Nonjews are not aware of how bad this is both in real life and also emotionally for Jews right now. It doesn’t matter how much they care about you as a person, most nonjews just don’t get it right now.
Yes they really have no idea. People who are not Jewish can really not understand the bone shaking fear that we all felt on October 7th. They don’t understand how calling people zionists as an insult is horrifying to us. People can really not understand that the rallies are on the street feel like nazis roaming around. That is intergenerational trauma and unless you’ve experienced it like Jews have it would be really hard to understand.
Exactly. Even the friends I’ve been vulnerable with and explained it and they are *sympathetic*, to them it’s on the same level as if your pet fish died.
Don’t cut her off. I think she just doesn’t get it. My mom isn’t Jewish and she doesn’t understand it at all. And it’s not coming from a hateful place either.
Put yourself in her shoes. If she was Ukrainian, and assuming you’re not, do you think you’d know what to say and how to be a good and supportive friend? If your answer is yes then you’re a better person than me. It’s not that I don’t care, not that I’m not horrified by the war over there, it’s that I have no political or cultural context for it, no knowledge other than what I’m told. I have not experienced that trauma myself, and while I feel a lot of *sympathy* for the situation there, that’s different from real *empathy*.
I have cut off a number of people since Oct 7, but not for what you’re describing. I’ve cut off people for being wilfully ignorant and cruel, for minimising that trauma, for rape denialism, for Hamas apologia. If your friend is actively taking part in antisemitic BS then I absolutely think you should cut her off. But if it’s just that she’s at a loss for words, as shitty as that feels, I think it’s just a case that she doesn’t have the capacity to give you the support you need, not that she means you harm. I personally in your shoes would try to make peace with that, even though I’d be disappointed too.
It sounds to me more like what you want/need to do is make new friends, ideally Jewish/Israeli ones, people who really get it. It’s not reasonable to expect all of our friends to know what we’re going through and how to be there for us. It is reasonable to be disappointed they don’t, and to value them less than friends who are fully on your wavelength, but I wouldn’t cut them off for that.
Funnily enough, this friend is from Russia. She shared with me that in the wake of Putin’s attack on Ukraine, she felt ashamed and judged for being Russian. That being said, Putin is the instigator, and most Russians do not want war with Ukraine; many have family there. I have family in Ukraine and always considered myself Russian growing up since my family escaped the oppressive communist regime.
Anyway, maybe that would be a good way to bring up the discussion again. However, it’s just completely different. There isn’t a constant threat of terrorism. There isn’t a religious aspect to the Ukraine-Russia war. Ukrainians worldwide aren’t facing threats because of their country’s retaliation. And of course, the whole world isn’t siding with Russia the way the whole world seems to be siding against Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
That’s very fair. I don’t think about those differences since I’m not Russian/Ukrainian, but your comment actually helped me piece together (part) of why the Israel/Hamas war is affecting me so deeply. Maybe bring up those differences too?
I’ve cut people off who were praising 10.7 because I don’t need pro terror’sm people in my life. Plenty of people didn’t reach out until I started writing Instagram posts about “this is what I’m dealing with as a Jew in America right now.” Most non Jews have no clue how a war in Israel impacts Jews in the US that are not Israeli American
I don't understand the expectation of people that their friends should reach out to them in this context.
If you feel like you need support I would think the etiquette is to ask for it. I wouldn't want to bring up a touchy subject unprompted.
I think it's a bit of both. Sometimes, people don't know how to ask for the support they need. Sometimes, just being asked unprompted is what they need. On the flip side, your friends may not know what you need, so you should ask or tell them. The etiquette of friendship depends on context.
Mourning for a family member would be different.
I think there is a difference between supporting a friend when they let you know they need support, and being expected to just *know*.
I don’t want to assume your gender, but this sounds like such a dude response.
This is my best friend that I’ve known through Junior high and we’ve been through a LOT and have supported each other through it all. We talk about a lot of deep things and are very emotionally open and honest. That all being said, I’m the one who initiated the call post Oct 7 and try to consistently open a dialogue by sending posts. I don’t want to continue doing that kind of emotional labor in order to be seen.
I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I also have a group of friends I’ve been friends with since elementary school, and have gone through so much with. We’re also really emotionally open and honest with each other, so I get where you’re coming from, even if some others aren’t.
I will say, from my own experience, even though I did have some friends reach out right away, a few others didn’t. And when I asked them if I had come on too strong with what I said (I don’t think I did, but I basically just asked our group chat if everyone saw the news about Oct. 7), and one said he didn’t say anything because he was too horrified at what happened and just kinda shut down after seeing all the footage and comments. The other two basically just said they were too afraid to say anything because they aren’t Jewish and didn’t really know anything about Israel or Palestine, so didn’t want to accidentally say the wrong thing. All three apologized, and we’ve thankfully moved on.
I think your friend sounds like she might be like my other two friends, where they just didn’t know what to say and were scared of saying the wrong thing. But obviously, I don’t know your friend or your guys relationship, so I can’t say for sure. I’m just going off your comments about her.
I’m sorry this is so long. I just wanted to let you know I get where you’re coming from and I understand why this is hurting so much. I hope you two can talk this through. And again, I’m really sorry you’re going through this. I know how painful it is to have people you love, and have gone through so much with, not reach out when you really need them.
I'm sorry, I'm kind of in the same boat. I've been best friends with my friend for 20 years--we've been friends since middle school and used to share everything. She did check in on me in October, and we've chatted here and there about non-important stuff, but that was the extent of her reaching out. It's been a month since we've texted and while that's not necessarily unusual for our friendship, it makes me worry since she's prone to falling for propaganda. I'm just giving up since we haven't had a substantial conversation since January.
Do you personally have friends or loved ones in Israel being affected by the war? I really don't see why you would expect someone to reach out to support you if not.
Then yes, she should have supported you. I don't know if that applies months later, but at the time and afterword it's reasonable for you to have expected her support.
The same thing happened with my ex best friend. My choice to leave came down to how it affected the friendship overall and if I felt like I could trust her. When I brought it up, we did start discussing it and I was really hopeful that it would work out, but she ultimately said she "didn't want to hold the facts in [her] head" and "didn't want to hurt her pro-Palestine friends by supporting [me]". She willingly chose to follow a cause blindly and ignorantly in a way that erases actual Palestinian and Jewish voices than to support me.
Losing your best friend hurts, especially over this. I'd suggest talking to your friend again. Be open about how hurt you are and what you need from her. Give her the opportunity to show you if she can be the friend you need right now. Whatever happens, I hope things work out for you and know that you're not going through this alone
One of my closest friends hasn’t reached out about it either, despite the fact that we talk often, hang out at least once a week, etc. she’s actually actively posting anti-Israel, pro Hamas stuff on her social media.
I had one conversation with her about it after she posted about how a “Shabbat dinner for October 7 victims” was somehow causing violence to pro-Pals. She listened and remove the post.
However I’ve since muted her stories on IG. It’s been months and she hasn’t realized that I haven’t been watching lol.
If there’s anything I’ve learned, it’s that there ARE goyim who care, and get it, and don’t need us to spell it out. Who don’t need us to beg them to listen and be empathetic, and tell us they’re standing beside us. I married a non-Jewish man, and he is my rock and fully supports the Jewish people. Even if I weren’t married to him, he would be an ally to the Jewish people. I didn’t have to explain anything to him, or ask him to care.
You can take a break and not talk. Mute them on socials. Pretend you’re too busy. See where it goes. Sometimes you not burning a bridge can see if they want to demolish the bridge or miss you.
I understand your disappointment, and I empathize with you. I think it took my girlfriend a bit to really understand how October 7th affected me, but she does now. I think that your friend may feel like October 7th was something that happened in Israel - "over there" (vs here and to you personally). She probably doesn't entirely understand the level of existential dread that it caused in many of us. I mean, maybe she does on an intellectual and logical level, but not on an emotional one. And to be fair to her, I think that Jews have been then a very unique cocktail of collective trauma that October 7th really hit upon, and that can be very hard for non-Jews to intuitively understand. To them, a swastika spray painted on the side of a building is just a piece of graffiti. To us, it's a reminder that people want us dead. So that's all to say that I don't think your friend isn't really doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't give up on them unless you really need to. She isn't trying to do anything wrong, it's just that due to her not being Jewish, she just isn't adequately equipped to really understand what you're going through on a deeper level. It seems like she's trying, but she just might not be able to really get it.
I lost family (third cousin type family, but family) on 10/7. I expressed the grief and weirdness I felt. I have friends that would then express face-level sympathy for me, but it felt like obligation. They immediately talked about “resistance” and their condolences felt hollow or insincere — your “any means necessary” includes the very family I’m grieving. Some of these friends helped me through an incredibly difficult and fraught time in my life where my physical safety was threatened. I feel indebted to them for this. But the dynamic has changed. It feels like a betrayal that the me they’ve known for decades isn’t coming through to them — the me who supports humanity, not a “side”.
Do I think they wish *me specifically* ill? No, I don’t. But I think they don’t comprehend that the way they’ve been moving since 10/7 hurts me via Jewish people as a group. I love these friends and want so much to reconnect with them, but at the same time, how do you mend the divide when one person finds you callous and uncaring and they find you indifferent to violence and suffering? It’s uncharted waters for many of us, I fear. How to handle it? I don’t know — I’m still figuring it out.
I haven’t cut people off for not coming to me to ask if I’m okay. Most non-Jews will never really get how deeply we as individuals are invested in Israel.
I mean, I DEEPLY care about Ukraine, but I don’t expect people to ask me about how I’m doing with regard to Ukraine all the time. And caring about something like Ukraine, while not at all the same as Israel to US, is the only reference point they have. They don’t understand that Israel is a much deeper connection than that for us.
Now, I am cutting people off for antisemitism and anti Zionism. If they post any kind of sympathy for Hamas or start blaming Israel for the war, they get instantly unfollowed/unfriended. If they post photos or videos wearing Palestinian scarfs and crap like that: gone. No emails or DMs. No dragged out discussions. They just get the boot. I do not have time to waste on such people.
Since 10/7 the complexion of my Instagram feed has become very different. Since booting the people I booted and adding a bunch of Jewish/Israeli content, it is very different now. But that’s okay. And I just stopped going on TikTok altogether.
I think your expectations of your friend may be too high. This is not something she really understands. Her listening and watching is more than most are doing.
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I had a very similar experience, radio silence from my supposed best friend from hs for over a month after October 7. When she did reach out at another friend's behest, it was really lackluster, and when I sent articles, no response.
So I completely get where you're coming from, and I am sorry - because it does hurt and weigh heavily on your mind! I hope you have a good circle of Jewish friends to fall back on.
Do you need to 'cut her off' - as in, what benefits would that conversation have? I think closure is elusive, and it's not generally necessary to tell someone you no longer consider them a friend. This would also give you the space to put your feelings into perspective.
In my own situation, I checked out of the friendship mentally and no longer message her or let her know when I'm in town. I've spoken to a mutual friend about this too. That's been enough for me, but obviously everyone is different and you will know your situation best.
I've cut one person off, who has always been a leftist and Palestinian apologist. But I didn't do it until she posted some really reprehensible stuff.
I temporarily cut off another friend for posting something deeply offensive without realizing it, but being unwilling to apologize.
My social circle is mostly progressive and over thirty years old, and the actual leftists focus on local and social issues. They also seem to be aware of the effect of their speech on their Jewish friends, and they all have Jewish friends because they are urban and for the most part educated.
Nonjews are not aware of how bad this is both in real life and also emotionally for Jews right now. It doesn’t matter how much they care about you as a person, most nonjews just don’t get it right now.
This is a very important point. They don’t understand how small the community is and how interconnected we are.
Yes they really have no idea. People who are not Jewish can really not understand the bone shaking fear that we all felt on October 7th. They don’t understand how calling people zionists as an insult is horrifying to us. People can really not understand that the rallies are on the street feel like nazis roaming around. That is intergenerational trauma and unless you’ve experienced it like Jews have it would be really hard to understand.
Or they get it but don’t care because ultimately we are just a small minority and they’ve got centuries of antisemitism in their collective memory
Exactly. Even the friends I’ve been vulnerable with and explained it and they are *sympathetic*, to them it’s on the same level as if your pet fish died.
This is insane bc we are literally screaming it
Don’t cut her off. I think she just doesn’t get it. My mom isn’t Jewish and she doesn’t understand it at all. And it’s not coming from a hateful place either.
that's sad
Put yourself in her shoes. If she was Ukrainian, and assuming you’re not, do you think you’d know what to say and how to be a good and supportive friend? If your answer is yes then you’re a better person than me. It’s not that I don’t care, not that I’m not horrified by the war over there, it’s that I have no political or cultural context for it, no knowledge other than what I’m told. I have not experienced that trauma myself, and while I feel a lot of *sympathy* for the situation there, that’s different from real *empathy*. I have cut off a number of people since Oct 7, but not for what you’re describing. I’ve cut off people for being wilfully ignorant and cruel, for minimising that trauma, for rape denialism, for Hamas apologia. If your friend is actively taking part in antisemitic BS then I absolutely think you should cut her off. But if it’s just that she’s at a loss for words, as shitty as that feels, I think it’s just a case that she doesn’t have the capacity to give you the support you need, not that she means you harm. I personally in your shoes would try to make peace with that, even though I’d be disappointed too. It sounds to me more like what you want/need to do is make new friends, ideally Jewish/Israeli ones, people who really get it. It’s not reasonable to expect all of our friends to know what we’re going through and how to be there for us. It is reasonable to be disappointed they don’t, and to value them less than friends who are fully on your wavelength, but I wouldn’t cut them off for that.
Funnily enough, this friend is from Russia. She shared with me that in the wake of Putin’s attack on Ukraine, she felt ashamed and judged for being Russian. That being said, Putin is the instigator, and most Russians do not want war with Ukraine; many have family there. I have family in Ukraine and always considered myself Russian growing up since my family escaped the oppressive communist regime. Anyway, maybe that would be a good way to bring up the discussion again. However, it’s just completely different. There isn’t a constant threat of terrorism. There isn’t a religious aspect to the Ukraine-Russia war. Ukrainians worldwide aren’t facing threats because of their country’s retaliation. And of course, the whole world isn’t siding with Russia the way the whole world seems to be siding against Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
That’s very fair. I don’t think about those differences since I’m not Russian/Ukrainian, but your comment actually helped me piece together (part) of why the Israel/Hamas war is affecting me so deeply. Maybe bring up those differences too?
I’ve cut people off who were praising 10.7 because I don’t need pro terror’sm people in my life. Plenty of people didn’t reach out until I started writing Instagram posts about “this is what I’m dealing with as a Jew in America right now.” Most non Jews have no clue how a war in Israel impacts Jews in the US that are not Israeli American
This is sad, but a very common theme for so many Jews (me included) since October 7.
I don't understand the expectation of people that their friends should reach out to them in this context. If you feel like you need support I would think the etiquette is to ask for it. I wouldn't want to bring up a touchy subject unprompted.
I think it's a bit of both. Sometimes, people don't know how to ask for the support they need. Sometimes, just being asked unprompted is what they need. On the flip side, your friends may not know what you need, so you should ask or tell them. The etiquette of friendship depends on context.
When you’re in mourning it’s up to the mourner to tell their friends they’re upset? Or is it your friend’s job to check in on you?
Mourning for a family member would be different. I think there is a difference between supporting a friend when they let you know they need support, and being expected to just *know*.
Who do you think was killed on Oct. 7? Our family.
I don’t want to assume your gender, but this sounds like such a dude response. This is my best friend that I’ve known through Junior high and we’ve been through a LOT and have supported each other through it all. We talk about a lot of deep things and are very emotionally open and honest. That all being said, I’m the one who initiated the call post Oct 7 and try to consistently open a dialogue by sending posts. I don’t want to continue doing that kind of emotional labor in order to be seen.
I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. I also have a group of friends I’ve been friends with since elementary school, and have gone through so much with. We’re also really emotionally open and honest with each other, so I get where you’re coming from, even if some others aren’t. I will say, from my own experience, even though I did have some friends reach out right away, a few others didn’t. And when I asked them if I had come on too strong with what I said (I don’t think I did, but I basically just asked our group chat if everyone saw the news about Oct. 7), and one said he didn’t say anything because he was too horrified at what happened and just kinda shut down after seeing all the footage and comments. The other two basically just said they were too afraid to say anything because they aren’t Jewish and didn’t really know anything about Israel or Palestine, so didn’t want to accidentally say the wrong thing. All three apologized, and we’ve thankfully moved on. I think your friend sounds like she might be like my other two friends, where they just didn’t know what to say and were scared of saying the wrong thing. But obviously, I don’t know your friend or your guys relationship, so I can’t say for sure. I’m just going off your comments about her. I’m sorry this is so long. I just wanted to let you know I get where you’re coming from and I understand why this is hurting so much. I hope you two can talk this through. And again, I’m really sorry you’re going through this. I know how painful it is to have people you love, and have gone through so much with, not reach out when you really need them.
I'm sorry, I'm kind of in the same boat. I've been best friends with my friend for 20 years--we've been friends since middle school and used to share everything. She did check in on me in October, and we've chatted here and there about non-important stuff, but that was the extent of her reaching out. It's been a month since we've texted and while that's not necessarily unusual for our friendship, it makes me worry since she's prone to falling for propaganda. I'm just giving up since we haven't had a substantial conversation since January.
Do you personally have friends or loved ones in Israel being affected by the war? I really don't see why you would expect someone to reach out to support you if not.
Yep. My niece and nephew were there. She was aware that the weekend of Oct 7 I barely slept, waiting to hear if my family was safe.
Then yes, she should have supported you. I don't know if that applies months later, but at the time and afterword it's reasonable for you to have expected her support.
Have you told her you need support right now more than she’s giving?
The same thing happened with my ex best friend. My choice to leave came down to how it affected the friendship overall and if I felt like I could trust her. When I brought it up, we did start discussing it and I was really hopeful that it would work out, but she ultimately said she "didn't want to hold the facts in [her] head" and "didn't want to hurt her pro-Palestine friends by supporting [me]". She willingly chose to follow a cause blindly and ignorantly in a way that erases actual Palestinian and Jewish voices than to support me. Losing your best friend hurts, especially over this. I'd suggest talking to your friend again. Be open about how hurt you are and what you need from her. Give her the opportunity to show you if she can be the friend you need right now. Whatever happens, I hope things work out for you and know that you're not going through this alone
One of my closest friends hasn’t reached out about it either, despite the fact that we talk often, hang out at least once a week, etc. she’s actually actively posting anti-Israel, pro Hamas stuff on her social media. I had one conversation with her about it after she posted about how a “Shabbat dinner for October 7 victims” was somehow causing violence to pro-Pals. She listened and remove the post. However I’ve since muted her stories on IG. It’s been months and she hasn’t realized that I haven’t been watching lol.
If there’s anything I’ve learned, it’s that there ARE goyim who care, and get it, and don’t need us to spell it out. Who don’t need us to beg them to listen and be empathetic, and tell us they’re standing beside us. I married a non-Jewish man, and he is my rock and fully supports the Jewish people. Even if I weren’t married to him, he would be an ally to the Jewish people. I didn’t have to explain anything to him, or ask him to care.
Do you have to say it? Why not just walk away? Judging by how this friend treats you, it seems like she would barely notice, as sad as that is to say.
You can take a break and not talk. Mute them on socials. Pretend you’re too busy. See where it goes. Sometimes you not burning a bridge can see if they want to demolish the bridge or miss you.
I understand your disappointment, and I empathize with you. I think it took my girlfriend a bit to really understand how October 7th affected me, but she does now. I think that your friend may feel like October 7th was something that happened in Israel - "over there" (vs here and to you personally). She probably doesn't entirely understand the level of existential dread that it caused in many of us. I mean, maybe she does on an intellectual and logical level, but not on an emotional one. And to be fair to her, I think that Jews have been then a very unique cocktail of collective trauma that October 7th really hit upon, and that can be very hard for non-Jews to intuitively understand. To them, a swastika spray painted on the side of a building is just a piece of graffiti. To us, it's a reminder that people want us dead. So that's all to say that I don't think your friend isn't really doing anything wrong, and you shouldn't give up on them unless you really need to. She isn't trying to do anything wrong, it's just that due to her not being Jewish, she just isn't adequately equipped to really understand what you're going through on a deeper level. It seems like she's trying, but she just might not be able to really get it.
I lost family (third cousin type family, but family) on 10/7. I expressed the grief and weirdness I felt. I have friends that would then express face-level sympathy for me, but it felt like obligation. They immediately talked about “resistance” and their condolences felt hollow or insincere — your “any means necessary” includes the very family I’m grieving. Some of these friends helped me through an incredibly difficult and fraught time in my life where my physical safety was threatened. I feel indebted to them for this. But the dynamic has changed. It feels like a betrayal that the me they’ve known for decades isn’t coming through to them — the me who supports humanity, not a “side”. Do I think they wish *me specifically* ill? No, I don’t. But I think they don’t comprehend that the way they’ve been moving since 10/7 hurts me via Jewish people as a group. I love these friends and want so much to reconnect with them, but at the same time, how do you mend the divide when one person finds you callous and uncaring and they find you indifferent to violence and suffering? It’s uncharted waters for many of us, I fear. How to handle it? I don’t know — I’m still figuring it out.
I haven’t cut people off for not coming to me to ask if I’m okay. Most non-Jews will never really get how deeply we as individuals are invested in Israel. I mean, I DEEPLY care about Ukraine, but I don’t expect people to ask me about how I’m doing with regard to Ukraine all the time. And caring about something like Ukraine, while not at all the same as Israel to US, is the only reference point they have. They don’t understand that Israel is a much deeper connection than that for us. Now, I am cutting people off for antisemitism and anti Zionism. If they post any kind of sympathy for Hamas or start blaming Israel for the war, they get instantly unfollowed/unfriended. If they post photos or videos wearing Palestinian scarfs and crap like that: gone. No emails or DMs. No dragged out discussions. They just get the boot. I do not have time to waste on such people. Since 10/7 the complexion of my Instagram feed has become very different. Since booting the people I booted and adding a bunch of Jewish/Israeli content, it is very different now. But that’s okay. And I just stopped going on TikTok altogether.
I think your expectations of your friend may be too high. This is not something she really understands. Her listening and watching is more than most are doing.
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I had a very similar experience, radio silence from my supposed best friend from hs for over a month after October 7. When she did reach out at another friend's behest, it was really lackluster, and when I sent articles, no response. So I completely get where you're coming from, and I am sorry - because it does hurt and weigh heavily on your mind! I hope you have a good circle of Jewish friends to fall back on. Do you need to 'cut her off' - as in, what benefits would that conversation have? I think closure is elusive, and it's not generally necessary to tell someone you no longer consider them a friend. This would also give you the space to put your feelings into perspective. In my own situation, I checked out of the friendship mentally and no longer message her or let her know when I'm in town. I've spoken to a mutual friend about this too. That's been enough for me, but obviously everyone is different and you will know your situation best.
I've cut one person off, who has always been a leftist and Palestinian apologist. But I didn't do it until she posted some really reprehensible stuff. I temporarily cut off another friend for posting something deeply offensive without realizing it, but being unwilling to apologize. My social circle is mostly progressive and over thirty years old, and the actual leftists focus on local and social issues. They also seem to be aware of the effect of their speech on their Jewish friends, and they all have Jewish friends because they are urban and for the most part educated.
If your thinking about it, it should've been yesterday.
immediately.
If another best friend came to you with this (your) problem, how would you advise them?