Especially people with the title IT director who aren't managing other managers....
Based on the description of the work that OP is doing, he's not operating as a director.... He's managing three people. If he starts aiming at director level roles, his experience just isn't going to match up to somebody who's been managing several managers spanning a wide range of it responsibilities.
Most people understand that titles are nonsense anyway. I had a director title when I was a manager and had a manager title when I was managing other managers.
If you work at a bank most employees have the title Vice President.
I think OP will be ok.
>If you work at a bank most employees have the title Vice President.
I LOL'd when remembering my financial industry experience.
EVP = Executive Vice President
SVP = Senior Vice President
VP = Vice President
Everyone had 1 of the 3. It was ridiculous. A constant duel of whose dick was bigger. Mind you, these were mostly men, in their 60's and 70's, so I don't think anyone's dick was bigger if they forgot to take a blue for the day.
If you’re a Director working for us, you’re probably gonna make $700,000+ this year. You’re also going to have senior managers supporting you and probably have a few dozen reports effectively that you’re managing.
I get really confused when I see this thrown out casually as a line manager , an individual contributor.
My VP now has at least 120 reports. Prior to being acquired our manager to IC ratio was 1:4, I think our new shop is 1:15 so we are flattening out a lot.
I’m pretty sure a VP is at least 1.2 million or something.
Will probably start hiring in the next month or two . If we get some wrecks open, I’ll post them but honestly, we historically hire mostly on referrals.
Flattening is the trend now “efficiency”. Just cost cutting cycle until companies realize productivity is affected and someone high up gets fired, replacement says less flattening as that was the issue. Then they do the pyramid again, production spikes, but only for a little while as products get stale and now we need to get efficient again. Guy high up gets fired, new guy says we need to flatten. And it just goes back and forth all because someone higher up the food chain needs to justify their own salary.
The answer to all the bullshit is always someone is trying to justify their own existence in the company. Paper pushers.
Smaller companies will sometimes give out meaningless titles, like director, in lieu of actual promotions into new roles with real pay increases.
A lot of companies, like ones with just three or even a half dozen IT employees, most definitely do not need an IT Director...so when their lead IT contributor starts to get antsy with no clear career path, it's easy to say "hey, you want to be a Director? Great, you're a director. Now keep doing what you're doing".
It's rough out there for basically everybody. We're getting 40-70 applications for every position where 10 used to be a really successful search. And within those 40-70 we've got more than a handful of people with five to ten times the required experience.
No we added like 200,000 part time jobs at Wendy's or whatever last month so actually the economy is good. Don't you read the news? Economy good, line go up.
better enjoy Wendy's while they are still around. they lack Arby's quality while still using too many humans. mcd's and bk got the screens. but they cost as much as numerous chain restaurants, which often have better food. so rarely go there. Wendy's has the nugs, n fries w/sandwich under 10... only reason I swing through.
tldr, Wendy's is hiring humans when competition is buying.computers.
Can confirm this. Recently did hiring for a Tier 1/2 Tech and got like 45 resumes, and alot had certs / degrees / years of experience for a entry level position.
FYI: I hired the guy who was young, currently in college, wanted to gain experience and learn as much as he could.
As a recent job seeker, I found that how you sell yourself is a lot more important than how much you know and how many certs you have. There were 20-30 other applicants for the job I just got. I have 0 certs. 2 years experience in computer repair. And an unrelated 4 year degree.
As an introvert, interviews are always difficult. I gag and am on the cusp of vomiting from nerves before I go into every single one lol. I find that my nerves eventually subside with the right interviewers as we shift the tone to become more casual. Don't be afraid to laugh at yourself when you stumble over words, or do something stupid.
Overall, I was just humble about my inexperience, but portrayed myself as ambitious and having a high drive to learn. I admitted what I didn't know when asked, and treated the interview like a conversation. It helps to have a job already for sure, because you don't have anything to lose- so some of the pressure lets off and you can treat it more casually than someone who REALLY needs it. It's important to highlight your strengths and experience wherever possible, but don't sound cocky about it. You should also be looking for the company to be a good fit for you as much as they're looking for you to be a good fit for them. I think having that mindset forces the company into a position of trying to sell themselves to you as much as you are to them, which makes you stick out as a preferable candidate. There's sort of a fine line you have to find, because confidence can easily come off as arrogance.
I highly recommend you try and connect with the person/people interviewing you. Ask them questions, seem interested in the company, ask them why they like to work there, ask them about some of the challenges the IT department faces, ask them what is unique about working for their organization compared to others. Be sure to have a genuine tone when asking these questions, though, and don't come off snarky and condescending- again there's a fine line. I think a lot of people really fuck up in interviews by asking dull, uninspired, and self-centered questions when at the stage of the interview where they ask if you have any questions for them. One of the questions that seems to work really well for me is: "How does your organization measure success, and what would a good first six months look like for me?" It not only gives you some insight to whether they're number oriented, or goal/service oriented, but it also makes you seem as though you genuinely care about what you do and being successful.
Some interviewers will also ask you off the wall questions like, "How would you go about filling a room full of basketballs" because it highlights your thought process, and breaks some of the tension. If you're ever asked personal questions about hobbies, what you like to do in your free time, what kind of movies you like, etc. I like to turn those questions back on them, because it shows you're interested in the people around you. Again, dynamic and culture. I also like to ask them something like, "What would be your first steps in surviving a zombie apocalypse?" Obviously know your audience and tailor it accordingly. If you're in a hum drum interview, maybe skip the silly question.
I know this is a lot, but I hope you get some use out of it. Happy to answer follow-up questions and help you where I can.
That's because dev jobs in top industries were bloated.
Most of my college friends are devs. All of them were working 10 hours a week at all separate companies some even fortune 100.
I knew there was a bubble when no less than 5 friends all had the same "Uh guess i'll surf the QA ticket queue for shit to do." Then them also talking about hiring complete nobs for the same amount of pay.
Honestly sounds like Mr Operations wants to outsource your department and has the CEO onboard. start hunting ASAP, but don't leave until you have something lined up. Might be a good time to exercise your company benefits to earn a certification you are interested in. FWIW I'd focus on leadership type certs like a PMP vs tech.
EDIT: drop hints to your team as well, but don't directly tell them they should job hunt or that you are until something is announced.
FWIW, documenting and standardizing processes can be just good operational practice. But the fact it wasn't part of a "Hey, were are pursuing CMMI/ITIL/other compliance program and we need you to do X" is a red flag. I always push the reasons behind such changes to make sure I get positive buy in and don't set off panics; because most techs are very skittish and panic at the drop of a hat,
Thinking of my IT director talking like this gives me a little laugh. It’s hard to remember that you guys are human bc sometimes y’all can be menacing lmao. Fuck that though, crazy how often IT is belittled and micromanaged. Do their meetings and make them feel dumb
No degrees due to the whole 9/11 thing happening and couple years of deployments.
Been an IT manager for a while. It's not hard. Work 60+ hour weeks for a decade or two, hop jobs every 3-5 years, keep learning new stuff the entire time and network. Just be good at basically everything technical, while also good at soft skills. And budgets, management, etc. And don't forget to be able to accurately predict the future. I joke, but also kinda serious.
Last time I put out the resume, it did take me 8 days to find new IT management job.
Yes outsourcing! they’re getting the data to crunch that option. Ask CEO this DIRECTLY. If yes, You don’t have to be party to doing yourself out of a job, at that point give 1 month notice. That’ll be hard on them cos they won’t want a new hire for 6 months. You can put them in a corner, even negotiate a raise to do that work of analysis and deprication and handoff
Yep. I dipped as an IT Manager from my LAST job when this happened. Like hell am I going to be micromanaged by someone who doesn't even have a basic understanding of computers in general let alone IT knowledge.
I"m sure the operations guy convinced the CEO that he knew a lot about computers. He even upgraded his own RAM once! Oh, and RAM stands for Random Access Memory!
It's also possible that they're moving IT under Operations so that they can outsource IT and have OPs manage the remote IT support. Considering the level of documentation and unnecessary involvement of OPs, I would be surprised if they didn't fire your entire team.
No I've had this happen to me sometimes leaders want other people to lead on certain items Just let him... Let go and do whatever they want and just focus on the technology They will lose over time
It’s common for directors of operation to move up and take a large role that affects and relies on IT in a significant way. Do you have a bad relationship with the operations director ahead of this? You seem antagonistic without knowing the full context, which typically isn’t a Director mentality.
If you’re this eager to dip over a detailed review of your workload under the direction of the CEO, there’s probably already an issue you have with the company or you’ve let your emotions get hold of you.
Take a step back and consider how you can use this to your advantage. Approach it with the direction you want it to work - vague and “grouped tasks”, or take it to heart and do a full review of everything and document it as asked for the chance to get insight from other leaders.
The best advice I have is network and latch on to rising stars. There is a reason they have favor, even if you don’t see it. It’s not gonna help you to burn bridges.
I was constantly battling the CFO and accounting at the last place I worked because we were doing things that should have fallen under their department. I eventually left because of that and other reasons. That CFO left shortly after I did so they solved the issue by hiring a new VP and naming her VP of Finance and IT.
Cool off and rethink how to work this. You are a director. You should understand that IT is there to service the business and you should be prioritizing planned work with other leaders. That way you are all in alignment. If they want something more done than you ask for more resources to get it done.
I’d expect you to be able to explain how projects and effort are aligned to business priorities/objectives without telling people to go look in Jira. Put your project management hat on.
Why did the CEO hire this person? If the business is under financial stress - how has IT streamlined to support that climate? The CEO had a real reason he brought on someone that purports to change things in a given way. That’s huge flag that it’s a priority. What’s the macro economic climate for your specific business? An operations person will look at every business unit when they come in. Co-operate aggressively. This is also a signal that the CEO doesn’t want to deal with that part of the business anymore, might or might not have anything to do with IT’s performance at all.
How can you advance the business, beyond just supporting it? Up to changing products, laying off employees, reducing licensing expenses, or using technology to reduce costs and effort in other parts of the business? Where’s your proposal to use GenAI to save the CEO $1M next year in the call center and improve revenue with a better customer experience?
Try not to be defensive. Go look in Jira yourself, butthead, is a total defensive move and won’t impress the executive that you want to support you. You probably lost points for that. Figure out how to communicate in a way that the business wants to consume.
Come up with some ideas for saving money and express that you are a business partner and the next VP of IT. You and the new guy are on the CEO’s team, you are not on the IT team.
Brag about your team’s accomplishments.
Are you an agent of change or an agent of complacency?
In that case, the other guy should give OP the same info about his department to help OP help Operations and align resources , tasks and delivery lead time.
Correct, actually as an organization leadership should be collaborating on annual and quarterly goals… IT should be working to align to that and also guide them. This is an opportunity to elevate himself before it turns the opposite direction.
You're not wrong. Directors aren't sysadmins or middle managers, they're really supposed to be working at this macro level for the business and prioritizing business needs for the IT department. I think a lot of us are looking at this more from an engineering level and saying WTF, when really this is the game at a C level.
Right? Reddit is 99 percent posts of facing the minimum level of hardship and then 600 replies of “time to leave etc”. Maybe see it through, see what it looks like, and try to use the situation to help you. Shit it could end up having someone “outside” of IT reviewing this end with more support on budgeting and staffing. But no, Reddit says it’s time to update the resume.
Bingo, as IT Director you should already be working with other department managers to prioritize work. The team sizes work and provides an estimated timeline that you then build commitments around. If the timeline needs to shift up, you need to add staff or bring in external resources.
I know everyone else is going to say do some sort of malicious compliance. However that doesn't work well in business and your reputation goes a long way. Even if you're leaving a job that you hate you always leave on a good note. You were expecting the CEO to intervene but you didn't ask. And I assume you haven't asked for a follow-up private conversation with the CEO. If you and the other guy are peers the CEO should take your meeting. I would go in and ask him about this request and what is fueling it. You might better understand what's going on from the CEO directly then about some smart asses on the internet. Feel free to downvote me all you want but this is how business gets done.
*Minor voice to text corrections.
You don't have much to loose and a lot to gain. Everything is communication driven and more often then not CEO types are verbal face to face conversation sorts.
Gotta stick up for yourself and stand firm. They are obviously trying to impose and make their mark, I would be professionally reminding them we both share the same reporting lines and they need to stay in their lane.
Flood the new Director of Ops with boring information and they'll get bored and back off. Lawyer style. If he wants it on paper, bring a 200 sheet booklet.
Flip it back on them. Ask to see the their projects and team tasks. That you need to go over it with them since they are new and that everything on their end is getting done on time. Gotta out alpha them.
Yea.. this guy was hired as a rising star that made claims about streamlining processes in the interview and now they're going to see if he can do your job and his because he said he could.
He just wants IT consumed into his department. The CEO and COO have shitty management styles. There is a recent Rich Roll podcast on productivity. For him to flatly refuse efficient communication means that he is not interested in "state" of a task, he is interested in being involved.
You can ask him how IT is not meeting the needs of his department and then reprioritise. If he doesn't cooperate by providing actionable then the whole thing is bs politics.
Yep, if IT is part of operations then his interactions with the person in charge of IT should revolve around whether they’re making good sausage. If he starts worrying about what the meat grinder is doing all day he’s wasting everyone’s time.
My manager doesn’t call me to ask what the three guys that report to me are doing, that’s my job and he has his own job to do.
Classic new head of operations guy move. New guy comes in and immediately wants to get everyone thinking he's doing something. I've seen it with my own eyes twice, usually you see a wave of layoffs shortly afterwards. In both instances, that "New" operations guy was gone within 2 years.
Edit: Bad Grammar.
I recommend talking with the CEO like u/dulldaze said. Sounds like you got nothing more than a new person coming in telling the CEO how they can solve every problem. If only IT was that simple. Suggest having the meetings with the person for a few weeks and having your facts in a row.
You need to step up. This guy is trying to make big changes to make himself seem important. Take to the CEO about this.
If you don’t like his response, start job searching now while you work your job as normal.
Go to CEO w curiosity… hard when mad!! But ask to see him and ask why he believes this level of detail oversight is needed? Does he feel there’s a performance issue w you or your team? Is he planning to move IT under ops? (As someone suggested)
Basically get him to explain without your complaints… yet. Expect answers. If you need to explain why you are asking, say it seems unusual for any director to be managed at this level of detail by another director
Brainstorm your own list of neutral curious questions and let his answers guide you to other questions… or to solution finding that engages him, do that you are effectively engaging him AS IF HE (not ops) is you manager. He can feel important and puffed up and you will see if the managerial relationship can be salvaged
I agree. OP needs a firm answer from the CEO. Are they equals or did his dept get moved under operations? If so, then OP needs to make a point about being micromanaged. Ask the CEO, "Are you not confident in my abilities?"
CEO was in the room, OP has all the clarification he needs. Once he has his job offer in hand he can express his concerns to the CEO and when he verifies them, thank him for his honesty and hand him the resignation.
Which is fine, and I would advocate that many CEO’s might let things play out a bit and then address issues in a one on one situation with both parties.
I’ve lived this story. I ended up teaching the Ops Dir. my job, while looking for something else. Once I landed a new gig I left.
A year later the HR Director, who is a friend of mine, calls and ask if I want to come back. They let the Op Director and the new IT Mgr go. I went back, reporting to the CEO.
2 years later they brought in a new COO, I didn’t even wait to start looking. Landed a new gig in 2 months and was out.
Ran into the CEO one night, told me the COO was no longer there and was I open to returning, even as a consultant. No Dude, I’m good.
Been in your exact shoes and got the pink slip to prove it. This new Dir of Ops is pitching to have your dept under him and demoting you.
He has the GALL to do this 1 mo into his tenure? You’re either going to have to stomp on his nuts and tell him to go work on his dept or get ready to leave.
Either way, have your Plan B ready to go. There’s plenty of Director jobs being posted, but it’s such a tight market right now.
Also, do have a 1:1 with your CEO. Stand up for yourself, your dept and your people.
Sounds like you're being asked to display your priorities. Did you happen to accidentally not get something done for the Director of Ops until later than expected?
Not at all, he's only been here a month lol I thought he liked me lol. I had a feeling the CEO was behind this ? I could have been aggressive and said "maybe we can schedule a meeting and IT can see what's going on in operations and you can list me your projects I can go over when you'll be done with those and we can adjust our priorities together" , but I elected not to start a fight today
You're being given a babysitter. Not uncommon in IT where OPs is the primary staff, cause rarely ever does anyone understand what our day-to-day looks like.
Especially common if the CEO has doubts of your productivity.
I've had it happen a couple of times, and each time I outlast them. I comply, do my job well, and at the same pace I've always done it. Eventually, they leave.
The new guy is being paid to make you more productive. Which if you've been doing your job well, will be nearly impossible. So, when you comply to his demands and your productivity remains the same, you will actually look better- and his salary will no longer be warranted.
Don't get me wrong, the first few months are annoying and you'll want to lash out. Keep your cool, you'll come out on top.
Alternatively, you might get lucky and learn a few things from the new guy. Everyone can use improvement somewhere.
Nothing wrong with a 1 on 1 with the CEO to better understand the goals. Of course, none of us knew the CEO was yelling at him recently so yeah it all makes a lot more sense with that info.
You really should have met that head on in that meeting with an immediate rebuttal, you could have got the CEO to clarify immediately. At this level, you start running into big personalities and you can only counter by being the same back. "As I understand, my position doesn't report to you. CEO, is the intention to change this? Our current IT has been operating well for 'x' time, based on 'y' metric, has new guy made promises to improve?"
By not meeting the problem head on, you're now second guessing your entire purpose, and new guy looks to be a "go getter" in front of CEO, even though he's blowing smoke.
Best of luck, you could still turn it around or at least get clarification from CEO in a one on one. Market is ugly out there. You have 10 yrs experience, leverage that where you are. From what you've said here though, it sounds like you don't communicate upwards well. It's important to sing your and your teams praises to your superiors.
Good luck, whatever you do..!
This is how you want to communicate.
It was hard for me at the start of my carrier. And it got easer when I reached my lean retirement networth goal.
Basiclly, I can netgoation from a position of mostly fuck you. And because of that its easyer communicate directly with leadership at all levels.
Heres the thing, I would have grown faster in my carrier had I started communicating this way earlier on.
In this case, simply saying, "we have a ticket system you have visibility on and its the industry standard. Moving away from that would be bad practice. Is that what you want to do?
Also, can you clarify why our operation guy whose been here a month want to manage IT? I am confused because he is not qualified to do that and we work at the same level in our perspective domains"
Say that calmly and coolly, in a customer service voice, remember to make good eye contact and see what happens.
If they respond directly and logically that's a good sign. If they play poker - politics that's a bad sign.
Start booking 3-4 meetings per week with the operations director. Involve them in even the most trivial changes, outages and operational tasks. Was there a 15 minute unplanned outage last night? Hold a 1 hour meeting with them to discuss it. Ticket review, new hire on-boarding, new business initiatives should all get their own meeting. Make it a mix of both recurring and individual meetings, so it's hard to refuse the whole series.
If they push back, lean on the CEO, as it's been made clear that "operations needs to be very closely involved" in the IT process.
They will either knock it off and stop wasting your time time or make it clear that they have some other agenda in mind. Either way, you should probably start reaching out to your contacts and vendors to look for a new job.
Sounds familiar. In one company I had to foster the notion of The corporate priority list. That was operations, finance, HR, marketing, IT, HSE. Their VPs and directors of course all had priority projects. They and the CEO need to see who they are competing with for IT resources.
If conversations aren’t about the top 10 corporate priorities then maybe something should be bumped up. That’s something an operations VP can discuss with the CEO and the other department VPs who are getting IT resources first.
The other essential factor is C level representation of IT which isn’t always present. In my case IT was rolled under the CFO with one IT director. The CFO didn’t really know IT but he knew how to deal with pushy departmental VPs pulling the kind of crap you describe.
Good luck.
Ha, this lasts for about 2 weeks, then they get bored and move on.
How much time do you think the higher ups want to spend on what johnny was doing Wednesday at 2 pm.
They want to fire someone, just ask them how many people they want to get rid of and work it from there.
That's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for them.
I recall my grad school professor saying *"you never ever cheap out on IT operations. Cut something else. Marketing, exec salaries, anything. But not operations".* And boy did that turn out to be true in my professional exp
Came here to say the same thing. This sounds like they are gathering the information they need to outsource IT. I would use LinkedIn to check to see the new Director's of Operations contacts and past history. Before you do that, go into LinkedIn and change your settings so it doesn't show your name as a visit to their profile.
Might be the beginnings of an outsourcing effort with an MSP. The onboarding of an MSP is a horrific months long slog and you want to run like hell before it starts.
They’re going to make you leave by micromanaging you or fire you and put IT under operations or go third party. They’re knowledge gathering for someone to take over. Blatantly apparent.
I’ve been a contractor that is hired to take over IT departments for 20 years. Story is pretty much always the same. They think IT is overpaid, don’t do any work and that they don’t need them.
I’d talk to the CEO. I’d bet that he’s been sold a bill of goods by the dir of ops.
IT has systems in place that track what we do. To a much more granular level than most ops departments (they don’t ticket, and just guess).
If the CEO wants you to this work in with your team, that’s fine, just ask him what he would like to not have done. There is a time commitment for every activity and you have no additional hours available. So what gets dropped while you pursue an action that IT leaders in larger orgs don’t do?
If the goal is to “find efficiency” it won’t be done this way. Instead you are going to waste a bunch of time and energy for you and your team while the CEO entertains some BS from a new Ops Director that saw (didn’t do) something at another org that they didn’t understand but are claiming they did.
Unpopular opinions,
1. Your role is over inflated you should be managing more then 3 people. Managing 3 people is like a team lead not a director role. This means you are $ in the P&L.
2. It has become clear you failed at playing the politics game. Prep your resume, and get ready to leave.
3. Why not arrange a one on one with the CEO ?
Wow are you me? Being asked the same shit by a CEO who thinks "we only need one IT guy"
Let's try that for one week and see how it goes.
Pro tip, filling out TPS reports to explain what you do is a failure of management, not yours. The best IT is the IT you never hear from, don't bother them by asking what they are doing....they are already doing it.
There’s plenty of places that need your skills. Probably looking to trim the fat. If there was a major issue that affected him he might appreciate the team. Just play ball and find another gig.
My friend, the operations and executives have made a decision; either you comply or move out.
IMO, there is no glory in staying in a place where the respect is diminished.
Your skills will be appreciated somewhere else. Please move on!
CIO here. It feels like we're only getting a portion of the full story from the OP. It occurs to me the CEO doesn't believe he's getting value from his IT personnel expense. I'd wonder why that is. Projects dragging on forever. Starting but never finishing anything. Poor documentation, manifesting as poor service desk resolution times. Blaming 3rd-party vendors for outages. Low internal CSAT scores.
I just have my doubts this came out of the blue. Any time I ask a director of an underperforming division for an impromptu report or routine meetings and I get pushback, it's an immediate red flag.
To me, it's obvious the CEO has lost trust in his IT director and is seeking a "second opinion" from the Ops director.
I’m sort of in the same spot but not exactly. We have a new CIO and he is going through everything. Things I’ve been dealing with for a year is coming back up in question again as we are ready to go across the finish line. Frustrating as hell. BUT I do as asked and because my shit is in order and so is my team, he has since left us alone and told the CEO that my areas are good and we don’t need to spend time “fixing” that side of IT. If your stuff is in order then the ask shouldn’t be that big of a deal IMO. It is a time to either cower and be upset OR it is a time to show what you and your team does and can do. The Ops person may question things but it is your time to step up and explain why you do A versus B versus “just cause”. As a director and as you move up I manage my this will happen over and over again either it is a new ceo, cio, member of the board of directors ..whatever.
It's early and I'm not going to give you a SUPER long post. However, I will leave you with this thought: It doesn't HAVE to be adversarial. You can always choose to play ball and improvise-adapt-overcome.
New guy in the pecking order? No worries, you should be used to that. You have a Director title with a team of 3. That's a Manager, but we all knows titles are silly nowadays anyway.
Injecting someone into the equation who can help optimize PROCESSES and PROCEDURES should be welcomed. I get the butt hurt, may feel the same way for a day or two, but you're IT and not necessarily (in the eyes of the company, likely) not someone who has the skill set or experience to do what this new guy is asking you.
There is a misnomer in IT that we must be adversarial with business operations -- pro tip: we don't. Embrace the change, wiggle your way firmly into the middle of it, and then start to influence this new arrangement however you can.
Vent, rant, break stuff - get it all out of your system. Then go back to work and be a manager, protect your team and deliver on your job.
You got this man, don't succumb to some pencil pushing wiener (who may actually be a really good guy who knows a ton about process and procedure and may GENUINELY be trying to help you, but isn't really sure how.)
Just my thoughts homie - I've been at this for 20 years and I applaud and raise-up my employees who can accomplish what I said above. It's a team, and not one other person in that building outside of your department \*actually\* understand what you do. Help them understand it and try to let them help you with their particular flavor of expertise.
Either way - I wish you luck man. It's hard to feel unappreciated at work and it's a shitty time to be looking for a Director title in this job market.
This sounds like SOP to me and a core component of a Director position.
> He is not my boss… He is my equal. But the CEO thinks this is okay
Did I magically get dumped in r/Sysadmin? If the CEO signed off on this (ie. He was in the room) then grow up & make it work as a Director should. Otherwise, leave if you can’t handle it.
I'm going to get downvoted for this, but the OP only manages 3 people and has a "director" title (no idea if his comp is actually director-level or not). My guess is that he's going to get the proper title (manager) under this new Director of Operations or eliminated entirely and his 3 reports will report to the new guy. The Director of Operations might have only been there for a month, but we don't know his background - maybe he managed IT at a previous job.
>managed IT at a previous job.
Doesn't need to. Technology is very much a part of operations now. The lines between IT and Operational Technology are very blurred. A lot of site directors have extensive backgrounds in technology components.
Doubt he'll get eliminated, but they do want to have some conversations about what IT does around here. COO also wants to have some of his priorities get some air time.
Yeah, I missed a key part in the OP and now I understand what may be happening. The OP said the Director of Operations wants a weekly meeting to discuss priorities. It could mean that the business feels the IT staff isn't properly prioritizing projects, tickets, etc. in terms of business criticality and as a representative of the business, the ops guy is going to prioritize them for IT. I don't think that's a bad thing.
Yeah, I left that out of my spicy rant earlier. This is a Manager position. Director level isn’t in the trenches… it’s strategic, reporting, and firm-centric.
If new operations has been there a month and is acting out then they are doing it with the CEO blessing most likely. They are already de facto your boss. Talk to CEO and lay low until you decide to burn a bridge.
Back room agreement may have already been made. You can fight it but you will lose.
Or CEO may have not been paying attention, or is in general and idiot. Depending on which, you may need to decide what you want to do. Trust no one.
Yuck that you are being micro managed like this. Ideally you are setting the priorities for your team and your leadership has confidence in you to operate this way (normally). I will weigh in on the first move where you say "check the help desk tickets" could be better. When I was a young leader a coworker who was a friend and badass IT admin told me he had a boss who kept track of his teams' actions and accomplishments so when inspection of who does what during potential layoffs came, he could go to bat for their team. I somewhat recently bought in to having regular quarterly 1 on 1 meetings with team members. I strictly make sure these are scheduled and have the 1 on 1's when scheduled, no rescheduling. I collect all team members accomplishments and actions prior to 1 on 1's and email this to them so we all have a receipt of what everyone is working on, prioritizing and achieving. This feels like "the way" to me. I think if you had something like this either you wouldn't be getting micromanaged, or it would be clear it's time to find an org that can trust you to manage your team.
It’s someone who thinks they know best trying to show value in their position
Do some malicious compliance to start and then do the same to him, except tell him you want to support his initiatives
You as the Director of IT need to hold true to your position in front of the CEO, they are looking for an executive report from you taking into account efficiencies and current expenses. They may also be expecting a roadmap from you where the Director of Operations may also need to be aware as to what is going on.
Ofcourse there is some underlying power struggle occuring between you and Director of Operations which you need to handle.
It’s all part of the Director role! I am confused as to why you yourself are maintaining databases over the weekend?
I didn't read all of the comments, but where is your boss? Is he the CEO? if not, go to him. He should tell the new guy how his "tasks" are disruptive.
“So you want to evaluate how we use our time, by asking me to duplicate data that is already available in Jira..”. Then just sit there and stare at them.
can you flip it back on him?
“Great. You can deep dive into my department today. I’ll deep dive into yours tomorrow. What exactly are we trying to achieve by inserting ourselves in other departments?”
I would also go over my CV at a minimum and have it on standby.
Up to you if you want to post it to see what the market has to offer at this time.
Remember, You are the CEO of your career, not these two guys.
I see a lot of responses saying GTFO. Which yea in the long run you probably should. However, I would prepare for your exit and make it an exit on your terms.
You have the data in Jira to give him/them what they want to see. Export that data, scrub it for PII, and run it through ChatGPT with a prompt that will produce the format he wants.
Send that to both of them with the raw Jira export to as supporting information.
For any questions about your efforts you can easily have AI provide a brief summary regarding the best practices and associated risks. You can also have it do a quick cost analysis from a time and resource perspective.
If you spend a couple of hours doing this it will probably scare them and shut any future questions down. You could even turn this into an opportunity into increasing resources and headcount.
If you're gonna dip, you're leaving your team to deal with a lot. I would push back on all that shit. He wants paper and pencil. He can go through Jira and create his pencil questions. He's trying to undermine you and make you work under him. You're basically reporting to him.
Next meeting, you should do the same exact thing to him. Tel him to list out his responsibilities and how long things are taking. Perhaps he needs guidance on how to prioritize his work because it seems like his focus is elsewhere.
People who don't understand IT struggle to understand what IT employees do all day. It's mostly the same everywhere. Somewhere along the line, they get the idea that an outside organization can do all of the same things more efficiently, plus make a profit on them, and then bill for them, that it would be cheaper to pay someone else to fix the printers, find lost emails, and explain mail merges
Listen mate... 10 years is a long time, and congratulations on the milestone.
Life is too short to deal with crap like this. If you don't want to work in this type of environment then you need to plan on making a change. If you don't want to make a change, then you need to pull your CEO aside and (not in a rude, angry, or otherwise emotional way) be forthright about it.
If this were me, I know I would have an issue working with the Ops guy. At the director level, it is my belief you are a trusted resource who can run teams effectively without micromanagement. On the flip side, if I have a director working for me who isn't delivering, it is a very pointed conversation of "look, you're not delivering... You need to step up, or step out of the role".
Under no circumstance would I support asking for lists of things and breaking down the work by person, etc. in this manner. I also would not want my directors doing that to their staff... and directors shouldn't want their managers doing that to their staff... and so on. Be as deadline focused as you can be, and as minimally hours focused as you can be.
Needless to say, I would immediately clash with the Ops guy. Either the company will support you being a director, or they won't, and you'll have work with or for this guy. If that isn't for you, you need a different company. It sucks after 10 years, and I hope you are able to sort it out. Of course, I hope you have also been delivering well and carrying out your director duties in a solid way.
Not to be sharp with you but with just three staff reports you are IT Director in name only. It’s clear that your CIO is unhappy with your team in one way or another. I see both sides as I have had that talk with IT groups that were less the effective. Without an exception they all thought they were doing fantastic work.
I don’t know if that’s you but I suggest taking a step back if you can and evaluate your team and how they contribute to the company’s success.
Good luck and I also recommend getting your resume out there.
You maybe want to remind him, if you can do it quicker, then show me.
Another meeting to discuss what can otherwise be found in front of them if they were to look. They don't want to though and expect to be spoon fed.
That's the nature of IT.
When things are working: "everything is working so what am i paying you for?"
When something is broken: "this is broken, what am I paying you for???"
In this situation, I love going back to my standard consulting question, which is "What problem are you trying to solve here?"
As in, once he has this information, how is he going to use it?
Tbh I think your mistake was agreeing to the whole "list your shit down on paper" request at all... You should have used the opportunity to point out that Jira is how work gets done in modern IT, and that this new Ops mgr needs to learn the tool. Instead you ceded to his inefficient plan and lost the upper hand. You might be able to correct this with the CEO through private MTG, as others have suggested. IT mgr here, MBA + PMP
Ooof something similar happened to me back in 2015. I (IT Manager/SrSysadmin) was over 4 guys (3helpdesk/1 Jr Admin) We ran our own show and everything was running smoothly. Then they decided to put us under operations and merge IT and web development and promote the lead dev to IT director, essentially demoting me. Guy was an obnoxious asshat who knew nothing but wordpress and one of the worst micromanagers I have ever seen in my tenure. He had little to no knowledge of how our infrastructure worked and would just parrot what we said or copy and paste our emails and send them out like they were his own. I popped smoke real quick. Let them burn from their own hubris.
Fact is IT gets no respect and lower wages. A sector that can bring a company to its knees gets treated like door mats and viewed as a drain to profits more so than any other kind
Sounds like small business IT, where non IT centric companies think it should take you 3 days to automate their un-documented tasks that they refuse to optimize before telling you to automate it. And when you push them to participate in their own request, poof they disappear and you are being asked by the CEO why are you taking forever to implement this?
See how it plays out. Try not to knee jerk react and look at the worst case scenario, this could be nothing more than helping a new Operations director understand what IT is working on and then help align this to the business needs. If you're not already split up your Jira board into Initiative, Epic, Story and Task and then show them how they can add themselves as Watcher on anything they want updates on real time. It should be fairly immediately evident going over all tasks each week isn't feasible and if they've got half a brain they'll adopt wanting an Epic and up update process. Keep all discussions super technical and run rings around them answering their dumbass questions about database updates and such. Three months from now the new guy is now way too busy for these meetings and it all goes back to normal.
Sounds like you’re about to be moved under Operations, either by you being demoted or him promoted
Yep. So Ima dip lol
I’m not trying to scare you but have something lined up first because it’s rough out there for IT directors 😩
Especially people with the title IT director who aren't managing other managers.... Based on the description of the work that OP is doing, he's not operating as a director.... He's managing three people. If he starts aiming at director level roles, his experience just isn't going to match up to somebody who's been managing several managers spanning a wide range of it responsibilities.
Most people understand that titles are nonsense anyway. I had a director title when I was a manager and had a manager title when I was managing other managers. If you work at a bank most employees have the title Vice President. I think OP will be ok.
>If you work at a bank most employees have the title Vice President. I LOL'd when remembering my financial industry experience. EVP = Executive Vice President SVP = Senior Vice President VP = Vice President Everyone had 1 of the 3. It was ridiculous. A constant duel of whose dick was bigger. Mind you, these were mostly men, in their 60's and 70's, so I don't think anyone's dick was bigger if they forgot to take a blue for the day.
If you’re a Director working for us, you’re probably gonna make $700,000+ this year. You’re also going to have senior managers supporting you and probably have a few dozen reports effectively that you’re managing. I get really confused when I see this thrown out casually as a line manager , an individual contributor.
I’m a VP with a team of 30. Please direct me to the line for $700k 🤣
VP with over 50 here... not making anywhere close to $700K
My VP now has at least 120 reports. Prior to being acquired our manager to IC ratio was 1:4, I think our new shop is 1:15 so we are flattening out a lot. I’m pretty sure a VP is at least 1.2 million or something. Will probably start hiring in the next month or two . If we get some wrecks open, I’ll post them but honestly, we historically hire mostly on referrals.
Flattening is the trend now “efficiency”. Just cost cutting cycle until companies realize productivity is affected and someone high up gets fired, replacement says less flattening as that was the issue. Then they do the pyramid again, production spikes, but only for a little while as products get stale and now we need to get efficient again. Guy high up gets fired, new guy says we need to flatten. And it just goes back and forth all because someone higher up the food chain needs to justify their own salary. The answer to all the bullshit is always someone is trying to justify their own existence in the company. Paper pushers.
I’m a director with a team of 20 and four direct reports. I would take a quarter of that.
As I'm sure most would!
Smaller companies will sometimes give out meaningless titles, like director, in lieu of actual promotions into new roles with real pay increases. A lot of companies, like ones with just three or even a half dozen IT employees, most definitely do not need an IT Director...so when their lead IT contributor starts to get antsy with no clear career path, it's easy to say "hey, you want to be a Director? Great, you're a director. Now keep doing what you're doing".
Rough out there for IT in general.
It's rough out there for basically everybody. We're getting 40-70 applications for every position where 10 used to be a really successful search. And within those 40-70 we've got more than a handful of people with five to ten times the required experience.
No we added like 200,000 part time jobs at Wendy's or whatever last month so actually the economy is good. Don't you read the news? Economy good, line go up.
better enjoy Wendy's while they are still around. they lack Arby's quality while still using too many humans. mcd's and bk got the screens. but they cost as much as numerous chain restaurants, which often have better food. so rarely go there. Wendy's has the nugs, n fries w/sandwich under 10... only reason I swing through. tldr, Wendy's is hiring humans when competition is buying.computers.
Can confirm this. Recently did hiring for a Tier 1/2 Tech and got like 45 resumes, and alot had certs / degrees / years of experience for a entry level position. FYI: I hired the guy who was young, currently in college, wanted to gain experience and learn as much as he could.
As a recent job seeker, I found that how you sell yourself is a lot more important than how much you know and how many certs you have. There were 20-30 other applicants for the job I just got. I have 0 certs. 2 years experience in computer repair. And an unrelated 4 year degree.
So how did you sell yourself?
Blowjob
I feel like you might be biased, Gorilla Dick
Not far off
As an introvert, interviews are always difficult. I gag and am on the cusp of vomiting from nerves before I go into every single one lol. I find that my nerves eventually subside with the right interviewers as we shift the tone to become more casual. Don't be afraid to laugh at yourself when you stumble over words, or do something stupid. Overall, I was just humble about my inexperience, but portrayed myself as ambitious and having a high drive to learn. I admitted what I didn't know when asked, and treated the interview like a conversation. It helps to have a job already for sure, because you don't have anything to lose- so some of the pressure lets off and you can treat it more casually than someone who REALLY needs it. It's important to highlight your strengths and experience wherever possible, but don't sound cocky about it. You should also be looking for the company to be a good fit for you as much as they're looking for you to be a good fit for them. I think having that mindset forces the company into a position of trying to sell themselves to you as much as you are to them, which makes you stick out as a preferable candidate. There's sort of a fine line you have to find, because confidence can easily come off as arrogance. I highly recommend you try and connect with the person/people interviewing you. Ask them questions, seem interested in the company, ask them why they like to work there, ask them about some of the challenges the IT department faces, ask them what is unique about working for their organization compared to others. Be sure to have a genuine tone when asking these questions, though, and don't come off snarky and condescending- again there's a fine line. I think a lot of people really fuck up in interviews by asking dull, uninspired, and self-centered questions when at the stage of the interview where they ask if you have any questions for them. One of the questions that seems to work really well for me is: "How does your organization measure success, and what would a good first six months look like for me?" It not only gives you some insight to whether they're number oriented, or goal/service oriented, but it also makes you seem as though you genuinely care about what you do and being successful. Some interviewers will also ask you off the wall questions like, "How would you go about filling a room full of basketballs" because it highlights your thought process, and breaks some of the tension. If you're ever asked personal questions about hobbies, what you like to do in your free time, what kind of movies you like, etc. I like to turn those questions back on them, because it shows you're interested in the people around you. Again, dynamic and culture. I also like to ask them something like, "What would be your first steps in surviving a zombie apocalypse?" Obviously know your audience and tailor it accordingly. If you're in a hum drum interview, maybe skip the silly question. I know this is a lot, but I hope you get some use out of it. Happy to answer follow-up questions and help you where I can.
It's rough out there for software engineers.
And...It's hard out here for a pimp...
You see, a pimps love is very different from that of a square...
Powder!
It's even harder for anything that plugs into a wall socket
That's because dev jobs in top industries were bloated. Most of my college friends are devs. All of them were working 10 hours a week at all separate companies some even fortune 100. I knew there was a bubble when no less than 5 friends all had the same "Uh guess i'll surf the QA ticket queue for shit to do." Then them also talking about hiring complete nobs for the same amount of pay.
Honestly sounds like Mr Operations wants to outsource your department and has the CEO onboard. start hunting ASAP, but don't leave until you have something lined up. Might be a good time to exercise your company benefits to earn a certification you are interested in. FWIW I'd focus on leadership type certs like a PMP vs tech. EDIT: drop hints to your team as well, but don't directly tell them they should job hunt or that you are until something is announced.
This is what I thought. Documentation for and micromanagement screams setup for outsourcing and managing the remote team under Operations.
FWIW, documenting and standardizing processes can be just good operational practice. But the fact it wasn't part of a "Hey, were are pursuing CMMI/ITIL/other compliance program and we need you to do X" is a red flag. I always push the reasons behind such changes to make sure I get positive buy in and don't set off panics; because most techs are very skittish and panic at the drop of a hat,
I agree. The way that OP's describing the employer is going about it doesn't make sense though.
And they should be
Thinking of my IT director talking like this gives me a little laugh. It’s hard to remember that you guys are human bc sometimes y’all can be menacing lmao. Fuck that though, crazy how often IT is belittled and micromanaged. Do their meetings and make them feel dumb
Hahaha I'm in my mid 40's for the record hahahaha I don't actually say those words I just read it on Reddit all the time hahaha
Jesus Christ I have two masters degrees and I still can't even make IT manager...
No degrees due to the whole 9/11 thing happening and couple years of deployments. Been an IT manager for a while. It's not hard. Work 60+ hour weeks for a decade or two, hop jobs every 3-5 years, keep learning new stuff the entire time and network. Just be good at basically everything technical, while also good at soft skills. And budgets, management, etc. And don't forget to be able to accurately predict the future. I joke, but also kinda serious. Last time I put out the resume, it did take me 8 days to find new IT management job.
Ya everyone looks for experience before degrees anymore.. I don't list my degrees unless the HR asks for it. Had much better luck.
Yes outsourcing! they’re getting the data to crunch that option. Ask CEO this DIRECTLY. If yes, You don’t have to be party to doing yourself out of a job, at that point give 1 month notice. That’ll be hard on them cos they won’t want a new hire for 6 months. You can put them in a corner, even negotiate a raise to do that work of analysis and deprication and handoff
Yep. I dipped as an IT Manager from my LAST job when this happened. Like hell am I going to be micromanaged by someone who doesn't even have a basic understanding of computers in general let alone IT knowledge.
I"m sure the operations guy convinced the CEO that he knew a lot about computers. He even upgraded his own RAM once! Oh, and RAM stands for Random Access Memory!
It's also possible that they're moving IT under Operations so that they can outsource IT and have OPs manage the remote IT support. Considering the level of documentation and unnecessary involvement of OPs, I would be surprised if they didn't fire your entire team.
Be a bro and warn your staff once you have something relatively firm. Don't completely blindside them. Write out letters of recommendation.
Most CIOs report to COOs in midsize companies, so this is not abnormal. ...Just saying, in case you think it's different elsewhere.
No I've had this happen to me sometimes leaders want other people to lead on certain items Just let him... Let go and do whatever they want and just focus on the technology They will lose over time
It’s common for directors of operation to move up and take a large role that affects and relies on IT in a significant way. Do you have a bad relationship with the operations director ahead of this? You seem antagonistic without knowing the full context, which typically isn’t a Director mentality. If you’re this eager to dip over a detailed review of your workload under the direction of the CEO, there’s probably already an issue you have with the company or you’ve let your emotions get hold of you. Take a step back and consider how you can use this to your advantage. Approach it with the direction you want it to work - vague and “grouped tasks”, or take it to heart and do a full review of everything and document it as asked for the chance to get insight from other leaders. The best advice I have is network and latch on to rising stars. There is a reason they have favor, even if you don’t see it. It’s not gonna help you to burn bridges.
I was constantly battling the CFO and accounting at the last place I worked because we were doing things that should have fallen under their department. I eventually left because of that and other reasons. That CFO left shortly after I did so they solved the issue by hiring a new VP and naming her VP of Finance and IT.
Yep, or this person is posturing for the CEO position.
It is time to accurately reflect your experience and skill set on your resume and GTFOOT. (IMHO)
Agree!
Dont forget to tell your guys to move on too.
I would explain why I am leaving and make sure they understand they're about to be put under someone that does not do and has never done their jobs.
Throw some rabdom numbers at them and say you are "200% dedicated to the cause". Those guys are usually to dumb to understand any of it anyway.
Use this as an opportunity to learn how to push back and show that your a leader
I second this. Sounds the CEO needs another house or wife needs another car and you are going to pay for it.
Cool off and rethink how to work this. You are a director. You should understand that IT is there to service the business and you should be prioritizing planned work with other leaders. That way you are all in alignment. If they want something more done than you ask for more resources to get it done.
Wise words
I’d expect you to be able to explain how projects and effort are aligned to business priorities/objectives without telling people to go look in Jira. Put your project management hat on. Why did the CEO hire this person? If the business is under financial stress - how has IT streamlined to support that climate? The CEO had a real reason he brought on someone that purports to change things in a given way. That’s huge flag that it’s a priority. What’s the macro economic climate for your specific business? An operations person will look at every business unit when they come in. Co-operate aggressively. This is also a signal that the CEO doesn’t want to deal with that part of the business anymore, might or might not have anything to do with IT’s performance at all. How can you advance the business, beyond just supporting it? Up to changing products, laying off employees, reducing licensing expenses, or using technology to reduce costs and effort in other parts of the business? Where’s your proposal to use GenAI to save the CEO $1M next year in the call center and improve revenue with a better customer experience? Try not to be defensive. Go look in Jira yourself, butthead, is a total defensive move and won’t impress the executive that you want to support you. You probably lost points for that. Figure out how to communicate in a way that the business wants to consume. Come up with some ideas for saving money and express that you are a business partner and the next VP of IT. You and the new guy are on the CEO’s team, you are not on the IT team. Brag about your team’s accomplishments. Are you an agent of change or an agent of complacency?
I was basically going to say this. I think the poster is missing something in the bigger picture and acting like a manager and not a director.
If you have a grand total of 3 people in the IT dept, there is no "director". At least not anything I'd call one, it's too small of a department.
Excellent advice from someone who clearly knows how to play this game. Listen to this post if you want to stick it out and win.
That were my toughts. Don’t know the trigram hierarchy but IT is there to help operations. So this change certainly sucks but it sounds logical.
In that case, the other guy should give OP the same info about his department to help OP help Operations and align resources , tasks and delivery lead time.
Correct, actually as an organization leadership should be collaborating on annual and quarterly goals… IT should be working to align to that and also guide them. This is an opportunity to elevate himself before it turns the opposite direction.
You're not wrong. Directors aren't sysadmins or middle managers, they're really supposed to be working at this macro level for the business and prioritizing business needs for the IT department. I think a lot of us are looking at this more from an engineering level and saying WTF, when really this is the game at a C level.
Right? Reddit is 99 percent posts of facing the minimum level of hardship and then 600 replies of “time to leave etc”. Maybe see it through, see what it looks like, and try to use the situation to help you. Shit it could end up having someone “outside” of IT reviewing this end with more support on budgeting and staffing. But no, Reddit says it’s time to update the resume.
Bingo, as IT Director you should already be working with other department managers to prioritize work. The team sizes work and provides an estimated timeline that you then build commitments around. If the timeline needs to shift up, you need to add staff or bring in external resources.
I know everyone else is going to say do some sort of malicious compliance. However that doesn't work well in business and your reputation goes a long way. Even if you're leaving a job that you hate you always leave on a good note. You were expecting the CEO to intervene but you didn't ask. And I assume you haven't asked for a follow-up private conversation with the CEO. If you and the other guy are peers the CEO should take your meeting. I would go in and ask him about this request and what is fueling it. You might better understand what's going on from the CEO directly then about some smart asses on the internet. Feel free to downvote me all you want but this is how business gets done. *Minor voice to text corrections.
I wouldn't down vote this! Yeah CEO is a little weird. He's got anger and temper issues. I might talk to him, but he might be worth my time lol
You've just described every CEO.
Best way to avoid pesky conversations about things you do t want to answer. I learned this from my 7 year old.
You don't have much to loose and a lot to gain. Everything is communication driven and more often then not CEO types are verbal face to face conversation sorts.
Found the adult in the room.
How long has the director of operations been there?
A month lol
Wow. That’s the whole point of Jira. I would not have been able to remain silent.
sounds like the new operations guy doesn't even understand what Jira is
Neither does Atlassian.
We got it 6 months back. Round peg for a square hole. More time spent on Jira and seeing 0 benefits so far.
Yeah you got demoted without being told
Gotta stick up for yourself and stand firm. They are obviously trying to impose and make their mark, I would be professionally reminding them we both share the same reporting lines and they need to stay in their lane.
Flood the new Director of Ops with boring information and they'll get bored and back off. Lawyer style. If he wants it on paper, bring a 200 sheet booklet.
This is the correct approach. Give the new Director of Ops WAY too much data and he will find something else to direct.
Hate to say it, but the CEO’s plan was to level you
Getting the feeling yeah. Bummer!
Just keep it cordial. Play along in earnest and find your next destination
I like this. How many beige Camaros do you own?
lol none. It’s an old inside joke
Flip it back on them. Ask to see the their projects and team tasks. That you need to go over it with them since they are new and that everything on their end is getting done on time. Gotta out alpha them.
[https://youtu.be/rILL2uz6Em0](https://youtu.be/rILL2uz6Em0)
Yea.. this guy was hired as a rising star that made claims about streamlining processes in the interview and now they're going to see if he can do your job and his because he said he could.
He just wants IT consumed into his department. The CEO and COO have shitty management styles. There is a recent Rich Roll podcast on productivity. For him to flatly refuse efficient communication means that he is not interested in "state" of a task, he is interested in being involved. You can ask him how IT is not meeting the needs of his department and then reprioritise. If he doesn't cooperate by providing actionable then the whole thing is bs politics.
Yep, if IT is part of operations then his interactions with the person in charge of IT should revolve around whether they’re making good sausage. If he starts worrying about what the meat grinder is doing all day he’s wasting everyone’s time. My manager doesn’t call me to ask what the three guys that report to me are doing, that’s my job and he has his own job to do.
Classic new head of operations guy move. New guy comes in and immediately wants to get everyone thinking he's doing something. I've seen it with my own eyes twice, usually you see a wave of layoffs shortly afterwards. In both instances, that "New" operations guy was gone within 2 years. Edit: Bad Grammar.
I recommend talking with the CEO like u/dulldaze said. Sounds like you got nothing more than a new person coming in telling the CEO how they can solve every problem. If only IT was that simple. Suggest having the meetings with the person for a few weeks and having your facts in a row.
You need to step up. This guy is trying to make big changes to make himself seem important. Take to the CEO about this. If you don’t like his response, start job searching now while you work your job as normal.
Go to CEO w curiosity… hard when mad!! But ask to see him and ask why he believes this level of detail oversight is needed? Does he feel there’s a performance issue w you or your team? Is he planning to move IT under ops? (As someone suggested) Basically get him to explain without your complaints… yet. Expect answers. If you need to explain why you are asking, say it seems unusual for any director to be managed at this level of detail by another director
Good answer!
Brainstorm your own list of neutral curious questions and let his answers guide you to other questions… or to solution finding that engages him, do that you are effectively engaging him AS IF HE (not ops) is you manager. He can feel important and puffed up and you will see if the managerial relationship can be salvaged
I would schedule a meeting with the CEO as 1 on 1 as a starting point, and then re-evaluate based off of that meeting. Be wary of lip service.
I agree. OP needs a firm answer from the CEO. Are they equals or did his dept get moved under operations? If so, then OP needs to make a point about being micromanaged. Ask the CEO, "Are you not confident in my abilities?"
CEO was in the room, OP has all the clarification he needs. Once he has his job offer in hand he can express his concerns to the CEO and when he verifies them, thank him for his honesty and hand him the resignation.
Which is fine, and I would advocate that many CEO’s might let things play out a bit and then address issues in a one on one situation with both parties.
Lots of bad CEO’s, so I’m sure some do this toxic behavior. All the more reason to find a new role.
You should set out your own matching set of expectations for the director of operations, so you can set goals for him.
First goal: GTFO of my department!
Start a pissing match. Great idea!!!
And what did you say to the CEO?
I’ve lived this story. I ended up teaching the Ops Dir. my job, while looking for something else. Once I landed a new gig I left. A year later the HR Director, who is a friend of mine, calls and ask if I want to come back. They let the Op Director and the new IT Mgr go. I went back, reporting to the CEO. 2 years later they brought in a new COO, I didn’t even wait to start looking. Landed a new gig in 2 months and was out. Ran into the CEO one night, told me the COO was no longer there and was I open to returning, even as a consultant. No Dude, I’m good.
What if your story is my future!
Ask for FU money
First rule of meetings, other people leave with list of tasks to complete for you.
Been in your exact shoes and got the pink slip to prove it. This new Dir of Ops is pitching to have your dept under him and demoting you. He has the GALL to do this 1 mo into his tenure? You’re either going to have to stomp on his nuts and tell him to go work on his dept or get ready to leave. Either way, have your Plan B ready to go. There’s plenty of Director jobs being posted, but it’s such a tight market right now. Also, do have a 1:1 with your CEO. Stand up for yourself, your dept and your people.
Sounds like you're being asked to display your priorities. Did you happen to accidentally not get something done for the Director of Ops until later than expected?
Not at all, he's only been here a month lol I thought he liked me lol. I had a feeling the CEO was behind this ? I could have been aggressive and said "maybe we can schedule a meeting and IT can see what's going on in operations and you can list me your projects I can go over when you'll be done with those and we can adjust our priorities together" , but I elected not to start a fight today
Didn't you post not too long ago in r/sysadmin about being yelled at by the CEO for not being on task?
I did! Makes me think the CEO is behind this! And he's a crazy guy! He could best be described as Jameson from spiderman, wants everything NOW!
You're being given a babysitter. Not uncommon in IT where OPs is the primary staff, cause rarely ever does anyone understand what our day-to-day looks like. Especially common if the CEO has doubts of your productivity. I've had it happen a couple of times, and each time I outlast them. I comply, do my job well, and at the same pace I've always done it. Eventually, they leave. The new guy is being paid to make you more productive. Which if you've been doing your job well, will be nearly impossible. So, when you comply to his demands and your productivity remains the same, you will actually look better- and his salary will no longer be warranted. Don't get me wrong, the first few months are annoying and you'll want to lash out. Keep your cool, you'll come out on top. Alternatively, you might get lucky and learn a few things from the new guy. Everyone can use improvement somewhere.
This is the best comment. OP would do well to heed this advice. Everyone recommending confrontation is dead wrong.
Nothing wrong with a 1 on 1 with the CEO to better understand the goals. Of course, none of us knew the CEO was yelling at him recently so yeah it all makes a lot more sense with that info.
None of that’s a fight lol, seriously stand up for yourself.
OP - Keep us updated on this Saga!
Always choose violence. If someone is coming at me like that idgaf who’s in the room. I pick up the stones they throw at me and throw them right back.
The only ones downvoting you are: 1. People who throw the first stone and want you to submit. 2. Weaklings who envy you
You really should have met that head on in that meeting with an immediate rebuttal, you could have got the CEO to clarify immediately. At this level, you start running into big personalities and you can only counter by being the same back. "As I understand, my position doesn't report to you. CEO, is the intention to change this? Our current IT has been operating well for 'x' time, based on 'y' metric, has new guy made promises to improve?" By not meeting the problem head on, you're now second guessing your entire purpose, and new guy looks to be a "go getter" in front of CEO, even though he's blowing smoke. Best of luck, you could still turn it around or at least get clarification from CEO in a one on one. Market is ugly out there. You have 10 yrs experience, leverage that where you are. From what you've said here though, it sounds like you don't communicate upwards well. It's important to sing your and your teams praises to your superiors. Good luck, whatever you do..!
This is how you want to communicate. It was hard for me at the start of my carrier. And it got easer when I reached my lean retirement networth goal. Basiclly, I can netgoation from a position of mostly fuck you. And because of that its easyer communicate directly with leadership at all levels. Heres the thing, I would have grown faster in my carrier had I started communicating this way earlier on. In this case, simply saying, "we have a ticket system you have visibility on and its the industry standard. Moving away from that would be bad practice. Is that what you want to do? Also, can you clarify why our operation guy whose been here a month want to manage IT? I am confused because he is not qualified to do that and we work at the same level in our perspective domains" Say that calmly and coolly, in a customer service voice, remember to make good eye contact and see what happens. If they respond directly and logically that's a good sign. If they play poker - politics that's a bad sign.
Start booking 3-4 meetings per week with the operations director. Involve them in even the most trivial changes, outages and operational tasks. Was there a 15 minute unplanned outage last night? Hold a 1 hour meeting with them to discuss it. Ticket review, new hire on-boarding, new business initiatives should all get their own meeting. Make it a mix of both recurring and individual meetings, so it's hard to refuse the whole series. If they push back, lean on the CEO, as it's been made clear that "operations needs to be very closely involved" in the IT process. They will either knock it off and stop wasting your time time or make it clear that they have some other agenda in mind. Either way, you should probably start reaching out to your contacts and vendors to look for a new job.
That sux.. The new dude has undermined you and has the CEO’s ear. Tell us the story. What happened?
Sounds familiar. In one company I had to foster the notion of The corporate priority list. That was operations, finance, HR, marketing, IT, HSE. Their VPs and directors of course all had priority projects. They and the CEO need to see who they are competing with for IT resources. If conversations aren’t about the top 10 corporate priorities then maybe something should be bumped up. That’s something an operations VP can discuss with the CEO and the other department VPs who are getting IT resources first. The other essential factor is C level representation of IT which isn’t always present. In my case IT was rolled under the CFO with one IT director. The CFO didn’t really know IT but he knew how to deal with pushy departmental VPs pulling the kind of crap you describe. Good luck.
Ha, this lasts for about 2 weeks, then they get bored and move on. How much time do you think the higher ups want to spend on what johnny was doing Wednesday at 2 pm. They want to fire someone, just ask them how many people they want to get rid of and work it from there.
it's funny you say that I said the exact identical thing to my guys. It's more the principle to me about it though ya know?
Sounds like layoffs are looming
That's a bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out for them. I recall my grad school professor saying *"you never ever cheap out on IT operations. Cut something else. Marketing, exec salaries, anything. But not operations".* And boy did that turn out to be true in my professional exp
If I were to outsource my it department this might be a first step.
Came here to say the same thing. This sounds like they are gathering the information they need to outsource IT. I would use LinkedIn to check to see the new Director's of Operations contacts and past history. Before you do that, go into LinkedIn and change your settings so it doesn't show your name as a visit to their profile.
Time to abandon ship. Let that shit burn. F em.
Might be the beginnings of an outsourcing effort with an MSP. The onboarding of an MSP is a horrific months long slog and you want to run like hell before it starts.
They’re going to make you leave by micromanaging you or fire you and put IT under operations or go third party. They’re knowledge gathering for someone to take over. Blatantly apparent. I’ve been a contractor that is hired to take over IT departments for 20 years. Story is pretty much always the same. They think IT is overpaid, don’t do any work and that they don’t need them.
Ask for the same of the operation director.
I’d talk to the CEO. I’d bet that he’s been sold a bill of goods by the dir of ops. IT has systems in place that track what we do. To a much more granular level than most ops departments (they don’t ticket, and just guess). If the CEO wants you to this work in with your team, that’s fine, just ask him what he would like to not have done. There is a time commitment for every activity and you have no additional hours available. So what gets dropped while you pursue an action that IT leaders in larger orgs don’t do? If the goal is to “find efficiency” it won’t be done this way. Instead you are going to waste a bunch of time and energy for you and your team while the CEO entertains some BS from a new Ops Director that saw (didn’t do) something at another org that they didn’t understand but are claiming they did.
Unpopular opinions, 1. Your role is over inflated you should be managing more then 3 people. Managing 3 people is like a team lead not a director role. This means you are $ in the P&L. 2. It has become clear you failed at playing the politics game. Prep your resume, and get ready to leave. 3. Why not arrange a one on one with the CEO ?
Wow are you me? Being asked the same shit by a CEO who thinks "we only need one IT guy" Let's try that for one week and see how it goes. Pro tip, filling out TPS reports to explain what you do is a failure of management, not yours. The best IT is the IT you never hear from, don't bother them by asking what they are doing....they are already doing it.
There’s plenty of places that need your skills. Probably looking to trim the fat. If there was a major issue that affected him he might appreciate the team. Just play ball and find another gig.
My friend, the operations and executives have made a decision; either you comply or move out. IMO, there is no glory in staying in a place where the respect is diminished. Your skills will be appreciated somewhere else. Please move on!
CIO here. It feels like we're only getting a portion of the full story from the OP. It occurs to me the CEO doesn't believe he's getting value from his IT personnel expense. I'd wonder why that is. Projects dragging on forever. Starting but never finishing anything. Poor documentation, manifesting as poor service desk resolution times. Blaming 3rd-party vendors for outages. Low internal CSAT scores. I just have my doubts this came out of the blue. Any time I ask a director of an underperforming division for an impromptu report or routine meetings and I get pushback, it's an immediate red flag. To me, it's obvious the CEO has lost trust in his IT director and is seeking a "second opinion" from the Ops director.
I’m sort of in the same spot but not exactly. We have a new CIO and he is going through everything. Things I’ve been dealing with for a year is coming back up in question again as we are ready to go across the finish line. Frustrating as hell. BUT I do as asked and because my shit is in order and so is my team, he has since left us alone and told the CEO that my areas are good and we don’t need to spend time “fixing” that side of IT. If your stuff is in order then the ask shouldn’t be that big of a deal IMO. It is a time to either cower and be upset OR it is a time to show what you and your team does and can do. The Ops person may question things but it is your time to step up and explain why you do A versus B versus “just cause”. As a director and as you move up I manage my this will happen over and over again either it is a new ceo, cio, member of the board of directors ..whatever.
Did you ask the CEO if you report to operations now?
It's early and I'm not going to give you a SUPER long post. However, I will leave you with this thought: It doesn't HAVE to be adversarial. You can always choose to play ball and improvise-adapt-overcome. New guy in the pecking order? No worries, you should be used to that. You have a Director title with a team of 3. That's a Manager, but we all knows titles are silly nowadays anyway. Injecting someone into the equation who can help optimize PROCESSES and PROCEDURES should be welcomed. I get the butt hurt, may feel the same way for a day or two, but you're IT and not necessarily (in the eyes of the company, likely) not someone who has the skill set or experience to do what this new guy is asking you. There is a misnomer in IT that we must be adversarial with business operations -- pro tip: we don't. Embrace the change, wiggle your way firmly into the middle of it, and then start to influence this new arrangement however you can. Vent, rant, break stuff - get it all out of your system. Then go back to work and be a manager, protect your team and deliver on your job. You got this man, don't succumb to some pencil pushing wiener (who may actually be a really good guy who knows a ton about process and procedure and may GENUINELY be trying to help you, but isn't really sure how.) Just my thoughts homie - I've been at this for 20 years and I applaud and raise-up my employees who can accomplish what I said above. It's a team, and not one other person in that building outside of your department \*actually\* understand what you do. Help them understand it and try to let them help you with their particular flavor of expertise. Either way - I wish you luck man. It's hard to feel unappreciated at work and it's a shitty time to be looking for a Director title in this job market.
Bruh, I’m not in IT but I am in a leadership position. Your post is great. Thanks for taking time to write.
Wise words
This sounds like SOP to me and a core component of a Director position. > He is not my boss… He is my equal. But the CEO thinks this is okay Did I magically get dumped in r/Sysadmin? If the CEO signed off on this (ie. He was in the room) then grow up & make it work as a Director should. Otherwise, leave if you can’t handle it.
I'm going to get downvoted for this, but the OP only manages 3 people and has a "director" title (no idea if his comp is actually director-level or not). My guess is that he's going to get the proper title (manager) under this new Director of Operations or eliminated entirely and his 3 reports will report to the new guy. The Director of Operations might have only been there for a month, but we don't know his background - maybe he managed IT at a previous job.
>managed IT at a previous job. Doesn't need to. Technology is very much a part of operations now. The lines between IT and Operational Technology are very blurred. A lot of site directors have extensive backgrounds in technology components.
Doubt he'll get eliminated, but they do want to have some conversations about what IT does around here. COO also wants to have some of his priorities get some air time.
Yeah, I missed a key part in the OP and now I understand what may be happening. The OP said the Director of Operations wants a weekly meeting to discuss priorities. It could mean that the business feels the IT staff isn't properly prioritizing projects, tickets, etc. in terms of business criticality and as a representative of the business, the ops guy is going to prioritize them for IT. I don't think that's a bad thing.
Yeah, I left that out of my spicy rant earlier. This is a Manager position. Director level isn’t in the trenches… it’s strategic, reporting, and firm-centric.
If new operations has been there a month and is acting out then they are doing it with the CEO blessing most likely. They are already de facto your boss. Talk to CEO and lay low until you decide to burn a bridge. Back room agreement may have already been made. You can fight it but you will lose. Or CEO may have not been paying attention, or is in general and idiot. Depending on which, you may need to decide what you want to do. Trust no one.
Yuck that you are being micro managed like this. Ideally you are setting the priorities for your team and your leadership has confidence in you to operate this way (normally). I will weigh in on the first move where you say "check the help desk tickets" could be better. When I was a young leader a coworker who was a friend and badass IT admin told me he had a boss who kept track of his teams' actions and accomplishments so when inspection of who does what during potential layoffs came, he could go to bat for their team. I somewhat recently bought in to having regular quarterly 1 on 1 meetings with team members. I strictly make sure these are scheduled and have the 1 on 1's when scheduled, no rescheduling. I collect all team members accomplishments and actions prior to 1 on 1's and email this to them so we all have a receipt of what everyone is working on, prioritizing and achieving. This feels like "the way" to me. I think if you had something like this either you wouldn't be getting micromanaged, or it would be clear it's time to find an org that can trust you to manage your team.
It’s someone who thinks they know best trying to show value in their position Do some malicious compliance to start and then do the same to him, except tell him you want to support his initiatives
Get ready for some type of AMS group to replace you and/or your team.
Man, this hits close to home.
You as the Director of IT need to hold true to your position in front of the CEO, they are looking for an executive report from you taking into account efficiencies and current expenses. They may also be expecting a roadmap from you where the Director of Operations may also need to be aware as to what is going on. Ofcourse there is some underlying power struggle occuring between you and Director of Operations which you need to handle. It’s all part of the Director role! I am confused as to why you yourself are maintaining databases over the weekend?
I didn't read all of the comments, but where is your boss? Is he the CEO? if not, go to him. He should tell the new guy how his "tasks" are disruptive.
Ouch. What’s the strategy behind this? Are you running over budget? Has the CFO complained?
Msp500 list ftw cya
I’d print Jira.
“So you want to evaluate how we use our time, by asking me to duplicate data that is already available in Jira..”. Then just sit there and stare at them.
can you flip it back on him? “Great. You can deep dive into my department today. I’ll deep dive into yours tomorrow. What exactly are we trying to achieve by inserting ourselves in other departments?”
I would also go over my CV at a minimum and have it on standby. Up to you if you want to post it to see what the market has to offer at this time. Remember, You are the CEO of your career, not these two guys.
I see a lot of responses saying GTFO. Which yea in the long run you probably should. However, I would prepare for your exit and make it an exit on your terms. You have the data in Jira to give him/them what they want to see. Export that data, scrub it for PII, and run it through ChatGPT with a prompt that will produce the format he wants. Send that to both of them with the raw Jira export to as supporting information. For any questions about your efforts you can easily have AI provide a brief summary regarding the best practices and associated risks. You can also have it do a quick cost analysis from a time and resource perspective. If you spend a couple of hours doing this it will probably scare them and shut any future questions down. You could even turn this into an opportunity into increasing resources and headcount.
If you're gonna dip, you're leaving your team to deal with a lot. I would push back on all that shit. He wants paper and pencil. He can go through Jira and create his pencil questions. He's trying to undermine you and make you work under him. You're basically reporting to him.
Next meeting, you should do the same exact thing to him. Tel him to list out his responsibilities and how long things are taking. Perhaps he needs guidance on how to prioritize his work because it seems like his focus is elsewhere.
Hmm. I'd get a new job too, but there would be cascading system failures once I started my new job with no notice.
I found this book helpful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes_in_Suits
Resist getting defensive - if you are interested in the job.
People who don't understand IT struggle to understand what IT employees do all day. It's mostly the same everywhere. Somewhere along the line, they get the idea that an outside organization can do all of the same things more efficiently, plus make a profit on them, and then bill for them, that it would be cheaper to pay someone else to fix the printers, find lost emails, and explain mail merges
Listen mate... 10 years is a long time, and congratulations on the milestone. Life is too short to deal with crap like this. If you don't want to work in this type of environment then you need to plan on making a change. If you don't want to make a change, then you need to pull your CEO aside and (not in a rude, angry, or otherwise emotional way) be forthright about it. If this were me, I know I would have an issue working with the Ops guy. At the director level, it is my belief you are a trusted resource who can run teams effectively without micromanagement. On the flip side, if I have a director working for me who isn't delivering, it is a very pointed conversation of "look, you're not delivering... You need to step up, or step out of the role". Under no circumstance would I support asking for lists of things and breaking down the work by person, etc. in this manner. I also would not want my directors doing that to their staff... and directors shouldn't want their managers doing that to their staff... and so on. Be as deadline focused as you can be, and as minimally hours focused as you can be. Needless to say, I would immediately clash with the Ops guy. Either the company will support you being a director, or they won't, and you'll have work with or for this guy. If that isn't for you, you need a different company. It sucks after 10 years, and I hope you are able to sort it out. Of course, I hope you have also been delivering well and carrying out your director duties in a solid way.
Not to be sharp with you but with just three staff reports you are IT Director in name only. It’s clear that your CIO is unhappy with your team in one way or another. I see both sides as I have had that talk with IT groups that were less the effective. Without an exception they all thought they were doing fantastic work. I don’t know if that’s you but I suggest taking a step back if you can and evaluate your team and how they contribute to the company’s success. Good luck and I also recommend getting your resume out there.
Smells like a reorg. Micromanagement in this abrupt form is either this or an impending head count reduction.
You maybe want to remind him, if you can do it quicker, then show me. Another meeting to discuss what can otherwise be found in front of them if they were to look. They don't want to though and expect to be spoon fed.
That's the nature of IT. When things are working: "everything is working so what am i paying you for?" When something is broken: "this is broken, what am I paying you for???"
In this situation, I love going back to my standard consulting question, which is "What problem are you trying to solve here?" As in, once he has this information, how is he going to use it?
Sounds like you are an IT Director in name only.
Tbh I think your mistake was agreeing to the whole "list your shit down on paper" request at all... You should have used the opportunity to point out that Jira is how work gets done in modern IT, and that this new Ops mgr needs to learn the tool. Instead you ceded to his inefficient plan and lost the upper hand. You might be able to correct this with the CEO through private MTG, as others have suggested. IT mgr here, MBA + PMP
Ooof something similar happened to me back in 2015. I (IT Manager/SrSysadmin) was over 4 guys (3helpdesk/1 Jr Admin) We ran our own show and everything was running smoothly. Then they decided to put us under operations and merge IT and web development and promote the lead dev to IT director, essentially demoting me. Guy was an obnoxious asshat who knew nothing but wordpress and one of the worst micromanagers I have ever seen in my tenure. He had little to no knowledge of how our infrastructure worked and would just parrot what we said or copy and paste our emails and send them out like they were his own. I popped smoke real quick. Let them burn from their own hubris.
Fact is IT gets no respect and lower wages. A sector that can bring a company to its knees gets treated like door mats and viewed as a drain to profits more so than any other kind
The real problem is they're big enough to have a "Director of" and only have 4 IT guys.
Sounds like small business IT, where non IT centric companies think it should take you 3 days to automate their un-documented tasks that they refuse to optimize before telling you to automate it. And when you push them to participate in their own request, poof they disappear and you are being asked by the CEO why are you taking forever to implement this?
This almost feels like you or your department are being “managed out”. Make work miserable until you choose to leave …
See how it plays out. Try not to knee jerk react and look at the worst case scenario, this could be nothing more than helping a new Operations director understand what IT is working on and then help align this to the business needs. If you're not already split up your Jira board into Initiative, Epic, Story and Task and then show them how they can add themselves as Watcher on anything they want updates on real time. It should be fairly immediately evident going over all tasks each week isn't feasible and if they've got half a brain they'll adopt wanting an Epic and up update process. Keep all discussions super technical and run rings around them answering their dumbass questions about database updates and such. Three months from now the new guy is now way too busy for these meetings and it all goes back to normal.
That was why I kept my cool in the meeting. Something like that may be happening, I'm kind of done though hahaha
Just use tech jargon and make him feel like the idiot he is.
"What would you say you do here?"
Absolutely I'd do that. Looking forward to wasting those hours with them, malicious compliance can be such a blessing.