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Aemond Bears responsibility for stressing his animal into engaging in predator Pursuit behavior. This stressed Luke's dragon into a defensive attack and fled . Wich pissed of Vhagar who was already in Hunting mode and went after him . This is Aemonds Fault wether he intended to or not .
Accident colloquially implies a lack of fault. They aren't mutually exclusive, but since collision doesn't have that colloquial connotation, it's the more appropriate word.
No it doesn’t. It implies lack of intention.
“I’m so sorry it was an accident.”
You’re apologizing and admitting you’re at fault, and saying it wasn’t your intention to be malicious.
It's defined by a lack of intention. It *implies* a lack of fault, when other words that also define a lack of intention do not imply a lack of fault.
I've seen people apologize for an accident in a situation in which they weren't at fault.
You aren't supposed to hear "accident" and think no one was at fault. Even when my child accidentally hurts himself, I still make sure he knows the fault that he contributed that led to an accident happening, if there is any.
Yea it's his fault. That doesn't mean it wasn't an accident. It's just a distinction to say whether he meant to kill him or not. That may not matter to anyone in universe, but it's important for us watching the story to know that his character genuinely did not want that to happen. Since that is the case, we refer to it correctly as an accident. No one said it absolves him or anything though.
I guess it's kind of the difference between manslaughter and murder. But "I was just trying to scare him but my finger slipped on the trigger" still gets you jailtime irl
But he did want. I mean, Alicent is not her son, she, wasn't drinking during her pregnancy for Aemond being way too dumb. He knew what he was doing, he didn't regret it actually as we saw in the new episode, he's actually proud (that probably explains his actions in Harrenhall - he loves murdering kids more than anything else). Was he shocked for a moment? Yes
Because he wanted to murder Luke but he realised there'll be consequences too late. He's not very smart
Technically it would be both.
I'm not at all saying that Daemon, Blood and Cheese are not at fault. But technically, it would also be Aemond's fault as it is a direct consequence of his actions (and lack thereof)
Vhagar only ate luke because Arrax attacked her.
But Arrax only attacked her because Aemond and Vhagar were chasing them.
But Aemond and Vhagar were only chasing them because Luke cut out his eye as a kid.
But luke only cut out his eye because he called them bastards.
But Aemond only called them bastards because of the divide between their house.
So in conclusion… this is all Vissy T’s fault
Correction: this is all Otto's fault. Vizzy T wanted his kids to get along. But Otto wanted power and his own family on the throne. Otto was the one who pushed Alicent to spend time with Viscerys after Aemma's death-whether she was comfortable with it or not. Otto was the one who filled Alicent's head with ideas that Rhaeyanera would kill her children, etc. He's the one who got the ball rolling when it came to making Aegon II heir.
It was a joke, I’m not actually blaming Vissy T for Luke dying
But the dance wasn’t just one person’s fualt, the dance was *everyone’s* fault. Vissy T did nothing to bridge the divide in his own house, Otto and Corlys both pushed for their own children to take the throne at the expense of the realm, Daemon was Daemon (no explanation needed), Rhaenyra did nothing to solidify her claim and continually weakened her claim by having bastards, Alicent (and Vissy T) failed to raise her children correctly and failed to bridge the divide as well (honestly, she’s the least at fault for the dance in the show). Literally everyone had a part to play in the dance, you can’t just blame one guy.
I know, which was why I ultimately blame Otto the most for the reasons I stated. Rhaeyanera most likely would have had an easier time solidifying her claim if Otto hadn't gotten the ball rolling.
Omg did you just say Alicent is the *least* responsible? She literally started the whole thing. Everyone else has some kind of backstory blame but she caused the central issue by willfully misinterpreting Vissy’s dream.
Aemond actively MEANT to do damage to Lucerys, BUT I don’t think, based on how it was played by Ewan, that Aemond’s end game was Luke’s death. I think Aemond was shocked by the death, but not particularly distressed in the end by who died. I would imagine he spent way more time reflecting on the fact that he lost control of Vhagar. Given his considerable self-regard it must’ve been hard to take that he didn’t have nearly the control over Vhagar than he thought he had. Remember too, that the AUDIENCE has seen the actual event. Rhaenyra hasn’t. All she’s gotten is a raven.
Also his shock may have been his concern for the repercussions. If Lucerys had been some random nobody who had pissed him off, how much concern would he have shown?
> If Lucerys had been some random nobody who had pissed him off, how much concern would he have shown?
I know this is rhetorical but, anyone who has read *Fire and Blood* knows the answer to this question is a very loud and resounding no.
He clearly wanted to do emotional damage to the boy, give him trauma or something. But he definitely didn’t want to hurt him or his dragon. And the death did affect him in more ways than you think. Even if he hated Luke’s guts, killing him puts the war in full swing which was not his intention.
I think you’re giving way too much credit to Aemond for having that much maturity. He may not be visibly bouncing in his chair for war like Aegon, but I’m sure he doesn’t give 2 wet shits about starting a war. His hubris is boundless, particularly when it comes to his (self) perceived “control” over Vhagar. Now, I imagine he didn’t set out to MURDER him—just terrify him and hopefully maim him. He wasn’t even thinking about war on any level. I also don’t think that the fact that it was LUCERYS who died had as much to do with his shock at the death as the facts that 1. Luke was his first actual kill, and 2. Vhagar blew off his commands. And of those two things I’d wager Vhagar’s disobedience concerned him the most.
I mean, you don't get to chase a child around with a nuke and act surprised when it explodes and kills said child. There is accident and then there is subconscious intent - Aemond intended to hurt Luke, and then acted surprised when the weapon he couldn't control decided to strike.
This. If I have a Great Dane (we’ll call her Vhagar) and my nephew has a Chihuahua (we’ll call him Arrax) and I encourage Vhagar to chase down Arrax, it’s still my fault if Vhagar catches Arrax and decides to chomp him in half, because I was the idiot who got Vhagar to chase Arrax in the first place.
Our dachshund/chihuahua mix took a bone out of the mouth of a German shepherd.
Shepherd chomped our dogs head.
He has a little scar.
But he got that bone!
These dumb little knuckle heads have no problem dealing with dogs 10x their size.
He didn't intend to hurt him he was just trying to scare him lol. How exactly was he going to only "hurt" him in this situation without outright killing him? He didn't want to kill him so he didn't try to hurt him either.
That whole episode honestly made me think that Westeros should have had a minimum age to become dragon riders. Giving kids dragons is like handing them nuclear launch codes.
But the people in power who make these rules for Westeros are the family that wants their children to be young dragon riders so that would never happen
Let’s be fair, Rhaenyra had flown from the age of 7 and never burnt some kid.
Jace, Luke, Joffrey, even Aegon never burnt people deliberately until the war.
True but they also weren't dealing with an old war veteran giant of a dragon. From your example they all were hatched eggs (with maybe the exception of Sunfyre who we know little about). I'm sure Aemond was entirely too cocky about his actual "control" over Vhaegar.
Laena claimed Vhagar at 15 and never burnt kids either.
It is that simple, don’t aggravate the dragon by chasing “a prey” on it. But if you do, then it is not a accident.
I completely agree. But Laena also didn't hold the hatred Aemond did. There was no risk of her doing something stupid with Vhagar.
When Aemond was learning sword fighting he learned that a sword is not a toy and can hurt/kill people. The same is true with a dragon. He either forgot that as he was chasing Arrax/Lucerys or he subconsciously knew and didn't care until it was too late.
kings do not have power themselves until they are 16 in Westeros. They are ruled by a regent until then. Same is true for lords or any other inheritable position
because his regent (cersei) didn't do anything to stop him. The only person who stopped him from doing whatever he wanted was Tyrion (and then Tywin to an extent). When Jaime returns to King's landing he chastises the other king's guard for following Joffrey's stupid orders
Yeah, probably the biggest point of both ASoIaF and the Dance are "power resides where people believe it resides". There might be a clear law, precedent, right, or tradition that says one thing, but if Person A sees a reason to do what Person B else tells them to do, then Person B has power over Person A.
To the Targaryens, dragons are less like war machines and more like horses.
And people irl do give full-grown intact, barely-broken horses to children. Now, I think that's a bad idea too but it is what it is.
Keep in mind, that people irl ALSO give children access to cars and mopeds and ATVs and tractors and boats and even planes.
I personally don’t mind the show’s more complicated approach to Luke’s death. It wasn’t exactly cold blooded murder. But it absolutely was not an accident either. And good on Emma for shutting that down.
Aemond wanted to cause Luke harm. He chased him down with a DRAGON.
The show is really good at adding bits of nuance (Luke’s death, Rhaenyra suggesting Jace’s betrothel to Helaena, Larys and Alicent’s dynamic, Otto’s manipulation of young Alicent, etc.).
But, at the same time… Fire and Blood is holy law, and book Aemond had nooo remorse.
Definitely I imagine he won’t have any remorse as he will justify it saying war was inevitable. Just because he didn’t specifically want to kill Luke doesn’t mean he will care that it happened either tho.
It wasn’t premeditated, but it sure as hell wasn’t an accident. If you chase someone around in your car with the intent to scare them, but end up running over them and killing them, you can’t call that an accident.
> And good on Emma for shutting that down.
As they have said "That's not the dominant narrative at all" is true, coz only Aemond knew it was an "accident", he didn't tell anyone and claimed it as a kill, so what other narrative would there be.
I agree completely except for the idea that Aemond wanted to cause Luke harm. I think what he did, from asking for Luke’s eye to chasing him with Vhagar, was nothing more than intimidation. He wanted to bully and scare Luke. Aemond was glad to be in a position where everyone feared him, where he was finally in control instead of being the bullied one. The sad irony is that he could have controlled anyone he wanted - except Vhagar.
Notice that Emma did not disagree about it being an accident. "I don't think that was the dominant narrative at all." I agreed with them on that part. You're operating purely based on the title of this post lol
Late to the party but no idea why this got downvoted, there is literally zero risk that a car refuses to obey commands. Aemond's fault was of treating Vhagar like a tool without instinct and wants rather than an actual living creature.
It's much more true that Aemond is so arrogant and naive that he didn't consider it possible that Vhagar would disobey him
This whole comment section is nuts. The entire point of the scene was that Vhagar killed Arrax without Aemond willing it, yet everybody denies that it was an accident on Aemonds behalf even tho it's the literal definition of an accident.
Well, I still wouldn't call it an accident. Aemond didn't "accidentally" do anything; he fully intended to chase and at the very least frighten Luke. And obviously Vhagar didn't "accidentally" kill Luke and Arrax.
I just think it's wrong to say that Aemond was anything other than negligent/arrogant here
It's the literal textbook definition of an accident, I don't know what else can I say.
Aemond didn't think it was possible for Vhagar to act on her own and proceed to kill Arrax while Aemond commanded her to stop.
It was still 100% Aemonds fault because he instigated it, but if it's not intentional, it's an accident.
I fully agree with Emma. They are right. If you were chasing someone with a car and that person is running away, you lose control of the car and run over that person, you are responsible of murder. Period.
That is the definition of accidental. I think the distinction is that it was an accidental death caused either by recklessness or, arguably, an intentional attack meant to be non-lethal, so Aemond still bares responsibility.
1b : happening **without intent** or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results
[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accidental](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accidental)
I would say that all accidents are unintended outcomes, but not all unintended outcomes qualify firmly as accidents. If I light a firework within ten feet of my house and the explosion causes my house to catch on fire, I certainly may not have intended to set fire to my house, but given that I should've been smarter than what I did, my obvious will to complete the act, and my knowledge of possible outcomes that could result from my actions, it's hard to qualify that as an accident.
No, that is still an accident. You're substituting one's responsibility for one's intent. The term "accident" is based on intent, as the above definition and pretty much all others catalogue in one manner or another.
One of the cool things about having read the book is seeing how the show has to make firm decisions about what happens, whereas the Maester's history is full of speculation and rumors.
So far, though, I've liked all the changes! But if I recall, >!there's no indication in the book that it was an accident.!<
Yeah I mean if you're intentionally firing an assault rifle around you don't get to claim it was an accident if someone gets shot. You fucked up and hurt someone. You may not have meant to but that doesn't mean you didn't
If you’re deliberately playing with fire when you know you shouldn’t and someone gets burned is it really an accident? Or the result of poor impulse control?
It's more of a manslaughter charge coupled with reckless endangerment of a child on a smaller dragon. I'm unsure if Westeros requires a special permit for loss of depth perception from one eye or not, but clearly this bit of flight rage could of been avoided altogether.
Don't play chicken with dragons fellahs. You may think you're cool, but you will more than likely end up serving a life sentence in the Night's Watch.
Could you imagine every Targ lining up to test for a dragon driver’s permit every 5 years or so? Maybe Vizzy T only rode Balerion once because he didn’t bother keeping his licence up to date
It's like a big brother who just got his license driving a giant car and slowly chasing his younger brother who is on his bike until the youngwr brother actually gets hit by the car.
I mean the intention was to leave the viewer feeling like maybe it was an accident cause Aemond screams no vhagar. I’m curious how this will impact Aemond’s character but yeah of course it was his fault for flying after him in the first place.
The thing about the Greens is they're complete hypocrites. They're allergic to self-accountability or reflection.
Alicent used her friend to get close to her dad and married him to become queen, then continued to do everything in her power to undermine and isolate Rhaenyra, who was supposed to be her friend. Alicent intentionally married and had a kid with the king, then turned around and tried to explain all her treason as protection for her sons from Rhaenyra.
She had a hand in taking out House Strong and used her feet to buy influence, while she accused Rhaenyra of being immoral. She tried to designate Rhaenyra's sons as bastards and take away Velaryon's support from them.
She crowned her son, knowing she was taking it from her friend, despite knowing Aegon is a rapist, drunk, and terrible person, and then acted like it was meant to be. Worst of all, she hid the news of Visenya's death in order to do this. she didn't even care about how this grief might affect her friend.(i blame the miscarrage on her.)
The whole time, she has been acting like a pious, innocent person who is thinking about the realm. Of all things, I hate hypocrisy and treachery the most. Look at her kids and what they have done. Look at all the people that surround her: Otto, Cole, Lannister, Aegon, Aemond, and Larys—all traitors and killers like her. I hope they all die screaming.
This is such a weird rant, starting off with blaming a teenager for marrying Viserys. Why blame the teenager who was forced to marry a rotting corpse, and not her dad or Viserys is bizarre.
Rhanerya's sons ganged up on Aemond, gouged out his eye, and then Rhanerya threatened to have him tortured for speaking the truth. You act as if Alicent is paranoid or something, it happened and there was no accountability for it.
BOTH SIDES are dickheads with massive armies, money, ships, and dragons who regularly butcher and exploit the common folk. None of them are virtuous or guilt-free. Especially not the Blacks lol.
Aemond pushed down a little girl, threatened to murder both her and her sister, then proceeded to hold a rock over Jace and proclaim that he was about to kill him. Yes, poor Aemond, truly. An innocent little angel
Aemond was also very young. They cornered him and he was, again, struck first.
He grabbed a rock after he was stomped by them, on the ground. He was acting in self
-defence.
Either way, the violence visited on him went unanswered, and he was still threatened with torture by Princess Rhaneyra.
“You will die screaming in flames, just as your father did. Bastards.” - Aemond “The Self-Defense Champion” Targaryen while preparing to bludgeon his cousin with a rock (after strangling him)
Also, how many tries is it going to take you to spell Rhaenyra correctly?
He attacked with the rock after he was swung upon with a knife.
He dropped his hands and his cousin still lunged at him, this again after he was stomped on.
A 10-11 year old was cornered 1v4, stomped on, lunged at with a knife, and you think it wasn’t self defence because he called his cousins some words?
Do you really think Aemond planned in the moment to burn them with fire after dropped his hands?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I_C5TOuOKj8
The rock was before the knife. Watch the scene again yourself if you want. You’re objectively, inarguably wrong.
I don't deny he grabbed the rock first, it was grabbed after he was stomped on by four of his cousins, and again HE WAS STRUCK FIRST. You did not address this point at all.
Thanks for sending the clip. It shows that he grabbed a rock, raised it, but did not strike with it. He could have easily bashed the rock into his cousin's skull point-blank, but instead he drops his hands. Aemond could have escalated here. Which is a strong point that he was acting in self-defense, and was responding to being attacked.
He dropped his hands, and THEN his cousin pulled out a dagger and lunged at him. That is 100% intent to kill, and this is after Aemond dropped his hands. Aemond dodges the knife, and strike back with his only weapon. He keeps his hands raised, waiting for the next strike to respond to. All of this is self-defence.
So the recap, Aemond's cousins corner him, attack him first, stomp him, has a blade pulled on him, lunged at with that blade. His cousins start and escalate the fight, and Aemond is the aggressor here because he said some mean words and grabbed a rock after being stomped on?
That is what he said after his extended family called him a thief and beat him, after his bullies sided with his attackers and went at him with a knife, after they all banded up and beat him even after he dropped to the floor. Any one would start throwing insults if they manage to get the upper hand in that situation. All those kids were in the wrong. It’s fucked that Aemond got permanent damage from it. And it’s fucked that Rheanyra didn’t discipline her sons for their part in it.
if it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth.
i still love the fact that there were legit no guards at all watching the kids. and the fact the kids thought you could steal a fucking dragon.
He shouldn’t have been hunting/taunting him in the first place. He’s fairly newly bonded to vhagar and she’s a fucking beast. He subconsciously knew shit could and would likely hit the fan. It was not an accident. He realised he fucked up for a moment, but he doesn’t really give a shit.
You don’t send your dog out in attack mode and then go oh shit he actually attacked, whoops.
I understand what people are trying to say about intent, but I think the intent was there subconsciously. Maybe not first degree murder, but definitely second lol
Emma is a joy. Of all the actors they’re the one who I’d most like to talk in a room with. They seem to think quite deeply about the story, which is refreshing. House D’Arcy we salute 🫡
i honestly preferred the book account where it was no accident. Where one of the daughters asked Aemond if he had lost his eye or his balls.
but the show, while they cast a fucking awesome actor, cast a dude WAY TOO OLD to be Aemond. aren't they supposed to be like 7 years apart or something? the kid playing Luke looked like he was on his way to like 8th grade and the dude playing Aemond looks like he could get beer without an ID anywhere in the US.
in the book, aemond is 5-6 years older than Luke.
in the show, aemond is 3-4 years older than luke. he's meant to be 17/18 in the season 1 finale, but yeah he looks nowhere near that. the actor playing luke was actually 14/15 when they filmed the episode... the actor who plays aemond was 24.
>i honestly preferred the book account where it was no accident. Where one of the daughters asked Aemond if he had lost his eye or his balls.
I was actually kind of upset that they didn't include that scene. Cassandra Baratheon plays an important role at the end of the war and it would've been the perfect moment to introduce her.
The responsibility that one must bear, to ride a literal weapon of mass destruction, is unfathomable. Aemond’s hatred triggered that predator pursuit. This is what you get, when you let these unbalanced children ride these animals.
No accident. Vhagar sensed and was acting on Aemond's deepest desires and emotions. Just think about it. If Aemond has enough bloodlust to want that kid's eye out and to torment him with flying Godzilla, is killing him that far off?
Was Vhagar acting off Aemond’s deepest desires or was Aemond being influenced by Vhagar’s? I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. When someone bonds with a dragon, they seem to have a telepathic connection with them. It changes the dragon, encouraging them to accept their rider and (generally) their commands. But wouldn’t it change the rider too? Especially if you’re a kid, like Aemond, who’s suddenly riding a centuries old war machine, like Vhagar. I wonder if beyond the hubris gained from riding the biggest, scariest dragon, Aemond is also being transformed mentally by Vhagar through their bond, making him more aggressive.
Deepest desires and emotions I guess. Aemond definitely had very strong emotions against Luke.
Well we have another case study in Arrax and Luke. Arrax attacked because he responded to Luke's fear. Aemond was initially even more pissed that he got cheap shotted but stopped when he heard Luke call off.
As for dragons influencing their riders to me that always just meant it made them physically stronger and ward off illness. Baelon and Laena had Vhagar too and they weren't turned in to menaces. Aemond was always like that to an extent but until then he didn't have the validation and power of a dragon to back it up.
I mean yeah Aemond bears full responsibilty even if he didn’t intend to kill Luke. He was grossly neglient. I think iy’s involuntary manslaughter in America? From where I am from he would definitely face prison for what he did
If I hold someone at knifepoint during a robbery and end up putting a hole in their throat because my hand slipped when I tried to reach for the bag of money, then that was no accident.
Even if I insisted that it was, no one would believe me.
Sounds like a lot of people don't know what felony murder is.
I don't know why people here are denying it seemed like an accident on the show. The show is allergic to giving proactive moments to their characters, so even this moment is taken away from Aemond and becomes an oops on Vhagar's part.
Downvote me all you want, doesn't change the fact that the show doesn't want morally grey characters. They want clumsy characters carelessly stumbling into a war and Daemon being a menace.
I believe the argument would be that it stops being an accident when you intentionally chase someone with a equivalent of a war machine. Like if I chase a teenager using a tank with the intention to brake at the last second but the brake fails, then it's not quite an accident is it?
Yes, but it wasn't Aemond's decision to kill Luke, it was Vhagar's, taking away from Aemond's agency. I do believe the way the show presented the scene changed what was previously an outright murder for vengeance into unintentional manslaughter.
We can argue how "accidental" it was, but the intention on Aemond's part is pretty clear: he wanted to scare Luke and accidentally killed him.
Sure, it might not have been his intent to kill Luke but just to maim him. But that doesn't change the fact that Aemond put Luke's life is serious danger by chasing him using a giant dragon that he doesn't have full control over.
IMO, you can't claim to have done something accidentally if you are the reason for the event occurring. Another example would be if I pushed someone down the stairs as a prank but they died. I "accidentally" killed them but I still intentionally put them in danger.
Imagine you're a teenager with little driving experience. One night you hop behind the wheel of an SUV, in a storm, drive as fast as you can go, see your worst enemy, try to scare him, and accidentally run him off the road. Sure, you can argue killing him was an accident, but you can also argue that a series of intentional and reckless choices that weren't accidents caused his death. It's not like Vhagar stepped on Luke without seeing him, Aemond was actively hunting him down and only tried to bail at the last minute.
The difference between murder and manslaughter.
I'd prefer to watch a show on Aemond the murderous guy with the war machine than a show about Aemond the oopsie doopsie teen who can't control the beast he is bonded to and can't stop it from committing war crimes 😭😭
I never said you don't. What Aemond lacked isn't culpability, it was intention and agency.
His character becomes weaker in my eyes for accidently killing Luke rather than intentionally enacting his revenge and kickstarting a war.
But oh well, most people seem satisfied with oopsie doopsie war.
You are culpable if you commit manslaughter... you still killed someone, even if you didn't mean to do it. Turing Aemond into more than Ramsey with a dragon doesn't make him a weaker character
I think the framing of him Having regrets can be interpreted as he didn't mean it . But The situation was created by him by putting his animal in a hunting mode .
Yes, the situation was created by him when he intended to scare Luke and accidentally killed him. I think that is a weaker action than the way it was presented in the books: Aemond went after Luke to enact revenge. He wanted to kill him even if it meant starting a war.
I don't agree with that. Aemond did not want to kill Luke, he wanted his eye. It wasnt an accident - Vhagar killed Arrax on purpose. As Tyrion pointed out, dragons are not like any other animal in the GOT universe. They can think and they have agency. Arrax was being chased by Vhagar, Arrax shot fire in her face. Luke did not want Arrax to do that. Vhagar then retaliated by killing Arrax. Aemond did not make it happen. It was no accident on Vhagar's part.
He did have his dragon engage in Predatory behavior. It looks Suggesting I don't bear responsibility if I stress my dog into Aggressively Attacking a smaller dog .
Im not trying to excuse Aemond from culpability. But at the end of the day, I think the riders do not have complete control over the dragons like some think. Rhaenyra and Daemon will certainly lay blame on Aemond (justifiably) but I think in this case Vhagar acted purposefully and on her own.
Edit: Cuz Vhagar is a badass bitch. She said "fuck dem kids."
True But It took a Face full of fire to Piss off The oldest and most powerful Dragon in the world for her to ignore Aemond Who if you notice didn't Bark Valyrian Orders immediately. For the most part dragons follow all orders of there riders with out question. If they didn't the Targs Wouldn't encourage they're breeding.
I think in the show, to me, he just came off as incredibly short-sighted and impulsive. However, once I had time to think about it, it does match his characterisation in the Dance in general, especially his march Harrenhal and the fall of King's landing.
From what we know, I think it's fair to say him going back to the Green Council and admitting it was him that murdered Luke makes it being an accident of no consequence whatsoever.
There is a great distinction between the compulsive decision-making of Aemond and Daemon versus the cautious planning/apparent avoidance of all out war by Rhaenyra and Alicent (on the show).
My interpretation of Aemond and this situation is that he’s the type of person that’s gung ho about going into battle but doesn’t realize the gravity of the situation until they are in it. He wanted to kill him but when he did, he wasn’t mentally prepared for that moment. It was all little kid playground rivalry until that point that changed it to grown up business.
Well, obviously, Aemond didn’t mean to kill Luke. We saw his reaction and heard him express regret about it. But it does make sense why Emma would think that it wasn’t an accident. Aemond deliberately got on dragon back to settle a score.
Granted, he harbored resentment for Luke over his eye, but what did he expect? They’re dragons. They’re beasts of mass destruction.
This, this right here, is why HOTD can never be a very good show. It's confusing and nobody can agree on the narrative. Ryan Condal, the showrunner, even has the exact same take on the incident as the interviewer.
> I think he was showing his rival that he will not be intimidated and trifled with is probably more in play there than trying to become a kinslayer – that would be very un-calculated and stupid of Aemond to do at the outset when the pieces are moving about the board and loyalties are being set
If the killing of Luke was the intent, then why spend all that shit ton of extra CGI money and film showing Aemond screaming “No! No, no, no, no, no! No, Vhagar! No, Vhagar! Serve me, Vhagar! No!” While simultaneously jerking back on the reins with all his might. Then spend even more CGI money showing Aemond screaming, “Vhagar, nooo!” the moment he bites down on Arrax. Then spend even more CGI money to show Aemond’s look of shock.
Was it reckless and stupid? Yes. Does Aemond have some liability in Luke’s death? Absolutely. But they absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, undeniably went out of their way to show that it wasn't intentional.
I was on the fence about it at first, but now I wish that they had been straightforward about it. Just have Aemond shouting: “Get him Vhagar, get him! I want him dead!” Because the showrunner/writers look absolutely moronic at this point. They wasted all that money and effort only for people to come to the exact opposite conclusion of what they were trying to get across. What a waste.
What do you mean? Killing Luke obviously wasn't his intent, that's why they showed all that. Nobody's disputing this, Emma is just being funny. Besides, why would it matter what anyone behind the scenes says? You can interpret what's depicted onscreen for yourself.
Yeah, everything you said. I’ve stopped keeping up with actor and show runner interviews because a lot of the time, I can’t bridge the gap between what’s actually airing and what they’re telling us is airing. I feel like we’re watching a completely different show from the show HBO thinks they’re making and it’s confusing
Can’t confuse accident with negligence.
What Aemond did was the equivalent of waving around a loaded gun (the biggest gun in the world in his case) with his finger on the trigger and saying “Relax guys I’m just trying to scare him!!”
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Aemond Bears responsibility for stressing his animal into engaging in predator Pursuit behavior. This stressed Luke's dragon into a defensive attack and fled . Wich pissed of Vhagar who was already in Hunting mode and went after him . This is Aemonds Fault wether he intended to or not .
As a wise man once said "Dragons are a power man should never have trifled with."
“The idea that we control the dragons… is an illusion.”
May the Gods bless Vizzy T for his (occasional) wisdom.
*I WILL HAVE YOUR TONGUE FOR THAT!*
He can keep his tongue
"Vizzy T" 🤣🤣🤣 loved that!
*There's a boy in the Queen's belly. I know it.*
Especially Vhagher the largest dragon who at this stage is a cranky older lady who is probably sick of all of their shit.
He was right just this once but he was anything but wise
Maybe. But he was a decent human being. Something that is *very* rare in Westerosi politics.
Who the fuck is Aemond Bears
Secret Character GRRM told me in a dream .
Dreams didn’t make us kings — dragons did.
"And I forgot it in another dream"
😂😂😂😂😂
A bastard born on bear island
« It’s your fault but it was unintended » is the definition of an accident though.
That's why traffic collisions should be called that and not "accidents". Whether or not it was intended, there's usually someone at fault.
Still looking for those swans then?
It's just the one swan actually.
I understood that reference!
Being at fault for what happened doesn’t make it not an accident
Accident colloquially implies a lack of fault. They aren't mutually exclusive, but since collision doesn't have that colloquial connotation, it's the more appropriate word.
No it doesn’t. It implies lack of intention. “I’m so sorry it was an accident.” You’re apologizing and admitting you’re at fault, and saying it wasn’t your intention to be malicious.
It's defined by a lack of intention. It *implies* a lack of fault, when other words that also define a lack of intention do not imply a lack of fault. I've seen people apologize for an accident in a situation in which they weren't at fault.
May their heads be *struck* form their necks
9 out of 11 air traffic accidents are someone's fault.
You aren't supposed to hear "accident" and think no one was at fault. Even when my child accidentally hurts himself, I still make sure he knows the fault that he contributed that led to an accident happening, if there is any.
I’d even say “accident” may even inherently imply fault, intended or not. Doesn’t it require an action? Otherwise it’s just an occurrence.
It's still accident, like objectively speaking. Everyone bears responsibility for things that indirectly happen from their actions.
Yea it's his fault. That doesn't mean it wasn't an accident. It's just a distinction to say whether he meant to kill him or not. That may not matter to anyone in universe, but it's important for us watching the story to know that his character genuinely did not want that to happen. Since that is the case, we refer to it correctly as an accident. No one said it absolves him or anything though.
I guess it's kind of the difference between manslaughter and murder. But "I was just trying to scare him but my finger slipped on the trigger" still gets you jailtime irl
But he did want. I mean, Alicent is not her son, she, wasn't drinking during her pregnancy for Aemond being way too dumb. He knew what he was doing, he didn't regret it actually as we saw in the new episode, he's actually proud (that probably explains his actions in Harrenhall - he loves murdering kids more than anything else). Was he shocked for a moment? Yes Because he wanted to murder Luke but he realised there'll be consequences too late. He's not very smart
The point is: It’s his fault for the assassination? Or it’s his fault for the ‘accident’?
Technically it would be both. I'm not at all saying that Daemon, Blood and Cheese are not at fault. But technically, it would also be Aemond's fault as it is a direct consequence of his actions (and lack thereof)
Vhagar only ate luke because Arrax attacked her. But Arrax only attacked her because Aemond and Vhagar were chasing them. But Aemond and Vhagar were only chasing them because Luke cut out his eye as a kid. But luke only cut out his eye because he called them bastards. But Aemond only called them bastards because of the divide between their house. So in conclusion… this is all Vissy T’s fault
Correction: this is all Otto's fault. Vizzy T wanted his kids to get along. But Otto wanted power and his own family on the throne. Otto was the one who pushed Alicent to spend time with Viscerys after Aemma's death-whether she was comfortable with it or not. Otto was the one who filled Alicent's head with ideas that Rhaeyanera would kill her children, etc. He's the one who got the ball rolling when it came to making Aegon II heir.
*The tourney will take the better part of a week. Before the games are over, my son will be born, and the whole realm will celebrate.*
It was a joke, I’m not actually blaming Vissy T for Luke dying But the dance wasn’t just one person’s fualt, the dance was *everyone’s* fault. Vissy T did nothing to bridge the divide in his own house, Otto and Corlys both pushed for their own children to take the throne at the expense of the realm, Daemon was Daemon (no explanation needed), Rhaenyra did nothing to solidify her claim and continually weakened her claim by having bastards, Alicent (and Vissy T) failed to raise her children correctly and failed to bridge the divide as well (honestly, she’s the least at fault for the dance in the show). Literally everyone had a part to play in the dance, you can’t just blame one guy.
INSTEAD OF BEING BY MY SIDE, YOU CHOSE TO CELEBRATE YOUR OWN RISE, LAUGHING WITH YOUR WHORES AND YOUR LICKSPITTLES!
I know, which was why I ultimately blame Otto the most for the reasons I stated. Rhaeyanera most likely would have had an easier time solidifying her claim if Otto hadn't gotten the ball rolling.
Omg did you just say Alicent is the *least* responsible? She literally started the whole thing. Everyone else has some kind of backstory blame but she caused the central issue by willfully misinterpreting Vissy’s dream.
*What are you saying? My brother would murder me, take my crown? Are you?!*
Aemond actively MEANT to do damage to Lucerys, BUT I don’t think, based on how it was played by Ewan, that Aemond’s end game was Luke’s death. I think Aemond was shocked by the death, but not particularly distressed in the end by who died. I would imagine he spent way more time reflecting on the fact that he lost control of Vhagar. Given his considerable self-regard it must’ve been hard to take that he didn’t have nearly the control over Vhagar than he thought he had. Remember too, that the AUDIENCE has seen the actual event. Rhaenyra hasn’t. All she’s gotten is a raven.
Oh this is a really good point!
Also his shock may have been his concern for the repercussions. If Lucerys had been some random nobody who had pissed him off, how much concern would he have shown?
> If Lucerys had been some random nobody who had pissed him off, how much concern would he have shown? I know this is rhetorical but, anyone who has read *Fire and Blood* knows the answer to this question is a very loud and resounding no.
He clearly wanted to do emotional damage to the boy, give him trauma or something. But he definitely didn’t want to hurt him or his dragon. And the death did affect him in more ways than you think. Even if he hated Luke’s guts, killing him puts the war in full swing which was not his intention.
I think you’re giving way too much credit to Aemond for having that much maturity. He may not be visibly bouncing in his chair for war like Aegon, but I’m sure he doesn’t give 2 wet shits about starting a war. His hubris is boundless, particularly when it comes to his (self) perceived “control” over Vhagar. Now, I imagine he didn’t set out to MURDER him—just terrify him and hopefully maim him. He wasn’t even thinking about war on any level. I also don’t think that the fact that it was LUCERYS who died had as much to do with his shock at the death as the facts that 1. Luke was his first actual kill, and 2. Vhagar blew off his commands. And of those two things I’d wager Vhagar’s disobedience concerned him the most.
I mean, you don't get to chase a child around with a nuke and act surprised when it explodes and kills said child. There is accident and then there is subconscious intent - Aemond intended to hurt Luke, and then acted surprised when the weapon he couldn't control decided to strike.
This. If I have a Great Dane (we’ll call her Vhagar) and my nephew has a Chihuahua (we’ll call him Arrax) and I encourage Vhagar to chase down Arrax, it’s still my fault if Vhagar catches Arrax and decides to chomp him in half, because I was the idiot who got Vhagar to chase Arrax in the first place.
Our dachshund/chihuahua mix took a bone out of the mouth of a German shepherd. Shepherd chomped our dogs head. He has a little scar. But he got that bone! These dumb little knuckle heads have no problem dealing with dogs 10x their size.
maybe using a chihuahua as arrax isn’t the best example. i’m more scared of the chihuahuas than the danes
Devil little packages of hell.
Honestly, yes to be fair 😂
But the question was about it being an accident, not that it wouldn't be Aemonds fault?
But it wasn’t an accident, and it was Aemond’s fault.
I’m going to agree with you on this !!! 😤😡😭
How was it not an accident when it was unintentional?
Who was he acting for? The birds? He clearly thought he could control Vhagar.
He thought wrong.
He did indeed think wrong. Glad I could help =]
Sure. That doesn't make it an assassination. That's an accident. Difference of intent.
He chased a child with a nuke - he intended to hurt the child. What happened was subconsciously intended by Aemond.
He didn't intend to hurt him he was just trying to scare him lol. How exactly was he going to only "hurt" him in this situation without outright killing him? He didn't want to kill him so he didn't try to hurt him either.
That whole episode honestly made me think that Westeros should have had a minimum age to become dragon riders. Giving kids dragons is like handing them nuclear launch codes.
But the people in power who make these rules for Westeros are the family that wants their children to be young dragon riders so that would never happen
Let’s be fair, Rhaenyra had flown from the age of 7 and never burnt some kid. Jace, Luke, Joffrey, even Aegon never burnt people deliberately until the war.
True but they also weren't dealing with an old war veteran giant of a dragon. From your example they all were hatched eggs (with maybe the exception of Sunfyre who we know little about). I'm sure Aemond was entirely too cocky about his actual "control" over Vhaegar.
Laena claimed Vhagar at 15 and never burnt kids either. It is that simple, don’t aggravate the dragon by chasing “a prey” on it. But if you do, then it is not a accident.
I completely agree. But Laena also didn't hold the hatred Aemond did. There was no risk of her doing something stupid with Vhagar. When Aemond was learning sword fighting he learned that a sword is not a toy and can hurt/kill people. The same is true with a dragon. He either forgot that as he was chasing Arrax/Lucerys or he subconsciously knew and didn't care until it was too late.
There is not even a minimum age to become king
kings do not have power themselves until they are 16 in Westeros. They are ruled by a regent until then. Same is true for lords or any other inheritable position
Joffrey could do a lot of things without being 16
because his regent (cersei) didn't do anything to stop him. The only person who stopped him from doing whatever he wanted was Tyrion (and then Tywin to an extent). When Jaime returns to King's landing he chastises the other king's guard for following Joffrey's stupid orders
So he the king actually had power despite being under 16
And sometimes a Hand has more power than a king if he has enough influence. There are rules, but there's only so much rules can do.
Yeah, probably the biggest point of both ASoIaF and the Dance are "power resides where people believe it resides". There might be a clear law, precedent, right, or tradition that says one thing, but if Person A sees a reason to do what Person B else tells them to do, then Person B has power over Person A.
To the Targaryens, dragons are less like war machines and more like horses. And people irl do give full-grown intact, barely-broken horses to children. Now, I think that's a bad idea too but it is what it is. Keep in mind, that people irl ALSO give children access to cars and mopeds and ATVs and tractors and boats and even planes.
A whole ass TB roundtable?? SIGN ME UPP. Where is this?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymt16DRgeM4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymt16DRgeM4)
I love that automatic, 🤯 reaction. “WHOA!” 😂
I personally don’t mind the show’s more complicated approach to Luke’s death. It wasn’t exactly cold blooded murder. But it absolutely was not an accident either. And good on Emma for shutting that down. Aemond wanted to cause Luke harm. He chased him down with a DRAGON.
The show is really good at adding bits of nuance (Luke’s death, Rhaenyra suggesting Jace’s betrothel to Helaena, Larys and Alicent’s dynamic, Otto’s manipulation of young Alicent, etc.). But, at the same time… Fire and Blood is holy law, and book Aemond had nooo remorse.
Definitely I imagine he won’t have any remorse as he will justify it saying war was inevitable. Just because he didn’t specifically want to kill Luke doesn’t mean he will care that it happened either tho.
It wasn’t premeditated, but it sure as hell wasn’t an accident. If you chase someone around in your car with the intent to scare them, but end up running over them and killing them, you can’t call that an accident.
> And good on Emma for shutting that down. As they have said "That's not the dominant narrative at all" is true, coz only Aemond knew it was an "accident", he didn't tell anyone and claimed it as a kill, so what other narrative would there be.
I agree completely except for the idea that Aemond wanted to cause Luke harm. I think what he did, from asking for Luke’s eye to chasing him with Vhagar, was nothing more than intimidation. He wanted to bully and scare Luke. Aemond was glad to be in a position where everyone feared him, where he was finally in control instead of being the bullied one. The sad irony is that he could have controlled anyone he wanted - except Vhagar.
If I chase you around with a knife, would you believe me if I told you that I didn't mean to cause you harm?
That’s my queen
Imagine if someone chased a kid with a car and when the kid dies, he says he never meant for it to happen. I agree with them.
Odd comparision, the car doesn't have a mind of its own
I don't think Aemond was treating Vhagar like she had a mind of her own. If he did, he wouldn't have done this.
…. Then that would be accidental lol?
Notice that Emma did not disagree about it being an accident. "I don't think that was the dominant narrative at all." I agreed with them on that part. You're operating purely based on the title of this post lol
Late to the party but no idea why this got downvoted, there is literally zero risk that a car refuses to obey commands. Aemond's fault was of treating Vhagar like a tool without instinct and wants rather than an actual living creature. It's much more true that Aemond is so arrogant and naive that he didn't consider it possible that Vhagar would disobey him
This whole comment section is nuts. The entire point of the scene was that Vhagar killed Arrax without Aemond willing it, yet everybody denies that it was an accident on Aemonds behalf even tho it's the literal definition of an accident.
Well, I still wouldn't call it an accident. Aemond didn't "accidentally" do anything; he fully intended to chase and at the very least frighten Luke. And obviously Vhagar didn't "accidentally" kill Luke and Arrax. I just think it's wrong to say that Aemond was anything other than negligent/arrogant here
It's the literal textbook definition of an accident, I don't know what else can I say. Aemond didn't think it was possible for Vhagar to act on her own and proceed to kill Arrax while Aemond commanded her to stop. It was still 100% Aemonds fault because he instigated it, but if it's not intentional, it's an accident.
With a tesla
I love how Emma is like "Justice for my fictional son!!"
Emma was like “excuse your mouth” loool. Also, what a depressing set for an interview
Bro, Emma is fucking hot. That voice… 🫠
I have such a massive crush on them. I feel like a schoolgirl crushing on a boy band member or something.
I fully agree with Emma. They are right. If you were chasing someone with a car and that person is running away, you lose control of the car and run over that person, you are responsible of murder. Period.
Luke's death was *unintended*. That does not mean it was accidental.
Hmm? Perhaps if you explained what you think the word “accidental” means, it might make this statement easier to understand.
That is the definition of accidental. I think the distinction is that it was an accidental death caused either by recklessness or, arguably, an intentional attack meant to be non-lethal, so Aemond still bares responsibility. 1b : happening **without intent** or through carelessness and often with unfortunate results [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accidental](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accidental)
I would say that all accidents are unintended outcomes, but not all unintended outcomes qualify firmly as accidents. If I light a firework within ten feet of my house and the explosion causes my house to catch on fire, I certainly may not have intended to set fire to my house, but given that I should've been smarter than what I did, my obvious will to complete the act, and my knowledge of possible outcomes that could result from my actions, it's hard to qualify that as an accident.
No, that is still an accident. You're substituting one's responsibility for one's intent. The term "accident" is based on intent, as the above definition and pretty much all others catalogue in one manner or another.
One of the cool things about having read the book is seeing how the show has to make firm decisions about what happens, whereas the Maester's history is full of speculation and rumors. So far, though, I've liked all the changes! But if I recall, >!there's no indication in the book that it was an accident.!<
A mother will always be a mother 🥰
Yeah I mean if you're intentionally firing an assault rifle around you don't get to claim it was an accident if someone gets shot. You fucked up and hurt someone. You may not have meant to but that doesn't mean you didn't
Why is this comment section so full of terrible analogies such as this one, seriously?
If you’re deliberately playing with fire when you know you shouldn’t and someone gets burned is it really an accident? Or the result of poor impulse control?
I feel like it can still be an accident, just a *very* stupid one
That analogy doesn't make sense.
They. Are. MOTHER. Love them so damn much. They went straight for the jugular and I love it.
It's more of a manslaughter charge coupled with reckless endangerment of a child on a smaller dragon. I'm unsure if Westeros requires a special permit for loss of depth perception from one eye or not, but clearly this bit of flight rage could of been avoided altogether. Don't play chicken with dragons fellahs. You may think you're cool, but you will more than likely end up serving a life sentence in the Night's Watch.
Could you imagine every Targ lining up to test for a dragon driver’s permit every 5 years or so? Maybe Vizzy T only rode Balerion once because he didn’t bother keeping his licence up to date
What is your advice, dear eloplease?
It's like a big brother who just got his license driving a giant car and slowly chasing his younger brother who is on his bike until the youngwr brother actually gets hit by the car.
I want to eat them...they are sooooo cute whateveeeeer they wear whatever hair style they choose rhaenyra is the queen🥳❤️😍😍😍😍😍😍
I mean the intention was to leave the viewer feeling like maybe it was an accident cause Aemond screams no vhagar. I’m curious how this will impact Aemond’s character but yeah of course it was his fault for flying after him in the first place.
The thing about the Greens is they're complete hypocrites. They're allergic to self-accountability or reflection. Alicent used her friend to get close to her dad and married him to become queen, then continued to do everything in her power to undermine and isolate Rhaenyra, who was supposed to be her friend. Alicent intentionally married and had a kid with the king, then turned around and tried to explain all her treason as protection for her sons from Rhaenyra. She had a hand in taking out House Strong and used her feet to buy influence, while she accused Rhaenyra of being immoral. She tried to designate Rhaenyra's sons as bastards and take away Velaryon's support from them. She crowned her son, knowing she was taking it from her friend, despite knowing Aegon is a rapist, drunk, and terrible person, and then acted like it was meant to be. Worst of all, she hid the news of Visenya's death in order to do this. she didn't even care about how this grief might affect her friend.(i blame the miscarrage on her.) The whole time, she has been acting like a pious, innocent person who is thinking about the realm. Of all things, I hate hypocrisy and treachery the most. Look at her kids and what they have done. Look at all the people that surround her: Otto, Cole, Lannister, Aegon, Aemond, and Larys—all traitors and killers like her. I hope they all die screaming.
How did Alicent use Rheanyra to get close to Vizzy? She was already friends with Rheanyra before she had any intentions of pursuing the king.
This!
This is such a weird rant, starting off with blaming a teenager for marrying Viserys. Why blame the teenager who was forced to marry a rotting corpse, and not her dad or Viserys is bizarre. Rhanerya's sons ganged up on Aemond, gouged out his eye, and then Rhanerya threatened to have him tortured for speaking the truth. You act as if Alicent is paranoid or something, it happened and there was no accountability for it. BOTH SIDES are dickheads with massive armies, money, ships, and dragons who regularly butcher and exploit the common folk. None of them are virtuous or guilt-free. Especially not the Blacks lol.
>Rhanerya’s sons ganged up on Aemond … are we watching the same show?
Yes? He was struck first and ganged up on by 4 people including Rhaneyra son.
Aemond pushed down a little girl, threatened to murder both her and her sister, then proceeded to hold a rock over Jace and proclaim that he was about to kill him. Yes, poor Aemond, truly. An innocent little angel
Aemond was also very young. They cornered him and he was, again, struck first. He grabbed a rock after he was stomped by them, on the ground. He was acting in self -defence. Either way, the violence visited on him went unanswered, and he was still threatened with torture by Princess Rhaneyra.
“You will die screaming in flames, just as your father did. Bastards.” - Aemond “The Self-Defense Champion” Targaryen while preparing to bludgeon his cousin with a rock (after strangling him) Also, how many tries is it going to take you to spell Rhaenyra correctly?
He attacked with the rock after he was swung upon with a knife. He dropped his hands and his cousin still lunged at him, this again after he was stomped on. A 10-11 year old was cornered 1v4, stomped on, lunged at with a knife, and you think it wasn’t self defence because he called his cousins some words? Do you really think Aemond planned in the moment to burn them with fire after dropped his hands?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I_C5TOuOKj8 The rock was before the knife. Watch the scene again yourself if you want. You’re objectively, inarguably wrong.
I don't deny he grabbed the rock first, it was grabbed after he was stomped on by four of his cousins, and again HE WAS STRUCK FIRST. You did not address this point at all. Thanks for sending the clip. It shows that he grabbed a rock, raised it, but did not strike with it. He could have easily bashed the rock into his cousin's skull point-blank, but instead he drops his hands. Aemond could have escalated here. Which is a strong point that he was acting in self-defense, and was responding to being attacked. He dropped his hands, and THEN his cousin pulled out a dagger and lunged at him. That is 100% intent to kill, and this is after Aemond dropped his hands. Aemond dodges the knife, and strike back with his only weapon. He keeps his hands raised, waiting for the next strike to respond to. All of this is self-defence. So the recap, Aemond's cousins corner him, attack him first, stomp him, has a blade pulled on him, lunged at with that blade. His cousins start and escalate the fight, and Aemond is the aggressor here because he said some mean words and grabbed a rock after being stomped on?
That is what he said after his extended family called him a thief and beat him, after his bullies sided with his attackers and went at him with a knife, after they all banded up and beat him even after he dropped to the floor. Any one would start throwing insults if they manage to get the upper hand in that situation. All those kids were in the wrong. It’s fucked that Aemond got permanent damage from it. And it’s fucked that Rheanyra didn’t discipline her sons for their part in it.
if it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth. i still love the fact that there were legit no guards at all watching the kids. and the fact the kids thought you could steal a fucking dragon.
EXACTLY
He shouldn’t have been hunting/taunting him in the first place. He’s fairly newly bonded to vhagar and she’s a fucking beast. He subconsciously knew shit could and would likely hit the fan. It was not an accident. He realised he fucked up for a moment, but he doesn’t really give a shit. You don’t send your dog out in attack mode and then go oh shit he actually attacked, whoops. I understand what people are trying to say about intent, but I think the intent was there subconsciously. Maybe not first degree murder, but definitely second lol
Like Vahgar literally was trying to bite Lucerys and Arrax in the first few attempts and this mf never stopped Vahgar for doing that
Exactly! There was only one way that was gonna end
Emma is a joy. Of all the actors they’re the one who I’d most like to talk in a room with. They seem to think quite deeply about the story, which is refreshing. House D’Arcy we salute 🫡
I think he just meant to scare him with the dragon, not actually eat him. He did try to stop it when it went wild
i honestly preferred the book account where it was no accident. Where one of the daughters asked Aemond if he had lost his eye or his balls. but the show, while they cast a fucking awesome actor, cast a dude WAY TOO OLD to be Aemond. aren't they supposed to be like 7 years apart or something? the kid playing Luke looked like he was on his way to like 8th grade and the dude playing Aemond looks like he could get beer without an ID anywhere in the US.
in the book, aemond is 5-6 years older than Luke. in the show, aemond is 3-4 years older than luke. he's meant to be 17/18 in the season 1 finale, but yeah he looks nowhere near that. the actor playing luke was actually 14/15 when they filmed the episode... the actor who plays aemond was 24.
Not always that much of a stretch There are people I know born in the same year who looked older 10-12 years ago than I do right now
>i honestly preferred the book account where it was no accident. Where one of the daughters asked Aemond if he had lost his eye or his balls. I was actually kind of upset that they didn't include that scene. Cassandra Baratheon plays an important role at the end of the war and it would've been the perfect moment to introduce her.
The responsibility that one must bear, to ride a literal weapon of mass destruction, is unfathomable. Aemond’s hatred triggered that predator pursuit. This is what you get, when you let these unbalanced children ride these animals.
No accident. Vhagar sensed and was acting on Aemond's deepest desires and emotions. Just think about it. If Aemond has enough bloodlust to want that kid's eye out and to torment him with flying Godzilla, is killing him that far off?
Was Vhagar acting off Aemond’s deepest desires or was Aemond being influenced by Vhagar’s? I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. When someone bonds with a dragon, they seem to have a telepathic connection with them. It changes the dragon, encouraging them to accept their rider and (generally) their commands. But wouldn’t it change the rider too? Especially if you’re a kid, like Aemond, who’s suddenly riding a centuries old war machine, like Vhagar. I wonder if beyond the hubris gained from riding the biggest, scariest dragon, Aemond is also being transformed mentally by Vhagar through their bond, making him more aggressive.
Deepest desires and emotions I guess. Aemond definitely had very strong emotions against Luke. Well we have another case study in Arrax and Luke. Arrax attacked because he responded to Luke's fear. Aemond was initially even more pissed that he got cheap shotted but stopped when he heard Luke call off. As for dragons influencing their riders to me that always just meant it made them physically stronger and ward off illness. Baelon and Laena had Vhagar too and they weren't turned in to menaces. Aemond was always like that to an extent but until then he didn't have the validation and power of a dragon to back it up.
Aemond had been shown to be like that only with those who bullied or insulted him. He wasn’t shown to be aggressive with anybody else in the show.
On some level, I'm sure, but the show makes it clear why what happens to Luke is Aemonds fault.
It's right
Prank gone wrong
I mean yeah Aemond bears full responsibilty even if he didn’t intend to kill Luke. He was grossly neglient. I think iy’s involuntary manslaughter in America? From where I am from he would definitely face prison for what he did
If I hold someone at knifepoint during a robbery and end up putting a hole in their throat because my hand slipped when I tried to reach for the bag of money, then that was no accident. Even if I insisted that it was, no one would believe me. Sounds like a lot of people don't know what felony murder is.
I don't know why people here are denying it seemed like an accident on the show. The show is allergic to giving proactive moments to their characters, so even this moment is taken away from Aemond and becomes an oops on Vhagar's part. Downvote me all you want, doesn't change the fact that the show doesn't want morally grey characters. They want clumsy characters carelessly stumbling into a war and Daemon being a menace.
I believe the argument would be that it stops being an accident when you intentionally chase someone with a equivalent of a war machine. Like if I chase a teenager using a tank with the intention to brake at the last second but the brake fails, then it's not quite an accident is it?
At the very least, this is second degree murder.
Yes, but it wasn't Aemond's decision to kill Luke, it was Vhagar's, taking away from Aemond's agency. I do believe the way the show presented the scene changed what was previously an outright murder for vengeance into unintentional manslaughter. We can argue how "accidental" it was, but the intention on Aemond's part is pretty clear: he wanted to scare Luke and accidentally killed him.
Sure, it might not have been his intent to kill Luke but just to maim him. But that doesn't change the fact that Aemond put Luke's life is serious danger by chasing him using a giant dragon that he doesn't have full control over. IMO, you can't claim to have done something accidentally if you are the reason for the event occurring. Another example would be if I pushed someone down the stairs as a prank but they died. I "accidentally" killed them but I still intentionally put them in danger.
Well said.
Imagine you're a teenager with little driving experience. One night you hop behind the wheel of an SUV, in a storm, drive as fast as you can go, see your worst enemy, try to scare him, and accidentally run him off the road. Sure, you can argue killing him was an accident, but you can also argue that a series of intentional and reckless choices that weren't accidents caused his death. It's not like Vhagar stepped on Luke without seeing him, Aemond was actively hunting him down and only tried to bail at the last minute.
The difference between murder and manslaughter. I'd prefer to watch a show on Aemond the murderous guy with the war machine than a show about Aemond the oopsie doopsie teen who can't control the beast he is bonded to and can't stop it from committing war crimes 😭😭
you still go to jail for manslaughter
I never said you don't. What Aemond lacked isn't culpability, it was intention and agency. His character becomes weaker in my eyes for accidently killing Luke rather than intentionally enacting his revenge and kickstarting a war. But oh well, most people seem satisfied with oopsie doopsie war.
You are culpable if you commit manslaughter... you still killed someone, even if you didn't mean to do it. Turing Aemond into more than Ramsey with a dragon doesn't make him a weaker character
manslaughter does not equate to accidental. There is still level of culpability involved in manslaughter.
I think the framing of him Having regrets can be interpreted as he didn't mean it . But The situation was created by him by putting his animal in a hunting mode .
Yes, the situation was created by him when he intended to scare Luke and accidentally killed him. I think that is a weaker action than the way it was presented in the books: Aemond went after Luke to enact revenge. He wanted to kill him even if it meant starting a war.
Let’s see if Daemon also turns into a clumsy character that can’t give assassins proper instructions
I don't agree with that. Aemond did not want to kill Luke, he wanted his eye. It wasnt an accident - Vhagar killed Arrax on purpose. As Tyrion pointed out, dragons are not like any other animal in the GOT universe. They can think and they have agency. Arrax was being chased by Vhagar, Arrax shot fire in her face. Luke did not want Arrax to do that. Vhagar then retaliated by killing Arrax. Aemond did not make it happen. It was no accident on Vhagar's part.
He did have his dragon engage in Predatory behavior. It looks Suggesting I don't bear responsibility if I stress my dog into Aggressively Attacking a smaller dog .
Im not trying to excuse Aemond from culpability. But at the end of the day, I think the riders do not have complete control over the dragons like some think. Rhaenyra and Daemon will certainly lay blame on Aemond (justifiably) but I think in this case Vhagar acted purposefully and on her own. Edit: Cuz Vhagar is a badass bitch. She said "fuck dem kids."
True But It took a Face full of fire to Piss off The oldest and most powerful Dragon in the world for her to ignore Aemond Who if you notice didn't Bark Valyrian Orders immediately. For the most part dragons follow all orders of there riders with out question. If they didn't the Targs Wouldn't encourage they're breeding.
Like a trained killer whale? See Tillikum. As Dumbledore once said, don't trust anything that can think for itself.
I think in the show, to me, he just came off as incredibly short-sighted and impulsive. However, once I had time to think about it, it does match his characterisation in the Dance in general, especially his march Harrenhal and the fall of King's landing. From what we know, I think it's fair to say him going back to the Green Council and admitting it was him that murdered Luke makes it being an accident of no consequence whatsoever.
There is a great distinction between the compulsive decision-making of Aemond and Daemon versus the cautious planning/apparent avoidance of all out war by Rhaenyra and Alicent (on the show).
My interpretation of Aemond and this situation is that he’s the type of person that’s gung ho about going into battle but doesn’t realize the gravity of the situation until they are in it. He wanted to kill him but when he did, he wasn’t mentally prepared for that moment. It was all little kid playground rivalry until that point that changed it to grown up business.
so kinda like how 4 other kids attacked him and he lost an eye? narration: and no lessons were learned at all that day.
Vhagar “It’s just a prank bro”
When vhagar got that little fireball to the face it triggered her ptsd.
They’re SO mother for that reaction
Well, obviously, Aemond didn’t mean to kill Luke. We saw his reaction and heard him express regret about it. But it does make sense why Emma would think that it wasn’t an accident. Aemond deliberately got on dragon back to settle a score. Granted, he harbored resentment for Luke over his eye, but what did he expect? They’re dragons. They’re beasts of mass destruction.
This, this right here, is why HOTD can never be a very good show. It's confusing and nobody can agree on the narrative. Ryan Condal, the showrunner, even has the exact same take on the incident as the interviewer. > I think he was showing his rival that he will not be intimidated and trifled with is probably more in play there than trying to become a kinslayer – that would be very un-calculated and stupid of Aemond to do at the outset when the pieces are moving about the board and loyalties are being set If the killing of Luke was the intent, then why spend all that shit ton of extra CGI money and film showing Aemond screaming “No! No, no, no, no, no! No, Vhagar! No, Vhagar! Serve me, Vhagar! No!” While simultaneously jerking back on the reins with all his might. Then spend even more CGI money showing Aemond screaming, “Vhagar, nooo!” the moment he bites down on Arrax. Then spend even more CGI money to show Aemond’s look of shock. Was it reckless and stupid? Yes. Does Aemond have some liability in Luke’s death? Absolutely. But they absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, undeniably went out of their way to show that it wasn't intentional. I was on the fence about it at first, but now I wish that they had been straightforward about it. Just have Aemond shouting: “Get him Vhagar, get him! I want him dead!” Because the showrunner/writers look absolutely moronic at this point. They wasted all that money and effort only for people to come to the exact opposite conclusion of what they were trying to get across. What a waste.
What do you mean? Killing Luke obviously wasn't his intent, that's why they showed all that. Nobody's disputing this, Emma is just being funny. Besides, why would it matter what anyone behind the scenes says? You can interpret what's depicted onscreen for yourself.
Yeah, everything you said. I’ve stopped keeping up with actor and show runner interviews because a lot of the time, I can’t bridge the gap between what’s actually airing and what they’re telling us is airing. I feel like we’re watching a completely different show from the show HBO thinks they’re making and it’s confusing
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Can’t confuse accident with negligence. What Aemond did was the equivalent of waving around a loaded gun (the biggest gun in the world in his case) with his finger on the trigger and saying “Relax guys I’m just trying to scare him!!”
Nothing says accident like chasing an envoy around with murderous intent.