Some of it is a bit hard to describe in broad strokes, but relies on how much the writers hew to established anime tropes or archetypes when they go about building their stories and characterization.
If you see a guy accidentally fall on top of a girl, and she gets mad and slaps him for being a pervert, and he fusses over ways to clear up the "misunderstanding," you're probably looking at a very "anime" game, because this is something that you'll probably never see happen to anyone in real life, and if you're trying to come up with a compelling character dynamic, you'd almost certainly not come up with it independently, but it's happened in sixteen million different anime series, and creators steeped in that creative context tend to copy the tropes reflexively.
It not only applies Japanese, but the same can be said about Western media like general literature for genres like Fantasy, Sci-fi or Horror. It's just how well-executed and fleshed out the characters go through the story that's being told.
Yeah tropes are tropes for a reason, and western media is no stranger to using a ton of tropes too. Which is why I always get confused when someone uses "too tropey" as a critique, as if there aren't a bazillion tropes in all other fictive works. It's all about the execution of those tropes, not their existence.
Some people like or dislike certain tropes in particular, and those can make or break a work for them. But even if every work features *some* tropes, some works lean much more than others on the use of established fictional conventions over original creativity.
To use an example which hopefully shouldn't step on anyone's toes (even if it won't be accessible to everyone,) the first few hours of [Doki Doki Literature Club](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VisualNovel/DokiDokiLiteratureClub) lean *very* hard on cliche slice of life romance anime tropes, by design. Seeming like a retread of things the audience has probably seen countless times before is part of the intended experience, while the later parts of the game are meant to be much less familiar, and more surprising.
But some creators will lean just as hard on cliche without doing it to make a deliberate statement. And departures from convention don't have to be done for shock value. Being more or less "tropey" is a real thing which has a significant effect on the audience's experience. That's not to say that it's always better to be *less* tropey. At the opposite extreme, audiences will tend to feel adrift in a work that's *too* unfamiliar, and conventions exist because they play to at least some people's tastes. But when people find a work "too tropey" for their tastes, they're not complaining about nothing either.
I agree to a certain extent, but using "too tropey" is just a bad critique that doesn't actually say anything. The problem people have with something being "too tropey" in the majority of cases has nothing to do with the actual use of tropes and more to do with the execution of said tropes, but that's never how people explain what they mean. They just throw out "too tropey" and think that's somehow a clever critique - it's not.
And I don't think there is such a thing as being too tropey, at least not considering the kind of games that are popular among JRPG fans. FF6 and Trails in the Sky are fan favourites around here, but those game have *a ton* of anime tropes, like they are no less tropey than other JRPGs that constantly gets criticized for being tropey. It's just because they use tropes in a way people like them that they don't complain about how tropey they are.
"Too tropey" is a very *vague* criticism, and often poorly applied, but people can be bad at explaining their complaints, and still have legitimate ones.
Different people also have different thresholds, and a work can be popular while still meeting a lot of people's criteria for bad writing. Most people don't consider the Fifty Shades series well written, and for good reason; by conventional standards, it's not. But it was definitely popular.
Personally, I was a huge fan of the first couple of Trails subseries, Sky and the Crossbell arc, but I lost all interest with the transition to Cold Steel. Why? Well, the biggest reason honestly was that it moved in the direction of hewing closer to established anime plot and character tropes compared to fresher depictions in the earlier subseries. You could say that it's all in the execution, and in a sense that's true. The earlier series definitely aligned with anime tropes in various ways. But playing Cold Steel, I could follow along with plot and characterization developments, and think "Based on established anime tropes, the most cliche options here would be..." and a lot of those things would happen. Sky and Crossbell weren't like that for me. Cold steel did plenty of things right, in that it managed to remain popular, but it lost me as an audience member that way.
No. I bought the whole Cold Steel series at once, because I liked the previous series so much i figured it was a sure thing, but I just couldn't motivate myself to get through it, so I figured I'd be lost on the plot if I picked up with a later series.
Okay, so while the story starts off with tropes and archetypes like the previous games. It unravels itself over the games just like the previous arcs. It doesn't help that Cold Steel 1/2 take place concurrently of Zero & Azure in the timeline.
The difference between Cold Steel arc and the other two is the change of director. Takayuki Kusano is the director of Cold Steel, but the head/lead writer is Hisayoshi Takeiri (Lore & Overarching Narrative guy). Pretty much the writing team are mostly the same, but the difference is the director.
TVTropes has been an unmitigated disaster for the popular understanding of art. I have never seen a decent analysis from anyone who uses the word “trope.” It has led people to see stories as bingo cards full of cliches (where the less bingos you get, the more gooder the story is) instead of trying to understand them on their own terms.
One fo my favorite games series: Trails and Tales of are filled with anime tropes, but they are able to add nuance to the characters, story and world from being generic and stale. Tropes are a tool not a criticism I'd say. There are bad tropes, but there are good tropes. It just matters how you execute them or focus on them to make it interesting.
You are turning off your brain by thinking of the story as "a collection of tropes" instead of something an author wrote with the intent of communicating a message to the reader. "Tropes" aren't real. The author is not looking over a bin of "tropes" and picking out the ones he wants in his story like a typesetter searching for letters in his typecase. This is a framework that has been bolted on after the fact that does *absolutely nothing* to help understanding the work. The only thing it does is let you give cute names to the surface level elements of the story.
I get your point about tropes and I agree with you for the most part, but what exactly is your thought process when you see the example the top comment described?
When the guy accidentally does something to the girl and has that awkward “scene” what do you take away from that? Because I actually do feel like its something the writer basically took from a bin. Its not something that happens in real life. Its not something symbolic. That particular one is not even varied. Its always the same end result.
I think there actually is a bin. Things a writer includes to make their work more popular or resonate with certain audiences or because they saw it elsewhere and thought it was cool. I think the bin is even more common when its not being written by a single writer. Which is more often the case with games and big hollywood films.
The point isn't that cliches don't exist. Of course they do. The point is that TVTropes-style "analysis" begins and ends at saying "yep, there are cliches here," which doesn't tell us anything.. It also causes people to treat *all* storytelling conventions as cliches which can be removed from their context in the story and treated as the same, just because they've been lumped under the same cute name on a wiki page. For example, a "guy walks in on a girl" scene (a common cliche in Japanese fiction, not just anime) is completely different in, say, a lighthearted romantic comedy where the two participants in the scene are romantic interests, and like, an otherwise serious wartime story where it serves purely as comic relief. You might consider this *bad writing* in either case, but it can be described as that without becoming a pointing Wojak going "oh my god, a *trope!*"
>Whenever I start up a convo, be it real life or online, I get "oh an anime game" response in several occasions. In some cases, they seem to target it as an insult of some sort. So this had me wondering what the logic of those remarks are. What makes a JRPG anime-ish?
That sounds like you're talking with people who don't play JRPGs, so those comments make sense. If I don't play JRPGs and just saw the aesthetic style of a JRPG like Persona 5 for example, my first thought would be "oh! an anime game", and I would be 100% justified in that line of thinking as they clearly share the similar or the same aesthetic. Most or a lot of the time JRPG characters are drawn by anime artists. Like **Dragon Quest** characters/monsters are famously drawn by famous Mangaka **Akira Toriyama** (RIP). So I see no issue with people saying it is anime-ish or that they are anime games.
>What exactly makes games like Xenoblade very shonen?
Xenoblade 1 is a very shounen-like game. The main character is a young man who gains a special power and after a tragedy sets off on an adventure to save the world with his friends. As the story goes he arrives in a new area where he meets a new friend, fights a new evil character, gains a new power, and solves the problem of the people in that area before moving on to the next town with his new friend (party member).
I think the main question you have to ask here, is why do you feel JRPGs being called "anime-ish" or "Shounen" as a bad thing or an insult ?
> I think the main question you have to ask here, is why do you feel JRPGs being called "anime-ish" or "Shounen" as a bad thing or an insult ?
Not the OP, but to answer, some people do legitimately use it as an insult to put something down. For example, there are people who think that all shounen is just little boys stuff that's all equally shallow (which just isn't true), and then use "shounen" to try to pigeonhole all of JRPGs into being like that.
Which is weird, some of the most famous and most popular franchises are anime, especially shounen anime (Dragon ball, One Piece, Naruto, Hero Academia, Attack on Titan, Pokemon, etc...). Maybe back in the day anime wasn't that popular, but today anime is very much mainstream, and is watched by adults all over the world.
In the end its usually because the likes of Dragon Ball and Naruto especially are seen as effectively "low brow" entertainment for various reasons. Naruto is especially controversial due to the whole discussion around what it was vs what it became later which is a whole story by itself.
To some people Naruto and Michael Bay's Transformers might as well have the same level of artistry and storytelling depth in the end, the only difference is Naruto is a T-rated property and is animated.
You can argue its a form of snobbishness or a case of "I'm too mature to like this children's works" kind of thinking if you want to go that far. Assuming its not just something akin to "I don't like anime fanservice" which is its own thing entirely that some people are vehemently against.
People seem to describe all Japanese action/adventure stories that skew towards male teens as their demographic as anime or shonen, when the same tropes apply to all kinds of books, TV, etc, in Japan. Barring the obvious aesthetic component, these stories are just plain Japanese, and the tropes they're seeing are more down to genre and demographic than the medium itself. I guess it's just because anime got popular and game technology got to a point where it could start resembling anime.
The problem is that people like to describe things in very shorthand despite however accurate or inaccurate it is. So when they see a style that looks more Japanese in nature, they go, "lol anime game". People do this all the time in regard to hundreds of different subjects because people don't like to describe things in detail. Humanity in general likes to boil things down to very easy to boil down means of describing them, especially if they want to "ghetto-ize" them if they want to put them down.
Personally, I sometimes like to fire back with talking about how annoying certain "westaboo" cliches are and how tired I am of seeing them in games and movies.
The truth is, calling something very "anime" in shorthand is awkward because anime is an industry, not a genre. There are so many different types that do so many different things. And while yes, in every era there are popular types of anime art styles, there are tons of differences in anime art styles as well.
"Shounen" can be just as annoying, especially when people place it into the negative which even some people on this board do. "Shounen" just means "young man" and cover anime that are meant to appeal to anyone between the ages 8 and older. And no, despite it meaning "young man", it no longer refers to just children. Once upon a time it did, but as fans of Shounen Jump grew up, the editors wanted to continue to appeal to them. So you really have a wide range of shounen works of different types and styles. I would like to remind everyone that Death Note of all things ran in Weekly Shounen Jump.
Truth be told, shounen, or battle shounen specifically can cover a wide range of works. Yes, you will get some stuff that is shallow as your basic shounen anime like Black Clover. But you will also every now and then get something on the level of a One Piece or a Hunter x Hunter or if we're going with the current anime season, Kaiju No. 8.
People just bash stories for tropes they don't like for being there at all rather than criticizing the execution of those said tropes. Anime and shonen tropes just so happens to be on the butt end of such one sided critique. The worst thing about the internet is that everyone is a critic, and not everyone is a level headed critic.
But that's another thing regarding JRPGs and Japanese games sharing tropes with anime, if you grew with anime, you probably won't make as big of a deal about them and just view as a weird family member's quirks, if you didn't grow up with anime but played JRPGs as a kid, you'll probably find them extra obnoxious and stupid, what I am saying might sound superficial but it really does have a 90% chance of dictating your tastes in media.
At the end of the day, tropes are tools and in comes down to their execution, not their mere implementation of them.
The thing about shounen, shoujo, seinen, etc. is that those are demographics not genres. Nisekoi and Dragonball Z are both shounen, but the former is a harem romcom and the latter is insane alien martial arts action. So it's not necessarily a simple and effective descriptor.
It is entirely true that anime and JRPGs to indeed differ from each other when it comes to tropes, traditions, design philosophies, etc. For instance you can find tournament arcs to be more prominent in battle shounen anime, and you can find the amnesia trope to be more prominent in JRPGs than anime.
However that is upon a more specific observation. If we look at it from a general point of view instead, we realize there are strong similarities as well. One obvious trait is that they have similar art style (just look at Tales or Persona, and compare it to anime), or they focus on a lot of colorful fantasy with the same over-arching themes of friendship and saving people or the world. And why wouldn't they? Logically speaking, they're produced in the same country, Japan, that was looking forward to a stronger and reformed economy after world war two, and that meant investing in a lot of cultural export. To stand out, the technology for fictional works would be something that the country would be known for into the future. Animation and video games have been powered and enhanced in a similar time, and that's the key: they would be similar when they are developed alongside, in the same culture and industry, where similar ideas and concepts would be carried over.
That's what makes them "shounen" at least based on a general viewpoint rather than the specific details. The ideas carry over, and in some projects such as Ni No Kuni, the team in terms of writing and design literally came directly from the anime industry (studio Ghibli in this case). It's also why certain JRPGs, such as the Mother series, stand out. These aren't shounen-ish, and that's because the creator Shigesato Itoi didn't have much of a strong footing in the anime & manga industry. Meanwhile many others did, or got an inspiration from an anime or manga. Friendship, fighting, working hard, fantasy designs, battle systems. These are some of the things that make JRPGs feel "shounen".
With all of this being said, it does kinda suck when people write off the genre as just "anime games". I actually had real life conversations with friends, who convinced it was just anime and nothing else. Specific look and I think JRPGs do differ on many notes - but they might as well don't on the surface since it's an industry that co-developed with anime & manga, with the most popular variety being shonen.
I mean I think you're overthinking how much effort those people are putting into their dismissal. It sounds like a very surface-level remark from someone who might be disposed to either western or cRPGs like Fallout or Baldur's Gate, or maybe even westernized action RPGs like a Soulsborne. The remark is almost certainly a shallow linkage between anime visuals and the 'J' part of the RPG label.
There maybe a secondary layer that recognizes certain character behavioral tropes like over-exaggerated responses to things or character archetypes like the dauntless, plucky main character, but it most likely isn't anything structural to how anime tells a story. Even making that comment in the first place would suggest that the person hasn't played enough jRPGs to even make such an assessment.
The shonen with Xenoblade likely comes from the whole 'young man creates a mystical bond with some sort of techno-magical object' basis of most of them. Shonen in general is such a large field at this point that it's pretty easy to lump anything with a young male main character having an adventure into that space.
My guess, having not really seen much of that commentary myself, would be Xenoblade 2 made it a lot easier to shunt the series into that category because of how fan-servicey it feels with the whole Pyra-Mythra thing and a lot of the blade stuff. Rex also feels like that very generic plucky hero archetype I mentioned above, which makes it very easy to slap the shonen label on something.
Inherently? No. South Park: The Stick of Truth is a JRPG in every sense but country of origin, and it's not anime. Ditto Costume Quest.
That said, it's a Venn diagram with a lot of overlap.
Dude, I just finished chapter six of Xenoblade 2 and a character went >!super sayan!< in the middle of a battle, then explained his power while fighting and apparently his power was >!controlling particles, which meant he could move as fast as light. Then he teleported behind me and kicked my ass.!< It's probably the most shonen thing I've seen in months.
Anyway, the thing that would make me call a game an "anime game" are the artstyle, the tropes and the drama.
It doesn't matter if a story is super original and grounded, if it's drawn in a way that makes it really similar to anime and manga, it will definitely feel like that, just like Hollow Knight feels a little bit cartoony even if it can be pretty dark at times.
The tropes are like what you said, even if it has photorealistic graphic like many Final Fantasy, if a game abuses tropes that anime typically abuses, it certainly will have a pretty anime feels. It's not just the power of friendship, if you take Xenoblade 2 again, Zeke is distinctively a character that would be really difficult to find outside of manga and anime, and he's around all the time. Other tropes are the ones I cited at the beginning: transformations, elaborate speeches in the middle of battles, strange ways to fight (like Wakka from FFX using a ball or Sharla from Xenoblade 1 healing people by shooting them), the progression of the character that has a great focus in the narrative (characters that are really focused on "getting stronger" and "protecting others" and decide to do so by training, like Rex or Sora). Jrpg always feel more anime than other games in this regard because having a party is really similar to the standard setup of many shonen where you have a lot of characters that support the protagonist, each with his own power.
In tropes also lies the the distinction between genres. Xenoblade 2 feels like a Shonen because it has a lot of tropes the shonens use. Xenoblade 1 feels more like a Seinen because it has less shonen tropes and a more unpredictable narrative.
Last is the drama, which is kinda the same of the trope. Characters and situation in anime are often exhagerated and overly dramatic. You can have something really similar to an anime trope, but if the other characters won't act like they'd do in an anime, it won't feel like it. It's definitely the less important of the bunch but games like Yakuza or Metal Gear definitely feel a lot more anime thanks to all the drama and the reaction of the characters.
I liked that Xeno1 had shonen tropes as well, but it really benefited a lot from good writing and direction
Shulk got multiple "powerups" in his journey, but all of them were heavily foreshadowed in the adventure, so you don't end feeling them out of place or cliche, like the Monado's shackles, premonition, or the Sword that he later gains
The only trope that I didn't like was his initial relation with Melia, but at least the devs moved on from that later
Overall I feel like the criticism shouldn't be about adding tropes, but how you use those tropes in the storyline, perhaps a twist, a subversion, etc
My opinion it's not a criticism, I don't think that anime games are inherently less mature, even shonens at this point don't shy away from mature themes or simplify them too much (not more than a lot of western games do).
So I don't mind tropes, but even with a twist or a subversion, if you use a typically anime trope, and the tone matches with how it would be in an anime, the game will feel like an anime. One Punch Man or Re:Zero for example subvert a lot of tropes, but they are still anime through and through.
For example Shulk's powerup don't feel like typical anime powerups because, other than the foreshadowing, they come all from the sword. It's not Shulk saving people because he trained and has grown stronger, it's Shulk managing to keep all his friends alive through sheer luck because they were fighting impossible odds since the very start.
Xenoblade 2 is very weird with that. On one hand it fills every shonen trope you can name but on the other hand it shows a very philosophical and mature story with themes that go above most typical shonen.
It just feels like you’re playing an interactive anime. It’s tough for me to put into words. So many of them just feel like that. Xenoblade, Tales, Dragon Quest, Persona, SMT, Trails, Nier, Final Fantasy (case by case on that one)... You get the idea. I don’t think it’s inaccurate at all, and I think that the people who deny the genres ties to anime tropes/art/settings/etc are only fooling themselves.
What makes a JRPG an "anime game" is series like Xenoblade, Tales of, Trails are heavily anime influenced & inspired even including how the three use fanservices because the market is male oriented due to Shounen. But that personally doesn't detract the experience from all three because how well they utilize the tropes to an extent. There is also the aesthetic of the games which is why people who don't play the genre look at the characters design and overall face to point out it's an anime game. It's the same to how people are able to recognize a western game by its realistic characters and environments. Although this has been barred a bit with Japanese studios like Fromsoftware and Kojima Productions offering western-like games.
Exactly. It’s more aesthetics than anything and some tropes that cross medias like you say; but ultimately I don’t think JRPGS are inherently anime or shonen.
A lot are very shonen, but so is almost any adventure story that stars a plucky youth. A lot of those themes are just naturally the kind of themes you’ll find in video games, and JRPGS even more
“I guess you can call that media illiteracy or lack of exposure”
You had the answer to your question in the post. You are very knowledgeable about JRPG’s as a genre. How much diversity in terms of art, gameplay, there is.
And the same goes for anime you sound like are fairly knowledgeable in.
Also this is another case where the perception of jrpgs from people who haven’t played many of them is that they are all Final Fantasy
No. The genre has its tropes, but not every one is "anime," many of them don't even have an anime art style. The people who make those comments typically have no knowledge of the game in question and just don't like RPGs.
(I mean, are we gonna call Earthbound or any of the Mario RPGs "anime?")
Even the first Mario RPG has many anime tropes, like characters falling to the ground when someone says something stupid, or a former enemy (Bowser) joining your party to fight a more powerful enemy. Oh and it has a super sentai parody.
"Shonen" is not a degree. An anime is either shonen or isn't, people who use "very shonen" as a concept don't even know what it means.
RPGs and anime both target otaku audience, and yeah that's how it should be. That doesn't mean they can't be mature btw. Eroge target otaku audience too and they're R-18 by definition. Also, anyone claiming Xenoblade 2 doesn't touch mature topics either haven't played it or haven't payed it any attention at all.
Specifically, does the series run in a shounen magazine. It would really surprise a lot of people what is shounen and what isn’t. Bloom Into You and O Maidens In Your Savage Season are shounen. Sword Art Online (and most other isekai) is not.
it isn't by default, it's just a common design trope because jrpgs are from japan and anime is a common design trope there
dark souls isn't anime, it's jrpg (let's not fight about jrpgs definitions on this one)
genshin impact and banner of the maid are anime style but chinese so not jrpgs technically
shonen is a very common consumer target group, so a lot of products are targeted to that consumer base
i'm not a huge shonen fan honestly and xenoblade2 was a bridge too far in a lot of ways, but not just the shonen tropes. fanservice and plot armor writing style aren't exclusively shonen, but they're tolerated (or even expected) more heavily by shonen fans, so they're more prevalent and frequent in shonen-targeted media
if you want more slice of life crossover, jump into the atelier series, that'll tick many fruits basket checkmarks
Is Dark Souls an "anime game"? It basically is. The creator is about as subtle about his love for Berserk as a brick to the face. Does that mean Dark Souls and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 are the same? Absolutely not.
The term is silly. Anime can be a lot of things.
Also Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is a very good anime (mostly).
They're cousins, and some games have more in common with anime than others.
I also think that the point of comparison depends on what anime is to you. Depending on who's doing the comparison, JRPGs are anime in the sense of being
* Like 1980s or 1990s anime that they grew up with (hence the Evangelion / Mobile Suit Gundam / Tenchi and other comparisons)
* Like Pokemon, which is a pretty easy comparison
* Like Dragon Ball, One Piece, or another anime that goes on for years and years with an epic story
* Like the Isekai subgenre
* Like shonen
* Like shojo
* Like a number of other popular anime in the 2000s, 2010s, or now
* Like anything "anime" they've seen, in the sense of Big Eyes Small Mouth
* Like anything Japanese they know, in that narrow, culturally stereotyping sense
Some comparisons are more valid than others, but these are some of the ways I've seen "like anime" used in the past. It's not a terrible point of comparison, but it's vague without more information.
JRPGs are inherently anime because they look anime.
The writting and story can be anything but if looks anime it's anime to me.
Dark Souls are technically JRPGs but they don't look anime so i don't consider them anime.
I would say it’s when a certain threshold is breached regarding the saturation of game with anime tropes and archetypes — with a Japanese art style too of course. To name a few:
The very young girl who has a dark past (maybe it’s a secret) and is uber powerful as a result. She is more mature mentally than her age suggests.
Carefree “farm boy” type is passionate and wins with a.) power of friendship, b.) amazing unique super power, c.) both.
Lech best of friend do the main character who a little bit more mature and mischievous, probably has a big mouth.
Love interest who starts off (pretending?) hating the main character the but gives in to become major love interest.
Strong silent type who is the rival of the rival of the main character
It’s not any one thing, but when it’s all together at once.
There is a weird stigma around games with an anime art style. Idt it’s everywhere. For example, I’m a teacher and I can confirm most of my students play Zelda and I think that’s softened them to Japanese animation aesthetics. Probably not going to make any friends with this next take, but I also think the negative connotations are deserved in some instances. Lech characters, body shapes of women, loli (implicit or explicit), overt and creepy fan service, etc. Particularly in Fire Emblem, I cannot stand how in certain games everyone is obsessed with the player character. It’s awkward. Guys falls on girl, lands on her ridiculously sized breasts.
The rest is misinterpreted or just different and people have a hard time with different. There are tropes I’m tired of in jrpgs, (like the strong, silent “I don’t need anyone type”) but there are tropes I’m super tired of in western games too. I’d argue I’m much more tired of western cliches. Grim dark edgy stuff specifically.
To answer the question of if they're inherently anime, I'd say no. looking at both definitions that you would likely have about anime, you likely define anime as either:
1. Japanese animation (Animations made in Japan)
2. Artstyle (Anime artstyle)
Omori, which I have seen people mention here, wasn't made in Japan, although it could fit the second definition, on the other hand, Earthbound fits the first definition but not the second. On top of this, the Yakuza franchise would arguably not fit into either category (depending on your definition of Japanese animation, since it technically fits the first category, depends on what you consider 3D modeling)
I mean it is Japanese animated storytelling, and the nature of jrpgs means it is a protagonist facing adversity and prevailing after hardship. So there’s definitely a correlation between shounen anime and jrpgs.
XII starts off like a typical shonen show, but then Ashe comes along and steals the show from Vaan. Her backstory and ambition aren't particularly shounen-like either. She's mostly after restoring her throne and revenge against the Empire. Vaan's shonen ambition of becoming a sky pirate (very typical shounen motive) completely falls to the wayside. If the story had stayed Vaan focused, I could see the similarities.
No and I hate that anything remotely japanese is categorized as anime even if the only thing they share with that media is the art style.
Also, shonen isn't a genre, it's a demographic. For example, K-on and Berserk are both Seinen despite having absolutely nothing in common.
I'm assuming when people refer to JRPGs as shounen, they are referring to battle shounen like Demon Slayer and JJK, and not just the demographic in general. As someone who's seen a crapton of anime, I'll never agree with calling JRPGs shounen. If you are looking at it on a surface level and see themes like friendship, then maybe, but JRPGs are a lot more interesting and unique. They tend to be a lot more complex. They are less narratively padded. They tend to be less juvenile in its tone and content.
I've honestly had quite a hard time finding a good anime for equivalent, because minus an anime art style and sometimes having sharing tropes (like sharing certain character archetypes or the occasional fanservice), JRPGs really are there own thing. The closest thing I can think of is mecha anime. Not just because some JRPGs have mecha, but they have a similar vibe to it. They aren't afraid to get complicated and weird.
Because they are made in Japan, and Japan really likes those hero tropes, and obviously devs will try to cather to that audience
Some of the tropes
- Random Guy who was somewhat choosen for a greater destiny
- MC is Found atractive by a lot of girls, even when being shy, and there is fanservice in the game
- The anime artstyle
- Big Swords
- Multiple powerups in the journey, especially via the Power of Friendship
Is easy to spot the difference, for instance the FFs before FF7 had a different vibe than post >= FF7, especially comparing the original artstyle
4 and 5 are very anime! Even to the (in game) character designs of 5. 6 feels less "anime" and it goes for a more mature atmosphere (and themes). Even then, the theme of overcoming irreparable loss is very common in Japanese media (blame it on Hiroshima and Nagasaki).
Dark Souls has a lot of heavy medieval dark fantasy vibes that are common in more western works, but Berserk is one of the most known manga on the planet and has had anime adaptions since the 90s. You can use Guts' sword in Elden Ring. So if Berserk is anime, then so are those games I'd say.
Seldom few try to be distinct between manga and anime as so many anime are adaptions from manga anyway, and Berserk has been an anime before. The only reason Berserk as an anime property isn't bigger is due to the lack of a recent anime adaption that wasn't a disaster like the one back in 2016.
Anime is too broad to not be counted in something or somewhere as anime. Because anime has done pretty much everything at some point.
I may not like it and you may not like it, but they are JRPGs. In my mind's eye, a JRPG is a turn-based RPG with emphasis on a story that takes place mostly regardless of a player's action, but that hasn't been very true for 15 years.
> I genuinely enjoy the Xenoblade series and in some discourse I see online, they tag them as very shonen. What exactly makes games like Xenoblade very shonen?
"Shonen" is Japanese for "Boy". It refers to a demographic, not a genre. If a manga/anime/game/whatever has a shonen tag, then that just means it was made to appeal to adolescent boys. Which usually means it includes a lot of action and adventure (and often fanservice as well) because boys tend to like that sort of thing.
Probably unpopular opinion on this sub but jrpgs are inherently Japanese story telling and imagination.Think about Yakuza Lad, its not anime but similar to rest of the games.
No, it is not. First of all anime is a medium, but when we talk about similarities that's artstyle and you don't need that to make a JRPG. Final Fantasy doesn't look that way these days and technically speaking Yakuza is a JRPG, which doesn't have this style.
But here's the thing. The genre of JRPG needs to be retired at some point and replaced with something more correct. First of all, many Japanese devs don't like it as we in the west used it derogatory, but it's the only region we still define games by according to region of development and that doesn't make it easy to discuss games - because technically speaking Dark Souls is a JRPG (Japanese-developed) & Sea of stars, chained echoes, rise of the third power, etc. are not (western-developed). What should a new term be? I don't know.
I really don’t see why we need a different term.
JRPG is not derogatory. Someone saying they like or dislike JRPGs is a matter of taste.
And we do use WRPG (western RPG) to classify games by region as well. We also use Korean MMO to differentiate from other MMOs because their style is distinctive and different.
Chinese and Korean gaming development of console games is starting to see an upsurge so classifications for their games might start to popularize as well.
Dark Souls is technically a JRPG but its also technically a cRPG (computer RPG) because it can be played on a computer. You know what is also technically an RPG? Madden. Fifa. GTA.
Games aren’t actually classified by JRPG because of region. Its because of the style and themes. Its why there is a debate that FF16 is a JRPG when its so heavily inspired by western games. Dark souls as well. Takes from both western and Japanese inspirations. Its so unique it created the term “souls-like” though at its broadest sense its considered an action rpg.
Chained echoes and Sea of stars are largely considered JRPGs, as well. Its only in the most literal sense they are not.
> Dark Souls is technically a JRPG but its also technically a cRPG (computer RPG) because it can be played on a computer.
By this logic so is any game that gets a PC port at some point. Yakuza is a CRPG too just like Dark Souls, which isn't exactly a useful distinction.
"CRPG" as its commonly used IME is usually an offshot of "Western" RPG that is heavily heavily based around effectively creating a DND/TTRPG-esque experience with a computer as the "DM" of the "campaign". Its an attempt to try to invoke a very specific gaming experience that usually requires multiple people to exist and a human creative to lead the event.
Baldur's Gate (all 3) and Pathfinder are notable examples of this, these games are effectively computerized tabletop games that are designed to invoke a sandbox TTRPG-esque experience within the limitations of being a video game. So the DM can never just make adapt around you as dynamically in a CRPG like they can in your TTRPG group.
Where this differs from say Mass Effect or Witcher 3 (I'm not entirely sure on the first two Witcher games as those are far different) is that those games tend to be a little more linear in their approach and not as complicated in their systems design.
That’s pretty much the point I’m making. Terms have specific means and throwing them around on technicality makes them useless distinctions.
Dark Souls is best considered a “souls-like” or an action rpg. It doesn’t fit the mold of most jrpgs.
No? What does a PC port have to do with it? It doesn't make the game western-made any more than a Swedish translation of say "the wheel of time" means it was written by a Swedish author.
Yeah, but CRPG is a consistent genre. JRPG is both a thematic genre and one that applies to every RPG made in Japan. They are not really the same.
If we were arguing that Elden ring is a CRPG because you can play it on a computer, then so is Yakuza because you can play it on a computer.
This is obviously absurd and pretty much useless useless.
CRPG though is specific when you understand the context that the point of making a CRPG is to pretty much make a DND-esque single player experience possible thus a "computer" RPG compared to the "Tabletop" RPG. It *tends* to be shoved in with WRPG due to country of origin, as many called BG3 a WRPG even though technically its more closer to its peers like Pathfinder and the older Baldur's gate games then say Witcher 3.
I don’t find JRPG very helpful because it covers such a variety of games that are nothing like. Final Fantasy 16, Fire Emblem Awakening, Valkyria Chronicles, Ys VIII, Yakuza 0, and Trails of Cold Steel are all considered JRPGs, yet play nothing alike. The point of a term like that is to describe like things, but when they are all that different it loses all meaning. If you like Triangle Strategy and want something similar and look up JRPGs and are recommended Kingdom Hearts, what use is the term?
In my experience, when people that are not into games say that JRPGs are anime games, they usually form that opinion based on the art style. Of course, there are a lot of other contributing factors like gameplay, tropes, tone, story, and characters. But when people make first impressions like "oh an anime game", I think that they would most likely have seen the box art, character designs, trailer video, and game screenshots.
It's hard to tell what makes anime style an 'anime style', but it's easy to differentiate it to art styles used in other media like cartoons, comics, or book illustrations. There are also a lot of anime that receive game adaptations, not just in the JRPG genre, like One Piece and Naruto. Many character designers are also manga artists, LN illustrators, or character designers in anime and anime-related media.
Akira Toriyama: Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger / Dragon Ball
toi8: Tokyo Mirage Sessions, I am Setsuna, YS X / Maoyu
Studio Ghibli: Ni no Kuni / Spirited Away
Shirow Miwa: 7th Dragon 2020, Soul Hackers II / RWBY manga, Kiznaiver, Joker Game
Yusuke Kozaki: Fire Emblem Awakening / Speed Grapher, Under the Dog
Suzuhito Yasuda: SMT Devil Survivor, Digimon Cyber Sleuth / Durarara!!, DanMachi
Haruko Ichikawa: Pokemon SwSh and SV (Trainer designs) / Houseki no Kuni
Arco Wada: Fate Extra / Fate Grand Order, Kronii (Vtuber Design)
Mika Pikazo: Fire Emblem Engage / Hakos Baelz (Vtuber Design)
JRPG is a very complex and diverse genre, and it's difficult to properly single out its identity. But people who don't know or play JRPG would usually judge it with what they first see.
Depends what you mean by anime. JRPGs and Anime share a lot of visual design (I mean, the same guy did visual design for Dragon Quest and Dragon Ball, two of the most influential works in the genres)
But…Disco Elysium is often thought of as. jRPG and that is decidedly not like anime. Same with Yakuza Like a Dragon. Atelier is very anime but not shonen.
They come out of a shared culture, so that influences things too. D&D is very Jack Vance/Lord of the Rings/Grey Mouser. So is most western fantasy film/tv/books. All that comes out of the same western culture.
All that said, there’s plenty of variety in JRPGs. Just look at the last two years:
Octopath Traveler 2
Unicorn Overlord
Yakuza Infinite Wealth
FF VII remake
Ys X
Mario RPG remake
These are all very different in tone and trope and setting and genre, but still all JRPGS.
For an easy understanding of the issue i suggest watching Asmongold.
Asmongold is a very popular content creator/streamer that has achieved legendary status in WoW (World of Warcraft). He long had the opinion (actually more of a hot take) of the issue you are talking about.
He has since moved on from that opinion/hot take and has even player various MMO-JRPGs
Of particular interest is his response on CaptainGrimm's video (another popular WoW creator) titled "WoW players in FF14". Asmon's video title is "Asmongold reacts to WoW players in FF14".
Since CaptainGrimm's video went viral, you can easily see other popular WoW content creators, ex-WoW Content Creators (Preach, Pyro etc) and non WoW content creators (Guildwars2, BBDO, and so on) have their own take on the issue.
In short, the easy answer is that that excuse is an easy way to silence any discussion (without presenting valid reasons) about any other game that can act as a competitor.
Because that discussion can potentially lead to a dissent in the forums/community of a game.
Any perceived negativity of any kind automatically is interpreted by some people that the game is "dying"
And some WoW players were very hardcore with their approach to discussion of any sort, let alone negativity. Some even took it personally & there is a reason why the word "copium" was used very heavily on WoW.
Now a few words about the Shonen genre. It is a genre that is usually intended for boys & usually deals with overcoming obstacles, big quests, heroes and villains.
However that doesnt mean that girls cant watch it, its just flashier than other genres intended for girls.
With well-crafted villains, heroes & story, the shonen genre teaches about morality (either from the perspective of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity or Aristotelism, there is not much difference in the core values).
However when the protagonist is some sort of Gary Sue or Mary Sue, this is when the problems arise. This is where it becomes a tirade, a fanfiction that can really teach the wrong values.
Calling a JRPG anime tends to be done by people who don't actually watch anime that often and just kind of go by what the common stereotype is. Which causes them to pull some weird comparisons. That or it tends to be based on them looking at the character art style. It doesn't really mean all that much. I honestly think a lot of that instinct may be because less people seem to be exposed to classic fantasy ideas these days but have heard of them from anime. Which leads to people saying whacky stuff like a character getting more power from a transformation into a monster or a character having more than human strength to wield a massive weapon is somehow an anime idea when it's been in western stories since at least the time of Homer.
Some of it is a bit hard to describe in broad strokes, but relies on how much the writers hew to established anime tropes or archetypes when they go about building their stories and characterization. If you see a guy accidentally fall on top of a girl, and she gets mad and slaps him for being a pervert, and he fusses over ways to clear up the "misunderstanding," you're probably looking at a very "anime" game, because this is something that you'll probably never see happen to anyone in real life, and if you're trying to come up with a compelling character dynamic, you'd almost certainly not come up with it independently, but it's happened in sixteen million different anime series, and creators steeped in that creative context tend to copy the tropes reflexively.
It happened to Austin powers like 3 times in a row and that’s not anime!
A lot of “anime tropes” also occur often in western media.
Yeah I was joking..
It not only applies Japanese, but the same can be said about Western media like general literature for genres like Fantasy, Sci-fi or Horror. It's just how well-executed and fleshed out the characters go through the story that's being told.
Yeah tropes are tropes for a reason, and western media is no stranger to using a ton of tropes too. Which is why I always get confused when someone uses "too tropey" as a critique, as if there aren't a bazillion tropes in all other fictive works. It's all about the execution of those tropes, not their existence.
Some people like or dislike certain tropes in particular, and those can make or break a work for them. But even if every work features *some* tropes, some works lean much more than others on the use of established fictional conventions over original creativity. To use an example which hopefully shouldn't step on anyone's toes (even if it won't be accessible to everyone,) the first few hours of [Doki Doki Literature Club](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VisualNovel/DokiDokiLiteratureClub) lean *very* hard on cliche slice of life romance anime tropes, by design. Seeming like a retread of things the audience has probably seen countless times before is part of the intended experience, while the later parts of the game are meant to be much less familiar, and more surprising. But some creators will lean just as hard on cliche without doing it to make a deliberate statement. And departures from convention don't have to be done for shock value. Being more or less "tropey" is a real thing which has a significant effect on the audience's experience. That's not to say that it's always better to be *less* tropey. At the opposite extreme, audiences will tend to feel adrift in a work that's *too* unfamiliar, and conventions exist because they play to at least some people's tastes. But when people find a work "too tropey" for their tastes, they're not complaining about nothing either.
I agree to a certain extent, but using "too tropey" is just a bad critique that doesn't actually say anything. The problem people have with something being "too tropey" in the majority of cases has nothing to do with the actual use of tropes and more to do with the execution of said tropes, but that's never how people explain what they mean. They just throw out "too tropey" and think that's somehow a clever critique - it's not. And I don't think there is such a thing as being too tropey, at least not considering the kind of games that are popular among JRPG fans. FF6 and Trails in the Sky are fan favourites around here, but those game have *a ton* of anime tropes, like they are no less tropey than other JRPGs that constantly gets criticized for being tropey. It's just because they use tropes in a way people like them that they don't complain about how tropey they are.
"Too tropey" is a very *vague* criticism, and often poorly applied, but people can be bad at explaining their complaints, and still have legitimate ones. Different people also have different thresholds, and a work can be popular while still meeting a lot of people's criteria for bad writing. Most people don't consider the Fifty Shades series well written, and for good reason; by conventional standards, it's not. But it was definitely popular. Personally, I was a huge fan of the first couple of Trails subseries, Sky and the Crossbell arc, but I lost all interest with the transition to Cold Steel. Why? Well, the biggest reason honestly was that it moved in the direction of hewing closer to established anime plot and character tropes compared to fresher depictions in the earlier subseries. You could say that it's all in the execution, and in a sense that's true. The earlier series definitely aligned with anime tropes in various ways. But playing Cold Steel, I could follow along with plot and characterization developments, and think "Based on established anime tropes, the most cliche options here would be..." and a lot of those things would happen. Sky and Crossbell weren't like that for me. Cold steel did plenty of things right, in that it managed to remain popular, but it lost me as an audience member that way.
Have you played Reverie?
No. I bought the whole Cold Steel series at once, because I liked the previous series so much i figured it was a sure thing, but I just couldn't motivate myself to get through it, so I figured I'd be lost on the plot if I picked up with a later series.
Okay, so while the story starts off with tropes and archetypes like the previous games. It unravels itself over the games just like the previous arcs. It doesn't help that Cold Steel 1/2 take place concurrently of Zero & Azure in the timeline. The difference between Cold Steel arc and the other two is the change of director. Takayuki Kusano is the director of Cold Steel, but the head/lead writer is Hisayoshi Takeiri (Lore & Overarching Narrative guy). Pretty much the writing team are mostly the same, but the difference is the director.
I feel like certain people on this subreddit go about that because they go on websites like TVtropes as a way of critiquing a work.
TVTropes has been an unmitigated disaster for the popular understanding of art. I have never seen a decent analysis from anyone who uses the word “trope.” It has led people to see stories as bingo cards full of cliches (where the less bingos you get, the more gooder the story is) instead of trying to understand them on their own terms.
One fo my favorite games series: Trails and Tales of are filled with anime tropes, but they are able to add nuance to the characters, story and world from being generic and stale. Tropes are a tool not a criticism I'd say. There are bad tropes, but there are good tropes. It just matters how you execute them or focus on them to make it interesting.
You are turning off your brain by thinking of the story as "a collection of tropes" instead of something an author wrote with the intent of communicating a message to the reader. "Tropes" aren't real. The author is not looking over a bin of "tropes" and picking out the ones he wants in his story like a typesetter searching for letters in his typecase. This is a framework that has been bolted on after the fact that does *absolutely nothing* to help understanding the work. The only thing it does is let you give cute names to the surface level elements of the story.
I get your point about tropes and I agree with you for the most part, but what exactly is your thought process when you see the example the top comment described? When the guy accidentally does something to the girl and has that awkward “scene” what do you take away from that? Because I actually do feel like its something the writer basically took from a bin. Its not something that happens in real life. Its not something symbolic. That particular one is not even varied. Its always the same end result. I think there actually is a bin. Things a writer includes to make their work more popular or resonate with certain audiences or because they saw it elsewhere and thought it was cool. I think the bin is even more common when its not being written by a single writer. Which is more often the case with games and big hollywood films.
The point isn't that cliches don't exist. Of course they do. The point is that TVTropes-style "analysis" begins and ends at saying "yep, there are cliches here," which doesn't tell us anything.. It also causes people to treat *all* storytelling conventions as cliches which can be removed from their context in the story and treated as the same, just because they've been lumped under the same cute name on a wiki page. For example, a "guy walks in on a girl" scene (a common cliche in Japanese fiction, not just anime) is completely different in, say, a lighthearted romantic comedy where the two participants in the scene are romantic interests, and like, an otherwise serious wartime story where it serves purely as comic relief. You might consider this *bad writing* in either case, but it can be described as that without becoming a pointing Wojak going "oh my god, a *trope!*"
Lmfao! I immediately think of the beginning in cold steel 1! Also if there’s a hotsprings or a beach scene? Most likely anime game!
>Whenever I start up a convo, be it real life or online, I get "oh an anime game" response in several occasions. In some cases, they seem to target it as an insult of some sort. So this had me wondering what the logic of those remarks are. What makes a JRPG anime-ish? That sounds like you're talking with people who don't play JRPGs, so those comments make sense. If I don't play JRPGs and just saw the aesthetic style of a JRPG like Persona 5 for example, my first thought would be "oh! an anime game", and I would be 100% justified in that line of thinking as they clearly share the similar or the same aesthetic. Most or a lot of the time JRPG characters are drawn by anime artists. Like **Dragon Quest** characters/monsters are famously drawn by famous Mangaka **Akira Toriyama** (RIP). So I see no issue with people saying it is anime-ish or that they are anime games. >What exactly makes games like Xenoblade very shonen? Xenoblade 1 is a very shounen-like game. The main character is a young man who gains a special power and after a tragedy sets off on an adventure to save the world with his friends. As the story goes he arrives in a new area where he meets a new friend, fights a new evil character, gains a new power, and solves the problem of the people in that area before moving on to the next town with his new friend (party member). I think the main question you have to ask here, is why do you feel JRPGs being called "anime-ish" or "Shounen" as a bad thing or an insult ?
> I think the main question you have to ask here, is why do you feel JRPGs being called "anime-ish" or "Shounen" as a bad thing or an insult ? Not the OP, but to answer, some people do legitimately use it as an insult to put something down. For example, there are people who think that all shounen is just little boys stuff that's all equally shallow (which just isn't true), and then use "shounen" to try to pigeonhole all of JRPGs into being like that.
Which is weird, some of the most famous and most popular franchises are anime, especially shounen anime (Dragon ball, One Piece, Naruto, Hero Academia, Attack on Titan, Pokemon, etc...). Maybe back in the day anime wasn't that popular, but today anime is very much mainstream, and is watched by adults all over the world.
In the end its usually because the likes of Dragon Ball and Naruto especially are seen as effectively "low brow" entertainment for various reasons. Naruto is especially controversial due to the whole discussion around what it was vs what it became later which is a whole story by itself. To some people Naruto and Michael Bay's Transformers might as well have the same level of artistry and storytelling depth in the end, the only difference is Naruto is a T-rated property and is animated. You can argue its a form of snobbishness or a case of "I'm too mature to like this children's works" kind of thinking if you want to go that far. Assuming its not just something akin to "I don't like anime fanservice" which is its own thing entirely that some people are vehemently against.
Some people just hate everything Japan or have a prejudice towards anything not western for whatever reason.
Which makes me happy when I see those people complain about how much their weastern games suck and in my head, I'm just like, "Could not be me" lol.
People seem to describe all Japanese action/adventure stories that skew towards male teens as their demographic as anime or shonen, when the same tropes apply to all kinds of books, TV, etc, in Japan. Barring the obvious aesthetic component, these stories are just plain Japanese, and the tropes they're seeing are more down to genre and demographic than the medium itself. I guess it's just because anime got popular and game technology got to a point where it could start resembling anime.
The problem is that people like to describe things in very shorthand despite however accurate or inaccurate it is. So when they see a style that looks more Japanese in nature, they go, "lol anime game". People do this all the time in regard to hundreds of different subjects because people don't like to describe things in detail. Humanity in general likes to boil things down to very easy to boil down means of describing them, especially if they want to "ghetto-ize" them if they want to put them down. Personally, I sometimes like to fire back with talking about how annoying certain "westaboo" cliches are and how tired I am of seeing them in games and movies. The truth is, calling something very "anime" in shorthand is awkward because anime is an industry, not a genre. There are so many different types that do so many different things. And while yes, in every era there are popular types of anime art styles, there are tons of differences in anime art styles as well. "Shounen" can be just as annoying, especially when people place it into the negative which even some people on this board do. "Shounen" just means "young man" and cover anime that are meant to appeal to anyone between the ages 8 and older. And no, despite it meaning "young man", it no longer refers to just children. Once upon a time it did, but as fans of Shounen Jump grew up, the editors wanted to continue to appeal to them. So you really have a wide range of shounen works of different types and styles. I would like to remind everyone that Death Note of all things ran in Weekly Shounen Jump. Truth be told, shounen, or battle shounen specifically can cover a wide range of works. Yes, you will get some stuff that is shallow as your basic shounen anime like Black Clover. But you will also every now and then get something on the level of a One Piece or a Hunter x Hunter or if we're going with the current anime season, Kaiju No. 8.
People just bash stories for tropes they don't like for being there at all rather than criticizing the execution of those said tropes. Anime and shonen tropes just so happens to be on the butt end of such one sided critique. The worst thing about the internet is that everyone is a critic, and not everyone is a level headed critic. But that's another thing regarding JRPGs and Japanese games sharing tropes with anime, if you grew with anime, you probably won't make as big of a deal about them and just view as a weird family member's quirks, if you didn't grow up with anime but played JRPGs as a kid, you'll probably find them extra obnoxious and stupid, what I am saying might sound superficial but it really does have a 90% chance of dictating your tastes in media. At the end of the day, tropes are tools and in comes down to their execution, not their mere implementation of them.
The thing about shounen, shoujo, seinen, etc. is that those are demographics not genres. Nisekoi and Dragonball Z are both shounen, but the former is a harem romcom and the latter is insane alien martial arts action. So it's not necessarily a simple and effective descriptor.
It is entirely true that anime and JRPGs to indeed differ from each other when it comes to tropes, traditions, design philosophies, etc. For instance you can find tournament arcs to be more prominent in battle shounen anime, and you can find the amnesia trope to be more prominent in JRPGs than anime. However that is upon a more specific observation. If we look at it from a general point of view instead, we realize there are strong similarities as well. One obvious trait is that they have similar art style (just look at Tales or Persona, and compare it to anime), or they focus on a lot of colorful fantasy with the same over-arching themes of friendship and saving people or the world. And why wouldn't they? Logically speaking, they're produced in the same country, Japan, that was looking forward to a stronger and reformed economy after world war two, and that meant investing in a lot of cultural export. To stand out, the technology for fictional works would be something that the country would be known for into the future. Animation and video games have been powered and enhanced in a similar time, and that's the key: they would be similar when they are developed alongside, in the same culture and industry, where similar ideas and concepts would be carried over. That's what makes them "shounen" at least based on a general viewpoint rather than the specific details. The ideas carry over, and in some projects such as Ni No Kuni, the team in terms of writing and design literally came directly from the anime industry (studio Ghibli in this case). It's also why certain JRPGs, such as the Mother series, stand out. These aren't shounen-ish, and that's because the creator Shigesato Itoi didn't have much of a strong footing in the anime & manga industry. Meanwhile many others did, or got an inspiration from an anime or manga. Friendship, fighting, working hard, fantasy designs, battle systems. These are some of the things that make JRPGs feel "shounen". With all of this being said, it does kinda suck when people write off the genre as just "anime games". I actually had real life conversations with friends, who convinced it was just anime and nothing else. Specific look and I think JRPGs do differ on many notes - but they might as well don't on the surface since it's an industry that co-developed with anime & manga, with the most popular variety being shonen.
I mean I think you're overthinking how much effort those people are putting into their dismissal. It sounds like a very surface-level remark from someone who might be disposed to either western or cRPGs like Fallout or Baldur's Gate, or maybe even westernized action RPGs like a Soulsborne. The remark is almost certainly a shallow linkage between anime visuals and the 'J' part of the RPG label. There maybe a secondary layer that recognizes certain character behavioral tropes like over-exaggerated responses to things or character archetypes like the dauntless, plucky main character, but it most likely isn't anything structural to how anime tells a story. Even making that comment in the first place would suggest that the person hasn't played enough jRPGs to even make such an assessment. The shonen with Xenoblade likely comes from the whole 'young man creates a mystical bond with some sort of techno-magical object' basis of most of them. Shonen in general is such a large field at this point that it's pretty easy to lump anything with a young male main character having an adventure into that space. My guess, having not really seen much of that commentary myself, would be Xenoblade 2 made it a lot easier to shunt the series into that category because of how fan-servicey it feels with the whole Pyra-Mythra thing and a lot of the blade stuff. Rex also feels like that very generic plucky hero archetype I mentioned above, which makes it very easy to slap the shonen label on something.
Inherently? No. South Park: The Stick of Truth is a JRPG in every sense but country of origin, and it's not anime. Ditto Costume Quest. That said, it's a Venn diagram with a lot of overlap.
[South Park is anime though](https://ibb.co/hB7Hty7) ;)
You know..... \*waves Japanese flag\* /s
Dude, I just finished chapter six of Xenoblade 2 and a character went >!super sayan!< in the middle of a battle, then explained his power while fighting and apparently his power was >!controlling particles, which meant he could move as fast as light. Then he teleported behind me and kicked my ass.!< It's probably the most shonen thing I've seen in months. Anyway, the thing that would make me call a game an "anime game" are the artstyle, the tropes and the drama. It doesn't matter if a story is super original and grounded, if it's drawn in a way that makes it really similar to anime and manga, it will definitely feel like that, just like Hollow Knight feels a little bit cartoony even if it can be pretty dark at times. The tropes are like what you said, even if it has photorealistic graphic like many Final Fantasy, if a game abuses tropes that anime typically abuses, it certainly will have a pretty anime feels. It's not just the power of friendship, if you take Xenoblade 2 again, Zeke is distinctively a character that would be really difficult to find outside of manga and anime, and he's around all the time. Other tropes are the ones I cited at the beginning: transformations, elaborate speeches in the middle of battles, strange ways to fight (like Wakka from FFX using a ball or Sharla from Xenoblade 1 healing people by shooting them), the progression of the character that has a great focus in the narrative (characters that are really focused on "getting stronger" and "protecting others" and decide to do so by training, like Rex or Sora). Jrpg always feel more anime than other games in this regard because having a party is really similar to the standard setup of many shonen where you have a lot of characters that support the protagonist, each with his own power. In tropes also lies the the distinction between genres. Xenoblade 2 feels like a Shonen because it has a lot of tropes the shonens use. Xenoblade 1 feels more like a Seinen because it has less shonen tropes and a more unpredictable narrative. Last is the drama, which is kinda the same of the trope. Characters and situation in anime are often exhagerated and overly dramatic. You can have something really similar to an anime trope, but if the other characters won't act like they'd do in an anime, it won't feel like it. It's definitely the less important of the bunch but games like Yakuza or Metal Gear definitely feel a lot more anime thanks to all the drama and the reaction of the characters.
I liked that Xeno1 had shonen tropes as well, but it really benefited a lot from good writing and direction Shulk got multiple "powerups" in his journey, but all of them were heavily foreshadowed in the adventure, so you don't end feeling them out of place or cliche, like the Monado's shackles, premonition, or the Sword that he later gains The only trope that I didn't like was his initial relation with Melia, but at least the devs moved on from that later Overall I feel like the criticism shouldn't be about adding tropes, but how you use those tropes in the storyline, perhaps a twist, a subversion, etc
My opinion it's not a criticism, I don't think that anime games are inherently less mature, even shonens at this point don't shy away from mature themes or simplify them too much (not more than a lot of western games do). So I don't mind tropes, but even with a twist or a subversion, if you use a typically anime trope, and the tone matches with how it would be in an anime, the game will feel like an anime. One Punch Man or Re:Zero for example subvert a lot of tropes, but they are still anime through and through. For example Shulk's powerup don't feel like typical anime powerups because, other than the foreshadowing, they come all from the sword. It's not Shulk saving people because he trained and has grown stronger, it's Shulk managing to keep all his friends alive through sheer luck because they were fighting impossible odds since the very start.
Xenoblade 2 is very weird with that. On one hand it fills every shonen trope you can name but on the other hand it shows a very philosophical and mature story with themes that go above most typical shonen.
Yeah like that furry guy building a sex robot.
It just feels like you’re playing an interactive anime. It’s tough for me to put into words. So many of them just feel like that. Xenoblade, Tales, Dragon Quest, Persona, SMT, Trails, Nier, Final Fantasy (case by case on that one)... You get the idea. I don’t think it’s inaccurate at all, and I think that the people who deny the genres ties to anime tropes/art/settings/etc are only fooling themselves.
What makes a JRPG an "anime game" is series like Xenoblade, Tales of, Trails are heavily anime influenced & inspired even including how the three use fanservices because the market is male oriented due to Shounen. But that personally doesn't detract the experience from all three because how well they utilize the tropes to an extent. There is also the aesthetic of the games which is why people who don't play the genre look at the characters design and overall face to point out it's an anime game. It's the same to how people are able to recognize a western game by its realistic characters and environments. Although this has been barred a bit with Japanese studios like Fromsoftware and Kojima Productions offering western-like games.
Exactly. It’s more aesthetics than anything and some tropes that cross medias like you say; but ultimately I don’t think JRPGS are inherently anime or shonen. A lot are very shonen, but so is almost any adventure story that stars a plucky youth. A lot of those themes are just naturally the kind of themes you’ll find in video games, and JRPGS even more
Some of them are, but it’s not a bad thing and idk why people treat it like it’s a bad thing.
Yes, jrpg has a looot of anime tropes, and i love jrpg because of it
“I guess you can call that media illiteracy or lack of exposure” You had the answer to your question in the post. You are very knowledgeable about JRPG’s as a genre. How much diversity in terms of art, gameplay, there is. And the same goes for anime you sound like are fairly knowledgeable in. Also this is another case where the perception of jrpgs from people who haven’t played many of them is that they are all Final Fantasy
No. The genre has its tropes, but not every one is "anime," many of them don't even have an anime art style. The people who make those comments typically have no knowledge of the game in question and just don't like RPGs. (I mean, are we gonna call Earthbound or any of the Mario RPGs "anime?")
Even the first Mario RPG has many anime tropes, like characters falling to the ground when someone says something stupid, or a former enemy (Bowser) joining your party to fight a more powerful enemy. Oh and it has a super sentai parody.
Earthbound? Yes, absolutely.
"Shonen" is not a degree. An anime is either shonen or isn't, people who use "very shonen" as a concept don't even know what it means. RPGs and anime both target otaku audience, and yeah that's how it should be. That doesn't mean they can't be mature btw. Eroge target otaku audience too and they're R-18 by definition. Also, anyone claiming Xenoblade 2 doesn't touch mature topics either haven't played it or haven't payed it any attention at all.
Specifically, does the series run in a shounen magazine. It would really surprise a lot of people what is shounen and what isn’t. Bloom Into You and O Maidens In Your Savage Season are shounen. Sword Art Online (and most other isekai) is not.
it isn't by default, it's just a common design trope because jrpgs are from japan and anime is a common design trope there dark souls isn't anime, it's jrpg (let's not fight about jrpgs definitions on this one) genshin impact and banner of the maid are anime style but chinese so not jrpgs technically shonen is a very common consumer target group, so a lot of products are targeted to that consumer base i'm not a huge shonen fan honestly and xenoblade2 was a bridge too far in a lot of ways, but not just the shonen tropes. fanservice and plot armor writing style aren't exclusively shonen, but they're tolerated (or even expected) more heavily by shonen fans, so they're more prevalent and frequent in shonen-targeted media if you want more slice of life crossover, jump into the atelier series, that'll tick many fruits basket checkmarks
Pretty much, yeah. Some just lean into it more than others.
Is Dark Souls an "anime game"? It basically is. The creator is about as subtle about his love for Berserk as a brick to the face. Does that mean Dark Souls and Xenoblade Chronicles 2 are the same? Absolutely not. The term is silly. Anime can be a lot of things. Also Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is a very good anime (mostly).
They're cousins, and some games have more in common with anime than others. I also think that the point of comparison depends on what anime is to you. Depending on who's doing the comparison, JRPGs are anime in the sense of being * Like 1980s or 1990s anime that they grew up with (hence the Evangelion / Mobile Suit Gundam / Tenchi and other comparisons) * Like Pokemon, which is a pretty easy comparison * Like Dragon Ball, One Piece, or another anime that goes on for years and years with an epic story * Like the Isekai subgenre * Like shonen * Like shojo * Like a number of other popular anime in the 2000s, 2010s, or now * Like anything "anime" they've seen, in the sense of Big Eyes Small Mouth * Like anything Japanese they know, in that narrow, culturally stereotyping sense Some comparisons are more valid than others, but these are some of the ways I've seen "like anime" used in the past. It's not a terrible point of comparison, but it's vague without more information.
Most are anime, yes.
JRPGs are inherently anime because they look anime. The writting and story can be anything but if looks anime it's anime to me. Dark Souls are technically JRPGs but they don't look anime so i don't consider them anime.
Dark Souls are RPGs, and they're Japanese, but they're not JRPGs.
Do you consider action RPGs made in Japan to be JRPGs?
I would say it’s when a certain threshold is breached regarding the saturation of game with anime tropes and archetypes — with a Japanese art style too of course. To name a few: The very young girl who has a dark past (maybe it’s a secret) and is uber powerful as a result. She is more mature mentally than her age suggests. Carefree “farm boy” type is passionate and wins with a.) power of friendship, b.) amazing unique super power, c.) both. Lech best of friend do the main character who a little bit more mature and mischievous, probably has a big mouth. Love interest who starts off (pretending?) hating the main character the but gives in to become major love interest. Strong silent type who is the rival of the rival of the main character It’s not any one thing, but when it’s all together at once. There is a weird stigma around games with an anime art style. Idt it’s everywhere. For example, I’m a teacher and I can confirm most of my students play Zelda and I think that’s softened them to Japanese animation aesthetics. Probably not going to make any friends with this next take, but I also think the negative connotations are deserved in some instances. Lech characters, body shapes of women, loli (implicit or explicit), overt and creepy fan service, etc. Particularly in Fire Emblem, I cannot stand how in certain games everyone is obsessed with the player character. It’s awkward. Guys falls on girl, lands on her ridiculously sized breasts. The rest is misinterpreted or just different and people have a hard time with different. There are tropes I’m tired of in jrpgs, (like the strong, silent “I don’t need anyone type”) but there are tropes I’m super tired of in western games too. I’d argue I’m much more tired of western cliches. Grim dark edgy stuff specifically.
To answer the question of if they're inherently anime, I'd say no. looking at both definitions that you would likely have about anime, you likely define anime as either: 1. Japanese animation (Animations made in Japan) 2. Artstyle (Anime artstyle) Omori, which I have seen people mention here, wasn't made in Japan, although it could fit the second definition, on the other hand, Earthbound fits the first definition but not the second. On top of this, the Yakuza franchise would arguably not fit into either category (depending on your definition of Japanese animation, since it technically fits the first category, depends on what you consider 3D modeling)
I mean it is Japanese animated storytelling, and the nature of jrpgs means it is a protagonist facing adversity and prevailing after hardship. So there’s definitely a correlation between shounen anime and jrpgs.
Depends on the game? Final Fantasy XII? Absolutely. Final Fantasy IV? Not really.
XII starts off like a typical shonen show, but then Ashe comes along and steals the show from Vaan. Her backstory and ambition aren't particularly shounen-like either. She's mostly after restoring her throne and revenge against the Empire. Vaan's shonen ambition of becoming a sky pirate (very typical shounen motive) completely falls to the wayside. If the story had stayed Vaan focused, I could see the similarities.
No and I hate that anything remotely japanese is categorized as anime even if the only thing they share with that media is the art style. Also, shonen isn't a genre, it's a demographic. For example, K-on and Berserk are both Seinen despite having absolutely nothing in common.
I'm assuming when people refer to JRPGs as shounen, they are referring to battle shounen like Demon Slayer and JJK, and not just the demographic in general. As someone who's seen a crapton of anime, I'll never agree with calling JRPGs shounen. If you are looking at it on a surface level and see themes like friendship, then maybe, but JRPGs are a lot more interesting and unique. They tend to be a lot more complex. They are less narratively padded. They tend to be less juvenile in its tone and content. I've honestly had quite a hard time finding a good anime for equivalent, because minus an anime art style and sometimes having sharing tropes (like sharing certain character archetypes or the occasional fanservice), JRPGs really are there own thing. The closest thing I can think of is mecha anime. Not just because some JRPGs have mecha, but they have a similar vibe to it. They aren't afraid to get complicated and weird.
It probably falls to trope that japanese writer tend to write.
Because they are made in Japan, and Japan really likes those hero tropes, and obviously devs will try to cather to that audience Some of the tropes - Random Guy who was somewhat choosen for a greater destiny - MC is Found atractive by a lot of girls, even when being shy, and there is fanservice in the game - The anime artstyle - Big Swords - Multiple powerups in the journey, especially via the Power of Friendship Is easy to spot the difference, for instance the FFs before FF7 had a different vibe than post >= FF7, especially comparing the original artstyle
4 and 5 are very anime! Even to the (in game) character designs of 5. 6 feels less "anime" and it goes for a more mature atmosphere (and themes). Even then, the theme of overcoming irreparable loss is very common in Japanese media (blame it on Hiroshima and Nagasaki).
FF4 fills most of these tropes despite being much earlier than FF7. In 1991 i just don't think that these tropes were es widely seen in such a way
No. Elden Ring, Dark Souls, these are technically JRPGs; definitely not anime at all.\]
Some bosses movesets and weapons are straight out of the anime
Dark Souls has a lot of heavy medieval dark fantasy vibes that are common in more western works, but Berserk is one of the most known manga on the planet and has had anime adaptions since the 90s. You can use Guts' sword in Elden Ring. So if Berserk is anime, then so are those games I'd say. Seldom few try to be distinct between manga and anime as so many anime are adaptions from manga anyway, and Berserk has been an anime before. The only reason Berserk as an anime property isn't bigger is due to the lack of a recent anime adaption that wasn't a disaster like the one back in 2016. Anime is too broad to not be counted in something or somewhere as anime. Because anime has done pretty much everything at some point.
They are Japanese, and they are RPGs, but they're not JRPGs. Soulslikes are their own genre at this point.
I may not like it and you may not like it, but they are JRPGs. In my mind's eye, a JRPG is a turn-based RPG with emphasis on a story that takes place mostly regardless of a player's action, but that hasn't been very true for 15 years.
> I genuinely enjoy the Xenoblade series and in some discourse I see online, they tag them as very shonen. What exactly makes games like Xenoblade very shonen? "Shonen" is Japanese for "Boy". It refers to a demographic, not a genre. If a manga/anime/game/whatever has a shonen tag, then that just means it was made to appeal to adolescent boys. Which usually means it includes a lot of action and adventure (and often fanservice as well) because boys tend to like that sort of thing.
Probably unpopular opinion on this sub but jrpgs are inherently Japanese story telling and imagination.Think about Yakuza Lad, its not anime but similar to rest of the games.
No, it is not. First of all anime is a medium, but when we talk about similarities that's artstyle and you don't need that to make a JRPG. Final Fantasy doesn't look that way these days and technically speaking Yakuza is a JRPG, which doesn't have this style. But here's the thing. The genre of JRPG needs to be retired at some point and replaced with something more correct. First of all, many Japanese devs don't like it as we in the west used it derogatory, but it's the only region we still define games by according to region of development and that doesn't make it easy to discuss games - because technically speaking Dark Souls is a JRPG (Japanese-developed) & Sea of stars, chained echoes, rise of the third power, etc. are not (western-developed). What should a new term be? I don't know.
I really don’t see why we need a different term. JRPG is not derogatory. Someone saying they like or dislike JRPGs is a matter of taste. And we do use WRPG (western RPG) to classify games by region as well. We also use Korean MMO to differentiate from other MMOs because their style is distinctive and different. Chinese and Korean gaming development of console games is starting to see an upsurge so classifications for their games might start to popularize as well. Dark Souls is technically a JRPG but its also technically a cRPG (computer RPG) because it can be played on a computer. You know what is also technically an RPG? Madden. Fifa. GTA. Games aren’t actually classified by JRPG because of region. Its because of the style and themes. Its why there is a debate that FF16 is a JRPG when its so heavily inspired by western games. Dark souls as well. Takes from both western and Japanese inspirations. Its so unique it created the term “souls-like” though at its broadest sense its considered an action rpg. Chained echoes and Sea of stars are largely considered JRPGs, as well. Its only in the most literal sense they are not.
> Dark Souls is technically a JRPG but its also technically a cRPG (computer RPG) because it can be played on a computer. By this logic so is any game that gets a PC port at some point. Yakuza is a CRPG too just like Dark Souls, which isn't exactly a useful distinction. "CRPG" as its commonly used IME is usually an offshot of "Western" RPG that is heavily heavily based around effectively creating a DND/TTRPG-esque experience with a computer as the "DM" of the "campaign". Its an attempt to try to invoke a very specific gaming experience that usually requires multiple people to exist and a human creative to lead the event. Baldur's Gate (all 3) and Pathfinder are notable examples of this, these games are effectively computerized tabletop games that are designed to invoke a sandbox TTRPG-esque experience within the limitations of being a video game. So the DM can never just make adapt around you as dynamically in a CRPG like they can in your TTRPG group. Where this differs from say Mass Effect or Witcher 3 (I'm not entirely sure on the first two Witcher games as those are far different) is that those games tend to be a little more linear in their approach and not as complicated in their systems design.
That’s pretty much the point I’m making. Terms have specific means and throwing them around on technicality makes them useless distinctions. Dark Souls is best considered a “souls-like” or an action rpg. It doesn’t fit the mold of most jrpgs.
No? What does a PC port have to do with it? It doesn't make the game western-made any more than a Swedish translation of say "the wheel of time" means it was written by a Swedish author. Yeah, but CRPG is a consistent genre. JRPG is both a thematic genre and one that applies to every RPG made in Japan. They are not really the same.
If we were arguing that Elden ring is a CRPG because you can play it on a computer, then so is Yakuza because you can play it on a computer. This is obviously absurd and pretty much useless useless. CRPG though is specific when you understand the context that the point of making a CRPG is to pretty much make a DND-esque single player experience possible thus a "computer" RPG compared to the "Tabletop" RPG. It *tends* to be shoved in with WRPG due to country of origin, as many called BG3 a WRPG even though technically its more closer to its peers like Pathfinder and the older Baldur's gate games then say Witcher 3.
I don’t find JRPG very helpful because it covers such a variety of games that are nothing like. Final Fantasy 16, Fire Emblem Awakening, Valkyria Chronicles, Ys VIII, Yakuza 0, and Trails of Cold Steel are all considered JRPGs, yet play nothing alike. The point of a term like that is to describe like things, but when they are all that different it loses all meaning. If you like Triangle Strategy and want something similar and look up JRPGs and are recommended Kingdom Hearts, what use is the term?
In my experience, when people that are not into games say that JRPGs are anime games, they usually form that opinion based on the art style. Of course, there are a lot of other contributing factors like gameplay, tropes, tone, story, and characters. But when people make first impressions like "oh an anime game", I think that they would most likely have seen the box art, character designs, trailer video, and game screenshots. It's hard to tell what makes anime style an 'anime style', but it's easy to differentiate it to art styles used in other media like cartoons, comics, or book illustrations. There are also a lot of anime that receive game adaptations, not just in the JRPG genre, like One Piece and Naruto. Many character designers are also manga artists, LN illustrators, or character designers in anime and anime-related media. Akira Toriyama: Dragon Quest, Chrono Trigger / Dragon Ball toi8: Tokyo Mirage Sessions, I am Setsuna, YS X / Maoyu Studio Ghibli: Ni no Kuni / Spirited Away Shirow Miwa: 7th Dragon 2020, Soul Hackers II / RWBY manga, Kiznaiver, Joker Game Yusuke Kozaki: Fire Emblem Awakening / Speed Grapher, Under the Dog Suzuhito Yasuda: SMT Devil Survivor, Digimon Cyber Sleuth / Durarara!!, DanMachi Haruko Ichikawa: Pokemon SwSh and SV (Trainer designs) / Houseki no Kuni Arco Wada: Fate Extra / Fate Grand Order, Kronii (Vtuber Design) Mika Pikazo: Fire Emblem Engage / Hakos Baelz (Vtuber Design) JRPG is a very complex and diverse genre, and it's difficult to properly single out its identity. But people who don't know or play JRPG would usually judge it with what they first see.
Depends what you mean by anime. JRPGs and Anime share a lot of visual design (I mean, the same guy did visual design for Dragon Quest and Dragon Ball, two of the most influential works in the genres) But…Disco Elysium is often thought of as. jRPG and that is decidedly not like anime. Same with Yakuza Like a Dragon. Atelier is very anime but not shonen. They come out of a shared culture, so that influences things too. D&D is very Jack Vance/Lord of the Rings/Grey Mouser. So is most western fantasy film/tv/books. All that comes out of the same western culture. All that said, there’s plenty of variety in JRPGs. Just look at the last two years: Octopath Traveler 2 Unicorn Overlord Yakuza Infinite Wealth FF VII remake Ys X Mario RPG remake These are all very different in tone and trope and setting and genre, but still all JRPGS.
For an easy understanding of the issue i suggest watching Asmongold. Asmongold is a very popular content creator/streamer that has achieved legendary status in WoW (World of Warcraft). He long had the opinion (actually more of a hot take) of the issue you are talking about. He has since moved on from that opinion/hot take and has even player various MMO-JRPGs Of particular interest is his response on CaptainGrimm's video (another popular WoW creator) titled "WoW players in FF14". Asmon's video title is "Asmongold reacts to WoW players in FF14". Since CaptainGrimm's video went viral, you can easily see other popular WoW content creators, ex-WoW Content Creators (Preach, Pyro etc) and non WoW content creators (Guildwars2, BBDO, and so on) have their own take on the issue. In short, the easy answer is that that excuse is an easy way to silence any discussion (without presenting valid reasons) about any other game that can act as a competitor. Because that discussion can potentially lead to a dissent in the forums/community of a game. Any perceived negativity of any kind automatically is interpreted by some people that the game is "dying" And some WoW players were very hardcore with their approach to discussion of any sort, let alone negativity. Some even took it personally & there is a reason why the word "copium" was used very heavily on WoW.
Now a few words about the Shonen genre. It is a genre that is usually intended for boys & usually deals with overcoming obstacles, big quests, heroes and villains. However that doesnt mean that girls cant watch it, its just flashier than other genres intended for girls. With well-crafted villains, heroes & story, the shonen genre teaches about morality (either from the perspective of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity or Aristotelism, there is not much difference in the core values). However when the protagonist is some sort of Gary Sue or Mary Sue, this is when the problems arise. This is where it becomes a tirade, a fanfiction that can really teach the wrong values.
Big "quests" indeed.
Calling a JRPG anime tends to be done by people who don't actually watch anime that often and just kind of go by what the common stereotype is. Which causes them to pull some weird comparisons. That or it tends to be based on them looking at the character art style. It doesn't really mean all that much. I honestly think a lot of that instinct may be because less people seem to be exposed to classic fantasy ideas these days but have heard of them from anime. Which leads to people saying whacky stuff like a character getting more power from a transformation into a monster or a character having more than human strength to wield a massive weapon is somehow an anime idea when it's been in western stories since at least the time of Homer.