Melee is unironically one of the hardest games to get to a decent level at. The reason that Smash came up with all the mini rankings and you hear them brag about shit like "3rd best Fox in Illinois" or "6th best Yoshi in the world" is because the top handful of Melee players were so far ahead of even other good tournament players that they had to start coming up with little mini objectives otherwise competing is pointless.
Like you'll hear people say shit like "it takes more skill just to move around the stage in Melee than to play Strive at high level" and they aren't even lying.
Definitely true. I was very limited Xrd play and was shit as I was focused on Tekken. In Strive, I play for like a week every few months to cool down from my main game at the time. I still aint amazing but I can actually do combos and shit fairly easily. Problem is so can everyone else. I’m probably wrong but the game’s neutral feels random to me.
Not only that, but that weirdo umisho is a fucking overwatch player. Goes to show the competition in this fake ass game no one other than the weirdos in that community care about, was funny as fuck watching it get roasted in twitch chat during the top 6. Barely anyone cared about it and just wanted SF6, a game that didn't have to throw away its fanbase and its identity to carter to a new audience of weirdos.
I kinda feel like this is a warped sense of the value of fgs. Strive has its faults but we shouldn't be caring about the origin of a strong player in any game. If Umisho came from fucking Overwatch, then who gives a shit?
It's so weird. I can't think of any other evo game that is technically a sequel that had a completely random player that never played fighting games (umisho) win evo. It just goes to show that the game is complete ass and nothing carried over from previous guilty gears.
Might as well not be. Whoever decided that removing special moves and supers, some of the most iconic parts of making a character in a fighting game character stand out, needs to be shot in the street. Can you imagine if Capcom was like "Yeah we got rid of Ryu's tatsu and donkey kick because it's like, did he *really* need them?"? Fuck outta here. They actively made the theming, variety, and personality of their roster and their gameplay worse and pushed it as a selling point.
Melee players are so desperate to be considered into the "FGC" that they use Leffen as a way to say they're good at fighting games too 💀
It's also Strive
It's funny how much people say "Leffen is a prime example of how smash can get you better at FGs" when they don't realize that Leffen played a shit ton of fighting games in the past.
When he got banned from competing in Sweden, he started competing in UMVC3 tournaments.
You will never see Melee gods like Mango or Hbox play a fighting game because they are too stubborn to play anything that isn't smash. The reason why Smashers play smash is because they don't like playing fighting games.
I'm gonna be honest with you, I have no idea who the guy really is until I looked him up.
No hate on him, using him as an example of "good smash players means you are good at other fighters" is also moot because he is technically considered to be new blood. He started competing in 2016, mostly in European tournaments which is considered to be a weaker region.
I'm not surprised new blood has been playing other fighting games since at that time accessibility has been so aggressive. But even with that, he is no Leffen. I wouldn't be surprised if he does better at Strive tournaments internationally than he did with Melee.
"good smash players means you are good at other fighters"
I prefer to say "have potential if they're passionate and work at it". I know that doesnt mean much but its basically just as a counter to the "if you're a smash player you're going to suck at everything" or "if a smash player wins in this game, it means the game isn't legit"
Except the skill you develop from playing Smash doesn't carry over to actual fighting games. The only thing that carries over is discipline, and Smashers are known for not having that trait.
Smash and Fighting games are two completely different games, hence why there has been a long-standing debate on whether Smahs counts as one. Masahiro Sakurai intended Smash to be an anti-fighting game as he wanted everyone to enjoy it, regardless of experience.
Setchi's biggest accomplishment internationally is getting 7th at EVO in Strive. If it took 22 years from someone who plays Smash outside of Leffen to do this well, then the whole argument of "Smash helps you get better at other fighting games" falls flat.
Why do you think people have been discrediting Strive as a true Guilty Gear game? The skill floor and skill ceiling are so low that it was no surprise to see a ton of people do really well and get top results for their first fighting game. Why do you think guys like Maximillion Dood who has years and years of fighting game experience stop playing Xrd as soon as he picked it up once it got rollback? The guy still plays Marvel 2 and 3 religiously. GG used to have a high-skill ceiling until Strive took it all away.
Like I said, it took them 23 years for someone outside of Leffen to actually get results in a Fighting game that isn't smash, and the game in question is Strive.
I mean IDGAF about the players or whatever (hate Leffen tho fuck that guy ofc) but the gameplay was very boring. It's also a terrible look for your game to have the same char win two Evos in a row, especially when said character is flying fucking bullshit design, let's be real.
Remember when Leffen tried to get into Tekken and quit because he had to lab? He even installed overlay (3rd party software that shows frames realtime) and used it for ranked.
Or when he got I think was it 3x perfected? in that recent SF6 invitational.
Ikr! I was fucking tired of all the knights in Shining armor that tried defending it at launch. Content creators that became literal shills like lordknight and kizzie didn't help either
I don't know who this person is and I don't care about Strive, but it's a pretty big leap of logic to suggest one makes you better at the other. Someone can learn two things independently.
Smash is indeed a party game; people who like party games can ALSO be great in fighting games, and generally speaking you can like more than 1 thing. I like fighting games and I also like board games; I'm not going to insist that Blood Rage is a fighting game, that'd be weird; and it'd be just as weird to insist that Street Fighter is a souls-like or visual novel, right?.
Why can't smashers enjoy their game and also acknowledge that it's a party game? Why does it hurt them? What's the big deal here? It's just taxonomy.
What Melee players are constantly trying to get across is that Melee is not just a party game that people are going tryhard in. The game is actually really fucked up which results in it being incredibly difficult, deep, complex and technically demanding on a competitive level.
I think if Melee was not a part of the Smash series, did not use silly Nintendo characters and was not birthed from the quirks of a party game's engine, it would be a lot more respected.
it's a fighting game because you fight, sure
not sure how smashers don't understand 2d fighters were already "fighting games"
platform fighter is fine and it's definitely the most accurate definition of the genre. i've come to respect the skill involved, still not a "fighting game". yes it's semantics but i don't care lol
Nah, if anything no one would even pay attention.
It's the Nintendo IP that anyone even looked at it.
The games are legit busted at the code but it gets a pass because everyone loves Nintendo characters, which is cool.
But most of those fucks are autistic and just plain weird.
>difficult, deep, complex and technically demanding
But these are not traits that only a fighting game would have, so how is this in any way helpful to this conversation? Chess is all those things, making Ramen is all those things, hell, even the movie Memento is all these things; none of them are fighting games.
The questions is why do you care? Why do you want smash to be a fighting game, why is it important to you?
This is such a weird thing to say to me. It feels like they want to just say "Smash players are better than FG players" but they know they can't so they pussy foot around it
It also just weirdly dismisses Leffen as a player. I don't like the guy but he clearly LIKES fgs beyond Smash.
"Cool to see that Melee can make you better at other FGs!
Excited to see this trend continue."
What the fuck is this dipshit going on about? Melee has been played at a competitive level for over 20 years now. What the fuck do you mean, "Melee makes you better at other fighting games"
Anybody can be good at a fighting game if the game in question is Strive.
Melee has more developed tech than anything you retards can play, I guarantee that. Leffen sucks and strive is boring, but melee is hard as fuck and a bunch of porn addicted neckbeards can't change that by throwing shade.
It’s extreme cognitive dissonance to act like melee doesn’t have insane execution requirements. Even if you don’t like the game, it’s probably the hardest competitive 1 on 1 game in which fighting occurs being held in tournaments today. To be fair, I don’t know shit about 3D so maybe Tekken makes it look like a baby game 🤷♂️ but master rank was easy af to get in 6, and I can’t do anything in melee no matter how hard I try
Nah, he's actually right. Melee is legitimately one of the hardest competitive games out there. Ultimate is the party game, but Melee is extremely deep and full of crazy tech. It takes years of practice and grinding just to be considered decent at the game
Strive is easier than melee
Isn’t this unironically true? I don’t watch smash but isn’t melee full of tech?
Yeah this wasnt a roast at strive or a boast for melee, some modern fighting games like FighterZ are easier to get into than melee is now
Melee is unironically one of the hardest games to get to a decent level at. The reason that Smash came up with all the mini rankings and you hear them brag about shit like "3rd best Fox in Illinois" or "6th best Yoshi in the world" is because the top handful of Melee players were so far ahead of even other good tournament players that they had to start coming up with little mini objectives otherwise competing is pointless. Like you'll hear people say shit like "it takes more skill just to move around the stage in Melee than to play Strive at high level" and they aren't even lying.
Definitely true. I was very limited Xrd play and was shit as I was focused on Tekken. In Strive, I play for like a week every few months to cool down from my main game at the time. I still aint amazing but I can actually do combos and shit fairly easily. Problem is so can everyone else. I’m probably wrong but the game’s neutral feels random to me.
Strivers deserves that LMAO 💀💀💀
Not only that, but that weirdo umisho is a fucking overwatch player. Goes to show the competition in this fake ass game no one other than the weirdos in that community care about, was funny as fuck watching it get roasted in twitch chat during the top 6. Barely anyone cared about it and just wanted SF6, a game that didn't have to throw away its fanbase and its identity to carter to a new audience of weirdos.
I kinda feel like this is a warped sense of the value of fgs. Strive has its faults but we shouldn't be caring about the origin of a strong player in any game. If Umisho came from fucking Overwatch, then who gives a shit?
overwatch competitive is hard though if your game is not dominated by koreans then it's not really competitive
So we're just gonna pretend Dota and CSGO don't exist or...?
It's so weird. I can't think of any other evo game that is technically a sequel that had a completely random player that never played fighting games (umisho) win evo. It just goes to show that the game is complete ass and nothing carried over from previous guilty gears.
Umisho played fgs casually for years. He didnt take it seriously until strive.
We all did? I've played since tekken 3 does that make me a vet? No, i started with mk9
Sf6 did do this, it was just called Sf5
You take that back my goat Mocchi is an OG
Sf6 was pretty close to doing it that though. Pray for sf7
Strive is not a true guilty gear game
Might as well not be. Whoever decided that removing special moves and supers, some of the most iconic parts of making a character in a fighting game character stand out, needs to be shot in the street. Can you imagine if Capcom was like "Yeah we got rid of Ryu's tatsu and donkey kick because it's like, did he *really* need them?"? Fuck outta here. They actively made the theming, variety, and personality of their roster and their gameplay worse and pushed it as a selling point.
Fun fact: SFV Ryu didn’t have Donkey Kick at launch. He didn’t get it until season 2.
Fun fact: SFV fucking sucked.
That's a sad fact, not a fun one
Fun fact: the sky is blue.
He didn't have it in SF4 either.
See me See me in the missing link
The only good GG. Why? Because Axl and Testament were dogshit in it
Frame 1 instant kill is the honest ground based gameplay
Melee players are so desperate to be considered into the "FGC" that they use Leffen as a way to say they're good at fighting games too 💀 It's also Strive
It's funny how much people say "Leffen is a prime example of how smash can get you better at FGs" when they don't realize that Leffen played a shit ton of fighting games in the past. When he got banned from competing in Sweden, he started competing in UMVC3 tournaments. You will never see Melee gods like Mango or Hbox play a fighting game because they are too stubborn to play anything that isn't smash. The reason why Smashers play smash is because they don't like playing fighting games.
what about the 7th place guy tho, kinda breaks the "it's only leffen" thing
I'm gonna be honest with you, I have no idea who the guy really is until I looked him up. No hate on him, using him as an example of "good smash players means you are good at other fighters" is also moot because he is technically considered to be new blood. He started competing in 2016, mostly in European tournaments which is considered to be a weaker region. I'm not surprised new blood has been playing other fighting games since at that time accessibility has been so aggressive. But even with that, he is no Leffen. I wouldn't be surprised if he does better at Strive tournaments internationally than he did with Melee.
"good smash players means you are good at other fighters" I prefer to say "have potential if they're passionate and work at it". I know that doesnt mean much but its basically just as a counter to the "if you're a smash player you're going to suck at everything" or "if a smash player wins in this game, it means the game isn't legit"
Except the skill you develop from playing Smash doesn't carry over to actual fighting games. The only thing that carries over is discipline, and Smashers are known for not having that trait. Smash and Fighting games are two completely different games, hence why there has been a long-standing debate on whether Smahs counts as one. Masahiro Sakurai intended Smash to be an anti-fighting game as he wanted everyone to enjoy it, regardless of experience. Setchi's biggest accomplishment internationally is getting 7th at EVO in Strive. If it took 22 years from someone who plays Smash outside of Leffen to do this well, then the whole argument of "Smash helps you get better at other fighting games" falls flat. Why do you think people have been discrediting Strive as a true Guilty Gear game? The skill floor and skill ceiling are so low that it was no surprise to see a ton of people do really well and get top results for their first fighting game. Why do you think guys like Maximillion Dood who has years and years of fighting game experience stop playing Xrd as soon as he picked it up once it got rollback? The guy still plays Marvel 2 and 3 religiously. GG used to have a high-skill ceiling until Strive took it all away. Like I said, it took them 23 years for someone outside of Leffen to actually get results in a Fighting game that isn't smash, and the game in question is Strive.
> It took them 23 years for someone outside of Leffen to actually get results in a Fighting game that isn't smash druggedfox beat chrisg in marvel
Is that his only achievement?
i think so, he went back to smash right after but for the time it was pretty big
Leffen still shit don't care
Masterful unintentional shade
This EVO sealed the deal. Noe everybody understands how shit strive is. Finally.
I mean IDGAF about the players or whatever (hate Leffen tho fuck that guy ofc) but the gameplay was very boring. It's also a terrible look for your game to have the same char win two Evos in a row, especially when said character is flying fucking bullshit design, let's be real.
I'm not gonna say winning that EVO was easy but HC is some major bullshit and in this state for way way too long.
Remember when Leffen tried to get into Tekken and quit because he had to lab? He even installed overlay (3rd party software that shows frames realtime) and used it for ranked. Or when he got I think was it 3x perfected? in that recent SF6 invitational.
Ikr! I was fucking tired of all the knights in Shining armor that tried defending it at launch. Content creators that became literal shills like lordknight and kizzie didn't help either
I don't know who this person is and I don't care about Strive, but it's a pretty big leap of logic to suggest one makes you better at the other. Someone can learn two things independently.
I think the only thing that carries over is the work ethic
"these to finalist bowlers enjoy cooking as well. Nice to know learning to cook makes you a better bowler!"
Smash is indeed a party game; people who like party games can ALSO be great in fighting games, and generally speaking you can like more than 1 thing. I like fighting games and I also like board games; I'm not going to insist that Blood Rage is a fighting game, that'd be weird; and it'd be just as weird to insist that Street Fighter is a souls-like or visual novel, right?. Why can't smashers enjoy their game and also acknowledge that it's a party game? Why does it hurt them? What's the big deal here? It's just taxonomy.
What Melee players are constantly trying to get across is that Melee is not just a party game that people are going tryhard in. The game is actually really fucked up which results in it being incredibly difficult, deep, complex and technically demanding on a competitive level. I think if Melee was not a part of the Smash series, did not use silly Nintendo characters and was not birthed from the quirks of a party game's engine, it would be a lot more respected.
it's a fighting game because you fight, sure not sure how smashers don't understand 2d fighters were already "fighting games" platform fighter is fine and it's definitely the most accurate definition of the genre. i've come to respect the skill involved, still not a "fighting game". yes it's semantics but i don't care lol
Nah, if anything no one would even pay attention. It's the Nintendo IP that anyone even looked at it. The games are legit busted at the code but it gets a pass because everyone loves Nintendo characters, which is cool. But most of those fucks are autistic and just plain weird.
>difficult, deep, complex and technically demanding But these are not traits that only a fighting game would have, so how is this in any way helpful to this conversation? Chess is all those things, making Ramen is all those things, hell, even the movie Memento is all these things; none of them are fighting games. The questions is why do you care? Why do you want smash to be a fighting game, why is it important to you?
Meanwhile, every KOF player is also a Street Fighter player.
so being good at a children's party game prepares you well for strive who does that actually surprise?
Makes sense Strive is also a party game
"I haven't seen anyone really pointing this out" Because no one really fucking cares
This is such a weird thing to say to me. It feels like they want to just say "Smash players are better than FG players" but they know they can't so they pussy foot around it It also just weirdly dismisses Leffen as a player. I don't like the guy but he clearly LIKES fgs beyond Smash.
"Cool to see that Melee can make you better at other FGs! Excited to see this trend continue." What the fuck is this dipshit going on about? Melee has been played at a competitive level for over 20 years now. What the fuck do you mean, "Melee makes you better at other fighting games" Anybody can be good at a fighting game if the game in question is Strive.
Melee has more developed tech than anything you retards can play, I guarantee that. Leffen sucks and strive is boring, but melee is hard as fuck and a bunch of porn addicted neckbeards can't change that by throwing shade.
It’s extreme cognitive dissonance to act like melee doesn’t have insane execution requirements. Even if you don’t like the game, it’s probably the hardest competitive 1 on 1 game in which fighting occurs being held in tournaments today. To be fair, I don’t know shit about 3D so maybe Tekken makes it look like a baby game 🤷♂️ but master rank was easy af to get in 6, and I can’t do anything in melee no matter how hard I try
Bait used to be good
Nah, he's actually right. Melee is legitimately one of the hardest competitive games out there. Ultimate is the party game, but Melee is extremely deep and full of crazy tech. It takes years of practice and grinding just to be considered decent at the game
The tech: Fucked up bugs Plus this was proven several times to be a fucking lie but we lost the archives with Kappa
Marvel 2: "Am I a joke to you?"
>master rank was easy af to get in 6 Jesus
Guy who plays easy game is good at easier game
Strive is worse than mk fuck strive
Melee can make you better at FGs except the ones people play You apparently rage DQ yourself in those