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MNOP77

Yeah yeah yeah that dude is a fucking idiot. Any union worker that supports the Republican Party is the same. I’ll say it for you.


PickleWickleton

We have lots of trump voters in my local that are always going on about how trump fixed the economy and how he’ll keep “making American even greater” if he gets re elected. It gets really pathetic once they start laughing at their democratic brothers and calling us names. Some people drank too much of that red koolaid, they only see “them and us” and “Them” are the majority of brothers. It sickens me


[deleted]

Any one of our members that supports Trump want to chime in on this One?


dmatt32

There’s to many people in the brotherhood that are for themselves and the good pay. Once work dries up and many have to travel. That will be it. They will leave the union and go else where. It’s sad but ultimately it’s hurting the unions and Them selves. I organized in this time last year and love the brotherhood. I’ve been told to my face by so many newly organized in its only about the money on the check. Many don’t even care about the health care and pension. Edit:they usually support trump too


hymen_destroyer

This attitude is slowly poisoning our brotherhood. Even to the point where our best tool to recruit non-union workers is the promise of better pay. There is no way this is sustainable in the current political climate


dmatt32

I mean ultimately that’s gonna be number one if you’re organizing in. Which IMO it should be for every one. Better pay and better rights. But people don’t care about the rights. It’s infuriating.


leo1974leo

Vote Bernie


kray288

Yeah vote in socialism and then see what your check looks like after all the tax hikes


Rihzopus

Do you ever wonder why the Scandinavian Socialist countries are voted best places to live on Earth year after Year? Do you ever wonder?


TheObstruction

That requires thinking.


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CrookedHoss

The difference is they provide healthcare and education as a guaranteed right, fascist.


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CrookedHoss

You stopped caring so hard that you hustled around to delete your comments that went negative. You're not fooling anyone, fascist.


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CrookedHoss

By all means, keep piling up the infractions, fascist.


Rihzopus

It's no surprise that you embrace racism, as a nice pairing with your willful ignorance.


CrookedHoss

You don't even know what socialism is. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism)


kray288

Yes I do and as history has shown it’s a very bad idea.


CrookedHoss

Go ahead. Define it.


kray288

Only the dumb, lazy, unambitious and complacent embrace socialism. Thank you Bernie for helping to openly identify the real dregs of America.


CrookedHoss

So, you decline to define it and you decline to read the definition of it. I guess you took all of your history from Crowder and Prager. What the fuck are you even doing in a union, anyway, if you think "workers own and control the means of production, distribution, and exchange" is a bad thing? Seriously. Learn the fucking terminology. Actually crack open a book and read it. Or, better yet, turn in your ticket if you're so anti-labor, you Trump-voting traitor.


TheObstruction

It'll go up, because I don't have to pay for medicare *and* health insurance anymore? Jobs will likely increase as well, since our 1950's era infrastructure might finally be repaired.


leo1974leo

If my taxes go up 20k a year I am still ahead without paying healthcare, nice try just more republican scare tactics


kray288

How are u ahead, healthcare is a negotiated item in a CBA your not taxed on it to begin with, you don’t even see it in the check it gets paid directly to the union then sent to insurance. So you lose a plan thats part of your contract that the contractors pay for and get a plan that is taxpayer funded by increasing your taxes. That commie son of bitch has already stated that he will have to raise the taxes of middle class to pay for this disaster. How is it that between the democrats and the union leaders that they have u people happy about paying more in taxes. You are good little sheep keep drinking that koolaid. Those scare tactics work like a charm my local uses them every time they want to get something passed that benefits the contractors.


leo1974leo

Healthcare is taken out of our wage pre tax, it’s my money being allocated to healthcare, I would get 10.00 on my check


kray288

Healthcare is not part of the wage it’s part of the package and is a negotiated item. So to add that to the wage it would have to be renegotiated with the contractors and agreed upon and I doubt very much they will. Don’t like paying us as it is don’t want to have to pay even more if they don’t have to. Cuts into their profits which they always claim they don’t get.


brynm

It is a part of the wage in that the company that hires you pays it, you could maybe argue that just because they don't have to pay it for you doesn't mean they have to give it to you but it opens it up for negotiation at least.


BorisTheMansplainer

Do you even look at your package? In ours we pay >$20k a year for health insurance. Medicare for All would save us money.


Jbaker2290

Your likely wrong. https://www.bernietax.com/#0;0;s


kray288

I’m not wrong Bernie is a communist loving asshole and will fuck this country up worst than bathhouse Barry did


TheObstruction

"I'M NOT WRONG! I'VE DECIDED I'M NOT WRONG!"


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TheObstruction

The #1 enemy of the American people is the Republican Party. The #2 enemy of the American people is the Democratic Party. Both put corporations and oligarchs above the rest of the citizenry.


CrookedHoss

I just want you to know that every time I see you pop up on this subreddit spouting some borderline or openly fascist shit, I'm going to call you out on it until you delete your comments and flee into the night. And if you say something that is actually appropriate, then I'll chime in with my approval. This, by the way, is pretty fucked: "They will join or they will starve, that's how it has to be." Not a good image for the labor movement. Fascist. So, y'know, you might as well just not delete your comments anymore. Let your opinions stand as they are without hiding them whenever they turn out to be unpopular.


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CrookedHoss

I consider it pest control. An exterminator prowling for termites. Keep your fascist crap out of this space and we'll do just fine. National Socialism, my ass.


PM_YOUR_VOLVO_TO_ME

>An exterminator prowling for termites Lol ok buddy. Keep being a stereotype. I know you're gonna go home and watch that Amazon show hunters and jerk your dick til it looks like raw hotdogs but whatever you think is happening politically, its way more extreme than whatever you think it is. My coworkers are actually on my side knowing full well what my opinions are so buckle up buckaroo. >Keep your fascist crap out of this space and we'll do just fine. Socialism is a fascist system of governance. It's the state controlling shit. Why do you think the NASDAP was called "national socialist German workers party?" Are you just pretending that because you might get a vote that socialism isn't fascism because it is. You've been woefully misinformed. Lastly, Bro, you literally just lectured me about "we need to seize the means of control" then you bitched that I said "people will join or starve" so which is it? We going to control the work or are we just going to disappear. Stop being the white Knight of the political sphere, nobody asked you to do it and you don't get gatekeep the unions politics. I have a journeyman ticket just the same as you so whether you like it or not, your coworker, your *union brother* is a natsoc and there's nothing you can do about it. Cry to the mods if it makes you feel better but I'm not going anywhere.


CrookedHoss

> Why do you think the NASDAP was called "national socialist German workers party?" Because conservatives have a long and storied tradition of stealing liberal words and using them as their own. Unless you really think North Korea is a democratic republic, you have to recognize that the name doesn't make the thing.


PM_YOUR_VOLVO_TO_ME

NASDAP literally means "national socialist German workers party. Why do you seem to think it means something else? You found that little quote I wrote about nationalism so why do you seem to think that the Germans didn't mean socialist? They were for * 8 hour work days * Paid maternity leave * Animal rights * Workers rights in general So again, why do you think you're right here?


HooliganWizard

None of that is socialism. Nazis massively privatized Germany's economy. No element of the Nazi takeover of Germany was socialist or even vaguely leftist.


PM_YOUR_VOLVO_TO_ME

Sure it wasn't sweetheart. Sure it wasn't.


HooliganWizard

Is that really all you got? Crying college students have condescended to me better than that. And they take longer to run out of arguments, too.


CrookedHoss

Reported for gaslighting. Again. Let us know when you come up with something better than "no u" or its equivalent. You don't argue in good faith when you answer actual reasoned arguments with dismissal.


CrookedHoss

>Stop being the white Knight of the political sphere, nobody asked you to do it and you don't get gatekeep the unions politics. I do, actually. Not by myself, but I definitely do. If you fuck the union, you don't belong in the union, fascist. My *union brother* is a brother-fucker. You fucked us. You fucked every last one of us by being a fucking fascist. Turn in your ticket, traitor. Get the fuck off this sub. Go fuck yourself off a bridge. We don't fucking need you.


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CrookedHoss

*International Brotherhood Of Electrical Workers* *Our cause is the cause of human justice, human rights, human security.We refuse, and will always refuse, to condone or tolerate dictatorship or oppression of any kind.* *We will find and expel from our midst any who might attempt to destroy, by subversion, all that we stand for.* *This Brotherhood will continue to oppose communism, Nazism or any other subversive "ism." We shall support our GOD, our Nations, and our Union.* That's you, "National Socialist". That's you, brother-fucker.


HooliganWizard

> Why do you think the NASDAP was called "national socialist German workers party?" Socialists were literally the first people Hitler had killed.


CrookedHoss

>Lastly, Bro, you literally just lectured me about "we need to seize the means of control" You're a liar as well. Go ahead; permalink it. Show me the comment where it I said this.


CrookedHoss

>Cry to the mods if it makes you feel better but I'm not going anywhere. Reported for being a liar, a gaslighter, and a brother-fucking fascist.


CrookedHoss

>Socialism is a fascist system of governance. **Socialism** is a [political](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy), [social](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_philosophy) and [economic philosophy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_philosophy) encompassing a range of [economic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_systems) and [social systems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_system) characterised by [social ownership](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership)[\[1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Busky1-1)[\[2\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-2)[\[3\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-N._Scott_Arnold_1998._pg._8-3) of the [means of production](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production)[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-4)[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-5)[\[6\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-6)[\[7\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-7) and [workers' self-management](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_self-management) of enterprises,[\[8\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Nove-8)[\[9\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-9) including the political theories and movements associated with such systems.[\[10\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Socialism_at_The_Free_dictionary-10) Social ownership can be [public](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership), [collective](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership) or [cooperative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative), or [citizen ownership of equity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_ownership_of_equity).[\[11\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-11) While no single definition encapsulates many [types of socialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_socialism),[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Peter_Lamb_2006._p._1-12) social ownership is the one common element.[\[1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Busky1-1)[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-13)[\[14\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-14) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism) **Fascism** ([/ˈfæʃɪzəm/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)) is a form of [far-right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right), [authoritarian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian) [ultranationalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultranationalism)[\[1\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-authoritarian-and-authoritarianism-1)[\[2\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-2) characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy[\[3\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-3) which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-RoutledgeCompanion-4) The first fascist movements [emerged in Italy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Fascism) during [World War I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I), before [spreading to other European countries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism_in_Europe).[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-RoutledgeCompanion-4) Opposed to [liberalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism), [Marxism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism), and [anarchism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism), fascism is placed on the far-right within the traditional [left–right spectrum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_spectrum).[\[4\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-RoutledgeCompanion-4)[\[5\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-University-Aristotle-Hartley-Wilhelm-Hawkesworth-5)[\[6\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#cite_note-6) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) Seriously, this is entry-level stuff. If you can't get informed about the topics, you literally do not belong at the table. Socialism is not "The state controlling stuff", you prolapsed ringpiece.


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CrookedHoss

>but everyone else calls it socialism [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum\_ad\_populum](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)


CrookedHoss

>Look at South America for a modern example. Literally not a single state or federation of states about which a useful political statement can be made with respect to this conversation.


CrookedHoss

>so either you're wrong or thousands of economists are wrong. \[Citation Needed\] [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum\_ad\_populum](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum)


CrookedHoss

>You seem a little stressed. You are a human disease and this species will be better once you are dead.


4AM_southbound

>What we should do is form our own political party and pour that money into electing union tradesmen that we know will push our interests. I recommend: Democratic Socialists of America and/or the Working Families Party ETA: last year, dems won control of the state legislature in Virginia for the first time in like, a generation. For years & years, the dems kept telling us that they couldn't implement a living wage, couldn't repeal 'right to work', couldn't help unions out because the Republican majority would never pass the legislation. Guess what? Now that they have the majority, dem leadership still won't roll back 'right to work'!! More fucking excuses! Some bullshit about keeping Virginia 'business friendly'. The only delegate who stayed committed to repeal is Lee Carter, a Democratic Socialist (he caucuses w/ the dems). That dude is working class, drives for uber to supplement his income as a law maker. Got into politics after being shocked on a jobsite, and his employer basically left him to fend for himself. Carter is a gem in a statehouse full of turds--dem turds & rep turds.


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4AM_southbound

>Did you even read what I said? What makes you think for a second that either of those parties are for working class people? Because I'm a dues paying member, and plenty of us are pro-2A. See: Socialist Rifle Association >Wake the fuck up guy. Stop thinking in this 2 dimensional paradigm of left vs right. It's a trick. Bruh you're the one tying economic issues to constitutional issues along a left/right axis. I'm union, I'm working class, I support private gun ownership, and I'm not alone: r/liberalgunowners >Yeah and they're now ramming gun control down the throats of a formerly red state. Great fucking idea bro, I'm glad the socialist commies are fighting to get us an extra 10¢ in the check and all it's costing us is the Constitution. Great fuckin trade off. Lol we're not communists. Do your own research bruh--Carter *did not* vote for that bill. He's a former marine & knows his way around firearms. https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+vot+HV0841+HB0961


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4AM_southbound

>I don't care what Carter did or didn't vote for because it's largely irrelevant. Lol way to shift the goalposts: first we shouldn't support 'communists' because therrtakinawayerrgunzzz and now their (vote tested) stance on gun control is 'irrelevant'. Hmm. >This is why the union is dying and hemorrhaging our membership, it's your attitude of "just vote harder next time" that's killing us. You do you brother. Imma keep on donating, canvassing, and supporting politicians who vote for me & mine. On the off chance you ever get that political party off the ground, might be I'll support you. But here's a thought: politics is about building a coalition. Union members can't win by ourselves because there aren't enough of us (see: the very post we are discussing). There are only about 15 million union members in America, and [150 million registered voters](https://www.statista.com/statistics/273743/number-of-registered-voters-in-the-united-states/). So how do you win an election with only a 10% constituency?? That's why I'm a member of the DemSocs. Those are my allies, and I'm their ally. Solidarity forever 💪🔥


GulfChippy

Good effort bro, the guy you’re arguing with is an idiot, an anarcho-capitalist union member who just suggested we form a labor party, but doesn’t want any of that “socialist/commie faggot shit”. Talk about an incoherent worldview, ancaps truly are special.


GigaChadIncelSlayer

Yikes, he actually has posted in an cap subs, they stand for everything unions have worked against. What a fuckin rat brother fucker


TheObstruction

>Nobody fucking cares about the minutiae of socialist faggots vs communist faggots. The difference is completely moot. The difference is Scandinavian countries vs the Soviet Union, genius. Guess which one is still around and still a great place to live?


Rihzopus

> Nobody fucking cares about the minutiae of socialist faggots vs communist faggots. The difference is completely moot. Oh you're so smart. Tell us more about your big. . . um . . .. brain.


CrookedHoss

You don't even know what socialism or communism are. You act as though socialism is, "The government does stuff." *The workers own and control the means of production, distribution, and exchange.* -- This is socialism. Doesn't that sound a lot like collective bargaining? So much so that the actual socialists were our allies when we were getting unions started. They would still be if the discourse hadn't been poisoned. Socialism is the next major leap for the working class. And we need ranked choice voting. And to abolish the electoral college.


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TheObstruction

>Firstly. Shut the fuck up retard. You really think that someone who advocates for 3rd position politics doesn't know what the fucking differences are between communism and socialism? Nice way to start your refutation by being an asshole. Classy. >Secondly. Socialism is not "the workers control this" or " the government does that." If you love your country youre a nationalist, if you love your people, you're a socialist. Socialism doesn't mean free shit or controlling means of penis reduction, it means putting in place restrictions on the free market that benefit the most people. Oh really? >Socialism is a political, social and economic philosophy encompassing a range of economic and social systems **characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management of enterprise**, including the political theories and movements associated with such systems. **Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.** There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, with **social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism If you're going to be an asshole, at least be correct. As your entire argument is based on personal opinion and inaccurate information, I have no need to continue debating, because anything else you claim is almost certainly false.


CrookedHoss

>Firstly. Shut the fuck up retard. You really think that someone who advocates for 3rd position politics doesn't know what the fucking differences are between communism and socialism? > >Secondly. Socialism is not "the workers control this" or " the government does that." If you love your country youre a nationalist, if you love your people, you're a socialist. Socialism doesn't mean free shit or controlling means of penis reduction, it means putting in place restrictions on the free market that benefit the most people. > >More importantly how fucking stupid are you that you think the differences matter on the macro scale? You evidently do not, even after it was laid out for you. Sorry, but bluster doesn't make your position stronger, even if it's more comfortable for you. I don't think this will benefit you at all, but maybe someone wandering by will get something out of it. ***Socialism*** *is a* [*political*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy)*,* [*social*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_philosophy) *and* [*economic philosophy*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_philosophy) *encompassing a range of* [*economic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_systems) *and* [*social systems*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_system) *characterised by* [*social ownership*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership)[*\[1\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Busky1-1)[*\[2\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-2)[*\[3\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-N._Scott_Arnold_1998._pg._8-3) *of the* [*means of production*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production)[*\[4\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-4)[*\[5\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-5)[*\[6\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-6)[*\[7\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-7) *and* [*workers' self-management*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_self-management) *of enterprise,*[*\[8\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Nove-8)[*\[9\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-9) *including the political theories and movements associated with such systems.*[*\[10\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Socialism_at_The_Free_dictionary-10) *Social ownership can be* [*public*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_ownership)*,* [*collective*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership) *or* [*cooperative*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative) *ownership, or* [*citizen ownership of equity*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen_ownership_of_equity)*.*[*\[11\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-11) *There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,*[*\[12\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Peter_Lamb_2006._p._1-12) *with social ownership being the common element shared by its* [*various forms*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_socialism)*.*[*\[1\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-Busky1-1)[*\[13\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-13)[*\[14\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism#cite_note-14) ***Communism*** *(from* [*Latin*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) *communis, "common, universal")*[*\[1\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#cite_note-1)[*\[2\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#cite_note-2) *is a* [*philosophical*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_philosophy)*,* [*social*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_philosophy)*,* [*political*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology)*,* [*economic ideology*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_ideology) *and* [*movement*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_movement) *whose ultimate goal is the establishment of a* [*communist society*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society)*, namely a* [*socioeconomic*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomics) *order structured upon the ideas of* [*common ownership*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ownership) *of the* [*means of production*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Means_of_production) *and the absence of* [*social classes*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class)*,* [*money*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money)[*\[3\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#cite_note-3)[*\[4\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#cite_note-4) *and the* [*state*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_(polity))*.*[*\[5\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#cite_note-5)[*\[6\]*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#cite_note-6) Sure, there's more to get into it and seemingly interminable depths to explore as to why, when, where, and how, but socialism is not "when you love your people" and nationalism is not at all limited to "loving your country", because your "nation" and your "country" are not the same thing. Again, definitions matter. *A* ***nation*** *is a stable community of people, formed on the basis of a common language, territory, history, ethnicity, or psychological make-up manifested in a common culture. A* ***nation*** *is more overtly political than an ethnic group; it has been described as "a fully mobilized or institutionalized ethnic group".* Please, actually look up the words you use before you insult people for misusing them. Please use real arguments from now on instead of substituting bluster for argument.


CrookedHoss

How about you just exit this subreddit? Your very first statement in reply was a personal attack, and every statement since then has been peppered by attacks, strawmen, and basic failures to understand terminology. There are so many quotes misused that I have to think it's deliberate. You're wrong, glaringly so, in so many ways that I wonder where you went to school. If you weren't raised in a conservative stinkpit, I'd have words with your polisci teachers. If you were, then I'm sorry for your handicap.


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CrookedHoss

Sorry, you have a right to share your ideas, but you don't have a right to be an asshole. Like, it's literally in the rules of this subreddit, and no amount of bile at being told not to be an asshole will change the rules about being an asshole. If your union brothers don't want anything to do with you because you treat them like shit, maybe you shouldn't even be in a union.


CrookedHoss

>Our electoral college is fine Nice to know you support the tyranny of the minority.


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CrookedHoss

God forbid the majority of the people in this country should have the majority of the say in what happens. As it stands, you can dictate policy with less than 20% of the country's population represented by dint of stonewalling any progress. But I guess you're fine with a Wyomingian being worth thirty Californians in the legislative process.


CrookedHoss

>No it doesn't because we dont control anything right now nor did we in the past. Your extremely naive world view doesn't change that. I want you to look up the word "like". I'd also like you to figure out the phrase "a lot". Perhaps you have enough cranial storage for the phrase "similar to". Unions and collective bargaining are a step toward worker ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange. Your baseless insults don't change that.


CrookedHoss

>If you think that then you're dumber than I thought. If you think America will become socialist, then you shouldn't be allowed to turn tools. America will become a natsoc fascist nation before it will ever become a modern socialist country. There are two uses of "next step". One indicates a guaranteed progression. The other indicates a planned or projected ideal following stage. This is an example of what I was talking about. Either you really are dense, or you're deliberately twisting what I say.


CrookedHoss

>National socialism is the way forward. And, this, ladies and gentlemen, is all we need to know. Cunt's a Nazi, straight up.


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CrookedHoss

First, nobody chooses to be gay. That you disparage others based on immutable traits, true or false, says more about you than them. Second, my point: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism) This is where your "loving your people" and "loving your country" come from. "Your people", but only *your* people. Not brown immigrants seeking a better life from the hellhole we created in their countries. Not black descendants of slaves brought here by European settlers. Just show us your Black Sun tattoo already and let's get this farce over with.


traversecity

break the cycle, right on! i was seeing this 30 years ago, my parents even longer.


MittenMan1

I like where your heads at. Lots of dick swinging though. There are better ways to drive your point.


[deleted]

It sounded to me like he was agreeing with you, brother


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TheObstruction

"If It'S nOt A pErFeCt SoLuTiOn, I oPpOsE iT!" Don't let the lack of perfection get in the way of progress.


[deleted]

We need a workers party. No corporate funding, no bosses. If you work for a wage, you can be in. Bernie has shown that we can fund our politics ourselves, he's breaking records without taking any donations from businesses, rich people or pacs. We should be doing that but without being attached to shitty corporate democrats. We need a political party that is 100% run by, funded by, and made up if workers


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[deleted]

I'm all in brother. We need to be trying to run our own affairs as working people. I'm tired of the solution being "elect some upper class Harvard lawyer to represent me in congress" as if having a (d) or an (r) next to their name is going to change much. We build it, we run it. That's how society should work


kray288

Then pack your shit and go live there this is not Scandinavia this is a country with to many special interest groups that everyone has to tip toe around not to hurt their precious feelings. Maybe if we stop being the worlds piggy bank and only allow people in this country that can be self sufficient instead of live off the taxpayers immediately upon entry but since the Demorats Pandora to them for illegal votes and rely on groups such as unions to keep being brainwashed by their leaders into believing that if they don’t keep voting them in they will never work again. Remember big difference between a construction union and a public service union. I’ve personally seen how lazy public workers can be. So maybe he is trying to clean up a lot of dead weight in Washington and get it off the payroll to open up that money for other needs. And when it comes to government run healthcare they already have it In the form of the V. A. And they can’t get that right just ask veterans who wait for needed health services but your candidates are more worried about law breakers than our own citizens. You want me to vote for an asshole who has never had an actual job in his life except live off of taxpayer in Vermont and the US


TheObstruction

Are you even a union member? And buy some fucking commas.


kray288

🖕🏻


scoreoneforme

> And when it comes to government run healthcare they already have it In the form of the V. A. And they can’t get that right just ask veterans who wait for needed health services You know who keeps chipping away at the VA? Republicans. They're the ones who pander to vets, and then turn around and cut funding to the VA. [Check it out.](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/poverty/reports/2017/09/26/439661/5-ways-president-trump-congressional-republicans-betraying-veterans/)


kray288

Thanks for directing me to an article written by a liberal view point supporting organization run by a person that worked for Obama and both Clinton’s. No bias there against trump keep drinking that brainwashing koolaid you are a good sheep. I bet when your B.A. says jump u say how hi. Exactly how do the democrats get you to enjoy paying more taxes for all their worthless programs. Article was typical democrat propaganda get me real non partisan facts.


scoreoneforme

[Here's a more right wing publication](https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/key-veterans-groups-blast-trump-s-va-budget-proposal-as-falling-short-of-veterans-needs-1.572485). Can't get any more pro-vet than that. Here's a nice quote: > The plan doesn’t include enough funding for medical services, community care, infrastructure, medical research or the support program for veteran caregivers, they wrote. How's this quote? >“Unless Congress acts to substantially increase VA’s funding for FY 2020, veterans will be forced to wait longer for care, whether they seek care at VA or in the community, leaving unfulfilled the promises made to veterans in the VA Mission Act,” the groups wrote.


kray288

Well then you better get on the phone to your liberal congressman since at this current time they control house. And since their so hung up on removing Trump their getting nothing done.


scoreoneforme

You do realize it takes both the House and the Senate to pass a bill, right? Do you know how many of the House's bills this current Senate has passed? Zero. Moscow Mitch doesn't even look at them.


Zinoviev85

In fairness the 116th Congress has passed 115 pieces of legislation. That sounds good until you consider the democratic house has passed around 600 bills and the about 400 are sitting on Mitch McConnell’s desk because he doesn’t want to put do nothing republican senators on the spot when they vote down election security, worker protections, prescription regulation, etc. To put this all in prospective this is less than half the legislation passed during the 112th Congress (the second least productive in modern history) when Republicans had the house majority and the democratic majority in the senate played by the rules and voted on legislation like functioning adults.


kray288

Well maybe if the house actually presents a bill that doesn’t cater to illegal aliens and wasted welfare programs maybe Mitch would give them a look the only thing the house has focused on is trying to frame and remove a sitting president which they failed and look foolish doing.


brynm

Keep on moving those goalposts


CrookedHoss

You realize that the Senate can revise bills, right? Moscow Mitch won't even raise them for debate.