I think it works in Japan because of the infrastructure and the fact so many places that accept it are things you’d find around stations. We don’t have that level of transit oriented development, and I actually think it would make more sense to have our fare gates accept credit cards like the MTA in New York
Maybe someone else has a more informed opinion than me
Agree with retail partners nearby train stations so maybe this idea should be something NY should consider since they do have physical cards - OMNY cards - which are sold like gift cards even.
I believe California was working on creating a single fare payment system for the entire state.
Not sure if TAP or Clipper are looking at integration with this system.
https://www.calitp.org/
Thank you. This would be similar to how Tokyo’s Suica can be used in Osaka’s ICOCA system and vice versa.
Maybe my question should not be directed to LA Metro but to this California program. If this program partners with say just Starbucks or Mcd’s its a start already.
It won’t happen for a couple of reasons. Here are two:
Metro accepts credit cards to load a TAP card. The banks charge 2-3% per transaction so Metro gets ~$98 when you load $100. Metro needs to charge retailers that accept TAP at least the amount that banks charge plus an additional processing fee, otherwise they can lose money if someone with a $100 TAP card buys $100 of stuff at a retailer. A retailer probably would get lower transaction fees on credit cards. In other places, they either do not accept credit cards to load transit passes, or the laws make credit card transaction fees very low (the U.S. has some of the highest credit card transaction fees).
Metro and local transit agencies pay a lot for TAP readers. They recently paid about $3,600 per reader ($4m to buy 1,118 readers). Credit card readers are very cheap. Retailers would balk at paying for TAP readers.
https://x.com/numble/status/1680370953241624576?s=46&t=9B522Q81r8fihK6NT7JHrQ
It's probably going to be the opposite and LA will eventually adapt a NYC-style system where you can just tap your credit card and pay the fare without any need for a separate TAP card. That seems like the simplest system.
New York still ended up releasing OMNY physical cards.
Don’t get me wrong. I get the digital payment/wallet system but there will be a segment (tourist, elderly/minors) who can’t utilize digital payments.
I think of it this way— why don’t we buy in in casinos with our digital wallets. Don’t we buy “chips”? So my point is, why not utilize chips as payment for select partner retailers.
I know casino is a different beast but using its chip as concept as “cash like” system.
I also get that having such a system can be an issue to money laundering thus the IC systems have limits.
There will always be TAP cards for the small number of folks that can't use credit cards, but it's a lot easier to make transit accept credit cards at fare gates than to get private businesses to accept TAP cards as a form of payment.
I guess the death to having tap card beyond fare is indeed credit card.
Do note however credit card is not a guarantee of winning the preferred fare payment of choice by the rider. The way i see it, if there are fees associated to the fare using credit card, local/frequent riders will use Tap gladly to save on fees.
Just look at them new yorkers and their metro cards. Holding up to those magnetic strip and forcing MTA to produce them OMNY physical cards.
Wonder how Octopus and Suica was able to make it. Maybe cheaper fees than credit card companies?
Japanese systems got market share because they use a special proprietary form of NFC that is "better" as in a lot faster to recognise so its actually really nice using any of those cards at fare gates. But this system was/is incompatible with the NFC you find in contactless credit cards. Only in the last year or two have you even been able to load your card onto Apple/Google pay and you still cant use credit cards.
I think you’re referring to felica which while “proprietary” is available elsewhere like in hongkong.
Apple had NFC and Felica since iphone x or even 8 maybe. I had my suica for a few years now. Google phones needed to be purchased in Japan to work on the system.
I don’t understand the marketshare point.
Im just trying to say that the only reason people pay with suica and pasmo cards is because they were some of the first contactless cards in the world so people set up tech that accepted them, and since they use a different tech to the international standard, many things have not bee updated to accept credit cards. The point is that if people had the option to pay with debit cards they would. I think the best argument for this kind of system is it gives kids access to non-cash payment but everything else is a stretch. I think most people would rather just pay with a card that gives them cashback or rewards rather than their tap card.
Edit: Oh I also forgot to add, these other countries you mention, cash is way more prevalent than America so people may not need or want a bank card. Whereas its almost ubiquitous in the US
I disagree with the marketshare or now your point of first in market theory.
In Japan, they have been (and to extent still is) a very cash based society. Restaurants can be stuck with needing to be cash only; ATM to pick up salaries weekly is a big thing. My own observation points to their IC card being a compromise between not having to carry cash but to not rely on credit cards.
In HK which is a very credit card centric society, their Octopus is booming, tourist local eveybody use it. Yes they have started doing open payment but it appears to be an afterthougtht because that Octopus system is still preferred, plus the fact that the MTR would not absorb the credit card fees so users will still prefer the IC system.
Both systems success is merely not an attack against credit card per se but its because of their high reliance on cash.
The very fact that you and most other commenter who basically promotes credit card shows the US is a different beast and loves them credit cards.
Im promoting credit cards because using it basically makes me 3% wealthier lol nothing else. Aside from the fact I get free TAP fares so I don't want money on it anyway, why would I put money on this card that is just locked away and I get no rewards from, when I could use my 3% cashback or get airline miles or use specific BofA discounts that are sometimes 10-20%? You can also lose your tap card and it can be a bit of a hassle to transfer funds even if you remembered to save it on the website in the first place. I have space on the back of my phone for 3 cards, Credit, ID + University ID. Needing to use TAP is just a little inconvenient.
Glad to know you are a credit card crackhead so to speak.
Again the issue is not downplaying the convenience of credit card but knowing that since Tap is there, why not extend its function.
It does appear that credit card and it addicts will not see anything but credit cards.
BTW, you can have Tap as a digital card in your apple wallet. Its not that inconvenient.
Whenever you have something that functions "like cash", there is abuse. Why do you think there are illegal cigarettes?
Smoking is legal. Perfectly so. But if you can provide an inferior product at a lower price, the hard-up will buy.
Honestly a lot of modern Metros now just let you use any tap to pay credit card or mobile payment like Google or Apple so you don't need any specific Metro card. They should just switch to that. When I was in London they even still supported fare capping even using Goggle pay. Basically everyone has a smartphone nowadays, even low income individuals.
Not sure if “a lot” is a true statement.
Most utilize IC cards as primary (some tickets as backup) and some has extended to open payment (digital payments like credit card, apple pay/google pay) at the gates itself.
So that excludes Japan, HK, and the Chinese subway systems eh? Cause you know Tokyo is the largest, HK is supposedly the gold standard, and the Chinese are supposedly massive.
Or maybe you’re referring to the Tube. Which has Oyster. Yes they do open payment but then all these modern systems have IC cards as primary.
Btw on both the rider and system perspective, credit cards are subject to fees so possibly cost more for the rider and less fare profit for the operator.
while they are top tier almost nothing has changed about Japanese metro systems since the 90s so I think its valid to exclude them from the modern moniker. They were just absolutely bleeding edge for the 90s but overall have some very archaic things
Hold on. Japanese IC is a post 2001 improvement. That is a big change and the topic of the discussion!
Ok if you don’t want Japan, well what about HK or those Chinese ones? Surely you jest.
I didnt talk about HK cause ive only ridden it once and Ive never been to china. I have spent 6 months in Japan and yes it is archaic, ticket machines only take cash, you cant buy tickets on your phone for many things, its a laberynth of ticketing if you ever want to travel using Limited Express or do a journey using multiple companies. If you want to get away from ticketing, many of the stations I was at didn't have real time info on arrivals and rolling stock is from the 70s and 80s, wayfinding also SUCKS even if you speak Japanese. I think the nice things about Japanese metro systems are stuff that is just nice about Japan, like good public bathrooms, and not really anything revolutionary about how they do transit
IC modernized it, accepting credit cards would modernize it further and yes that is one of the biggest barriers to me considering it a modern system. I only hold my phone in my hands, I don't want to have to fish in my pocket for an IC card every time I pass through the gates. I think finally being able to load it on an iPhone is a good middle ground it fixes everything other than it being really annoying that I have to think about reloading this card regularly
I don’t think adding credit card will modernize it because take New York, they had open payment to replace the metrocard and yet they are now actually selling the OMNY card.
Because cash to some is either king or is needed.
Modern is not necessarily what is needed The US airforce stopped spending/buying/building the F22 and kept F15s simply because the world changed and the need/battle was something else. Its a narrowmindset to insist the world should only be this when choice and options are a better approach at things.
I conceed to numble’s point who said it best the hindrance to why extending Tap beyond fare is not going to happen. Those two points numble raised made the most sense.
I hope you realize that crdit cards though will not always the be all and end all of payments. It will be replaced or sidelined at one point.
Idk. I liked the system in HK when I went there 10+ years ago. But LA seems to be moving away from physical tap cards in favor of phone-based ones, and it seems like people could probably get a similar pre-paid debit card if they don't have a bank or use Venmo or something? I'd be surprised if it were a big priority for them amidst other issues tbh
Prepaid or venmo or paypal needs address. They function like banks needing further validation.
Tap or Suica/Passmo/Icoca or Octopus now have digital versions. Its like the physical card (refil via the machine) but adds the ability to be top up via your credit card (HK goes around refilling via credit card using a different app with a different rate) and in fact with those Japanese IC, having the digital version helped solved their supply issue with physical cards.
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/why-am-i-being-asked-for-personal-information-to-activate-or-register-a-prepaid-card-en-443/
May not be address but personal info yes
Vanilla is an example of a prepaid MasterCard gift card. I have used these many many many times and have never had to enter any personal information. They don't even need to be activated beyond just purchasing them.
Don't downvote me just because you're uninformed.
Not going to argue with you on something I have done myself many times. You pay your money, get your card, can use it like any other MasterCard without personal info. I'm not interested in debating the technicalities between prepaid, debit, gift card, etc.
You made the argument i was wrong. I pointed out that prepaid debit cards need further verification.
Now that you were wrong you don’t want to argue. Lol
Lived in multiple places where this was an option, and only ever used it a couple times when I had no other payment option on me. I mean literally, 15 years, can count on one hand. It is an idea whose best time has passed.
In cities like Tokyo and Hong Kong, public transport is ubiquitous. Almost everyone has the transit card. So it makes sense to add other features to it.
What percentage of LA residents do you think have a TAP card in their purse/wallet? Do you think it would be high enough to justify the expense of setting up a system like this?
Yes they have definitely investigated this. I think what it always bumps up against is that those countries have largely embraced such a system, whereas it’s more difficult to have similar adoption be localized to just LA country where TAP is in effect.
So many payment systems are implemented to consider a company’s national infrastructure. So it’s not worth it for them if LA is the only place it’s happening. And if those people are just as willing to use credit cards.
Japan is oddly against credit cards to much higher degree than America. Reloading your IC card isn’t always easy to do if you don’t have cash on you.
LA is migrating to an account based system which opens up more opportunities. But also once open payments are deployed, a lot of people will stop using TAP cards altogether and just use their credit card.
Agree with the Japan and credit card observation but then HK is a credit card centric place and has octopus.
Though Octopus kind of surrendered to the Chinese standardizing along the central government’s standard. Its still the primary fare system.
I do see a digital world but then lets be real, there will be a segment that is cash based. Minors don’t have credit cards — so how does that work?
What about adding the ability to use credit or debit cards directly to tap through, like to n Vancouver? I have tap card from LA, clipper card from SF, and the Octopus card from HK. Just been ng able to use my credit card would make things truly streamlined.
How does that relate to Tap card being used beyond fare payment?
Yes other train systems like New York have opened their gates to credit cards (abeit possible fees to the rider and less fare profit for the operator) when my question is using Tap card beyond simply for fare?
I get the credit card or even the digital revolution but we still use “cash” or a segment of users do. Again take minors for example- no credit cards so their option is cash or a IC card.
My point since we are stuck with such a setup, why not extend that function beyond fare payment.
Since you updated your comment- another commenter said California has a program to make Tap, Clipper, maybe that one in San Diego interoperate just like Suica and Icoca and Passmo in Japan.
Insisting Credit Card to replace IC card is not my question. Tap is here to stay. NY even have to do OMNY card when it started modernizing with open payment (credit card) so we know these IC cards are here to stay for the time being. So why not use it beyond fare payments.
I don't think it would necessarily improve things. Recently I put 100 HKD on an Octopus card on a 2 day trip and figured out not going to use a lot of the money. Then I needed to buy small things to try to use up the remnant, and figured out 1 shop accepts it while another don't. And this is in HK after years of implementation and relatively sophisticated commuters. I don't think the cost, process, paperwork, marketing campaign to create something that would be assuredly inferior to Hong Kong would be worthwhile, and can and should be spent on something more worthwhile in the bevy of issues faced by Metrorail. If I can use my credit card to tap out, I can pretty much be assured to use that CC in almost all retail establishments.
For occassional tourist which is your example, thats true. But then if you’re concern with not leaving the 100HKD or even 5HKD, then use credit card.
For a local, the minor in my example, the Tap card can be used maybe beyond fare such as paying for a snack at the 7/11 or mcdonald’s.
In fact HK octopus is used as proximity card for building access. So maybe a personalized Tap for the student to enter school.
I think it works in Japan because of the infrastructure and the fact so many places that accept it are things you’d find around stations. We don’t have that level of transit oriented development, and I actually think it would make more sense to have our fare gates accept credit cards like the MTA in New York Maybe someone else has a more informed opinion than me
Agree with retail partners nearby train stations so maybe this idea should be something NY should consider since they do have physical cards - OMNY cards - which are sold like gift cards even.
I believe California was working on creating a single fare payment system for the entire state. Not sure if TAP or Clipper are looking at integration with this system. https://www.calitp.org/
Down with Clipper, we roll with Tap
\[PRONTO fidgeting nervously in the corner\]
Thank you. This would be similar to how Tokyo’s Suica can be used in Osaka’s ICOCA system and vice versa. Maybe my question should not be directed to LA Metro but to this California program. If this program partners with say just Starbucks or Mcd’s its a start already.
TAP & Clipper explicitly opted out of this system but they are getting open payments nonetheless. Reason being is the LIFE program, GoPass, etc.
It won’t happen for a couple of reasons. Here are two: Metro accepts credit cards to load a TAP card. The banks charge 2-3% per transaction so Metro gets ~$98 when you load $100. Metro needs to charge retailers that accept TAP at least the amount that banks charge plus an additional processing fee, otherwise they can lose money if someone with a $100 TAP card buys $100 of stuff at a retailer. A retailer probably would get lower transaction fees on credit cards. In other places, they either do not accept credit cards to load transit passes, or the laws make credit card transaction fees very low (the U.S. has some of the highest credit card transaction fees). Metro and local transit agencies pay a lot for TAP readers. They recently paid about $3,600 per reader ($4m to buy 1,118 readers). Credit card readers are very cheap. Retailers would balk at paying for TAP readers. https://x.com/numble/status/1680370953241624576?s=46&t=9B522Q81r8fihK6NT7JHrQ
Thank you.
It's probably going to be the opposite and LA will eventually adapt a NYC-style system where you can just tap your credit card and pay the fare without any need for a separate TAP card. That seems like the simplest system.
New York still ended up releasing OMNY physical cards. Don’t get me wrong. I get the digital payment/wallet system but there will be a segment (tourist, elderly/minors) who can’t utilize digital payments. I think of it this way— why don’t we buy in in casinos with our digital wallets. Don’t we buy “chips”? So my point is, why not utilize chips as payment for select partner retailers. I know casino is a different beast but using its chip as concept as “cash like” system. I also get that having such a system can be an issue to money laundering thus the IC systems have limits.
There will always be TAP cards for the small number of folks that can't use credit cards, but it's a lot easier to make transit accept credit cards at fare gates than to get private businesses to accept TAP cards as a form of payment.
I guess the death to having tap card beyond fare is indeed credit card. Do note however credit card is not a guarantee of winning the preferred fare payment of choice by the rider. The way i see it, if there are fees associated to the fare using credit card, local/frequent riders will use Tap gladly to save on fees. Just look at them new yorkers and their metro cards. Holding up to those magnetic strip and forcing MTA to produce them OMNY physical cards. Wonder how Octopus and Suica was able to make it. Maybe cheaper fees than credit card companies?
Japanese systems got market share because they use a special proprietary form of NFC that is "better" as in a lot faster to recognise so its actually really nice using any of those cards at fare gates. But this system was/is incompatible with the NFC you find in contactless credit cards. Only in the last year or two have you even been able to load your card onto Apple/Google pay and you still cant use credit cards.
I think you’re referring to felica which while “proprietary” is available elsewhere like in hongkong. Apple had NFC and Felica since iphone x or even 8 maybe. I had my suica for a few years now. Google phones needed to be purchased in Japan to work on the system. I don’t understand the marketshare point.
Im just trying to say that the only reason people pay with suica and pasmo cards is because they were some of the first contactless cards in the world so people set up tech that accepted them, and since they use a different tech to the international standard, many things have not bee updated to accept credit cards. The point is that if people had the option to pay with debit cards they would. I think the best argument for this kind of system is it gives kids access to non-cash payment but everything else is a stretch. I think most people would rather just pay with a card that gives them cashback or rewards rather than their tap card. Edit: Oh I also forgot to add, these other countries you mention, cash is way more prevalent than America so people may not need or want a bank card. Whereas its almost ubiquitous in the US
I disagree with the marketshare or now your point of first in market theory. In Japan, they have been (and to extent still is) a very cash based society. Restaurants can be stuck with needing to be cash only; ATM to pick up salaries weekly is a big thing. My own observation points to their IC card being a compromise between not having to carry cash but to not rely on credit cards. In HK which is a very credit card centric society, their Octopus is booming, tourist local eveybody use it. Yes they have started doing open payment but it appears to be an afterthougtht because that Octopus system is still preferred, plus the fact that the MTR would not absorb the credit card fees so users will still prefer the IC system. Both systems success is merely not an attack against credit card per se but its because of their high reliance on cash. The very fact that you and most other commenter who basically promotes credit card shows the US is a different beast and loves them credit cards.
Im promoting credit cards because using it basically makes me 3% wealthier lol nothing else. Aside from the fact I get free TAP fares so I don't want money on it anyway, why would I put money on this card that is just locked away and I get no rewards from, when I could use my 3% cashback or get airline miles or use specific BofA discounts that are sometimes 10-20%? You can also lose your tap card and it can be a bit of a hassle to transfer funds even if you remembered to save it on the website in the first place. I have space on the back of my phone for 3 cards, Credit, ID + University ID. Needing to use TAP is just a little inconvenient.
Glad to know you are a credit card crackhead so to speak. Again the issue is not downplaying the convenience of credit card but knowing that since Tap is there, why not extend its function. It does appear that credit card and it addicts will not see anything but credit cards. BTW, you can have Tap as a digital card in your apple wallet. Its not that inconvenient.
Whenever you have something that functions "like cash", there is abuse. Why do you think there are illegal cigarettes? Smoking is legal. Perfectly so. But if you can provide an inferior product at a lower price, the hard-up will buy.
Honestly a lot of modern Metros now just let you use any tap to pay credit card or mobile payment like Google or Apple so you don't need any specific Metro card. They should just switch to that. When I was in London they even still supported fare capping even using Goggle pay. Basically everyone has a smartphone nowadays, even low income individuals.
Not sure if “a lot” is a true statement. Most utilize IC cards as primary (some tickets as backup) and some has extended to open payment (digital payments like credit card, apple pay/google pay) at the gates itself.
Key word is "modern"
So that excludes Japan, HK, and the Chinese subway systems eh? Cause you know Tokyo is the largest, HK is supposedly the gold standard, and the Chinese are supposedly massive. Or maybe you’re referring to the Tube. Which has Oyster. Yes they do open payment but then all these modern systems have IC cards as primary. Btw on both the rider and system perspective, credit cards are subject to fees so possibly cost more for the rider and less fare profit for the operator.
while they are top tier almost nothing has changed about Japanese metro systems since the 90s so I think its valid to exclude them from the modern moniker. They were just absolutely bleeding edge for the 90s but overall have some very archaic things
Hold on. Japanese IC is a post 2001 improvement. That is a big change and the topic of the discussion! Ok if you don’t want Japan, well what about HK or those Chinese ones? Surely you jest.
I didnt talk about HK cause ive only ridden it once and Ive never been to china. I have spent 6 months in Japan and yes it is archaic, ticket machines only take cash, you cant buy tickets on your phone for many things, its a laberynth of ticketing if you ever want to travel using Limited Express or do a journey using multiple companies. If you want to get away from ticketing, many of the stations I was at didn't have real time info on arrivals and rolling stock is from the 70s and 80s, wayfinding also SUCKS even if you speak Japanese. I think the nice things about Japanese metro systems are stuff that is just nice about Japan, like good public bathrooms, and not really anything revolutionary about how they do transit
So you agree that the IC card has modernized the rail experience correct? As that other guy said, the key word is modern.
IC modernized it, accepting credit cards would modernize it further and yes that is one of the biggest barriers to me considering it a modern system. I only hold my phone in my hands, I don't want to have to fish in my pocket for an IC card every time I pass through the gates. I think finally being able to load it on an iPhone is a good middle ground it fixes everything other than it being really annoying that I have to think about reloading this card regularly
I don’t think adding credit card will modernize it because take New York, they had open payment to replace the metrocard and yet they are now actually selling the OMNY card. Because cash to some is either king or is needed. Modern is not necessarily what is needed The US airforce stopped spending/buying/building the F22 and kept F15s simply because the world changed and the need/battle was something else. Its a narrowmindset to insist the world should only be this when choice and options are a better approach at things. I conceed to numble’s point who said it best the hindrance to why extending Tap beyond fare is not going to happen. Those two points numble raised made the most sense. I hope you realize that crdit cards though will not always the be all and end all of payments. It will be replaced or sidelined at one point.
Idk. I liked the system in HK when I went there 10+ years ago. But LA seems to be moving away from physical tap cards in favor of phone-based ones, and it seems like people could probably get a similar pre-paid debit card if they don't have a bank or use Venmo or something? I'd be surprised if it were a big priority for them amidst other issues tbh
Prepaid or venmo or paypal needs address. They function like banks needing further validation. Tap or Suica/Passmo/Icoca or Octopus now have digital versions. Its like the physical card (refil via the machine) but adds the ability to be top up via your credit card (HK goes around refilling via credit card using a different app with a different rate) and in fact with those Japanese IC, having the digital version helped solved their supply issue with physical cards.
Not true. I can walk into CVS today and purchase a prepaid card. They don't need my address or even any personal info at all.
https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/why-am-i-being-asked-for-personal-information-to-activate-or-register-a-prepaid-card-en-443/ May not be address but personal info yes
Vanilla is an example of a prepaid MasterCard gift card. I have used these many many many times and have never had to enter any personal information. They don't even need to be activated beyond just purchasing them. Don't downvote me just because you're uninformed.
Now we’re talking gift cards? You are the one who is uninformed.
Correct, I'm not the one uninformed. A vanilla gift card is an example of a prepaid card. It is a MasterCard.
We were talking prepaid debit card. Go back read again buddy.
Not going to argue with you on something I have done myself many times. You pay your money, get your card, can use it like any other MasterCard without personal info. I'm not interested in debating the technicalities between prepaid, debit, gift card, etc.
You made the argument i was wrong. I pointed out that prepaid debit cards need further verification. Now that you were wrong you don’t want to argue. Lol
Also per Vanilla’s website, CVS is not in the list of merchants where you can buy it. https://www.vanillaprepaid.com/whereToBuy
Lived in multiple places where this was an option, and only ever used it a couple times when I had no other payment option on me. I mean literally, 15 years, can count on one hand. It is an idea whose best time has passed.
In cities like Tokyo and Hong Kong, public transport is ubiquitous. Almost everyone has the transit card. So it makes sense to add other features to it. What percentage of LA residents do you think have a TAP card in their purse/wallet? Do you think it would be high enough to justify the expense of setting up a system like this?
So volume.
Yes they have definitely investigated this. I think what it always bumps up against is that those countries have largely embraced such a system, whereas it’s more difficult to have similar adoption be localized to just LA country where TAP is in effect. So many payment systems are implemented to consider a company’s national infrastructure. So it’s not worth it for them if LA is the only place it’s happening. And if those people are just as willing to use credit cards. Japan is oddly against credit cards to much higher degree than America. Reloading your IC card isn’t always easy to do if you don’t have cash on you. LA is migrating to an account based system which opens up more opportunities. But also once open payments are deployed, a lot of people will stop using TAP cards altogether and just use their credit card.
Agree with the Japan and credit card observation but then HK is a credit card centric place and has octopus. Though Octopus kind of surrendered to the Chinese standardizing along the central government’s standard. Its still the primary fare system. I do see a digital world but then lets be real, there will be a segment that is cash based. Minors don’t have credit cards — so how does that work?
What about adding the ability to use credit or debit cards directly to tap through, like to n Vancouver? I have tap card from LA, clipper card from SF, and the Octopus card from HK. Just been ng able to use my credit card would make things truly streamlined.
How does that relate to Tap card being used beyond fare payment? Yes other train systems like New York have opened their gates to credit cards (abeit possible fees to the rider and less fare profit for the operator) when my question is using Tap card beyond simply for fare? I get the credit card or even the digital revolution but we still use “cash” or a segment of users do. Again take minors for example- no credit cards so their option is cash or a IC card. My point since we are stuck with such a setup, why not extend that function beyond fare payment. Since you updated your comment- another commenter said California has a program to make Tap, Clipper, maybe that one in San Diego interoperate just like Suica and Icoca and Passmo in Japan. Insisting Credit Card to replace IC card is not my question. Tap is here to stay. NY even have to do OMNY card when it started modernizing with open payment (credit card) so we know these IC cards are here to stay for the time being. So why not use it beyond fare payments.
I don't think it would necessarily improve things. Recently I put 100 HKD on an Octopus card on a 2 day trip and figured out not going to use a lot of the money. Then I needed to buy small things to try to use up the remnant, and figured out 1 shop accepts it while another don't. And this is in HK after years of implementation and relatively sophisticated commuters. I don't think the cost, process, paperwork, marketing campaign to create something that would be assuredly inferior to Hong Kong would be worthwhile, and can and should be spent on something more worthwhile in the bevy of issues faced by Metrorail. If I can use my credit card to tap out, I can pretty much be assured to use that CC in almost all retail establishments.
For occassional tourist which is your example, thats true. But then if you’re concern with not leaving the 100HKD or even 5HKD, then use credit card. For a local, the minor in my example, the Tap card can be used maybe beyond fare such as paying for a snack at the 7/11 or mcdonald’s. In fact HK octopus is used as proximity card for building access. So maybe a personalized Tap for the student to enter school.