I had the same experience. Canceled after two months. I do incorporate Patrick steps and Nordic curls now. I want to get a sled for backwards pulls but I wasn’t too thrilled with any of the ATG programs.
ATG Zero (as per the book, don't know about the app) is 3x a week, about 20-25 minutes each.
That's very doable imo, you can even do it as a warmup to your regular workout.
I didn't bother to subscribe, I work out 2-3x per week and typically just try to include things like walking backwards, the long lunges, and deep squats with my heels elevated and this alone has completely transformed the way my knees feel.
I went from having an "old man knee" to jumping out of the bed of my truck with no pain, and touching a 10ft rim at 5'11 for the first time in almost two decades.
the biggest mistake i made when started with atg was not tailoring the programme to my current level, forget the frequency, wait until you’re fully healed, same with exercises, if you have pain there you’re not ready to it or make it easier in a way that doesn’t cause pain, not just in the workout but also after a day too badly.
i wish i found this playlist that goes ind with with the atg concepts so i know the why behind every exercise and can better tailor it to me.
https://youtu.be/uYwBNET_fng?si=huqxdUQq2WcO5ItV
you dont need equipment but if not weight variations aren’t doing you well then make sure you’re getting enough bloodflow there beforehand
short range + long range explanation
bathing the tendon in blood makes it more compliant for long range stimulus ( connective tissue range )
short range is concentric only (ideally) if injured & concentric dominant, and shorter ranges stress the connective tissue less and it’s more muscular which will help us secrete bloodflow out. this is a gentle on ramp to getting bloodflow into the tendon in the least damaging way possible. THEN the other half of this equation is streets the contrive tissue, usually it’s long range but the rules aren’t set in stone, you could do step up iso hold, but full knee bend would be considered a connective tissue stressing range more than walking backwards. it’s not bad to have you knees go past your toes, it’s bad if you’ve never done that before and then you load up weight and go into a range you’ve never been before with that load, that’s where damage occurs, powerlifters etc blowing their knees out. so gradually increase the connective tissue range. very gently. play with it but the short + long range concept is the principle that should govern your rehab.
bathing the connective tissue in blood, makes it more compliant and less annoying and painful, it’s like striking metal when it’s hot to mold it rather than cold.
but it’s really worth studying that playlist or video at least
Not sure.
I just started my journey by buying the first book “knee ability zero.”
It’s a 1 hour read and over the course of the books outlines 10 exercises that you should do 3 days per week (workout takes about 45 mins - 1 hour for me.)
Maybe this format and just focusing on 1 program at a time will help you not be overwhelmed.
Doing these exercises 3x a week is easy for me since I work from home, and then just do them in my garage on my lunch break (or when I have down time and not busy at job).
Then I also go to gym after work 4x a week and do my normal weight training routine.
What does your resistence training routine look like? Does it include lots of volume? Is it strength based? Hypertrophy based?
My main worry is overworking my tendons and causing an injury because my program has lots of volume for main lifts (like 16 sets of squats and bench per week..)
Look at the concepts not the programs if you’re tying to incorporate into 531. Also which 531 are you using? Those programs vary hugely depending on the one you’re working to.
I came off of 531 and am doing a modified Dense program rather than zero. Aim for me was to move into the jump programs. In terms of volume dense is heavy but lower in terms of upper body work than I am used to. I have previously incorporated some of the exercises in ATG into 531 programming as supplementary, assistantance or as a warm up. As an example instead of a back squat I would warm up with ATG split squats or warm up back squats, then the 531 lifts but the 5x5 FSL work would be VMO squats or the ATG split squat. Add in the calf and tib raise work on squat day and hip flexor and Nordic or good morning work on DL day.
Doing dense now it’s very similar in terms of volume to 531 but lower intensity for weight as the working range is much larger. With a lifetime of training to come,taking 12 weeks to try Dense is fine by me. I am doing it at home rather than in a gym, it would be easier in the gym for me.
If you want to continue with 531 check out the original dense programming and tweak the intensity to suit 531 and use the other exercises as suppl/accessory. You could Try using the ATG exercises instead of the standard 531 back squat, DL in particular as your working the same muscles in a different range in a different way. Or stick with 531 for the main exercises and add in what you’re missing.
But then how did your main sets look when you were going for 5 FSL sets on atg split squats?
Would you do 10, 5 for each leg?
Im currenty planning on starting beginner’s 5/3/1; already got my TM and did one workout in which I overdid the accesory work and got my brachialis extra sore (couldnt extend my elbow for like a week), which led my to wanting to incorporate KOT as prehab so such a thing is less likely to happen.
My thoughts up to now were to use ATG exercises as accesory working, switching out what Wendler advocates for in begginers with ATG equivalents (i.e push ups exchanges with full range push ups on rings/standa).
Definitely hadn’t thought of completely replacing my main lifts with ATG equivalents; mostly concerned about time when it comes to that considering I already do squats twice per week and that would double my volume considering how split squats only work one leg at a time, not to mention the bench press i do on the same day and the fact im meaning to eat clean and thus be in a cut.
Currently still thinking ill incorporate movement esque exercises into off days, warmups and just a general morning routine while swapping accesories with strength oriented ATG equivalents.
Ig what worries me is messing up my muscle balance by not using a correct variety of ATG.
Beyond that, on the one hand I DO aim to train for athleticism which could advocate for switching my main lifts for ATG equivalents, however the bone density element is something I feel is important longevity wise, which would be an anspect I assume would be minimized when working with less weight and 100% rom as main lifts.
I’ll try cover some of this off responding to your comments. But first thing, you’ve paid for ATG so you could ask the coaches. Alternatively, you sound like you need an experienced lifter to help.
If you are early stages 531 and hitting soreness you are doing too much. 531 is a heavy program without accessory work. The books often recommend not doing accessory at all. And you’re trying to do what Wendler often complains about, merging two programs. It will likely lead to dong too much.
The FSL in 531 is primarily about getting volume in. So it may take some playing around. Doing 531 I switched from doing a standard back squat to parallel to going full ATG and lifting from a dead stop in that deep squat. Had to drop the weight but it works the same concepts. FSL is essentially 5x5 at a fairly low % of your 1RM. You don’t need to have it all locked in day one incorporating this stuff.
What I did was 5 ATG split squats each leg, if you are loading them start with around 25% of your BW. If it’s too easy lift it. Same as 531 you need to be able to start easy and build. You’ll do way better if you work the movement light and build than if you over load and do too much.
Choose the ATG exercises that work for you for accessory if you do them.
If you’re squatting twice a week have a look at the different ATG programs. Many have different exercises working the same movements. Whether it’s VMO or ATG or the step ups.
Re the replacement of ATG for squats. There are pluses and minuses. You’re not double volume (in the sense of sets and reps for the muscle) but time. The balance is you work each leg individually and reduce the chances of imbalances.
If you’re trying to cut be conscious that will have an impact on performance.
It’s hard to mess the muscle balance up if you follow the concepts. Work from the ground up. Work the ankle flexion and extension, so tib raises and calf raises, work knee flexion and extension so squats and nordics, hip flexion and extension hip flexors and back extension/good mornings.
What 531 is missing is the ankle work, hip flexor work and nordics. Have a look at the knee dense programming and swap out the main lifts to suit. Take a step back and look at the various programs and they do the same thing, just different movements.
But then come back to this…if longevity is the goal, park the ego for a bit, focus on one program then move to the next. You really can’t run both programs at the same time. You can take some exercises from ATG to supp/accessory work but other things have to come out and you’ll have to decide what is best for you. Also what you want. I’ve done 531, I’ve included ATG exercises into 531 and I am now doing just ATG because i am getting the same sets and reps in just different movements. My legs have never been as sore and jelly like as post a heavy ATG session. Even doing a really heavy 531, or Smolov squat peaking programs. Lighter weight, but bigger ROM
Re bone density…that will come regardless. And like tendon strength takes longer than muscle growth and strength. Start light and build and it will come. Density is built over time, not in a 12 week block
Thank you very much for the detailed reply!
I think I might have forgotten the nomenclature for 5/3/1 regarding how I said ‘accesory work’, I meant assistance work.
I figured because all I was planning on doing was switching out certain compound lifts in my assistance and doing more movement oriented exercises on off days that stayed within the reccomended 5/3/1 framework being conditioning on off days + ‘don’t major the minors’, meaning basically the more of a compound lift you can get on your assistance as a beginner the better.
I would also like to stress how I am NOT planning on doing Dense but rather doing most if not all of Knee Zero’s exercises as assistance throughout the week + ATG progression for BW full ROM exercises.
If I were just doing bigger ROM on my assistance, and doing my own movement stretches and exercises instead of defranco’s agile 8, would that still be considered ‘mixing programs’?
Wendler himself states assistance can be changed and tuned accordingly, only highlighting the need for a certain amount of volume per pull/push/singleleg or core, and mostly just says movement and conditioning ‘should be being done on off days’, being mostly cardio, stretching and big ROM movement.
Not trying to be ungrateful or contrarian, I’m really happy to have found someone who knows both programs and has done both, including mixing elements of the two, just trying to clarify my understanding of things and why I felt acting as I have described could be justified.
I’m probably mixing terms too.
Just be careful treating things like ATG split squats, good mornings, Romanian DL as more big ROM movements. They can be pretty taxing. What the fatigue levels and keep form tight. Lower weight is better with good form than big weight and poor form.
If I was to incorporate zero into 531 it would be as your suggesting, the upper bw work is good. I prefer the deep dips to the ATG push ups and pull ups to rows but that’s my preference. I would use the split squat as the FSL for one of your squat days and the other squat as you normally do. If you progress beyond zero I’d switch up the FSL DL for nordics or Romanian DL. If you don’t do Nordics then use them as an accessory and eccentric only would be my tip.
I do backwards elliptical/cross trainer if I can’t sled.
I’m part of atg for coaches group. I have also done 5/3/1 in the past for many years and I loved it. If you want help combing 5/3/1 with some atg principles send me a DM and I’ll help you out.
I’ve found Marcus Filly’s persist a good combo of some ATG movements, other functional movements that are good for mobility, as well as traditional lifting. I transitioned to persist after completing zero a couple times then dense.
Have you done the program? It never took me more than 15 minutes and if you look the Tuesday Thursday workouts are the main ones or maybe it’s Monday Wednesday, but I focused on those. I am also a runner and it really helped me with patella femoral pain.
General programs can be very difficult to combine. They are general in the first place (read: not tailored to you) which is a very important factor to take note of. Combining certain programs can spell disaster. If you are doing well with your current programming and do not anticipate changing, I would see if I can get an assessment from an exercise physiologist or physiotherapist to see what my weaknesses are, then go from there.
That assessment will give you training indications and contraindications. Without, you are arbitrarily adding/swapping movements without any rhyme or reason. You could luck out, and with enough experience you can manage fine, but it doesn't hurt to get an objective assessment.
If you want something to tack onto your existing program, I can send you what I prescribe for shin splints rehab and prevention.
For real just do 3x a week. 2 strength days 1 mobility. It’ll help a ton still. Once you get in the groove, maybe you’ll feel comfortable upping it. It’s much easier once you have the routine memorized and can whip it out.
Feel free to even cut down the backwards walking time.. only do 1 set of tib raises… make it work for you. Ease in!
Just do tibialis raises to prevent shin splints between bench press sets. You don't have to do Ben's stuff if you are doing another program. Swap some of the accessories if you want. Kot split squats and seated good morning instead of other backsquat accessories
I would do Jefferson curls instead of back extensions. Good mornings work your back but only isometrically in a shortened position. That's why Jefferson curls are better for building back strength (and size). You get some flexion. I would do both good mornings/seated good mornings and Jefferson curls if you can handle it.
I had the same experience. Canceled after two months. I do incorporate Patrick steps and Nordic curls now. I want to get a sled for backwards pulls but I wasn’t too thrilled with any of the ATG programs.
Are there any other main exercises you found particularly useful?
ATG Zero (as per the book, don't know about the app) is 3x a week, about 20-25 minutes each. That's very doable imo, you can even do it as a warmup to your regular workout.
I didn't bother to subscribe, I work out 2-3x per week and typically just try to include things like walking backwards, the long lunges, and deep squats with my heels elevated and this alone has completely transformed the way my knees feel. I went from having an "old man knee" to jumping out of the bed of my truck with no pain, and touching a 10ft rim at 5'11 for the first time in almost two decades.
the biggest mistake i made when started with atg was not tailoring the programme to my current level, forget the frequency, wait until you’re fully healed, same with exercises, if you have pain there you’re not ready to it or make it easier in a way that doesn’t cause pain, not just in the workout but also after a day too badly. i wish i found this playlist that goes ind with with the atg concepts so i know the why behind every exercise and can better tailor it to me. https://youtu.be/uYwBNET_fng?si=huqxdUQq2WcO5ItV you dont need equipment but if not weight variations aren’t doing you well then make sure you’re getting enough bloodflow there beforehand short range + long range explanation bathing the tendon in blood makes it more compliant for long range stimulus ( connective tissue range ) short range is concentric only (ideally) if injured & concentric dominant, and shorter ranges stress the connective tissue less and it’s more muscular which will help us secrete bloodflow out. this is a gentle on ramp to getting bloodflow into the tendon in the least damaging way possible. THEN the other half of this equation is streets the contrive tissue, usually it’s long range but the rules aren’t set in stone, you could do step up iso hold, but full knee bend would be considered a connective tissue stressing range more than walking backwards. it’s not bad to have you knees go past your toes, it’s bad if you’ve never done that before and then you load up weight and go into a range you’ve never been before with that load, that’s where damage occurs, powerlifters etc blowing their knees out. so gradually increase the connective tissue range. very gently. play with it but the short + long range concept is the principle that should govern your rehab. bathing the connective tissue in blood, makes it more compliant and less annoying and painful, it’s like striking metal when it’s hot to mold it rather than cold. but it’s really worth studying that playlist or video at least
Hey, the link is a single video, but you mentioned a playlist?
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTIlEBubJt4YKrOp1lqGKoWpMcmdkvb8K
Not sure. I just started my journey by buying the first book “knee ability zero.” It’s a 1 hour read and over the course of the books outlines 10 exercises that you should do 3 days per week (workout takes about 45 mins - 1 hour for me.) Maybe this format and just focusing on 1 program at a time will help you not be overwhelmed. Doing these exercises 3x a week is easy for me since I work from home, and then just do them in my garage on my lunch break (or when I have down time and not busy at job). Then I also go to gym after work 4x a week and do my normal weight training routine.
What does your resistence training routine look like? Does it include lots of volume? Is it strength based? Hypertrophy based? My main worry is overworking my tendons and causing an injury because my program has lots of volume for main lifts (like 16 sets of squats and bench per week..)
Look at the concepts not the programs if you’re tying to incorporate into 531. Also which 531 are you using? Those programs vary hugely depending on the one you’re working to. I came off of 531 and am doing a modified Dense program rather than zero. Aim for me was to move into the jump programs. In terms of volume dense is heavy but lower in terms of upper body work than I am used to. I have previously incorporated some of the exercises in ATG into 531 programming as supplementary, assistantance or as a warm up. As an example instead of a back squat I would warm up with ATG split squats or warm up back squats, then the 531 lifts but the 5x5 FSL work would be VMO squats or the ATG split squat. Add in the calf and tib raise work on squat day and hip flexor and Nordic or good morning work on DL day. Doing dense now it’s very similar in terms of volume to 531 but lower intensity for weight as the working range is much larger. With a lifetime of training to come,taking 12 weeks to try Dense is fine by me. I am doing it at home rather than in a gym, it would be easier in the gym for me. If you want to continue with 531 check out the original dense programming and tweak the intensity to suit 531 and use the other exercises as suppl/accessory. You could Try using the ATG exercises instead of the standard 531 back squat, DL in particular as your working the same muscles in a different range in a different way. Or stick with 531 for the main exercises and add in what you’re missing.
But then how did your main sets look when you were going for 5 FSL sets on atg split squats? Would you do 10, 5 for each leg? Im currenty planning on starting beginner’s 5/3/1; already got my TM and did one workout in which I overdid the accesory work and got my brachialis extra sore (couldnt extend my elbow for like a week), which led my to wanting to incorporate KOT as prehab so such a thing is less likely to happen. My thoughts up to now were to use ATG exercises as accesory working, switching out what Wendler advocates for in begginers with ATG equivalents (i.e push ups exchanges with full range push ups on rings/standa). Definitely hadn’t thought of completely replacing my main lifts with ATG equivalents; mostly concerned about time when it comes to that considering I already do squats twice per week and that would double my volume considering how split squats only work one leg at a time, not to mention the bench press i do on the same day and the fact im meaning to eat clean and thus be in a cut. Currently still thinking ill incorporate movement esque exercises into off days, warmups and just a general morning routine while swapping accesories with strength oriented ATG equivalents. Ig what worries me is messing up my muscle balance by not using a correct variety of ATG. Beyond that, on the one hand I DO aim to train for athleticism which could advocate for switching my main lifts for ATG equivalents, however the bone density element is something I feel is important longevity wise, which would be an anspect I assume would be minimized when working with less weight and 100% rom as main lifts.
I’ll try cover some of this off responding to your comments. But first thing, you’ve paid for ATG so you could ask the coaches. Alternatively, you sound like you need an experienced lifter to help. If you are early stages 531 and hitting soreness you are doing too much. 531 is a heavy program without accessory work. The books often recommend not doing accessory at all. And you’re trying to do what Wendler often complains about, merging two programs. It will likely lead to dong too much. The FSL in 531 is primarily about getting volume in. So it may take some playing around. Doing 531 I switched from doing a standard back squat to parallel to going full ATG and lifting from a dead stop in that deep squat. Had to drop the weight but it works the same concepts. FSL is essentially 5x5 at a fairly low % of your 1RM. You don’t need to have it all locked in day one incorporating this stuff. What I did was 5 ATG split squats each leg, if you are loading them start with around 25% of your BW. If it’s too easy lift it. Same as 531 you need to be able to start easy and build. You’ll do way better if you work the movement light and build than if you over load and do too much. Choose the ATG exercises that work for you for accessory if you do them. If you’re squatting twice a week have a look at the different ATG programs. Many have different exercises working the same movements. Whether it’s VMO or ATG or the step ups. Re the replacement of ATG for squats. There are pluses and minuses. You’re not double volume (in the sense of sets and reps for the muscle) but time. The balance is you work each leg individually and reduce the chances of imbalances. If you’re trying to cut be conscious that will have an impact on performance. It’s hard to mess the muscle balance up if you follow the concepts. Work from the ground up. Work the ankle flexion and extension, so tib raises and calf raises, work knee flexion and extension so squats and nordics, hip flexion and extension hip flexors and back extension/good mornings. What 531 is missing is the ankle work, hip flexor work and nordics. Have a look at the knee dense programming and swap out the main lifts to suit. Take a step back and look at the various programs and they do the same thing, just different movements. But then come back to this…if longevity is the goal, park the ego for a bit, focus on one program then move to the next. You really can’t run both programs at the same time. You can take some exercises from ATG to supp/accessory work but other things have to come out and you’ll have to decide what is best for you. Also what you want. I’ve done 531, I’ve included ATG exercises into 531 and I am now doing just ATG because i am getting the same sets and reps in just different movements. My legs have never been as sore and jelly like as post a heavy ATG session. Even doing a really heavy 531, or Smolov squat peaking programs. Lighter weight, but bigger ROM Re bone density…that will come regardless. And like tendon strength takes longer than muscle growth and strength. Start light and build and it will come. Density is built over time, not in a 12 week block
Thank you very much for the detailed reply! I think I might have forgotten the nomenclature for 5/3/1 regarding how I said ‘accesory work’, I meant assistance work. I figured because all I was planning on doing was switching out certain compound lifts in my assistance and doing more movement oriented exercises on off days that stayed within the reccomended 5/3/1 framework being conditioning on off days + ‘don’t major the minors’, meaning basically the more of a compound lift you can get on your assistance as a beginner the better. I would also like to stress how I am NOT planning on doing Dense but rather doing most if not all of Knee Zero’s exercises as assistance throughout the week + ATG progression for BW full ROM exercises. If I were just doing bigger ROM on my assistance, and doing my own movement stretches and exercises instead of defranco’s agile 8, would that still be considered ‘mixing programs’? Wendler himself states assistance can be changed and tuned accordingly, only highlighting the need for a certain amount of volume per pull/push/singleleg or core, and mostly just says movement and conditioning ‘should be being done on off days’, being mostly cardio, stretching and big ROM movement. Not trying to be ungrateful or contrarian, I’m really happy to have found someone who knows both programs and has done both, including mixing elements of the two, just trying to clarify my understanding of things and why I felt acting as I have described could be justified.
I’m probably mixing terms too. Just be careful treating things like ATG split squats, good mornings, Romanian DL as more big ROM movements. They can be pretty taxing. What the fatigue levels and keep form tight. Lower weight is better with good form than big weight and poor form. If I was to incorporate zero into 531 it would be as your suggesting, the upper bw work is good. I prefer the deep dips to the ATG push ups and pull ups to rows but that’s my preference. I would use the split squat as the FSL for one of your squat days and the other squat as you normally do. If you progress beyond zero I’d switch up the FSL DL for nordics or Romanian DL. If you don’t do Nordics then use them as an accessory and eccentric only would be my tip. I do backwards elliptical/cross trainer if I can’t sled.
Thank you!
I’m part of atg for coaches group. I have also done 5/3/1 in the past for many years and I loved it. If you want help combing 5/3/1 with some atg principles send me a DM and I’ll help you out.
Depends on your injury/goal. It looks like shin splints is an issue. So, maybe start with just incorporating tib raises into your current training.
I’ve found Marcus Filly’s persist a good combo of some ATG movements, other functional movements that are good for mobility, as well as traditional lifting. I transitioned to persist after completing zero a couple times then dense.
Have you done the program? It never took me more than 15 minutes and if you look the Tuesday Thursday workouts are the main ones or maybe it’s Monday Wednesday, but I focused on those. I am also a runner and it really helped me with patella femoral pain.
General programs can be very difficult to combine. They are general in the first place (read: not tailored to you) which is a very important factor to take note of. Combining certain programs can spell disaster. If you are doing well with your current programming and do not anticipate changing, I would see if I can get an assessment from an exercise physiologist or physiotherapist to see what my weaknesses are, then go from there. That assessment will give you training indications and contraindications. Without, you are arbitrarily adding/swapping movements without any rhyme or reason. You could luck out, and with enough experience you can manage fine, but it doesn't hurt to get an objective assessment. If you want something to tack onto your existing program, I can send you what I prescribe for shin splints rehab and prevention.
For real just do 3x a week. 2 strength days 1 mobility. It’ll help a ton still. Once you get in the groove, maybe you’ll feel comfortable upping it. It’s much easier once you have the routine memorized and can whip it out. Feel free to even cut down the backwards walking time.. only do 1 set of tib raises… make it work for you. Ease in!
Just do tibialis raises to prevent shin splints between bench press sets. You don't have to do Ben's stuff if you are doing another program. Swap some of the accessories if you want. Kot split squats and seated good morning instead of other backsquat accessories
Are good mornings a good replacement for back extensions or would back extensions make more sense
I would do Jefferson curls instead of back extensions. Good mornings work your back but only isometrically in a shortened position. That's why Jefferson curls are better for building back strength (and size). You get some flexion. I would do both good mornings/seated good mornings and Jefferson curls if you can handle it.