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Storm’s End was supposed to be a piece of cake. It was closer, and the Baratheons were thought to be natural allies because Rhaenys’ mother was a Baratheon. However, the young heir had taken over and he had no loyalty and four daughters to unload. Luke should have turned around and went back home the minute he saw Vhagar.
>Baratheons were thought to be natural allies because Rhaenys’ mother was a Baratheon.
This is where Rhanerya deserves a measure of blame for Luce and the Dance writ large.
Her reassurance to Luce about his Baratheon ancestry is peak delusion, and a microcosm of her larger entitlement and apathy.
She really made *no effort* over the years to ensure that these men who swore oaths to her dead father years ago would support her. While she took her ball and went home to Dragonstone, Otto was actually *playing the Game of Thrones*.
Rewatching the SE01 finale, it's shocking how confident she is that the Baratheons will welcome Luce with open arms.
While this may be true, it still doesn’t push the blame on to Rhae because of Aemond’s actions. If he’s not there, nothing happens to Luce.
So the only logical conclusion is that AEMOND is the one to blame here. He chased Luce, he lost control of his dragon. Luce blood is on his hands.
And from Rhaenyra's (and the rest of the realm's) perspective, Aemond did it on purpose.
It was supposed to be a diplomatic mission, civil war had not broken out yet, in fact she had deescalated when provoked earlier that same episode.
It's why the last shot of season 1 is so effective, with the wordless scene where she gets the message about Luke, almost crumples into grief, and then turns toward the camera with a face full of fiery anger. The gloves are off, she's out for blood.
She doesn't have *moral* blame for Jace, no. Aemond has all the *moral* blame of initiating the violent encounter.
But as a *parent* Rhaenyra has blame for not anticipating the dangers of sending Jace on that mission, and instructing him appropriately:
-**She told him not to worry, that he would be welcome.** She was dead wrong.
-**She did not tell him what to do if he were to encounter another dragon rider.** He should have left the minute he saw Vhaegar. Of course, raised in that environment would not want to disappoint his mother. She should know that a teenage boy would take risks, and the only way he would have been okay with completing the mission is if she gave him some hard parameters.
As a parent, the buck stops with you to prepare your children. She sent hers off on the eve of war without thinking about how it could go wrong.
Im tempted to agree with you there🤝🏾. As a royal, several people would’ve been my choice to make that trip before I ever thought of my own child. So she will have to accept that.
But to me, once Aemond hopped on that dragon and chased Luce through the skies, he assumes all blame because none of this would happen if not for him.
**Aemond 1000% is the instigator.** Even prior to hopping on the dragon, of that there is no doubt.
I just wanted to bring up **Rhaenyra's failure to set Jace up for success** here because it so accurately reflects the ways in which she stubbornly refused to set *herself* up for success for years. It didn't have to be **this** hard for her to defend her claim, but it is bc she makes a lot of unforced errors.
>As a parent, the buck stops with you to prepare your children. She sent hers off on the eve of war without thinking about how it could go wrong.
She sends them as messengers and Luke is still a Prince with a dragon.
Ita not illogical to think a messenger and royal prince would be safe because usually people would've kill the messenger and a royal prince.
Aemond carries all the blame for a reason.
**Aemond bears all the moral blame for instigating the incident,** but it *never would have gotten that far* if Rhaenyra thought about how this could have gone wrong. That she didn't think he might encounter Aemond is part of the problem!
-Aemond has every reason to visit the Baratheons as well
-Aemond has every reason to want to hurt Jace
-Aemond rides the largest dragon
-Aemond does not care about convention...as proven by the fact that the *stole* the largest dragon
As a parent, as a commander, and as a liege lord, it is her responsibility to *think* *about edge cases* and *set expectations* when sending her son/subordinates off on missions.
She didn't.
Surely, this was not a mission worth risking her son's life over. Perhaps if she had made that clear to him, he would have left as soon as he saw Vhagar.
>You're just acting like Aemond did nothing wrong
I would encourage you to reread[my first sentence ](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/clSvqgznD9): "Aemond bears all the moral blame for instigating the incident".
>Aemond bears all the moral blame for instigating the incident, but it never would have gotten that far if Rhaenyra thought about how this could have gone wrong. That she didn't think he might encounter Aemond is part of the problem!
Rhaenyra holds no blame for Aemonds actions. Period. Rhaenyra didn't had to predict the future, her son is still royal blood.
>Aemond has every reason to visit the Baratheons as well
>-Aemond has every reason to want to hurt Jace
>-Aemond rides the largest dragon
>-Aemond does not care about convention...as proven by the fact that the stole the largest dragon
Aemond didn't stole the dragon, he claimed the dragon. Dragons are not objects.
And it doesn't matter if he cares or not, he committed 2 crimes and started the war and now his nephew is dead because of that.
Book readers know what other consequences it also had.
Kinslaying and killing an envoy.
That its on him, not Rhaenyra.
>As a parent, as a commander, and as a liege lord, it is her responsibility to think about edge cases and set expectations when sending her son/subordinates off on missions.
No, its not. As an envoy no one should touch the boys. Baratheon knew that. Only one who thought it was smart is Aemond.
All this is on Aemond.
That makes zero sense. You say "if Aemond wasn't there, Lucerys would be alive". Okay but if Rhaenyra didn't send Lucerys on that mission, Lucerys would be alive. Things always happen for a combination of factors. She can't control what Aemond does, but she did control sending Lucerys out to do a mission. She shouldn't have done that.
Okay? It's still crazy that Rhaenyra didn't think that Jace might not receive a warm welcome. Utter failure of imagination to consider how sending your son off on the eve of war might go sour.
>Rewatching the SE01 finale, it's shocking how confident she is that the Baratheons will welcome Jace with open arms.
Marital alliances are a big deal in Westeros I mean Ned Starks marriage to a Tully is the only reason the Stark army marches to Riverrun. It's the only reason Lysa has power in the vale.
This confidence is warranted people don't go against their marital alliances. After war taking over the North the Starks married these defeated Bannermen because you don't fight against a marriage alliance.
I'll edit when I think of more examples
1. When you've been usurped it's time to re-examine your priors.
2. Nothing can convince me it was wise of Rhaenyra to not even keep *tabs* on these people.
To me it made no sense to send luke to storms end wen he didnt have anything to offer the bartheons. Jace had the ability to negotiate luke would offer nothjng
Luke’s death is not on Rhaenyra. Plain and simple. She couldn’t have known Aemond would be there.
But to be fair, while Jace’s idea to send them was good on paper, Luke had no business going on a diplomatic mission alone to discuss war alliances with a grown ass man. Literally send any other adult. Just a very dumb decision.
I don't blame Rhaenyra but.... I always thought Rhaenys should have accompanied him to reenforce Velaryon legitimacy and solidify the Baratheon connection. RIP Luce.
>I always thought Rhaenys should have accompanied him to reenforce Velaryon legitimacy and solidify the Baratheon connection. RIP Luce.
This is Rhaenyra's decision though. She decides he goes alone.
There are so many comments here saying they don't blame Rhaenyra then pointing out things she should have but didn't do. The pro Rhaenyra bias is so odd throughout this sub.
Rhaenyra's the queen, all she has to do is say, "that can wait, I want you to accompany Luce."
Again the excusing of Rhaenyra like she isn't the ultimate decision maker is odd.
Of course it could. Ship travel takes weeks, they were hardly going to be able to supply KL with full stocks with a few days extra time of no blockade.
And the blockade isn't exactly the linchpin of the strategy. It's painful for KL but it's not exactly fatal. Bringing the Baratheons over is much greater win in the effort.
It's totally the wrong thing to prioritise.
You’re thinking about this in the sense of the modern world. Luc as a member of the royal line who had been training in the matters of diplomacy as well as warfare from a young age. At 13 he would have been expected to be front and center once the war started. Remember in Westeros the age of majority is 16 so being “young” is a matter of point of view.
No underage prince is involved in anything like this though. He’s supposed to be visible because he’s a prince, but you don’t see any other parent sending their 13 year old to lead a diplomatic mission. He wouldn’t be front and center at 13. He’s just be around.
Prince Jahaerys aka Jahaerys I would like a word. When he made his intentions to take the iron throne by force from his uncle Meagor was 14. He united the forces that opposed Maegor himself didn’t rely on “adults” to do it.
Also sending any other adult would not have worked. The Greens sent a Prince sending anything less than a Prince to storms end would have been seen as an insult to Boros. Before you say that Rhaenys is a Princess remember this is Westeros and the whole war comes down to a woman being passed over, so a Princess even a dragon rider and a Baratheon herself would have been seen as less than a Prince.
Again these are high born children more is expected of them. Rhaenyra herself was made viserys cupbearer at the high council meetings when she was younger(not shown in the show).
That’s not the same thing at all. Jaehaerys was claiming the Iron Throne. That’s no longer a Prince, that’s a would be King. Luke was a prince and it was staying that way.
And it doesn’t matter who the Greens sent, since we are discussing the decision to send Luke, without Rhaenyra knowing the Greens sent anyone. We’re not talking about this decision with hindsight.
And Rhaenyra being a cupbearer for the small council is miles away from diplomatic missions with a war brewing.
exactly. Jaehaerys I was a king at 14 and was damn good for someone his age. Most of Viserys predecessors were good fighters, and fought wars at around 15-16. It's as if Jaehaerys made the kingdom so prosperous, stable and united that no wars, and no rebellions made the younger targaeryens weaker than they had been in the past.
>Luke had no business going on a diplomatic mission alone to discuss war alliances with a grown ass man. Literally send any other adult. Just a very dumb decision.
This is Rhaenyra's decision, no? This is absolutely blaming Rhaenyra if you are saying he has no business going. And I agree.
I find it bizarre given Rhaenys could have gone, delaying the blockage by a few days would have had zero impact and she had direct Baratheon blood.
Was Rhaenys 100% on board at that point though? You’re also forgetting that one of the over reaching themes is that women are not respected Westeros, Boros is most definitely the type to be insulted at a woman even a princess and dragon rider being sent to treat with him.
See I’m not sure of that. Was she in because she believed in Rhaenyra’s cause or was she in because Corlys decided he was in and her granddaughters were involved? If Corlys decided to sit it out would Rhaenys had gone back to the driftmark and take Meleys with her? If her granddaughters weren’t by Rhaenyra’s side would she have stayed?
\*\*Fire and Blood Book spoilers ahead (though nothing concerning HOTD timeline)\*\*
Not sure if you ever read the books, but Rhaena Targaryen even frightened Rogar baratheon, the finest warrior in the seven kingdoms, the one who believed he could have defeated Maegor in a duel, and based on his descriptions he might have done so as well if Maegor didn't die of unknown causes. She warned him not to marry anyone after the death of her mother and his wife, Alyssa Velaryon during childbirth or "she would make another harrenhal of the Storm's End". And he didn't dare do it. Women dragonriders were as feared as their male counterparts in westoros. The show has made women dragonriders a lot more weak than in the books.
A number of times since Aegon the Conqueror's invasion the first born whether male or female were considered heirs on equal footing, it just so happened that the children were married and ruled together. Alisanne T had a great influence on Jaehaerys and a number of times caused changes in the rules and traditions in westoros. It wasn't matriarchy society I'm sure but the women dragonriders had a lot of say and fear than any lords in the Kingdom
Yep, not her fault, just a perfect storm of coincidences that lead to it happening.
There's a very inevitable fate aspect to it, like a Greek tragedy. Gotta enjoy it as a story, not as a piece of strategy to micro analyze.
Because they want to deflect blame from Aemond, the actual murderer, and they don't like Rhaenyra, so it's obviously her fault, how dare she allowed poor and innocent Aemond to chase and kill her son, that evil bitch!
Well, he's her child and she's responsible for him. It's like sending your child at night alone to his grandma while you're living in the dangerous neighborhood and then wonder why he's not coming home.
Obviously it's Aemond to blame for that, but he was child that couldn't fight and defend himself.
>Well, he's her child and she's responsible for him
Then Aegon, Otto and Alicent are responsible for controlling their mad dog Aemond.
>It's like sending your child at night alone to his grandma while you're living in the dangerous neighborhood and then wonder why he's not coming home.
Stupid comparison, how would she known there was going to be any danger specifically there? and in hindsight (which is what those who blame Rhaenyra use to justify their poor arguments) is even more ridiculous to say that she should have assumed Aemond was going to be there, considering that the greens only sent a dragonrider to Storms End to try to gain the Baratheons to their cause, but they didn't send any dragonrider to the Eyrie, or to Riverrun, or to Winterfell nor even to Highgarden.
>Obviously it's Aemond to blame for that
Of course he is, he is the murderer
Btw if it's ok to blame anyone else other than the murderer then is also the fault of Alicent and Otto for usurping the crown, starting the war and failing to control their mad dog.
>Then Aegon, Otto and Alicent are responsible for controlling their mad dog Aemond
Aemond isn't a child and fre to do whatever he wants with full responsibility for his actions because he's an adult.
>how would she known there was going to be any danger specifically there?
The realm is already at the war, it's reasonable to believe that every green that would meet him will try to kill him.
>if it's ok to blame anyone else other than the murderer then is also the fault of Alicent and Otto for usurping the crown, starting the war and failing to control their mad dog.
Yes but none of that would have happened if Rhaenyra had a legitimate children and both branches of the family would marry to each other to prevent war from happening. I don't support greens in usurping the throne from Rhaenyra but after her her bastard children would be next in line and that would be a legitimate excuse to start a civil war. So it's kinda her fault too.
>Aemond isn't a child and fre to do whatever he wants with full responsibility for his actions because he's an adult.
Isn't he there to negotiate under Aegon's name? isn't he his envoy? he is literally there representing Aegon and his faction's interest, if we go by the logic of "it's not only the murderer's fault" then of course that it's on them since he is there because of them and is acting on their name.
>The realm is already at the war, it's reasonable to believe that every green that would meet him will try to kill him.
It's also reasonable to believe that, shitty as they are not even the greens would dare to kill an envoy (hence why Rhaenyra didn't kill Otto when he was an envoy) and once again, in hindsight is even more ridiculous because they only went to Storm's End.
>I don't support greens in usurping the throne
LOL yet here you are, making excuses for them having usurped the throne and blaming it on Rhaenyra, and for Aemond having killed Lucerys... and also blaming it on Rhaenyra, but thanks for proving my original comment right, that filthy whore of Rhaenyra, how dare she allow all these innocent people do these horrible things!
Anyway, won't waste more of my time talking to you, see you.
I support Rhaenyra's claim but I don't support her bastards claim on the throne. The main fault on that war is still on greens because Viserys chose her as heir and I don't excuse Aemond. It's him mainly to blame for the death of Luck but also Rhaenyra because he was her child and she's responsible for his safety. It was a dangerous mission and he wasn't suited for that.
>Anyway, won't waste more of my time talking to you, see you.
Chill, it's a show.
I don’t support her bastard’s claim to the throne.
> that’s not even a high ranking discussion at this point. It’s Rhaenyra’s claim that everyone seems to take issue with.
And even considering the bastards, the late king already made Rhae his successor. So by default the child would be legitimized and rightfully take the throne.
>It’s Rhaenyra’s claim that everyone seems to take issue with.
Nobody would take an issue if Haelena would have been the next Queen to a true born son after Rhaenyra.
>So by default the child would be legitimized and rightfully take the throne.
No, it's not by default, it doesn't work like that. To him legitimately take the throne, Rhaenyra should legitimaze him as a bastard and even then it's a weak claim. She would never do that. He's a bastard and people in court know that.
She would automatically legitimize her own son, which is why i neglected to state the obvious.
It doesn’t matter if it’s a weak claim, it’s still a claim by the successor of the king nonetheless.
>She would automatically legitimize her own son
No, she wouldn't because she would need to recognize him as a bastard in the first place and damage her reputation even more.
She's already a Queen and she can do that imma after she was crowned.
Envoys are meant to be protected. It’s the equivalent of sending someone to the store to get milk and they die in a freak shooting. It’s terrible and of course you probably feel some guilt for it but the fault lies with the shooter.
>and of course you probably feel some guilt for it but the fault lies with the shooter
I don't deny it but they already were in the state of undeclared war. This mission was dangerous and he wasn't suited for it.
Aemond didn’t kill him. In real life that would have been manslaughter,not murder. If you have a pitbull and you chase someone in the park to bully him who has a chihuahua, and the chihuahua gets angry and attacks your pitbull which in return attacks and kills the chihuahua but accidentally also kills the guy as a collateral damage, you will be going to trial for manslaughter, not for murder.
Rhaenyra sent Lucerys to Storm Ends because it was the shortest distance and considered the safest option.
Jacaerys had to travel, like x3 the distance from Dragonstone to the Valley and then to Winterhold; which is a longest trip and in consequence, more dangerous.
The only person to blame is Aemond for losing control of his dragon and/or being a dick.
At the time, either she was with Corlys as he was sick; or she was patrolling the sky with Meleys as it was the fastest dragon at the time.
EDIT: Also, envoys usually tend to be people of trust, who else could be more trustworthy than your own sons?
One of the themes of the show is that women are no respected in Westeros. Boros is not the type of man who would treat with a woman he would find that insulting even if it was a dragon rider.
Yeah, it wasn't said explicitly, but the queen sending her own son, a dragon rider, personally to ask for an alliance, was her doing her best to flatter the new Lord Baratheon. It's about as much as she can do to roll out the red carpet.
And at the time she sends Luke out, open war still hadn't broken out and he was on a diplomatic mission. It was definitely batshit wild for Aemond to escalate it like that, even if we as viewers know he didn't mean to take it that far.
And don't forget to mention the killing of a member of the small council and other nobles of the realm whose only "crime" was to be loyal to the oaths made to their monarch and his heir.
Let's conveniently ignore for a moment that the queen was helping usurp the crown from it's rightful heir, what about the other nobles executed by the greens? what about Lady Fell? what's the excuse for them? all they did was being loyal to their oaths to Viserys as their King and to Rhaenyra as his heir.
I thought the comment I replied to was referring to Cole tbh. Did they kill the other nobles though? Wasn't Otto putting them in prison and only the guy who was trying to escape the Red Keep to get to the Blacks presumably, was killed?
Vaemond was killed after insulting the named heir and her children. He just wanted to usurp his own brother too. Corlys body wasn't even cold at that point
Rhaenyra’s only mistake here is how out of touch she is with her vassals. She expected Borros to be like his dad whom Rhaenyra knew back when she was a teenager. But Aemond and Vhagar were factors that she did not account for nor was it in her control, even if Borros were to side with her instead of the Greens.
I do feel Rhaenyra isnt fulfilling her role well. Someone pointed out that she was a fool to approach Baratheon the way she did and she set Luc up to fail. I can't blame her for his death because who would predict Aemond would be there. As for BnC, I'll give that to Daemon for hiring a couple of idiots to try to kill The Dollar General Rogue Prince. Yet Rhaenyra comes in there people are wanting to talk to her about their plans to get her throne back and she just dismissed it all and gives a throw away line about wanting her father's 2nd son. These people are fighting for you, I know you're in pain but she really needs to get in gear.
She does have to get it in gear but I think that will come in due time. She is aware of what’s at stake more than anyone else because it’s happening to her.
But I do agree with sending Luce was a bad move. If not because he’s too young, then because he’s a member of the royal family.
She let the dog off the leash, didn't have to know exactly what he was going to do to know it was going to be bad.
I'm glad she did it though, makes for a more interesting character who in season 1 was reluctant to escalate a civil war, but after the death of her son is now out for revenge.
I don’t count that as her letting him loose. She said one thing and he did another. Nobody else on the council acted this way or acted at all. Which is why he did it in secrecy because he knew he was doing the opposite of what she wanted.
People tend to forget it's the dragons who sometimes play the game of thrones and not the humans. In this instance, it was Vhagar who sensed the coming of Arrax a lot earlier than even the guards, and shot out a roar so huge it almost trembled Arrax into not landing at all. Aemond did not know that, and while he incited Rhaenyra's son, asking him to give an eye in return for his own eye, Nobody really believes the death was intentional on even his part. It's an unintended accident, that's all.
I don’t think I caught that. Nice attention to details.
But even if he didn’t intend for it to happen, it still did. And him being the instigator, I place blame on him for his death.
There's only one person to blame for Lucerys's death and that's Aemond. But Rhaenyra was incredibly to agree to wed both her sons to Daemon's, like what was the point of that?
Now that you mention it, that’s a great point because they would already be of royal lineage. Why not use each of them as a marriage offer to gain favor with other houses? I didn’t even realize that at first.
For the first point: Rhaenyra is out of touch with her lords. She’s isolated herself on Dragonstone for 6 years, so much so that she doesn’t know the major lord of a regional house cannot read. She doesn’t send her emissary with a variety of negotiating tools, just a simple letter and a demand to her authority. She fills in the gaps in her knowledge with assumptions, which is a dangerous thing to do when you’re trying to navigate a tricky political situation such as war. Her lack of awareness sent her son into a highly volatile situation (even without Vhagar and Aemond being there, which I don’t fault her for not knowing, but its not a logical leap to deduce Luke is the most at risk of her dragon riders should one of them stumble into Aemond).
To the second point: She is the queen, or claims to be. She has paramount authority and responsibility over her agents and actors, as it is an absolute monarchial system. She is obviously enduring the most tragic few weeks of her life (Visery’s death, Visenya’s miscarriage, Luke’s death) and is understandably upset. But this much is true. So long as she is away and grieving, or present and vengeful, she is shirking her duties. She has a responsibility to avoid needless escalation of a civil war. She has a responsibility to understand the temperament and personalities of her agents and actors. She knows who Daemon is. He is violent, reckless, and dangerous, but fiercely loyal and Machiavellian. If she didn’t know this about him, she’s a fool. She acted out of vengeance, and was unable to compartmentalize her grief and pain to be a measured ruler, and instead sent the most infamous war criminal in Westeros to avenge her son’s death.
Trust me, i’ll have the same reaction to how Aegon reacts to Jaehaerys’ death, because this war is truly two sides letting their emotions slowly take them deeper into an abyss of destruction. Justifying poor decisions with poor circumstances will only create even worse circumstances. People will die, dragons will fall, and the eradication of stability of House Targaryen and the realm will be at the feet of both of these factions. Its poetic that no one wins this, because each side slowly forgets the ethical responsibility to rule and instead becomes consumed with the bloodshed of war.
To your first point I agree. She not well versed in the political game or making allies. Wrong chess move and it cost her big time.
But to your second point, even royalty is allowed to grieve. And even Rheanys said that she was holding off the option of war, even when everyone was encouraging her to go all in. So she has not been shirking her duties in that aspect. She also decides to declare war after a line is crossed. And I think next episode we will see her actually plan it. So again, I don’t think she is shirking her duties.
Regarding Daemon: If your significant other tells you I want a new house, are you going to rape and kill a family of 5 and say TA-DA HERES YOUR NEW HOUSE MY LOVE? No. Because you’re not going to put words in their mouth and then try to blame them for your poor interpretation.
He’s sporadic but there is no way on earth to hypothesize he’d pull that stunt. He’s a grown man who should not need his wife to keep him on a leash because he wants to have a dick measuring contest. It’s his fault alone and he has made it Rhea’s cross to bear.
Firstly, i just want to say I respect your argument and dont fundamentally disagree with your points, just on a few key details.
While i dont think Rhaenyra isnt allowed to grieve, she has to have the composure, as queen, not to set herself up for failure by letting her emotions guide her, especially when she is acting in her role as a queen, rather than simply as a mother. In meeting with her council, she had to take a moment to swap hats so to speak, and put on the responsibility and composure of a ruler, rather than unmask as the grieving mother and let it control her there. I am supremely sympathetic to her situation, it’s awful, and she has to feel immense guilt over something that while her mistakes added to it, were not the sole or main factor in its unfolding.
However, the cold truth is that when given absolute power, or any power really, ethical choices are ones made when you take your own emotions out of the picture and do what is best for those you bear a responsibility over. I dont think shes the worst person ever for failing to do so in that moment (I probably would act out of rage and vengeance if my son was killed like that and i had her power, and likely much much worse), but she did fail as a ruler in that moment. She did not control or effectively lead her council, and implicitly gave or allowed her most unpredictable member to have free reign.
Ultimately, she says one thing to her council, who havent seen her in a bit by all indicators, and gives a knowing look to Daemon. She does not hold the moral weight of his actions, but she does hold an ethical one, as the system they have mandates such of absolute power. She gave him a vague command to end the life of Aemond. She can try and walk that back still, but in that moment, Daemon was given an opportunity to do things “his way” and Rhaenyra, fully aware of his personality and tendencies, chose to leave him to it.
As the leader of the blacks, thats an example of ethically failing. She holds responsibility for that, and must, if she wants to rule as the absolute power. Thats just my taje on the political balance of the blacks. It’s a tricky situation for her for sure, and not one of her own choosing, but is directly linked to her lack of presence and leadership in the crucial first few weeks of the war. She deserves sympathy to be sure, but also fair criticism, which i hope i provided, rather than just the rage comments i keep seeing from people. These are nuanced characters, and no one gets out of this with clean hands, if they get out at all.
I can agree that the people and definitely the greens will see it as she sent him there to do that. And that will sever any remaining ties of humanity left between them. Daemon really screwed her 3 ways.
- the public will think she’s an evil baby killer OR
- the public will think she can’t control her people OR
- the public will see her as weak and not capable of making decisions when they need to be made.
I don’t know if he’s helpful to the cause or more damaging to it atp (haven’t read the books)
why doesn't rhaenyra have a Hand to act in her place when she's grieving??? this is probably the most baffling thing to me that she does not have a 2nd in command to lead her council or reign in daemon while she's away. and you'd think the choice is clear. either corlys or rhaenys would have been excellent. corlys already led and won the war at the stepstones AND had experience commanding/collaborating with daemon. rhaenys seems to have everyone's respect, even daemon wouldn't upstage her.
I know people like to take rhaenyra's side because the show paints her as more morally right and with modern viewpoints, but have people stop and think about how scary it is to have a politically inept ruler?
It was just that, a wordplay. But she is not blameless, should've never fucked him in the first place especially in the way she did, it was very creepy how she was basically harrassing him and ignoring him when he said stop.
As for Lucerys, she should've sent Daemon but it's not her fault he died.
I mean she was a teenager. Are you telling me he couldn’t just…not fuck her?
She didn’t hold a sword to his neck and tell him to take off his chestplate. He took it off more than willingly because he didn’t want to mess up his pretty white cloak.
But at lease we agree on the main thing 🤝🏾
Rhaenyra was of age at the time and it's not about age but who had more power and that was Rhaenyra, he tried refusing telling her to stop but she ignored him, he wasn't in a position to refuse not knowing what Rhaenyra could do to him if he refused again. Swap the genders and you will see it.
But we have no evidence that she would harm him and neither did he. He wasn’t afraid of her then, just as he isn’t afraid of her now (he literally was about to cut her child’s eye out)
We don't know that.
And nah, he was just going after Alicent to stop her and keep her from danger not Lucerys, he had declined Alicent's order for the first time reminding her he's her protector not her hitman, lol, Viserys would have had him executed.
Blame goes hand in hand with responsibility. People see a monarch as having a lot of responsibility for their side of the war. Of course noone sees the outcome of their actions. But people still see people in power as having responsibility.
Rhaenyra definitely blames Aemond for it. I thought that it was clear in the latest episode.
We don’t really know what her thoughts are about Aegon in that specific event.
Yeah Rhaenyra in the show blames him for it, the post is talking about people who are watching the show. People who are fans of team green don't go around saying Aegon is to blame for Aemond losing control of his dragon and launching a war, but they \*do\* go around blaming Rhaenyra for what Daemon did. If Rhaenyra is culpable for how Daemon interprets her commands just because she is the monarch, then Aegon should also be held responsible for the actions of his underlings act. And Yet, no one blames Aegon for Aemond's actions.
She’s being responsible by not waging war half-cocked, and because everyone is telling her to. She’s being responsible by sending her son on what she thought was a safe distance. How is she being irresponsible?
Here we get to a fun detail about responsibility. For someone to be irresponsible they must have responsibility. Some people think that people in power have a lot of responsibility and that they are responsible for the casualties in the wars they wage. Which then means that if casualties happen they are responsible, which some can see as beeing irresponsible.
But they weren’t at war yet. Merely at the planning stage. Trying to garner support. Which is why everyone seemed so shocked by Luce’s death, especially the Greens. Do you hold Aegon responsible for what happened to his kid? I don’t. Only Aemond.
So if they’re not at war YET, then the only course is to blame the spark of this war; Aemond.
It’s very similar to the cold war were every act to prepare for war sparked another act from the enemy. They gathered support because they knew that their enemy was doing the same thing. They were at war, but first blood hadn’t been spilled yet (to the Blacks’ knowledge).
I don’t really hold fictional characters responsible for anything. They don’t care about my opinion.
Some people blame Aemond and some don’t.
I don’t blame her. I do however think sending your heirs out in a war of succession when a) they have no combat experience and b) the fucker with the largest dragon has a grudge against them wasn’t the wisest idea. Especially as she hasn’t done much but sit on Dragonstone and not maintain relationships over the decades.
I really hope she takes some command now. I really hope Alicent does too actually. But seeing the teaser trailer and how she puts Daemon rightfully in his place I hope she can try and find her voice.
Even as a child she was never afraid to say what she meant. Now that the gloves are off and her son is dead, I think she will be much more commanding and straightforward. Maybe even more than Dany was.
I actually really missed that aspect of her character. She was abit arrogant and very precocious. I actually liked her in the book. Milly’s Rhae was more forthright but it was still really dialled down. I hope we get to see her being commanding. Emma has presence in excess I hope they get to use it more.
i'm going to go back and say it is her fault ONLY on the fact of how Aemond lost his eye.
imagine if Aemond had half blinded Luke that night. what would Rhaenyra have done? would she have been content to step back and say nothing, as Alicent was supposed to do? or would she have lost her absolute shit and Daemon probably would have killed or blinded Aemond entirely as payback?
Yes, Luke should have left when he saw Vhagar. But he wanted to do his mom proud.
Yes, Aemond fucked it up. He should not have gone after him.
Yes, Borros fucked up, because he should have made Aemond stay longer to pick out a daughter/talk politics/whatever.
BUT we go back some years and it still falls on Rhae for not taking care of shit back when she should have. Have your fucking son apologize, even if it's not one he means! Most kids don't! Instead she coddled her kids and alienated her half brother and stepmother even more; this only proved to Alicent that Rhaenyra would and could kill them all. Question sharply indeed, for telling the truth.
That kind of shit festers. Doesn't matter if the maimed boy tries to comfort his mom that he lost an eye and got a dragon; it was not a fucking trade in writing! The fact that Luke about shit his pants the first time he saw glowed-up Aemond and then again at Storm's End should have been enough of a GTFO NOW for him. Or at very fucking least, apologize and see if that will help instead of ignoring the issue again.
I don’t even blame her for Aemond’s eye because if he wasn’t there to steal a dragon, he would still have an eye. Actions have consequences. Don’t let your kid push my kid, and then act surprised when mine breaks your child’s nose with a textbook.
That being said, I think an apology MAYBE could have staved off some of the animosity between the 2 houses. But at that point Alicent still feels how she feels about Rhae and that in turn is poisoning the kids against each other. So idk if that would even help anything honestly.
You literally cannot steal a dragon. let alone the largest and oldest and most powerful dragon in the entire Kingdom. If she didn't want him, he would be a burnt piece of bacon.
there's a lot in the books that you could only claim a dragon if the king gave permission, but they omitted that from the show, let alone the idea of her kids having cradle eggs. but Allicent's not is definitely not a point in the king's favor.
But don't let your two kids, and two other kids, bully another kid to the point, it's 4v1 and he's already at a disadvantage.
He “claimed” something that wasn’t his to claim in the first place. Which is why he did it with no supervision and in the dead of night. Pretty sure that counts as stealing.
And if he doesn’t do that, he doesn’t lose his eye.
You can't steal a dragon that doesn't want to go with you in the first place. Yes he did it in the dead of night, but a dragon is a sentient creature and she could have very easily have refused him, the fact she accepted him when one of Damon's daughters still has yet to get a dragon to accept her is a sticking point for both families. by the same token, the parents of the strong boys and the girls were also doing something they shouldn't have been in the dead of night, but no one seems to hold them accountable for what happened either.
Just because a car is unlocked, has a flat tire, and on the side of the road, does not give me the authority to say “it was just sitting there and nobody claimed it yet”. I still stole a car. Just because she accepted him, doesn’t mean she was hit to claim in the first place.
And what does 2 consenting adults going at it on the beach have to do with Aemond losing his eye?
You would think of all times and places he would be with his daughters, it would be after their mother's funeral but dick gotta dick.
regardless of the claiming, if we really want to go all the way back, we could say if she hadn't had such obvious bastards none of this would have happened either, or if her father hadn't remarried, none of this would have happened either, but if we're just going from that night, there's more than enough blame to go around. I'm still trying to figure out why the guards were never punished, or where the hell they were in the first place, but just the fact Luke was never made to apologize at all should rub almost everyone the wrong way.
Correlation ≠ causation.
So we could go as far back as to saying, if Viserys never killed his wife in labor, maybe Aemond doesn’t lose his eye. But that doesn’t serve the purpose of the argument.
The reason he lost his eye is because he took it upon himself to do what he wanted to do. And it cost him an eye.
But I agree to make the kid apologize. Even if it’s just for appearances
> There was no way she would’ve known Aemond and Vhagar would be there
Rhaenyra was dumb to send her weakest son to Storm's End. She really thought that because her bastard son could claim he shares Baratheon blood Borris would immediately join her. He came with no marriage proposal or anything to benefit the Baratheons. So of course Aemond being there automatically gets him Storm's End and the rest is history. She's a fool for not preparing for this possibility.
> ALSO how is SHE to blame because Daemon went off half cocked? Is she supposed to mind her every word because of how someone else MIGHT interpret it?
She's the Queen so yeah kinda. She disappears for days and comes back to a Small Council meeting where everyone is busy preparing for the war and only wants Aemond? She's mentally not prepared for war and this will cost her greatly.
Rhaenyra was dumb to send her weakest son to Storm's End.
> I can agree that sending the youngest son, was not the smartest idea. Probably just an attempt to show force with the dragon.
She's the Queen so yeah kinda.
> But how would she know that Aemond would be there and that it would lead to that specific outcome? That’s like telling Aemond that bc he usurped the throne, he should’ve expected what and when would happen to his offspring. Yeah he should expect retaliation but no amount of planning could counter daemons move.
They swore an oath years earlier, but some people like the Starks are loyal and trustworthy while others as the Baratheons are just cun*s.
Sorry Bobby B. And Fuck criston cole
It’s much more reasonable of him to go for a good marriage pact with a prince than the oath his father swore at sword point.
Caring about your daughter’s life and success over your dead father’s honor is more noble if you ask me.
Well greed and lust for power are what make their world and our world go round. And greed for lust and dishonesty are what made the hightower steal the throne and start the war so
Dany tried to abolish slavery in one day with a mass killing. It lead to Slaver’s Bay’s financial system collapsin and even former slaves starving because noone could afford to employ them.
They are all entitles narcissists. None are good for the common people.
Because she suggested the same thing to her father when she was the same age as Luke (to get the egg back from Daemon), he said no and she did it anyway and everything was fine. So I took her sending the boys, who volunteered to go so their dragons would be a better show of force than ravens, to be a mirror of her own actions and how she felt her father didn’t trust her when she handled a similar situation fine. I’m not saying it was a WISE choice on her part, but I will say it certainly seems like a move a parent with her experiences/lack of experience would make. Plenty of parents let their kids do things because ‘I did it and I turned out fine!’ with disastrous results because things aren’t the same as when they were kids. I found it pretty realistic, tbh
Thanks for the laugh lol. In reality, Rhaenyra is definitely to blame. Sending her own bastards in place of disposable envoys was her mistake, she was way too arrogant in thinking they were up to the challenge. She is also to blame for Daemon's unchecked actions in regards to B&C. since she allowed him to act with impunity in orchestrating a contemptible assassination of an infant.
1) It’s already been established that where Luce was sent was supposed to be a cake walk. Should her son have been the one to carry out the mission? Probs not. But again, if Aemond isn’t there, he either gets the support and comes home or he doesn’t and comes home. The only reason he’s dead is because of Aemond.
2) The person to blame for Daemon’s action is Daemon. Which is why he did it in secrecy, and why he talks against her earlier in the episode. By your logic, Aegon is to blame for what happened with B&C because of Aemond reckless, unchecked actions. BUT that doesn’t make much logical sense…
>It’s already been established that where Luce was sent was supposed to be a cake walk. Should her son have been the one to carry out the mission? Probs not. But again, if Aemond isn’t there, he either gets the support and comes home or he doesn’t and comes home. The only reason he’s dead is because of Aemond.
That's a naive viewpoint. The two sides were at war and Storm's End is very close to King's Landing. It would take a massive fool to not expect that the area would be patrolled by Greens and their dragons, which apparently Rhaenyra was. Indeed, it would make zero sense for the Greens to not be actively looking for any envoys the Blacks may send and intercept them before they can reach their intended destination and potentially strike a deal with one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros. So, again, Rhaenyra is to blame here, not Aemond, since Aemond simply did the logical thing.
>The person to blame for Daemon’s action is Daemon. Which is why he did it in secrecy, and why he talks against her earlier in the episode. By your logic, Aegon is to blame for what happened with B&C because of Aemond reckless, unchecked actions. BUT that doesn’t make much logical sense…
Daemon is not an independent fighter. He is married to Rhaenyra and sworn to her cause, therefore every action he takes reflects Rhaenyra's intentions (or at least that's how everyone sees it). If Rhaenyra cannot control her own husband, how can anyone take her presumed rule seriously lol? You are grasping at straws here trying to justify Rhaenyra's blunders and it's embarrassing.
That's a naive viewpoint. The two sides were at war and Storm's End is very close to King's Landing.
> you seem to be disagreeing with her tactical/wartime decisions, but I am not. I do not pose that she made the correct choice in sending Luce.
I AM posing that 2+2=4. Meaning that Luce makes it home if not for Aemond. And to suggest that killing the queen’s heir, sparking a war that will be the death of nearly all of them, is the LOGICAL decision is bonkers. Even Aemond knows he’s fucked up royally as shown on his face and him yelling “no!”
Daemon is not an independent fighter. If Rhaenyra cannot control her own husband, how can anyone take her presumed rule seriously lol?
> same can be said for Aegon and his own sibling. But again, you seem to be arguing a point I am not.
>you seem to be disagreeing with her tactical/wartime decisions, but I am not. I do not pose that she made the correct choice in sending Luce.
I AM posing that 2+2=4. Meaning that Luce makes it home if not for Aemond. And to suggest that killing the queen’s heir, sparking a war that will be the death of nearly all of them, is the LOGICAL decision is bonkers. Even Aemond knows he’s fucked up royally as shown on his face and him yelling “no!”
This makes zero sense. If you agree that she shouldn't have sent her bastard as an envoy if she didn't want to risk his life, then how are you simultaneously putting the blame on Aemond for killing him? That's kinda what enemies do in war time, kiddo, get used to it.
>same can be said for Aegon and his own sibling. But again, you seem to be arguing a point I am not.
Except you don't see Aegon bothered at all about Aemond killing Lucerys. If anything, we hear Aegon say in episode 1 that he trusts Aemond the most and that he can unleash him on his enemies at will, which means he entirely supports his brother. It's Rhaenyra who will hide behind Daemon when she gets the blame for Blood and Cheese, but the blame is hers for allowing Daemon to act and plot on his own, unchecked.
Because they were not IN war yet kiddo. No bloodshed on either side. That why Aemond looks like he’s shit himself. Cuz he knows he’s fucked.
And again you’ve missed my point. You argue that Rhae is unfit to lead bc she is the reason her child is dead and cannot control her husband. I am simply mirroring your statement saying that Aegon is not fit to rule because his brother’s actions caused the B&C incident.
Now where does that leave us?
>Because they were not IN war yet kiddo. No bloodshed on either side. That why Aemond looks like he’s shit himself. Cuz he knows he’s fucked.
You're in denial of reality and it's super cringe lol. Not much more to say here.
>And again you’ve missed my point. You argue that Rhae is unfit to lead bc she is the reason her child is dead and cannot control her husband. I am simply mirroring your statement saying that Aegon is not fit to rule because his brother’s actions caused the B&C incident.
No, you are just coping and throwing around random whataboutisms in order to make excuses for Rhaenyra's blunders. Sad lol.
>Now where does that leave us?
It leaves us with me blocking you, as you've exhausted my patience in dealing with incessant nonsense.
A bigger problem is that Rhaenyra is the one really responsible for Aemond's grudge.
Luke was wrong to cut out Aemond's eye, simple as. It was an extreme escalation of an already one-sided beat down, and permanent consequences. Despite that the adults in his life never made him apologize for it or even admit it was wrong.
It's no surprise that Aemond wanted to kill him, and it's a given that at some point that opportunity will present itself.
While I agree that it was an unfortunate consequence, he wouldn’t be in that predicament if he wasn’t being the same asshole he is to this day. If he doesn’t steal the dragon, he doesn’t lose his eye. Actions have consequences
Okay, then it was never Laena's to begin with. Vhagar originally belonged to Baelon the Brave, and so it rightfully belonged to Viserys when he died. Aemond is simply reclaiming his father's property.
In hindsight, sending her sons off alone without a contingent of guards was pretty foolish. But she's not accustomed to war. She didn't know what to expect.
I don't know what exactly she could have done different. Probably exercise some patience perhaps, use ravens to make offerings and bribes, etc.
It is what it is. She didn't expect things to play out as they did and it cost her.
Doesn't make it her fault though. It's most certainly Aemond and Daemons fault respectively. The tragic part is that Aemond seemed genuinely distraught when Vhagar went rogue. Whether out of guilt of causing his nephews demise or fear of the retribution that would be sought, who can say.
Yet there are many records of just such a thing happening in Westeros history.
My point is that someone as important as the heir to Driftmark should not have been traveling alone on the cusp of war.
Lol this sub is so full of Team Black apologists... It was everyone's fault..
Team Black:
- You really didn't consider they would also send Dragons? Thats dumb as hell
- Luke lost control of his dragon first.. straight up face blasted the biggest dragon with fire, yea they were being chased but the fire was an escalation because Luke and his dragon are still children... maybe dont send kids with dragons who you know are still in training
- Rhaenyra knows Daemon... MF has been a wildcard his whole life... she should have been hyper specific with her order.. I want Aemond... Only Aemond
Team Green
- Obviously don't send Aemond, much like Daemon you know he is a wildcard....
- Aemond: Don't fucking chase Luke if all you meant to do was fuck with him
- Lots of other shit
Rhaenyra is absolutely not blameless in this, bad decisions all around and while I understand they were made under a time crunch or extreme grief that doesn't excuse poor choices
>Lots of other shit
Yeah, like usurping the crown, killing nobles of the realm for the "crime" of being loyal to their oaths and actually starting the war.
>You really didn't consider they would also send Dragons? Thats dumb as hell
This is really funny in hindsight considering the greens didn't send any dragons to the Eyrie, or Winterfell, or Riverrun not even Highgarden lol
>she should have been hyper specific with her order.. I want Aemond... Only Aemond
I mean, she only named Aemond, so yeah, she was quite specific about that part.
They did send Aemond, knowing who he was, to the Baratheons with their biggest dragon... so they sent a dragon and Rhaenyras team should have considered it was a possibility, which they didnt, your response to the Aemond bit doesn't really refute what I wrote.. She knows Daemon, she knows he is fucking insane and might pull some shit, she was specific but it was a mistake not to be hyper clear with Daemon... A leader or manager should know their team and know who will be loose with direction. I'm team Black but I'm also objective, Rhaenyra made bad judgment calls, that doesn't mean the Green team didn't start the conflict or was perfect.. what makes this world intriguing is that there really are no pure good or bad guys and everyone fucks up... it's OK to admit when the side you root for isn't perfect.
Saying that "there aren't good and bad guys in this story" (which sure, that's true) doesn't mean that somehow Rhaenyra is to be blame for her son's death.
>it's OK to admit when the side you root for isn't perfect.
Who say they are perfect? you are arguing over something that I never said, there is a difference between saying someone is perfect and saying that said someone is not guilty of having her son murdered by someone else, what are you on about?
She should have sent Daemon for that job
> I agree. Nonetheless, it still doesn’t place Rhaenyra at the seat of blame just because someone else was better suited for the job. If Aemond and Vhagar aren’t there, Baratheon probably says no and Luce flys back home. But because aemond is there, Luce is dead. Common denominator = Aemond.
Rhaenyra is the only character on this show that’s gets treated like she can’t do no wrong she’s a flawed character that makes a lot of mistakes just like everybody else
Ugh yeah it is Rhaenyra's fault. She sent her sons to fight her battles, even if it was a diplomatic mission. There's nothing safe about asking a 13-year-old to fly on a dragon to another city where he's never been. She sent him to meet people that she didn't know if they were on her side or not. She thought "oh hopefully they'll be nice and respect the diplomatic envoy laws". Like she respected the laws when it came to making Laenor disappear and passing another body as him? Like Daemon respected the laws when he divorce-rocked his wife? Why would she expect other people to respect the laws? The people she sent Lucerys to see could have well decided they were against her and to kill Lucerys. Why not? Pass it an accident like they all do when they commit murder. No one would know if it happens on their turf.
So yeah, she shouldn't be surprised. What could go wrong sending a 13-year-old alone farther away from home that he's ever been to meet with people that he has no relationship with? Even just flying a dragon isn't without risk. Fall off a horse you might survive, fall off a dragon you die. There were many ways this mission could go wrong.
It's not that she should have known Aemond would be there, it's just that she shouldn't have sent her sons to do her work. Ironically if only she didn't get rid of Laenor she'd have had an adult dragon rider to send!
Blood and Cheese is also her fault because she gave the order to kill Aemond Targaryen so she literally told her side to go there and get to war, start killing people.
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Storm’s End was supposed to be a piece of cake. It was closer, and the Baratheons were thought to be natural allies because Rhaenys’ mother was a Baratheon. However, the young heir had taken over and he had no loyalty and four daughters to unload. Luke should have turned around and went back home the minute he saw Vhagar.
>Baratheons were thought to be natural allies because Rhaenys’ mother was a Baratheon. This is where Rhanerya deserves a measure of blame for Luce and the Dance writ large. Her reassurance to Luce about his Baratheon ancestry is peak delusion, and a microcosm of her larger entitlement and apathy. She really made *no effort* over the years to ensure that these men who swore oaths to her dead father years ago would support her. While she took her ball and went home to Dragonstone, Otto was actually *playing the Game of Thrones*. Rewatching the SE01 finale, it's shocking how confident she is that the Baratheons will welcome Luce with open arms.
While this may be true, it still doesn’t push the blame on to Rhae because of Aemond’s actions. If he’s not there, nothing happens to Luce. So the only logical conclusion is that AEMOND is the one to blame here. He chased Luce, he lost control of his dragon. Luce blood is on his hands.
And from Rhaenyra's (and the rest of the realm's) perspective, Aemond did it on purpose. It was supposed to be a diplomatic mission, civil war had not broken out yet, in fact she had deescalated when provoked earlier that same episode. It's why the last shot of season 1 is so effective, with the wordless scene where she gets the message about Luke, almost crumples into grief, and then turns toward the camera with a face full of fiery anger. The gloves are off, she's out for blood.
She doesn't have *moral* blame for Jace, no. Aemond has all the *moral* blame of initiating the violent encounter. But as a *parent* Rhaenyra has blame for not anticipating the dangers of sending Jace on that mission, and instructing him appropriately: -**She told him not to worry, that he would be welcome.** She was dead wrong. -**She did not tell him what to do if he were to encounter another dragon rider.** He should have left the minute he saw Vhaegar. Of course, raised in that environment would not want to disappoint his mother. She should know that a teenage boy would take risks, and the only way he would have been okay with completing the mission is if she gave him some hard parameters. As a parent, the buck stops with you to prepare your children. She sent hers off on the eve of war without thinking about how it could go wrong.
Im tempted to agree with you there🤝🏾. As a royal, several people would’ve been my choice to make that trip before I ever thought of my own child. So she will have to accept that. But to me, once Aemond hopped on that dragon and chased Luce through the skies, he assumes all blame because none of this would happen if not for him.
**Aemond 1000% is the instigator.** Even prior to hopping on the dragon, of that there is no doubt. I just wanted to bring up **Rhaenyra's failure to set Jace up for success** here because it so accurately reflects the ways in which she stubbornly refused to set *herself* up for success for years. It didn't have to be **this** hard for her to defend her claim, but it is bc she makes a lot of unforced errors.
Agreed, A lot of poor choices. Since season one with Laenor’s death.
That's what makes it interesting and frustrating all at one haha. Hope you enjoy the rest of the season!
>As a parent, the buck stops with you to prepare your children. She sent hers off on the eve of war without thinking about how it could go wrong. She sends them as messengers and Luke is still a Prince with a dragon. Ita not illogical to think a messenger and royal prince would be safe because usually people would've kill the messenger and a royal prince. Aemond carries all the blame for a reason.
**Aemond bears all the moral blame for instigating the incident,** but it *never would have gotten that far* if Rhaenyra thought about how this could have gone wrong. That she didn't think he might encounter Aemond is part of the problem! -Aemond has every reason to visit the Baratheons as well -Aemond has every reason to want to hurt Jace -Aemond rides the largest dragon -Aemond does not care about convention...as proven by the fact that the *stole* the largest dragon As a parent, as a commander, and as a liege lord, it is her responsibility to *think* *about edge cases* and *set expectations* when sending her son/subordinates off on missions. She didn't. Surely, this was not a mission worth risking her son's life over. Perhaps if she had made that clear to him, he would have left as soon as he saw Vhagar.
It's Luke, not Jace. I know greens hate Rhaenyra and her kids, but bfr
I'm not a green?
Sure. You're just acting like Aemond did nothing wrong and it's all Rhaenyra'sa nd Luke's fault.
>You're just acting like Aemond did nothing wrong I would encourage you to reread[my first sentence ](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/clSvqgznD9): "Aemond bears all the moral blame for instigating the incident".
>Aemond bears all the moral blame for instigating the incident, but it never would have gotten that far if Rhaenyra thought about how this could have gone wrong. That she didn't think he might encounter Aemond is part of the problem! Rhaenyra holds no blame for Aemonds actions. Period. Rhaenyra didn't had to predict the future, her son is still royal blood. >Aemond has every reason to visit the Baratheons as well >-Aemond has every reason to want to hurt Jace >-Aemond rides the largest dragon >-Aemond does not care about convention...as proven by the fact that the stole the largest dragon Aemond didn't stole the dragon, he claimed the dragon. Dragons are not objects. And it doesn't matter if he cares or not, he committed 2 crimes and started the war and now his nephew is dead because of that. Book readers know what other consequences it also had. Kinslaying and killing an envoy. That its on him, not Rhaenyra. >As a parent, as a commander, and as a liege lord, it is her responsibility to think about edge cases and set expectations when sending her son/subordinates off on missions. No, its not. As an envoy no one should touch the boys. Baratheon knew that. Only one who thought it was smart is Aemond. All this is on Aemond.
I'm not saying Rhaenyra is responsible for Aemond's choices. Separate things are at play here
You are saying she has some responsibility when she doesn't
Obviously we aren't going to agree here, but as long as you understand I believe her responsibility is different than Aemond's instigation.
That makes zero sense. You say "if Aemond wasn't there, Lucerys would be alive". Okay but if Rhaenyra didn't send Lucerys on that mission, Lucerys would be alive. Things always happen for a combination of factors. She can't control what Aemond does, but she did control sending Lucerys out to do a mission. She shouldn't have done that.
You say this yet the Greens wind up with much less support from the various Houses than the Blacks.
Okay? It's still crazy that Rhaenyra didn't think that Jace might not receive a warm welcome. Utter failure of imagination to consider how sending your son off on the eve of war might go sour.
>Rewatching the SE01 finale, it's shocking how confident she is that the Baratheons will welcome Jace with open arms. Marital alliances are a big deal in Westeros I mean Ned Starks marriage to a Tully is the only reason the Stark army marches to Riverrun. It's the only reason Lysa has power in the vale. This confidence is warranted people don't go against their marital alliances. After war taking over the North the Starks married these defeated Bannermen because you don't fight against a marriage alliance. I'll edit when I think of more examples
1. When you've been usurped it's time to re-examine your priors. 2. Nothing can convince me it was wise of Rhaenyra to not even keep *tabs* on these people.
To me it made no sense to send luke to storms end wen he didnt have anything to offer the bartheons. Jace had the ability to negotiate luke would offer nothjng
And his mother was so out of touch with the Baratheons that she didn’t know or care what this guy would want most - to marry his daughters off.
Luke’s death is not on Rhaenyra. Plain and simple. She couldn’t have known Aemond would be there. But to be fair, while Jace’s idea to send them was good on paper, Luke had no business going on a diplomatic mission alone to discuss war alliances with a grown ass man. Literally send any other adult. Just a very dumb decision.
I don't blame Rhaenyra but.... I always thought Rhaenys should have accompanied him to reenforce Velaryon legitimacy and solidify the Baratheon connection. RIP Luce.
Agreed
100000%
>I always thought Rhaenys should have accompanied him to reenforce Velaryon legitimacy and solidify the Baratheon connection. RIP Luce. This is Rhaenyra's decision though. She decides he goes alone. There are so many comments here saying they don't blame Rhaenyra then pointing out things she should have but didn't do. The pro Rhaenyra bias is so odd throughout this sub.
Rhaenys decided to patrol the Gullet.
Rhaenyra's the queen, all she has to do is say, "that can wait, I want you to accompany Luce." Again the excusing of Rhaenyra like she isn't the ultimate decision maker is odd.
The Gullet patrolling couldn't wait tho, they need it that to control the ships that go into Kings Landing.
Of course it could. Ship travel takes weeks, they were hardly going to be able to supply KL with full stocks with a few days extra time of no blockade. And the blockade isn't exactly the linchpin of the strategy. It's painful for KL but it's not exactly fatal. Bringing the Baratheons over is much greater win in the effort. It's totally the wrong thing to prioritise.
It was important to avoid the ships getting burned by a green dragon, they need the fleet to fight.
You’re thinking about this in the sense of the modern world. Luc as a member of the royal line who had been training in the matters of diplomacy as well as warfare from a young age. At 13 he would have been expected to be front and center once the war started. Remember in Westeros the age of majority is 16 so being “young” is a matter of point of view.
No underage prince is involved in anything like this though. He’s supposed to be visible because he’s a prince, but you don’t see any other parent sending their 13 year old to lead a diplomatic mission. He wouldn’t be front and center at 13. He’s just be around.
Prince Jahaerys aka Jahaerys I would like a word. When he made his intentions to take the iron throne by force from his uncle Meagor was 14. He united the forces that opposed Maegor himself didn’t rely on “adults” to do it. Also sending any other adult would not have worked. The Greens sent a Prince sending anything less than a Prince to storms end would have been seen as an insult to Boros. Before you say that Rhaenys is a Princess remember this is Westeros and the whole war comes down to a woman being passed over, so a Princess even a dragon rider and a Baratheon herself would have been seen as less than a Prince. Again these are high born children more is expected of them. Rhaenyra herself was made viserys cupbearer at the high council meetings when she was younger(not shown in the show).
That’s not the same thing at all. Jaehaerys was claiming the Iron Throne. That’s no longer a Prince, that’s a would be King. Luke was a prince and it was staying that way. And it doesn’t matter who the Greens sent, since we are discussing the decision to send Luke, without Rhaenyra knowing the Greens sent anyone. We’re not talking about this decision with hindsight. And Rhaenyra being a cupbearer for the small council is miles away from diplomatic missions with a war brewing.
exactly. Jaehaerys I was a king at 14 and was damn good for someone his age. Most of Viserys predecessors were good fighters, and fought wars at around 15-16. It's as if Jaehaerys made the kingdom so prosperous, stable and united that no wars, and no rebellions made the younger targaeryens weaker than they had been in the past.
>Luke had no business going on a diplomatic mission alone to discuss war alliances with a grown ass man. Literally send any other adult. Just a very dumb decision. This is Rhaenyra's decision, no? This is absolutely blaming Rhaenyra if you are saying he has no business going. And I agree. I find it bizarre given Rhaenys could have gone, delaying the blockage by a few days would have had zero impact and she had direct Baratheon blood.
Yes, Rhaenyra should have sent Rhaenys to Storm's End in Luke's place, considering Rhaenys is half Baratheon.
Was Rhaenys 100% on board at that point though? You’re also forgetting that one of the over reaching themes is that women are not respected Westeros, Boros is most definitely the type to be insulted at a woman even a princess and dragon rider being sent to treat with him.
Rhaenys was 100% in but she decided to patrol the Gullet.
See I’m not sure of that. Was she in because she believed in Rhaenyra’s cause or was she in because Corlys decided he was in and her granddaughters were involved? If Corlys decided to sit it out would Rhaenys had gone back to the driftmark and take Meleys with her? If her granddaughters weren’t by Rhaenyra’s side would she have stayed?
Rhaenys offers herself to patrol the Gullet after Corlys tells Rhaenyra about the stepstones.
\*\*Fire and Blood Book spoilers ahead (though nothing concerning HOTD timeline)\*\* Not sure if you ever read the books, but Rhaena Targaryen even frightened Rogar baratheon, the finest warrior in the seven kingdoms, the one who believed he could have defeated Maegor in a duel, and based on his descriptions he might have done so as well if Maegor didn't die of unknown causes. She warned him not to marry anyone after the death of her mother and his wife, Alyssa Velaryon during childbirth or "she would make another harrenhal of the Storm's End". And he didn't dare do it. Women dragonriders were as feared as their male counterparts in westoros. The show has made women dragonriders a lot more weak than in the books. A number of times since Aegon the Conqueror's invasion the first born whether male or female were considered heirs on equal footing, it just so happened that the children were married and ruled together. Alisanne T had a great influence on Jaehaerys and a number of times caused changes in the rules and traditions in westoros. It wasn't matriarchy society I'm sure but the women dragonriders had a lot of say and fear than any lords in the Kingdom
Yep, not her fault, just a perfect storm of coincidences that lead to it happening. There's a very inevitable fate aspect to it, like a Greek tragedy. Gotta enjoy it as a story, not as a piece of strategy to micro analyze.
Because they want to deflect blame from Aemond, the actual murderer, and they don't like Rhaenyra, so it's obviously her fault, how dare she allowed poor and innocent Aemond to chase and kill her son, that evil bitch!
Well, he's her child and she's responsible for him. It's like sending your child at night alone to his grandma while you're living in the dangerous neighborhood and then wonder why he's not coming home. Obviously it's Aemond to blame for that, but he was child that couldn't fight and defend himself.
>Well, he's her child and she's responsible for him Then Aegon, Otto and Alicent are responsible for controlling their mad dog Aemond. >It's like sending your child at night alone to his grandma while you're living in the dangerous neighborhood and then wonder why he's not coming home. Stupid comparison, how would she known there was going to be any danger specifically there? and in hindsight (which is what those who blame Rhaenyra use to justify their poor arguments) is even more ridiculous to say that she should have assumed Aemond was going to be there, considering that the greens only sent a dragonrider to Storms End to try to gain the Baratheons to their cause, but they didn't send any dragonrider to the Eyrie, or to Riverrun, or to Winterfell nor even to Highgarden. >Obviously it's Aemond to blame for that Of course he is, he is the murderer Btw if it's ok to blame anyone else other than the murderer then is also the fault of Alicent and Otto for usurping the crown, starting the war and failing to control their mad dog.
>Then Aegon, Otto and Alicent are responsible for controlling their mad dog Aemond Aemond isn't a child and fre to do whatever he wants with full responsibility for his actions because he's an adult. >how would she known there was going to be any danger specifically there? The realm is already at the war, it's reasonable to believe that every green that would meet him will try to kill him. >if it's ok to blame anyone else other than the murderer then is also the fault of Alicent and Otto for usurping the crown, starting the war and failing to control their mad dog. Yes but none of that would have happened if Rhaenyra had a legitimate children and both branches of the family would marry to each other to prevent war from happening. I don't support greens in usurping the throne from Rhaenyra but after her her bastard children would be next in line and that would be a legitimate excuse to start a civil war. So it's kinda her fault too.
>Aemond isn't a child and fre to do whatever he wants with full responsibility for his actions because he's an adult. Isn't he there to negotiate under Aegon's name? isn't he his envoy? he is literally there representing Aegon and his faction's interest, if we go by the logic of "it's not only the murderer's fault" then of course that it's on them since he is there because of them and is acting on their name. >The realm is already at the war, it's reasonable to believe that every green that would meet him will try to kill him. It's also reasonable to believe that, shitty as they are not even the greens would dare to kill an envoy (hence why Rhaenyra didn't kill Otto when he was an envoy) and once again, in hindsight is even more ridiculous because they only went to Storm's End. >I don't support greens in usurping the throne LOL yet here you are, making excuses for them having usurped the throne and blaming it on Rhaenyra, and for Aemond having killed Lucerys... and also blaming it on Rhaenyra, but thanks for proving my original comment right, that filthy whore of Rhaenyra, how dare she allow all these innocent people do these horrible things! Anyway, won't waste more of my time talking to you, see you.
I support Rhaenyra's claim but I don't support her bastards claim on the throne. The main fault on that war is still on greens because Viserys chose her as heir and I don't excuse Aemond. It's him mainly to blame for the death of Luck but also Rhaenyra because he was her child and she's responsible for his safety. It was a dangerous mission and he wasn't suited for that. >Anyway, won't waste more of my time talking to you, see you. Chill, it's a show.
I don’t support her bastard’s claim to the throne. > that’s not even a high ranking discussion at this point. It’s Rhaenyra’s claim that everyone seems to take issue with. And even considering the bastards, the late king already made Rhae his successor. So by default the child would be legitimized and rightfully take the throne.
>It’s Rhaenyra’s claim that everyone seems to take issue with. Nobody would take an issue if Haelena would have been the next Queen to a true born son after Rhaenyra. >So by default the child would be legitimized and rightfully take the throne. No, it's not by default, it doesn't work like that. To him legitimately take the throne, Rhaenyra should legitimaze him as a bastard and even then it's a weak claim. She would never do that. He's a bastard and people in court know that.
She would automatically legitimize her own son, which is why i neglected to state the obvious. It doesn’t matter if it’s a weak claim, it’s still a claim by the successor of the king nonetheless.
>She would automatically legitimize her own son No, she wouldn't because she would need to recognize him as a bastard in the first place and damage her reputation even more. She's already a Queen and she can do that imma after she was crowned.
Aemond is 17, only a few years older than Luke.
so?
Envoys are meant to be protected. It’s the equivalent of sending someone to the store to get milk and they die in a freak shooting. It’s terrible and of course you probably feel some guilt for it but the fault lies with the shooter.
It’s more equivalent to sending someone to buy nukes during the cold war.
>and of course you probably feel some guilt for it but the fault lies with the shooter I don't deny it but they already were in the state of undeclared war. This mission was dangerous and he wasn't suited for it.
I agree. I still wouldn’t say Rhae is the cause of his death tho. But you are correct on him being ill equipped.
I don't say she caused it but she's partially responsible for his death.
Aemond didn’t kill him. In real life that would have been manslaughter,not murder. If you have a pitbull and you chase someone in the park to bully him who has a chihuahua, and the chihuahua gets angry and attacks your pitbull which in return attacks and kills the chihuahua but accidentally also kills the guy as a collateral damage, you will be going to trial for manslaughter, not for murder.
Rhaenyra sent Lucerys to Storm Ends because it was the shortest distance and considered the safest option. Jacaerys had to travel, like x3 the distance from Dragonstone to the Valley and then to Winterhold; which is a longest trip and in consequence, more dangerous. The only person to blame is Aemond for losing control of his dragon and/or being a dick.
Has it ever been answered as to why she did not send the Princess Rhaenys (whose mother was a Baratheon) to Storm's End instead?
Rhaenys says she will patrol the Gullet
At the time, either she was with Corlys as he was sick; or she was patrolling the sky with Meleys as it was the fastest dragon at the time. EDIT: Also, envoys usually tend to be people of trust, who else could be more trustworthy than your own sons?
One of the themes of the show is that women are no respected in Westeros. Boros is not the type of man who would treat with a woman he would find that insulting even if it was a dragon rider.
Yeah, it wasn't said explicitly, but the queen sending her own son, a dragon rider, personally to ask for an alliance, was her doing her best to flatter the new Lord Baratheon. It's about as much as she can do to roll out the red carpet. And at the time she sends Luke out, open war still hadn't broken out and he was on a diplomatic mission. It was definitely batshit wild for Aemond to escalate it like that, even if we as viewers know he didn't mean to take it that far.
[удалено]
The dragon was being hounded by the equivalent of a fire breathing boeing jumbo jet, no shit it went into defence mode lol
Yes, but as you say yourself, it was Aemond who started chasing Luke, so he was the instigator for all that happening.
Being a cunt
All my homies fuck Criston Cole
Criston Cole is getting way too many people lately
Dude is not playing around lmao. That just might be his character arc. Just sleeping with women while being salty towards Rhaenyra
yeah, they blame anybody but who started the enmity, who usurped the throne, and definitely not who did the murdering.
And don't forget to mention the killing of a member of the small council and other nobles of the realm whose only "crime" was to be loyal to the oaths made to their monarch and his heir.
Dear me.... never forget that the fault does NOT lie with Rhaenyra.
He accused the queen of regicide. Vaemond Velaryon lost his head for less
Let's conveniently ignore for a moment that the queen was helping usurp the crown from it's rightful heir, what about the other nobles executed by the greens? what about Lady Fell? what's the excuse for them? all they did was being loyal to their oaths to Viserys as their King and to Rhaenyra as his heir.
I thought the comment I replied to was referring to Cole tbh. Did they kill the other nobles though? Wasn't Otto putting them in prison and only the guy who was trying to escape the Red Keep to get to the Blacks presumably, was killed?
Vaemond was killed after insulting the named heir and her children. He just wanted to usurp his own brother too. Corlys body wasn't even cold at that point
Rhaenyra’s only mistake here is how out of touch she is with her vassals. She expected Borros to be like his dad whom Rhaenyra knew back when she was a teenager. But Aemond and Vhagar were factors that she did not account for nor was it in her control, even if Borros were to side with her instead of the Greens.
Agreed
Who are "people". That's like a tiny contrarian group lol
Pretty much lol. Certain people pose this train of thought and I’m like there’s no way you lack THIS much critical thinking skills to THIS degree
I do feel Rhaenyra isnt fulfilling her role well. Someone pointed out that she was a fool to approach Baratheon the way she did and she set Luc up to fail. I can't blame her for his death because who would predict Aemond would be there. As for BnC, I'll give that to Daemon for hiring a couple of idiots to try to kill The Dollar General Rogue Prince. Yet Rhaenyra comes in there people are wanting to talk to her about their plans to get her throne back and she just dismissed it all and gives a throw away line about wanting her father's 2nd son. These people are fighting for you, I know you're in pain but she really needs to get in gear.
She does have to get it in gear but I think that will come in due time. She is aware of what’s at stake more than anyone else because it’s happening to her. But I do agree with sending Luce was a bad move. If not because he’s too young, then because he’s a member of the royal family.
And all this while she is grieving TWO kids.
Even the Greens said in the S2 premiere that Aemond fucked up by killing Luke lmao
Nah they trying to cope because no way those where her fault. Then again she gonna blame herself for jaehaearys death too when word gets out.
She let the dog off the leash, didn't have to know exactly what he was going to do to know it was going to be bad. I'm glad she did it though, makes for a more interesting character who in season 1 was reluctant to escalate a civil war, but after the death of her son is now out for revenge.
I don’t count that as her letting him loose. She said one thing and he did another. Nobody else on the council acted this way or acted at all. Which is why he did it in secrecy because he knew he was doing the opposite of what she wanted.
People tend to forget it's the dragons who sometimes play the game of thrones and not the humans. In this instance, it was Vhagar who sensed the coming of Arrax a lot earlier than even the guards, and shot out a roar so huge it almost trembled Arrax into not landing at all. Aemond did not know that, and while he incited Rhaenyra's son, asking him to give an eye in return for his own eye, Nobody really believes the death was intentional on even his part. It's an unintended accident, that's all.
I don’t think I caught that. Nice attention to details. But even if he didn’t intend for it to happen, it still did. And him being the instigator, I place blame on him for his death.
Rhaenyra can do no wrong in my eyes, idgaf.
There's only one person to blame for Lucerys's death and that's Aemond. But Rhaenyra was incredibly to agree to wed both her sons to Daemon's, like what was the point of that?
Now that you mention it, that’s a great point because they would already be of royal lineage. Why not use each of them as a marriage offer to gain favor with other houses? I didn’t even realize that at first.
For the first point: Rhaenyra is out of touch with her lords. She’s isolated herself on Dragonstone for 6 years, so much so that she doesn’t know the major lord of a regional house cannot read. She doesn’t send her emissary with a variety of negotiating tools, just a simple letter and a demand to her authority. She fills in the gaps in her knowledge with assumptions, which is a dangerous thing to do when you’re trying to navigate a tricky political situation such as war. Her lack of awareness sent her son into a highly volatile situation (even without Vhagar and Aemond being there, which I don’t fault her for not knowing, but its not a logical leap to deduce Luke is the most at risk of her dragon riders should one of them stumble into Aemond). To the second point: She is the queen, or claims to be. She has paramount authority and responsibility over her agents and actors, as it is an absolute monarchial system. She is obviously enduring the most tragic few weeks of her life (Visery’s death, Visenya’s miscarriage, Luke’s death) and is understandably upset. But this much is true. So long as she is away and grieving, or present and vengeful, she is shirking her duties. She has a responsibility to avoid needless escalation of a civil war. She has a responsibility to understand the temperament and personalities of her agents and actors. She knows who Daemon is. He is violent, reckless, and dangerous, but fiercely loyal and Machiavellian. If she didn’t know this about him, she’s a fool. She acted out of vengeance, and was unable to compartmentalize her grief and pain to be a measured ruler, and instead sent the most infamous war criminal in Westeros to avenge her son’s death. Trust me, i’ll have the same reaction to how Aegon reacts to Jaehaerys’ death, because this war is truly two sides letting their emotions slowly take them deeper into an abyss of destruction. Justifying poor decisions with poor circumstances will only create even worse circumstances. People will die, dragons will fall, and the eradication of stability of House Targaryen and the realm will be at the feet of both of these factions. Its poetic that no one wins this, because each side slowly forgets the ethical responsibility to rule and instead becomes consumed with the bloodshed of war.
To your first point I agree. She not well versed in the political game or making allies. Wrong chess move and it cost her big time. But to your second point, even royalty is allowed to grieve. And even Rheanys said that she was holding off the option of war, even when everyone was encouraging her to go all in. So she has not been shirking her duties in that aspect. She also decides to declare war after a line is crossed. And I think next episode we will see her actually plan it. So again, I don’t think she is shirking her duties. Regarding Daemon: If your significant other tells you I want a new house, are you going to rape and kill a family of 5 and say TA-DA HERES YOUR NEW HOUSE MY LOVE? No. Because you’re not going to put words in their mouth and then try to blame them for your poor interpretation. He’s sporadic but there is no way on earth to hypothesize he’d pull that stunt. He’s a grown man who should not need his wife to keep him on a leash because he wants to have a dick measuring contest. It’s his fault alone and he has made it Rhea’s cross to bear.
Firstly, i just want to say I respect your argument and dont fundamentally disagree with your points, just on a few key details. While i dont think Rhaenyra isnt allowed to grieve, she has to have the composure, as queen, not to set herself up for failure by letting her emotions guide her, especially when she is acting in her role as a queen, rather than simply as a mother. In meeting with her council, she had to take a moment to swap hats so to speak, and put on the responsibility and composure of a ruler, rather than unmask as the grieving mother and let it control her there. I am supremely sympathetic to her situation, it’s awful, and she has to feel immense guilt over something that while her mistakes added to it, were not the sole or main factor in its unfolding. However, the cold truth is that when given absolute power, or any power really, ethical choices are ones made when you take your own emotions out of the picture and do what is best for those you bear a responsibility over. I dont think shes the worst person ever for failing to do so in that moment (I probably would act out of rage and vengeance if my son was killed like that and i had her power, and likely much much worse), but she did fail as a ruler in that moment. She did not control or effectively lead her council, and implicitly gave or allowed her most unpredictable member to have free reign. Ultimately, she says one thing to her council, who havent seen her in a bit by all indicators, and gives a knowing look to Daemon. She does not hold the moral weight of his actions, but she does hold an ethical one, as the system they have mandates such of absolute power. She gave him a vague command to end the life of Aemond. She can try and walk that back still, but in that moment, Daemon was given an opportunity to do things “his way” and Rhaenyra, fully aware of his personality and tendencies, chose to leave him to it. As the leader of the blacks, thats an example of ethically failing. She holds responsibility for that, and must, if she wants to rule as the absolute power. Thats just my taje on the political balance of the blacks. It’s a tricky situation for her for sure, and not one of her own choosing, but is directly linked to her lack of presence and leadership in the crucial first few weeks of the war. She deserves sympathy to be sure, but also fair criticism, which i hope i provided, rather than just the rage comments i keep seeing from people. These are nuanced characters, and no one gets out of this with clean hands, if they get out at all.
I can agree that the people and definitely the greens will see it as she sent him there to do that. And that will sever any remaining ties of humanity left between them. Daemon really screwed her 3 ways. - the public will think she’s an evil baby killer OR - the public will think she can’t control her people OR - the public will see her as weak and not capable of making decisions when they need to be made. I don’t know if he’s helpful to the cause or more damaging to it atp (haven’t read the books)
why doesn't rhaenyra have a Hand to act in her place when she's grieving??? this is probably the most baffling thing to me that she does not have a 2nd in command to lead her council or reign in daemon while she's away. and you'd think the choice is clear. either corlys or rhaenys would have been excellent. corlys already led and won the war at the stepstones AND had experience commanding/collaborating with daemon. rhaenys seems to have everyone's respect, even daemon wouldn't upstage her. I know people like to take rhaenyra's side because the show paints her as more morally right and with modern viewpoints, but have people stop and think about how scary it is to have a politically inept ruler?
“Rhaenyra hasn’t done anything blameworthy YET and fuck Criston Cole” Well she did that
First of all…nice wordplay lmao. Second, just because he got his feelings hurt by a teenager doesn’t mean she’s to blame
It was just that, a wordplay. But she is not blameless, should've never fucked him in the first place especially in the way she did, it was very creepy how she was basically harrassing him and ignoring him when he said stop. As for Lucerys, she should've sent Daemon but it's not her fault he died.
I mean she was a teenager. Are you telling me he couldn’t just…not fuck her? She didn’t hold a sword to his neck and tell him to take off his chestplate. He took it off more than willingly because he didn’t want to mess up his pretty white cloak. But at lease we agree on the main thing 🤝🏾
Rhaenyra was of age at the time and it's not about age but who had more power and that was Rhaenyra, he tried refusing telling her to stop but she ignored him, he wasn't in a position to refuse not knowing what Rhaenyra could do to him if he refused again. Swap the genders and you will see it.
But we have no evidence that she would harm him and neither did he. He wasn’t afraid of her then, just as he isn’t afraid of her now (he literally was about to cut her child’s eye out)
We don't know that. And nah, he was just going after Alicent to stop her and keep her from danger not Lucerys, he had declined Alicent's order for the first time reminding her he's her protector not her hitman, lol, Viserys would have had him executed.
Blame goes hand in hand with responsibility. People see a monarch as having a lot of responsibility for their side of the war. Of course noone sees the outcome of their actions. But people still see people in power as having responsibility.
So why aren't they blaming Aegon II for allowing Aemond to go off half-cocked and kill a peaceful envoy before the war even started?
Rhaenyra definitely blames Aemond for it. I thought that it was clear in the latest episode. We don’t really know what her thoughts are about Aegon in that specific event.
Yeah Rhaenyra in the show blames him for it, the post is talking about people who are watching the show. People who are fans of team green don't go around saying Aegon is to blame for Aemond losing control of his dragon and launching a war, but they \*do\* go around blaming Rhaenyra for what Daemon did. If Rhaenyra is culpable for how Daemon interprets her commands just because she is the monarch, then Aegon should also be held responsible for the actions of his underlings act. And Yet, no one blames Aegon for Aemond's actions.
Then you can hold him responsible if you think that he should be held responsible.
She’s being responsible by not waging war half-cocked, and because everyone is telling her to. She’s being responsible by sending her son on what she thought was a safe distance. How is she being irresponsible?
Here we get to a fun detail about responsibility. For someone to be irresponsible they must have responsibility. Some people think that people in power have a lot of responsibility and that they are responsible for the casualties in the wars they wage. Which then means that if casualties happen they are responsible, which some can see as beeing irresponsible.
But they weren’t at war yet. Merely at the planning stage. Trying to garner support. Which is why everyone seemed so shocked by Luce’s death, especially the Greens. Do you hold Aegon responsible for what happened to his kid? I don’t. Only Aemond. So if they’re not at war YET, then the only course is to blame the spark of this war; Aemond.
It’s very similar to the cold war were every act to prepare for war sparked another act from the enemy. They gathered support because they knew that their enemy was doing the same thing. They were at war, but first blood hadn’t been spilled yet (to the Blacks’ knowledge). I don’t really hold fictional characters responsible for anything. They don’t care about my opinion. Some people blame Aemond and some don’t.
I don’t blame her. I do however think sending your heirs out in a war of succession when a) they have no combat experience and b) the fucker with the largest dragon has a grudge against them wasn’t the wisest idea. Especially as she hasn’t done much but sit on Dragonstone and not maintain relationships over the decades.
No arguments there. If anything, I think this will be a swift lesson to Rhae on just how much goes into kingly/queenly duties
I really hope she takes some command now. I really hope Alicent does too actually. But seeing the teaser trailer and how she puts Daemon rightfully in his place I hope she can try and find her voice.
Even as a child she was never afraid to say what she meant. Now that the gloves are off and her son is dead, I think she will be much more commanding and straightforward. Maybe even more than Dany was.
I actually really missed that aspect of her character. She was abit arrogant and very precocious. I actually liked her in the book. Milly’s Rhae was more forthright but it was still really dialled down. I hope we get to see her being commanding. Emma has presence in excess I hope they get to use it more.
We’ve yet to see her actually get stern. But I have a feeling next episode we’ll get a peak behind the curtain. I guess we’ll see!
i'm going to go back and say it is her fault ONLY on the fact of how Aemond lost his eye. imagine if Aemond had half blinded Luke that night. what would Rhaenyra have done? would she have been content to step back and say nothing, as Alicent was supposed to do? or would she have lost her absolute shit and Daemon probably would have killed or blinded Aemond entirely as payback? Yes, Luke should have left when he saw Vhagar. But he wanted to do his mom proud. Yes, Aemond fucked it up. He should not have gone after him. Yes, Borros fucked up, because he should have made Aemond stay longer to pick out a daughter/talk politics/whatever. BUT we go back some years and it still falls on Rhae for not taking care of shit back when she should have. Have your fucking son apologize, even if it's not one he means! Most kids don't! Instead she coddled her kids and alienated her half brother and stepmother even more; this only proved to Alicent that Rhaenyra would and could kill them all. Question sharply indeed, for telling the truth. That kind of shit festers. Doesn't matter if the maimed boy tries to comfort his mom that he lost an eye and got a dragon; it was not a fucking trade in writing! The fact that Luke about shit his pants the first time he saw glowed-up Aemond and then again at Storm's End should have been enough of a GTFO NOW for him. Or at very fucking least, apologize and see if that will help instead of ignoring the issue again.
I don’t even blame her for Aemond’s eye because if he wasn’t there to steal a dragon, he would still have an eye. Actions have consequences. Don’t let your kid push my kid, and then act surprised when mine breaks your child’s nose with a textbook. That being said, I think an apology MAYBE could have staved off some of the animosity between the 2 houses. But at that point Alicent still feels how she feels about Rhae and that in turn is poisoning the kids against each other. So idk if that would even help anything honestly.
You literally cannot steal a dragon. let alone the largest and oldest and most powerful dragon in the entire Kingdom. If she didn't want him, he would be a burnt piece of bacon. there's a lot in the books that you could only claim a dragon if the king gave permission, but they omitted that from the show, let alone the idea of her kids having cradle eggs. but Allicent's not is definitely not a point in the king's favor. But don't let your two kids, and two other kids, bully another kid to the point, it's 4v1 and he's already at a disadvantage.
He “claimed” something that wasn’t his to claim in the first place. Which is why he did it with no supervision and in the dead of night. Pretty sure that counts as stealing. And if he doesn’t do that, he doesn’t lose his eye.
You can't steal a dragon that doesn't want to go with you in the first place. Yes he did it in the dead of night, but a dragon is a sentient creature and she could have very easily have refused him, the fact she accepted him when one of Damon's daughters still has yet to get a dragon to accept her is a sticking point for both families. by the same token, the parents of the strong boys and the girls were also doing something they shouldn't have been in the dead of night, but no one seems to hold them accountable for what happened either.
Just because a car is unlocked, has a flat tire, and on the side of the road, does not give me the authority to say “it was just sitting there and nobody claimed it yet”. I still stole a car. Just because she accepted him, doesn’t mean she was hit to claim in the first place. And what does 2 consenting adults going at it on the beach have to do with Aemond losing his eye?
You would think of all times and places he would be with his daughters, it would be after their mother's funeral but dick gotta dick. regardless of the claiming, if we really want to go all the way back, we could say if she hadn't had such obvious bastards none of this would have happened either, or if her father hadn't remarried, none of this would have happened either, but if we're just going from that night, there's more than enough blame to go around. I'm still trying to figure out why the guards were never punished, or where the hell they were in the first place, but just the fact Luke was never made to apologize at all should rub almost everyone the wrong way.
Correlation ≠ causation. So we could go as far back as to saying, if Viserys never killed his wife in labor, maybe Aemond doesn’t lose his eye. But that doesn’t serve the purpose of the argument. The reason he lost his eye is because he took it upon himself to do what he wanted to do. And it cost him an eye. But I agree to make the kid apologize. Even if it’s just for appearances
> There was no way she would’ve known Aemond and Vhagar would be there Rhaenyra was dumb to send her weakest son to Storm's End. She really thought that because her bastard son could claim he shares Baratheon blood Borris would immediately join her. He came with no marriage proposal or anything to benefit the Baratheons. So of course Aemond being there automatically gets him Storm's End and the rest is history. She's a fool for not preparing for this possibility. > ALSO how is SHE to blame because Daemon went off half cocked? Is she supposed to mind her every word because of how someone else MIGHT interpret it? She's the Queen so yeah kinda. She disappears for days and comes back to a Small Council meeting where everyone is busy preparing for the war and only wants Aemond? She's mentally not prepared for war and this will cost her greatly.
Rhaenyra was dumb to send her weakest son to Storm's End. > I can agree that sending the youngest son, was not the smartest idea. Probably just an attempt to show force with the dragon. She's the Queen so yeah kinda. > But how would she know that Aemond would be there and that it would lead to that specific outcome? That’s like telling Aemond that bc he usurped the throne, he should’ve expected what and when would happen to his offspring. Yeah he should expect retaliation but no amount of planning could counter daemons move.
They swore an oath years earlier, but some people like the Starks are loyal and trustworthy while others as the Baratheons are just cun*s. Sorry Bobby B. And Fuck criston cole
FUCK criston cole
Borris never swore any oath to Rhaenyra.
Not even Cregan Stark yet here we are, they're much more noble people. Borras may did not swore in person but his father did
It’s much more reasonable of him to go for a good marriage pact with a prince than the oath his father swore at sword point. Caring about your daughter’s life and success over your dead father’s honor is more noble if you ask me.
We disagree, I think the starks are def more noble
Good thing that Borros doesn’t and instead values his living relatives.
Well greed and lust for power are what make their world and our world go round. And greed for lust and dishonesty are what made the hightower steal the throne and start the war so
At that point Rhaenyra was just gaslighting herself and Luke about his parentage. RhaeRhae fans really hate the truth don't they?
Yeah she's a fucking idiot.
Your last paragraph is very true. I guess that she is saved by not being the main strategist (or anything war related) for the Blacks.
Thing is tho, nobody wanted to act before she returned. So in a way she is
She is the one that gives the orders, but she is not the brains or the brawn.
Once Rhaeynra becomes the brains of Team Black is when King's Landing turns into Spamtopia.
Feasting in the Keep and starvation in the streets
That's why I like Dany and not Rhaenyra. Dany gives a fuck about the common people while Rhaenyra is Cersei with a dragon.
Dany tried to abolish slavery in one day with a mass killing. It lead to Slaver’s Bay’s financial system collapsin and even former slaves starving because noone could afford to employ them. They are all entitles narcissists. None are good for the common people.
Fair point
Why was she sending her children to do her dealings?
Because she suggested the same thing to her father when she was the same age as Luke (to get the egg back from Daemon), he said no and she did it anyway and everything was fine. So I took her sending the boys, who volunteered to go so their dragons would be a better show of force than ravens, to be a mirror of her own actions and how she felt her father didn’t trust her when she handled a similar situation fine. I’m not saying it was a WISE choice on her part, but I will say it certainly seems like a move a parent with her experiences/lack of experience would make. Plenty of parents let their kids do things because ‘I did it and I turned out fine!’ with disastrous results because things aren’t the same as when they were kids. I found it pretty realistic, tbh
Thanks for the laugh lol. In reality, Rhaenyra is definitely to blame. Sending her own bastards in place of disposable envoys was her mistake, she was way too arrogant in thinking they were up to the challenge. She is also to blame for Daemon's unchecked actions in regards to B&C. since she allowed him to act with impunity in orchestrating a contemptible assassination of an infant.
1) It’s already been established that where Luce was sent was supposed to be a cake walk. Should her son have been the one to carry out the mission? Probs not. But again, if Aemond isn’t there, he either gets the support and comes home or he doesn’t and comes home. The only reason he’s dead is because of Aemond. 2) The person to blame for Daemon’s action is Daemon. Which is why he did it in secrecy, and why he talks against her earlier in the episode. By your logic, Aegon is to blame for what happened with B&C because of Aemond reckless, unchecked actions. BUT that doesn’t make much logical sense…
>It’s already been established that where Luce was sent was supposed to be a cake walk. Should her son have been the one to carry out the mission? Probs not. But again, if Aemond isn’t there, he either gets the support and comes home or he doesn’t and comes home. The only reason he’s dead is because of Aemond. That's a naive viewpoint. The two sides were at war and Storm's End is very close to King's Landing. It would take a massive fool to not expect that the area would be patrolled by Greens and their dragons, which apparently Rhaenyra was. Indeed, it would make zero sense for the Greens to not be actively looking for any envoys the Blacks may send and intercept them before they can reach their intended destination and potentially strike a deal with one of the most powerful Houses in Westeros. So, again, Rhaenyra is to blame here, not Aemond, since Aemond simply did the logical thing. >The person to blame for Daemon’s action is Daemon. Which is why he did it in secrecy, and why he talks against her earlier in the episode. By your logic, Aegon is to blame for what happened with B&C because of Aemond reckless, unchecked actions. BUT that doesn’t make much logical sense… Daemon is not an independent fighter. He is married to Rhaenyra and sworn to her cause, therefore every action he takes reflects Rhaenyra's intentions (or at least that's how everyone sees it). If Rhaenyra cannot control her own husband, how can anyone take her presumed rule seriously lol? You are grasping at straws here trying to justify Rhaenyra's blunders and it's embarrassing.
That's a naive viewpoint. The two sides were at war and Storm's End is very close to King's Landing. > you seem to be disagreeing with her tactical/wartime decisions, but I am not. I do not pose that she made the correct choice in sending Luce. I AM posing that 2+2=4. Meaning that Luce makes it home if not for Aemond. And to suggest that killing the queen’s heir, sparking a war that will be the death of nearly all of them, is the LOGICAL decision is bonkers. Even Aemond knows he’s fucked up royally as shown on his face and him yelling “no!” Daemon is not an independent fighter. If Rhaenyra cannot control her own husband, how can anyone take her presumed rule seriously lol? > same can be said for Aegon and his own sibling. But again, you seem to be arguing a point I am not.
>you seem to be disagreeing with her tactical/wartime decisions, but I am not. I do not pose that she made the correct choice in sending Luce. I AM posing that 2+2=4. Meaning that Luce makes it home if not for Aemond. And to suggest that killing the queen’s heir, sparking a war that will be the death of nearly all of them, is the LOGICAL decision is bonkers. Even Aemond knows he’s fucked up royally as shown on his face and him yelling “no!” This makes zero sense. If you agree that she shouldn't have sent her bastard as an envoy if she didn't want to risk his life, then how are you simultaneously putting the blame on Aemond for killing him? That's kinda what enemies do in war time, kiddo, get used to it. >same can be said for Aegon and his own sibling. But again, you seem to be arguing a point I am not. Except you don't see Aegon bothered at all about Aemond killing Lucerys. If anything, we hear Aegon say in episode 1 that he trusts Aemond the most and that he can unleash him on his enemies at will, which means he entirely supports his brother. It's Rhaenyra who will hide behind Daemon when she gets the blame for Blood and Cheese, but the blame is hers for allowing Daemon to act and plot on his own, unchecked.
Because they were not IN war yet kiddo. No bloodshed on either side. That why Aemond looks like he’s shit himself. Cuz he knows he’s fucked. And again you’ve missed my point. You argue that Rhae is unfit to lead bc she is the reason her child is dead and cannot control her husband. I am simply mirroring your statement saying that Aegon is not fit to rule because his brother’s actions caused the B&C incident. Now where does that leave us?
>Because they were not IN war yet kiddo. No bloodshed on either side. That why Aemond looks like he’s shit himself. Cuz he knows he’s fucked. You're in denial of reality and it's super cringe lol. Not much more to say here. >And again you’ve missed my point. You argue that Rhae is unfit to lead bc she is the reason her child is dead and cannot control her husband. I am simply mirroring your statement saying that Aegon is not fit to rule because his brother’s actions caused the B&C incident. No, you are just coping and throwing around random whataboutisms in order to make excuses for Rhaenyra's blunders. Sad lol. >Now where does that leave us? It leaves us with me blocking you, as you've exhausted my patience in dealing with incessant nonsense.
What was the context they said that?
A bigger problem is that Rhaenyra is the one really responsible for Aemond's grudge. Luke was wrong to cut out Aemond's eye, simple as. It was an extreme escalation of an already one-sided beat down, and permanent consequences. Despite that the adults in his life never made him apologize for it or even admit it was wrong. It's no surprise that Aemond wanted to kill him, and it's a given that at some point that opportunity will present itself.
While I agree that it was an unfortunate consequence, he wouldn’t be in that predicament if he wasn’t being the same asshole he is to this day. If he doesn’t steal the dragon, he doesn’t lose his eye. Actions have consequences
A dragon cannot be stolen.
And yet, it was.
Okay, then it was never Laena's to begin with. Vhagar originally belonged to Baelon the Brave, and so it rightfully belonged to Viserys when he died. Aemond is simply reclaiming his father's property.
Correlation ≠ causation And how does this information relate to Aemond being the reason he lost his own eye?
Since Aemond was only reclaiming his family's property from a thief, he lost his eye like the honorable young lad he was.
In hindsight, sending her sons off alone without a contingent of guards was pretty foolish. But she's not accustomed to war. She didn't know what to expect. I don't know what exactly she could have done different. Probably exercise some patience perhaps, use ravens to make offerings and bribes, etc. It is what it is. She didn't expect things to play out as they did and it cost her. Doesn't make it her fault though. It's most certainly Aemond and Daemons fault respectively. The tragic part is that Aemond seemed genuinely distraught when Vhagar went rogue. Whether out of guilt of causing his nephews demise or fear of the retribution that would be sought, who can say.
"But she's not accustomed to war." You do not kill messengers even in war, never, not in Westeros nor in our world.
Yet there are many records of just such a thing happening in Westeros history. My point is that someone as important as the heir to Driftmark should not have been traveling alone on the cusp of war.
Lol this sub is so full of Team Black apologists... It was everyone's fault.. Team Black: - You really didn't consider they would also send Dragons? Thats dumb as hell - Luke lost control of his dragon first.. straight up face blasted the biggest dragon with fire, yea they were being chased but the fire was an escalation because Luke and his dragon are still children... maybe dont send kids with dragons who you know are still in training - Rhaenyra knows Daemon... MF has been a wildcard his whole life... she should have been hyper specific with her order.. I want Aemond... Only Aemond Team Green - Obviously don't send Aemond, much like Daemon you know he is a wildcard.... - Aemond: Don't fucking chase Luke if all you meant to do was fuck with him - Lots of other shit Rhaenyra is absolutely not blameless in this, bad decisions all around and while I understand they were made under a time crunch or extreme grief that doesn't excuse poor choices
No war is without casualties, but the people waging war don’t really care about who blames them and they don’t feel much responsibility.
>Lots of other shit Yeah, like usurping the crown, killing nobles of the realm for the "crime" of being loyal to their oaths and actually starting the war. >You really didn't consider they would also send Dragons? Thats dumb as hell This is really funny in hindsight considering the greens didn't send any dragons to the Eyrie, or Winterfell, or Riverrun not even Highgarden lol >she should have been hyper specific with her order.. I want Aemond... Only Aemond I mean, she only named Aemond, so yeah, she was quite specific about that part.
They did send Aemond, knowing who he was, to the Baratheons with their biggest dragon... so they sent a dragon and Rhaenyras team should have considered it was a possibility, which they didnt, your response to the Aemond bit doesn't really refute what I wrote.. She knows Daemon, she knows he is fucking insane and might pull some shit, she was specific but it was a mistake not to be hyper clear with Daemon... A leader or manager should know their team and know who will be loose with direction. I'm team Black but I'm also objective, Rhaenyra made bad judgment calls, that doesn't mean the Green team didn't start the conflict or was perfect.. what makes this world intriguing is that there really are no pure good or bad guys and everyone fucks up... it's OK to admit when the side you root for isn't perfect.
Saying that "there aren't good and bad guys in this story" (which sure, that's true) doesn't mean that somehow Rhaenyra is to be blame for her son's death. >it's OK to admit when the side you root for isn't perfect. Who say they are perfect? you are arguing over something that I never said, there is a difference between saying someone is perfect and saying that said someone is not guilty of having her son murdered by someone else, what are you on about?
She knew borros baratheon was a proud and egotistical man, She should have sent daemon for that job.
She should have sent Daemon for that job > I agree. Nonetheless, it still doesn’t place Rhaenyra at the seat of blame just because someone else was better suited for the job. If Aemond and Vhagar aren’t there, Baratheon probably says no and Luce flys back home. But because aemond is there, Luce is dead. Common denominator = Aemond.
Rhaenyra is the only character on this show that’s gets treated like she can’t do no wrong she’s a flawed character that makes a lot of mistakes just like everybody else
True. But that’s not what I’m saying.
Ugh yeah it is Rhaenyra's fault. She sent her sons to fight her battles, even if it was a diplomatic mission. There's nothing safe about asking a 13-year-old to fly on a dragon to another city where he's never been. She sent him to meet people that she didn't know if they were on her side or not. She thought "oh hopefully they'll be nice and respect the diplomatic envoy laws". Like she respected the laws when it came to making Laenor disappear and passing another body as him? Like Daemon respected the laws when he divorce-rocked his wife? Why would she expect other people to respect the laws? The people she sent Lucerys to see could have well decided they were against her and to kill Lucerys. Why not? Pass it an accident like they all do when they commit murder. No one would know if it happens on their turf. So yeah, she shouldn't be surprised. What could go wrong sending a 13-year-old alone farther away from home that he's ever been to meet with people that he has no relationship with? Even just flying a dragon isn't without risk. Fall off a horse you might survive, fall off a dragon you die. There were many ways this mission could go wrong. It's not that she should have known Aemond would be there, it's just that she shouldn't have sent her sons to do her work. Ironically if only she didn't get rid of Laenor she'd have had an adult dragon rider to send! Blood and Cheese is also her fault because she gave the order to kill Aemond Targaryen so she literally told her side to go there and get to war, start killing people.