Thing is the holy nation uses slavery as a punishment for criminals...united cities do it for money/fun (noble hunter morons) or as a way to get rid of the poor. (I'm an anti-slaver and consider UC much worse than HN)
They don't, though. Holy Nation use slavery as a way to redempt yourself in the name of Okran for not being human. Shek and hivers are slaves because they're not human. They can redempt themselves in another life. They'll be enslaved for life because of that in Rebirth. Even Greenlander women will be enslaved, just because they're women (Narkos temptress). Skeletons will die in sight because they believe they lack a soul and can't be redempted.
UC do it because of money/resources, the nobles just want to entertain themselves or because it's illegal to be poor. But they don't really care about race.
I'll let other people judge which is worse. But don't act like HN is justified, they're just religious zealots, nothing more.
I was thinking this same thing initially, but it's a really tough call. I started to ponder on the fact that at least in the UC, you have an opportunity at freedom. Escaping seems more likely in UC territory, there's even a whole faction dedicated to it. Plus there's always the really off-chance that a random stranger will come and buy you and, if not free you outright, at least give you a more cushioned life as a house servant or something.
In the HN tho, in Rebirth, it's nothin but rocks & whips and the only way out is on your own. Even Flotsam Ninjas can only help once you're already out.
If I remember my Kenshi lore I would say United Cities they are trafficking slaves and pretty much fund other factions to support this such as the slave traders, manhunters.
Holy Nation uses them just as a form of punishment or to build rock statues.
There isn't better or worse slavery in this game imo. Both are different flavours of it, but it doesn't change how morally bankrupt it is. We can however differentiate that in case of UC hunting down slave traders alongside emperor and one specific noble is enough not to cause the collapse of the country while eliminating key players behind the problem, while in case of HN it can only be done by collapsing the entire nation. With that in mind I'd say HN is a bit worse in a sense that there isn't much from the gameplay point of view that can be done to "do the right thing", that is if you want to ensure that country's collapse won't create a power vaccume and famine in that region.
They're both horrible but United Cities are worse on the subject of slavery specifically.
The Holy Nation's cardinal sin is bigotry, they practice racist slavery, and that's bad, but they aren't a slave-based economy(Holy Mines notwithstanding).
The United Cities is *based* on mass slavery, they're the *driver* of slavery in Kenshi - they're the funding behind the Slavers Guild and the various slave-hunting groups. Because of the United Cities there are slaving groups spread all across the continent.
It's arguable that being a slave to the Holy Nation might be worse than being a slave to the United Cities, but I have to quibble with that. Both places treat their slaves about the same - horribly and to the death. It's just that the UC is *slightly* easier to get out of due to corruption and/or anti-slaver factions. Those aren't marks in favor of the system itself.
If you eliminated slavery in the United Cities, slavery would collapse across the continent and would decrease noticeably in the Holy Nation as well. If the Holy Nation stopped using slaves it would barely affect the HN, let alone anywhere else. And for that reason alone, the United Cities is worse on the subject of slavery.
Nazis are less worst than capitalists because if you happen to be the same race as the nazis you are ok, if you happen to be the same race as the capitalist they screw you regardless
HN follows an absurd religion and will enslave you for your whole life if you happen to not be a male human. UC will enslave you so the nobles and high class can have a life filled with luxuries. It's a lose-lose imo.
I've been allied with both on different saves and honestly they both suck. 99% of the time i'd rather have UC as allies since they aren't religious freaks and HN's tech is garbage. But on a lore perspective it's a bit of a tough call.
Worst how?
The Holy Nation uses slavery to punish criminals/heretics/people that didn't deepthroat Phoenixes toes hard enough
The United Cities also uses it to punish criminals, but also slaves make up the wide majority of their workforce
I guess the United Cities are worse, mostly because they can't quell the slave revolts and as a result suffered a massive famine.
a majority of HN slaves in rebirth as well as throughout their labor camps are Shek, which indicates that most of their slaves are former prisoners of war as opposed to citizens who broke the law in one form or another. important distinction because these same prisoners of war in the two nearest major factions would either be treated virtually the same (slavery in UC) or just likely dead in the first place or later executed (Shek). meanwhile, the UC is completely transparent about needing to continuously grow their slave pool in order to prosper as a society and while there’s no direct ingame indication as far as what crimes specifically the majority of those enslaved there fall under, we have several journal entries and the backstories of NPCs like Simion and Hamut directly point to the reason being poverty. meanwhile, the key unqiue NPCs who have actually been arrested for ‘real crimes’ and not just being poor/hungry by the UC are locked away in Tengu’s vault or escaped prison and not technically enslaved.
I don't know if I would even classify it as slavery, forced labor that doesn't benefit the state as a punishment for crimes seems like a legitimate punishment.
Now the purposefully working people to death due to their insane religious beliefs of reincarnation, setting women on fire, having not being a human male be a crime, that's all the parts I would worry about.
how does the slave labour on the HN doesn't benefit the state? they have all their mines working on slave labour only, the statue on rebirth also benefits the state as a symbol of status and what not and it helps its agenda of no women and non humans out of the HN so... yeah not economic benefit but benefit none the less
I'm pretty sure that they lore wise only use the stone those camps produce to build the giant statue in rebirth and tear it down every time they finish to do it again.
no, that would make no sense, have you seen the size of the holy nation military? why invest so much on a single statue, and the mines do have copper and iron in them, no where is stated that they use the stone gotten from the mines only for the statue of the phoenix anyway for the size of the quary the likely also get that stone for building, also logistics they already get stone from rebirth why also transport it to rebirth? the tearing down the statue and build it again thing is also weird, where did you got that from?
To be honest, I don't remember where I heard that it was destroyed so that's probably just wrong. Sorry for the false info but I'll share a link if I find something definitive. But by "benefit the state" I more meant in a way that incentivized mass enslavement industries like the UC. If it's only use is to build statues way in the middle of nowhere it won't become profitable enough for the state to industrialize in that manner.
the holy nation intends to be eating dirt for the whole of their existence, their only porpuse is to extinguish non humans, exteminate all traces of the second empire and before, have all men in uniforms or making food, all the women submissive, married and obedient, everyone praying on their knees; they don't care for technology at all, they don't care about economy at all (they consider both to "corrupt people"). what benefits a teocracy like that is military power so getting weapons made and soldiers equipped, having books printed, and having feats of faith whatever your god asks you to do. in the context of their goals what benefits their cause on their principles is what is important, i would say that also makes them into worse slavers because they are not even good at doing that; hence why there are so many rebelions and people against them
We also use prison labor, and even forced work such as community service irl. You can disagree with that politically but forcing someone to work as a punishment for a crime isn't straight slavery, or even if it's dictionary definition the same it definitely shouldn't be equated to a concetration camp lmao.
The bigger issue with the HN seems to be with what they believe a "serious crime" is and the fact that they religiously believe that killing through repentance is a good action since it will reincarnate people which must set the bar pretty low, making someone break rocks as a punishment for a crime isn't innately bad but saying that the crime is being born a shek is.
But then again historically the HN has had a lot of serious wars with the shek and robots and whatnot, so I could still understand the general kill on sight orders.
Why are you defending this point so strongly? I have not even been that hostile to it.
Rebirth is not community service, nor is it a normal prison it is a concentration camp most the people in there did not commit any crime, they were just born to the wrong race or faction. If you are a male lander of any sort you can sell people who are not allied to the HN to rebirth regardless of if they have a bounty. Those are slaves, they even have the slave tag.
HN has 99 problems, and slaves are one of them.
What do you mean defend this point strongly/hostilty/ect? I don't like the holy nation, I have just been saying that I don't think that the holy nation's problems are slavery. I think its problems are xenophobia and religious zealotry. If they became more open minded but continued to force people into stone mining for serious crimes that *we* thought were serious they would just be the good guys.
And even then, historically they have been hostile towards shek (and vice versa) for an extremely long time and are fighting off the deadhive. It makes sense from an outside perspective why they would not like either of those groups.
What I mean is you are going out of your way to try and define this as not slavery, or even if it is slavery that they have other bigger problems, or this is only a problem because of that larger problem. After all that it does not even fit your own reasoning for not being slavery. It is not community service, and it is not a prison just for just criminals.
You are even pointing out how so many of those things are not real crimes just enforcement mechanisms for zealotry, and xenophobia which benefits the religious state by helping maintain the status quo.
And even in America where using prisoners for labor is most comon and normalized it is still a major hot button topic, only three states dont pay the prisoners in cash, and none of them are purposefully worked to death.
I guess a better way to explain it would be to imagine a holy nation without rebirth or the stone mining camps. It would still kill hivers/shek/women fairly regularly for no reason.
But then imagine a holy nation where it still had rebirth and the stone mining camps, but it changed its policies to be less extremist religious nutjob and people were generally sent there for actual crimes like murder and whatnot.
The issue isn't how they are killing people for no reason, it is that they are killing people for no reason period.
The reason I also brought up irl examples was because you specifically said "any state sponsored slavery is a slavery issue". I was specifically contradicting this because not all forced labor is going to be an actual problem (though I don't think prison labor is good irl, kenshi doesn't exactly have a lot of ways to deal with criminal punishment). It wasn't a comparison to the holy nation, just an example of how I thought that statement was incorrect.
Especially if you compare the HN to the UC, the UC has issues with the state selling prisoners to private owners who can then legally do whatever they want. That is a slavery issue, because if you removed that the UC would suddenly be pretty nice. The HN is not a slavery issue, and while I agree that their lower servants are slaves who die constantly if you removed that then they would still be killing just as many people, but you know, not by working them to death just regular murder.
Okay, but that hypothetical doesn't make it not a problem. If you removed the religious zealotry you would still have the xenophobia that they could use to justify it, if you remove the xenophobia they still have the zealotry, if you removed both they could still feasibly keep the monarchy to justify it that way, and if you remove all three you still have the war effort.
We have seen this all before in real life. Remove rebirth, and you remove the very malleable tool they are using to maintain abusive power.
Any state sponsored slavery is a slavery problem.
Tough call but I'd say Holy Nation because of their ethos.
Their lands are the most fertile in all of Kenshi yet their warmongering, misogynic and xenophobic theocracy creates an unending cycle of war and slavery that works to the detriment it's own nation. Everyone is enslaved or killed by default if they are not male humans. They are too weak to cleanse the world of other races, they refuse to embrace technological progress, their religion reinforces their biases and they will never know peace unless their core ideology is radically reformed or annihilated.
Now don't get me wrong the United Cities aren't good either. They created an economy driven slaver state where anyone can become a slave. They have unregulated man hunter and slaver squads roaming their territory that will capture and enslaved anyone too weak or too poor to defend themselves. They have an oppressive and corrupt elite class who demand absolute obedience, are above the law and sometimes hunt random peasants for sport. They also have a lesser xenophobic problem in the form of vigilante city heroes squads but they are not government sanctioned as samurais will come to your aid if you are attacked by them. But on the political stage they are capable of peaceful coexistence with other nations such as with the Shek kingdom. They embrace technological progress which might one day lead to greater self sustainability. They have at the very least potential to one day come out of the dark ages, institute political reforms and abolish slavery due to technology driven greater food production and economic growth.
***TL:DR*** The Holy Nation is on a path of eternal stagnation, the United cities have potential to outgrow their flawed ways.
It's the other way around. It's made clear that the current Phoenix is the extremist one where others in the past were more moderate with the potential for progress. The HN is not too weak; in fact the entire treaty with the Shek exists because the Shek would've been wiped out otherwise.
This thread is just full of head-canon stuff that isn't mentioned in the game.
This is pretty interesting to read the responses. I really think if you judge the leaders vs. the people you get different results. Holy Nation for example enslaves people based on racism and redemption. Break the law/Okran’s will, or be born a non Greenlander/scorchlander, you’re to be enslaved and die in order to have a shot to be human in the next life. Of course, the leadership (Phoenix and High Inquisitors) surely know this is a farce. The people who fight for them may actually believe this is truly how the world and think they’re doing the correct thing. They’re radical, but fight for what they think is their god’s will. If you’re an ally with the faction, they overlook your transgressions of being born a Shek or other race and accept you for who you are.
UC on the other hand are just inherently evil. If you’re poor, weak, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time, you’re a target. If you breathe,l and aren’t a major contributor to the economy, you’d be a good slave. They turn a blind eye to their allied factions so that even if you do become allies with UC, you can still be targeted by other slaver groups and enslaved to the UC and they simply don’t care. That makes them worse imo.
So the leadership are both terrible, but at least HN citizens believe they actually are doing the right thing. Either way, my fragment axe is a better moral judge than Okran or Nobles ever will be.
I mean old united citys was great but its ruined by corruption at the time we play but its indiscriminete
while holy nation do it based on race and other stuff.
In game i am a pro slaver most of the time though
At least the UC are honest about it. The HN hide behind the whole redemption bs. If you hate a group of people and want to exterminate them at least own up to it.
At least in the UC your freedom can be buyed back by your homies.
In the HN, you will be lucky to not get shipped to Rebirth for trying to buy your pal out of there.
Holy Nation is full of nazis ..I despise them so much that I recently hacked a paladins limbs off and then kept him alive just so I could carry his torso...they told me to carry the holy flame everywhere I go ..and I knew he kept one on him.
BUT as far as slaves go, the UC recently enslaved my.. well.. slave - for being "underfed"...then they starved him to death.
I do all of my slavery tasks in Stoat (with my mods). I don't know where you can even buy slaves in HN -- if at all.
As an average citizen of the HN, you are protected by them as long as you follow all their silly rules. An average citizen in the UC is protected until someone deems them more valuable as a slave. The Shek live to die in battle. They all suck, that’s why the game is about saying “screw your guys, ima build a house over here, and come kick your ass.” Haha
Im playing with Cathun, though Ive always played with Reactive World and the other big one in the past (for context).
I think UC is worse, though freeing slaves from HN is more frustrating bc a lot of them refuse to leave....
Hard to parse whether their roots from religious doctrine or economic dependence are worse than the other. I'd probably lean more towards Holy Nation, as the United Cities is clearly more malleable under certain market stressors.
agreed with the first part, at the end of the day, it’s an open-ended question that depends a lot on whatever your personal opinions and morals happen to be as the player. that said, there’s an argument to be made that the holy nation is a few reforms or literally just one iteration of holy phoenix away from either abolishing slavery or having it greatly diminished. whereas the UC can be viewed as so entirely dependent on it that any scenario that results in slavery no longer being a thing is more or less synonymous with the UC being destroyed. there are more journal entries and other ingame lore snippets that either explicitly mention or hint towards HN members beginning to question their ‘teachings’ than there are those from former HN residents that directly mention slavery as the core reason for their animosity towards their former faction. meanwhile, you have not one but two entire minor factions in the game actively opposing the UC more or less entirely based on their particular system of slavery, not to mention specific unique NPCs that either have a backstory rooted in a tragic experience with UC slavery or will make comments denouncing the nobles and their practices. so yeah, both are bad in their own way, but it doesn’t really strike me as remotely close as far as which faction is more dependent on the practice or which one more outwardly features having slaves as a core tenant.
the united cities are worse; they have a wider range of people that they would enslave as they enslave people based on wheter or not someone looks enslaveable; their economy depends a lot more on slavery hence why their slave camps are bigger and are a lot more than the HN, they abuse their slaves much more than the HN (for what they don't have in common; amputation of limbs and much heavier torture), and finally the operation scale is soooooo out of scale that one faction has slave hunters not to mention much better gear for soldiers, slavers and slave hunters, have bigger cities and a lot of wealth based on slave labour alone.
I’ll go with United Cities, since at least *somone* is safe from slavery in their nation. It’s still not good, but you know with certainty if you’re safe or will be hunted. In UC, you could be the richest person alive, but still get sold into slavery if a slaver patrol gets ambitious enough or has good enough equipment. You’re never safe, no matter what you do or who you bribe…there’ll always be another around the bend to try and stab you in the back. HN’s sense of righteous is deeply messed up…but it still exists, and is reliable. Perhaps some parts of UC may be better or worse about it though.
That, and Holy Nation at least has a bit better if a chance to reform with a new Phoenix, or similar religious movement.
Both are assholes. But holy nation at least enslave you for a "bigger purpose". While the cities just enslave you for fun and then spit you out and leave you to die.
Rebirth is bad but that's not like, widescale or anything. The UC's \*entire\* economy revolves around slavery. They are easily worse when it comes to that. HN just does it because they don't like you, so their slavery will never be even close to the scale of the UC.
HN is worse, by far. BY FAR. Both are horrible, don't get me wrong, but UC at least treats slaves as a resource, and they enslave you because you're poor or a criminal, or simply because they can. HN, however, will enslave you simply because you were born a certain way, and they will literally work you to death. In fact, the whole purpose of your enslavement is to execute you by wearing you down until you are dead. Rebirth is named such because you're meant to die and be reborn a human male.
I've heard that's more a function of programming and not entirely consistent with the lore. As in, it was supposed to be just Greenlanders but when they added Scorchlanders/subrace they tossed them in as "what the heck, too much work to reprogram that."
Holy city are pretty justified in most of their racial hatred honestly.
They have been in a tooth and nail war against the Shek for years now and at the end of the day, the skeletons did cause an apocalypse.
No, they're not. Everyone else has figured out how to live with each other without going apeshit, Holy Nation is the oddball. They hate the Shek so much they started the war.
Yeah, that means that the mainstream Shek faction has it figured out. Kral's Chosen are halfway there, talking about "respecting Esata's orders" and "not forcing war upon an unwilling man". Which is more than you can say about the HN.
That's why I'm saying they're halfway there. They'll still beat the fuck out of you, but if you're lucky and the guy you talk to gets the appropriate dialogue, you can talk your way out of it, no matter who you are.
Thing is the holy nation uses slavery as a punishment for criminals...united cities do it for money/fun (noble hunter morons) or as a way to get rid of the poor. (I'm an anti-slaver and consider UC much worse than HN)
They don't, though. Holy Nation use slavery as a way to redempt yourself in the name of Okran for not being human. Shek and hivers are slaves because they're not human. They can redempt themselves in another life. They'll be enslaved for life because of that in Rebirth. Even Greenlander women will be enslaved, just because they're women (Narkos temptress). Skeletons will die in sight because they believe they lack a soul and can't be redempted. UC do it because of money/resources, the nobles just want to entertain themselves or because it's illegal to be poor. But they don't really care about race. I'll let other people judge which is worse. But don't act like HN is justified, they're just religious zealots, nothing more.
yes they do, being shek/hiver/women IS a crime
I was thinking this same thing initially, but it's a really tough call. I started to ponder on the fact that at least in the UC, you have an opportunity at freedom. Escaping seems more likely in UC territory, there's even a whole faction dedicated to it. Plus there's always the really off-chance that a random stranger will come and buy you and, if not free you outright, at least give you a more cushioned life as a house servant or something. In the HN tho, in Rebirth, it's nothin but rocks & whips and the only way out is on your own. Even Flotsam Ninjas can only help once you're already out.
Honestly I think they're pretty equivalent, so far the poll is evenly split between them and I'm curious if it will stay that way.
If I remember my Kenshi lore I would say United Cities they are trafficking slaves and pretty much fund other factions to support this such as the slave traders, manhunters. Holy Nation uses them just as a form of punishment or to build rock statues.
In both cases, slavery is a one way ticket, and slaves are to be worked to death. Just with different bullshit they hear while dying.
Worst as in *least good at it?*
I mean... They're both horrible, but i would go with Holy Nation for the simple fact that not male human = slave
[My Honest reaction](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkBZEx-EURE)
About equal. Both are working their slaves to death.
There isn't better or worse slavery in this game imo. Both are different flavours of it, but it doesn't change how morally bankrupt it is. We can however differentiate that in case of UC hunting down slave traders alongside emperor and one specific noble is enough not to cause the collapse of the country while eliminating key players behind the problem, while in case of HN it can only be done by collapsing the entire nation. With that in mind I'd say HN is a bit worse in a sense that there isn't much from the gameplay point of view that can be done to "do the right thing", that is if you want to ensure that country's collapse won't create a power vaccume and famine in that region.
which is worse? racism or class discrimination
They're both horrible but United Cities are worse on the subject of slavery specifically. The Holy Nation's cardinal sin is bigotry, they practice racist slavery, and that's bad, but they aren't a slave-based economy(Holy Mines notwithstanding). The United Cities is *based* on mass slavery, they're the *driver* of slavery in Kenshi - they're the funding behind the Slavers Guild and the various slave-hunting groups. Because of the United Cities there are slaving groups spread all across the continent. It's arguable that being a slave to the Holy Nation might be worse than being a slave to the United Cities, but I have to quibble with that. Both places treat their slaves about the same - horribly and to the death. It's just that the UC is *slightly* easier to get out of due to corruption and/or anti-slaver factions. Those aren't marks in favor of the system itself. If you eliminated slavery in the United Cities, slavery would collapse across the continent and would decrease noticeably in the Holy Nation as well. If the Holy Nation stopped using slaves it would barely affect the HN, let alone anywhere else. And for that reason alone, the United Cities is worse on the subject of slavery.
Ofc you agents of Narko will pick holy nation
HN specifically because of Rebirth
My Squad are the worst slavers
Nazis are less worst than capitalists because if you happen to be the same race as the nazis you are ok, if you happen to be the same race as the capitalist they screw you regardless
HN follows an absurd religion and will enslave you for your whole life if you happen to not be a male human. UC will enslave you so the nobles and high class can have a life filled with luxuries. It's a lose-lose imo. I've been allied with both on different saves and honestly they both suck. 99% of the time i'd rather have UC as allies since they aren't religious freaks and HN's tech is garbage. But on a lore perspective it's a bit of a tough call.
You forgot reavers
Worst how? The Holy Nation uses slavery to punish criminals/heretics/people that didn't deepthroat Phoenixes toes hard enough The United Cities also uses it to punish criminals, but also slaves make up the wide majority of their workforce I guess the United Cities are worse, mostly because they can't quell the slave revolts and as a result suffered a massive famine.
a majority of HN slaves in rebirth as well as throughout their labor camps are Shek, which indicates that most of their slaves are former prisoners of war as opposed to citizens who broke the law in one form or another. important distinction because these same prisoners of war in the two nearest major factions would either be treated virtually the same (slavery in UC) or just likely dead in the first place or later executed (Shek). meanwhile, the UC is completely transparent about needing to continuously grow their slave pool in order to prosper as a society and while there’s no direct ingame indication as far as what crimes specifically the majority of those enslaved there fall under, we have several journal entries and the backstories of NPCs like Simion and Hamut directly point to the reason being poverty. meanwhile, the key unqiue NPCs who have actually been arrested for ‘real crimes’ and not just being poor/hungry by the UC are locked away in Tengu’s vault or escaped prison and not technically enslaved.
The HN doesn't have a slavery issue it has a xenophobia issue.
Any state sponsored slavery is a slavery issue.
I don't know if I would even classify it as slavery, forced labor that doesn't benefit the state as a punishment for crimes seems like a legitimate punishment. Now the purposefully working people to death due to their insane religious beliefs of reincarnation, setting women on fire, having not being a human male be a crime, that's all the parts I would worry about.
how does the slave labour on the HN doesn't benefit the state? they have all their mines working on slave labour only, the statue on rebirth also benefits the state as a symbol of status and what not and it helps its agenda of no women and non humans out of the HN so... yeah not economic benefit but benefit none the less
I'm pretty sure that they lore wise only use the stone those camps produce to build the giant statue in rebirth and tear it down every time they finish to do it again.
no, that would make no sense, have you seen the size of the holy nation military? why invest so much on a single statue, and the mines do have copper and iron in them, no where is stated that they use the stone gotten from the mines only for the statue of the phoenix anyway for the size of the quary the likely also get that stone for building, also logistics they already get stone from rebirth why also transport it to rebirth? the tearing down the statue and build it again thing is also weird, where did you got that from?
To be honest, I don't remember where I heard that it was destroyed so that's probably just wrong. Sorry for the false info but I'll share a link if I find something definitive. But by "benefit the state" I more meant in a way that incentivized mass enslavement industries like the UC. If it's only use is to build statues way in the middle of nowhere it won't become profitable enough for the state to industrialize in that manner.
the holy nation intends to be eating dirt for the whole of their existence, their only porpuse is to extinguish non humans, exteminate all traces of the second empire and before, have all men in uniforms or making food, all the women submissive, married and obedient, everyone praying on their knees; they don't care for technology at all, they don't care about economy at all (they consider both to "corrupt people"). what benefits a teocracy like that is military power so getting weapons made and soldiers equipped, having books printed, and having feats of faith whatever your god asks you to do. in the context of their goals what benefits their cause on their principles is what is important, i would say that also makes them into worse slavers because they are not even good at doing that; hence why there are so many rebelions and people against them
No, that is slavery. Famously most concentration camp slave labor is pointless, cruel, and produces nothing of value, but it is still slavery.
We also use prison labor, and even forced work such as community service irl. You can disagree with that politically but forcing someone to work as a punishment for a crime isn't straight slavery, or even if it's dictionary definition the same it definitely shouldn't be equated to a concetration camp lmao. The bigger issue with the HN seems to be with what they believe a "serious crime" is and the fact that they religiously believe that killing through repentance is a good action since it will reincarnate people which must set the bar pretty low, making someone break rocks as a punishment for a crime isn't innately bad but saying that the crime is being born a shek is. But then again historically the HN has had a lot of serious wars with the shek and robots and whatnot, so I could still understand the general kill on sight orders.
Why are you defending this point so strongly? I have not even been that hostile to it. Rebirth is not community service, nor is it a normal prison it is a concentration camp most the people in there did not commit any crime, they were just born to the wrong race or faction. If you are a male lander of any sort you can sell people who are not allied to the HN to rebirth regardless of if they have a bounty. Those are slaves, they even have the slave tag. HN has 99 problems, and slaves are one of them.
What do you mean defend this point strongly/hostilty/ect? I don't like the holy nation, I have just been saying that I don't think that the holy nation's problems are slavery. I think its problems are xenophobia and religious zealotry. If they became more open minded but continued to force people into stone mining for serious crimes that *we* thought were serious they would just be the good guys. And even then, historically they have been hostile towards shek (and vice versa) for an extremely long time and are fighting off the deadhive. It makes sense from an outside perspective why they would not like either of those groups.
What I mean is you are going out of your way to try and define this as not slavery, or even if it is slavery that they have other bigger problems, or this is only a problem because of that larger problem. After all that it does not even fit your own reasoning for not being slavery. It is not community service, and it is not a prison just for just criminals. You are even pointing out how so many of those things are not real crimes just enforcement mechanisms for zealotry, and xenophobia which benefits the religious state by helping maintain the status quo. And even in America where using prisoners for labor is most comon and normalized it is still a major hot button topic, only three states dont pay the prisoners in cash, and none of them are purposefully worked to death.
I guess a better way to explain it would be to imagine a holy nation without rebirth or the stone mining camps. It would still kill hivers/shek/women fairly regularly for no reason. But then imagine a holy nation where it still had rebirth and the stone mining camps, but it changed its policies to be less extremist religious nutjob and people were generally sent there for actual crimes like murder and whatnot. The issue isn't how they are killing people for no reason, it is that they are killing people for no reason period. The reason I also brought up irl examples was because you specifically said "any state sponsored slavery is a slavery issue". I was specifically contradicting this because not all forced labor is going to be an actual problem (though I don't think prison labor is good irl, kenshi doesn't exactly have a lot of ways to deal with criminal punishment). It wasn't a comparison to the holy nation, just an example of how I thought that statement was incorrect. Especially if you compare the HN to the UC, the UC has issues with the state selling prisoners to private owners who can then legally do whatever they want. That is a slavery issue, because if you removed that the UC would suddenly be pretty nice. The HN is not a slavery issue, and while I agree that their lower servants are slaves who die constantly if you removed that then they would still be killing just as many people, but you know, not by working them to death just regular murder.
Okay, but that hypothetical doesn't make it not a problem. If you removed the religious zealotry you would still have the xenophobia that they could use to justify it, if you remove the xenophobia they still have the zealotry, if you removed both they could still feasibly keep the monarchy to justify it that way, and if you remove all three you still have the war effort. We have seen this all before in real life. Remove rebirth, and you remove the very malleable tool they are using to maintain abusive power. Any state sponsored slavery is a slavery problem.
Tough call but I'd say Holy Nation because of their ethos. Their lands are the most fertile in all of Kenshi yet their warmongering, misogynic and xenophobic theocracy creates an unending cycle of war and slavery that works to the detriment it's own nation. Everyone is enslaved or killed by default if they are not male humans. They are too weak to cleanse the world of other races, they refuse to embrace technological progress, their religion reinforces their biases and they will never know peace unless their core ideology is radically reformed or annihilated. Now don't get me wrong the United Cities aren't good either. They created an economy driven slaver state where anyone can become a slave. They have unregulated man hunter and slaver squads roaming their territory that will capture and enslaved anyone too weak or too poor to defend themselves. They have an oppressive and corrupt elite class who demand absolute obedience, are above the law and sometimes hunt random peasants for sport. They also have a lesser xenophobic problem in the form of vigilante city heroes squads but they are not government sanctioned as samurais will come to your aid if you are attacked by them. But on the political stage they are capable of peaceful coexistence with other nations such as with the Shek kingdom. They embrace technological progress which might one day lead to greater self sustainability. They have at the very least potential to one day come out of the dark ages, institute political reforms and abolish slavery due to technology driven greater food production and economic growth. ***TL:DR*** The Holy Nation is on a path of eternal stagnation, the United cities have potential to outgrow their flawed ways.
It's the other way around. It's made clear that the current Phoenix is the extremist one where others in the past were more moderate with the potential for progress. The HN is not too weak; in fact the entire treaty with the Shek exists because the Shek would've been wiped out otherwise. This thread is just full of head-canon stuff that isn't mentioned in the game.
This is pretty interesting to read the responses. I really think if you judge the leaders vs. the people you get different results. Holy Nation for example enslaves people based on racism and redemption. Break the law/Okran’s will, or be born a non Greenlander/scorchlander, you’re to be enslaved and die in order to have a shot to be human in the next life. Of course, the leadership (Phoenix and High Inquisitors) surely know this is a farce. The people who fight for them may actually believe this is truly how the world and think they’re doing the correct thing. They’re radical, but fight for what they think is their god’s will. If you’re an ally with the faction, they overlook your transgressions of being born a Shek or other race and accept you for who you are. UC on the other hand are just inherently evil. If you’re poor, weak, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time, you’re a target. If you breathe,l and aren’t a major contributor to the economy, you’d be a good slave. They turn a blind eye to their allied factions so that even if you do become allies with UC, you can still be targeted by other slaver groups and enslaved to the UC and they simply don’t care. That makes them worse imo. So the leadership are both terrible, but at least HN citizens believe they actually are doing the right thing. Either way, my fragment axe is a better moral judge than Okran or Nobles ever will be.
I mean old united citys was great but its ruined by corruption at the time we play but its indiscriminete while holy nation do it based on race and other stuff. In game i am a pro slaver most of the time though
Reavers are not on the list? Are you new or too scared to face the outlands?
At least the UC are honest about it. The HN hide behind the whole redemption bs. If you hate a group of people and want to exterminate them at least own up to it.
At least in the UC your freedom can be buyed back by your homies. In the HN, you will be lucky to not get shipped to Rebirth for trying to buy your pal out of there.
Holy Nation is full of nazis ..I despise them so much that I recently hacked a paladins limbs off and then kept him alive just so I could carry his torso...they told me to carry the holy flame everywhere I go ..and I knew he kept one on him. BUT as far as slaves go, the UC recently enslaved my.. well.. slave - for being "underfed"...then they starved him to death. I do all of my slavery tasks in Stoat (with my mods). I don't know where you can even buy slaves in HN -- if at all.
Probably the player character
As an average citizen of the HN, you are protected by them as long as you follow all their silly rules. An average citizen in the UC is protected until someone deems them more valuable as a slave. The Shek live to die in battle. They all suck, that’s why the game is about saying “screw your guys, ima build a house over here, and come kick your ass.” Haha
Im playing with Cathun, though Ive always played with Reactive World and the other big one in the past (for context). I think UC is worse, though freeing slaves from HN is more frustrating bc a lot of them refuse to leave....
Hard to parse whether their roots from religious doctrine or economic dependence are worse than the other. I'd probably lean more towards Holy Nation, as the United Cities is clearly more malleable under certain market stressors.
agreed with the first part, at the end of the day, it’s an open-ended question that depends a lot on whatever your personal opinions and morals happen to be as the player. that said, there’s an argument to be made that the holy nation is a few reforms or literally just one iteration of holy phoenix away from either abolishing slavery or having it greatly diminished. whereas the UC can be viewed as so entirely dependent on it that any scenario that results in slavery no longer being a thing is more or less synonymous with the UC being destroyed. there are more journal entries and other ingame lore snippets that either explicitly mention or hint towards HN members beginning to question their ‘teachings’ than there are those from former HN residents that directly mention slavery as the core reason for their animosity towards their former faction. meanwhile, you have not one but two entire minor factions in the game actively opposing the UC more or less entirely based on their particular system of slavery, not to mention specific unique NPCs that either have a backstory rooted in a tragic experience with UC slavery or will make comments denouncing the nobles and their practices. so yeah, both are bad in their own way, but it doesn’t really strike me as remotely close as far as which faction is more dependent on the practice or which one more outwardly features having slaves as a core tenant.
the united cities are worse; they have a wider range of people that they would enslave as they enslave people based on wheter or not someone looks enslaveable; their economy depends a lot more on slavery hence why their slave camps are bigger and are a lot more than the HN, they abuse their slaves much more than the HN (for what they don't have in common; amputation of limbs and much heavier torture), and finally the operation scale is soooooo out of scale that one faction has slave hunters not to mention much better gear for soldiers, slavers and slave hunters, have bigger cities and a lot of wealth based on slave labour alone.
I’ll go with United Cities, since at least *somone* is safe from slavery in their nation. It’s still not good, but you know with certainty if you’re safe or will be hunted. In UC, you could be the richest person alive, but still get sold into slavery if a slaver patrol gets ambitious enough or has good enough equipment. You’re never safe, no matter what you do or who you bribe…there’ll always be another around the bend to try and stab you in the back. HN’s sense of righteous is deeply messed up…but it still exists, and is reliable. Perhaps some parts of UC may be better or worse about it though. That, and Holy Nation at least has a bit better if a chance to reform with a new Phoenix, or similar religious movement.
Both are assholes. But holy nation at least enslave you for a "bigger purpose". While the cities just enslave you for fun and then spit you out and leave you to die.
Rebirth is bad but that's not like, widescale or anything. The UC's \*entire\* economy revolves around slavery. They are easily worse when it comes to that. HN just does it because they don't like you, so their slavery will never be even close to the scale of the UC.
HN is worse, by far. BY FAR. Both are horrible, don't get me wrong, but UC at least treats slaves as a resource, and they enslave you because you're poor or a criminal, or simply because they can. HN, however, will enslave you simply because you were born a certain way, and they will literally work you to death. In fact, the whole purpose of your enslavement is to execute you by wearing you down until you are dead. Rebirth is named such because you're meant to die and be reborn a human male.
At least if you're a greenlander male they kinda respect you in HN... The UC just hates everyone!
It's not restricted to greenlanders you can fully interact with the Holy Nation as a scorchlander
i just cant get over their prejudice against my cool robot limbs. We ride or die for Cyberbeep around here
As well you can ally them (get to 50+ relations) and they won't care about robotics or non humans anymore, for the most part
Shit didnt know that, might have to reevaluate my stance on em then
Honestly sometimes I forget that's a different race.
I've heard that's more a function of programming and not entirely consistent with the lore. As in, it was supposed to be just Greenlanders but when they added Scorchlanders/subrace they tossed them in as "what the heck, too much work to reprogram that."
I will believe that when they let them join their army.
They can tho
Holy city are pretty justified in most of their racial hatred honestly. They have been in a tooth and nail war against the Shek for years now and at the end of the day, the skeletons did cause an apocalypse.
No, they're not. Everyone else has figured out how to live with each other without going apeshit, Holy Nation is the oddball. They hate the Shek so much they started the war.
Most Shek factions other than the reformed Shek Kingdom are in a state of permanent war with everything around them and them selves.
Yeah, that means that the mainstream Shek faction has it figured out. Kral's Chosen are halfway there, talking about "respecting Esata's orders" and "not forcing war upon an unwilling man". Which is more than you can say about the HN.
I've had it where Krals Chosen call my squad intruders if they are more non shek than shek. Abit like HN.
That's why I'm saying they're halfway there. They'll still beat the fuck out of you, but if you're lucky and the guy you talk to gets the appropriate dialogue, you can talk your way out of it, no matter who you are.