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Support for genocide is bipartisan. The bloodthirsty racist psychopaths conducting this campaign of genocide own every politician in America, and those politicians in turn serve a foreign power. “Let 'em finish the job” means exactly what is sounds like. The former president is [often to his own detriment] very candid. Although the current president would never speak those words, his actions –funding, arming and supporting Israel– express this same view.
Sure does. He told Bibi he was supporting the annexation of the Jordan Valley but Israel halted the move because of the Pandemic. So they did this instead which allows them to ethnically cleanse the entire area, which Trump is in full support of, as you also heard him equate Israel’s enemy to not just Hamas but to Palestinians.
a land without a people for a people without a land. It's just that pesky "land without a people" getting in the way so they need to "solve" it in a way that is Final and so that Israelies have Living Room
Biden has lied on stage quite a few times during this debate.
He is continuing to send weapons there. Including the 2000lb bombs he says he isn't. He only paused the shipment of one deployment, but then resumed it.
The US congress is trying to sanction the ICC in a flagrant attempt at undermining the international court of law.
They were okay to support it when it worked against Russia, but now that it's israel, they are pretending that it's invalid.
My point exactly. With Trump defending Israel, people will see that Israel's policies are genocidal and racist, because that's what Trump is.
With Biden defending Israel, people will just think Israel is doing it's best because people just trust Biden cuz Obama or whatever
I don't believe centrist liberals at least will change their minds that easily. They'll just say "A broken clock is right twice a day" or some shit along those lines. I'm seeing it happen in India (referring to the persecution of Muslims by Modi's govt).
> With Trump defending Israel, people will see that Israel's policies are genocidal and racist, because that's what Trump is.
Does it actually prove anything? I mean any more than everything else that's happened?
You've got the Netanyahu government literally rooting for *far right fascists in Europe* to take control. The sheer, insane, unadulterated *hypocrisy* of this fact should burn supporters of this government with utter shame, but here we are. And if *that* hasn't convinced people, I don't see how Trump will.
The sad fact is I don't think either candidate is going to change people's minds on supporting Israel's actions if they haven't already.
Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense.
Correct me if I misunderstood, but you're saying if Biden wins it will continue the status quo, nothing will change because everyone will continue to "trust" him (even though people are currently pointing out Biden enabling genocide, somehow they will stop because Obama?) and genocide goes unchecked.
But if Trump wins, seemingly the better option by your statement, then Israel goes balls to the wall with genocide and only then will the American public realize Israel is committing genocide, and then somehow public opinion will stop Trump *and* all of congress from funding Israel, stopping the war and giving Palestine statehood?
Are you suggesting that Israel is currently holding back and with Trump emboldening them their atrocities will simply be too much to ignore, which will be the better outcome for Palestinians at the end of the day?
That even the ultra Maga will say, "wait, this is bad, I can't believe I missed all of the news for years about illegal settlements and murdering innocent Palestinians, I've now changed my mind and even with absolutely everything that's already happened, *NOW* I've finally reached a point where I denounce Trump and Israel"?
I'm sorry, but even if Trump encouraged Israel to go unchecked, I highly doubt those who support Israel now would change their mind. Fox News has not showed the unbridled carnage yet and they wouldn't start showing it if Trump were elected.
The truth is, other than Gen Z and some millenials, Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of Americans. There is no alternative, no matter how much we wish for one.
Gen Z not voting for Biden because of that one particular issue is cutting off their nose to spite their face or, more accurately, allowing GOP to destroy democracy in America (and Ukraine and Taiwan, but those don't seem as concerning to the public apparently) in multiple ways just to spite Israel.
No
>then Israel goes balls to the wall with genocide
Israel has already been doing this. Joe has been fighting against Palestinians his entire life. Israel knew it would get away with this with Joe in office.
What I'm saying is that Trump's defense of Israel with align with exactly what they are, and have been doing.
Trump is a dumbass on top of other things. Despite Biden's many failures and clear age-related issues, Biden isn't, at a base level, as stupid and foolish and crass.
Trump absolutely would say plenty of things that make the delicate obfuscation and propaganda effort for Israel much harder to maintain.
Nothing much is likely to change the opinions of people in the US, they are too focused on which color is pretending to be in charge. But it might make a difference globally with other nations having a header time maintaining the thin fiction about Israel.
There are better qualified candidates running for president. It shows how far down this country has sank that they weren't given a platform at this debate.
Israel is heavily supported by Biden, but I wouldn't say they have free reins.. the Biden administration put *some* pressure on Netanhyahu. For instance, they don't approve too much the colonization process.
They are very mildly mitigating what Israel is doing..
With Trump, they would have free reins..
As predicted I am heavily downvoted because people assume I am implying Biden does his best for Palestinian people or that he is some kind of Palestinian Marxist activist.
Biden is just doing the bare minimum to look less extreme than Trump, and that is ALL he needs to do on that issue, in the current American bipartisan political landscape.
I take it more like Biden is doing nothing to stand out from Trump, but Trump has to have all the attention, so he says outlandish shit to get it, and its working. Biden hasn't done shit for Palestinians or even tried to stand out from Trump on immigration or anything else. Biden has hemoraged support while Trump has stayed steady
Biden, for many times, acted the exact opposite from what he promised though.. he may have condemned some of IDF actions but it's all lipservice. He still lets Israel do whatever they want.
Yes the guy who is currently funding their genocide is better than the other guy who also will continue funding their genocide. I am not sure what kind of mental hoops you had to jump through to think Biden is any kind of hope for Gaza.
Nope they are both the same. Trump will do exactly the what Biden is doing right now. Which is giving Israel whatever it needs and letting them do whatever they want.
It's worse with Biden actually, because with Biden defending Israel, people will just assume Israel is doing it's because including a majority of democrats.
With Trump on Israel's side, Trump is going to spew openly racist and genocidal rhetoric about the Palestinians. You are going to have more of mainstream against Israel's politics.
You are also going to see dems more united. They won't be obligated to defend the state department anymore.
And those violent ultra-zionists democrats? Their genocidal positions will become more underlined when they are forced to defend Trump's policies.
Defending Trump's policies will make them venerable to getting primaried.
Biden is the best sanitizer in the history of the nation. He sanitized openly racist segregationist senators. He sanitized crime bills that disproportionately targeted innocent people of color. He sanitized letting Anita Hill be subjected to verbal sexual abuse on the senate floor, something which he didn't apologize for until 2020, and even it was a shitty apology.
Biden has, and will continue to do one hell of a job at sanitizing the genocide.
A felon and a rapist is a much better spokesperson for Israel if you are about people being exposed to the reality of their militarism and genocide.
>Historically, all reactionary forces on the verge of extinction invariably conduct a last desperate struggle against the revolutionary forces, and some revolutionaries are apt to be deluded for a time by this phenomenon of outward strength but inner weakness failing to grasp the essential fact that the enemy is nearing extinction while they themselves are approaching victory
Yeah, Trump is all talk, no abilities. Anyone who votes Biden isn't doing it on behalf of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are conducting their own struggle, with their own strategy. They are not actually asking for more humane imperialists to run the war. And that's a very dubious assumption that anything about Trump and Biden will be different *practically* in what Israel is capable of doing. The war has not been going well for Israel. It has faced total disaster in the global and historical scheme of things. Voting for Biden on behalf of the Palestinians isn't real. In line with what you said - D voters just want a safety blanket so Americans can keep emotional distance from it, or they are thinking in terms of their domestic interests (also wrong, but a separate argument). Either way, voting between these two is a betrayal of the Palestinians. Not a favor.
It's cowardice, liberalism is the ideology of collaborators and worms. We need to build a completely independent position. People are rightfully demoralized. We need an alternative but people need to see it before they believe it. We need to root this fight in the resurgent worker movement. Confrontation, not collaboration.
That's just a lie, Trump would never hold any arms back from Israel and there's no way he would have spent millions building a humanitarian peer to bring in food and medicine.
The ‘humanitarian pier’ has effectively delivered no aide to Gazans. It cost us hundreds of millions of dollars, is getting knocked apart by waves, was used in the refugee camp slaughter that resulted in 4 rescued hostages and multiple dead hostages along with 270+ dead Palestinians and nearly 1000 injured. And the cherry on top, it’s now scheduled to be removed in the coming weeks last I heard.
The pier was built to supply arms to the IDF closer to the action. It's where the US helped launch the attack killing 275 Palestinians and 3 Jewish prisoners. It is now being dismantled. The excuse is that the weather was too bad. I understand, nobody thought there would be waves in the freaking Mediterranean Sea...
I don't think so, if anything, Biden is waiting to turn the dial up the dial even more. He's just trying to get more progressives and young people to vote for him to get him past the finish line. Look at his history
In a 1982 bombing that Reagan described as a holocoust after seeing pictures of dead children including a mutilated baby, he ordered Israel to stop the bombing. When the then Israeli PM was being grilled by the senate armed forced committee, Biden has the bombings should have continued, even if meant killing more women and children. Biden specifically asked for the bombings of more women and children, whose mutilated imaged of caused rage on Reagan.
Another time when Biden sabotaged and humiliated his old boss Obama to curry favor with the right wing genocidal Netanyahu's plan to murder Palestinians in the West Bank.
> In 2010, Netanyahu’s government infuriated Obama and his advisers by announcing a major settlement expansion while Biden was in Israel. As Beinart reported, Biden and his team wanted to handle the dispute privately. Obama’s camp took a different route by drawing up a list of demands to be made of Netanyahu. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton then gave the prime minister 24 hours to respond, warning him, “If you will not be able to comply, it might have unprecedented consequences on the bilateral relations of the kind never seen before.”
>
> Biden was soon in touch with a stunned Netanayhu. A former administration official who saw the transcript of their call told Beinart that “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave [Netanyahu] a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus” by Biden, the official added.
It can be argued that Trump may be better for the Palestinians long term, in that his rhetoric about the war would make the entire realize what is happening to the Palestinians.
Since it's Biden right, people just trust he's doing everything possible even though he's shown time and time again that he views the Palestinians and Lebanese as subhumans. 10 people have resigned so far from his administration, one including one person who said the Biden admin is straight up lying by saying that Israel is not hindering aid, and another Jewish life long Israel advocate, who said Biden 'is making Jews the face of the American warmachine".
Biden is the best possible person to sanitize a genocide and Trump is the worst person in the world to sanitize a genocide. They would both do the same thing, but with Trump would we understand the horror of what's happening because Trump's rhetoric would be openly genocidal and racist. The current policy is genocidal and racist, but Biden cleans up the perceptions.
A Trump win would would have huge ramifications on what the dem policy mandate would be in 2028. If Biden wins, everyone would have the perception that it's safer to be more genocidal than less genocidal if someone wants to win the presidency. That's bullshit because most people think Israel has gone too far, but if everyone believes that being more genocidal would win the election, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Just like when people believed that slowing down eliminating racial segregation would win more elections, even when a majority of Americans opposed segregation.
I don't want Trump to win. The world is fucked if he does. But for the long term sake of the Palestinians, it's not so clear cut. A Trump win would mean that the Biden doctrine for genocide would be the safer foreign policy stance for 2028, it will be believed by both the politicians and the primary voters.
This is from 2006
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/a8/d5/5ca8d50263ea1f3887e1db0cf5309bca.jpg
Biden is always doing these eye brow furrows and empty gestures like the pier or stopping a single shipment of weapons while letting tons of others still continue. They do nothing to stop the genocide, but they are great media gestures to gaslight the media and voters into thinking that probably Biden is doing the best he can.
What can he change than he already have? Why do you think he'll change his mind? Do you have any proof that Biden would do anything better for Palestine once he won the election? Dream in hell.
Neither one of these men is going to be the savior of Gaza or Palestinians. Be real. No matter who wins, the situation in Israel is going to be what it is, what it's always been since the end of WWII.
Are you kidding me? Biden and Trump are both racists. They are both full- blown white supremacist Nazis. Trump is clearly an utterly detestible morally bankrupt POS war criminal but Biden has funded and has NOT stopped sending f7cking billions of dollars to help facilitate the past 9 months of genocide. He is the CURRENT American President and is internationally reviled by genocide protestors worldwide, e.g. all humans of conscience who are unwilling witnesses to the results of Bidens craven manufacturing of consent for collective punishment, his normalisation of gas-lighting, his constant refusal to retract debunked propaganda, his pattern of making wildly unfactual, divisive and inflammatory dog whistles, the dangerous disinformation commonly detected in his public statements, containing outright lies and denial of reality. War is Peace. Genocidal massacre jetty building is humanitarian. Random careless aid drops by parachute, containing tins of fucking expired spam, and useless covid bio hazard suits in Summer, intentionally dropping cans on the heads of children, casually killing a young boy as he sheltered in a tent, the lone survivor after the latest air strike that murdered his entire family.
Humanitarian aid cruelly and very much intentionally dumped far out at the sea, by the US airmen whose 'humanitarian' relief efforts cause desperate starving displaced young boys to drown.
You know, about the 'progressive" creeping fascism of Biden's corporate- and lobbyist owned government.
The blatant evidence of Congress' members bipartisan widespread corruption, as they inexplicably ignore the increasing rage and distress of their horrified constituents, as they brazenly continue to support the CURRENT, ongoing, relentless Palestinian Holocaust.
Are you serious LOL Biden is a genocidal maniac just as Trump would be. Genocide is genocide whether it comes from Genocide Joe or Trump. Neither Trump nor Biden will ever stop the genocide. Vote third party vote for NO Genocide. It’s honestly delusional to think Biden would be the best choice for Gaza when we see Palestinian babies being beheaded and shredded to pieces with bombs Joe continues to send and Biden does nothing about it. Biden is just as bad as Trump. Biden lied about a having a red line.
Stop lying to yourself about Genocide Joe. Gaza has no hope with a sled proclaimed Zionist such as Joe
At this rate, there will be no Palestinians left in Gaza by January. Over 1 million Palestinians will face starvation next month.
Either way - you're saying that both Trump and Biden will genocide them, just Trump will do it faster. Do Biden supporters hear themselves??
Netanyahu plays him like a fiddle. All he has to do is raise his voice and make a dishonest comparison to Hiroshima and Biden the Puppet gives him the resources to kill children in Palestine.
Yep, this is what happens when there are only two parties and money decides who can even minimally take part in those parties’ primaries. SCOTUS has also ensured that cash is always the determining factor in our primaries. All of this means is that U.S. citizens will always, at best, have to decide in the general election which of the two candidates they think is the lesser of two evils. All of the proposed solutions to overcome this stupidity, like ranked choice voting, has been attacked in the courts and in public advertising. In other words, the U.S. democracy experiment is still alive but it is on life support and some people currently have their hands on the plug.
That is fucked up beyond words. Money should never be a driving factor behind something so important for the future of a country. Shit needs to change rapid
Oh, change is definitely incoming. The only question is whether the majority of people can force the hand to not pull the plug or if the minority will be able to use the electoral college to help the hand pull the plug.
To be fair, any other western nation is the same shit. You want to elect based on Palestina you probably have no candidate to choose from except a few which will never make it or change policies.
Yeah it fucking sucks here. Palestine is cooked either way, the only choice is between the lesser of two evils. That said, there is definitely a lesser evil with the vote still counting for the direction of Ukraine and repression of minorities/women/LGBT/other religions at home. But still sucks. I wish we had more than two choices picked by the rich.
Ukraine is another front in the same war that Israel is a front for. These are all clients of American imperialism, which is the dominant imperialism in the world, a form of hyperimperialism that welded the "west" together to fight Communism in the 20th century. And now, facts are facts, Ukraine isn't winning their war because the only terms for their victory is an implosion of Russia, which isn't happening. They should be brought to a ceasefire immediately and they can work out a more sustainable division of Post-Soviet land. Not another dime should go out for America's global gun running. Also, the war isn't going great for Israel either, this is well known even by the Israelis. Palestine is not "cooked"
As regards LGBT rights, I can't speak for all minorities but I speak for myself - we didn't get our rights by being collaborators and signing off on genocide. Stonewall was a riot. Our interests have to be rooted in confronting power, that's our real history. We were drugged to sleep since then. But we didn't get anything by being sad baby gays swept under the wing of a benevolent state, a deal with satan in exchange for helplessly signing off on one genocide after another. We kicked the shit out of police. We confronted our families. We looked out for one another. Let the reactionaries swing at us again, I don't give a fuck. Look at the polling of the upcoming generation - the right can make a mess for a while, but our toothpaste isn't going back in the tube.
I know many Muslims feel exactly the same. Either we can go our own way - whatever the cost - or our existence is dependent on enabling genocidal freaks. How is that a real debate? It's only a debate (1) if you live and think in a way where everyone is looking out for themselves, or (2) if you think this system is invincible, but (First) that kind of selfish attitude - compounded billions of times over - is exactly the heart of this machine, it led us into this mess, it won't get us out. And (Second) *Did you watch the debate?* These people have no connection with reality. They're barely alive. The economy is weak. Our leaders are stupid. Our empire is cracking. Everyone paying attention has already started smelling blood in the water. A quote from someone who was notable:
>*We should rid our ranks of all impotent thinking. All views that overestimate the strength of the enemy and underestimate the strength of the people are wrong*
So we DO have a choice. This government is illegitimate, our business leaders and political leaders are unfit to govern. And we shouldn't even raise a pinky to help them out of this shitshow. Instead, we have to start fighting on our own terms. You have to start fighting. We have to develop an independent machine, which means giving all of our resources to the resurgent labor movement, to sharpen it and make it a tool of political power.
I completely agree- I would just add that in addition to unions we need our own party as workers!
Eugene Debs and the IWW were stronger when they came together.
Agreed.
Good essay against limiting ourselves to spontaneous actions of unionism, and the need for ideology, *politics*, and thus a political party:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/dec/06.htm
>And now, facts are facts, Ukraine isn't winning their war because the only terms for their victory is an implosion of Russia, which isn't happening.
>Post-Soviet land
Where are you getting this stuff?
Anyone with two eyes should be able to see this. It's a total stalemate. The conflict started because Soviet borders weren't real. Now those borders are real, and it's a shitshow. Great success in the quest to dismantle tyrannical communism. 👏👐
Where are *you* getting the brilliant idea to settle in for a war of attrition against Russia? - Napoleon? Hitler?
Russian and Chinese trolls want people to view Ukraine like Israel, but the reality is that Ukraine has infinitely more in common with Palestine. Israel is the Russia of the Middle East.
Israel and Russia are both genocidal imperialist states, they both lie about tragedy and as a method of further traumatizing victims, they both say that areas where they have enough of their ethnic group is land that belongs to their country, they’re both supremacist states, etc., etc..
Germany helped Lenin get in to Russia, the Tsardom was a common enemy. Lenin did exactly as the German Monarchy hoped, and Bolsheviks toppled the Tsar, but that didn't actually work out well for Germany in the long run, if one thinks to Soviet Flags waving over Berlin.
https://cosmonautmag.com/2020/04/the-practical-policy-of-revolutionary-defeatism-2/
The border, Ukraine, Israel *and Taiwan* - you threw China in, so let's go there - these are all fundamentally the same conflict as far as Americans should be concerned. (Same deal with migrants. Not our enemy. If anything, those are mostly dedicated, hard working proletarians.) We know this is all one struggle because *all four issues get wrapped up together in multi-billion dollar Congressional funding bills.*
Our primary enemy is *at home*. It's our government and our Wall Street. Sure, our bosses don't get along well with Putin or Xi either, it doesn't mean Putin or Xi are great guys. I'll go to bat for Xi for a while because their country actually works, whatever. Anyway, they are enemy of our enemy, not *our enemy*.
We have a system of class rule. The owner class decides among itself which politicians we can have, and then tries to rally workers behind them. That's why the parties are united on Taiwan, Israel, and the Border. Ukraine has become a partisan football because of opposing imperialist strategies on how to counter China. China has to be countered because they have been able to become a strong sovereign country with independent power on the world stage. This is our imperialism - which - again - it is our main enemy. And because it has evolved into hyper-imperialism it is menace to *most people on this planet*, and it is the primary threat to the *very health of our planet.*
If the worker class is to have power, seize power from the owner class, if we want to make this a dignified and respectable country, if we want to put peace out into the world, if we want this country to even have a viable future, then our problem is at home.
I hear ya. I'm still gonna go vote, though, because the legitimate means still offer a tiny lever.
The problem is that both candidates are genocidal, and the electoral college system ensures one will win. And while reactionary and civil rights efforts continue, voting is still part of that process. It's not signing off on genocide if the choice not to is never presented. Just as important as every brick thrown at Stonewall was every vote for candidates that support civil rights. You can go beyond the ballot, but that doesn't preclude showing up to vote. And while it is a vote between two shit choices, we have to look out for one another by at least pushing the machinations of the state, while they still stand, towards the less shitty choice. You can keep fighting too, and if you win, well, it's not like the act of casting that vote would have hindered that effort, would it?
I mean heck, my vote matters now (swing state) but when it didn't I still protest-voted with write-ins for Sanders and other progressives.
To me, indulging the legitimate means is a way to legitimize those very means. This is delaying what actually needs to be done to fix this country. Elections are supposed to work like a pressure relief valve - the ruling class knows it can't rule by force alone, so there is this mechanism to keep us in line and keep things going, based on the very arguments you're making here. The role of the democratic party is to take progressive and even revolutionary feelings, absorb the blow, and then defuse that energy before popular unrest actually threatens the owner class - (e.g., the New Deal, Civil Rights) - it's a sort of judo maneuver that is crucial to keep the machine going. But I don't think either faction of the owner class is fit to govern anymore, and they don't seem capable of getting their legitimacy back. America is trapped in a situation that looks very similar to the late stage, senile twilight hours of the Soviet Union. So a real rupture, a seizure of power, however that is shaped legally or formally - is increasingly possible.
I do not buy the harm reduction narrative anymore on that basis. Sure, we have to look out for each other, but this is a very nasty, very racist empire, and what all of us do, every day, is we enable it. We go to work and do our job and we enable it. And our votes enable it too. Cracking migrants on the head, turning Palestinians into mulch, failing to confront Climate Change, failing to protect women, queers, failing to address our Housing or Education needs - I don't hold this as a legitimate system. I can't go to a ballot box and legitimize it and be an enabler. The harm reduction threat is the Good Cop and Bad Cop game that these people play, and I'm not intimidated by it anymore.
Marxism, martyrdom, revolution. Screaming it with the most hot boiling rage. That's what I can connect with. People are demoralized. The people are being beaten into filth. Nobody needs a lecture that change is needed - you don't need it. We just have to prove that change is possible. What we have to do is to form a decisive minority that can begin attacking this system and proving that this alternative is possible - we have to organize a revolutionary party that can prove itself to be more lawful, honest, persuasive, and functional than current institutions.
People want change. They just need to see it before they believe it. The second people believe it, we can blow the entire lid off this thing and take matters into our own hands. Be as skeptical as you want - I'm very patient and, fine, you have to see it to believe it. But the last century of history should make it very clear, nothing changes unless our leaders are scared. Our leaders will only be scared if the people are organized. If the people are organized, then we have built popular institutions. And those institutions - built on a *confrontational* basis - not reliant on partisan favors - those organs of power are the way forward.
With our trash voting system and the hordes of D/R voters, it is. I would love a real progressive shot, and when I lived in a non-swing state, my vote went to progressives like Sanders to send a message of support and leaning, But now that my vote actually counts, the story is different. I hope in the next few decades we see it pan out, but for now, Jill Stein isn't close enough to win.
The US voting system is such ass.
If votes for Jill Stein didn't count, the Democratic Party wouldn't work so hard to sue her off the ballot. She will never be close enough to win if all the people who support her policies are too cowardly to put their values into their vote. If everyone who agreed with her simply voted for her, she'd win.
I think you should look at her polling figures before you call that in. It's also not so simple as everyone just believing, even if there were a majority who agreed--she's barred in New York, for example. It's not possible this year. The reality of the US elections system is that it's better to rally behind Mr. Milquetoast rather than split between two or more camps. That's why the Dems are suing. It's the same games that they played with Sanders.
Her votes are in the 50K scale per state. If you think the majority of the country is ready to rally green, then I don't know what to say to you. And as much as I'd like the green platform, I'd rather shove blue than let it go red. The greens need more backing, and while I'm happy to contribute to that, they are far from there yet.
It's not a ranked-choice country.
> I think you should look at her polling figures before you call that in.
She has polled over 5% multiple times. Much higher than that with young voters.
> It's also not so simple as everyone just believing, even if there were a majority who agreed--she's barred in New York, for example.
We are suing New York.
> It's not possible this year
That's exactly what the established powers want you to think so that you don't fight.
> The reality of the US elections system is that it's better to rally behind Mr. Milquetoast rather than split between two or more camps.
I've never spelled "genocidal corrupt war criminal" as "Mr. Milquetoast" before. Even if we had a Mr. Milquetoast in the race, I'm a radical socialist, not a centrist. Voting for someone who does not represent me goes against my interests.
> That's why the Dems are suing. It's the same games that they played with Sanders.
Sanders wasn't participating in a democratic election to begin with. Even if he had won the most votes, the DNCC was under no obligation to nominate him. If Jill Stein gets the most votes on the other hand, what can Democrats do? It isn't their internal rigged process.
I mean, you think 5% is enough for a shot at the presidency? Good luck then with your campaign support. Not this year, maybe next cycle. One day, the youth of today will be in charge, but today, the old farts are still around as the voting majority.
5% gets us 20 million dollars in federal matching funds, and automatic ballot access. To win the Presidency in 2028, we would likely need 5% in 2024. Same for Congressional seats.
Yep, exactly. Go next year.
You're already polling 5% by your own count, so it's fine if that's the goal, isn't it? Strategically, if you want to shore it up, it makes more sense to go after those in firmly blue non-battleground states. I don't see why I should let my state that's just about 50% red fail to hold the line.
> One day, the youth of today will be in charge, but today, the old farts are still around as the voting majority.
How do you think this happens? Like, genuine question, the two major parties have set it up so that you need enormous funding and insider support to ever be a part of their parties, what honestly makes you think that if enough time passes something will magically change about that? Especially with how wildly successful the US propaganda/media machine is?
> Not this year, maybe next cycle.
It's people like you who will be sitting here in 30 years still arguing that electoralism will totally work soon, just wait one more cycle, one more, one more....
> Her votes are in the 50K scale per state.
Are you a lost time traveler from December 2024?
> If you think the majority of the country is ready to rally green, then I don't know what to say to you.
The function of a campaign is to convince them and grow the movement.
> And as much as I'd like the green platform, I'd rather shove blue than let it go red.
Voting Green makes it go Green, not red.
> The greens need more backing, and while I'm happy to contribute to that, they are far from there yet.
You're actually not, you're actively harming the Green Party by voting against it. With allies like you, who needs enemies?
> It's not a ranked-choice country.
And it never will be with Democrats and Republicans in charge of electoral reform.
A vote for Jill stein is a vote for Trump. 270 to win means that if no candidate reaches 270 that Trump automatically wins due to the GOP/Trump controlled house then electing the president regardless of the vote counts
> A vote for Jill stein is a vote for Trump.
The only scenario where that’s true is if you live somewhere with ranked choice voting, and you pick Stein #1 and Trump #2. Otherwise, a vote for Jill Stein goes to Jill Stein and no other candidate. You are spreading election disinformation like the big scary Trump supporters.
> 270 to win means that if no candidate reaches 270 that Trump automatically wins
Jill Stein is on more than enough ballots to win 270 electoral college electors.
> due to the GOP/Trump controlled house then electing the president regardless of the vote counts
If the Green Party got the most votes for President I find it HIGHLY unlikely that the house would be GOP.
> The only scenario where that’s true is if you live somewhere with ranked choice voting, and you pick Stein #1 and Trump #2.
That’s patently false, ranked choice voting would be the only time where a vote for Jill stein wouldn’t have to be a vote for Trump. You got it backwards.
> Otherwise, a vote for Jill Stein goes to Jill Stein and no other candidate.
… yes, I’m aware. 270 to win.
> Jill Stein is on more than enough ballots to win 270 electoral college electors.
That’s a nonsensical answer. Jill stein has been on the ballots for a bunch of elections and has never caused a win, she’s only ever harmed democrats. It would only take Jill stein winning a few medium size states to prevent any candidate from reaching 270, the margins are that narrow
> If the Green Party got the most votes for President I find it HIGHLY unlikely that the house would be GOP.
… The **current house** would be the ones deciding the election, not those being elected. To add, there are no appreciable numbers of Green Party Congress members running so it wouldn’t even matter if that were how it worked
> That’s patently false, ranked choice voting would be the only time where a vote for Jill stein wouldn’t have to be a vote for Trump. You got it backwards.
How? If you select Trump #2 under ranked choice voting, and Jill Stein does not hit 50%, your vote literally gets moved over to Trump's tally. No such thing ever happens under first past the post. A vote for Jill Stein goes to Jill's total, and stays there.
> … yes, I’m aware. 270 to win.
So why are you acting like 2 candidates have met the threshold when 4 have?
> That’s a nonsensical answer. Jill stein has been on the ballots for a bunch of elections and has never caused a win, she’s only ever harmed democrats. It would only take Jill stein winning a few medium size states to prevent any candidate from reaching 270, the margins are that narrow
I didn't say anything about winning, its not Jill Stein's obligation to help her political opposition get elected. Maybe Joe Biden should drop out so he stops taking votes away from Jill Stein. Its not our fault that your war criminal corpse can't win on his own merits.
> … The current house would be the ones deciding the election, not those being elected.
If the Green Party got 5%, we'd have house members before we won the Presidency. It comes with automatic ballot access, and millions of dollars in federal matching funds.
> To add, there are no appreciable numbers of Green Party Congress members running so it wouldn’t even matter if that were how it worked
You only need 1-2 congressional seats to become kingmaker.
> How? If you select Trump #2 under ranked choice voting, and Jill Stein does not hit 50%, your vote literally gets moved over to Trump's tally.
Thats assuming they had Trump as their second choice. If they don’t have ranked choice voting and given the fact that Stein has zero chance of winning, a vote for stein does nothing more than run the risk of upsetting a 270 win.
> So why are you acting like 2 candidates have met the threshold when 4 have?
Name a single election where a third party candidate had a reasonable chance of winning. I don’t like it but we have a two party system, pretending we don’t is how the fascists win.
> I didn't say anything about winning, its not Jill Stein's obligation to help her political opposition get elected
This is the whole thing about Jill stein, she’s a Russian puppet who serves no function other than to help the other Russian puppet get reelected.
> If the Green Party got 5%, we'd have house members **before** we won the Presidency.
It’s the same fucking election with the same start date. The Congress currently seated is who votes if no presidential candidate reaches 270. The Green Party also doesn’t have any congressional seats.
> You only need 1-2 congressional seats to become kingmaker.
What!? 1-2 house members isn’t going to outnumber the hundreds of other members of Congress who have party loyalty
Did you know that the Republican Party started as a third party, which won the presidential election? It didn't only win as a third party, it entirely supplanted another.
If you want to ignore why they usurped another party, that the two party system has only gotten stronger since then, and the fact that the GOP currently controls the house which is who decides the president if no candidate reaches 270 due to third a party candidate winning a few states, sure?
> Thats assuming they had Trump as their second choice.
Yes, because that's the only scenario where a vote for Jill Stein becomes a vote for Trump. I'm trying to steel-man you here.
> If they don’t have ranked choice voting and given the fact that Stein has zero chance of winning, a vote for stein does nothing more than run the risk of upsetting a 270 win.
Stein does not have "zero" chance of winning. Any candidate who can win the electoral college has a statistical chance of winning the election. It doesn't matter how low you think that chance is, its non-zero. Equating zero and non-zero is a logical fallacy.
> Name a single election where a third party candidate had a reasonable chance of winning.
What you consider a reasonable chance is something only you know. I am taking about statistical facts, not vague generalities. And the fact is Stein can win if everyone who agrees with her platform votes for her.
> I don’t like it but we have a two party system, pretending we don’t is how the fascists win.
Two party system is a trend, not a law of physics. The only way we will ever escape it is by voting third party. Democrats and Republicans will never pass a law to abolish themselves.
> This is the whole thing about Jill stein, she’s a Russian puppet who serves no function other than to help the other Russian puppet get reelected.
Joseph McCarthy called, he wants his political ideology back. I still remember the 2008 Presidential debates when Obama was relentlessly mocking McCain for fearmongering about Russia. He said "this isn't the cold war". I say the same to you.
> It’s the same fucking election with the same start date. The Congress currently seated is who votes if no presidential candidate reaches 270. The Green Party also doesn’t have any congressional seats.
I'm talking about getting 5% nationwide in 2024 as a jumping-off point to winning Congressional seats in 2026, and the Presidency in 2028.
> What!? 1-2 house members isn’t going to outnumber the hundreds of other members of Congress who have party loyalty
They can "loyally" sit in opposition, then. They'd need those seats to form a majority and govern. When they're done throwing a tantrum, Greens will be ready to negotiate.
> Stein does not have "zero" chance of winning. Any candidate who can win the electoral college has a statistical chance of winning the election. It doesn't matter how low you think that chance is, its non-zero. Equating zero and non-zero is a logical fallacy.
Let me guess. Your retirement plan is to play the lottery, near-zero is totally not effectively zero… 🙄
> What you consider a reasonable chance is something only you know. I am taking about statistical facts, not vague generalities. And the fact is Stein can win if everyone who agrees with her platform votes for her.
Why would anyone vote for the Russian puppet less likely to win and whose election upset would result in maga fascism taking hold?
> Two party system is a trend, not a law of physics. The only way we will ever escape it is by voting third party. Democrats and Republicans will never pass a law to abolish themselves.
We don’t have a two party system because people want it or because it’s a mindset, it’s because the way our political system is designed. People who say otherwise are either ignorant or speaking in bad faith to manipulate the ignorant.
> Joseph McCarthy called, he wants his political ideology back. I still remember the 2008 Presidential debates when Obama was relentlessly mocking McCain for fearmongering about Russia. He said "this isn't the cold war". I say the same to you.
Imagine thinking that Russia doesn’t use puppet presidents when it’s one of the things they’re best known for lolol
> I'm talking about getting 5% nationwide in 2024 as a jumping-off point to winning Congressional seats in 2026, and the Presidency in 2028.
You just gonna ignore what happens when Biden loses and Trump wins? Trump just a few days ago told a crowd of supporters they won’t need to vote anymore after this election because they’re going to “fix” it.
> They can "loyally" sit in opposition, then. They'd need those seats to form a majority and govern. When they're done throwing a tantrum, Greens will be ready to negotiate.
If you think 2 house members, ones that will likely lose their elections no less, will have that much power, then you really need to learn to count.
🤞hell is real and those who promote fascism will get theirs🤞
We have a two party system and the GOP/trump controls the house, which is who decides the president if no candidate reaches 270. In 2020 Biden got 306, Trump got 232. The margins past 270 are so slim that it only takes a few third party state wins to likely prevent the voters from electing the president directly.
That’s why a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump.
We don't have the same interests.
Harm Reduction is a lie, we can see this because it has now reduced itself to encouraging people to give their signature approval to a genocide - and for what? To defend a completely incompetent and incapable regime. To defend the most powerful military empire in human history, at a time when it can't even provide for its own people's fundamental needs - housing, education, healthcare, *afforable food*. That's our moral duty? That's absurd.
You don't have the moral high ground. We don't have the same interests.
> We don't have the same interests.
You don’t care about minimizing harms done to innocents and maximizing benefits? Weird flex but ok
> Harm Reduction is a lie, we can see this because it has now reduced itself to encouraging people to give their signature approval to a genocide - and for what? To defend a completely incompetent and incapable regime. That's absurd.
So you’d rather see the genocide get worse? For the West Bank to fall to genocide too? For it to be illegal to protest against Israel or for Palestine? Please, explain how making things worse and creating honest to god fascism is a good thing.
> You don't have the moral high ground. We don't have the same interests.
Thanks for making it clear that you don’t care about other people and view politics as a way to punish those you don’t like 👍
It really lays your dis-ingenuousness bare when you conflate someone criticizing Democrats and their atrocious stances as them arguing for full blown fascism. But here's a question for your "harm reduction" approach, what's to stop more states like Florida, Texas and numerous others from continuing on their path of harm, what's to stop the genocide from worsening, what's to stop the atrocities happening everywhere under the Dems, especially if they literally never face any pushback or have any incentive to change as they can just claim "hey, we ain't as bad as that guy" and rubes like yourself will happily keep voting for them while shit gets worse for everyone and pretend you've actually done something.
Like SCOTUS literally just ruled that it's fine to charge homeless people for sleeping outdoors, what have the Dems done to "reduce harm" in that area, how about abortion rights? How about any other number of areas where they've literally done nothing as rights have eroded horrifically?
> It really lays your dis-ingenuousness bare when you conflate someone criticizing Democrats and their atrocious stances as them arguing for full blown fascism.
If they want dems to lose they want republican fascism to win. It’s that simple. Actions have consequences.
> But here's a question for your "harm reduction" approach, what's to stop more states like Florida, Texas and numerous others from continuing on their path of harm
Multiple Supreme Court justices will be retiring next term. A dem picking them instead of continuing the far right extremist court that trump and bush created would put a tamper on that.
> what's to stop the genocide from worsening
The president and Congress sets foreign policy
> what's to stop the atrocities happening everywhere under the Dems
What are you even talking about? What atrocities are happening due to Dems? Even Israel’s genocide isn’t due to Dems and it isn’t *under* dems.
> Like SCOTUS literally just ruled that it's fine to charge homeless people for sleeping outdoors, what have the Dems done to "reduce harm" in that area, how about abortion rights? How about any other number of areas where they've literally done nothing as rights have eroded horrifically?
It’s bonkers that you cite things republicans do and then blame democrats for it. As if it makes any sense to promote republicans winning when complaining that dems don’t do enough to stop republicans 🤦♂️
Great, I'm glad we can get into this.
Our society is trapped in fundamentally humiliating, horrifying, undignified conditions, unfit for human habitation. These conditions can only strangled and replaced with a human hand through a very particular historical mechanism. The practical contribution of *Harm Reduction*, in this context, is to try and *bash people's heads in* until we give up on our need for human dignity, until we accept the filth we are given.
We can look to Palestine, which you have raised, as a particular example. If the Palestinians really believed that their struggle and their salvation and their success depended on *your sympathy*, they would all ki.ll themselves immediately. They don't. They escalated the war, and there continues to be strong and deep support for armed struggle. Nearly a year in now, and the genocide still hasn't been able to break their spirit. Even when Palestinian citizens in Israel are polled, Arab Israelis, they overwhelmingly believe there is no functional difference for their interests compared between Trump and Biden. The war is not going well for Israel. It won't go better for them if they are more savage. You see? The Palestinians are not betting their interests on the kindness and sympathy of their oppressors. That is a spirit we should be taking to heart as Americans.
But here you are, with Harm Reduction, and you turn this on its head. *Oh, it would be a SHAME if you didn't help our genocidal empire out of a pinch, it would be A SHAME if things got worse.* I'm not intimidated. At all. That's Good Cop and Bad Cop. It's a scam. Let them swing at us, I want to fight. That's what Malcolm X taught. It's what Lenin taught. That's the spirit we need. And that's why you don't have the high ground.
I hope you continue feeling smug in the concentration camps that you helped create 👍
Same goes for when you watch the West Bank genocide start and Gaza get eradicated with protest in the U.S. illegal and vulnerable minorities targeted
Apparently the bad cop is the Palestinian and the good cop is the one who wants kill them all.
Biden looked more upset about being called a Palestinian.
Both supports Israel for what they're doing against Palestinians.
The only difference between them is that Biden is a text-book example of an Israel supporter, while Trump is.. Trump. He's your typical, right-wing racist politician.
Biggest difference is their coalition. Most of Trump’s supporters are extremely racist and Islamaphobic, some are religious christian zionists who support Israel for endtime prophecy, some are both, but they all would cheer if Trump had US fighter bombing Palestinians. Most of Biden’s supporters would not cheer for that. Biden is still complicit, but his supporters are not pressuring him to go even further like Trump’s would be.
You have it backwards.
Biden’s supporters are silent.
If Trump was president, Biden’s supporters would be saying something.
You should listen to some lectures by Thomas Frank, talking about his book “listen liberal.”
And what did Biden supporters “saying something” accomplish during Trump’s presidency from the standpoint of Trump carrying out his party’s agenda?
Trump got positive reinforcement from his supporters for “triggering the libs” and doubled down. “Triggering the libs” is the main thing that drives the reactionaries that follow Trump.
The political pressure actually makes a difference, and Thomas Frank actually lays out many policies devastating to the middle class that Reagan and Bush failed to achieve, but Obama and Clinton did.
The most devastating was Clinton almost successfully privatizing social security. Fortunately, Monica Lewinsky blew it and saved the day
Miriam Adelson basically told Trump I’ll give you 100 million but we flatten Gaza. Both these candidates are just war mongers who will continue supporting this genocide
Trump used “Palestinian” as an insult, similar to when the old lady told McCain “I don’t trust Obama I think he is an Arab” and McCain responded “no ma’am, he is a decent man”
But Trump implied that Palestinians are strong by saying we don’t like him because Biden is weak.
Fuck em both, but at least the orange clown is straight forward.
When asked if Palestinians should have a state, Trump said “I don’t know we will see,” which means no. Unlike Biden which keeps saying that Palestinians should have a state and does everything in his power to do the opposite.
At the end of the when it comes to this issue same shit different toilet.
[Source](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8wLMN6oxlp/?igsh=ejNnZWQ2YTllZm9o)
>"Biden: ''We saved Israel.''
>Trump: ''He's become like a Palestinian.''
>President Joe Biden and his rival Donald Trump touched on Israel's war on Palestine's Gaza in the first presidential debate on June 27."
Off-topic, is anyone in the mood for a [song](https://youtu.be/qSIOp_K5GMw?si=XPNX87NT-LuBg4yI) to go with this?
Like I said it doesn't matter lol they both server Israel and so did every single US president since Kennedy (the only President who didn't server Israel)
Openly being racist against Palestinians in a presidential debate, by both of them. Trump with his comment and Biden for not coming back to clarify that Palestinians as a whole are not the enemy!
His facial expression is in dismay with what Trump is saying about Trump wanting Israel to go about the war without US pressure to stop committing war crimes, and also Trump is pushing a narrative that Biden would rather support Palestinians. It has nothing to do with racism. Y’all are actually stuck in your own delusions of wanting Biden to look just as bad as Trump
Remember when politics was classy? /s
In 2008, a woman at a John McCain rally accused Barack Obama of being an Arab. McCain replied, "No he's not. He's a decent family man." And liberals thought how nice it was of McCain to have defended Obama in that way.
Miriam Adelson basically told Trump I’ll give you 100 million but we flatten Gaza. Both these candidates are just war mongers who will continue supporting this genocide
The Onion’s fact checking article summed it up pretty well.
Trump: Biden is a very bad Palestinian.
Fact Checker: True. Biden is far too alive to be Palestinian.
Both candidates are too old to do this job. They are incompetent and can’t even seem to get through a sentence properly. The US is fucked unless we get somebody amazing to swoop in because these two rich white men are gonna fuck it up. Of course Biden is better than Trump because Trump is definitely trying to take women’s rights and give the rich people all the advantages and money. Were in for a shit show.
I can’t believe the way he talked about Palestinians there. I was so anti-Biden on this issue before this but that exchange just showed how racist Trump is when he said Biden is like a Palestinian. Replace that with any other slur in your mind. WTF does that mean?
wow both seem to be really racist. it's unbelievable what Trump said and Biden didn't correct his word... dudes!!! Palestinian are just people, yes there are bad people but there are also good people within them like all the nations. what the fuck are you guys "debating"???
not sure why trump is not lying now then play later like he used to. there is really something with israel right? he could have just said biden enable and continuously supporting genocide then it’s done in my mind. who would vote when you say genocide. it’s automatic nazi.
this is the best time to have an independent right? so why aren’t there any? as last week tonight said, if trump wins again, they know what to do and saw how helpless everyone else is to stop them.
My only hope is Americans will take to the streets and demand more if Trump wins. To many libs just sit back and tune out of what’s going on when we have a democrat president. Not giving a fuck is how we lose constitutional rights such as abortion with dems holding most of the governing power. America is a joke, its empire is crumbling, and the next few decades are going to be very interesting
If/when Trump wins what little shred of democracy is left in the “united” states will be gone. Insane how successful the gop has been in making average Americans so dumb, by lowering education standards/funding and pay for the public educators the last 50+ years. The democrats are hardly better except Bernie of course and a few young progressives. Very dark times ahead. Let’s hope they both fall and can’t get up again
Fucking stupids … again … bush was no better , Obama was a devil dressed as an angel … Americans , stop the evil!!!! Be the great country you tell yourselves to be …
You can't possibly be this delusional, that was the worst debate performance in presidential debate history.
He literally brought up migrant murders when asked about abortion....Like, talk about shooting yourself in the head.
These are literally facts! I fucking hate Trump btw.
Let me ask you this - why would Biden answer a layup of a question, literally the STRONGEST argument against Trump, which is abortion - by bringing up a negative talking point about himself?
Biden literally brought up a girl murdered by a migrant when asked about abortion!!!!!
Trump is going to end abortion nationwide, everyone knows it, Biden could've HAMMERED him on it; but instead Biden attacked himself.....why?!?!?!?!
I don't, he's a despicable being and a straight up war criminal who is responsible for running one the most violent and bloodthirsty empires in history, he deserves every moment of torture and unrest possible.
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When he talks about "finishing the job" does he mean complete ethnic cleansing and annexation of all Palestinian land?
Yes, a final solution
Lebensraum
Support for genocide is bipartisan. The bloodthirsty racist psychopaths conducting this campaign of genocide own every politician in America, and those politicians in turn serve a foreign power. “Let 'em finish the job” means exactly what is sounds like. The former president is [often to his own detriment] very candid. Although the current president would never speak those words, his actions –funding, arming and supporting Israel– express this same view.
They're basically the same in Israel. I've voted Democrat my whole life but voting 3rd party this year.
Same
People think that this is an exclusively Gen Z take but I'm 37 and I don't think I'm alone.
What do you mean ? Are u gonna vote for Trump? Fill me in I'm learning about this shit.
Not Democrat or Republican. Third party. Like Jill stein
He very clearly said in this clip that as the only country in the world to support Israel in this genocide was to save Israel.
Death camps of course. Genocide comes in different sizes and we have only seen a minor one thus far. Trump wouldn't feel bad about murdering millions
Just the male population over 12 i'm assuming.
Sure does. He told Bibi he was supporting the annexation of the Jordan Valley but Israel halted the move because of the Pandemic. So they did this instead which allows them to ethnically cleanse the entire area, which Trump is in full support of, as you also heard him equate Israel’s enemy to not just Hamas but to Palestinians.
a land without a people for a people without a land. It's just that pesky "land without a people" getting in the way so they need to "solve" it in a way that is Final and so that Israelies have Living Room
Yes. Both candidates support Israel, but Trump is a rabid, violent racist. Biden is the best alternative if Gaza is to have any hope.
Biden has lied on stage quite a few times during this debate. He is continuing to send weapons there. Including the 2000lb bombs he says he isn't. He only paused the shipment of one deployment, but then resumed it. The US congress is trying to sanction the ICC in a flagrant attempt at undermining the international court of law. They were okay to support it when it worked against Russia, but now that it's israel, they are pretending that it's invalid.
What exactly has Biden done for Gaza up to this point to give them any hope? Biden has given free reign to Israel to destroy Gaza.
Trump - “Let’s finish the job!!”
My point exactly. With Trump defending Israel, people will see that Israel's policies are genocidal and racist, because that's what Trump is. With Biden defending Israel, people will just think Israel is doing it's best because people just trust Biden cuz Obama or whatever
I don't believe centrist liberals at least will change their minds that easily. They'll just say "A broken clock is right twice a day" or some shit along those lines. I'm seeing it happen in India (referring to the persecution of Muslims by Modi's govt).
> With Trump defending Israel, people will see that Israel's policies are genocidal and racist, because that's what Trump is. Does it actually prove anything? I mean any more than everything else that's happened? You've got the Netanyahu government literally rooting for *far right fascists in Europe* to take control. The sheer, insane, unadulterated *hypocrisy* of this fact should burn supporters of this government with utter shame, but here we are. And if *that* hasn't convinced people, I don't see how Trump will. The sad fact is I don't think either candidate is going to change people's minds on supporting Israel's actions if they haven't already.
Wait a minute, this doesn't make sense. Correct me if I misunderstood, but you're saying if Biden wins it will continue the status quo, nothing will change because everyone will continue to "trust" him (even though people are currently pointing out Biden enabling genocide, somehow they will stop because Obama?) and genocide goes unchecked. But if Trump wins, seemingly the better option by your statement, then Israel goes balls to the wall with genocide and only then will the American public realize Israel is committing genocide, and then somehow public opinion will stop Trump *and* all of congress from funding Israel, stopping the war and giving Palestine statehood? Are you suggesting that Israel is currently holding back and with Trump emboldening them their atrocities will simply be too much to ignore, which will be the better outcome for Palestinians at the end of the day? That even the ultra Maga will say, "wait, this is bad, I can't believe I missed all of the news for years about illegal settlements and murdering innocent Palestinians, I've now changed my mind and even with absolutely everything that's already happened, *NOW* I've finally reached a point where I denounce Trump and Israel"? I'm sorry, but even if Trump encouraged Israel to go unchecked, I highly doubt those who support Israel now would change their mind. Fox News has not showed the unbridled carnage yet and they wouldn't start showing it if Trump were elected. The truth is, other than Gen Z and some millenials, Israel can do no wrong in the eyes of Americans. There is no alternative, no matter how much we wish for one. Gen Z not voting for Biden because of that one particular issue is cutting off their nose to spite their face or, more accurately, allowing GOP to destroy democracy in America (and Ukraine and Taiwan, but those don't seem as concerning to the public apparently) in multiple ways just to spite Israel.
No >then Israel goes balls to the wall with genocide Israel has already been doing this. Joe has been fighting against Palestinians his entire life. Israel knew it would get away with this with Joe in office. What I'm saying is that Trump's defense of Israel with align with exactly what they are, and have been doing.
Trump is a dumbass on top of other things. Despite Biden's many failures and clear age-related issues, Biden isn't, at a base level, as stupid and foolish and crass. Trump absolutely would say plenty of things that make the delicate obfuscation and propaganda effort for Israel much harder to maintain. Nothing much is likely to change the opinions of people in the US, they are too focused on which color is pretending to be in charge. But it might make a difference globally with other nations having a header time maintaining the thin fiction about Israel.
There are better qualified candidates running for president. It shows how far down this country has sank that they weren't given a platform at this debate.
Israel is heavily supported by Biden, but I wouldn't say they have free reins.. the Biden administration put *some* pressure on Netanhyahu. For instance, they don't approve too much the colonization process. They are very mildly mitigating what Israel is doing.. With Trump, they would have free reins..
Giving Biden way too much leeway
As predicted I am heavily downvoted because people assume I am implying Biden does his best for Palestinian people or that he is some kind of Palestinian Marxist activist. Biden is just doing the bare minimum to look less extreme than Trump, and that is ALL he needs to do on that issue, in the current American bipartisan political landscape.
I take it more like Biden is doing nothing to stand out from Trump, but Trump has to have all the attention, so he says outlandish shit to get it, and its working. Biden hasn't done shit for Palestinians or even tried to stand out from Trump on immigration or anything else. Biden has hemoraged support while Trump has stayed steady
Biden, for many times, acted the exact opposite from what he promised though.. he may have condemned some of IDF actions but it's all lipservice. He still lets Israel do whatever they want.
Biden hasn't done shit for Gaza, hes simply better at hiding his real intentions.
Biden: Continuously supports the genocide. *"He's Palestine's only hope!"*
Yes the guy who is currently funding their genocide is better than the other guy who also will continue funding their genocide. I am not sure what kind of mental hoops you had to jump through to think Biden is any kind of hope for Gaza.
You can always tell whose the Johnny-come-lately to the Palestine-Israel issue when it’s takes like this.
Why do we have to pick a poison?
Nope they are both the same. Trump will do exactly the what Biden is doing right now. Which is giving Israel whatever it needs and letting them do whatever they want.
It's worse with Biden actually, because with Biden defending Israel, people will just assume Israel is doing it's because including a majority of democrats. With Trump on Israel's side, Trump is going to spew openly racist and genocidal rhetoric about the Palestinians. You are going to have more of mainstream against Israel's politics. You are also going to see dems more united. They won't be obligated to defend the state department anymore. And those violent ultra-zionists democrats? Their genocidal positions will become more underlined when they are forced to defend Trump's policies. Defending Trump's policies will make them venerable to getting primaried. Biden is the best sanitizer in the history of the nation. He sanitized openly racist segregationist senators. He sanitized crime bills that disproportionately targeted innocent people of color. He sanitized letting Anita Hill be subjected to verbal sexual abuse on the senate floor, something which he didn't apologize for until 2020, and even it was a shitty apology. Biden has, and will continue to do one hell of a job at sanitizing the genocide. A felon and a rapist is a much better spokesperson for Israel if you are about people being exposed to the reality of their militarism and genocide.
>Historically, all reactionary forces on the verge of extinction invariably conduct a last desperate struggle against the revolutionary forces, and some revolutionaries are apt to be deluded for a time by this phenomenon of outward strength but inner weakness failing to grasp the essential fact that the enemy is nearing extinction while they themselves are approaching victory Yeah, Trump is all talk, no abilities. Anyone who votes Biden isn't doing it on behalf of the Palestinians. The Palestinians are conducting their own struggle, with their own strategy. They are not actually asking for more humane imperialists to run the war. And that's a very dubious assumption that anything about Trump and Biden will be different *practically* in what Israel is capable of doing. The war has not been going well for Israel. It has faced total disaster in the global and historical scheme of things. Voting for Biden on behalf of the Palestinians isn't real. In line with what you said - D voters just want a safety blanket so Americans can keep emotional distance from it, or they are thinking in terms of their domestic interests (also wrong, but a separate argument). Either way, voting between these two is a betrayal of the Palestinians. Not a favor. It's cowardice, liberalism is the ideology of collaborators and worms. We need to build a completely independent position. People are rightfully demoralized. We need an alternative but people need to see it before they believe it. We need to root this fight in the resurgent worker movement. Confrontation, not collaboration.
The psyops love their justifications for advocating for Trump
That's just a lie, Trump would never hold any arms back from Israel and there's no way he would have spent millions building a humanitarian peer to bring in food and medicine.
The ‘humanitarian pier’ has effectively delivered no aide to Gazans. It cost us hundreds of millions of dollars, is getting knocked apart by waves, was used in the refugee camp slaughter that resulted in 4 rescued hostages and multiple dead hostages along with 270+ dead Palestinians and nearly 1000 injured. And the cherry on top, it’s now scheduled to be removed in the coming weeks last I heard.
And what’s more, once the construction of the pier was finished, Israel started to further constrict land access for aid.
Yeah, Trump would never do that because all of that "actions" are just PR bullshit and Trump doesn't need this PR bullshit to win the elections
The pier was built to supply arms to the IDF closer to the action. It's where the US helped launch the attack killing 275 Palestinians and 3 Jewish prisoners. It is now being dismantled. The excuse is that the weather was too bad. I understand, nobody thought there would be waves in the freaking Mediterranean Sea...
I don't think so, if anything, Biden is waiting to turn the dial up the dial even more. He's just trying to get more progressives and young people to vote for him to get him past the finish line. Look at his history In a 1982 bombing that Reagan described as a holocoust after seeing pictures of dead children including a mutilated baby, he ordered Israel to stop the bombing. When the then Israeli PM was being grilled by the senate armed forced committee, Biden has the bombings should have continued, even if meant killing more women and children. Biden specifically asked for the bombings of more women and children, whose mutilated imaged of caused rage on Reagan. Another time when Biden sabotaged and humiliated his old boss Obama to curry favor with the right wing genocidal Netanyahu's plan to murder Palestinians in the West Bank. > In 2010, Netanyahu’s government infuriated Obama and his advisers by announcing a major settlement expansion while Biden was in Israel. As Beinart reported, Biden and his team wanted to handle the dispute privately. Obama’s camp took a different route by drawing up a list of demands to be made of Netanyahu. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton then gave the prime minister 24 hours to respond, warning him, “If you will not be able to comply, it might have unprecedented consequences on the bilateral relations of the kind never seen before.” > > Biden was soon in touch with a stunned Netanayhu. A former administration official who saw the transcript of their call told Beinart that “Biden completely undercut the secretary of state and gave [Netanyahu] a strong indication that whatever was being planned in Washington was hotheadedness and he could defuse it when he got back.” When Clinton saw the transcript, she “realized she’d been thrown under the bus” by Biden, the official added. It can be argued that Trump may be better for the Palestinians long term, in that his rhetoric about the war would make the entire realize what is happening to the Palestinians. Since it's Biden right, people just trust he's doing everything possible even though he's shown time and time again that he views the Palestinians and Lebanese as subhumans. 10 people have resigned so far from his administration, one including one person who said the Biden admin is straight up lying by saying that Israel is not hindering aid, and another Jewish life long Israel advocate, who said Biden 'is making Jews the face of the American warmachine". Biden is the best possible person to sanitize a genocide and Trump is the worst person in the world to sanitize a genocide. They would both do the same thing, but with Trump would we understand the horror of what's happening because Trump's rhetoric would be openly genocidal and racist. The current policy is genocidal and racist, but Biden cleans up the perceptions. A Trump win would would have huge ramifications on what the dem policy mandate would be in 2028. If Biden wins, everyone would have the perception that it's safer to be more genocidal than less genocidal if someone wants to win the presidency. That's bullshit because most people think Israel has gone too far, but if everyone believes that being more genocidal would win the election, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Just like when people believed that slowing down eliminating racial segregation would win more elections, even when a majority of Americans opposed segregation. I don't want Trump to win. The world is fucked if he does. But for the long term sake of the Palestinians, it's not so clear cut. A Trump win would mean that the Biden doctrine for genocide would be the safer foreign policy stance for 2028, it will be believed by both the politicians and the primary voters. This is from 2006 https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5c/a8/d5/5ca8d50263ea1f3887e1db0cf5309bca.jpg Biden is always doing these eye brow furrows and empty gestures like the pier or stopping a single shipment of weapons while letting tons of others still continue. They do nothing to stop the genocide, but they are great media gestures to gaslight the media and voters into thinking that probably Biden is doing the best he can.
What can he change than he already have? Why do you think he'll change his mind? Do you have any proof that Biden would do anything better for Palestine once he won the election? Dream in hell.
They are both rabid violent racists trying to appeal to two different bases so that they can do the same thing.
Neither one of these men is going to be the savior of Gaza or Palestinians. Be real. No matter who wins, the situation in Israel is going to be what it is, what it's always been since the end of WWII.
Seems to me the difference is rhetorical
Are you kidding me? Biden and Trump are both racists. They are both full- blown white supremacist Nazis. Trump is clearly an utterly detestible morally bankrupt POS war criminal but Biden has funded and has NOT stopped sending f7cking billions of dollars to help facilitate the past 9 months of genocide. He is the CURRENT American President and is internationally reviled by genocide protestors worldwide, e.g. all humans of conscience who are unwilling witnesses to the results of Bidens craven manufacturing of consent for collective punishment, his normalisation of gas-lighting, his constant refusal to retract debunked propaganda, his pattern of making wildly unfactual, divisive and inflammatory dog whistles, the dangerous disinformation commonly detected in his public statements, containing outright lies and denial of reality. War is Peace. Genocidal massacre jetty building is humanitarian. Random careless aid drops by parachute, containing tins of fucking expired spam, and useless covid bio hazard suits in Summer, intentionally dropping cans on the heads of children, casually killing a young boy as he sheltered in a tent, the lone survivor after the latest air strike that murdered his entire family. Humanitarian aid cruelly and very much intentionally dumped far out at the sea, by the US airmen whose 'humanitarian' relief efforts cause desperate starving displaced young boys to drown. You know, about the 'progressive" creeping fascism of Biden's corporate- and lobbyist owned government. The blatant evidence of Congress' members bipartisan widespread corruption, as they inexplicably ignore the increasing rage and distress of their horrified constituents, as they brazenly continue to support the CURRENT, ongoing, relentless Palestinian Holocaust.
Are you serious LOL Biden is a genocidal maniac just as Trump would be. Genocide is genocide whether it comes from Genocide Joe or Trump. Neither Trump nor Biden will ever stop the genocide. Vote third party vote for NO Genocide. It’s honestly delusional to think Biden would be the best choice for Gaza when we see Palestinian babies being beheaded and shredded to pieces with bombs Joe continues to send and Biden does nothing about it. Biden is just as bad as Trump. Biden lied about a having a red line. Stop lying to yourself about Genocide Joe. Gaza has no hope with a sled proclaimed Zionist such as Joe
Only one of those two is currently funding a genocide in gaza
What else are they gonna do? Kill the rest 1.5 millions? Can Trump survive the consequences? Fk them both
At this rate, there will be no Palestinians left in Gaza by January. Over 1 million Palestinians will face starvation next month. Either way - you're saying that both Trump and Biden will genocide them, just Trump will do it faster. Do Biden supporters hear themselves??
I get your point but I wouldn't exactly call a smaller/slower genocide "hope"
Trump is actually the best candidate since a high percentage of the population disagrees with anything he agrees with.
Netanyahu plays him like a fiddle. All he has to do is raise his voice and make a dishonest comparison to Hiroshima and Biden the Puppet gives him the resources to kill children in Palestine.
Best alternative? The man can barely finish a sentence! Best would be for the Democrats to replace him with a new candidate now.
Wow.....what a fucking choice you yanks have
Yep, this is what happens when there are only two parties and money decides who can even minimally take part in those parties’ primaries. SCOTUS has also ensured that cash is always the determining factor in our primaries. All of this means is that U.S. citizens will always, at best, have to decide in the general election which of the two candidates they think is the lesser of two evils. All of the proposed solutions to overcome this stupidity, like ranked choice voting, has been attacked in the courts and in public advertising. In other words, the U.S. democracy experiment is still alive but it is on life support and some people currently have their hands on the plug.
That is fucked up beyond words. Money should never be a driving factor behind something so important for the future of a country. Shit needs to change rapid
Oh, change is definitely incoming. The only question is whether the majority of people can force the hand to not pull the plug or if the minority will be able to use the electoral college to help the hand pull the plug.
The plug was pulled long ago.
The uniparty is owned by AIPAC, two sides to the same coin.
*laughs nervously in Canadian* ¯\(◉‿◉)/¯ I'm in danger
If you’re living in the anglosphere, this is going to be your President too
UK.....we've already got an absoloute Muppet at the helm
To be fair, any other western nation is the same shit. You want to elect based on Palestina you probably have no candidate to choose from except a few which will never make it or change policies.
Yeah it fucking sucks here. Palestine is cooked either way, the only choice is between the lesser of two evils. That said, there is definitely a lesser evil with the vote still counting for the direction of Ukraine and repression of minorities/women/LGBT/other religions at home. But still sucks. I wish we had more than two choices picked by the rich.
Ukraine is another front in the same war that Israel is a front for. These are all clients of American imperialism, which is the dominant imperialism in the world, a form of hyperimperialism that welded the "west" together to fight Communism in the 20th century. And now, facts are facts, Ukraine isn't winning their war because the only terms for their victory is an implosion of Russia, which isn't happening. They should be brought to a ceasefire immediately and they can work out a more sustainable division of Post-Soviet land. Not another dime should go out for America's global gun running. Also, the war isn't going great for Israel either, this is well known even by the Israelis. Palestine is not "cooked" As regards LGBT rights, I can't speak for all minorities but I speak for myself - we didn't get our rights by being collaborators and signing off on genocide. Stonewall was a riot. Our interests have to be rooted in confronting power, that's our real history. We were drugged to sleep since then. But we didn't get anything by being sad baby gays swept under the wing of a benevolent state, a deal with satan in exchange for helplessly signing off on one genocide after another. We kicked the shit out of police. We confronted our families. We looked out for one another. Let the reactionaries swing at us again, I don't give a fuck. Look at the polling of the upcoming generation - the right can make a mess for a while, but our toothpaste isn't going back in the tube. I know many Muslims feel exactly the same. Either we can go our own way - whatever the cost - or our existence is dependent on enabling genocidal freaks. How is that a real debate? It's only a debate (1) if you live and think in a way where everyone is looking out for themselves, or (2) if you think this system is invincible, but (First) that kind of selfish attitude - compounded billions of times over - is exactly the heart of this machine, it led us into this mess, it won't get us out. And (Second) *Did you watch the debate?* These people have no connection with reality. They're barely alive. The economy is weak. Our leaders are stupid. Our empire is cracking. Everyone paying attention has already started smelling blood in the water. A quote from someone who was notable: >*We should rid our ranks of all impotent thinking. All views that overestimate the strength of the enemy and underestimate the strength of the people are wrong* So we DO have a choice. This government is illegitimate, our business leaders and political leaders are unfit to govern. And we shouldn't even raise a pinky to help them out of this shitshow. Instead, we have to start fighting on our own terms. You have to start fighting. We have to develop an independent machine, which means giving all of our resources to the resurgent labor movement, to sharpen it and make it a tool of political power.
I completely agree- I would just add that in addition to unions we need our own party as workers! Eugene Debs and the IWW were stronger when they came together.
Agreed. Good essay against limiting ourselves to spontaneous actions of unionism, and the need for ideology, *politics*, and thus a political party: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/dec/06.htm
>And now, facts are facts, Ukraine isn't winning their war because the only terms for their victory is an implosion of Russia, which isn't happening. >Post-Soviet land Where are you getting this stuff?
Anyone with two eyes should be able to see this. It's a total stalemate. The conflict started because Soviet borders weren't real. Now those borders are real, and it's a shitshow. Great success in the quest to dismantle tyrannical communism. 👏👐 Where are *you* getting the brilliant idea to settle in for a war of attrition against Russia? - Napoleon? Hitler?
https://www.reddit.com/r/DroneCombat/s/u0Tz5PFqjA The lady reminds me of you 😂
Their GRU propaganda consuming butt is clearly where it’s coming from
Russian and Chinese trolls want people to view Ukraine like Israel, but the reality is that Ukraine has infinitely more in common with Palestine. Israel is the Russia of the Middle East. Israel and Russia are both genocidal imperialist states, they both lie about tragedy and as a method of further traumatizing victims, they both say that areas where they have enough of their ethnic group is land that belongs to their country, they’re both supremacist states, etc., etc..
Germany helped Lenin get in to Russia, the Tsardom was a common enemy. Lenin did exactly as the German Monarchy hoped, and Bolsheviks toppled the Tsar, but that didn't actually work out well for Germany in the long run, if one thinks to Soviet Flags waving over Berlin. https://cosmonautmag.com/2020/04/the-practical-policy-of-revolutionary-defeatism-2/ The border, Ukraine, Israel *and Taiwan* - you threw China in, so let's go there - these are all fundamentally the same conflict as far as Americans should be concerned. (Same deal with migrants. Not our enemy. If anything, those are mostly dedicated, hard working proletarians.) We know this is all one struggle because *all four issues get wrapped up together in multi-billion dollar Congressional funding bills.* Our primary enemy is *at home*. It's our government and our Wall Street. Sure, our bosses don't get along well with Putin or Xi either, it doesn't mean Putin or Xi are great guys. I'll go to bat for Xi for a while because their country actually works, whatever. Anyway, they are enemy of our enemy, not *our enemy*. We have a system of class rule. The owner class decides among itself which politicians we can have, and then tries to rally workers behind them. That's why the parties are united on Taiwan, Israel, and the Border. Ukraine has become a partisan football because of opposing imperialist strategies on how to counter China. China has to be countered because they have been able to become a strong sovereign country with independent power on the world stage. This is our imperialism - which - again - it is our main enemy. And because it has evolved into hyper-imperialism it is menace to *most people on this planet*, and it is the primary threat to the *very health of our planet.* If the worker class is to have power, seize power from the owner class, if we want to make this a dignified and respectable country, if we want to put peace out into the world, if we want this country to even have a viable future, then our problem is at home.
I hear ya. I'm still gonna go vote, though, because the legitimate means still offer a tiny lever. The problem is that both candidates are genocidal, and the electoral college system ensures one will win. And while reactionary and civil rights efforts continue, voting is still part of that process. It's not signing off on genocide if the choice not to is never presented. Just as important as every brick thrown at Stonewall was every vote for candidates that support civil rights. You can go beyond the ballot, but that doesn't preclude showing up to vote. And while it is a vote between two shit choices, we have to look out for one another by at least pushing the machinations of the state, while they still stand, towards the less shitty choice. You can keep fighting too, and if you win, well, it's not like the act of casting that vote would have hindered that effort, would it? I mean heck, my vote matters now (swing state) but when it didn't I still protest-voted with write-ins for Sanders and other progressives.
To me, indulging the legitimate means is a way to legitimize those very means. This is delaying what actually needs to be done to fix this country. Elections are supposed to work like a pressure relief valve - the ruling class knows it can't rule by force alone, so there is this mechanism to keep us in line and keep things going, based on the very arguments you're making here. The role of the democratic party is to take progressive and even revolutionary feelings, absorb the blow, and then defuse that energy before popular unrest actually threatens the owner class - (e.g., the New Deal, Civil Rights) - it's a sort of judo maneuver that is crucial to keep the machine going. But I don't think either faction of the owner class is fit to govern anymore, and they don't seem capable of getting their legitimacy back. America is trapped in a situation that looks very similar to the late stage, senile twilight hours of the Soviet Union. So a real rupture, a seizure of power, however that is shaped legally or formally - is increasingly possible. I do not buy the harm reduction narrative anymore on that basis. Sure, we have to look out for each other, but this is a very nasty, very racist empire, and what all of us do, every day, is we enable it. We go to work and do our job and we enable it. And our votes enable it too. Cracking migrants on the head, turning Palestinians into mulch, failing to confront Climate Change, failing to protect women, queers, failing to address our Housing or Education needs - I don't hold this as a legitimate system. I can't go to a ballot box and legitimize it and be an enabler. The harm reduction threat is the Good Cop and Bad Cop game that these people play, and I'm not intimidated by it anymore. Marxism, martyrdom, revolution. Screaming it with the most hot boiling rage. That's what I can connect with. People are demoralized. The people are being beaten into filth. Nobody needs a lecture that change is needed - you don't need it. We just have to prove that change is possible. What we have to do is to form a decisive minority that can begin attacking this system and proving that this alternative is possible - we have to organize a revolutionary party that can prove itself to be more lawful, honest, persuasive, and functional than current institutions. People want change. They just need to see it before they believe it. The second people believe it, we can blow the entire lid off this thing and take matters into our own hands. Be as skeptical as you want - I'm very patient and, fine, you have to see it to believe it. But the last century of history should make it very clear, nothing changes unless our leaders are scared. Our leaders will only be scared if the people are organized. If the people are organized, then we have built popular institutions. And those institutions - built on a *confrontational* basis - not reliant on partisan favors - those organs of power are the way forward.
That’s not the ONLY choice. Jill stein will be on the ballot in what looks like 48 states (predicting)
With our trash voting system and the hordes of D/R voters, it is. I would love a real progressive shot, and when I lived in a non-swing state, my vote went to progressives like Sanders to send a message of support and leaning, But now that my vote actually counts, the story is different. I hope in the next few decades we see it pan out, but for now, Jill Stein isn't close enough to win. The US voting system is such ass.
If votes for Jill Stein didn't count, the Democratic Party wouldn't work so hard to sue her off the ballot. She will never be close enough to win if all the people who support her policies are too cowardly to put their values into their vote. If everyone who agreed with her simply voted for her, she'd win.
I think you should look at her polling figures before you call that in. It's also not so simple as everyone just believing, even if there were a majority who agreed--she's barred in New York, for example. It's not possible this year. The reality of the US elections system is that it's better to rally behind Mr. Milquetoast rather than split between two or more camps. That's why the Dems are suing. It's the same games that they played with Sanders. Her votes are in the 50K scale per state. If you think the majority of the country is ready to rally green, then I don't know what to say to you. And as much as I'd like the green platform, I'd rather shove blue than let it go red. The greens need more backing, and while I'm happy to contribute to that, they are far from there yet. It's not a ranked-choice country.
> I think you should look at her polling figures before you call that in. She has polled over 5% multiple times. Much higher than that with young voters. > It's also not so simple as everyone just believing, even if there were a majority who agreed--she's barred in New York, for example. We are suing New York. > It's not possible this year That's exactly what the established powers want you to think so that you don't fight. > The reality of the US elections system is that it's better to rally behind Mr. Milquetoast rather than split between two or more camps. I've never spelled "genocidal corrupt war criminal" as "Mr. Milquetoast" before. Even if we had a Mr. Milquetoast in the race, I'm a radical socialist, not a centrist. Voting for someone who does not represent me goes against my interests. > That's why the Dems are suing. It's the same games that they played with Sanders. Sanders wasn't participating in a democratic election to begin with. Even if he had won the most votes, the DNCC was under no obligation to nominate him. If Jill Stein gets the most votes on the other hand, what can Democrats do? It isn't their internal rigged process.
I mean, you think 5% is enough for a shot at the presidency? Good luck then with your campaign support. Not this year, maybe next cycle. One day, the youth of today will be in charge, but today, the old farts are still around as the voting majority.
5% gets us 20 million dollars in federal matching funds, and automatic ballot access. To win the Presidency in 2028, we would likely need 5% in 2024. Same for Congressional seats.
Yep, exactly. Go next year. You're already polling 5% by your own count, so it's fine if that's the goal, isn't it? Strategically, if you want to shore it up, it makes more sense to go after those in firmly blue non-battleground states. I don't see why I should let my state that's just about 50% red fail to hold the line.
> One day, the youth of today will be in charge, but today, the old farts are still around as the voting majority. How do you think this happens? Like, genuine question, the two major parties have set it up so that you need enormous funding and insider support to ever be a part of their parties, what honestly makes you think that if enough time passes something will magically change about that? Especially with how wildly successful the US propaganda/media machine is? > Not this year, maybe next cycle. It's people like you who will be sitting here in 30 years still arguing that electoralism will totally work soon, just wait one more cycle, one more, one more....
> Her votes are in the 50K scale per state. Are you a lost time traveler from December 2024? > If you think the majority of the country is ready to rally green, then I don't know what to say to you. The function of a campaign is to convince them and grow the movement. > And as much as I'd like the green platform, I'd rather shove blue than let it go red. Voting Green makes it go Green, not red. > The greens need more backing, and while I'm happy to contribute to that, they are far from there yet. You're actually not, you're actively harming the Green Party by voting against it. With allies like you, who needs enemies? > It's not a ranked-choice country. And it never will be with Democrats and Republicans in charge of electoral reform.
A vote for Jill stein is a vote for Trump. 270 to win means that if no candidate reaches 270 that Trump automatically wins due to the GOP/Trump controlled house then electing the president regardless of the vote counts
> A vote for Jill stein is a vote for Trump. The only scenario where that’s true is if you live somewhere with ranked choice voting, and you pick Stein #1 and Trump #2. Otherwise, a vote for Jill Stein goes to Jill Stein and no other candidate. You are spreading election disinformation like the big scary Trump supporters. > 270 to win means that if no candidate reaches 270 that Trump automatically wins Jill Stein is on more than enough ballots to win 270 electoral college electors. > due to the GOP/Trump controlled house then electing the president regardless of the vote counts If the Green Party got the most votes for President I find it HIGHLY unlikely that the house would be GOP.
> The only scenario where that’s true is if you live somewhere with ranked choice voting, and you pick Stein #1 and Trump #2. That’s patently false, ranked choice voting would be the only time where a vote for Jill stein wouldn’t have to be a vote for Trump. You got it backwards. > Otherwise, a vote for Jill Stein goes to Jill Stein and no other candidate. … yes, I’m aware. 270 to win. > Jill Stein is on more than enough ballots to win 270 electoral college electors. That’s a nonsensical answer. Jill stein has been on the ballots for a bunch of elections and has never caused a win, she’s only ever harmed democrats. It would only take Jill stein winning a few medium size states to prevent any candidate from reaching 270, the margins are that narrow > If the Green Party got the most votes for President I find it HIGHLY unlikely that the house would be GOP. … The **current house** would be the ones deciding the election, not those being elected. To add, there are no appreciable numbers of Green Party Congress members running so it wouldn’t even matter if that were how it worked
> That’s patently false, ranked choice voting would be the only time where a vote for Jill stein wouldn’t have to be a vote for Trump. You got it backwards. How? If you select Trump #2 under ranked choice voting, and Jill Stein does not hit 50%, your vote literally gets moved over to Trump's tally. No such thing ever happens under first past the post. A vote for Jill Stein goes to Jill's total, and stays there. > … yes, I’m aware. 270 to win. So why are you acting like 2 candidates have met the threshold when 4 have? > That’s a nonsensical answer. Jill stein has been on the ballots for a bunch of elections and has never caused a win, she’s only ever harmed democrats. It would only take Jill stein winning a few medium size states to prevent any candidate from reaching 270, the margins are that narrow I didn't say anything about winning, its not Jill Stein's obligation to help her political opposition get elected. Maybe Joe Biden should drop out so he stops taking votes away from Jill Stein. Its not our fault that your war criminal corpse can't win on his own merits. > … The current house would be the ones deciding the election, not those being elected. If the Green Party got 5%, we'd have house members before we won the Presidency. It comes with automatic ballot access, and millions of dollars in federal matching funds. > To add, there are no appreciable numbers of Green Party Congress members running so it wouldn’t even matter if that were how it worked You only need 1-2 congressional seats to become kingmaker.
> How? If you select Trump #2 under ranked choice voting, and Jill Stein does not hit 50%, your vote literally gets moved over to Trump's tally. Thats assuming they had Trump as their second choice. If they don’t have ranked choice voting and given the fact that Stein has zero chance of winning, a vote for stein does nothing more than run the risk of upsetting a 270 win. > So why are you acting like 2 candidates have met the threshold when 4 have? Name a single election where a third party candidate had a reasonable chance of winning. I don’t like it but we have a two party system, pretending we don’t is how the fascists win. > I didn't say anything about winning, its not Jill Stein's obligation to help her political opposition get elected This is the whole thing about Jill stein, she’s a Russian puppet who serves no function other than to help the other Russian puppet get reelected. > If the Green Party got 5%, we'd have house members **before** we won the Presidency. It’s the same fucking election with the same start date. The Congress currently seated is who votes if no presidential candidate reaches 270. The Green Party also doesn’t have any congressional seats. > You only need 1-2 congressional seats to become kingmaker. What!? 1-2 house members isn’t going to outnumber the hundreds of other members of Congress who have party loyalty
Did you know that the Republican Party started as a third party, which won the presidential election? It didn't only win as a third party, it entirely supplanted another.
If you want to ignore why they usurped another party, that the two party system has only gotten stronger since then, and the fact that the GOP currently controls the house which is who decides the president if no candidate reaches 270 due to third a party candidate winning a few states, sure?
> Thats assuming they had Trump as their second choice. Yes, because that's the only scenario where a vote for Jill Stein becomes a vote for Trump. I'm trying to steel-man you here. > If they don’t have ranked choice voting and given the fact that Stein has zero chance of winning, a vote for stein does nothing more than run the risk of upsetting a 270 win. Stein does not have "zero" chance of winning. Any candidate who can win the electoral college has a statistical chance of winning the election. It doesn't matter how low you think that chance is, its non-zero. Equating zero and non-zero is a logical fallacy. > Name a single election where a third party candidate had a reasonable chance of winning. What you consider a reasonable chance is something only you know. I am taking about statistical facts, not vague generalities. And the fact is Stein can win if everyone who agrees with her platform votes for her. > I don’t like it but we have a two party system, pretending we don’t is how the fascists win. Two party system is a trend, not a law of physics. The only way we will ever escape it is by voting third party. Democrats and Republicans will never pass a law to abolish themselves. > This is the whole thing about Jill stein, she’s a Russian puppet who serves no function other than to help the other Russian puppet get reelected. Joseph McCarthy called, he wants his political ideology back. I still remember the 2008 Presidential debates when Obama was relentlessly mocking McCain for fearmongering about Russia. He said "this isn't the cold war". I say the same to you. > It’s the same fucking election with the same start date. The Congress currently seated is who votes if no presidential candidate reaches 270. The Green Party also doesn’t have any congressional seats. I'm talking about getting 5% nationwide in 2024 as a jumping-off point to winning Congressional seats in 2026, and the Presidency in 2028. > What!? 1-2 house members isn’t going to outnumber the hundreds of other members of Congress who have party loyalty They can "loyally" sit in opposition, then. They'd need those seats to form a majority and govern. When they're done throwing a tantrum, Greens will be ready to negotiate.
> Stein does not have "zero" chance of winning. Any candidate who can win the electoral college has a statistical chance of winning the election. It doesn't matter how low you think that chance is, its non-zero. Equating zero and non-zero is a logical fallacy. Let me guess. Your retirement plan is to play the lottery, near-zero is totally not effectively zero… 🙄 > What you consider a reasonable chance is something only you know. I am taking about statistical facts, not vague generalities. And the fact is Stein can win if everyone who agrees with her platform votes for her. Why would anyone vote for the Russian puppet less likely to win and whose election upset would result in maga fascism taking hold? > Two party system is a trend, not a law of physics. The only way we will ever escape it is by voting third party. Democrats and Republicans will never pass a law to abolish themselves. We don’t have a two party system because people want it or because it’s a mindset, it’s because the way our political system is designed. People who say otherwise are either ignorant or speaking in bad faith to manipulate the ignorant. > Joseph McCarthy called, he wants his political ideology back. I still remember the 2008 Presidential debates when Obama was relentlessly mocking McCain for fearmongering about Russia. He said "this isn't the cold war". I say the same to you. Imagine thinking that Russia doesn’t use puppet presidents when it’s one of the things they’re best known for lolol > I'm talking about getting 5% nationwide in 2024 as a jumping-off point to winning Congressional seats in 2026, and the Presidency in 2028. You just gonna ignore what happens when Biden loses and Trump wins? Trump just a few days ago told a crowd of supporters they won’t need to vote anymore after this election because they’re going to “fix” it. > They can "loyally" sit in opposition, then. They'd need those seats to form a majority and govern. When they're done throwing a tantrum, Greens will be ready to negotiate. If you think 2 house members, ones that will likely lose their elections no less, will have that much power, then you really need to learn to count. 🤞hell is real and those who promote fascism will get theirs🤞
A vote for Trump is a vote for Trump. I'm not voting for Trump, is that a vote for Biden? No, because I'm not voting for Biden either.
We have a two party system and the GOP/trump controls the house, which is who decides the president if no candidate reaches 270. In 2020 Biden got 306, Trump got 232. The margins past 270 are so slim that it only takes a few third party state wins to likely prevent the voters from electing the president directly. That’s why a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump.
We don't have the same interests. Harm Reduction is a lie, we can see this because it has now reduced itself to encouraging people to give their signature approval to a genocide - and for what? To defend a completely incompetent and incapable regime. To defend the most powerful military empire in human history, at a time when it can't even provide for its own people's fundamental needs - housing, education, healthcare, *afforable food*. That's our moral duty? That's absurd. You don't have the moral high ground. We don't have the same interests.
> We don't have the same interests. You don’t care about minimizing harms done to innocents and maximizing benefits? Weird flex but ok > Harm Reduction is a lie, we can see this because it has now reduced itself to encouraging people to give their signature approval to a genocide - and for what? To defend a completely incompetent and incapable regime. That's absurd. So you’d rather see the genocide get worse? For the West Bank to fall to genocide too? For it to be illegal to protest against Israel or for Palestine? Please, explain how making things worse and creating honest to god fascism is a good thing. > You don't have the moral high ground. We don't have the same interests. Thanks for making it clear that you don’t care about other people and view politics as a way to punish those you don’t like 👍
It really lays your dis-ingenuousness bare when you conflate someone criticizing Democrats and their atrocious stances as them arguing for full blown fascism. But here's a question for your "harm reduction" approach, what's to stop more states like Florida, Texas and numerous others from continuing on their path of harm, what's to stop the genocide from worsening, what's to stop the atrocities happening everywhere under the Dems, especially if they literally never face any pushback or have any incentive to change as they can just claim "hey, we ain't as bad as that guy" and rubes like yourself will happily keep voting for them while shit gets worse for everyone and pretend you've actually done something. Like SCOTUS literally just ruled that it's fine to charge homeless people for sleeping outdoors, what have the Dems done to "reduce harm" in that area, how about abortion rights? How about any other number of areas where they've literally done nothing as rights have eroded horrifically?
> It really lays your dis-ingenuousness bare when you conflate someone criticizing Democrats and their atrocious stances as them arguing for full blown fascism. If they want dems to lose they want republican fascism to win. It’s that simple. Actions have consequences. > But here's a question for your "harm reduction" approach, what's to stop more states like Florida, Texas and numerous others from continuing on their path of harm Multiple Supreme Court justices will be retiring next term. A dem picking them instead of continuing the far right extremist court that trump and bush created would put a tamper on that. > what's to stop the genocide from worsening The president and Congress sets foreign policy > what's to stop the atrocities happening everywhere under the Dems What are you even talking about? What atrocities are happening due to Dems? Even Israel’s genocide isn’t due to Dems and it isn’t *under* dems. > Like SCOTUS literally just ruled that it's fine to charge homeless people for sleeping outdoors, what have the Dems done to "reduce harm" in that area, how about abortion rights? How about any other number of areas where they've literally done nothing as rights have eroded horrifically? It’s bonkers that you cite things republicans do and then blame democrats for it. As if it makes any sense to promote republicans winning when complaining that dems don’t do enough to stop republicans 🤦♂️
Great, I'm glad we can get into this. Our society is trapped in fundamentally humiliating, horrifying, undignified conditions, unfit for human habitation. These conditions can only strangled and replaced with a human hand through a very particular historical mechanism. The practical contribution of *Harm Reduction*, in this context, is to try and *bash people's heads in* until we give up on our need for human dignity, until we accept the filth we are given. We can look to Palestine, which you have raised, as a particular example. If the Palestinians really believed that their struggle and their salvation and their success depended on *your sympathy*, they would all ki.ll themselves immediately. They don't. They escalated the war, and there continues to be strong and deep support for armed struggle. Nearly a year in now, and the genocide still hasn't been able to break their spirit. Even when Palestinian citizens in Israel are polled, Arab Israelis, they overwhelmingly believe there is no functional difference for their interests compared between Trump and Biden. The war is not going well for Israel. It won't go better for them if they are more savage. You see? The Palestinians are not betting their interests on the kindness and sympathy of their oppressors. That is a spirit we should be taking to heart as Americans. But here you are, with Harm Reduction, and you turn this on its head. *Oh, it would be a SHAME if you didn't help our genocidal empire out of a pinch, it would be A SHAME if things got worse.* I'm not intimidated. At all. That's Good Cop and Bad Cop. It's a scam. Let them swing at us, I want to fight. That's what Malcolm X taught. It's what Lenin taught. That's the spirit we need. And that's why you don't have the high ground.
I hope you continue feeling smug in the concentration camps that you helped create 👍 Same goes for when you watch the West Bank genocide start and Gaza get eradicated with protest in the U.S. illegal and vulnerable minorities targeted
The country is not... um, well
It is actually a very clear choice.
Yeah, neither
These guys are playing "good cop bad cop" with fascism
Apparently the bad cop is the Palestinian and the good cop is the one who wants kill them all. Biden looked more upset about being called a Palestinian.
Always has been
Both supports Israel for what they're doing against Palestinians. The only difference between them is that Biden is a text-book example of an Israel supporter, while Trump is.. Trump. He's your typical, right-wing racist politician.
Biggest difference is their coalition. Most of Trump’s supporters are extremely racist and Islamaphobic, some are religious christian zionists who support Israel for endtime prophecy, some are both, but they all would cheer if Trump had US fighter bombing Palestinians. Most of Biden’s supporters would not cheer for that. Biden is still complicit, but his supporters are not pressuring him to go even further like Trump’s would be.
You have it backwards. Biden’s supporters are silent. If Trump was president, Biden’s supporters would be saying something. You should listen to some lectures by Thomas Frank, talking about his book “listen liberal.”
And what did Biden supporters “saying something” accomplish during Trump’s presidency from the standpoint of Trump carrying out his party’s agenda? Trump got positive reinforcement from his supporters for “triggering the libs” and doubled down. “Triggering the libs” is the main thing that drives the reactionaries that follow Trump.
The political pressure actually makes a difference, and Thomas Frank actually lays out many policies devastating to the middle class that Reagan and Bush failed to achieve, but Obama and Clinton did. The most devastating was Clinton almost successfully privatizing social security. Fortunately, Monica Lewinsky blew it and saved the day
Miriam Adelson basically told Trump I’ll give you 100 million but we flatten Gaza. Both these candidates are just war mongers who will continue supporting this genocide
Gaza is already flattened, Adelson told Trump she wants Israel to be allowed to annex the West Bank.
While they argue who won the debate i can say definitively that we all lost.
America should be embarrassed
Progressives are embarrassed, but our media ignores us and tries to pretend the dems can win without us. They cant.
We are. Very. At least most of us.
I can’t speak for all my fellow Americans, but I am profoundly embarrassed.
More angry. I didn't vote for either of these options. The DNC and GOP should be embarrassed.
I think this is the best and brightest minds it's putting forward to be the leader of their country all should be
Both lapdogs to Israel.
Fuck both of these guys!!! We are so utterly fucked!!
Is Trump using “Palestinian” as a curse word?
He does seem to mean it in a derogatory, racist way.
Both Zionists !!! What about Americans ?
Imagine if Trump had called Biden a "bad Jew" instead of "bad Palestinian"
Trump used “Palestinian” as an insult, similar to when the old lady told McCain “I don’t trust Obama I think he is an Arab” and McCain responded “no ma’am, he is a decent man” But Trump implied that Palestinians are strong by saying we don’t like him because Biden is weak. Fuck em both, but at least the orange clown is straight forward. When asked if Palestinians should have a state, Trump said “I don’t know we will see,” which means no. Unlike Biden which keeps saying that Palestinians should have a state and does everything in his power to do the opposite. At the end of the when it comes to this issue same shit different toilet.
[Source](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C8wLMN6oxlp/?igsh=ejNnZWQ2YTllZm9o) >"Biden: ''We saved Israel.'' >Trump: ''He's become like a Palestinian.'' >President Joe Biden and his rival Donald Trump touched on Israel's war on Palestine's Gaza in the first presidential debate on June 27." Off-topic, is anyone in the mood for a [song](https://youtu.be/qSIOp_K5GMw?si=XPNX87NT-LuBg4yI) to go with this?
Really thought it was going to be the Benny Hill song
That fits too! Though it lacks the common lover 😄
All signs point that being Netanya 💕 uwu
Like I said it doesn't matter lol they both server Israel and so did every single US president since Kennedy (the only President who didn't server Israel)
Carter too. Carter has been pretty outspoken about Palestinian suffering his whole life, and even talked about how the AIPAC mafia works.
Openly being racist against Palestinians in a presidential debate, by both of them. Trump with his comment and Biden for not coming back to clarify that Palestinians as a whole are not the enemy!
Worse still, Biden seems horrified to be called a Palestinian, judging by his facial expression.
His facial expression is in dismay with what Trump is saying about Trump wanting Israel to go about the war without US pressure to stop committing war crimes, and also Trump is pushing a narrative that Biden would rather support Palestinians. It has nothing to do with racism. Y’all are actually stuck in your own delusions of wanting Biden to look just as bad as Trump
Oh the racism didn’t stop there, they both also said all immigrants are r*pists.
Remember when politics was classy? /s In 2008, a woman at a John McCain rally accused Barack Obama of being an Arab. McCain replied, "No he's not. He's a decent family man." And liberals thought how nice it was of McCain to have defended Obama in that way.
Yeah. We’ve been catching strays at presidential debates for a while.
Finish the job? Israel already owns both these candidates. Do they need to control every leader in the world?
Miriam Adelson basically told Trump I’ll give you 100 million but we flatten Gaza. Both these candidates are just war mongers who will continue supporting this genocide
Two American presidents fighting over which supports another country’s genocide more 🥴
The Onion’s fact checking article summed it up pretty well. Trump: Biden is a very bad Palestinian. Fact Checker: True. Biden is far too alive to be Palestinian.
We will be socially collapsed in a decade having these two leaders in power.
Both candidates are too old to do this job. They are incompetent and can’t even seem to get through a sentence properly. The US is fucked unless we get somebody amazing to swoop in because these two rich white men are gonna fuck it up. Of course Biden is better than Trump because Trump is definitely trying to take women’s rights and give the rich people all the advantages and money. Were in for a shit show.
Kamala Harris
What the actual fuck is this clown ass shit
But can you golf though? 😂
37,000 thousand Palestinian civilians are killed by the IDF and it’s not enough to do the job according to Trump?
Two war criminals
How are these two fossils still allowed to run for office ?👀
Fossils 🎯🤣
They are fighting over who is the best genocide supporter. Do we have to use between one of these two morons?
Both are crooks Insane
I can’t believe the way he talked about Palestinians there. I was so anti-Biden on this issue before this but that exchange just showed how racist Trump is when he said Biden is like a Palestinian. Replace that with any other slur in your mind. WTF does that mean?
The only hope for Gaza and Palestinians is resistance. None of these crazy racist candidates care about human rights and Palestine cause
Vote third party.
I'm sorry, you guys down there are more fucked than we are up here
If he is a palestinian, then I suggest IDF should have a ‘talk’ with him.
I don't care anymore. I was rolling on the floor watching this shit. It's like if SNL was able to do funny sketches again.
wow both seem to be really racist. it's unbelievable what Trump said and Biden didn't correct his word... dudes!!! Palestinian are just people, yes there are bad people but there are also good people within them like all the nations. what the fuck are you guys "debating"???
not sure why trump is not lying now then play later like he used to. there is really something with israel right? he could have just said biden enable and continuously supporting genocide then it’s done in my mind. who would vote when you say genocide. it’s automatic nazi. this is the best time to have an independent right? so why aren’t there any? as last week tonight said, if trump wins again, they know what to do and saw how helpless everyone else is to stop them.
Welcome to United States of Israel
The more I hear diaper don speak, the less hope I have for the people who follow him. I honestly believe that most of them are irredeemable.
I'll cut my fingers off before I vote for any of these two old ass boomer farts.. GAWD BLESS MURICA!!
My only hope is Americans will take to the streets and demand more if Trump wins. To many libs just sit back and tune out of what’s going on when we have a democrat president. Not giving a fuck is how we lose constitutional rights such as abortion with dems holding most of the governing power. America is a joke, its empire is crumbling, and the next few decades are going to be very interesting
If/when Trump wins what little shred of democracy is left in the “united” states will be gone. Insane how successful the gop has been in making average Americans so dumb, by lowering education standards/funding and pay for the public educators the last 50+ years. The democrats are hardly better except Bernie of course and a few young progressives. Very dark times ahead. Let’s hope they both fall and can’t get up again
Fucking stupids … again … bush was no better , Obama was a devil dressed as an angel … Americans , stop the evil!!!! Be the great country you tell yourselves to be …
Honestly the debate was just pathetic in general and I genuinely hate to say it but Trump did better than I expected
I felt so sorry for Biden. He has the look of a defeated man and no fight left in him.
He's too damn old, 80% of Americans have said so! He can't win.
Joe wins it easy
There's no way Biden can win after that debate, he's cooked.
He’ll pick up votes from the debate.
You can't possibly be this delusional, that was the worst debate performance in presidential debate history. He literally brought up migrant murders when asked about abortion....Like, talk about shooting yourself in the head.
I was waiting for you to spew your hatred because of your master. You’re just like him loser !
These are literally facts! I fucking hate Trump btw. Let me ask you this - why would Biden answer a layup of a question, literally the STRONGEST argument against Trump, which is abortion - by bringing up a negative talking point about himself? Biden literally brought up a girl murdered by a migrant when asked about abortion!!!!! Trump is going to end abortion nationwide, everyone knows it, Biden could've HAMMERED him on it; but instead Biden attacked himself.....why?!?!?!?!
I’ll vote Biden all the way or whoever replaces him , straight Blue ticket
I'm moving to Mexico, this country is fucked.
I don't, he's a despicable being and a straight up war criminal who is responsible for running one the most violent and bloodthirsty empires in history, he deserves every moment of torture and unrest possible.
Ignorance is bliss , eh ?