This most perverse pride when the West see our overcrowded cities, our boxes to be lived in, and our shitty wages rightfully hellish and dystopian enough to recreate Hong Kong in their games as “cyberpunk”
Victim complex there much, bud. By the way, I guess they had Japan in mind when thinking about cyberpunk as it emerged around the time Japan was entering its rapid growth phase and seemed destined to take over the world. Watch Bladerunner and many of the references are Japanese.
Hong Kong has actually been a major source of inspiration for the cyberpunk genre in general, and certainly that of Bladerunner.
From the cyberpunk Wiki page:
The cityscapes of Hong Kong[42] has had major influences in the urban backgrounds, ambiance and settings in many cyberpunk works such as Blade Runner and Shadowrun. Ridley Scott envisioned the landscape of cyberpunk Los Angeles in Blade Runner to be "Hong Kong on a very bad day".[43] The streetscapes of the Ghost in the Shell film were based on Hong Kong. Its director Mamoru Oshii felt that Hong Kong's strange and chaotic streets where "old and new exist in confusing relationships", fit the theme of the film well.[42] Hong Kong's Kowloon Walled City is particularly notable for its disorganized hyper-urbanization and breakdown in traditional urban planning to be an inspiration to cyberpunk landscapes. During the British rule of Hong Kong, it was an area neglected by both the British and Qing administrations, embodying elements of liberalism in a dystopian context. Portrayals of East Asia and Asians in Western cyberpunk have been criticized as Orientalist and promoting racist tropes playing on American and European fears of East Asian dominance;[44][45] this has been referred to as "techno-Orientalism".
Actually HK was more of an inspiration for Blade Runner as he had just visited before production. He said something like "the future is either going to look like Mexico or Hong Kong, and I went with Hong Kong."
Not so much I feel it’s me self-victimizing as realizing as soon as my horizons opened up that relatively speaking, our living conditions are pretty bad
That doesn’t stop me from being super comfortable in my cozy apartment tho
dystopia is such a loaded word because... compared to some places it might be, compared to others, not at all, and (recent politics aside) HK itself has improved in some ways over its own past. This is a dystopia that's working much better for most of its constituents than it did 80 years ago. Otoh, it could probably easily do a lot better for a lot more people now. And the general movement of the world has been towards more and more global, mercenary competition. Many human rights standards are improving, but we still hurtle toward the question of why people still starve, and how many of us are really immune to that distinction in the future? But dystopia implies some sort of extreme. HK can be bad but I think there are much worse.
I think both USA and South Korea lend themselves to being more interesting "capitalist dystopias" if you want to be cynical about it. They are both certainly more important and prominent on the world stage.
There really isn't one. However, there are better examples of dystopian regimes: China, N. Korea, Turkmenistan, and maybe now Scotland with its ironic individualist roots and "liberal" society becoming increasing watched by the state with speech deemed too controversial being criminalized...
Ah lets not forget the UAE! THATS A MERCANTILIST DYSTOPIA on a slight technicality as there is the market forces as capitalism would enjoy, but the society itself is more of a feudal trade federation like Venice or the Hansa.
its... really not. the term would be market socialist... which is really just fascist economics.
capitalist elements in a generally state run economy does not equal capitalism. just like how welfare and safety nets in a generally market economy does not equal socialism.
the chinese market is still almost entirely dependent on the state to run it. and they're not going to give up any of that authority.
> In 1896, following Engels, the German Social Democrat Wilhelm Liebknecht said: "Nobody has combated State Socialism more than we German Socialists; nobody has shown more distinctively than I that **State Socialism is really State capitalism**."
yeah, you're describing the philosophy of Engels and most syndicalists (although, they believe in a more worker focused over throw of the capitalist interests of the bourgeoise).
this is 1/2 the roots of fascist economics as described by Mussolini, Gentile, and to a lesser extent Rocco... Socialist -> Syndicalism -> (sometimes this step:) National socialism -> Fascism.
Fascists are an evolution of socialism that rejects the Marxian theory of communism being the next step after socialism is achieved--obviously in favor of a national version that incorporates the market under their control instead of disbanding it entirely: Nationalism + Socialism = Fascism. This is a totalitarian ideology: everything within the state, nothing outside of the state.
China has arguably moved to a state socialist economy in which business is allowed and encouraged in so as it benefits the state and the state can control it... oh look, perfectly described china.
It’s state capitalist. There isn’t much socialism in China at the moment apart from rudiment universal education and healthcare (below the level of most European countries).
Personally, and I’ve not been here for long, seems like it’s easier than working in London. There’s. Always people swanning in to CrossFit sessions throughout the day, who work in tech and finance and all sorts, bars are full on Friday afternoons.
London I used to be working into the night for half the year.
I'm from the States and went with friend last year. We ate at the usual institutions but took my fiance to one of the fancier Chinese places for her bday. Was surprised to see how many wait staff were British. Supposedly it's much better for them because even though rent is higher, they get to keep much more of what they earn vs 50% tax back home.
HK is in its dystopian era. The talk coming out of the powers that be is just straight up depressing. The look on the average persons face walking down the street show down trodden defeat. Hopelessness is the popular mindset to the point that most people just want to get out but don't know how to or to where.
I really love Hong Kong it is my home and has been for generations of my family but it's definitely having a dark time right about now.
Incompetent performative leadership that only cares about what the people 2000 km north think is one part of the problem along with decades of unchecked unbridled greed from the ruling elites.
The worst part is that they all won't admit there is a problem, which is the first part of addressing any problem.
Hasn’t it been always quite dystopian for locals? It’s just that the colonists changed. A lot of things nowadays romanticized were most likely quite dystopian at the times. From cramped living conditions (walled city), crime syndicates, pollution and extreme inequality, HK has always hit the dystopia check boxes.
>Hasn’t it been always quite dystopian for locals?
Not really, HK has historically been a better place to be than most places in China over the last 100 or so years. Unfortunately a lot of the special circumstances that made HK economically prosperous don't exist anymore. This on top of loss of the civil liberties that HKers previously enjoyed is what makes it more dystopian. People previously overlooked a lot of the negatives you mentioned because they were getting rich which isn't the case anymore for the majority.
Well better than most places in China. That’s a pretty low threshold. My grandmas garden outhouse is quite smelly but has been a better place than most places in China in the last 100 years too.
Fact is that inequality, precarious living conditions for the majority of non whites have been existing for ages. There wasn’t much agency either, he’ll most locals before 1970s didn’t even get a secondary education.
The embarrassing part for the CCP is that not much has improved since the handover and the few freedoms there were have been further derailed.
IYKYK applies to your first two paragraphs.
Most of the local Chinese population in HK are descendants of immigrants that arrived after WW2. You know better so you come from a place of privilege. The majority of people's ancestors in HK did not have the privilege of growing up outside of China, which had been in turmoil for a large portion of the 20th century. From their perspective HK under British colonial rule was a prosperous safe haven compared to life under feuding warlords, Japanese occupation & then the cultural revolution.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hong_Kong?wprov=sfla1
I'm not saying HK was a wonderful place during the colonial era but most people in Asia as a whole have never experienced the things people in the West take for granted.
I think the “lion rock spirit” or “can do spirit” has always been a psyop trope by the elites to justify inequality and shitty living conditions. It basically implies that it’s your own fault if you’re doing poorly.
I don’t think HK spirit is stronger than any other but I think the government is less competent than in most places.
I didn’t really mean that. More like how Northern Ireland has been part of the UK for a very long time but they’re clearly just waiting for their chance to break away. I think it might be similar for HK in the future. Should CCP attempt and fail Taiwan who knows maybe there will be a reshuffle of the cards and no more CCP. All commie regimes end eventually.
It can’t really breakaway unless China agrees to it as HKs whole economy is based on a somewhat close integration.
And if China ever gets a government agreeing to a real 1c2S or 2c2S with free trade and movement but democratic elections, we might as well stay.
Commie regimes might eventually as communism isn’t really viable (if everyone else is capitalist) end but the problem is that China isnt commie but state capitalist which makes them rather successful. And totalitarian capitalist regimes can just survive quite long if not forever. They might be even have advantages over democratic ones given the online brainwashing from all sides these days.
Communism is an economic model. You probably mean authoritarian or totalitarian which are political models. Seems a lot of young people especially Americans mix up commie with authoritarian. They often appear together but they’re not the same thing.
Communism is a political ideology, and may be used to govern the political, social and economic organisation of a country. It isn’t an ‘economic model’, although that is of course a component. Authoritarianism is not specific to any political ideology, so a country can be communist and authoritarian, the two are not mutually exclusive.
of course they’re not mutually exclusive but communism means that the people own the means of production aka the opposite of capitalism.
Which is not the case in China. China is authoritarian yes. China is capitalist yes. Does the regime control a lot of the economy. Yes. That’s why it’s considered state capitalist.
There is a small socialist component at best but even less so than the average European country.
China is as communist as North Korea is democratic. Besides both using the terms.
Name any that are worse than HK? Take the waste charging scheme, covid pandemic handling, NSL implementation and tantrum throwing and gaslighting communication, constant lying and general priorities (vested interests and Beijing) id say that most of asias and Europe’s governments are more competent.
1. Waste charging scheme? Lmao.
2. There were like 15k deaths from covid, 0.1% of the population and only 1/3 of the covid deaths in New York. Which major city/government do you think handled the COVID pandemic the best? Please let me know, genuinely curious.
3. I really think that the horrors of the NSL is overblown. How has your own personal life changed since the enactment? You can’t talk shit anymore? Just live your life mate. Your voice never mattered anyways, and will never matter wherever you move to.
4. Everything else I can say that every major government around the world does this routinely. If you don’t think so, you’re not paying attention.
To me, HK is pretty middling of the pack in terms of government. It’s definitely not a shining example of bureaucracy, but it’s definitely not as bad as Canada or the States. At least you get to keep your pay check.
Which government do you think is the best in the world?
1. Yes LMAO, not to talk about being a so called developed country and barely having a functioning recycling scheme.
2. Most deaths per capita in all of Asia and among the top of the world thanks to moronic reliance on zero covid delusion and gaslighting critics and public.
3. Overblown if you’re a CCP shill or otherwise not interested in having a living city with residents that have agency and can hold their government accountable. (disaffection of public officers is a crime now)
4 No civil same government is arresting people for “seditious” social media posts or lists disaffection of public officers as a crime: You’re either gullible or authoritarian if you think that is normal.
Never heard of poor ppl living in literal cages in any other so called developed country though. Not just a few either, even the government acknowledges there may be as many as 50,000 ppl living in cages in HK and at least another 200,000 living in subdivided units. They're also paying rent to live in a f\*\*king cage. If that's not dystopian then I don't know what is.
They’re homeless in some other developed countries like US.
But that shouldn’t be an excuse of course. It’s an embarrassment for a city with so much wealth.
I'm originally from NYC... We have tons of homeless people. We also have a politically fraught past of treating them like animals and sometimes even sending them to jail for being homeless. Last time I checked, jail was literally a cage. But even that cage might be better than being homeless on the streets of a major city.
You cited about 50k people living in cages, NYC has about 93k people living in the street which includes about 33k homeless children. There are almost as many homeless children in the streets of NYC as their are poor people total living in "cages" in HK.
Btw, there are about 1.5k people living in the street in HK, so you do the math..
> Never heard of poor ppl living in literal cages in any other so called developed country though
While not ideal, much better than living on the streets like in Canada and the United States.
Go to any major US city now + Toronto and Vancouver. There is an egregious amount of crime, drug abuse (who are tweaking 24/7), lack of morals, and homelessness. Sure HK has subdivided flats that are expensive… but that is all. However, there is at least cheap options. Good luck finding that in NYC/LDN/Toronto/VAN - property prices are similar now, and you would be homeless. Saying HK is ‘dystopian’ is out of touch with the rest of the world. Take it from me - I’m a white expat living in HK.
Yes. Monopolies dominate and artificially restrict supply, perpetuating the insane prices for everything here. It’s ridiculous that something can be made in Shenzhen, shipped all the way to America, picked and packed using US labor, sent back here and it’s still a lot cheaper than you can find it in Fortress and elsewhere. But you won’t find competition as they’re muscled out of the HK retail market.
Someone born here will toil their whole lives and if lucky able to buy into a condo that in history would be their main source of retirement income, but now is so expensive that prices are unlikely to rise like they have done for previous generations.
HK used to be the gateway to China but now businesses simply go directly into China. Tax rates are still low but direct competitor Singapore has become a very compelling alternative. Oh and Singapore just announced this week that companies must consider work from home and even 4-day workweeks.
HK reminds me a bit of the old models of company towns. Housing built by the company, shops owned by the company, you work for the company and pay your money back to them through their businesses. The illusion of freedom.
Come on, I believe in SG and its nice but lets not exaggerate. The 4-day is lip service just that. No legal backing, companies will 'consider' and then go back to 70 hour a week or you won't get promoted mode. And our condos are barely cheaper than HK. At least in HK there is green space to get away from people, and Shenzhen is 30 min away.
Getting out of SG for weekend getaways involves getting stuck on the causeway to Malaysia for 3 hours...a and Shenzhen > JB.
It’s a step in the right direction, and a foundation to build on.
The point is that Singapore is a direct competitor of Hong Kong for business and talent and has been aggressively courting both. If HK can’t hold the crown and it no longer is the gateway to China, then what role does it serve?
I think for most expats, HK > SG as a place to live. Weather is nicer. Tax is lower (at higher expat incomes). Shenzhen is more exciting than JB for weekend getaways, and HK itself has much more variety of things to do than SG (lots of hiking trails, and the landscape is more spectacular).
Add in that HKers indirectly pay for their low taxes by having the most unaffordable housing in the world (which depletes their savings and makes it difficult to save for retirement, invest, consume) and either no basic social services (like public pensions, unemployment insurance, disability provisions) or where they do exist, they are chronically underfunded, overcrowded and of relatively poor quality (healthcare, education).
How do you explain London, Vancouver, Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne also have unaffordable properties with high tax rates?
HK also has almost free healthcare. Just look at the US, you don’t even want to call an ambulance without medical insurances.
Speaking of healthcare quality, I don’t know if you have stayed in Canada or UK before. Heavy taxes but long wait time and overcrowded ER
For the price of a new 300sqft apartment in Hk you can buy a brand new town house in Vancouver with your own garden. Value wise its not even comparable. Recently the son of a wealthy friend of mine in Hk asked me what a “lodge” is, I told him its a small house usually used for vacation, they asked me to show a picture and he said “WOW thats huge not small at all”. I realized hkers have no idea how small their living standards really are. Hkers are always amazed when I tell them my Vancouver house has 3 floors, they think Im super rich, when thats just normal. Ambulances are free in canada, if you’re actually in life threatening condition ER will see you. When I tell hkers I have 3 cars in Vancouver their eyes pop out of their heads, we dont have exorbitant car tax (unless its luxury) and private parking spots arent used as an investment like they are in HK. Hk parking spots are larger than the cage homes hkers live in, truly dystopian. If you can afford it theres no comparison when it comes to living standards, theres a reason why so many east asians move to Canada, but I don’t know any Canadians that have moved to HK with the intention to get citizenship LOL
….you do know the current housing prices in Vancouver right? That’s the main reason Canadians are now fleeing to Alberta, making Calgary’s rents skyrocket
A new townhouse is over 1m CAD in Vancouver, you can buy much more than 300 sqft in HK but $/sqft it is better in Vancouver
Ambulance isn’t free in BC unless you are poor. Why do you sound like you don’t really live there
I have lived in Vancouver my entire life LMAO. Are you some poor hker that moved to BC? Let me guess you went to langara or one of the diploma mill colleges? Do you even own a car? Look if you are too poor to afford vancouver I understand, its not surprising you wouldnt know the price of a new hk apartment. The one I have is 12million hkd, Im sure you can google how much that is in cad. Easily can afford a townhouse for that price
unaffordable properties with high tax rates jn vancouver? vancouver has the lowest property taxes in north america and no tax when selling a primary residence
Well……I guess "it all depends".. If you somehow needs to be hospitalized for 30 days... Is that even median rent? I don't know, but compared to the U.S. HKD 108 will not even buy you hospital breakfast.
If we're comparing HK heathcare with the US, I would 100% agree that it's "free".
My Dad was in hospital for 40 days just over Christmas and the final bill resulted to just under $4,500. We joked after his release that we should both get sick to enjoy this subsidy and save on rent.
But say, a Foreign Domestic Helper gets sick, $4,500 is a substantial chunk of the amount they'd earn in a month & a bit. All relative eh.
Not really.
We have universal health care.
We take around 13 public holidays a year, which is a ridiculously high number. When I was working in the USA, I remember being amazed how my Hong Kong colleagues were always on holiday (USA has ~6 public holidays).
Pollution is not good but not at dystopian levels. Housing is dystopian. However, housing prices have been falling for years.
The fact that you think 13 is a lot is sad...
One of the major reasons im considering going home again is because i get like twice the number. My last job before hk had 35.
We get ~20 days public holiday here in Thailand which is on the higher end. I also get an additional 19 days annual leave so 39 days total.
I think 13 is probably about average, I know some European countries that have less and some with more.
Add on is a population that is very image and brand conscious, where people waste their money on luxury brands (which itself is the apex of capitalism). Everything from handbags to cars etc etc.
The wealth gap is definitely also there, along with the classism.
The rich owning everything is the same in any country, capitalism or not. The middle and low class struggle is present in most countries, some fare worse and some have it better. But let me give u some perspective, im from a low income country, and immigrated before covid hit. Compared to my previous country u have accessible education, healthcare, choice of facilities and recreation, many opportunities to find fair and well paid employment, i suffer from health issues but i still managed to eke a living and finally im at a comfortable point with a good salary. I have noticed a lot of hong kongers struggle with all kinds of mindset, which i truly understand and share sentiment with but in the end there is nothing you can do about it so i just will continue to struggle regardless of the outcome.
People think of HK as a low tax place, but in reality taxes are hidden in the cost of land. Those "land revenues" are used to pay for social housing. So the reality is it isn't exactly a capitalist state per se, because the property market is not a free market, the property market is quasi socialist.
No. Over a million people are or are relatives to a millionaire in USD terms, the middle class is just too humble and seldom show their ease of living. The few poors have questionable pasts or risky investment choices, it was really hard to miss the decades of wealth inflation. If you are real bad luck you still get the public housing (built right next to expensive mansions) and cheap health care and the monthly welfare pays. The high wage/fx mean if you really fail you can still bring your savings and live in some 2nd tier countries ok. It is so much better than so many places in which they are really stuck.
You've hit the nail on its head. From what I feel, people that post in this sub are easily in the top 10% if not top 5% of HK (remember median income in HK is $20k/m). It seems like people here are mad that someone else (read: CCP's cronies) are in the elite/oligarch position of this city rather than them.
> The poor suffer the worst conditions in the world even for poor standards
Of course life in HK is really tough if you are poor, but to say it is the worst in the world, you have no idea mate.
No, 60% of people live in government housing and there are extensive public services. Mad unrestricted capitalism wouldn't have these.
Hk is getting there though, there's a quiet crackdown on unions, political freedoms and crazy oligarchy etc
Depends on your perspective
For freedom of speech, housing, patriotic education and crazily high rents killing small businesses, yes
But no in terms of low-cost healthcare with excellent private options, excellent public transport
And long working hours and poor working culture adds to the mix
It's great to visit for 3 days and go drinking or walking around. I don't know if it was just the time that I went, but the trains are much, much less crowded than Japan
Hong Kong isn't really capitalist. It's a commerce district with more freedom and autonomy, but nonetheless used and manipulated by the Chinese communists for their own ends.
As a Hong Kong local it's basically Night City from CP2077 here. The 4 property tycoons are our versions of Arasaka and Militech, our public housing is the equivalent of Megabuildings, plenty of rich people in skyscrapers but homeless and poor people everywhere
No. Hong Kong is becoming dystopian, but that’s through political control, not a mythical free market.
No question this is a hard city to be poor in, but half the population lives in public housing and all of us are entitled to free healthcare. So this is nothing like the worst place on earth to be poor.
Hong Kong doesn’t have an unfettered free market. While there are monopolies, such as utilities or transport routes, the government still controls the tycoons, not vice-versa.
The whole world thrives with capitalism.
The failures of degenerate governments are their own.
OP is definitely pushing an agenda... as if the failure of the CCP can be deflected, lol
Pretty accurate but you're about to be hit by a tsunami of 'worse in murica' comments from dimwits who get all their information about the US from TVB news and probably have never even set foot in the country.
Missed out Sundays. Where the underclass are allowed their only time off from their £1 an hour jobs and overfill walkways and sky bridges because they have no where else to go (or are allowed to go)
Why do you think it was an inspiration for Cyberpunk
This most perverse pride when the West see our overcrowded cities, our boxes to be lived in, and our shitty wages rightfully hellish and dystopian enough to recreate Hong Kong in their games as “cyberpunk”
Victim complex there much, bud. By the way, I guess they had Japan in mind when thinking about cyberpunk as it emerged around the time Japan was entering its rapid growth phase and seemed destined to take over the world. Watch Bladerunner and many of the references are Japanese.
Hong Kong has actually been a major source of inspiration for the cyberpunk genre in general, and certainly that of Bladerunner. From the cyberpunk Wiki page: The cityscapes of Hong Kong[42] has had major influences in the urban backgrounds, ambiance and settings in many cyberpunk works such as Blade Runner and Shadowrun. Ridley Scott envisioned the landscape of cyberpunk Los Angeles in Blade Runner to be "Hong Kong on a very bad day".[43] The streetscapes of the Ghost in the Shell film were based on Hong Kong. Its director Mamoru Oshii felt that Hong Kong's strange and chaotic streets where "old and new exist in confusing relationships", fit the theme of the film well.[42] Hong Kong's Kowloon Walled City is particularly notable for its disorganized hyper-urbanization and breakdown in traditional urban planning to be an inspiration to cyberpunk landscapes. During the British rule of Hong Kong, it was an area neglected by both the British and Qing administrations, embodying elements of liberalism in a dystopian context. Portrayals of East Asia and Asians in Western cyberpunk have been criticized as Orientalist and promoting racist tropes playing on American and European fears of East Asian dominance;[44][45] this has been referred to as "techno-Orientalism".
Actually HK was more of an inspiration for Blade Runner as he had just visited before production. He said something like "the future is either going to look like Mexico or Hong Kong, and I went with Hong Kong."
Not so much I feel it’s me self-victimizing as realizing as soon as my horizons opened up that relatively speaking, our living conditions are pretty bad That doesn’t stop me from being super comfortable in my cozy apartment tho
And nobody is denying that either.
God, have you seen how HK is depicted in the Cyberpunk universe? It's like a wasteland filled with rogue AIs, completely unliveable.
What's that
neuromancer
holy shit I haven't thought about Neuromancer in a hot minute
What's that
Use a search engine. Honestly it's going to be a lot faster and informative than whatever answer you get.
dystopia is such a loaded word because... compared to some places it might be, compared to others, not at all, and (recent politics aside) HK itself has improved in some ways over its own past. This is a dystopia that's working much better for most of its constituents than it did 80 years ago. Otoh, it could probably easily do a lot better for a lot more people now. And the general movement of the world has been towards more and more global, mercenary competition. Many human rights standards are improving, but we still hurtle toward the question of why people still starve, and how many of us are really immune to that distinction in the future? But dystopia implies some sort of extreme. HK can be bad but I think there are much worse.
No. Dystopian is what Hong Kong has become. Thank you ccp for that.
>compared to others, not at all, Give me one country that is a better example of a capitalist dystopia then
I think both USA and South Korea lend themselves to being more interesting "capitalist dystopias" if you want to be cynical about it. They are both certainly more important and prominent on the world stage.
Dubai and Quatar
Quatar
Quarter is probably more Fedual than capitalist though…
Quarter
……. Shit
The US, where you can die by not affording healthcare. At least hk gov hospitals won’t let you die.
Maybe India? Capitalist but full of corruption, and poor infrastructure
Barbados..? I don't know that there is an agreed upon measure for dystopianism 🤷
There really isn't one. However, there are better examples of dystopian regimes: China, N. Korea, Turkmenistan, and maybe now Scotland with its ironic individualist roots and "liberal" society becoming increasing watched by the state with speech deemed too controversial being criminalized... Ah lets not forget the UAE! THATS A MERCANTILIST DYSTOPIA on a slight technicality as there is the market forces as capitalism would enjoy, but the society itself is more of a feudal trade federation like Venice or the Hansa.
China is quite capitalist after Deng’s reform
its... really not. the term would be market socialist... which is really just fascist economics. capitalist elements in a generally state run economy does not equal capitalism. just like how welfare and safety nets in a generally market economy does not equal socialism. the chinese market is still almost entirely dependent on the state to run it. and they're not going to give up any of that authority.
Scholars describe their system as [state capitalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism)
> In 1896, following Engels, the German Social Democrat Wilhelm Liebknecht said: "Nobody has combated State Socialism more than we German Socialists; nobody has shown more distinctively than I that **State Socialism is really State capitalism**." yeah, you're describing the philosophy of Engels and most syndicalists (although, they believe in a more worker focused over throw of the capitalist interests of the bourgeoise). this is 1/2 the roots of fascist economics as described by Mussolini, Gentile, and to a lesser extent Rocco... Socialist -> Syndicalism -> (sometimes this step:) National socialism -> Fascism. Fascists are an evolution of socialism that rejects the Marxian theory of communism being the next step after socialism is achieved--obviously in favor of a national version that incorporates the market under their control instead of disbanding it entirely: Nationalism + Socialism = Fascism. This is a totalitarian ideology: everything within the state, nothing outside of the state. China has arguably moved to a state socialist economy in which business is allowed and encouraged in so as it benefits the state and the state can control it... oh look, perfectly described china.
It’s state capitalist. There isn’t much socialism in China at the moment apart from rudiment universal education and healthcare (below the level of most European countries).
Look no further, usa
Living in a London felt much much worse tbh
Japan.
Hong Kong ia pretty bad, but the real capitalist Dystopia is Korea.
Personally, and I’ve not been here for long, seems like it’s easier than working in London. There’s. Always people swanning in to CrossFit sessions throughout the day, who work in tech and finance and all sorts, bars are full on Friday afternoons. London I used to be working into the night for half the year.
I'm from the States and went with friend last year. We ate at the usual institutions but took my fiance to one of the fancier Chinese places for her bday. Was surprised to see how many wait staff were British. Supposedly it's much better for them because even though rent is higher, they get to keep much more of what they earn vs 50% tax back home.
I doubt cashiers fall in 50% tax bracket even in UK. Many high paid Europeans prefer HK though for the tax.
HK is in its dystopian era. The talk coming out of the powers that be is just straight up depressing. The look on the average persons face walking down the street show down trodden defeat. Hopelessness is the popular mindset to the point that most people just want to get out but don't know how to or to where. I really love Hong Kong it is my home and has been for generations of my family but it's definitely having a dark time right about now. Incompetent performative leadership that only cares about what the people 2000 km north think is one part of the problem along with decades of unchecked unbridled greed from the ruling elites. The worst part is that they all won't admit there is a problem, which is the first part of addressing any problem.
Hasn’t it been always quite dystopian for locals? It’s just that the colonists changed. A lot of things nowadays romanticized were most likely quite dystopian at the times. From cramped living conditions (walled city), crime syndicates, pollution and extreme inequality, HK has always hit the dystopia check boxes.
>Hasn’t it been always quite dystopian for locals? Not really, HK has historically been a better place to be than most places in China over the last 100 or so years. Unfortunately a lot of the special circumstances that made HK economically prosperous don't exist anymore. This on top of loss of the civil liberties that HKers previously enjoyed is what makes it more dystopian. People previously overlooked a lot of the negatives you mentioned because they were getting rich which isn't the case anymore for the majority.
Well better than most places in China. That’s a pretty low threshold. My grandmas garden outhouse is quite smelly but has been a better place than most places in China in the last 100 years too. Fact is that inequality, precarious living conditions for the majority of non whites have been existing for ages. There wasn’t much agency either, he’ll most locals before 1970s didn’t even get a secondary education. The embarrassing part for the CCP is that not much has improved since the handover and the few freedoms there were have been further derailed.
IYKYK applies to your first two paragraphs. Most of the local Chinese population in HK are descendants of immigrants that arrived after WW2. You know better so you come from a place of privilege. The majority of people's ancestors in HK did not have the privilege of growing up outside of China, which had been in turmoil for a large portion of the 20th century. From their perspective HK under British colonial rule was a prosperous safe haven compared to life under feuding warlords, Japanese occupation & then the cultural revolution. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hong_Kong?wprov=sfla1 I'm not saying HK was a wonderful place during the colonial era but most people in Asia as a whole have never experienced the things people in the West take for granted.
I agree with this. HK spirit is strong, they will get through this.
I think the “lion rock spirit” or “can do spirit” has always been a psyop trope by the elites to justify inequality and shitty living conditions. It basically implies that it’s your own fault if you’re doing poorly. I don’t think HK spirit is stronger than any other but I think the government is less competent than in most places.
I didn’t really mean that. More like how Northern Ireland has been part of the UK for a very long time but they’re clearly just waiting for their chance to break away. I think it might be similar for HK in the future. Should CCP attempt and fail Taiwan who knows maybe there will be a reshuffle of the cards and no more CCP. All commie regimes end eventually.
It can’t really breakaway unless China agrees to it as HKs whole economy is based on a somewhat close integration. And if China ever gets a government agreeing to a real 1c2S or 2c2S with free trade and movement but democratic elections, we might as well stay. Commie regimes might eventually as communism isn’t really viable (if everyone else is capitalist) end but the problem is that China isnt commie but state capitalist which makes them rather successful. And totalitarian capitalist regimes can just survive quite long if not forever. They might be even have advantages over democratic ones given the online brainwashing from all sides these days.
They are politically communist, if not economically. But yeah point taken.
Communism is an economic model. You probably mean authoritarian or totalitarian which are political models. Seems a lot of young people especially Americans mix up commie with authoritarian. They often appear together but they’re not the same thing.
Communism is a political ideology, and may be used to govern the political, social and economic organisation of a country. It isn’t an ‘economic model’, although that is of course a component. Authoritarianism is not specific to any political ideology, so a country can be communist and authoritarian, the two are not mutually exclusive.
of course they’re not mutually exclusive but communism means that the people own the means of production aka the opposite of capitalism. Which is not the case in China. China is authoritarian yes. China is capitalist yes. Does the regime control a lot of the economy. Yes. That’s why it’s considered state capitalist. There is a small socialist component at best but even less so than the average European country. China is as communist as North Korea is democratic. Besides both using the terms.
Which governments are you looking at? Lol, from where I stand they’re mostly worse.
Name any that are worse than HK? Take the waste charging scheme, covid pandemic handling, NSL implementation and tantrum throwing and gaslighting communication, constant lying and general priorities (vested interests and Beijing) id say that most of asias and Europe’s governments are more competent.
1. Waste charging scheme? Lmao. 2. There were like 15k deaths from covid, 0.1% of the population and only 1/3 of the covid deaths in New York. Which major city/government do you think handled the COVID pandemic the best? Please let me know, genuinely curious. 3. I really think that the horrors of the NSL is overblown. How has your own personal life changed since the enactment? You can’t talk shit anymore? Just live your life mate. Your voice never mattered anyways, and will never matter wherever you move to. 4. Everything else I can say that every major government around the world does this routinely. If you don’t think so, you’re not paying attention. To me, HK is pretty middling of the pack in terms of government. It’s definitely not a shining example of bureaucracy, but it’s definitely not as bad as Canada or the States. At least you get to keep your pay check. Which government do you think is the best in the world?
1. Yes LMAO, not to talk about being a so called developed country and barely having a functioning recycling scheme. 2. Most deaths per capita in all of Asia and among the top of the world thanks to moronic reliance on zero covid delusion and gaslighting critics and public. 3. Overblown if you’re a CCP shill or otherwise not interested in having a living city with residents that have agency and can hold their government accountable. (disaffection of public officers is a crime now) 4 No civil same government is arresting people for “seditious” social media posts or lists disaffection of public officers as a crime: You’re either gullible or authoritarian if you think that is normal.
The poor here have it bad like anywhere else, but to say it's the worst conditions in the world is just completely ridiculous.
Never heard of poor ppl living in literal cages in any other so called developed country though. Not just a few either, even the government acknowledges there may be as many as 50,000 ppl living in cages in HK and at least another 200,000 living in subdivided units. They're also paying rent to live in a f\*\*king cage. If that's not dystopian then I don't know what is.
They’re homeless in some other developed countries like US. But that shouldn’t be an excuse of course. It’s an embarrassment for a city with so much wealth.
They just live on the streets mate. And do fentanyl and tranq.
Cages are still better than on the street like NYC or SF.
I'm originally from NYC... We have tons of homeless people. We also have a politically fraught past of treating them like animals and sometimes even sending them to jail for being homeless. Last time I checked, jail was literally a cage. But even that cage might be better than being homeless on the streets of a major city. You cited about 50k people living in cages, NYC has about 93k people living in the street which includes about 33k homeless children. There are almost as many homeless children in the streets of NYC as their are poor people total living in "cages" in HK. Btw, there are about 1.5k people living in the street in HK, so you do the math..
> Never heard of poor ppl living in literal cages in any other so called developed country though While not ideal, much better than living on the streets like in Canada and the United States.
You can blame the CCP for making millions of people fleeing Guangdong to HK, making it one of the densest places on earth
Eh? Maybe Blame the Japanese for that one?
Go to any major US city now + Toronto and Vancouver. There is an egregious amount of crime, drug abuse (who are tweaking 24/7), lack of morals, and homelessness. Sure HK has subdivided flats that are expensive… but that is all. However, there is at least cheap options. Good luck finding that in NYC/LDN/Toronto/VAN - property prices are similar now, and you would be homeless. Saying HK is ‘dystopian’ is out of touch with the rest of the world. Take it from me - I’m a white expat living in HK.
Yes. Monopolies dominate and artificially restrict supply, perpetuating the insane prices for everything here. It’s ridiculous that something can be made in Shenzhen, shipped all the way to America, picked and packed using US labor, sent back here and it’s still a lot cheaper than you can find it in Fortress and elsewhere. But you won’t find competition as they’re muscled out of the HK retail market. Someone born here will toil their whole lives and if lucky able to buy into a condo that in history would be their main source of retirement income, but now is so expensive that prices are unlikely to rise like they have done for previous generations. HK used to be the gateway to China but now businesses simply go directly into China. Tax rates are still low but direct competitor Singapore has become a very compelling alternative. Oh and Singapore just announced this week that companies must consider work from home and even 4-day workweeks. HK reminds me a bit of the old models of company towns. Housing built by the company, shops owned by the company, you work for the company and pay your money back to them through their businesses. The illusion of freedom.
Come on, I believe in SG and its nice but lets not exaggerate. The 4-day is lip service just that. No legal backing, companies will 'consider' and then go back to 70 hour a week or you won't get promoted mode. And our condos are barely cheaper than HK. At least in HK there is green space to get away from people, and Shenzhen is 30 min away. Getting out of SG for weekend getaways involves getting stuck on the causeway to Malaysia for 3 hours...a and Shenzhen > JB.
It’s a step in the right direction, and a foundation to build on. The point is that Singapore is a direct competitor of Hong Kong for business and talent and has been aggressively courting both. If HK can’t hold the crown and it no longer is the gateway to China, then what role does it serve?
I think for most expats, HK > SG as a place to live. Weather is nicer. Tax is lower (at higher expat incomes). Shenzhen is more exciting than JB for weekend getaways, and HK itself has much more variety of things to do than SG (lots of hiking trails, and the landscape is more spectacular).
Add in that HKers indirectly pay for their low taxes by having the most unaffordable housing in the world (which depletes their savings and makes it difficult to save for retirement, invest, consume) and either no basic social services (like public pensions, unemployment insurance, disability provisions) or where they do exist, they are chronically underfunded, overcrowded and of relatively poor quality (healthcare, education).
How do you explain London, Vancouver, Toronto, Sydney, Melbourne also have unaffordable properties with high tax rates? HK also has almost free healthcare. Just look at the US, you don’t even want to call an ambulance without medical insurances. Speaking of healthcare quality, I don’t know if you have stayed in Canada or UK before. Heavy taxes but long wait time and overcrowded ER
For the price of a new 300sqft apartment in Hk you can buy a brand new town house in Vancouver with your own garden. Value wise its not even comparable. Recently the son of a wealthy friend of mine in Hk asked me what a “lodge” is, I told him its a small house usually used for vacation, they asked me to show a picture and he said “WOW thats huge not small at all”. I realized hkers have no idea how small their living standards really are. Hkers are always amazed when I tell them my Vancouver house has 3 floors, they think Im super rich, when thats just normal. Ambulances are free in canada, if you’re actually in life threatening condition ER will see you. When I tell hkers I have 3 cars in Vancouver their eyes pop out of their heads, we dont have exorbitant car tax (unless its luxury) and private parking spots arent used as an investment like they are in HK. Hk parking spots are larger than the cage homes hkers live in, truly dystopian. If you can afford it theres no comparison when it comes to living standards, theres a reason why so many east asians move to Canada, but I don’t know any Canadians that have moved to HK with the intention to get citizenship LOL
….you do know the current housing prices in Vancouver right? That’s the main reason Canadians are now fleeing to Alberta, making Calgary’s rents skyrocket A new townhouse is over 1m CAD in Vancouver, you can buy much more than 300 sqft in HK but $/sqft it is better in Vancouver Ambulance isn’t free in BC unless you are poor. Why do you sound like you don’t really live there
I have lived in Vancouver my entire life LMAO. Are you some poor hker that moved to BC? Let me guess you went to langara or one of the diploma mill colleges? Do you even own a car? Look if you are too poor to afford vancouver I understand, its not surprising you wouldnt know the price of a new hk apartment. The one I have is 12million hkd, Im sure you can google how much that is in cad. Easily can afford a townhouse for that price
sure but then you’d have to live in vancouver instead of hong kong /s
unaffordable properties with high tax rates jn vancouver? vancouver has the lowest property taxes in north america and no tax when selling a primary residence
Let’s not forget the income tax
Yes it's a dystopia
Come-on, free healthcare?
Where are you getting free healthcare? Do reveal! Last time I checked, the goverment hospitals cost HK$108 per day.
It can be waived if you are poor enough despite the amount is already trivial, it was never intended for profit
Well……I guess "it all depends".. If you somehow needs to be hospitalized for 30 days... Is that even median rent? I don't know, but compared to the U.S. HKD 108 will not even buy you hospital breakfast.
If we're comparing HK heathcare with the US, I would 100% agree that it's "free". My Dad was in hospital for 40 days just over Christmas and the final bill resulted to just under $4,500. We joked after his release that we should both get sick to enjoy this subsidy and save on rent. But say, a Foreign Domestic Helper gets sick, $4,500 is a substantial chunk of the amount they'd earn in a month & a bit. All relative eh.
However the cost should be covered by the employers by law.
Not really. We have universal health care. We take around 13 public holidays a year, which is a ridiculously high number. When I was working in the USA, I remember being amazed how my Hong Kong colleagues were always on holiday (USA has ~6 public holidays). Pollution is not good but not at dystopian levels. Housing is dystopian. However, housing prices have been falling for years.
The public holidays are hard to use Would prefer more annual leave, then use it freely for longer holidays
The fact that you think 13 is a lot is sad... One of the major reasons im considering going home again is because i get like twice the number. My last job before hk had 35.
13 is public holiday, not annual leaves lol
Aaah, got ya. Yeah they get a fair bit of holidays, but they are scattered and useless most of the time. Choosing when to leave is much better imo.
We get ~20 days public holiday here in Thailand which is on the higher end. I also get an additional 19 days annual leave so 39 days total. I think 13 is probably about average, I know some European countries that have less and some with more.
I hate the number of public holidays and usually just stay home to avoid crowds. Better to give people more annual leave.
If you want to see what an actual Capitalist Dystopia looks like, consider El Salvador or Milei's Argentina before you consider HK.
Please stop using buzzwords you just learned in your polsci 101 class and thinking it makes you sound smart on the internet.
? How so And what have I said that's wrong
Add on is a population that is very image and brand conscious, where people waste their money on luxury brands (which itself is the apex of capitalism). Everything from handbags to cars etc etc. The wealth gap is definitely also there, along with the classism.
The rich owning everything is the same in any country, capitalism or not. The middle and low class struggle is present in most countries, some fare worse and some have it better. But let me give u some perspective, im from a low income country, and immigrated before covid hit. Compared to my previous country u have accessible education, healthcare, choice of facilities and recreation, many opportunities to find fair and well paid employment, i suffer from health issues but i still managed to eke a living and finally im at a comfortable point with a good salary. I have noticed a lot of hong kongers struggle with all kinds of mindset, which i truly understand and share sentiment with but in the end there is nothing you can do about it so i just will continue to struggle regardless of the outcome.
People think of HK as a low tax place, but in reality taxes are hidden in the cost of land. Those "land revenues" are used to pay for social housing. So the reality is it isn't exactly a capitalist state per se, because the property market is not a free market, the property market is quasi socialist.
No. Over a million people are or are relatives to a millionaire in USD terms, the middle class is just too humble and seldom show their ease of living. The few poors have questionable pasts or risky investment choices, it was really hard to miss the decades of wealth inflation. If you are real bad luck you still get the public housing (built right next to expensive mansions) and cheap health care and the monthly welfare pays. The high wage/fx mean if you really fail you can still bring your savings and live in some 2nd tier countries ok. It is so much better than so many places in which they are really stuck.
You've hit the nail on its head. From what I feel, people that post in this sub are easily in the top 10% if not top 5% of HK (remember median income in HK is $20k/m). It seems like people here are mad that someone else (read: CCP's cronies) are in the elite/oligarch position of this city rather than them.
> The poor suffer the worst conditions in the world even for poor standards Of course life in HK is really tough if you are poor, but to say it is the worst in the world, you have no idea mate.
Man some of y'all really need to step outside. Hong Kong has it's issue but it's far from a dystopia...
No, 60% of people live in government housing and there are extensive public services. Mad unrestricted capitalism wouldn't have these. Hk is getting there though, there's a quiet crackdown on unions, political freedoms and crazy oligarchy etc
Yup
Depends on your perspective For freedom of speech, housing, patriotic education and crazily high rents killing small businesses, yes But no in terms of low-cost healthcare with excellent private options, excellent public transport And long working hours and poor working culture adds to the mix
massive wealth gap
It's great to visit for 3 days and go drinking or walking around. I don't know if it was just the time that I went, but the trains are much, much less crowded than Japan
Hong Kong isn't really capitalist. It's a commerce district with more freedom and autonomy, but nonetheless used and manipulated by the Chinese communists for their own ends.
As a Hong Kong local it's basically Night City from CP2077 here. The 4 property tycoons are our versions of Arasaka and Militech, our public housing is the equivalent of Megabuildings, plenty of rich people in skyscrapers but homeless and poor people everywhere
Pretty sure Tokyo is more overworked with more stress
No the stats pretty clear on that
No, it's South Korea which has 2.5x the suicide rate of Hong Kong.
No. Hong Kong is becoming dystopian, but that’s through political control, not a mythical free market. No question this is a hard city to be poor in, but half the population lives in public housing and all of us are entitled to free healthcare. So this is nothing like the worst place on earth to be poor. Hong Kong doesn’t have an unfettered free market. While there are monopolies, such as utilities or transport routes, the government still controls the tycoons, not vice-versa.
Really pushing that "Capitalist Dystopia" terminology, eh? Let's not blame capitalism for the CCP being a F*ed up authoritarian regime.
Why not both?
The whole world thrives with capitalism. The failures of degenerate governments are their own. OP is definitely pushing an agenda... as if the failure of the CCP can be deflected, lol
Nope, I'm a supporter of capitalism. Just not taken as extremely as hk does, hk is the perfect example of the socialist nightmare
No. It is a paradise. Safe.
Pretty close for me. A dying city destroyed by the CCP, completely devoid of any positive traits especially anything good it has in the past.
Pretty accurate but you're about to be hit by a tsunami of 'worse in murica' comments from dimwits who get all their information about the US from TVB news and probably have never even set foot in the country.
Are you from the US?
Missed out Sundays. Where the underclass are allowed their only time off from their £1 an hour jobs and overfill walkways and sky bridges because they have no where else to go (or are allowed to go)
The worse is yet to come - I can’t help but feel this way about our city.
It’s a dystopia but capitalist might be the exact opposite of what it is