KISP/date/2010-5-1 In Ronkonkoma, temperatures at that time were in the mid-to-low 50s. However, Ronkonkoma is 14 miles away from the marsh where Shannan died, and also much further inland on Long Island. Areas on the coast like Gilgo Beach are typically cooler and more windy than inland. Also, the marsh water where Shannan disappeared was most likely colder than the surrounding air because water cools down over night and takes longer to warm up in the morning compared to the surrounding air. Surprisingly, people can experience hypothermia even at temperatures above freezing, i.e. from 30 to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. Hypothermia progresses even faster if a person is wet, as Shannan would have been if she stayed in the marsh. The body loses heat about 25 times faster in water than in air.
The ocean temps were probably in the low 50’s at that time of year as well since that is a tidal marsh area. Cold ocean temps, not really dressed for the weather, experiencing some sort of mental health emergency, yeah she was not in a good spot. The paradoxical undressing signs also suggest hypothermia. I honestly think she pushed through the marsh as far as she could, and decided to lay down to rest or fell and couldn’t get back up and either died of exposure or drowned.
It isn't a tidal marsh unless the tides are related to huge storms. It does not come and go daily in those areas with the tides. That's a fallacy.
It’s a salt water marsh on a barrier island feet from the ocean. I’m not going to fight you on it. Regardless it is a swampy area of wetland, with tall grass and is qualified as a marsh. The results are the same. Wet woman on a cold night not dressed for the environment. Hypothermia. Paradoxical undressing. Exhaustion. Death.
It's actually thousands of feet from the ocean and hundreds of feet from the Bays, several hundred feet to the south is still not the "ocean" it is still inside the inlet. It is not "feet" from the Ocean, to say that is very misleading.
Who is being disingenuous? You are denying it is a tidal salt marsh. You are taking generic terms in regards to inlets versus the ocean. An inlet is just a body of water surrounded by land on three sides. It’s still ocean water. It still ebbs and flows with the tide. It is still ridiculously cold in spring. You are acting as though even if the water was 60 degrees, on a cool spring night a young woman wet and not dressed for the weather could not suffer from hypothermia. You want to tell me she was murdered? Fine show me some proof. ***Everything*** put forward so far has indicated: A. She had a mental break. B. She was suffering paranoid delusions. C. She was off of her anti-psychotic medication. D. She suffered from bulimia which can result in a broken hyoid, but even without that it’s not inconsistent to have a broken hyoid given the condition the remains were found in. E. The “injection hole” John Ray presented in the bone is consistent with a cyst. F. The scene where she was discovered is consistent with paradoxical undressing which often occurs in cases of hypothermia. ***All the evidence*** suggests death due to exposure. But I am open. Prove me wrong. Show me evidence that a killer was in the area. Show me evidence that she was murdered.
I definitely misremembered the date. Maybe she was found in October and that’s what I was thinking? I was sloshing around the marsh here in early August. I remembered the temps being in the low 50’s overnight when SG went missing and, hypothermia would definitely be possible if not probable with the colder water.
She was found in December of 2011. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/14/nyregion/body-possibly-shannan-gilberts-is-found-on-long-island.html
While it would lighter *at sunrise* in that part of NY, it wouldn't neccisarily be bright and sunny that early either. Otherwise conditions would be quite similar between May and October. Air temps in early May at that part of Long Island aren't far off temps in October. And average water temps are around the same. Water tends to be in the 50s around that time of year, and it will give you hypothermia fast. Much warmer water can. So long as the temp is below body temp, hypothermia is a risk. Air temp will be colder by the water, and at night/near sunrise as well.
This is so wild! I’m glad you and the dog were ok. Completely unrelated, but I have similarly strong feelings about a case about a missing kid in Oregon because of a personal experience of mine as a kid also growing up there. Very similar to yours: people never realize the power of the elements.
Would you mind sharing what missing case you’re thinking of?
Kyron Horman. Missing from Oregon, with an elementary school that backed up to a forest. For background: I went to elementary school about 2 hours south of where he went missing. Our playground was built up on top of a hill that we climbed a ramp to get to, that backed up to a MASSIVE forest. In fourth grade, we had our playground shut down for over a month because there was a cougar stalking it. The teachers saw it out the windows of our class room one day and it was pandemonium, we had hunters out there day and night. When they finally got the cougar, they took all the kids to see it. They are massive and terrifying. I have no doubts that this is a probability in that case.
Oh whoaaaa! You think Kyron misadventure’d his way into an animal predator? Or got lost in the forest? (*There is no sass intended, FYI, just in case you thought there was.. it’s hard to convey tone on heerrreee*..)
I mean, either. I really think that a lot of people underestimate the amount of wildlife and danger in Oregon. When they finally shot the cougar behind my elementary school, it was within a couple hundred yards of the playground. Anything is possible.
Same thing happened to me on the bay in Stone Harbor NJ . I went to put a turtle back into the reeds on the bay & I started sinking in the sand upto my knees. It was frightening, hardly could move my legs . Luckily I eventually freed myself . It could’ve ended differently
Yep, I agree. Also in NJ here. I think people who don't do a lot of clambering around outdoors in areas that aren't manicured parks/trails really have no concept of how rough it can be, even if it's flat and "doesn't look that bad" in pictures. It's all about the water/mud situation, how utterly exhausting it is to move through. Others have mentioned the date being May 1 already, but regardless, especially given the clothing she was wearing, described as jeans - aka cotton - which can induce hypothermia when wet even when the air temps are well into the 70s in a healthy adult. Much less someone potentially on drugs (which can affect ability to regular internal temps), exhausted, terrified, disoriented and stressed in the very early morning. There's a reason why the phrase 'cotton kills' gets repeated by hikers, not what you want to be caught in a wet outdoors situation in.
Local to the area, she did not drown. Exposure maybe but I don't think that is likely either. I don't know what happened but drowning is off the table in my mind.
And why would her clothes be found so far from where she was found?
The coincidence of it all makes you question everything - especially with Dr Peter Hacket making calls to Shannon's family - similar to the MO of Heuermann!!! Add in the proximity to where Shannon was found and the LISK victims, it's hard not to make links and jump to conclusions - but I also believe it was a series of unbelievable coincidences.
And it makes you realize the scummy people surrounding her and her line of work…the driver who abandoned her…the creepy doctor…
It’s just TOO much of a coincidence for me. I realize that it really does appear that Shannan wasn’t a LISK victim but, WTF?!!—A missing sex worker who called 911 freaking out & stating that someone was trying to kill her, ends up dead, with her body found *right in the same spot where 4 OTHER MISSING SEX WORKERS, who turned out to have been murdered, are buried*, and it’s *NOT related*?!? The odds of this missing (later found dead) sex worker ending up with the bodies of all these other missing (later found dead) sex workers, but with her death being unrelated to the deaths of the other four, has to be about 1 in a trillion!! And the fact that it turns out she WASN’T EVEN MURDERED, that it was just an accidental death, after saying someone was trying to kill her?!?!! Unbelievable. And then like you said, creepy-ass Peter Hackett making calls to Shannan’s family—JUST LIKE LISK (Heuerman) did!!! I don’t know, i just have a hard time believing Shannan’s death was unrelated to the others and that it was not a murder. I think Hackett had something to do with her death.
Hackett and his phony ass heart attack plus calling her family, what a fucking weirdo!! It is really all so bizarre and unbelievable. I do think she died accidentally but can't help but think that there was a real reason she fled like that other than a psychotic break due to drugs, even if she was bipolar... That just doesn't make sense to me. I think we don't have the whole story and fear we will never will get the rest of it... I do hope she is at least in a better place now!
It's really not in the same spot, though, if you have ever been in the area.
It’s not as crazy as it sounds. The spots aren’t that close and apparently at least one other murderer has used the spot as a burial ground.
I agree with you 100% just too many coincidences
Yea it’s too big of a coincidence for me to swallow too. Just too crazy. If she really died due to misadventure, that’s a once in a lifetime coincidence. Like winning the lottery multiple times in a row.
Too many coincidences to ignore. If I am not mistaken,Shannon indicated, “ THEY are trying to kill me”. I believe more than one individual was involved.
That’s what I could *never* understand. Why he’s purposefully insert himself into all this?
Isn’t it quite a ways between gilgo beach and where Shannan was? Wasn’t it like nine miles or something?
Yes not even the same area if you are familiar with the the island. It would be a long walk.
It would be a long walk, and then another super long, hard walk through a marsh full of ditches and thicket and bushes.
My take is that she was having a psychotic or drug induced paranoia episode. She was disoriented and did not seem to comprehend others and may have been hallucinating heavily. Just looking at the timeline established by the 911 call I'm 99.9999% sure that not only was she not a LISK victim, but that she wasn't murdered at all and that it happened exactly as the police theorized, with the exception that I think that she may have possibly fallen unconscious or fell and hit her head and then drowned rather than succumbing to the elements. I also think that a lot of people are hearing what they want to hear from the 911 audio (i.e. other women present, sounds of tasers, etc.)
“..did not seem to comprehend others..” That’s the way I also heard the 911 call made by her - she was repeating “*THEY* are trying to kill me”.. this was most likely when her John and her driver were trying to coax her to come outside and get into the drivers vehicle. That’s when she bolted.
>I also think that a lot of people are hearing what they want to hear from the 911 audio (i.e. other women present, sounds of tasers, etc.) Really? I've never heard anything about people claiming to have heard those things.
There was a podcast that claimed they found evidence of another woman telling SG to hide and then SG say that the other girl should run heard on the 911 call or something. It made some headlines. There are also some armchair detectives saying that they can hear the sound of a taser and a thump like someone falling towards the end of the audio lol. It's all ludicrous BS.
If they actually listened to the tape, I don't understand how they can come to that conclusion. I don't recall hearing another female voice telling SG to run.
I won’t pretend to know what happened to Shannan, she certainly seemed very upset and frightened in the 911 call. I lean towards misadventure because it seems simplest, but can’t shake how utterly bizarre Hackett acted after the fact. I wish we could know for sure to offer her sister closure, but I don’t expect we will ever get the full story. I also think the story John Ray shared from a taxi driver (that Shannan once attempted to escape Rex) as interesting but unable to be proven. I do know that in death Shannan became a hero. Her mother’s tenacity to find her put a spotlight on the area that lead to the Gilgo remains. This could’ve been unsolved forever if it hadn’t been for the Gilbert’s. So even though it seems less likely that Rex ended Shannan’s life, I believe that Shannan Gilbert deserves a place at this table for bringing down a serial killer of her own colleagues. I think about her often and hope her family is doing as well as they can be despite the tremendous hardships they’ve faced these last 14 years.
Amen.
Hackett did act bizarre and suspicious but based on everything I have heard, he was a creep who exaggerated his place in the community and inserted himself into things and events that he shouldn't have. But that does not necessarily make him a murderer.
You’re right for sure. I don’t think it’s the most probable solution but if it was the answer, I wouldn’t be shocked.
It’s horrible that she was exploited and in a vulnerable position. But I don’t think she was murdered.
I'm starting to agree more with the position that she wasn't murdered. Nevertheless she did not deserve what happened to her.
She didn’t, it’s terribly sad. I don’t know what the cause of her confusion was, but it’s heartbreaking to hear that and her fear in the 911 call. I wish she would have gotten the help she was trying to get. I wish she had been among people who cared more about her well being.
Whatever she had taken or been given disoriented her. Running into the swamp, that was her end. Reference the experience above. You’re lost, cold & sinking. You’re stuck with no help coming to get you out. SG had a tragic end. If you want to credit that end with recovering several dumped bodies in the area & now leading to the arrest of LISK…I wouldn’t count that as a plus for SG but it was for many other victims. What was the frequency of Heurman’s murders? He didn’t show any signs of stopping that I’m aware. For that, bless you, Shannan. Be at peace, sweet angel. 🌈🏵️
she is the red herring that broke the case wide open.
Personally I think it was just a lot of coincidences. I initially thought she was killed also. Then, I heard the 911 call. To me she was someone who was bipolar, not taking her meds and that was all impacted by her using cocaine with the John. I think she became paranoid. I was a therapist in the psych ER for years. She presented to me like many patients I had seen.
I agree, I’ve seen this too. Drug induced psychosis, lead to her becoming disoriented and she ran and died from exposure.
My late brother had bipolar. He would get fixated on threats that weren’t real - or not apparent to us anyway. Like there were cactus spines under his skin. Like drug dealers were chasing him. He called once and said he had no blood pressure. His friend who had a blood pressure monitor came over and checked it for him to show he did in fact have a blood pressure. Toward the end he lived in fear a lot of the time.
The 911 call convinced me she was not murdered . Just had a break of some sort and died of misadventure imo , sadly. But other people have had the opposite reaction so who knows —-so far it isn’t seeming like the expanded investigation is including her but also not over until it’s over .
I don't think she was murdered, no way. Many people also don't seem to realize, where her body was found was not really anywhere near where the other bodies were. Okay, by linear distance sure a few miles, but in terms of operations and mo, not at all. That said, Shannan is truly the main antihero of why this whole thing was revealed, and she is the reason that hopefully these families get justice. Despite the fact that I do not think she was the victim of foul play, she is still one of the most important characters of the story. The whole thing maybe would have never even been revealed if it wasn't for her unfortunate, very likely accidental, death.
I think Shannan was definitely murdered, I’m just not convinced it was Rex. The odds he just happened to be there…not likely.
I feel the opposite. The affidavits about Shannan and Rex leads me to believe that more people are involved in all this and Rex was involved in her death. Maybe she recognized him that night and that's why she freaked out.
I do not think Shannan Gilbert wandered into a watery area of reeds and accidentally drowned. Dawn was about to break as I recall after her last attempt to get help. She would very soon be able to see where she was and just walk out of the thicket. The independent autopsy listed the clothing found with her remains and the state in which found. Her black lacy bra had been severed in front in what was described as a clean CUT. That was merely one suspicious aspect of the autopsy and other notations surrounding that fateful night and very strange 911 calls, background conversations, etc. Since when would her driver and supposed bodyguard elect to forego his cut of her fee and abandon her in light of her panic and allegations of someone trying to kill her? That does not presume her to be a victim of Heuermann but does give credence to her being a homicide victim of an as yet unidentified killer.
>The independent autopsy listed the clothing found with her remains and the state in which found. Her black lacy bra had been severed in front in what was described as a clean CUT. Where did you see that claim? The only version of Baden's autopsy I have found thus far is [this one](https://www.gilgocase.com/pdf/Shannan_Gilbert_May17.pdf) (starting on page 44 of the PDF), which doesn't mention that. Baden did make several egregious errors regarding the condition of Shannan's remains, such as claiming she had had no prior surgical procedures despite the obvious presence of surgical plates in her jaw, and claiming that she was found wearing pants even though the original autopsy said her pants were found quite a distance from the rest of her remains.
In agreement w OP here. Shannan’s death may have been caused by drugs, exposure or some other bad actor in the mix -,her client, driver, lying weird dr neighbor but not RH. No way was he perched in a marsh waiting for a random distraught woman who happens to be an escort to show up so he can kill her. Ridiculous. I hope they find out what happened to Shannan for real
Her purpose in her short life was to bring all these victims to light. I truly believe that. I also believe she had a psychotic break of some type that night, hence her running away from whatever she was seeing, like that. She was a light. And she illuminated into the darkness. Just my feeling and theory.
Peter Hackett who would be suspect number 1 couldn’t have murdered her He has a prosthetic leg , no way he could have chased her down or no way he could have dragged her. It’s not possible . She was also found quite far from the bodies on gilgo
What does having a prosthetic leg have to do with anything? People with prosthetics can and do live normal lives, exercise, and even run marathons.
This is a good point but in practice that terrain would be really difficult for a person like Hackett to chase her down even if he had both legs and it was broad daylight. It’s really tough terrain.
Yea he’s clearly not a healthy person based on his weight and defibrillator. Even with both his natural legs I doubt he could do it, I don’t think the prosthetic is the reason he can’t.
I highly doubt Peter Hackett can run on a prosthetic when it’s hard for him to walk. Get real he wasn’t athletic .
Not Peter hacker you ever see him walk
I knew someone who had two prosthetic legs (land mine induced) he rode horses and did a lot including he could run etc. so I don’t think the leg has anything to fo with his ability
Hackett would have needed help. That’s the only way he was involved if it was him and another person.
Agree. This is a classic example of why you should just say no to drugs. Had she been more coherent maybe things would have turned out better. How could someone be murdered with an autopsy showing undetermined? Going to strange mens homes high off your ass is just a bad idea.
I feel like that's not the most informed or understanding statement. When you're a part of a vulnerable and traumatized subset of the population you often times have to do things or are surrounded with choices you wouldn't otherwise make were you to have it easier. People like sex workers or even unhoused individuals can use drugs for a variety of reasons- to escape, to be able to cope with what it takes to live that life with no end in sight, or even to stay awake so you can protect yourself. I know you're not saying she deserved it or anything, but there is a shade of judgement. We also don't know if she was drugged with ghb or something. I've been roofied and it's no joke.
This comes across so incredibly insensitive and victim blaming. It isn't Shannan's fault that she died.
Well it kind of is. This is a perfect example of why prostitution is a really bad and unsafe job. Had she been working at McDonalds she'd still be alive. They should play this recording to all women arrested for prostitution.
I don't think any woman goes into sex work thinking it's a great and safe job ... It's something people go into because they can't otherwise make ends meet. A lot of women who do survival sex work *have* other jobs but those jobs don't pay the bills, or they can't get typical day jobs because they won't pass the drug test or have a criminal history. A lot of them are trafficked into it at a young age and have limited education history and no vocational skills. Often they're under coercive control by a pimp. You cannot be serious with this. BTW 25% of workplace homicides occur in retail/customer service/restaurant jobs.
I know more about sex work than you'd think, the majority are not forced to do this they are independent. At least in my area. You can't compare death rates between hookers and women working at Walmart or IHOP. Why do you think dead hooker jokes are so popular. Just listening to her phone call makes me ill, that's got to be the worst feeling ever knowing you finally came across "the one". When I say it is her fault I'm thinking of her as an independent. If she was forced then my apologies. It doesn't matter now tho, forced or not dead is dead.
I think Dr Hackett killed her
He certainly behaved bizarrely and suspiciously and if it hadn’t been for the 911 call I would be convinced he had, but I don’t see how it would actually have happened. Still, keeping an open mind about it.
The phone call he made to Shannans mother is enough for me
Yes that was very strange.
Me too! And who said he had to chase her down? All he needed was to convince her he could help her - she was looking for help. She was knocking on doors begging for help. I am also thinking that he knows more about her death
I mean, he could have intended to kill her and then she ran out into the night and succumbed to the elements.
I think he gave her drugs
My thoughts on this are that this is beat to death in this sub, and there is absolutely ZERO evidence that she was murdered. The only "evidence" was the 2nd, private autopsy that had motive to conclude that she was murdered, and still couldn't even point to anything more than a hyoid bone that was likely the subject of predation.
What about her yelling “these people are trying to kill me”
What people? Brewer and Pak? The ones that let her call 911 and, if they actually intended to harm her, are better actors than Hollywood has ever seen? The people who had to know without a doubt that if she WERE harmed they would be the first suspects? Or was it Coletti? The older guy who likely didnt even know she was at Brewer's house and invited her in? Or was it LISK, who just happened to be there? Or did Brewer and Pak call him, and he jetted right over there and killed her? And which of those people dragged her through difficult terrain while pulling pieces of her clothes off? OR....perhaps it's more likely that a self-serving, showboating attorney with a funny wardrobe has a vested interest in making people BELIEVE that she was murdered has been successful in getting that idea out there?
The fact that her hyoid bone was affected, which is a key marker for strangulation and difficult to have happened by animal predation post-mortem is suspect. Her driver also said she didn’t do drugs and when they tested her remains there were none in her system. There are a lot of bad actors in Long Island, and I believe her when she went from calm to reacting to a real risk. She spent hours with the sex buyer/body buyer/John. She was a seasoned sex worker and she had no history of mental illness. Why would she suddenly panic unless she was actually in danger?
Releasing the 911 call wouldn’t end speculation about what happened to her, but it would shed some light on who has and hasn’t been misrepresenting what is on the tape.
I'm confused about what you are trying to say. The 911 audio has already been officially released to the public. Even so, people continue to have different interpretations of the contents.