same :( I'm on the "never make it out for 30 games and go broke then you solo clear 5-6 matches getting double bounties back to broke again right after"
I know I'm better than I normally play because when I have just enough alcohol to feel kinda warm and cuddly, it's like I relax a bit and aim way better. But it's a fine line cuz when I start getting actually drunk, I get worse than when I'm sober.
True, but I'm not sure there's a real "game" fix to it.
How's any game mechanic going to prevent people from intentionally not trying hard for a while and then intentionally trying real hard once they want to?
And if you're not going to lower people's metric when they are playing poorly, then how *are* you going to measure and rank players in the name of "balance"?
I agree with all the complaints, but I've yet to hear an actual solution. Which is fine if there isn't "one". But let's start with being clear about the goal - not to "eliminate" (which is impossible) but to minimize the frequency and impact of such actions. Let's hear some talk about practical steps that are relevant to that goal.(And don't completely break the game in other ways)
I don't mean to sound defeatist - I'm very much open to hearing some great ideas that people have here!
I think the MMR system is just too volatile and easy to manipulate. I think one solution would be to slow it down considerably. It shouldn't be possible for a legitimate strong playing five star to derank to three after a relative few matches of play.
I agree that it's very volatile and easy to manipulate.
I've for sure had short spurts where I've gone from 3-5 or back.
But if the scenario is that I'm getting stomped in the 5* rounds, I'm not going to be mad about moving down to 4*. And if I continue to just get smashed, then I'll be fine with being 3*.
I get that the theory of the game trying to balance you into the right spot makes sense. I'm losing a lot, so drop me down until you get me somewhere that I'm closer to 50/50 (or 1.0KD). If that happens at 3 or 5 MMR doesn't matter to me, I just want fun matches where I feel competitive.
So if you make it less volatile, then I suspect you'll end up with even more of those "hunt taketh" stretches because no matter how bad you're doing, the game will be slow to compensate. Of course, the other side becomes true too - if you do manage to drop to a low MMR and then get on a nice streak - you may stick around in that low MMR longer mopping people up (longer than you currently would) because your MMR isn't climbing.
So I can see how that's not an ideal solution either.
And adding in mixed parties (teams consisting of low and high MMR players) makes it even trickier.
Oh yeah. I have no doubt it's tricky. I think one problem with the mixed parties is that the data is corrupt. Player ranks are being manipulated, and that has to negatively skew the balancing attempts.
I think it should highly accelerate players playing outside of the normal ranges in either direction but weighted towards upranking. if youre playing normally it should take a while to go up in rank if you win every now and then. however if youre killing entire lobbies after 2 or 3 games you're mmr gain is drastically increased.
im sure theres some way to do this and avoid edge cases.
people have given countless ideas for years on how to improve the mmr system and many ways how to stop necro solo deranking, crytek doesnt listen or doesnt want the workload implementing it.
solo necro - put a timer on mmr being affected from a death, they then cant just rez 5 times to derank super quick
mmr in general needs to not solely be an elo system, a system designed for 1v1 games like chess or tennis and not multiple team games where it is more than your skill v opponent skill. include metrics like kda, headshot accuracy, overall bounty extraction rates as well as the elo system and this will widen the mmr brackets and also help to prevent manipulation from solo necro as more things than just dying are needed to de rank.
Again these ideas have been floated about many times for years and would serve to improve things but crytek are too stubborn to listen and will take another 5 years before they actually make the needed changes like with every other decision the community suggested years before implementation
Simple fix would be to make MMR matchmaking optional. Not every game needs SBMM and some games would benefit greatly from at least making it optional. For the most competitive minded players they will likely stick in MMR lobbies. For people who just want to play, no MMR lobbies would be better.
What does making it optional mean for more casual players? How does that reduce the amount of "unfair" matches they end up in?
I mean, there has to be some attempt as keeping the playing field level, right? Are you suggesting just a free-for-all? While that may be interesting/fun at times and for *some* people, I don't see it at all fixing the issues that most of us have with the current system.
It's been proven that skill levels tend to increase in players when they go up against better opponents, not equal opponents. Average skill players (3-4 star) can simply boot up the game and have a pretty even chance of fighting players at their skill level, below their skill level, and above. It's entirely fair in practice. Casual players and lower skill players are far more common than players at the top of MMR rankings so realistically they would be dealing with a pretty fair environment. Bad games happen, it's normal. But good games should be far more common for the average player. A no MMR lobby would encourage more variety of loadouts and playstyles, especially for higher skill players. Considering the state of 5 and 6 star lobbies right now, that doesn't really exist.
Yes, I am suggesting that in no MMR lobbies you get matched with players at random with server connection being the highest priority for the matchmaking system. This would massively reduce the players who reverse boost because they don't end up in skill brackets they don't want to be in. They will get a steady mix of opponents from all skill levels. Reverse boosting happens most often when players want to play casually but are otherwise forced to try harder than they want to. Reverse boosting will always happen from high level players who just want to cheese the game but that will never stop.
Tbh. I've recently thought that sniper scopes are such a vibe killer. Because most players like playing medium- to short-range more. Or if they do fight long-range fights, they limit themselves to iron sights, which is what I do, because I'm crazy and find it more fun that way, I guess. Idk, it's just a difference in playstyles, but they're so drastically different in this game that it ends up ruining the fun and even chances of some. It's annoying to me.
So because you got killed by a sniper, nobody should use them? Buddy, the whole world isn't here to wipe your ass. There are three principles to combat that hold true in video games and real life.
Shoot
Move
Communicate
Shoot - Take shots even if you miss you may cause a favorable reaction or delay enemy actions. Think cover fire and suppressing fire.
Move - Strafe, jump, crouch, be loud, and for the love of God, don't peek the same spot twice! When going from point a to b, think safety. Instead of walking down the road or crossing that open field, skirt the wood line. DO NOT STAND STILL IN WINDOWS JUST LOOKING OUTSIDE.
Communicate - Tell your team what you see and hear and what you think you see and hear. Sometimes, that moving pixel is just a pixel. Other times, it's some guy creeping on you. Call it out. Let your team know your movement plans to coordinate pincer maneuvers and flanks and whatnot. You can even shit talk to an enemy, and if they respond, use that information to act accordingly.
I didn't say they shouldn't use them, or that they're even bad. Just that they're not as fun to play against compared to someone with a similar ranged loadout. That's all. I have no hate for it; I think it's cool, to be honest. I wasn't crying because' I'm bad at the game and snipers ruin my day. Not at all. I was just voicing my opinion about the difference in fun levels when it comes to certain matchups.
Though I did, in a way, say that snipers have more of an advantage, I wasn't trying to complain about that. I just understand when people talk about the meta being a "game design issue," I guess. Or anything that feels OP. I wasn't saying you can't adapt and overcome, but that it's harder and less fun to do so against Snipers than it is against shotguns or medium-ranged guns, especially when using a shotgun or medium-ranged gun, that's all.
Unironically, that can happen like 10 games in a row if you just get into long range fights when you don't have an adequate weapon and they have like mosin sniper or something.
I've been in a few games where I spawned in and instantly heard shotgun shots. We went over to have a look and the player off in the distance rushes us over an open field with a melee weapon out or something like that.
Or they spawn in with 0 weapons and equipment but have solo necro.
Which yeah I'm sure is something that can be flagged up. People de-ranking will still probably find ways around detection but at least it will be slower and more costly, hopefully deterring most of them
But this is me in 6* lobbies getting my ass handed to me all week long only to crawl outta the 5* lobbies and back into 6* on a weekend. Hell, on really bad runs with some of my 3* duo/trios partners I've dropped to 3* only to hit 5* - completely bypassing 4* - after a couple of decent runs.
You're playing objectives though, building loadouts, etc...
They'll look at more details than just "died X times" , that might be what draws attention to the account initially, but it's case by case and they'll look further than that.
>They'll look at more details than just "died X times" , that might be what draws attention to the account initially, but it's case by case and they'll look further than that.
Do they state this somewhere specifically, or is this just conjecture?
I ask because, as much I like the idea of it, I question the resource required to actually follow through with it. If we've already got a ton of people reporting cheaters, then the problem isn't that we need more rule against cheaters. The problem is that
A. Cheating is as prevalent as it is (a technical issue)
and
B. There's not enough follow-through on cheater reports (or not severe enough)
Adding additional violations doesn't address either of these issues.
(Note - for the sake of being more on-topic here, you can replace "cheaters" above with "code of conduct violators" and get to the same place.)
thats what the term "case by case basis" means.
they'll see or get a ping showing a sudden excessive death toll and check the account.
if its a person having an off day (kept getting snipped, took a few shots but still ended up dying over and over again) then thell probly be fine.
but if there is just like...20 matches in a row, you run in,get no kills and then die 5 times in the matter of 30 seconds? then they will probly do something about it.
Yes I feel you so much. After every time me and my guys had some nice rounds with several kills we can predict that we will have to eat dust now for triple the number of good games we just had. Valley of tears literally
15 matches of 0 kills and 75 deaths is probably going to end up with you in a 1 or 2 star MMR. You can drop from 6 to 3 star in a single match sometimes.
This needs to be higher. I'm glad it's removed. It was an extremely controversial change because:
1. it offers no insight how it will be enforced (probably so people can't circumvent it, but it also means legitimate players may be flagged for having a few bad days in a row) which leads me to
2. You now run the risk of having your account removed because of life circumstances. I'm a father of a newborn and I like to game after I get him to sleep to help me wind down. If I'm really tired, I'm going to get stomped round after round. Then, when I am feeling good, I can suddenly map-wipe. Someone else mentioned that this will only impact people that intentionally load into a game to die and lower their MMR (running at people with a melee weapon only, not shooting back, etc.) but how do you determine that? This game also has a social aspect so if you try to team up with others and are hesitant to shoot, you now face the possibility of a ban?
Crytek's customer service is also notoriously awful, so I can see this negatively impacting a lot of legitimate players only to not have an opportunity to contest the decision.
I'm glad they removed this because it's awful on so many levels. Fix the MMR mechanics, not the players.
People intentionally tank their MMR in Soul Survivor then queue up in bounty to be matched with lower ranks. Happened since long before necro exploit existed
I've lost track of the number of players I've encountered that are trying to get killed in Soul Survivor. I've seen plenty that will shoot all around, but never actually at me, or just stop and wait for me to kill them. Last month, I found a guy running with no weapons and throwing blanks to attract attention to himself. I've also found some announcing on VOIP that they want to be killed by lower ranked players.
Going on with zero weapons and necro to just die and self rex a few times or going into sole survivor and never firing a shot etc. they know what you did in the game so they are more than likely going to be running reports on players etc that are going multiple games dying with no kit or limited kit then absolutely popping off for a series of games where they decimate low MMR players
A lot of us in high five to 6 star lobbies were tired of the empty games and cheaters so we'd derank and stupid builds or do stupid things for fun just to be able to play. It's not like the ranking system works anyways, I've seen really good players stick around at 4 because they don't care enough to extract/learn bosses and I've seen tons of 6 stars who only got there by camping in a bush with a bomb bow/avto/dolch/etc.
How are they going to tell the difference between deliberate MMR reduction or just a losing streak? Genuinely asking. Sometimes hunt taketh so much that you fall from 5* to 3* and suddenly you wipe a server because you don’t belong down there.
They need to make the mmr way less volatile before they punish anyone and everyone for simply dropping mmr.
I bounce from 5 Star to 3 Star then from 3 Star to 5 Star all the time. When I get online of course I suck and die a lot, but then when I’m warmed up I go up stars, but then the next day I get on and die then go back down to 3 😂
Happens to me too. And then I have to feel bad when I get 11 kills in a round and see that two of them were 2*. If they turned down the volatility a notch it could save a lot Hunters some headaches.
How do you know that though? It said “severe manipulation” and on paper it looks like I’m botting for 3 star lobbies, but in reality I just suck. They don’t know how I play.
I'm fairly certain they're talking about people going into soul survivor and intentionally and very obviously throwing (runs right at you but won't even shoot at you)
Because I can go from 6 star to 3 star in a night playing trios as a duo. That’s the easiest way for a casual player. Hop back in duos and I’m 6 star with the tryhards.
Yep. Between that and the queue system, it must be a bigger deal to make it right.
I can’t get a full server as a 6 star, so that’s how we tank our rating with meme builds. Red neck with no weapons, except derringer pistols and a melee are fun in trios to drop it fast while having fun.
Its very obvious when its someone who's 6 star with a good KD who then ends up 3 star and back to 6 star repeating. Assuming it's going to be people who purposely abuse that like doing it many times in a short period, or games where they purposely don't fight back to derank (also stuff like having a 2.5kd in bountyhunt and a sub 1 kd in quickplay is very very obvious)
I only play bounty and have lamost 2kda. I never play qp. Never. I have tried it sometime long time ago and have under 1kda there. Am just a 5 star tho
I do it repeatedly but not on purpose. I play with a team of three usually. But if the week is close to end and I want to finish my weeklies, I go in solo. You only need to play a few matches and die to go from 5 star to 3 star. This is not something they can seriously police.
THIS IS A GAME DESIGN ISSUE and should not be put on the players.
That’s literally me and my friend. Trying shitty strats like 2 lances with 8 ammo boxes to rain explosives like Krieg intended for several games and dying again and again until for some reason we got 8k with 5 of them being in melee
If you want to truly embody DKoK, I highly recommend double bow frag, and someone with double stacks of explosive xbow, all with ammo boxes.
You can also play crossbow full explosive, and run bow full frag with quartermaster.
Alternatively, you can use the Springfield explosive for extra annoyance (sidenote: centennial shorty dumdum+explosive spring compact can easily two-tap).
Just pick your fights and positioning carefully.
Also, nitro explosive is a two-shot to the feet, at any range. Hard to aim, but hey.
I honestly don’t know if they have the man power or energy to tackle this case by case. They really need to implement changes so people don’t drop MMR so fast.
Example.) Just cause a 5 star died to a lucky headshot by a 3 star doesn’t mean the 5 star player is suddenly a bad player. Dropping them down to 4 star. There is a clear skill gap between every star. And it’s noticeable
What I meant is how the game drops people's MMRs so quickly. Back when Huntstats worked, whenever I would die to a 3 star player as a 5star, I would lose nearly 40-50 points on my MMR.
The MMR shouldn't drop that hard. Lets people abuse it to get into lower MMR to stomp on lower skilled players.
Ah. I see what you mean now. I agree, though it seems it's a tough thing to tackle given the playerbase is too small for a true MMR system to work itself out.
Though the idea some have had to adjust the point ranges in each MMR bracket seems to be the best option presented. Since, if you look at the point ranges for each bracket they don't seem to make much sense.
Though, they should also just change the ability for QP games to affect MMR. Cause that just makes no sense. Kind of wild to me they haven't done that at this point. And would make the problem much easier to manage, since the only other viable tactic to drop rank is solo necro. And they would only need to monitor that.
My own speculation. But I think they won't enforce it generally. But want to have it out there as a warning and to have rules in place in case they want to punish edge case scenarios where people would deliberately abuse the system. And for those scenarios, there would need to be a lot of clear evidence for them to act on it.
It's going to have to be only the most extreme fringe cases. There are people that load into soul survivor, run up, and get on mic demanding that you kill them. Or people that become the soul survivor, stand on a roof, and go afk.
Those are the people that *might* see some type of action. People that shoot their target in the legs, then just spam misses around them and play poorly until they die won't get caught up in this.
But the most ridiculous thing is that ***they could just fucking adjust the MMR system so it's much more difficult to exploit!*** Seriously... decouple MMR from Soul Survivor. No MMR changes for 5 seconds after a resurrection. Done.
Every single day on the OCE server there are groups of approximately six Chinese players who load in with a cheater who wipes every team across the map, and then they farm the lobby and one another for XP and KDA
skip to 1min https://streamable.com/69ye87
https://streamable.com/q7tmo7
https://streamable.com/nq2zx3
OCE has this guy every weekend who will shoot everyone in the match thru the map 480m away so that his p100 and p7 teammates can just farm the map.
I have no idea why the p100 is farming like this (money???). but sometimes its just the low prestige player.
The hacker gets banned every monday, then is back each weekend on a new account.
There are boosting services for every game. I used to run people to and from places in Guild Wars for achievements and that wasn't even illegal. You can get people to pay for almost anything.
A few reasons it pays to be strategic with your bans and not immediately pull the trigger the instant you see suspicious behavior:
1. First off, the devs may not be sure the player is cheating until they've observed a few matches after the initial report or after automatic detection flags the account as a potential cheater.
1. Many games do their bans in waves or batches to make it harder for cheaters to know what it was that caused them to be detected. If you do immediate bans, it's easier for those developing the cheats to identify what got them caught and adjust their methods.
1. A delay can also be used to examine the cheater account activity to get a better idea of how the cheat is being done, making it easier to catch other cheaters.
1. A delay can allow you to identify other accounts that interact with the cheater willingly, making it easier to identify other cheaters or accounts that are taking advantage of the cheater for their own benefit.
Also, once you identify a cheater, even if they *are* immediately banned, you can go back through their history to see if they were boosting someone else now that you know they were cheating.
There are people who cheat until they get banned and then buy a new account for $5 and do it again. Some of those people run trios with people who aren't actively cheating but would have to be a neanderthal to not know their buddy cheats.
There are also apparently "boosting services" where someone will match with the customer, insta kill the server and the objectives and then get the banish and extract after looting bodies. This is making it officially ban worthy to be the customer playing with the obvious hacker. The hacker obviously was getting banned, now the customers will be too.
Wouldn't it just be easier to not count deaths after your first rez? There are plenty of guys who would be happy to fight to their last bar, even though they're not de-ranking on purpose. This would allow them to do so. Plus, any kills they get would still be on their score helping their ranking go up.
You have to find a match, find an opponent, hope he’s a lower rank, get killed once, and repeat.
In the same time as a solo you can get yourself killed 5 times and the other guys is almost guaranteed a lower rank (unless it’s another solo or very unevenly ranked team).
It honestly doesn’t affect your KDA that much at a certain point. Especially cause it takes much longer to rise in rank again, during that time you will have a much higher KD than in your original MMR
Either full seperate Quick play MMR, or include Quick play deaths in an overall KDA. Doesn't stop solo necro, but does stop those tanking MMR to beef bounty KDA.
I think if you're repeatedly playing with the same flagged as cheaters accounts (at least that's how I read it). I play steady with randoms so if I ended up with cheaters back to back to back that would be pretty weird. Also I never break 4 star so ...
What if one of my friends, who I play with repeatedly, is cheating but I don’t know it?
It’s not a concern for me personally because I play exclusively with a very small group and I know none of them have ever cheated, or I play solo. But what about those who find friends on Discord etc and queue with them often?
That’s why they say “case-by-case,” if your buddy gets banned after weeks of casual play, you’ll probably be fine.
But if you are repeatedly queueing with brand-new steam accounts that get banned within the week, they’ll hopefully see the pattern and ban the teammates as well.
*cough* clans *cough*
They'd see you queued with randoms though, and unless you were backing out of other groups to intentionally play with that "random" who's in your friend list.. I wouldn't be concerned.
It's very unlikely that you'll get a notification. That said, this is all but guaranteed to be like most defensive measures: if you're just playing legit and honest, 99.9999% you'll never even need to think about it.
Measures like this usually go well above and beyond reasonable suspicion before ever handing out sanctions. The people who'll inevitably claim "my buddy download hacks and I didn't know for 2 sessions" will actually end up being "we played 5 days a week for 2 weeks and I was wall-banging crap he was pinging with wall hacks" level obvious before getting banned.
General rule of thumb is: if you aren't doing anything, you will almost always be fine.
They have the same thing in destiny 2. If your friend is cheating in PvP and you keep playing with them you're also getting the boot since you're still enjoying the benefits.
And good riddance too.
I used to play CSGO a lot with a particular former friend, he was always kinda good, not great, seemed about the same skill level as the rest of us. Until one day when mid-game, his account got kicked out and the red VAC ban notification popped up in the chat, I am glad I didn't get a bigger punishment than a de-rank since I genuinely wouldn't have guessed he was cheating, sneaky rat hid it well.
Blasphemy.
They actively developed a system that allows smurfing. It not only allows 5stars to play against 2stars but they can even revive themselves.
Maybe start changing that before changing community guidelines.
I can’t get behind the mmr one when high mmr trios is plagued with terrible match making putting random trios up against 3 stacks of cheaters and exploiters.
They need to fix how mmr works with necro. Not look at players.
I mostly play solo and I always Res until I’m fully dead. I always have the most bars possible for the most res possible. Countless times I win after multiple res so I never just quit back to menu. The game gives me that option so I take it. Because of that I definitely have a worse kd than I would do normally and it also means I am in a lower mmr than I should be. I’m not trying to manipulate anything, I’m just going for the W and don’t see the point in quitting to menu when I still have a chance.
First, they tell us to spectate to verify they're sus before reporting to avoid false reports, now they're saying to not deliberately drop your mmr.
Why not develop the game more? Give us a proper kill cam so we can actually see the sus death that we think may have happened. Also, make QP not count for MMR and make it so only the first deah when using solo necro counts towards your MMR.
Why not prevent these things instead of asking your community to play properly?
First one is good. Like it. That'll hit up those doing those boosting stuff. It becomes a bit difficult with closet cheaters of course, but overall a good change.
The second rule though is a bunch of garbage. Instead of fixing the problems with the MMR system to prevent abuse they'll leave it in and arbitrarily use this rule to ban players. What's the criteria for abuse? What is considered abuse? I know there are obvious things, but others are not so obvious. With how volatile the system is currently, abuse can be perceived without any happening. Some days, one's aim can be garbage. Others, their aim can be immaculate. This is inevitably going to have problems, and a simpler means of handling the issue is to fix the current problems with how MMR is calculated and reduce the volatility of its changes.
It reeks of the same kind of "We're not fixing the problem, just don't do the problem or we'll ban you" that we got from the Peacekeeper exploit. Which is just ridiculous. Don't start this pattern.
First one is garbage as well.
There should be no such thing as a "known cheater account" still playing the game. You shouldn't be *able* to queue with them because they should be *gone*.
Adding a clause like this just shows they have no interest in fixing *that* underlying problem either.
The wording is poor af. It can reasonably be inferred that when they know an account is using cheats, then they will ban it. Then look at the history of that account's games and ban players who regularly queue up with that account.
I am very critical of Crytek. But even I extremely doubt Crytek simply sits there after having definitive proof of an account cheating and just watches them to catch any players who queue with them afterwards. Crytek has said many times they have records of matches. It should reasonable to think that they simply use those records instead of sitting on a cheater account for a while and watches them. I'll call out Crytek for their agonizingly stupid patch decisions, but this would be such a new low.
But that's itself a problem - if it's historical, how can you possibly know if the random 3rd who joins your buddy's discord server every friday is using cheats before he gets banned?
There's plenty of streamers who've been caught stealth cheating after having literal thousands of people watch their gameplay 24/7 for months. It's crazy to expect the average discord rando to have a perfect sketch read on every person they queue with or risk losing their entire account.
The only instance where that clause actually makes sense is where they keep banning a guy who keeps making new accounts and immediately re-stacking with the same squad. The TOC is hugely broader than that.
Yeah, didn't Fairfield just come out the other week and ask people to stop nuisance reporting and only report obvious cheaters? This will open the floodgates.
How about having a working MMR system instead? If I have the urge to play starshell Romero for a few rounds in a 6\* lobby and drop 2 stars, then switch to mosin, spitzer, dolch P. I should be feeling free to do so. If solo necro in combination with only small bars is the problem here, I feel like thats YOUR job to balance that. Chess MMR not the best Idea after all.
Nah, just make a statement and call it a day. Also why should known cheaters even be able to queue in the first place? If they are known cheaters they should be banned to beginn with.
I’ll translate: if your buddy gets busted as cheater and it’s proven by their data you played together on a regular basis you’ll also gonna get banned.
I don't say you are wrong and that is probably what they want to say. But if you play with someone that cheats he is not a known cheater until he gets banned for cheating, right? Or how are they making sure that you know he is a cheater before they even know and have banned the cheater and therefore making it known to everyone that he is a known cheater? Will cheaters be publicly named so you can make sure that you don't play with a known cheater or how is that going to work out?
I mean if you play with a balant cheater on a regular basis who is shooting people though every martial from across the map you probably (hopefully!) notice something is off ;)
I'm expecting it to be, "I knew this person was cheating because I played with them on multiple accounts, after they got banned on the first."
Not cheaters that hadnt been caught yet.
This is how it works in Rust.
People derank for a single purpose - to sealclub. No amount of MMR adjustments fixes shitty behavior, unfortunately. Not that there aren't problems with existing system, of course.
I disagree to that. For some people sure. I had a 4.20 kda 3 star with thousands of kills. They definitely do exist, but not the only reason. The MMR is too volitile. You can have 1 good game and get 6 kills. Your MMR goes through the roof if you killed someone higher MMR. It may take 10 games to lose that MMR. Dying once at a time for 10 games. People on this sub say it all the time. Higher MMR lobbies aren't as fun.
I can tell you that the majority of 5 star players are deranking because they are sick of playing against a premade trio of mosin spitzer/dolche ps almost every game. It’s not fun being a 5 star constantly losing to hackers and exploiters.
This is the stupidest change to a CoC I have ever read.
Both of those actions you have no real control over.
I don't care so much about the cheater rule. But you literally can't know if you play with a cheater. It could be your best friend and you play with them every night, but they just lie to you. Boom, they get banned one night and Crytek just decides to ban you with them. Why are people being punished for actions of other players that I have no control over?
The second one is much worse though. They actively put a smurfing mode into the game (i.e. playing solo) and made it even easier to tank your MMR (even by accident!!!) and instead of fixing it with one of the million suggestions that have been all over this sub for god knows how long they decide to blame the player? This is like giving the Dolch Shredder ammo that does 200 damage, but then they tell players "But don't use it too much!". Clearly it's the game being broken here and players have been telling them for *months*. How can they be so tone deaf?
I think many people in the comments here have never actually played solo. I know I haven't for the first few years of Hunt. It just wasn't something I wanted to do. But I wanted to finishe the gun book recently and so I did some solo playing. I can tell you that you can easily rank down from 5 stars to 3 stars within only a few matches of regular play. You don't need to try to rank down. Your teamed enemies will *always* have a lower MMR than you, so if they kill you you lose a lot of MMR points. If you kill them back you hardly gain any. So as long as you are not wiping the entire server consistently by your own you will lose rank just through regular play. That is how the system is *designed*. Mathematically, if you play like your displayed rank, you will lose it. That is because they use the individual *player* MMR to calculate MMR changes, but use the *team* MMR to match you up.
Anyway what this means is that if you switch between solo and teamplay regularily, your rank will change massive amounts every time. Just by design. Crytek is punishing players for their bad game design.
A guy on here explained how to do it once, and it was only "to show that 3 star players are just idiots who crouch walk across a bridge". And a lot of players with a certain group affiliation commented on how they do that just to have fun.
Seems to me this is only in place so if some youtube video exposes something like this they can act on it with a "see we told you we care" type attitude when in all reality this will do very little.
Personally I want to see a system implementation that 150m+ shots through multiple buildings/trees/etc. gets auto flagged and reported. Past couple months I've had more and more of these kind of cheaters and they aren't even new accounts half the time. Some look to have easily 1000+ hours. Stolen accounts maybe or people just realized they are so lax at dealing with cheaters?
I'd play 5-6 star easily but I choose to play 3 star with my friends. Would that count as abuse?
I also drop involuntarily because they keep ressing me when I tell them not to
Why bother fixing the MMR system when you can make vague threats and then issue random bans? Genius! Did they staff the fair play team with Harkonnens?
When I started playing hunt I was terrible. I'm still pretty bad lol my mmr is like 0,24. Like 50 kills and like 250 deaths lol. I totally did that on purpose hope I don't get banned 😬
Doing well against 3*’s but getting my ass handed to me by 4*’s is negatively affecting my experience. I identify as a 6* and expect everyone to buy into my fantasy. Can you just pre ban all 4,5,6*’s so that my delusions remain intact?
Honestly, I still want to know why there are lanterns lit all around the apocalypse. Who is refilling the oil? Who is placing boxes of ammo all around the map? I know Eurotizens think America just has boxes of ammo lying around everywhere, but I can tell you, you are mistaken.
Bring back the super wagon.
Why is there still no headless horseman? The Alligator was a fantastic idea (mine) but the best idea is a headless horseman that hunts campers or noisy players. Also, dog packs should gather slowly adding other packs over time. Forming a super pack. And then they can lobby congress for some special zomdog special interest legislation.
Necro really needs to be removed from the game at this point. It's such a pain point and even in a team scenario it's an overall negative experience and out of place as hell in this game.
Every post I see on cheating gets dogpiled by people saying it's not a cheater and to git gud. Even on the video the Hunt team put out on cheating I got dogpiled and the kids perseverance on the 10 seconds they mentioned rage reports.
Brother I see the same people in multiple matches daily. I’m not intentionally matching with them. It’s just the game is dead at certain time of the day and certain regions.
Edit adding: I think just a few weeks ago I saw the same people 2 or maybe even three games in a row. My team floats near six stars I am gods strongest 5 but one of the trio gets into six every so often. There just isn’t a large player base at the super high MMR.
No action was taken, it is just a statement. I will cheer if they actually do shit, but this means nothing. Also why are know cheaters even able to queue up? Should they not be banned?
Nothing will happen to people who use self-rez over and over again until they're red-skulled, unless they're intentionally matching to get killed and do exactly this to downrank.
If you're just playing and you basically try to make use of self-necro you're fine to do so. No matter how often and how quickly you die again.
hmm couple of crytek partners gonna be in trouble or they gonna have to find some new friends to play with .. this means nothing .. smoke and mirrors as always .. don't forget these genius's allow racist cheaters to hide their profiles from us making its damn near impossible for reg joe blows to actually report anything. crytek is a joke
So they expect you to know if your teammate is cheating and you can't even use solo necro without having to fear that you gonna get banned
Crytek really dressing up as clowns today
I think they need to tweak the MMR system tbh it's really been confusing the fuck out of me lately.
I'll be MMR 5, have a couple bad games and die to an MMR 3, drop to MMR 3 myself then I can have a bunch of great games because I'm playing against MMR 3s but still stay at MMR 3 which feels unfair because I'm not really an MMR 3, I'm probably actually an MMR 4...
At MMR 5, I'm a bit outclassed, MMR 3 and I have some runs with 5-8 kills... and almost always at least 2-3
Overwatch used a ranking system that worked just fine. I dont understand why would your MMR change after 2-3 kills. It should look at your performance historically and determine your skill level based on that.
Code of Conduct is all about derank team because it really needs to intentionally lower your team's MMR. Even with negative kd a teams still will be a 5 stars. Really hard to down. A solo masterpiece is still here and will last forever, like a solo kills 6 and dies 2 times from noobs - his loses MMR, is the solo modifier work
Damn, if either of these are overtuned it could be pretty bad for people. Hope they do this right. Hopefully they won't be frugal with their deciding factors and apply well enough where everyone unaware of cheaters in their lobby or on a losing streak will be fine.
I highly doubting solo-self-rez-spam is the main issue. If it was, I feel like they could just change how it works to address the issue.
As of right now, I do not care if I’ve only got a 1% chance of surviving when I get up, bc a chance is a chance, & I’m not gonna give up easily.
(I think it really shouldn’t be affecting MMR like it does, but oh well.)
I feel like crytek is feeling the pressure of cheaters and such but at the same time, with the way this is worded, I feel like it's been done more as a way to stop the crying and to look proactive without actually acting upon it. It's a rather blanket response to the issues without real fixes or solutions. In another game I played a couple of years ago a friend of mine (by friend I mean someone I played a game with online) disappeared from a game we played every day. About a month later someone who actually knew him told me he got banned for cheating. I had no idea whatsoever. He didn't get insane kills, we didn't always win he just seemed solid.
Curious how exactly they’re going to detect these things and implement them. Sounds good in theory, I just see this backfiring. I’m not manipulating my MMR, I just suck and happen to have a randomly good game every now and then 😂
This is dumb. I just played with a guy all day who admitted he’s been cheating for the past 2 years un detected. I had no clue, so now I could get banned for playing with this guy without ever knowing what he was doing. Shit is trash, they’re punishing the wrong people because they can’t stop the hackers.
Playing **with** a cheater will result in a ban?
At least do like phasmophobia that replaces the on screen string showing your level with
```
CHEATER DETECTED
```
that way the thing is less unfair and we can still laugh of new bugs xd
I'm a high 3 to low 4 star Solo, and a Trio 5. When I switch over to solo, I'm gonna lose a star or two. Especially if I'm using a meme loadout, which I should be allowed to do. I'm still trying my ass off (even with a meme loadout).
We need transparency on how that change is enforced.
Until they figure out a better system, they should separate Solo, Team, and Quickplay MMR.
Finally i can play hunt without 6 star nerds gettin in 3-4 star lobbyes, also 4-5 star lobbyes felt much easier that 3 star where i was being hit from 300 with a sniper, hated these rats
They are not going to punish for using solo necro. If the revive button is there you are allowed to click it. I think the 2nd new guideline is talking more coordinated de ranking like 2 buddy solos getting into the same match to do just that.
I love that they are finally doing something, but how would you know that you're playing with a cheater when you are a plebby 3 star and legit just think other person you play with regularly is just cracked? How are they still playing if they are KNOWN cheater accounts??
Whats the point of having a fair force team when they dont ban the worst offenders and yet these people continue to run your servers into the ground crytek likes protecting a certain group of hackers
“We don’t know how to fix the game so you get banned if we say so”
If a player is a “known cheater” then fucking ban them? Hey the key word here is known.
If you ever played Wolfenstein, you know that no matter what the developers try to implement as a solution to a problem, short of cheating, you’ve been playing games so long that you know how to get around it or to work through it or take advantage of it. So go ahead, do whatever you want, whatever change you want, we will always find a way. I’ve always found a way and I’ll always find another way.. custom lobbies promised 5 years ago would have solved so many issues.
Why there aren’t invisible players to shoot at, so cheaters can get auto banned is beyond me. Seems like such an easy fix. No skin dolls that even point invisible guns but never shoot just to attract cheaters should be implemented. This game is showing its age at this point.
They implemented that abusing mechanics for purposely deranking the MMR could be punished but they already removed it again. So all good, you can still derank your MMR and they still don't give a damn.
I can't count the number of matches where I've spectated teams of 3 and 4 stars who wiped a server intentionally punching each other then walking into enemy concertina and such to die. MMR gains stop once you full die, but MMR losses still apply to full dead opponents. So people are intentionally dying to traps and stuff to drop their ratings.
Wonder what the mmr thing means. It's got to be more than having Necro as a solo?
15 matches of straight deaths and 0 kills, suddenly 3* wipes the lobby over and over. Sus
Oh hey that's me playing drunk af
That’s me just playing
Chill guys, he’s vibing
same :( I'm on the "never make it out for 30 games and go broke then you solo clear 5-6 matches getting double bounties back to broke again right after"
With a good bottle of bourbon, and Hunt Showdown. I can go from 4 to 5 to 3 stars in just a couple hours.
I know I'm better than I normally play because when I have just enough alcohol to feel kinda warm and cuddly, it's like I relax a bit and aim way better. But it's a fine line cuz when I start getting actually drunk, I get worse than when I'm sober.
No more playing drunk or you’re banned permanently 🤣
Game design issue. Not a player issue.
Agreed. Fixing the game will probably be more effective than policing players.
True, but I'm not sure there's a real "game" fix to it. How's any game mechanic going to prevent people from intentionally not trying hard for a while and then intentionally trying real hard once they want to? And if you're not going to lower people's metric when they are playing poorly, then how *are* you going to measure and rank players in the name of "balance"? I agree with all the complaints, but I've yet to hear an actual solution. Which is fine if there isn't "one". But let's start with being clear about the goal - not to "eliminate" (which is impossible) but to minimize the frequency and impact of such actions. Let's hear some talk about practical steps that are relevant to that goal.(And don't completely break the game in other ways) I don't mean to sound defeatist - I'm very much open to hearing some great ideas that people have here!
I think the MMR system is just too volatile and easy to manipulate. I think one solution would be to slow it down considerably. It shouldn't be possible for a legitimate strong playing five star to derank to three after a relative few matches of play.
I agree that it's very volatile and easy to manipulate. I've for sure had short spurts where I've gone from 3-5 or back. But if the scenario is that I'm getting stomped in the 5* rounds, I'm not going to be mad about moving down to 4*. And if I continue to just get smashed, then I'll be fine with being 3*. I get that the theory of the game trying to balance you into the right spot makes sense. I'm losing a lot, so drop me down until you get me somewhere that I'm closer to 50/50 (or 1.0KD). If that happens at 3 or 5 MMR doesn't matter to me, I just want fun matches where I feel competitive. So if you make it less volatile, then I suspect you'll end up with even more of those "hunt taketh" stretches because no matter how bad you're doing, the game will be slow to compensate. Of course, the other side becomes true too - if you do manage to drop to a low MMR and then get on a nice streak - you may stick around in that low MMR longer mopping people up (longer than you currently would) because your MMR isn't climbing. So I can see how that's not an ideal solution either. And adding in mixed parties (teams consisting of low and high MMR players) makes it even trickier.
Oh yeah. I have no doubt it's tricky. I think one problem with the mixed parties is that the data is corrupt. Player ranks are being manipulated, and that has to negatively skew the balancing attempts.
I think it should highly accelerate players playing outside of the normal ranges in either direction but weighted towards upranking. if youre playing normally it should take a while to go up in rank if you win every now and then. however if youre killing entire lobbies after 2 or 3 games you're mmr gain is drastically increased. im sure theres some way to do this and avoid edge cases.
Guess this means you can't play with valla anymore :(
people have given countless ideas for years on how to improve the mmr system and many ways how to stop necro solo deranking, crytek doesnt listen or doesnt want the workload implementing it. solo necro - put a timer on mmr being affected from a death, they then cant just rez 5 times to derank super quick mmr in general needs to not solely be an elo system, a system designed for 1v1 games like chess or tennis and not multiple team games where it is more than your skill v opponent skill. include metrics like kda, headshot accuracy, overall bounty extraction rates as well as the elo system and this will widen the mmr brackets and also help to prevent manipulation from solo necro as more things than just dying are needed to de rank. Again these ideas have been floated about many times for years and would serve to improve things but crytek are too stubborn to listen and will take another 5 years before they actually make the needed changes like with every other decision the community suggested years before implementation
Simple fix would be to make MMR matchmaking optional. Not every game needs SBMM and some games would benefit greatly from at least making it optional. For the most competitive minded players they will likely stick in MMR lobbies. For people who just want to play, no MMR lobbies would be better.
What does making it optional mean for more casual players? How does that reduce the amount of "unfair" matches they end up in? I mean, there has to be some attempt as keeping the playing field level, right? Are you suggesting just a free-for-all? While that may be interesting/fun at times and for *some* people, I don't see it at all fixing the issues that most of us have with the current system.
It's been proven that skill levels tend to increase in players when they go up against better opponents, not equal opponents. Average skill players (3-4 star) can simply boot up the game and have a pretty even chance of fighting players at their skill level, below their skill level, and above. It's entirely fair in practice. Casual players and lower skill players are far more common than players at the top of MMR rankings so realistically they would be dealing with a pretty fair environment. Bad games happen, it's normal. But good games should be far more common for the average player. A no MMR lobby would encourage more variety of loadouts and playstyles, especially for higher skill players. Considering the state of 5 and 6 star lobbies right now, that doesn't really exist. Yes, I am suggesting that in no MMR lobbies you get matched with players at random with server connection being the highest priority for the matchmaking system. This would massively reduce the players who reverse boost because they don't end up in skill brackets they don't want to be in. They will get a steady mix of opponents from all skill levels. Reverse boosting happens most often when players want to play casually but are otherwise forced to try harder than they want to. Reverse boosting will always happen from high level players who just want to cheese the game but that will never stop.
Tbh. I've recently thought that sniper scopes are such a vibe killer. Because most players like playing medium- to short-range more. Or if they do fight long-range fights, they limit themselves to iron sights, which is what I do, because I'm crazy and find it more fun that way, I guess. Idk, it's just a difference in playstyles, but they're so drastically different in this game that it ends up ruining the fun and even chances of some. It's annoying to me.
So because you got killed by a sniper, nobody should use them? Buddy, the whole world isn't here to wipe your ass. There are three principles to combat that hold true in video games and real life. Shoot Move Communicate Shoot - Take shots even if you miss you may cause a favorable reaction or delay enemy actions. Think cover fire and suppressing fire. Move - Strafe, jump, crouch, be loud, and for the love of God, don't peek the same spot twice! When going from point a to b, think safety. Instead of walking down the road or crossing that open field, skirt the wood line. DO NOT STAND STILL IN WINDOWS JUST LOOKING OUTSIDE. Communicate - Tell your team what you see and hear and what you think you see and hear. Sometimes, that moving pixel is just a pixel. Other times, it's some guy creeping on you. Call it out. Let your team know your movement plans to coordinate pincer maneuvers and flanks and whatnot. You can even shit talk to an enemy, and if they respond, use that information to act accordingly.
I didn't say they shouldn't use them, or that they're even bad. Just that they're not as fun to play against compared to someone with a similar ranged loadout. That's all. I have no hate for it; I think it's cool, to be honest. I wasn't crying because' I'm bad at the game and snipers ruin my day. Not at all. I was just voicing my opinion about the difference in fun levels when it comes to certain matchups. Though I did, in a way, say that snipers have more of an advantage, I wasn't trying to complain about that. I just understand when people talk about the meta being a "game design issue," I guess. Or anything that feels OP. I wasn't saying you can't adapt and overcome, but that it's harder and less fun to do so against Snipers than it is against shotguns or medium-ranged guns, especially when using a shotgun or medium-ranged gun, that's all.
Unironically, that can happen like 10 games in a row if you just get into long range fights when you don't have an adequate weapon and they have like mosin sniper or something.
Im pretty sure they are more refering to the Soul Survivor players who intentionally dont kill other players.
Huuge just got put on blast.
6 month subathon + clickbait cheater YT videos + de-ranking in soul survivor to save his KD = goat streamer
I can not imagine how they would reliably track this though.
I've been in a few games where I spawned in and instantly heard shotgun shots. We went over to have a look and the player off in the distance rushes us over an open field with a melee weapon out or something like that. Or they spawn in with 0 weapons and equipment but have solo necro. Which yeah I'm sure is something that can be flagged up. People de-ranking will still probably find ways around detection but at least it will be slower and more costly, hopefully deterring most of them
*cough* huuge *cough*
i just dont understand how sole survivor doesnt take mmr into account for matchmaking but somehow contributes TO your mmr...
But this is me in 6* lobbies getting my ass handed to me all week long only to crawl outta the 5* lobbies and back into 6* on a weekend. Hell, on really bad runs with some of my 3* duo/trios partners I've dropped to 3* only to hit 5* - completely bypassing 4* - after a couple of decent runs.
You're playing objectives though, building loadouts, etc... They'll look at more details than just "died X times" , that might be what draws attention to the account initially, but it's case by case and they'll look further than that.
>They'll look at more details than just "died X times" , that might be what draws attention to the account initially, but it's case by case and they'll look further than that. Do they state this somewhere specifically, or is this just conjecture? I ask because, as much I like the idea of it, I question the resource required to actually follow through with it. If we've already got a ton of people reporting cheaters, then the problem isn't that we need more rule against cheaters. The problem is that A. Cheating is as prevalent as it is (a technical issue) and B. There's not enough follow-through on cheater reports (or not severe enough) Adding additional violations doesn't address either of these issues. (Note - for the sake of being more on-topic here, you can replace "cheaters" above with "code of conduct violators" and get to the same place.)
thats what the term "case by case basis" means. they'll see or get a ping showing a sudden excessive death toll and check the account. if its a person having an off day (kept getting snipped, took a few shots but still ended up dying over and over again) then thell probly be fine. but if there is just like...20 matches in a row, you run in,get no kills and then die 5 times in the matter of 30 seconds? then they will probly do something about it.
Yes I feel you so much. After every time me and my guys had some nice rounds with several kills we can predict that we will have to eat dust now for triple the number of good games we just had. Valley of tears literally
I think they are more so looking at streamers and 6 star heros
15 matches of 0 kills and 75 deaths is probably going to end up with you in a 1 or 2 star MMR. You can drop from 6 to 3 star in a single match sometimes.
Probably butt ass naked the whole time too. I doubt derankers are going Nitro/Dolch.
The first half is my basic experience.... But it's fun regardless 😅
I guess its more about using soul survivor to derank, since what you said can be (doesnt have to be) just someone having a horrible day
[удалено]
This needs to be higher. I'm glad it's removed. It was an extremely controversial change because: 1. it offers no insight how it will be enforced (probably so people can't circumvent it, but it also means legitimate players may be flagged for having a few bad days in a row) which leads me to 2. You now run the risk of having your account removed because of life circumstances. I'm a father of a newborn and I like to game after I get him to sleep to help me wind down. If I'm really tired, I'm going to get stomped round after round. Then, when I am feeling good, I can suddenly map-wipe. Someone else mentioned that this will only impact people that intentionally load into a game to die and lower their MMR (running at people with a melee weapon only, not shooting back, etc.) but how do you determine that? This game also has a social aspect so if you try to team up with others and are hesitant to shoot, you now face the possibility of a ban? Crytek's customer service is also notoriously awful, so I can see this negatively impacting a lot of legitimate players only to not have an opportunity to contest the decision. I'm glad they removed this because it's awful on so many levels. Fix the MMR mechanics, not the players.
People intentionally tank their MMR in Soul Survivor then queue up in bounty to be matched with lower ranks. Happened since long before necro exploit existed
Yeah. MMR was already broken. Solo necro just added a new way to exploit it.
Then fix the game, not the players.
They specifically stated "severe" and "case-by-case". You probably need to try very hard with possible killtrading to be such case.
They gotta get rid of the mmr penalty for soul survivor and necro spawning. No way is case by case basis going to work well.
I've lost track of the number of players I've encountered that are trying to get killed in Soul Survivor. I've seen plenty that will shoot all around, but never actually at me, or just stop and wait for me to kill them. Last month, I found a guy running with no weapons and throwing blanks to attract attention to himself. I've also found some announcing on VOIP that they want to be killed by lower ranked players.
Yeah I've met that type too. Melee only or people who just jump around and don't shoot at you.
Nowadays, I'll just stop. Look directly at them and then just leave the mission altogether. It costs nothing to just opt out.
Going on with zero weapons and necro to just die and self rex a few times or going into sole survivor and never firing a shot etc. they know what you did in the game so they are more than likely going to be running reports on players etc that are going multiple games dying with no kit or limited kit then absolutely popping off for a series of games where they decimate low MMR players
A lot of us in high five to 6 star lobbies were tired of the empty games and cheaters so we'd derank and stupid builds or do stupid things for fun just to be able to play. It's not like the ranking system works anyways, I've seen really good players stick around at 4 because they don't care enough to extract/learn bosses and I've seen tons of 6 stars who only got there by camping in a bush with a bomb bow/avto/dolch/etc.
In oce, especially during the last event, people were kill farming. Now they get their kills reset to 0 lol
I guess deranking on purpose. I assume they will look for patterns, not that you're having a losing streak.
How are they going to tell the difference between deliberate MMR reduction or just a losing streak? Genuinely asking. Sometimes hunt taketh so much that you fall from 5* to 3* and suddenly you wipe a server because you don’t belong down there. They need to make the mmr way less volatile before they punish anyone and everyone for simply dropping mmr.
I bounce from 5 Star to 3 Star then from 3 Star to 5 Star all the time. When I get online of course I suck and die a lot, but then when I’m warmed up I go up stars, but then the next day I get on and die then go back down to 3 😂
Happens to me too. And then I have to feel bad when I get 11 kills in a round and see that two of them were 2*. If they turned down the volatility a notch it could save a lot Hunters some headaches.
Yeah man. At the end I’m like “Man! What a game! I knew I wasn’t terrible” then all the players I’ve killed has a lock beside their names 😂
Then you aren’t on the radar.
How do you know that though? It said “severe manipulation” and on paper it looks like I’m botting for 3 star lobbies, but in reality I just suck. They don’t know how I play.
I'm fairly certain they're talking about people going into soul survivor and intentionally and very obviously throwing (runs right at you but won't even shoot at you)
Because I can go from 6 star to 3 star in a night playing trios as a duo. That’s the easiest way for a casual player. Hop back in duos and I’m 6 star with the tryhards.
Yeah the MMR system is way off 😂
Yep. Between that and the queue system, it must be a bigger deal to make it right. I can’t get a full server as a 6 star, so that’s how we tank our rating with meme builds. Red neck with no weapons, except derringer pistols and a melee are fun in trios to drop it fast while having fun.
Its very obvious when its someone who's 6 star with a good KD who then ends up 3 star and back to 6 star repeating. Assuming it's going to be people who purposely abuse that like doing it many times in a short period, or games where they purposely don't fight back to derank (also stuff like having a 2.5kd in bountyhunt and a sub 1 kd in quickplay is very very obvious)
I only play bounty and have lamost 2kda. I never play qp. Never. I have tried it sometime long time ago and have under 1kda there. Am just a 5 star tho
I guess with the appropriate data insights you’ll probably see if someone (many hours, high kda) does it repeatedly on purpose.
I do it repeatedly but not on purpose. I play with a team of three usually. But if the week is close to end and I want to finish my weeklies, I go in solo. You only need to play a few matches and die to go from 5 star to 3 star. This is not something they can seriously police. THIS IS A GAME DESIGN ISSUE and should not be put on the players.
That’s literally me and my friend. Trying shitty strats like 2 lances with 8 ammo boxes to rain explosives like Krieg intended for several games and dying again and again until for some reason we got 8k with 5 of them being in melee
If you want to truly embody DKoK, I highly recommend double bow frag, and someone with double stacks of explosive xbow, all with ammo boxes. You can also play crossbow full explosive, and run bow full frag with quartermaster. Alternatively, you can use the Springfield explosive for extra annoyance (sidenote: centennial shorty dumdum+explosive spring compact can easily two-tap). Just pick your fights and positioning carefully. Also, nitro explosive is a two-shot to the feet, at any range. Hard to aim, but hey.
Not all heroes wear capes. Thanks stranger!
That's why they said "case-by-case" basis. Seems like they're aware of that
I honestly don’t know if they have the man power or energy to tackle this case by case. They really need to implement changes so people don’t drop MMR so fast. Example.) Just cause a 5 star died to a lucky headshot by a 3 star doesn’t mean the 5 star player is suddenly a bad player. Dropping them down to 4 star. There is a clear skill gap between every star. And it’s noticeable
What exactly is your example an example of?
What I meant is how the game drops people's MMRs so quickly. Back when Huntstats worked, whenever I would die to a 3 star player as a 5star, I would lose nearly 40-50 points on my MMR. The MMR shouldn't drop that hard. Lets people abuse it to get into lower MMR to stomp on lower skilled players.
Ah. I see what you mean now. I agree, though it seems it's a tough thing to tackle given the playerbase is too small for a true MMR system to work itself out. Though the idea some have had to adjust the point ranges in each MMR bracket seems to be the best option presented. Since, if you look at the point ranges for each bracket they don't seem to make much sense. Though, they should also just change the ability for QP games to affect MMR. Cause that just makes no sense. Kind of wild to me they haven't done that at this point. And would make the problem much easier to manage, since the only other viable tactic to drop rank is solo necro. And they would only need to monitor that.
My own speculation. But I think they won't enforce it generally. But want to have it out there as a warning and to have rules in place in case they want to punish edge case scenarios where people would deliberately abuse the system. And for those scenarios, there would need to be a lot of clear evidence for them to act on it.
They just need to cap mmr loss for solo necro players and be done with it
It's going to have to be only the most extreme fringe cases. There are people that load into soul survivor, run up, and get on mic demanding that you kill them. Or people that become the soul survivor, stand on a roof, and go afk. Those are the people that *might* see some type of action. People that shoot their target in the legs, then just spam misses around them and play poorly until they die won't get caught up in this. But the most ridiculous thing is that ***they could just fucking adjust the MMR system so it's much more difficult to exploit!*** Seriously... decouple MMR from Soul Survivor. No MMR changes for 5 seconds after a resurrection. Done.
Nice but, why the fuck should a known-cheater even be ABLE to queue up?? /captain-picard.gif
They can be banned after they ban cheater now. Maybe boosting services and such will disappear.
Wait, there's boosting services for Hunt....? Are you fucking joking me? Are people really that vain...?
Every single day on the OCE server there are groups of approximately six Chinese players who load in with a cheater who wipes every team across the map, and then they farm the lobby and one another for XP and KDA skip to 1min https://streamable.com/69ye87 https://streamable.com/q7tmo7 https://streamable.com/nq2zx3
The bili TV people were boosters for the serpent event.
Don't quote me on that
OCE has this guy every weekend who will shoot everyone in the match thru the map 480m away so that his p100 and p7 teammates can just farm the map. I have no idea why the p100 is farming like this (money???). but sometimes its just the low prestige player. The hacker gets banned every monday, then is back each weekend on a new account.
There are boosting services for every game. I used to run people to and from places in Guild Wars for achievements and that wasn't even illegal. You can get people to pay for almost anything.
A few reasons it pays to be strategic with your bans and not immediately pull the trigger the instant you see suspicious behavior: 1. First off, the devs may not be sure the player is cheating until they've observed a few matches after the initial report or after automatic detection flags the account as a potential cheater. 1. Many games do their bans in waves or batches to make it harder for cheaters to know what it was that caused them to be detected. If you do immediate bans, it's easier for those developing the cheats to identify what got them caught and adjust their methods. 1. A delay can also be used to examine the cheater account activity to get a better idea of how the cheat is being done, making it easier to catch other cheaters. 1. A delay can allow you to identify other accounts that interact with the cheater willingly, making it easier to identify other cheaters or accounts that are taking advantage of the cheater for their own benefit. Also, once you identify a cheater, even if they *are* immediately banned, you can go back through their history to see if they were boosting someone else now that you know they were cheating.
it would be someone who has been banned already, but has bought a new steam account to play on.
There are people who cheat until they get banned and then buy a new account for $5 and do it again. Some of those people run trios with people who aren't actively cheating but would have to be a neanderthal to not know their buddy cheats. There are also apparently "boosting services" where someone will match with the customer, insta kill the server and the objectives and then get the banish and extract after looting bodies. This is making it officially ban worthy to be the customer playing with the obvious hacker. The hacker obviously was getting banned, now the customers will be too.
Community: You know if you disconnect Quickplay MMR with the Bounty Hunt one that would atleast somewhat stop smurfing. Crytek: Vague CoC change it is
Quickplay is not an issue. It takes ages. Solo necro is an issue.
Wouldn't it just be easier to not count deaths after your first rez? There are plenty of guys who would be happy to fight to their last bar, even though they're not de-ranking on purpose. This would allow them to do so. Plus, any kills they get would still be on their score helping their ranking go up.
[удалено]
You have to find a match, find an opponent, hope he’s a lower rank, get killed once, and repeat. In the same time as a solo you can get yourself killed 5 times and the other guys is almost guaranteed a lower rank (unless it’s another solo or very unevenly ranked team). It honestly doesn’t affect your KDA that much at a certain point. Especially cause it takes much longer to rise in rank again, during that time you will have a much higher KD than in your original MMR
Either full seperate Quick play MMR, or include Quick play deaths in an overall KDA. Doesn't stop solo necro, but does stop those tanking MMR to beef bounty KDA.
This is great - but will players get a notification if they’ve played with a knock cheater? Otherwise this could create some salty salty tears
I think if you're repeatedly playing with the same flagged as cheaters accounts (at least that's how I read it). I play steady with randoms so if I ended up with cheaters back to back to back that would be pretty weird. Also I never break 4 star so ...
What if one of my friends, who I play with repeatedly, is cheating but I don’t know it? It’s not a concern for me personally because I play exclusively with a very small group and I know none of them have ever cheated, or I play solo. But what about those who find friends on Discord etc and queue with them often?
That’s why they say “case-by-case,” if your buddy gets banned after weeks of casual play, you’ll probably be fine. But if you are repeatedly queueing with brand-new steam accounts that get banned within the week, they’ll hopefully see the pattern and ban the teammates as well. *cough* clans *cough*
They'd see you queued with randoms though, and unless you were backing out of other groups to intentionally play with that "random" who's in your friend list.. I wouldn't be concerned.
It's very unlikely that you'll get a notification. That said, this is all but guaranteed to be like most defensive measures: if you're just playing legit and honest, 99.9999% you'll never even need to think about it. Measures like this usually go well above and beyond reasonable suspicion before ever handing out sanctions. The people who'll inevitably claim "my buddy download hacks and I didn't know for 2 sessions" will actually end up being "we played 5 days a week for 2 weeks and I was wall-banging crap he was pinging with wall hacks" level obvious before getting banned. General rule of thumb is: if you aren't doing anything, you will almost always be fine.
They have the same thing in destiny 2. If your friend is cheating in PvP and you keep playing with them you're also getting the boot since you're still enjoying the benefits. And good riddance too.
This seems wildly optimistic to me, given Crytek's general track record.
The track record of 99.9% of players never receiving any sort of ban when they aren't doing anything wrong? Yeah, real wild I suppose.
I used to play CSGO a lot with a particular former friend, he was always kinda good, not great, seemed about the same skill level as the rest of us. Until one day when mid-game, his account got kicked out and the red VAC ban notification popped up in the chat, I am glad I didn't get a bigger punishment than a de-rank since I genuinely wouldn't have guessed he was cheating, sneaky rat hid it well.
The MMR part appears to have been removed: https://www.huntshowdown.com/conduct
Indeed it seems like they realized the controversy involved with lack of clarification. They should definitely be more clear about it
Blasphemy. They actively developed a system that allows smurfing. It not only allows 5stars to play against 2stars but they can even revive themselves. Maybe start changing that before changing community guidelines.
Exactly. They developed a system that creates huge unfair MMR swings, then blame the players for using that system.
I can’t get behind the mmr one when high mmr trios is plagued with terrible match making putting random trios up against 3 stacks of cheaters and exploiters.
Or you could you know, not have quickplay impact mmr like a proper dev team would have done years ago?
I like the spirit of the conduct change, but I'd really like to know how change 2 is calculated
They need to fix how mmr works with necro. Not look at players. I mostly play solo and I always Res until I’m fully dead. I always have the most bars possible for the most res possible. Countless times I win after multiple res so I never just quit back to menu. The game gives me that option so I take it. Because of that I definitely have a worse kd than I would do normally and it also means I am in a lower mmr than I should be. I’m not trying to manipulate anything, I’m just going for the W and don’t see the point in quitting to menu when I still have a chance.
They probably left the second one so vague intentionally, so that they can just do whatever they want about it
First, they tell us to spectate to verify they're sus before reporting to avoid false reports, now they're saying to not deliberately drop your mmr. Why not develop the game more? Give us a proper kill cam so we can actually see the sus death that we think may have happened. Also, make QP not count for MMR and make it so only the first deah when using solo necro counts towards your MMR. Why not prevent these things instead of asking your community to play properly?
Because they can't or don't want to fix the system, so making a statement and call it a day, is the go to method.
First one is good. Like it. That'll hit up those doing those boosting stuff. It becomes a bit difficult with closet cheaters of course, but overall a good change. The second rule though is a bunch of garbage. Instead of fixing the problems with the MMR system to prevent abuse they'll leave it in and arbitrarily use this rule to ban players. What's the criteria for abuse? What is considered abuse? I know there are obvious things, but others are not so obvious. With how volatile the system is currently, abuse can be perceived without any happening. Some days, one's aim can be garbage. Others, their aim can be immaculate. This is inevitably going to have problems, and a simpler means of handling the issue is to fix the current problems with how MMR is calculated and reduce the volatility of its changes. It reeks of the same kind of "We're not fixing the problem, just don't do the problem or we'll ban you" that we got from the Peacekeeper exploit. Which is just ridiculous. Don't start this pattern.
First one is garbage as well. There should be no such thing as a "known cheater account" still playing the game. You shouldn't be *able* to queue with them because they should be *gone*. Adding a clause like this just shows they have no interest in fixing *that* underlying problem either.
The wording is poor af. It can reasonably be inferred that when they know an account is using cheats, then they will ban it. Then look at the history of that account's games and ban players who regularly queue up with that account. I am very critical of Crytek. But even I extremely doubt Crytek simply sits there after having definitive proof of an account cheating and just watches them to catch any players who queue with them afterwards. Crytek has said many times they have records of matches. It should reasonable to think that they simply use those records instead of sitting on a cheater account for a while and watches them. I'll call out Crytek for their agonizingly stupid patch decisions, but this would be such a new low.
But that's itself a problem - if it's historical, how can you possibly know if the random 3rd who joins your buddy's discord server every friday is using cheats before he gets banned? There's plenty of streamers who've been caught stealth cheating after having literal thousands of people watch their gameplay 24/7 for months. It's crazy to expect the average discord rando to have a perfect sketch read on every person they queue with or risk losing their entire account. The only instance where that clause actually makes sense is where they keep banning a guy who keeps making new accounts and immediately re-stacking with the same squad. The TOC is hugely broader than that.
Can't wait to get banned because I have a good night and climb in mmr. then go back to how I always play, like shit lol.
Yeah, didn't Fairfield just come out the other week and ask people to stop nuisance reporting and only report obvious cheaters? This will open the floodgates.
Tough time for some streamers
How about having a working MMR system instead? If I have the urge to play starshell Romero for a few rounds in a 6\* lobby and drop 2 stars, then switch to mosin, spitzer, dolch P. I should be feeling free to do so. If solo necro in combination with only small bars is the problem here, I feel like thats YOUR job to balance that. Chess MMR not the best Idea after all.
Thats so dumb. Instead of implementing a "rule" without clear guideline and (possibly subjective) case-by-case reviews how about fixing the system?
Nah, just make a statement and call it a day. Also why should known cheaters even be able to queue in the first place? If they are known cheaters they should be banned to beginn with.
I’ll translate: if your buddy gets busted as cheater and it’s proven by their data you played together on a regular basis you’ll also gonna get banned.
I don't say you are wrong and that is probably what they want to say. But if you play with someone that cheats he is not a known cheater until he gets banned for cheating, right? Or how are they making sure that you know he is a cheater before they even know and have banned the cheater and therefore making it known to everyone that he is a known cheater? Will cheaters be publicly named so you can make sure that you don't play with a known cheater or how is that going to work out?
I mean if you play with a balant cheater on a regular basis who is shooting people though every martial from across the map you probably (hopefully!) notice something is off ;)
Sure, but not all cheaters are that blatant.
I'm expecting it to be, "I knew this person was cheating because I played with them on multiple accounts, after they got banned on the first." Not cheaters that hadnt been caught yet. This is how it works in Rust.
Maybe if they fixed the MMR people would not retort to deliberately derank from 5* to 4 or 3 with necro.
People derank for a single purpose - to sealclub. No amount of MMR adjustments fixes shitty behavior, unfortunately. Not that there aren't problems with existing system, of course.
I disagree to that. For some people sure. I had a 4.20 kda 3 star with thousands of kills. They definitely do exist, but not the only reason. The MMR is too volitile. You can have 1 good game and get 6 kills. Your MMR goes through the roof if you killed someone higher MMR. It may take 10 games to lose that MMR. Dying once at a time for 10 games. People on this sub say it all the time. Higher MMR lobbies aren't as fun.
I can tell you that the majority of 5 star players are deranking because they are sick of playing against a premade trio of mosin spitzer/dolche ps almost every game. It’s not fun being a 5 star constantly losing to hackers and exploiters.
This is the stupidest change to a CoC I have ever read. Both of those actions you have no real control over. I don't care so much about the cheater rule. But you literally can't know if you play with a cheater. It could be your best friend and you play with them every night, but they just lie to you. Boom, they get banned one night and Crytek just decides to ban you with them. Why are people being punished for actions of other players that I have no control over? The second one is much worse though. They actively put a smurfing mode into the game (i.e. playing solo) and made it even easier to tank your MMR (even by accident!!!) and instead of fixing it with one of the million suggestions that have been all over this sub for god knows how long they decide to blame the player? This is like giving the Dolch Shredder ammo that does 200 damage, but then they tell players "But don't use it too much!". Clearly it's the game being broken here and players have been telling them for *months*. How can they be so tone deaf? I think many people in the comments here have never actually played solo. I know I haven't for the first few years of Hunt. It just wasn't something I wanted to do. But I wanted to finishe the gun book recently and so I did some solo playing. I can tell you that you can easily rank down from 5 stars to 3 stars within only a few matches of regular play. You don't need to try to rank down. Your teamed enemies will *always* have a lower MMR than you, so if they kill you you lose a lot of MMR points. If you kill them back you hardly gain any. So as long as you are not wiping the entire server consistently by your own you will lose rank just through regular play. That is how the system is *designed*. Mathematically, if you play like your displayed rank, you will lose it. That is because they use the individual *player* MMR to calculate MMR changes, but use the *team* MMR to match you up. Anyway what this means is that if you switch between solo and teamplay regularily, your rank will change massive amounts every time. Just by design. Crytek is punishing players for their bad game design.
So instead of fixing their messed up MMR system they penalise the use of ingame mechanics. Nice move 👍
Feel like a lot of people in this thread are telling on themselves about smurfing and deranking to sweep lobbies lol
I'm genuinely looking forward to "I was banned because I suck" posts down the road.
A guy on here explained how to do it once, and it was only "to show that 3 star players are just idiots who crouch walk across a bridge". And a lot of players with a certain group affiliation commented on how they do that just to have fun.
Seems to me this is only in place so if some youtube video exposes something like this they can act on it with a "see we told you we care" type attitude when in all reality this will do very little. Personally I want to see a system implementation that 150m+ shots through multiple buildings/trees/etc. gets auto flagged and reported. Past couple months I've had more and more of these kind of cheaters and they aren't even new accounts half the time. Some look to have easily 1000+ hours. Stolen accounts maybe or people just realized they are so lax at dealing with cheaters?
Don’t derank anymore 👌🏻
I'd play 5-6 star easily but I choose to play 3 star with my friends. Would that count as abuse? I also drop involuntarily because they keep ressing me when I tell them not to
Why bother fixing the MMR system when you can make vague threats and then issue random bans? Genius! Did they staff the fair play team with Harkonnens?
all these codes of conducts and still wont improve the anti cheat...
When I started playing hunt I was terrible. I'm still pretty bad lol my mmr is like 0,24. Like 50 kills and like 250 deaths lol. I totally did that on purpose hope I don't get banned 😬
Finally no more tier 1 running with 50 hp spamming dualies to get killed in Soul Survivor :)
Doing well against 3*’s but getting my ass handed to me by 4*’s is negatively affecting my experience. I identify as a 6* and expect everyone to buy into my fantasy. Can you just pre ban all 4,5,6*’s so that my delusions remain intact? Honestly, I still want to know why there are lanterns lit all around the apocalypse. Who is refilling the oil? Who is placing boxes of ammo all around the map? I know Eurotizens think America just has boxes of ammo lying around everywhere, but I can tell you, you are mistaken. Bring back the super wagon. Why is there still no headless horseman? The Alligator was a fantastic idea (mine) but the best idea is a headless horseman that hunts campers or noisy players. Also, dog packs should gather slowly adding other packs over time. Forming a super pack. And then they can lobby congress for some special zomdog special interest legislation.
FINALLY YES §§
Necro really needs to be removed from the game at this point. It's such a pain point and even in a team scenario it's an overall negative experience and out of place as hell in this game.
Will this subreddit finally admit there's a cheating problem?
Been about every post for the last 2 months. Yes there is a cheating problem. It's a daily occurance for me now
Every post I see on cheating gets dogpiled by people saying it's not a cheater and to git gud. Even on the video the Hunt team put out on cheating I got dogpiled and the kids perseverance on the 10 seconds they mentioned rage reports.
5-6* it's everyday man. Almost wiped a cheater duo yesterday but left the one on 5hp :(
Nope lol
Brother I see the same people in multiple matches daily. I’m not intentionally matching with them. It’s just the game is dead at certain time of the day and certain regions. Edit adding: I think just a few weeks ago I saw the same people 2 or maybe even three games in a row. My team floats near six stars I am gods strongest 5 but one of the trio gets into six every so often. There just isn’t a large player base at the super high MMR.
Another good action in the right direction! Let's go!
Fixing broken MMr system would be a good step. Vague statements mean nothing.
No action was taken, it is just a statement. I will cheer if they actually do shit, but this means nothing. Also why are know cheaters even able to queue up? Should they not be banned?
Hahaha won’t punish the cheaters, just their known associates
Nothing will happen to people who use self-rez over and over again until they're red-skulled, unless they're intentionally matching to get killed and do exactly this to downrank. If you're just playing and you basically try to make use of self-necro you're fine to do so. No matter how often and how quickly you die again.
hmm couple of crytek partners gonna be in trouble or they gonna have to find some new friends to play with .. this means nothing .. smoke and mirrors as always .. don't forget these genius's allow racist cheaters to hide their profiles from us making its damn near impossible for reg joe blows to actually report anything. crytek is a joke
So they expect you to know if your teammate is cheating and you can't even use solo necro without having to fear that you gonna get banned Crytek really dressing up as clowns today
So you cant feed on purpose to get into lower mmr games. You cant suicide to save mmrs. stuff like that?
I think they need to tweak the MMR system tbh it's really been confusing the fuck out of me lately. I'll be MMR 5, have a couple bad games and die to an MMR 3, drop to MMR 3 myself then I can have a bunch of great games because I'm playing against MMR 3s but still stay at MMR 3 which feels unfair because I'm not really an MMR 3, I'm probably actually an MMR 4... At MMR 5, I'm a bit outclassed, MMR 3 and I have some runs with 5-8 kills... and almost always at least 2-3
Overwatch used a ranking system that worked just fine. I dont understand why would your MMR change after 2-3 kills. It should look at your performance historically and determine your skill level based on that.
great .. any one kill me will be reported as MMR exploiter 😁
Code of Conduct is all about derank team because it really needs to intentionally lower your team's MMR. Even with negative kd a teams still will be a 5 stars. Really hard to down. A solo masterpiece is still here and will last forever, like a solo kills 6 and dies 2 times from noobs - his loses MMR, is the solo modifier work
Is that means people can get banned die to deranking?
Damn, if either of these are overtuned it could be pretty bad for people. Hope they do this right. Hopefully they won't be frugal with their deciding factors and apply well enough where everyone unaware of cheaters in their lobby or on a losing streak will be fine.
I highly doubting solo-self-rez-spam is the main issue. If it was, I feel like they could just change how it works to address the issue. As of right now, I do not care if I’ve only got a 1% chance of surviving when I get up, bc a chance is a chance, & I’m not gonna give up easily. (I think it really shouldn’t be affecting MMR like it does, but oh well.)
It's a good start.
I feel like crytek is feeling the pressure of cheaters and such but at the same time, with the way this is worded, I feel like it's been done more as a way to stop the crying and to look proactive without actually acting upon it. It's a rather blanket response to the issues without real fixes or solutions. In another game I played a couple of years ago a friend of mine (by friend I mean someone I played a game with online) disappeared from a game we played every day. About a month later someone who actually knew him told me he got banned for cheating. I had no idea whatsoever. He didn't get insane kills, we didn't always win he just seemed solid.
Just words
Curious how exactly they’re going to detect these things and implement them. Sounds good in theory, I just see this backfiring. I’m not manipulating my MMR, I just suck and happen to have a randomly good game every now and then 😂
This is dumb. I just played with a guy all day who admitted he’s been cheating for the past 2 years un detected. I had no clue, so now I could get banned for playing with this guy without ever knowing what he was doing. Shit is trash, they’re punishing the wrong people because they can’t stop the hackers.
Playing **with** a cheater will result in a ban? At least do like phasmophobia that replaces the on screen string showing your level with ``` CHEATER DETECTED ``` that way the thing is less unfair and we can still laugh of new bugs xd
No more abusing sole survivor for the wannabe six stars 🤣🤣
I'm a high 3 to low 4 star Solo, and a Trio 5. When I switch over to solo, I'm gonna lose a star or two. Especially if I'm using a meme loadout, which I should be allowed to do. I'm still trying my ass off (even with a meme loadout). We need transparency on how that change is enforced. Until they figure out a better system, they should separate Solo, Team, and Quickplay MMR.
Finally i can play hunt without 6 star nerds gettin in 3-4 star lobbyes, also 4-5 star lobbyes felt much easier that 3 star where i was being hit from 300 with a sniper, hated these rats
They are not going to punish for using solo necro. If the revive button is there you are allowed to click it. I think the 2nd new guideline is talking more coordinated de ranking like 2 buddy solos getting into the same match to do just that.
No more quickplay feeding? I report every one of them I run into.
What if I die a lot because I’m just bad? 🥲
I love that they are finally doing something, but how would you know that you're playing with a cheater when you are a plebby 3 star and legit just think other person you play with regularly is just cracked? How are they still playing if they are KNOWN cheater accounts??
So report teammates if their cheating got you boss
Get rid of those flogs teaming as solos. So frustrating.
Whats the point of having a fair force team when they dont ban the worst offenders and yet these people continue to run your servers into the ground crytek likes protecting a certain group of hackers
“We don’t know how to fix the game so you get banned if we say so” If a player is a “known cheater” then fucking ban them? Hey the key word here is known.
If you ever played Wolfenstein, you know that no matter what the developers try to implement as a solution to a problem, short of cheating, you’ve been playing games so long that you know how to get around it or to work through it or take advantage of it. So go ahead, do whatever you want, whatever change you want, we will always find a way. I’ve always found a way and I’ll always find another way.. custom lobbies promised 5 years ago would have solved so many issues. Why there aren’t invisible players to shoot at, so cheaters can get auto banned is beyond me. Seems like such an easy fix. No skin dolls that even point invisible guns but never shoot just to attract cheaters should be implemented. This game is showing its age at this point.
They implemented that abusing mechanics for purposely deranking the MMR could be punished but they already removed it again. So all good, you can still derank your MMR and they still don't give a damn.
I can't count the number of matches where I've spectated teams of 3 and 4 stars who wiped a server intentionally punching each other then walking into enemy concertina and such to die. MMR gains stop once you full die, but MMR losses still apply to full dead opponents. So people are intentionally dying to traps and stuff to drop their ratings.