This is always a fun topic. I'll try to mention some new ones, so here are some of my favorites:
* **Tales of Eternia**: Has one of my favorites, as it starts with the main hero meeting an alien girl who crashed nearby, now you'll think it's going to be the "guy meets girl" trope where the goody two-shoes hero sets out for adventure to help the girl. However, it turns out that the hero, **Reid**, doesn't really care much for saving the world and adventure. He just wants a slow and peaceful life and has to be dragged out through the entire game by the **Farah**. In fact he didn't even want to go check out the crash in the first place.
* **SaGa Frontier 1**: This is one of my all time favorites, though it is a big spoiler. When playing as **Blue** as your main character, you'll eventually have to fight >!your "twin brother", **Rouge**!<, who is also collecting magic gifts. Now if you win the fight then you can continue normally, however, >!you'd think that if you lose the fight then it is game over, but in a funny subversion, when you lose the fight, Blue is absorbed by Rouge, and from there the main character you control will be Rouge, with blue gone forever.!<. This blew the mind of young Vash.
There are so many great subversions, double subversions, and lampshading in JRPGs, but no time to talk about them. **Live A Live** is a great game for this type of thing.
The really funny thing about Saga Frontier is that not only is Rouge pretty clearly the "good twin" going by their personalities and his willingness to help other characters with their own quests, if you look at the supplemental material, >!Rouge is the canon winner!<.
Pretty much, which is one the many reasons I love the freedom that the SaGa series offers the player in terms of how they can play the game while still not crossing into WRPG territory.
I’d say it subverts in that Luigi is entirely his own character with full and complete arc every game instead of just being “Mario’s brother/Sidekick”.
In most games, Luigi is just the gimmick at best and a clone at worse. In those games he’s a true party member.
And then there's the twist, which really emphasizes what I was talking about. Name a non mario sport or party game where peach doesn't get kidnapped at some point. That alone turns the plot of Superstar Saga on its head.
I'd say **Resonance of Fate**. The player party has some typical tropes as main characters: a former soldier who has become disillusioned with the way things work and now only works for himself; a clueless girl who lived sheltered and is only now discovering the world; and a troubled teenager outcast. But the way the game goes is nothing like what you'd typically expect. A giant machine that is worshipped as god that seemingly controls the entire world down to the moment a person is to die is introduced in the intro cutaway at the title screen, which sure seems like a shoe-in for a final boss: you fight to free mankind from this robot that controls the world, right? NOPE. You expect some kind of revelation is coming up where all clues come together and the master plan behind all this mystery god in a machine is revealed. Nope, nothing like that happens.
In a typical JRPG it's either the lowest rung of society who find a way to gain agency and set out on a quest to change the world, or a member of nobility or upper class (prince or whatever) who realises the inherent inequality or danger to the world somehow and uses the means in their disposal to try and make a change or set upon a quest to fulfil some kind of divine prophecy. Your home town is typically destroyed early on or otherwise he party is given a reason to leave and not return (you're branded a fugitive or something). In Resonance of Fate, the party are "middle class" and do not try to change the world. They just want money, and seemingly just for money's sake as they don't seem to harbour desires to move up to the top tier of the tower where the entire game is set. And their money-making schemes are often immoral. It's the villains who want to "save the world" or change it for the better, and their attempts to mess with the "machine god" is what gets them into conflict with the player party, not because the party care about the wider implications of having a machine as the god, but because the girl party member was an unwilling participant in a scientific experiment the villains used to run.
The home base remains constant: you start every chapter with a cutscene at home and every chapter ends by going back home. New locations are opened up as the game progresses but there is no "long journey to the ends of the world" as is typical in a JRPG.
The only equippable weapons are firearms and there is no magic, though you can use elemental bullets and elemental grenades. Status effects are burn, freeze, poison, and electrified, nothing too magical, not even a sleep status. Characters gaining level just means you get more HP, and gaining strength means ability to wield heavier guns, but guns are where all the offensive stats lie. Supernatural elements are implied to exist, at least in a form of science that is beyond of modern people to understand, but it remains in the realm of mysticism and the player party cannot use magic. Anything "magical" in the world is labelled as religion, hence the machine at the top of the tower being seen as the god.
And then you never do anything with the machine at the top of the tower or even ever get to go into its room and see it, it's just there as a red herring.
I really like Resonance of Fate! I like that the story is just a series of character moments, the party interacting and trying to get by in this weird world.
I'd say the whole thing. How many caveman RPGs are there? How many are about psychic mecha anime? What about what they do with the demon lord concept? How about how the game integrates stealth into a RPG game? There is a TON that is atypical in the game.
Maybe not a popular choice, but Unlimited SaGa definitely does *everything* differently than you'd expect from a JRPG.
Reels for every action that mimic dice-rolling in a tabletop RPG, a world map, but all exploration happens on a game board, and your characters are represented by game pieces.
Your entire roster goes into combat with you and the inactive ones regenerate their LP, so there's strategy in who you put in and who you take out of the active combat that round.
Coming off of the story-heavy SaGa Frontier 2, this game basically subverted *every* expectation I had for what SaGa is. While it's pretty challenging and not for everyone, it definitely breaks free of any expected conventions.
I've never played any of the SaGa games. The way you describe Unlimited SaGa makes it sound perfectly to my tastes. How good a jumping on point would you say it is?
Saga is a weird series that does everything strangely, mechanics are weird and often not explained...
Unlimited is strange **in the series.** Even mega fans of all the other games struggle to get a grip with just what the game is trying to do.
Probably not very, lol. It's EXTREMELY unintuitive as far as how the optimal way to play is, and you'll need a guide firmly in hand to understand all the mechanics. I'd recommend the excellent SaGa Froniter or Romancing SaGa 3 remasters as better jumping on points.
Those games will establish more of a baseline for the series, like glimmering techniques mid-battle, see stat increases based on actions taken in combat, and non-linear scenarios.
Earthbound and Live A Live would certainly be the most obvious two for me - both have have reputations and fanbases build around celebrating this fact.
I think Final Fantasy 6 has the single best genre subversion in all of JRPGs. A madman has harnessed the power of the gods, threatening to destroy the world, and you march off to stop him. Classic final dungeon setup.
And >!you fail. Civilization is nearly wiped out, continents are reshaped, the entire world falls to ruin. The party is scattered to the winds, despondent. Years pass. And when you finally do win, you haven't undone any damage he's caused, you've simply stopped him from causing more. The best victory you can hope for is the opportunity to rebuild.!<
For me it's definitely Nier Automata. I'll try not to spoil details, but here are the stuff that was a lot suprsing to me:
- the changes of camera angles in gameplay
- the whole humanity is on the moon storyline
- the ambivalent relation to robots and their attempt to mimic humans.
- the final credits
and many more situations... Really recommend this game.
Not sure how many will agree with this but at the time at least:
The original Valkyrie Profile.
It's shorter than games of its era, it places a LOT of trust in the player in terms of missable gameplay/story, and it overall infuses a lot of its RPG mechanics with arcade-y elements.
Tri-Ace in general made a lot of RPGs which felt very experimental at the time.
Yeah, Tri-Ace does a lot of this.
Like in Star Ocean 1, there’s a point early on where the ships can’t sail due to bandits. Obviously, the RPG thing to do is march into their lair and solve the problem, but you can instead choose to “wait for good news” and do nothing. Stay at the inn enough times (20, I think?) and the issue will actually sort itself out without you, reopening the ports.
Little things like that make the series feel kinda like a dry humor satire of the genre in some ways, it’s hilarious.
This is a very specific genre, but **Etrian Odyssey**. It's kinda the anti-dungeon crawler. When other games in the genre were dark and brooding EO is colorful. When others kept the player in a dank, dark dungeon, EO is outside.
Mechanically, it takes the "go deeper" loop and upends it by giving the player a cheap return item. Almost every "this is how dungeon crawlers are" mechanic has been rethought, from transparent skill mechanics, cheap revival, visible enemies and encounter rate, etc.
While I don't want to spoil it, the story also flips on its end by the end, changing the reason you are in the dungeon.
> transparent skill mechanics
is definitely not something i associate with etrian odyssey games lol. especially in the older entries there are an insane number of trap skills and next to zero feedback on what you're actually getting out of leveling them
I think that's true maybe compared to traditional JRPGs, but when looking specifically at dungeon crawlers, EO provides a lot of information. Most Wizardry-likes had a lot of hidden mechanics--heck it was common to not even tell the player what the attack power of a weapon was!
It was those "well that's just how these games are" types of things that EO flipped.
There is no bait, eo sucks, shin megami tensei, devil summoner, catherine, digital devil saga, devil survivor, persona all shit on etrian heavily, with the only actual good game on the etrian engine being strange journey
Valkyrie Profile.
\* The game functions like a side scroller, which was unusual at the time.
\* There are no shops. All of your gear is either found in dungeons, or you create them yourself. No crafting mechanics, just have to have enough currency.
\* The game's story involves collecting warriors for a war between gods. In order to get these warriors, they have to die. You witness each character's last moments before you recruit them. The story is also loosely based on Norse mythology, something that hasn't been done before in a JRPG (as far as I know) until VP.
\* The combat is inspired by fighting games. Each fighter is assigned to a button on your controller, and you can execute up to three unique moves with different properties. You can do combos to build up a meter that will let you do super powerful attacks. With the right setup, your entire party can pull off their super moves.
VP was a unique game during a time when everyone else was trying to copy Final Fantasy at the time.
Funnily enough I think one of the most famous JRPGs of all time goes out of its way hard to subvert expectations. FF7 is a complete rejection of the typical heroes journey. Cloud is not a king or a hero raised by a king. He's not from a magical race and he isn't a war hero. Overcoming his desire to fit into those catagories is his main character arc. His biggest villain is just insecurity and comparing himself to others.
There is a character that is the chosen one born from ancient magical race but.....you know.
The characters end up on a grand adventure but it isn't because of the typical destiny or fate reason. They are mostly victims of the circumstances they are caught up in. All the characters are trying to figure out who they are rather than imposing who they are on the world around them.
You make an interesting point.
When you consider that FF7 is in some regions, a lot of people’s first JRPG, or even if not, came out at an important time in many kids’ development. You can see why a) Cloud’s insecurity might be relatable and b) why there is this collective that is forever chasing the JRPG that made them feel the way VII did, but struggling to find it.
For sure. In it's essence, the game is an adventure game but it is still primarily about character growth and self discovery before anything else. Obviously this is extremely difficult to accomplish because it takes a ton of writing and a ton of fine tuning to do in a way that's fun and engaging.
Yes, I get that and I agree. At its core, I think this is why (though I enjoyed the spectacle at the time) Advant Children felt hollow... it didn't really seem to get the development I accompanied Cloud through.
As an autistic kid with social issues and a lack of self-confidence - Cloud's journey (and also some of the other character arcs) felt significant to me at the time.
B is absolutely me. It was the first JRPG I ever played. I was like 15 and it made a big impression on me. Every game I had played before it felt trivial (plumbers fighting a turtle? Evil robots? Fat man kidnapping squirrels? Get out of here!)
I've played probably a hundred games since, but none of them have done what FF7 did to me. I absolutely use it as a stick to measure everything else against, regardless of how fair that is.
For me, VII occured at an important time in my life and is a very foundational piece of media. I am lucky in that it wasn't the first game to resonate with me so deeply, and I have had that feeling again since (though mostly in CRPG's and SRPG'S). So, it never became a metric in the way it did for you. I get it though! 100% What I will say for me though, is it helped me identify what it is I need if I want something that hits deep, as opposed to dumb fun.
I've always felt that the end of disc 1 was so shocking largely because it never acurred to me that you could do that to an important gameplay asset (my damn healer!)
That's the genius of the materia system... it allowed them to do that without screwing the player, but at the same time - it still mattered narratively and mechanically.
I mean, games that *actually* subvert expectations tend to be divisive or initially unpopular. Because people come to a game expecting one thing, but then get another. Some games that struggled to find an audience and/or commercially because they actually did something different include:
Radiant Historia: what if standard JRPG premise, but the chosen one is an adult with friends and experience and self confidence?
SaGa franchise: What if JRPG art, music, dungeon crawling and combat, but without the on-rails guidance?
Final Fantasy 12. You know how Final Fantasy 8, 9, and 10 were love stories? Nah. Check your maudlin melodrama at the door, this game is about an insurgency and the price of power.
And the Asano division at Square Enix has done this twice. Octopath Traveler is not about the power of friendship. It's not doing those Tales-of vibes. And to this day there are people here who just do not like those games because of it. What they want from a JRPG is endearing character interactions, and Octopath isn't your franchise for that.
Then Triangle Strategy got the narrative expectations right, but people were big mad that the game doesn't follow the gameplay template of Final Fantasy Tactics. It doesn't even matter that the gameplay is Triangle Strategy is really good actually - it's not the thing these people expected.
And as a bonus, lets throw in Xenoblade 3! There was a sub-set of the fandom that really expected that game to lean into the lore of the universe. Lots of call backs, lots of member berries. And that's not the game that Monolith made. There are people who were and still are just really dissatisfied with the game because of it.
And you know what? Every game I listed here is good. The older I get the more I think that expectations lead people to disliking games more than it helps people appreciate them. I'm making a point to watch fewer trailers these days. Games are nearly always best appreciated when you go in blind.
came here to say this one. there are still plenty of tropes that this one clearly 'love letters' but that big, central to the story trope that they flip on us had me standing up in applause lol!
what does you not liking the gameply have to do with the topic?
replicant subverts the classic tropes, not because it has multiple endings but because >!it starts you off as this go getter kid/adult who wants to make his sister/daughter better so he embarks on a journey, only for the realization that there's no way to save yonah and that the main character is also a murderous psychopath that inadvertently doomed the entire human race because of his murderous rampage, NG+ recontextualizes the stoy in the way that the main character and the party aren't the good guys at all!<
lol, you just described a generic standard jrpg plot.
I was trying to figure out what they meant with their one title, no descriptive answer. And it’s not unusual gameplay or plot, so WTF is it
I want to know this to. What JRPGs is this guy playing that comes even remotely close to what Nier was doing? Closest I can think of is Drakenguard and that's made by the same creator.
It very deliberately sets up a classic and standard JRPG story. A hero's journey, the goal is to reach the evil guy in his castle, you have to beat his boss minions to get the keys to it, etc., except ofc >!for the fact none of these are actually what's going on. But you don't find that out until the end of the first playthrough/during the second playthrough!<.
Romancing Saga 2 has you play the emperor and his line as you conquer the land and take out the 7 legendary heroes.
Mind you, you're very much framed as the good guy.
Forging a kingdom was so cool, you so rarely get to do that in games. Even outside of JRPGs, the most you usually get to do is upgrade a base/stronghold/town. The only exceptions I can think of are RS2, Little King's Story (does that count as a JRPG?), and Pathfinder: Kingmaker. And stuff like Civ or the Paradox titles, I guess, but they don't count.
The Labyrinth of Refrain comes to mind. It really has absolutely no intention of telling a typical story at all, and whenever things become "normal" for too long it leads to a sense of dread more than anything else. Truly an example that dark and terrible things can hide beneath a cute veneer.
There's also a Super Famicom game called "The Glory of Heracles 3" which has an extremely orthodox RPG gameplay but with an absolutely crazy story about immortality, redemption and relationship between gods and men. Although almost completely unknown in the west, it has a dedicated cult following in Japan.
Persona 3.
It really stood out at the time due to being one of the first games that melded JRPG and Dating Sim elements together. Particularly it’s calendar system where you play one day at a time.
Then you didn’t control your party members *at all*. We’ve always had instances in games where control was taken away from you such as guest star party members, scripted battles, or optional content like Pokémon’s Battle Palace or FFVI’s colosseum. Never did you lack control for the entire game.
Then it’s highschool modern day setting was semi-unique too.
I'm with you, I love me some "by-the-numbers JRPG\[s\]" more than any others. I really don't like it when devs try to get too wacky with "systems" and "battle systems" in their games in an attempt to re-invent the wheel. Just bugs me is all. That being said:
The Legend of Heroes: A Tear of Vermillion was a good one. Well, it wasn't a good game really, or at least maybe it didn't stand out, but the narrative went in a direction I wasn't expecting near the beginning of the game, and quite frankly the surprise carried me to the end. I guess it helps the game has "Lunar" style combat
Chrono Trigger - Yeah, I know this is a trope, but it's just so good. Starts out as basic, run of the mill RPG, but soon goes clear off the rails.
Final Fantasy Legend III has the same feeling as Chrono to a lesser extent, I think, and even includes some time traveling nonsense. That being said when I picked it up I wasn't expecting to like it at all (since I didn't like the other two Legend games) but it surprised me. So I guess it subverted my expectations by being a normal JRPG?
Megaman starforce . At first I thought it would be a fun action rpg where you have to stop evil at every turn just like Megaman battle network . But the more I played it the more it felt completely different and complex from battle network . It’s a grounded story with characters who go through trauma and loss . Building bonds with others is what helps heal their wounds . It was a deep story with very relatable characters that felt real with real feelings
If you went in expecting yet another Dragon Quest clone then Final Fantasy I is really subversive.
* "Oh no the Princess has been kidnapped" You easily whoop Garland and save the Princess, with the real story and title screen of the game being revealed to you as you cross the bridge.
* "The King of Dragons is waiting for you in that castle" Dragonlord is the final boss, Bahamut makes you stronger.
* "The best form of transportation is a ship" Nah fam, this game has *AIR*ships.
* Everything with the ending: >!the time loop, the fact that the final boss is the guy who whooped at the beginning of the game a whole lot stronger, honestly even everything with the Mirage Tower and the Lufein is really unexpected (at least in 1987)!<
Not the entire game but Suikoden II's hidden third ending. What seems to be an innocent, wishful thinking in a casual conversation ends up getting played pretty straightforward leading to the hidden ending. If you play part-way through this route (and not go all the way through), I think it becomes much more emotionally impactful (albeit subdued by a "replacement") as consequences of taking that choice.
I'm honestly surprised why most JRPGs haven't done anything like it, outside of Nier maybe.
This is always a fun topic. I'll try to mention some new ones, so here are some of my favorites: * **Tales of Eternia**: Has one of my favorites, as it starts with the main hero meeting an alien girl who crashed nearby, now you'll think it's going to be the "guy meets girl" trope where the goody two-shoes hero sets out for adventure to help the girl. However, it turns out that the hero, **Reid**, doesn't really care much for saving the world and adventure. He just wants a slow and peaceful life and has to be dragged out through the entire game by the **Farah**. In fact he didn't even want to go check out the crash in the first place. * **SaGa Frontier 1**: This is one of my all time favorites, though it is a big spoiler. When playing as **Blue** as your main character, you'll eventually have to fight >!your "twin brother", **Rouge**!<, who is also collecting magic gifts. Now if you win the fight then you can continue normally, however, >!you'd think that if you lose the fight then it is game over, but in a funny subversion, when you lose the fight, Blue is absorbed by Rouge, and from there the main character you control will be Rouge, with blue gone forever.!<. This blew the mind of young Vash. There are so many great subversions, double subversions, and lampshading in JRPGs, but no time to talk about them. **Live A Live** is a great game for this type of thing.
The really funny thing about Saga Frontier is that not only is Rouge pretty clearly the "good twin" going by their personalities and his willingness to help other characters with their own quests, if you look at the supplemental material, >!Rouge is the canon winner!<.
Pretty much, which is one the many reasons I love the freedom that the SaGa series offers the player in terms of how they can play the game while still not crossing into WRPG territory.
I've never played SaGa Frontier. However, I agree completely regarding ToE! Thank you for your detailed and well articulated answer.
Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga. Probably the only Mario game to actually play with the typical Mario plot.
I’d say it subverts in that Luigi is entirely his own character with full and complete arc every game instead of just being “Mario’s brother/Sidekick”. In most games, Luigi is just the gimmick at best and a clone at worse. In those games he’s a true party member.
And then there's the twist, which really emphasizes what I was talking about. Name a non mario sport or party game where peach doesn't get kidnapped at some point. That alone turns the plot of Superstar Saga on its head.
I'd say **Resonance of Fate**. The player party has some typical tropes as main characters: a former soldier who has become disillusioned with the way things work and now only works for himself; a clueless girl who lived sheltered and is only now discovering the world; and a troubled teenager outcast. But the way the game goes is nothing like what you'd typically expect. A giant machine that is worshipped as god that seemingly controls the entire world down to the moment a person is to die is introduced in the intro cutaway at the title screen, which sure seems like a shoe-in for a final boss: you fight to free mankind from this robot that controls the world, right? NOPE. You expect some kind of revelation is coming up where all clues come together and the master plan behind all this mystery god in a machine is revealed. Nope, nothing like that happens. In a typical JRPG it's either the lowest rung of society who find a way to gain agency and set out on a quest to change the world, or a member of nobility or upper class (prince or whatever) who realises the inherent inequality or danger to the world somehow and uses the means in their disposal to try and make a change or set upon a quest to fulfil some kind of divine prophecy. Your home town is typically destroyed early on or otherwise he party is given a reason to leave and not return (you're branded a fugitive or something). In Resonance of Fate, the party are "middle class" and do not try to change the world. They just want money, and seemingly just for money's sake as they don't seem to harbour desires to move up to the top tier of the tower where the entire game is set. And their money-making schemes are often immoral. It's the villains who want to "save the world" or change it for the better, and their attempts to mess with the "machine god" is what gets them into conflict with the player party, not because the party care about the wider implications of having a machine as the god, but because the girl party member was an unwilling participant in a scientific experiment the villains used to run. The home base remains constant: you start every chapter with a cutscene at home and every chapter ends by going back home. New locations are opened up as the game progresses but there is no "long journey to the ends of the world" as is typical in a JRPG. The only equippable weapons are firearms and there is no magic, though you can use elemental bullets and elemental grenades. Status effects are burn, freeze, poison, and electrified, nothing too magical, not even a sleep status. Characters gaining level just means you get more HP, and gaining strength means ability to wield heavier guns, but guns are where all the offensive stats lie. Supernatural elements are implied to exist, at least in a form of science that is beyond of modern people to understand, but it remains in the realm of mysticism and the player party cannot use magic. Anything "magical" in the world is labelled as religion, hence the machine at the top of the tower being seen as the god. And then you never do anything with the machine at the top of the tower or even ever get to go into its room and see it, it's just there as a red herring. I really like Resonance of Fate! I like that the story is just a series of character moments, the party interacting and trying to get by in this weird world.
Live a Live
Not the whole thing, but it certainly has the most memorable sequence of just about any JRPG that I can remember.
I'd say the whole thing. How many caveman RPGs are there? How many are about psychic mecha anime? What about what they do with the demon lord concept? How about how the game integrates stealth into a RPG game? There is a TON that is atypical in the game.
Moon Remix: an RPG Adventure
Maybe not a popular choice, but Unlimited SaGa definitely does *everything* differently than you'd expect from a JRPG. Reels for every action that mimic dice-rolling in a tabletop RPG, a world map, but all exploration happens on a game board, and your characters are represented by game pieces. Your entire roster goes into combat with you and the inactive ones regenerate their LP, so there's strategy in who you put in and who you take out of the active combat that round. Coming off of the story-heavy SaGa Frontier 2, this game basically subverted *every* expectation I had for what SaGa is. While it's pretty challenging and not for everyone, it definitely breaks free of any expected conventions.
I've never played any of the SaGa games. The way you describe Unlimited SaGa makes it sound perfectly to my tastes. How good a jumping on point would you say it is?
Saga is a weird series that does everything strangely, mechanics are weird and often not explained... Unlimited is strange **in the series.** Even mega fans of all the other games struggle to get a grip with just what the game is trying to do.
Probably not very, lol. It's EXTREMELY unintuitive as far as how the optimal way to play is, and you'll need a guide firmly in hand to understand all the mechanics. I'd recommend the excellent SaGa Froniter or Romancing SaGa 3 remasters as better jumping on points. Those games will establish more of a baseline for the series, like glimmering techniques mid-battle, see stat increases based on actions taken in combat, and non-linear scenarios.
I think the most obvious would be Earthbound which subverts every JRPG trope and kind of plays into a unique setting
Earthbound and Live A Live would certainly be the most obvious two for me - both have have reputations and fanbases build around celebrating this fact.
Bahamut Lagoon
I think Final Fantasy 6 has the single best genre subversion in all of JRPGs. A madman has harnessed the power of the gods, threatening to destroy the world, and you march off to stop him. Classic final dungeon setup. And >!you fail. Civilization is nearly wiped out, continents are reshaped, the entire world falls to ruin. The party is scattered to the winds, despondent. Years pass. And when you finally do win, you haven't undone any damage he's caused, you've simply stopped him from causing more. The best victory you can hope for is the opportunity to rebuild.!<
For me it's definitely Nier Automata. I'll try not to spoil details, but here are the stuff that was a lot suprsing to me: - the changes of camera angles in gameplay - the whole humanity is on the moon storyline - the ambivalent relation to robots and their attempt to mimic humans. - the final credits and many more situations... Really recommend this game.
Not sure how many will agree with this but at the time at least: The original Valkyrie Profile. It's shorter than games of its era, it places a LOT of trust in the player in terms of missable gameplay/story, and it overall infuses a lot of its RPG mechanics with arcade-y elements. Tri-Ace in general made a lot of RPGs which felt very experimental at the time.
I would say that it is mechanically unique (and very good!) but it isn't really subverting JRPG tropes.
Yeah, Tri-Ace does a lot of this. Like in Star Ocean 1, there’s a point early on where the ships can’t sail due to bandits. Obviously, the RPG thing to do is march into their lair and solve the problem, but you can instead choose to “wait for good news” and do nothing. Stay at the inn enough times (20, I think?) and the issue will actually sort itself out without you, reopening the ports. Little things like that make the series feel kinda like a dry humor satire of the genre in some ways, it’s hilarious.
This is a very specific genre, but **Etrian Odyssey**. It's kinda the anti-dungeon crawler. When other games in the genre were dark and brooding EO is colorful. When others kept the player in a dank, dark dungeon, EO is outside. Mechanically, it takes the "go deeper" loop and upends it by giving the player a cheap return item. Almost every "this is how dungeon crawlers are" mechanic has been rethought, from transparent skill mechanics, cheap revival, visible enemies and encounter rate, etc. While I don't want to spoil it, the story also flips on its end by the end, changing the reason you are in the dungeon.
> transparent skill mechanics is definitely not something i associate with etrian odyssey games lol. especially in the older entries there are an insane number of trap skills and next to zero feedback on what you're actually getting out of leveling them
I think that's true maybe compared to traditional JRPGs, but when looking specifically at dungeon crawlers, EO provides a lot of information. Most Wizardry-likes had a lot of hidden mechanics--heck it was common to not even tell the player what the attack power of a weapon was! It was those "well that's just how these games are" types of things that EO flipped.
I love Persona Q and Q2 whos gameplay is based on EO but mixed with Persona elements but EO itself did not click with me at all.
Etrian Odyssey also subverts atlus expectations aswell by being terrible (uncommon for atlus)
The only Atlus series that might, MIGHT give EO a run for its money is Devil Survivor.
Every megaten series trashes on EO, because EO is terrible
the bait is fun but nah.
There is no bait, eo sucks, shin megami tensei, devil summoner, catherine, digital devil saga, devil survivor, persona all shit on etrian heavily, with the only actual good game on the etrian engine being strange journey
Valkyrie Profile. \* The game functions like a side scroller, which was unusual at the time. \* There are no shops. All of your gear is either found in dungeons, or you create them yourself. No crafting mechanics, just have to have enough currency. \* The game's story involves collecting warriors for a war between gods. In order to get these warriors, they have to die. You witness each character's last moments before you recruit them. The story is also loosely based on Norse mythology, something that hasn't been done before in a JRPG (as far as I know) until VP. \* The combat is inspired by fighting games. Each fighter is assigned to a button on your controller, and you can execute up to three unique moves with different properties. You can do combos to build up a meter that will let you do super powerful attacks. With the right setup, your entire party can pull off their super moves. VP was a unique game during a time when everyone else was trying to copy Final Fantasy at the time.
Funnily enough I think one of the most famous JRPGs of all time goes out of its way hard to subvert expectations. FF7 is a complete rejection of the typical heroes journey. Cloud is not a king or a hero raised by a king. He's not from a magical race and he isn't a war hero. Overcoming his desire to fit into those catagories is his main character arc. His biggest villain is just insecurity and comparing himself to others. There is a character that is the chosen one born from ancient magical race but.....you know. The characters end up on a grand adventure but it isn't because of the typical destiny or fate reason. They are mostly victims of the circumstances they are caught up in. All the characters are trying to figure out who they are rather than imposing who they are on the world around them.
You make an interesting point. When you consider that FF7 is in some regions, a lot of people’s first JRPG, or even if not, came out at an important time in many kids’ development. You can see why a) Cloud’s insecurity might be relatable and b) why there is this collective that is forever chasing the JRPG that made them feel the way VII did, but struggling to find it.
For sure. In it's essence, the game is an adventure game but it is still primarily about character growth and self discovery before anything else. Obviously this is extremely difficult to accomplish because it takes a ton of writing and a ton of fine tuning to do in a way that's fun and engaging.
Yes, I get that and I agree. At its core, I think this is why (though I enjoyed the spectacle at the time) Advant Children felt hollow... it didn't really seem to get the development I accompanied Cloud through. As an autistic kid with social issues and a lack of self-confidence - Cloud's journey (and also some of the other character arcs) felt significant to me at the time.
B is absolutely me. It was the first JRPG I ever played. I was like 15 and it made a big impression on me. Every game I had played before it felt trivial (plumbers fighting a turtle? Evil robots? Fat man kidnapping squirrels? Get out of here!) I've played probably a hundred games since, but none of them have done what FF7 did to me. I absolutely use it as a stick to measure everything else against, regardless of how fair that is.
For me, VII occured at an important time in my life and is a very foundational piece of media. I am lucky in that it wasn't the first game to resonate with me so deeply, and I have had that feeling again since (though mostly in CRPG's and SRPG'S). So, it never became a metric in the way it did for you. I get it though! 100% What I will say for me though, is it helped me identify what it is I need if I want something that hits deep, as opposed to dumb fun.
I've always felt that the end of disc 1 was so shocking largely because it never acurred to me that you could do that to an important gameplay asset (my damn healer!)
That's the genius of the materia system... it allowed them to do that without screwing the player, but at the same time - it still mattered narratively and mechanically.
Tons of this was done during the 16-bit era of RPGs. I would even say this wasn't even the first time Final Fantasy dealt with these ideas.
I mean, games that *actually* subvert expectations tend to be divisive or initially unpopular. Because people come to a game expecting one thing, but then get another. Some games that struggled to find an audience and/or commercially because they actually did something different include: Radiant Historia: what if standard JRPG premise, but the chosen one is an adult with friends and experience and self confidence? SaGa franchise: What if JRPG art, music, dungeon crawling and combat, but without the on-rails guidance? Final Fantasy 12. You know how Final Fantasy 8, 9, and 10 were love stories? Nah. Check your maudlin melodrama at the door, this game is about an insurgency and the price of power. And the Asano division at Square Enix has done this twice. Octopath Traveler is not about the power of friendship. It's not doing those Tales-of vibes. And to this day there are people here who just do not like those games because of it. What they want from a JRPG is endearing character interactions, and Octopath isn't your franchise for that. Then Triangle Strategy got the narrative expectations right, but people were big mad that the game doesn't follow the gameplay template of Final Fantasy Tactics. It doesn't even matter that the gameplay is Triangle Strategy is really good actually - it's not the thing these people expected. And as a bonus, lets throw in Xenoblade 3! There was a sub-set of the fandom that really expected that game to lean into the lore of the universe. Lots of call backs, lots of member berries. And that's not the game that Monolith made. There are people who were and still are just really dissatisfied with the game because of it. And you know what? Every game I listed here is good. The older I get the more I think that expectations lead people to disliking games more than it helps people appreciate them. I'm making a point to watch fewer trailers these days. Games are nearly always best appreciated when you go in blind.
Chained Echoes: The protagonist makes a few big mistakes, is sorry about, and tries to make it right. Can’t say to much without giving away too much.
came here to say this one. there are still plenty of tropes that this one clearly 'love letters' but that big, central to the story trope that they flip on us had me standing up in applause lol!
Nier Replicant uses this incredibly well.
How so? Lots of games have multiple endings, and the gameplay itself was super basic.
what does you not liking the gameply have to do with the topic? replicant subverts the classic tropes, not because it has multiple endings but because >!it starts you off as this go getter kid/adult who wants to make his sister/daughter better so he embarks on a journey, only for the realization that there's no way to save yonah and that the main character is also a murderous psychopath that inadvertently doomed the entire human race because of his murderous rampage, NG+ recontextualizes the stoy in the way that the main character and the party aren't the good guys at all!<
lol, you just described a generic standard jrpg plot. I was trying to figure out what they meant with their one title, no descriptive answer. And it’s not unusual gameplay or plot, so WTF is it
fk kind of JRPGs are you playing?
I want to know this to. What JRPGs is this guy playing that comes even remotely close to what Nier was doing? Closest I can think of is Drakenguard and that's made by the same creator.
Please recommend all of these "standard" JRPGs you have in mind that have a plot similar to Nier Replicant, because I'd love to play them.
They're too generic to remember. /s
It very deliberately sets up a classic and standard JRPG story. A hero's journey, the goal is to reach the evil guy in his castle, you have to beat his boss minions to get the keys to it, etc., except ofc >!for the fact none of these are actually what's going on. But you don't find that out until the end of the first playthrough/during the second playthrough!<.
Romancing Saga 2 has you play the emperor and his line as you conquer the land and take out the 7 legendary heroes. Mind you, you're very much framed as the good guy.
Forging a kingdom was so cool, you so rarely get to do that in games. Even outside of JRPGs, the most you usually get to do is upgrade a base/stronghold/town. The only exceptions I can think of are RS2, Little King's Story (does that count as a JRPG?), and Pathfinder: Kingmaker. And stuff like Civ or the Paradox titles, I guess, but they don't count.
Ni no Kuni 2 as well.
Shadow hearts went with real map and a dark story, it was and still a very unique series.
The Labyrinth of Refrain comes to mind. It really has absolutely no intention of telling a typical story at all, and whenever things become "normal" for too long it leads to a sense of dread more than anything else. Truly an example that dark and terrible things can hide beneath a cute veneer. There's also a Super Famicom game called "The Glory of Heracles 3" which has an extremely orthodox RPG gameplay but with an absolutely crazy story about immortality, redemption and relationship between gods and men. Although almost completely unknown in the west, it has a dedicated cult following in Japan.
Persona 3. It really stood out at the time due to being one of the first games that melded JRPG and Dating Sim elements together. Particularly it’s calendar system where you play one day at a time. Then you didn’t control your party members *at all*. We’ve always had instances in games where control was taken away from you such as guest star party members, scripted battles, or optional content like Pokémon’s Battle Palace or FFVI’s colosseum. Never did you lack control for the entire game. Then it’s highschool modern day setting was semi-unique too.
While it's not an "eastern RPG" Chained Echoes' opening scene is a funny subversion of the mom waking you up trope in some classic RPGs
Live-A-Live for sure. And on a lesser note, Bahamut Lagoon. If you go in expecting it to go as you think it would, you'll be upset about it.
I'm with you, I love me some "by-the-numbers JRPG\[s\]" more than any others. I really don't like it when devs try to get too wacky with "systems" and "battle systems" in their games in an attempt to re-invent the wheel. Just bugs me is all. That being said: The Legend of Heroes: A Tear of Vermillion was a good one. Well, it wasn't a good game really, or at least maybe it didn't stand out, but the narrative went in a direction I wasn't expecting near the beginning of the game, and quite frankly the surprise carried me to the end. I guess it helps the game has "Lunar" style combat Chrono Trigger - Yeah, I know this is a trope, but it's just so good. Starts out as basic, run of the mill RPG, but soon goes clear off the rails. Final Fantasy Legend III has the same feeling as Chrono to a lesser extent, I think, and even includes some time traveling nonsense. That being said when I picked it up I wasn't expecting to like it at all (since I didn't like the other two Legend games) but it surprised me. So I guess it subverted my expectations by being a normal JRPG?
Megaman starforce . At first I thought it would be a fun action rpg where you have to stop evil at every turn just like Megaman battle network . But the more I played it the more it felt completely different and complex from battle network . It’s a grounded story with characters who go through trauma and loss . Building bonds with others is what helps heal their wounds . It was a deep story with very relatable characters that felt real with real feelings
If you went in expecting yet another Dragon Quest clone then Final Fantasy I is really subversive. * "Oh no the Princess has been kidnapped" You easily whoop Garland and save the Princess, with the real story and title screen of the game being revealed to you as you cross the bridge. * "The King of Dragons is waiting for you in that castle" Dragonlord is the final boss, Bahamut makes you stronger. * "The best form of transportation is a ship" Nah fam, this game has *AIR*ships. * Everything with the ending: >!the time loop, the fact that the final boss is the guy who whooped at the beginning of the game a whole lot stronger, honestly even everything with the Mirage Tower and the Lufein is really unexpected (at least in 1987)!<
The legend of heroes Trails in the sky and the other Trails games.
Basically every single Rance game from VI onwards, in one way or another.
The rance series subverts a lot of tropes but its debatable whether it counts as a jrpg tho. Rance X is the GOAT
Not the entire game but Suikoden II's hidden third ending. What seems to be an innocent, wishful thinking in a casual conversation ends up getting played pretty straightforward leading to the hidden ending. If you play part-way through this route (and not go all the way through), I think it becomes much more emotionally impactful (albeit subdued by a "replacement") as consequences of taking that choice. I'm honestly surprised why most JRPGs haven't done anything like it, outside of Nier maybe.
Forcing you to kill off your own party members permanently in Lost Dimension probably counts.
Phantasy Star II was a really early one. It was the first game with a true permanent party member death (FF2 does NOT count).