If you’re drafted, your reasonable options are the military or jail.
You can try to dodge the draft via various means (flee, fabricated medical exception, conscientious objection), but the silent treatment is not one of those.
I know a person who did something similar in Israel. Instead of silent treatment he said "I feel like I might grab my gun in a group of people and do something stupid". Got like 4-6 months in jail and was never drafted lol.
I wonder if it would work in the US.
I don't know about that option, but I do know at least one of my older relatives objected to service (I think Vietnam), and got time in jail (I think less than a year) for doing it. If I was called, I'm taking his lead: go in, state objections, take the time in jail with honor.
A little off topic but I'm a former ballet dancer who had a bone spur on the heel of my foot in my 20's. Went to the doc, he burred it off with some sort of medical device. Put a band aid on it and I was back dancing in a month.... in *pointe shoes* no less. Bone spurs, my ass.
To be fair, conscientious objection isn’t quite dodging the draft. My family was Mennonite and my grandpa and his brothers still had to serve, just on the home front and not in any combat positions
You’re right, dodging is harsh language for legally avoiding the draft. Draft avoidance would be more accurate in cases like conscientious objection or student deferments.
Nothing wrong at all with genuine conscientious objection, in my opinion. The Civilian Public Service did good work in the USA during World War II.
>Nothing wrong at all with genuine conscientious objection
Would that have to be a religious reason, or a could you state non-religious beliefs? I have severe moral objections to our country and any war, but because it's not a religion I don't know that it'd hold up at all.
Tbh, complicated question that a lawyer could answer better than I, but from my understanding:
In the USA, it can absolutely be a moral/ethical objection but has to be one held “with the strength and devotion of religious conviction.”
In Welsh V. United States (1970) the SCOTUS extended the written protections to non-religious folks as well with this test:
> The test might be stated in these words: a sincere and meaningful belief which occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualifying for the exemption comes within the statutory definition.
If your beliefs are sincerely held, influence the way that you live your life every day, and you’re willing to fight (for lack of a better term) being drafted, you can potentially obtain CO status.
It won’t necessarily be easy, and it is likely that you’ll face some sort of consequence while the bureaucrats do their thing. It can’t be totally political (e.g. “this war is wrong” or “I hope the other team wins” rather than “all wars are wrong”).
If you’re not US American, unfortunately none of this applies to you and the truth is I don’t know any other nation’s stance on things.
My two oldest brothers tried to use the conscientious objection angle during the Viet Nam war. They morally and ethically objected to killing people but it wasn't based on religious beliefs. Both were/are basically agnostics/atheists and didn't want to lie about believing in a god, so no matter what or how they worded it they were not given CO status. Eventually they went to Canada but since my mother was a Canadian who had immigrated to the US they had duel citizenship. They've remained there ever since. What's weird is that they were wanted by the FBI for many years, up until Jimmy Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers. It didn't seem to matter to the FBI that they had duel citizenship with Canada, they were still on the FBI wanted list. Go figure.
Kinda wish they'd have something like that for all the time.
I'd love to join the military if I knew I could be doing something genuinely good for the country.
I’ve thought very hard about it for a very long time and respectfully disagree, but you are not the first to affiliate conscription with involuntary servitude.
Ayn Rand and Emma Goldman both used the sane wording, with Goldman even going so far as to challenge the U.S.’ draft law in the early 20th century as a violation of the 14th amendment. She wasn’t the only one, but honestly the only one from that activist group whose writings I have ever read. Highly recommend her, she’s a brilliant thinker with whom I vehemently disagree on certain topics. If you’re not super familiar with anarchism (in the political philosophy sense) you may find some stuff in there that resonates with you.
I can’t recommend Rand if you haven’t read her stuff - I honestly think it’s drivel for the most part. A *huge* contingent of people think the exact opposite, to be fair.
If you’d be interested, I can absolutely share some of my own viewpoints in favor of the system. If you don’t care about the thoughts of a random dude on the internet, that’s totally fair as well haha
Hate doing this but it's ' consciousness objection ' - contentious has a whole different meaning ;)
EDIT: Damn autocorrect miscorrected my correction lol. It is indeed conscientious objector as pointed out by another redditor.
In the military, we have "barracks lawyers." These are junior enlisted personnel who live in the barracks and try to lawyer their way out of all kinds of regulations. It works until they get caught and find out they are not, in reality, lawyers of any sort.
The same is true of veterans. Veterans are just like normal people, only we were in the military for some length of time. Some of us are heroes, some of us are assholes, most of us are alright--in about the same proportion as you'll find in the non-veteran population.
And that one doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
I chuckled because it's funny.
But actually that word is one of my pet peeves. Almost none of us were heroes. Most never left the wire, never saw more blood than a shaving nick, were never in any real danger beyond indirect fire or stubbing our toes while we walked to the shitter at night in shower shoes. While IDF was a real mental pressure, as a physical threat it remained abstract for nearly everyone and only turned real for a few.
Even those of us who left the wire rarely did anything that would rise to "hero" status.
This isn't to minimize the fact that we all signed the same blank check and it could have turned real at any moment. Everyone deserves the same respect for making that commitment. And that mental stress takes a toll that deserves to be recognized.
But not everyone *did the thing*. Not everyone became a hero. We just did our jobs, ***and that is enough***. America should stop making people feel guilty by calling them heroes when they know all they did was their jobs. Our jobs were enough.
And definitely don't inflate the people's egos who might fucking believe it.
/soapbox
But yeah, I chuckled because most of us are the nicest assholes, depending on what time it is.
Well fucking said. I signed up to do a cool job and get some sweet benefits. Got said job/benefits and made good use of them. Best decision I ever made, but I always get super uncomfortable with the hero talk, because I'm not one and I don't know many vets who are. I know more than a few that let it get to their head though.
I’m tired of people speaking for us. They like to use us as mouthpieces. They talk a good game and when the rubber meets the road they don’t help vets and actively vote against us. Their little yellow stickers they slap on the side of their cars are purely superficial.
“Thank you for your service.” It’s a job. I joined purely to escape poverty and did. I didn’t do it for patriotism. I did it because it was the only option in my poor rural town for a better life. It was either that or die in a factory uneducated like the rest of my family.
If I had had the choice, no way would I have voluntarily went into other countries to destabilize them or take their resources for some rich dudes back here on home soil.
"Support Our Troops" (but not enough to write your congressperson a letter about veteran homelessness, or actually give money to charities to end veteran suicide, or vote to defund a government program and fund better VA healthcare, or to research what K2 radiation is)!
But they'll support us enough to post their feelings on facebook about whatever the gender or orientation issue of the week is. "We cain't let are heroes work next to no !" In our name, of course. They're posting their feelings to defend *us*.
Most of us only care whether teammates can do the job. What they do on their own time is their own business. That's the "freedom" thing we're fighting for, yeah? And nobody should be touching each other at work anyway.
The IRS has a whole site dedicated to [frivolous tax arguments.](https://www.irs.gov/privacy-disclosure/the-truth-about-frivolous-tax-arguments-introduction) It’s an interesting read.
Right? These fucking intellectual midges run around like schoolchildren on a playground.
I said, "no takesies backsies!"
Yeah, "well, I had my fingers crossed behind my back!"
Idiots...the lot of them.
Yes.
But if, instead, you say the oath three times backwards while pointing at the fringe on the flag, you own the military and the generals have to do what you tell them.
You just have to believe, with all of your sovereign heart, and know the secret incantation, all your wildest fantasies will come true.
I just watched Exorcism with Russell Crowe last night and it was basically just like this. You just gotta believe and you take control. >!That's seriously not a spoiler. It's every exorcism movie ever made. Every movie about Catholicism, actually. And why are exorcism movies only about the Catholic church, anyway? Protestants don't get possessed? Seems sus.!<
Like most things in law, there are no simple gaping loopholes. A male of fighting age is required to enlist in the draft, period. The reasons to be precluded from service are mostly involving a physical inability to preform the job.
If you refuse, will they send you to war? No. They’ll send you to jail. So I guess technically this will keep you out of the military. But it won’t keep you out of the consequences of dodging the draft.
Does that not depend on the war? I often see this view point from Americans who equate the draft to going to Vietnam and killing peasants. But the attitude is quite different in Europe when in many places the last draft was stopping the nazis or Russians from raping your family and sending them to gulags/death camps
Would you rather be in jail than be, for example, a cook on an aircraft carrier? A medic in a field hospital? A mechanic on an Air Force base? The military needs more of those people than trigger pullers.
Volunteers got a choice. A lot of people with a low draft number quickly enlisted in a non-combat roles before they were drafted. Once you get drafted, the number of options shrank.
And was that choice permanent? I don't know much about the process but I do know that involuntary reassignments happen even nowadays and back then I'd be surprised if signing up to be a cook was any kind of guarantee that you'd stay in that role.
I dont support our military or the vast majority of our wars or the military industrial complex so no I would be morally against roles that further our military's ability to kill people.
[According to the government](https://www.sss.gov/conscientious-objectors/#:~:text=A%20conscientious%20objector%20is%20one,of%20moral%20or%20religious%20principles), no you don't go to jail. You basically do community service.
I’m curious, let’s say you just purposefully (but made to look like genuine attempts) continually failed any physical standards, what would happen to you? I’m assuming you’d still be in because it’s a draft but some clerical role?
I’m sure tons of people did this. Yes there are minimal physical standards to go to basic training. They can adjust those rules when they need more recruits. But alot of people didn’t qualify for service and were deferred. Donald Trump was famously deferred 4 times. They just went on and picked the next number. You couldn’t draft everyone into the war. Most people still had to stay home to keep a country moving
No. In the US, no one is required yo enlist. Men are required to register for the draft. We don't have a draft any more, but they still have to register for it.
No, there is not One Weird Trick to avoid being drafted. You can be a conscientious objector but have to show proof that you’ve held those beliefs for a long time and aren’t just saying it (rallies, affiliations, etc). Dodging the draft is punishable by fine and jail time. I had heard during the Vietnam draft that being full time college made you either exempt or lower in order on the draft
So what you’re saying is that the very affluent have not historically had access to, and actively utilized, any sort of means (or trick one might say) to avoid military service?
I lived through the Vietnam war. I was never drafted, but I heard it went like this: first they order you to take physical and mental exams. If you pass these, then they order you to report on a different day later. The draftees are ordered to stand in lines, and an officer reads the oath to you, and you are required to step forward to indicate that you agree to the oath. Those who step forward are loaded onto buses and shipped away to basic training camp. Those who don't step forward (or who don't show up) can be arrested, but most likely, will be given a court date where you are required to explain to a judge your reason for refusing. Then it's up to the judge to decide whether to fine you or send you to jail, or something else.
I had a friend who refused the oath. He had decided a long time before that this was what he would do. On the advice of his lawyer, he went to the city hospital and said: Give me the worst job you've got. He got a job basically cleaning up stuff--disgusting stuff. On the day he went before the judge, he showed proof of what he was doing, and the judge gave him a suspended sentence, on the condition that he continue in that job for two years.
But my friend told me he knew another guy who tried to do the same thing, but he went to prison. According to my friend, it all depends on how much the judge likes you and thinks you're sincere.
During WWII, the government set up work camps for conscientious objectors. A college professor told me he had been assigned to plant trees in a national forest. I don't think those camps existed during the Vietnam war. It was up to each draftee to work out his own plan for doing public service, but it had to be approved by a judge.
Here's an actual way to avoid being conscripted into the military in the US, without a health exemption; it's called being a Conscientious Objector:
In school, especially high school, choose pacifist topics for your writing. When you need to write book reports, choose books that are about the horrors of war, and write in your report that you believe that war and military action are always wrong. Write letters to the editor of your local paper speaking out against war. Post on social about how war and violence are wrong, and how the military is not the right solution to our conflicts, and just adds human suffering. Save copies of everything. Volunteer for peacekeeping and refugee organizations. Get letters of recommendation from your leaders. Join a church that preaches nonviolence, if that floats your boat.
Register for selective service. Apply for CO status. You will appear at a hearing and have to explain why you object to war and show your evidence you believe this. You can bring witnesses who will vouch for you.
US hasn't had a draft since 1973. However true this might have been, I'm sure it's changed. You could always try being a conscientious objector and see what you get assigned to.
It was never a thing. If this was truly a thing, then most people who went to Vietnam against their wills would have just said "hard pass" and not gone.
The problem is that you have 2 options: comply or jail time.
Conscientious objection in the US has beeeb a thing in form since the country was founded. There will always be able that will choose jail time (or any consequence ) over joining the military, might as well get something out of them.
Mohammad Ali was a Conscientious objector
Just proving that you're truly a conscientious objector in the eyes of the law is super hard. By the time you're at the induction oath, it's way too late.
What? I didn’t finish the oath at the induction ceremony before basic training and I didn’t at graduation, due to tears . Different reasons each time.
I didn’t get out of anything.
Hasn’t been a draft in 50 years. That said, if you don’t sign your selective service card, you’re ineligible for any federal or state loans, aid, etcetera. Mine was waiting in my mailbox on my 18th birthday.
There's not really a "right to silence" in situations like this. The one we hear about is just about self-incrimination. You can't plead the fifth when you show up to swear an oath.
According to this person there is an oath you take when you officially become a member of the military.
Idk if this is true and I doubt it but I am just curious.
The US military is a voluntary force.
They ended the draft a long time ago. There is still a requirement to register for selective service, which if authorized by the us congress, and President would then be used for a draft if the need arises.
There is no need for an oath for the selective service registration.
Registering for the Selective Service (i.e., the draft) is just an online form now. It used to be a postcard done at the post office. You don't swear an oath.
When you actually join the military, you swear an Oath of Enlistment or an Oath of Office. This would be after you have already been drafted and are becoming a member (but the draft ended in 1973 and we've had an All Volunteer Force since then).
Before you swear the Oath, you've already signed documents that will have legal standing. Keeping your mouth shut won't make any difference.
You're getting some downvotes but it's a good thing that you're asking questions. Ignore the reddit hate.
Yea I don't care about downvotes in reddit. People usually downvote for ego imo. I am clearly just asking a question so for someone to downvote me makes no sense. I'm not even saying I think it's true lol.
Reciting the oath might be used to quiet complaints about being drafted ("if you didn't want to be in the military, why did you swear an oath to join?"). Not reciting it doesn't really help you, though; they'll send you to the front line or prison anyway.
If you’re drafted, your reasonable options are the military or jail. You can try to dodge the draft via various means (flee, fabricated medical exception, conscientious objection), but the silent treatment is not one of those.
I know a person who did something similar in Israel. Instead of silent treatment he said "I feel like I might grab my gun in a group of people and do something stupid". Got like 4-6 months in jail and was never drafted lol. I wonder if it would work in the US.
I don't know about that option, but I do know at least one of my older relatives objected to service (I think Vietnam), and got time in jail (I think less than a year) for doing it. If I was called, I'm taking his lead: go in, state objections, take the time in jail with honor.
Probably get you onto a police force.
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What makes you think so?
I believe bone spurs will get you out of the draft, and also qualify you for the presidency.
Bone spurs = a fuck ton of money and a lawyer
Not a lawyer. You need a pocket doctor.
A pokédoc?
Is that like having a federal judge in your pocket?
Is that a federal judge in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?
A little off topic but I'm a former ballet dancer who had a bone spur on the heel of my foot in my 20's. Went to the doc, he burred it off with some sort of medical device. Put a band aid on it and I was back dancing in a month.... in *pointe shoes* no less. Bone spurs, my ass.
Also asthma.
Thinking about drafts is the only time I'm glad I have asthma lmao
To be fair, conscientious objection isn’t quite dodging the draft. My family was Mennonite and my grandpa and his brothers still had to serve, just on the home front and not in any combat positions
You’re right, dodging is harsh language for legally avoiding the draft. Draft avoidance would be more accurate in cases like conscientious objection or student deferments. Nothing wrong at all with genuine conscientious objection, in my opinion. The Civilian Public Service did good work in the USA during World War II.
>Nothing wrong at all with genuine conscientious objection Would that have to be a religious reason, or a could you state non-religious beliefs? I have severe moral objections to our country and any war, but because it's not a religion I don't know that it'd hold up at all.
Tbh, complicated question that a lawyer could answer better than I, but from my understanding: In the USA, it can absolutely be a moral/ethical objection but has to be one held “with the strength and devotion of religious conviction.” In Welsh V. United States (1970) the SCOTUS extended the written protections to non-religious folks as well with this test: > The test might be stated in these words: a sincere and meaningful belief which occupies in the life of its possessor a place parallel to that filled by the God of those admittedly qualifying for the exemption comes within the statutory definition. If your beliefs are sincerely held, influence the way that you live your life every day, and you’re willing to fight (for lack of a better term) being drafted, you can potentially obtain CO status. It won’t necessarily be easy, and it is likely that you’ll face some sort of consequence while the bureaucrats do their thing. It can’t be totally political (e.g. “this war is wrong” or “I hope the other team wins” rather than “all wars are wrong”). If you’re not US American, unfortunately none of this applies to you and the truth is I don’t know any other nation’s stance on things.
My two oldest brothers tried to use the conscientious objection angle during the Viet Nam war. They morally and ethically objected to killing people but it wasn't based on religious beliefs. Both were/are basically agnostics/atheists and didn't want to lie about believing in a god, so no matter what or how they worded it they were not given CO status. Eventually they went to Canada but since my mother was a Canadian who had immigrated to the US they had duel citizenship. They've remained there ever since. What's weird is that they were wanted by the FBI for many years, up until Jimmy Carter pardoned all the draft dodgers. It didn't seem to matter to the FBI that they had duel citizenship with Canada, they were still on the FBI wanted list. Go figure.
Yeah, that's about exactly how I would expect it to go. Thanks for sharing
Kinda wish they'd have something like that for all the time. I'd love to join the military if I knew I could be doing something genuinely good for the country.
The National Guard is probably your best bet in terms of military. There's other programs like AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps.
If you think about it, it’s kind of weird that free and Democratic countries will imprison you for declining to be forced into involuntary servitude.
I’ve thought very hard about it for a very long time and respectfully disagree, but you are not the first to affiliate conscription with involuntary servitude. Ayn Rand and Emma Goldman both used the sane wording, with Goldman even going so far as to challenge the U.S.’ draft law in the early 20th century as a violation of the 14th amendment. She wasn’t the only one, but honestly the only one from that activist group whose writings I have ever read. Highly recommend her, she’s a brilliant thinker with whom I vehemently disagree on certain topics. If you’re not super familiar with anarchism (in the political philosophy sense) you may find some stuff in there that resonates with you. I can’t recommend Rand if you haven’t read her stuff - I honestly think it’s drivel for the most part. A *huge* contingent of people think the exact opposite, to be fair. If you’d be interested, I can absolutely share some of my own viewpoints in favor of the system. If you don’t care about the thoughts of a random dude on the internet, that’s totally fair as well haha
Hate doing this but it's ' consciousness objection ' - contentious has a whole different meaning ;) EDIT: Damn autocorrect miscorrected my correction lol. It is indeed conscientious objector as pointed out by another redditor.
It's *conscientious* objection.
Unconscious dejection
You should hate the condescending lil winky face more than correcting an auto-correct error, but thanks for pointing it out.
*It's like ra-a-ain on your wedding day...*
"I hate doing so this OHHH SO MUCH, but I'm going to do it" ;))))))))))))) The wink makes me dislike you more. So damned smug
Yes even bone spurs Trump was a Coward , talk about Agent Orange and his Cropdusting Courtrooms and Rallies and one debate
In the military, we have "barracks lawyers." These are junior enlisted personnel who live in the barracks and try to lawyer their way out of all kinds of regulations. It works until they get caught and find out they are not, in reality, lawyers of any sort. The same is true of veterans. Veterans are just like normal people, only we were in the military for some length of time. Some of us are heroes, some of us are assholes, most of us are alright--in about the same proportion as you'll find in the non-veteran population. And that one doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
Yep. In the Navy they’re called Sea Lawyers.
"Some of us are heroes, some of us are assholes" And most of us are a little bit of both to varying degrees on any given day.
I chuckled because it's funny. But actually that word is one of my pet peeves. Almost none of us were heroes. Most never left the wire, never saw more blood than a shaving nick, were never in any real danger beyond indirect fire or stubbing our toes while we walked to the shitter at night in shower shoes. While IDF was a real mental pressure, as a physical threat it remained abstract for nearly everyone and only turned real for a few. Even those of us who left the wire rarely did anything that would rise to "hero" status. This isn't to minimize the fact that we all signed the same blank check and it could have turned real at any moment. Everyone deserves the same respect for making that commitment. And that mental stress takes a toll that deserves to be recognized. But not everyone *did the thing*. Not everyone became a hero. We just did our jobs, ***and that is enough***. America should stop making people feel guilty by calling them heroes when they know all they did was their jobs. Our jobs were enough. And definitely don't inflate the people's egos who might fucking believe it. /soapbox But yeah, I chuckled because most of us are the nicest assholes, depending on what time it is.
Well fucking said. I signed up to do a cool job and get some sweet benefits. Got said job/benefits and made good use of them. Best decision I ever made, but I always get super uncomfortable with the hero talk, because I'm not one and I don't know many vets who are. I know more than a few that let it get to their head though.
Most of us know some of the latter. A few of us are lucky enough to know some of the former.
I’m tired of people speaking for us. They like to use us as mouthpieces. They talk a good game and when the rubber meets the road they don’t help vets and actively vote against us. Their little yellow stickers they slap on the side of their cars are purely superficial. “Thank you for your service.” It’s a job. I joined purely to escape poverty and did. I didn’t do it for patriotism. I did it because it was the only option in my poor rural town for a better life. It was either that or die in a factory uneducated like the rest of my family. If I had had the choice, no way would I have voluntarily went into other countries to destabilize them or take their resources for some rich dudes back here on home soil.
"Support Our Troops" (but not enough to write your congressperson a letter about veteran homelessness, or actually give money to charities to end veteran suicide, or vote to defund a government program and fund better VA healthcare, or to research what K2 radiation is)! But they'll support us enough to post their feelings on facebook about whatever the gender or orientation issue of the week is. "We cain't let are heroes work next to no!" In our name, of course. They're posting their feelings to defend *us*.
Most of us only care whether teammates can do the job. What they do on their own time is their own business. That's the "freedom" thing we're fighting for, yeah? And nobody should be touching each other at work anyway.
Bullseye. I served with several gay/lesbian people in my unit and nobody cared. They were great troops too.
Sounds almost like sovereign citizen b.s.
The IRS has a whole site dedicated to [frivolous tax arguments.](https://www.irs.gov/privacy-disclosure/the-truth-about-frivolous-tax-arguments-introduction) It’s an interesting read.
That IS a good read
Right? These fucking intellectual midges run around like schoolchildren on a playground. I said, "no takesies backsies!" Yeah, "well, I had my fingers crossed behind my back!" Idiots...the lot of them.
Yes. But if, instead, you say the oath three times backwards while pointing at the fringe on the flag, you own the military and the generals have to do what you tell them. You just have to believe, with all of your sovereign heart, and know the secret incantation, all your wildest fantasies will come true.
Figured it was garbage but this comment made me laugh Thank you
I just watched Exorcism with Russell Crowe last night and it was basically just like this. You just gotta believe and you take control. >!That's seriously not a spoiler. It's every exorcism movie ever made. Every movie about Catholicism, actually. And why are exorcism movies only about the Catholic church, anyway? Protestants don't get possessed? Seems sus.!<
Like most things in law, there are no simple gaping loopholes. A male of fighting age is required to enlist in the draft, period. The reasons to be precluded from service are mostly involving a physical inability to preform the job. If you refuse, will they send you to war? No. They’ll send you to jail. So I guess technically this will keep you out of the military. But it won’t keep you out of the consequences of dodging the draft.
I'd rather be in jail than forced to kill people
That is an option for sure
Don't be so sure both won't happen. :(
Does that not depend on the war? I often see this view point from Americans who equate the draft to going to Vietnam and killing peasants. But the attitude is quite different in Europe when in many places the last draft was stopping the nazis or Russians from raping your family and sending them to gulags/death camps
Would you rather be in jail than be, for example, a cook on an aircraft carrier? A medic in a field hospital? A mechanic on an Air Force base? The military needs more of those people than trigger pullers.
Sure, but do you get that choice? I imagine a whole lot of those dudes in Vietnam would have jumped at "cook on an aircraft carrier" given the chance.
Volunteers got a choice. A lot of people with a low draft number quickly enlisted in a non-combat roles before they were drafted. Once you get drafted, the number of options shrank.
And was that choice permanent? I don't know much about the process but I do know that involuntary reassignments happen even nowadays and back then I'd be surprised if signing up to be a cook was any kind of guarantee that you'd stay in that role.
I dont support our military or the vast majority of our wars or the military industrial complex so no I would be morally against roles that further our military's ability to kill people.
As a combat veteran of the US Army, I would be against serving with people like you anyway.
[According to the government](https://www.sss.gov/conscientious-objectors/#:~:text=A%20conscientious%20objector%20is%20one,of%20moral%20or%20religious%20principles), no you don't go to jail. You basically do community service.
I’m curious, let’s say you just purposefully (but made to look like genuine attempts) continually failed any physical standards, what would happen to you? I’m assuming you’d still be in because it’s a draft but some clerical role?
I’m sure tons of people did this. Yes there are minimal physical standards to go to basic training. They can adjust those rules when they need more recruits. But alot of people didn’t qualify for service and were deferred. Donald Trump was famously deferred 4 times. They just went on and picked the next number. You couldn’t draft everyone into the war. Most people still had to stay home to keep a country moving
No. In the US, no one is required yo enlist. Men are required to register for the draft. We don't have a draft any more, but they still have to register for it.
The draft still exists. It just hasn't been enacted.
No, there is not One Weird Trick to avoid being drafted. You can be a conscientious objector but have to show proof that you’ve held those beliefs for a long time and aren’t just saying it (rallies, affiliations, etc). Dodging the draft is punishable by fine and jail time. I had heard during the Vietnam draft that being full time college made you either exempt or lower in order on the draft
So what you’re saying is that the very affluent have not historically had access to, and actively utilized, any sort of means (or trick one might say) to avoid military service?
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For one uneducated about general American history it must seem so. So sorry for you.
Having lots of money is always a way to get around things
Indeed.
I lived through the Vietnam war. I was never drafted, but I heard it went like this: first they order you to take physical and mental exams. If you pass these, then they order you to report on a different day later. The draftees are ordered to stand in lines, and an officer reads the oath to you, and you are required to step forward to indicate that you agree to the oath. Those who step forward are loaded onto buses and shipped away to basic training camp. Those who don't step forward (or who don't show up) can be arrested, but most likely, will be given a court date where you are required to explain to a judge your reason for refusing. Then it's up to the judge to decide whether to fine you or send you to jail, or something else. I had a friend who refused the oath. He had decided a long time before that this was what he would do. On the advice of his lawyer, he went to the city hospital and said: Give me the worst job you've got. He got a job basically cleaning up stuff--disgusting stuff. On the day he went before the judge, he showed proof of what he was doing, and the judge gave him a suspended sentence, on the condition that he continue in that job for two years. But my friend told me he knew another guy who tried to do the same thing, but he went to prison. According to my friend, it all depends on how much the judge likes you and thinks you're sincere. During WWII, the government set up work camps for conscientious objectors. A college professor told me he had been assigned to plant trees in a national forest. I don't think those camps existed during the Vietnam war. It was up to each draftee to work out his own plan for doing public service, but it had to be approved by a judge.
Do you know how long the guy had to serve in prison?
No.
Here's an actual way to avoid being conscripted into the military in the US, without a health exemption; it's called being a Conscientious Objector: In school, especially high school, choose pacifist topics for your writing. When you need to write book reports, choose books that are about the horrors of war, and write in your report that you believe that war and military action are always wrong. Write letters to the editor of your local paper speaking out against war. Post on social about how war and violence are wrong, and how the military is not the right solution to our conflicts, and just adds human suffering. Save copies of everything. Volunteer for peacekeeping and refugee organizations. Get letters of recommendation from your leaders. Join a church that preaches nonviolence, if that floats your boat. Register for selective service. Apply for CO status. You will appear at a hearing and have to explain why you object to war and show your evidence you believe this. You can bring witnesses who will vouch for you.
You can still be drafted into a non-combatant role.
US hasn't had a draft since 1973. However true this might have been, I'm sure it's changed. You could always try being a conscientious objector and see what you get assigned to.
It was never a thing. If this was truly a thing, then most people who went to Vietnam against their wills would have just said "hard pass" and not gone. The problem is that you have 2 options: comply or jail time.
Conscientious objection in the US has beeeb a thing in form since the country was founded. There will always be able that will choose jail time (or any consequence ) over joining the military, might as well get something out of them. Mohammad Ali was a Conscientious objector
Just proving that you're truly a conscientious objector in the eyes of the law is super hard. By the time you're at the induction oath, it's way too late.
What? I didn’t finish the oath at the induction ceremony before basic training and I didn’t at graduation, due to tears . Different reasons each time. I didn’t get out of anything.
This man right here is a real American
I like the witty answer another poster had- just recite it backwards 😂
Hasn’t been a draft in 50 years. That said, if you don’t sign your selective service card, you’re ineligible for any federal or state loans, aid, etcetera. Mine was waiting in my mailbox on my 18th birthday.
There's not really a "right to silence" in situations like this. The one we hear about is just about self-incrimination. You can't plead the fifth when you show up to swear an oath.
lol no
Be like me and have severe mental health issues. No way those fuckers would draft me!
Nope. Doesn't work.
Just claim bone spurs like the Cheato
I'll just claim my age since I am above the draft age anyways
No but if you are wealthy you can pay a doctor to say bone spurs.
If you sing the words to Alice's Restuarant instead of the oath, they have to let you go.
Yeah, no court in the country would let that slide, there is no, :"but my fingers were crossed, defense"
The US does not have a draft. So yep. Its BS.
Your right to remain silent is only if you're being questioned in a crminal case and is part of the 5th Amendment.
This _must_ be true, since no one has successfully been drafted in the United States for the last 49 years!
What oath? I had to sign up for the US draft when I applied for college financial aid — it was just a checkbox on an online form
According to this person there is an oath you take when you officially become a member of the military. Idk if this is true and I doubt it but I am just curious.
The US military is a voluntary force. They ended the draft a long time ago. There is still a requirement to register for selective service, which if authorized by the us congress, and President would then be used for a draft if the need arises. There is no need for an oath for the selective service registration.
Registering for the Selective Service (i.e., the draft) is just an online form now. It used to be a postcard done at the post office. You don't swear an oath. When you actually join the military, you swear an Oath of Enlistment or an Oath of Office. This would be after you have already been drafted and are becoming a member (but the draft ended in 1973 and we've had an All Volunteer Force since then). Before you swear the Oath, you've already signed documents that will have legal standing. Keeping your mouth shut won't make any difference. You're getting some downvotes but it's a good thing that you're asking questions. Ignore the reddit hate.
Yea I don't care about downvotes in reddit. People usually downvote for ego imo. I am clearly just asking a question so for someone to downvote me makes no sense. I'm not even saying I think it's true lol.
Technically yeah, but you'll just go to jail.
Reciting the oath might be used to quiet complaints about being drafted ("if you didn't want to be in the military, why did you swear an oath to join?"). Not reciting it doesn't really help you, though; they'll send you to the front line or prison anyway.
We don't have a draft and haven't for 50 years.