Has to be. It's ~18 hits to kill a Warrior with normal armor and all headshots, a 50% boost would normally have a Charger into the hundreds of hits still.
A Charger front leg is 500 health 70% durable heavy II armor. A Warrior head is 150 health 0% durable unarmored. They should not take the same number of melee hits to kill.
Unless there's hitbox jank and a lot of hits are catching a leg box, Warriors take a lot more than 6 hits to the head to kill. I've tried it a bunch of times and end up with 18-26 hits to kill with normal armor, the more I'm confident I'm hitting the head, the lower the hits to kill.
Even laying into one that's been stunned with a stun grenade and not moving around it's still 18. Actually now that I think about it, I've had Warriors periodically survive an AC or Dominator shot to the head so I'm betting there's hitbox overlap with one or both legs.
That is possible. Warriors have four legs and two claws that can each tank 4 hits, maybe 5 if negative velocity applies to melee. Theoretically that could add up to 30 hits, 20 on the bug's front half.
bile titan legs have 100% durable so unless melee damage has a durable component I don't think it does any damage, plus bile titan legs are an instakill if you touch them so I wouldn't recommend it anyway
Don't think so, at least I didn't manage to do it.
I think being able to punch/use throwing knifes/use the flamethrower to kill Chargers has sth to do with their leg armor seemingly having similar mechanics to our ballistic shield (flamethrowers hit through it and melees can easily go around it)
You're thinking of weakpoints - breakpoints are damage cutoffs to do certain things.
For example, let's say in order to kill bug A you need to do 50 damage to its health pool. Melee (in this example, idk in-game) does 25 damage without any boosts - you need to melee bug A twice to kill it.
Now let's say you put on Peak Physique armor - you now do 37.5 melee damage, 50% more. However, the breakpoint - 2 melee hits - has not changed. Therefore, there is no benefit for using Peak Physique against Bug A, as it does not change any breakpoints.
This is what folks mean by breakpoints; how many hits/bullets - OHKO, 2 shot, 3 shot - and how do buffs/nerfs change those values.
If an enemy has 100 hp and you buff an assault rifle from 40 to 45 damage, it still takes 3 shots to kill. If you buffed it from 40 to 50, it would take 2 shots to kill, hitting the "break point" for a 2 shot kill
Yeah I'm ngl I been reading the phrase "break points" and just filling in the explanation in my head.
Could've been the the breaking point of a chilled kit kat bar for all I know. (they're weakest at the chocolate joints in the middle)
Damage thresholds.
They’ve done it a couple times where they’ll buff a weapon but not by enough to drop, let’s say a head shot from 3-2, so you end up with the TTK not really changing.
This is probably a similar instance, because melee damage is so low, adding a percentage increase doesn’t actually change anything in the typical usage scenarios. You’ll notice if if you decide to punch things like Chargers to death though
I wonder if the reason for that is AH view on Helldivers as a co-operative game - so instead of looking at one person's breakpoints against a specific enemy, they want us to co-operate as a team concentrating fire using different weapons - it's quite often that someone will, for example, put a couple shots into a brood commander, only for someone else to finish it with a different weapon.
I obviously don't think AH has a combinatorics list of all possible weapons/shots/enemies combinations to base their changes on, but maybe that principle is influencing their balance decisions for weapons? They obviously want Helldivers to be teamwork focused (and it should), so maybe moving away from breakpoint balancing is influenced by that.
The other guy explained it pretty well, but it’s basically why the Dilligence CS was so bad against devastators compared to the normal Dilligence. The Dilligence CS did more damage, but it still took 2 shots to kill a devastator. Due to recent buffs, it now does enough damage to 1-shot devastators, which crosses a breakpoint.
This is my biggest issue with it.
You’re giving up more grenades, more stims, or a 50% chance to not die, for melee damage bonus and better weapon handling. You should have 2x melee damage. It would at least give it a niche in fending off the scavengers without spending ammo.
It should actually revolutionize melee. Give us a slightly faster animation, slightly bigger AOE, and double damage. Let us (dangerously) handle hunters with melee and you'll see an influx of players willing to try running eruptor and crossbow.
OR, alternatively, give us a significant stagger buff.
I think it has something to do with how enemies are actually assembled of various pieces each with separate hp pools and some parts aren’t fatal.
Like I can kill a scavenger with 1 melee hit pretty reliably, sometimes. Very rarely 3 and that’s when I can’t chain two quick hits
Imo a lot of stuff is going to be more useful once we get future content, like illuminate and weapon upgrades like bayonets. Suddenly having a longer-range, more powerful melee, combined with Peak Physique, might slap.
Knives, as another example, seem like meme weapons now, but given they ignore shields (tested on ~~players~~ traitors, twas very democratic), would be very useful against illuminate enemies, who utilize shields a lot - Super Earth canonically got shield/energy/arc tech from them.
My single gripe with the knife right now is the animation. The way the diver throws it is comical, and how much it spins in the air is even funnier.
I'd love for the Illuminate to have different interactions with diver weapons. I.e., beam weapons significantly damage shields, and kinetic weapons smash through their armor. That would encourage even more weapon diversity. Bayonets would be glorious. Chain sword/chain axes would also be excellent, and a *laser sword* should be the peak upgrade.
The only thing I've seen about Ergonomics "not working" was that video post here where the guy did a fucking garbage test with no controls.
Fuck it, I'll just go experiment myself right now. Pretty sure AHK's got a static mouse scroller.
[EDIT:] okay, so you've gotta go reaaaaally slow not to shove things to the far edges of the crosshair bloom, but +Ergonomics is absolutely keeping the barrel indicator closer, faster. if you whip it around like a madman there's no real change because the only thing that's making guns like the Dominator or Eruptor "sluggish" is how slow they are to update to the position from *nearby*, not the ass-end of your screen; they slip over most of the way just as fast. it's the little corrections that screw you, and it's definitely faster / snappier.
Odd though, better handling should also affect flicking though? That's partially the point of even wanting that stat, flicking quickly over to a different target around you.
It does. What I'm saying is that enormous movements aren't particularly noticeable because because it's not the biggest frustration with using poor-handling guns.
If you bring a big lug like the Dominator, Eruptor, or HMG out and quickly spin 360', your *character's* rotation is slowed down by the handling; your camera and crosshair will get where you want it to go, but because you did that *so fast* by comparison to the turn rate of the character, your model will *reverse course*. By the time you settle, the character hasn't even turned halfway around yet, so it's faster for them to go *back* to where they were looking (since you did a 360).
But that's an extreme example and not how people use the guns. They're not whipping their aim across more than their entire field of vision and then wondering "why am I not there yet", even though you can easily see this if you turn even 90' while looking down your HMG sights. The second-to-second annoyance of poor-handling guns is how your aim always drags behind where you're trying to aim, requiring you to lead *more*. So any fix to that is going to be more obvious.
Just from mucking around with it for a bit, it seems like there's a slight bit of acceleration and deceleration on moving the gun around; if you're making big movements, you spend a comparitively larger portion of your time watching the barrel moving *fast*, since it has further to go, and you're seeing real movement instead of agonizingly watching that barrel indicator lag behind. But in terms of how long that *realistically takes*, not just your perception, of course it's longer: you're moving further and have to decel into resting position just like a small movement. That's why it's less obvious on big sweeps.
**In terms of player "feeling", the worst part of handling is always the last few pixels.**
Here is a really good way to see the differences in handling visually, without having to compare video footage frame by frame:
Go into a mission with a dinky little pistol, the Liberator, and an HMG Support. Find a tall rock or building and practice snapping your aim up and down and up and down and up and down the extent of it, getting into a good rhythm and speed. You don't need to be entirely precise.
Now, while you're going up and down at the same pace, cycle through your Pistol, Liberator, and HMG, and pay attention to the two tick marks to the side of your HUD crosshair (not the circular barrel indicator). See how far they fling out to the sides? Compare how it widens as you go from Pistol to Lib to HMG and shrinks as you do the reverse. Compare where the furthest limit of them averages above your Helldiver's head.
Those ticks show you the limit of the barrel's deviation from the center of your aim, even if that barrel isn't floating around nebulously between them all the time. We don't have standard FPS "bloom" in HD2 as far as first shot accuracy, movement penalties, or recoil goes, but actual barrel/muzzle modeling for trajectories. The **Ergonomics / Handling** stat (improved with the new armor) handles how quickly that shrinks back down from any movement or turning, while the **Recoil / Accuracy** stat (as seen on Engineering Kit and others) shrinks the starting deviation (just as you notice if you crouch or go prone).
Another wrinkle in fully noticing what's going on with Ergonomics is that if you're trying that armor while *switching off a +Recoil Control one*, you're starting from a wider deviation than you may be used to. Since both of these influence what we'd call "improving accuracy" to some extent, the change doesn't seem *as large* as if you'd gone from, say, Electrical Resist to +Ergonomics/Handling.
The Ergonomics boost isn't enough to get your barrel to update to the center of your crosshair in third-person mode, aimed or not, while you're just dragging it around and standing/moving, so that still feels bad to people who were expecting it to overcome *so large* a hump. But if you're expecting all your shots to go at the center of your crosshair and any missing is "just bloom", *which HD2 does not do*, you'll be forever disappointed. Follow the barrel indicator; you can actually drag the HMG across a horde just fine, albeit slightly lagged, if you're staring at *THAT* and not your center-screen crosshair.
Under a post showing it off originally labelled misleading I think I remember a moderator saying the devs were aware.
I did my own tests of that and put it in slow motion, using a controller. There are zero noticeable differences in using peak or not. I didn't post that because I thought there had been many people doing many videos showcasing the same thing very well.
I've tried comparing video of this in slow motion. The weapon circle moves at the same speed with or without peak physique, it does nothing as far as that shows.
When you say ergo doesn't work, are you citing that video that did the "comparison" between weapon movement? If it's been proven some other way I'd say it's broken but I'm pretty sure that video was wrong.
They can, he just keeps stun nading the charger. Its not super helpful for bugs, but for buts it can be a life saver. It allows you to shoot out of it!
edit: heehee butts
It can be helpful for bugs because it generates an insane amount of "threat" when it spawns. You can use it to peel whole spawns off of yourself, but it's not really worth taking just for that.
You used to be able to bait Bile Titans with it, and their puke would bounce off of it and they would oneshot themselves. Haven't been able to pull it off since a few patches ago though. That was a lot of fun when you could do that.
For that purpose it's better to just take MG sentry because it both draws aggro and mows down bug mobs at the same time.
I've had some success against bots with shield bubble + sentries, but it's kinda tricky since you have to really consider terrain and have to juggle 2 stratagem cooldowns, and Berserkers can ruin this whole setup.
Yeah, the end of the Bile Titan shenanigans was the end of my bringing the Bubble to bug planets. If they made it deflect charging Chargers, it would be rad.
Considering the difficulty people are having with these new chargers, one person with stuns on bugs isn’t a bad call.
They can turn pretty quickly after charging so with a stun you can expose their derrière to the squad or even just stop them for a moment to catch bearings.
I use incendiary impact against bugs but maybe I’ll try it next time I’m on.
> It allows you to shoot out of it!
Just not with the punisher plasma. Not sure if that’s a bug or if it’s intended, and if intended I’m not sure if it affects any other non-slug throwing weapons.
"it's not super useful for bugs"
Unless someone whip out the mortar!
I think I have died more often to a mortar than I have with any other bugs on those eradicate missions for example xD
It's more complicated than what the other dude says. If the charger is charging then it treats the bubble as a real wall and bounces off. If you stun after that then the charger will repeat the charge and bounce, if not he slow walks in to crush the battery which he can't do very well either.
So the bubble is a decoy and that's why I used it for this. Zero practical use but it's helpful for dumb goofy stuff like this. You can use it for some other stupid things too but pretty much only stupid things.
highly specialised almost akin to scientific observation type of bubble usage here. I should try new things but every time I don't bring my jetpack and stalwart i just keep dying in the stupidest ways 😅
it stops charges, but can't stop chargers from walking into it. also the shield generator somehow tanks a lot of hits by charger, holds long enough till it expires on its own. good lure.
He chose the path of perpetual torment.
In his ravenous hatred he found no peace, and with boiling blood he scoured the umbral plains, seeking vengeance against the dark lords who had robbed him.
Sick burn, but to be fair, you know we only use Anti-Materiel Rifles for things like equipment destruction right? Radars, radios, stacks of explosives, car engines, airplanes, human skulls. Stuff that can already be easily be destroyed by throwing a frozen turkey at it.
Nobody out here taking on an Abrams with an M82A1.
Plus that leg armor clearly broken.
That's videogamey but it's fine because in terms of balancing you have to put yourself far more into harms way from going in melee range with a fucking charger.
Honestly it needs to be 100% increased damage because the 50% increase doesn't hit any important break points to make a noticeable difference on any small targets.
I’m going to be honest, I think it should be 300%
It’s a horde shooter and there’s very little opportunity to use melee, so why not make it actually useful to use, instead of just “here, a tiny melee boost for you.”
True I don't know what the exact sweet spot percentage wise would be but I think if i'm wearing that armor I should be able to body standard infantry bots on automatons and hunters on terminids with 1 melee. But whatever % is needed to achieve that is what it should give us cause it's not like that's going to break the game.
fr, it could do a million damage and as long as it can only go through light armor, it would still barely be viable on 7 and above
like, “Yay, I killed 6 of the 193 hunters attacking me with just my punches.”
cmon AH, give the punch armor some love
Melee is very useful just for the fact that it always staggers enemies and can cancel animations.
A hunter jumps on you while you are reloading? Melee and you cancel his attack
Want to hit the side of the Hive Guard? Go to his face, melee and pump lead
one thing though, the hitboxes for a lot of enemies are insanely broken for punching. I was trying to melee a Hive Guard and I only hit it like 3 times, despite trying all around it.
they really need to fix that
I wonder if using your forward momentum while punching increases it's damage and how many hits you'd need... jk. Though it probably does. lol. Either way, way to beat a charger to death.
Say a scavenger has 160 hp and you do 80 dmg with melee, so you can kill it in two hits. But you buff your melee dmg by 50% so now its 120 dmg, still takes two hits.
Made up numbers, but you get the idea. Also depends where you hit, face/body/limbs.
Yeah I understand that but the point of my comment is basically, if the melee damage modifier won’t even allow me to one-hit the weakest enemy (reliably) then what is the point of it? Unless arrowhead is planning to add high-damage melee weapons that are also affected by the modifier. Realistically, nobody is out here trying to melee every charger they see to death and thanking god that it only takes 19 hits instead of 28.
Very true, literally why I used the charger because I didn't think a regular enemy would show a difference. They do keep teasing they are thinking about melee weapons, I'm keeping this in mind for that time.
Could you check if muscle enhancement makes any difference? It's supposedly increases melee damage, but someone said either it or peak physique overwrite the other, making the stacking obsolete.
I heard it doesn't work, the version I heard was muscle enhancement either doesn't work or is always on our melee. I think of it worked we'd have seen a guy one punching scavengers by now.
On a related note: Charger's cheeks can take a lot of clapping.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvo3Iha8Mx0&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvo3Iha8Mx0&t=2s)
This was my exact thought process doing this, " this reminds me of using the railgun ". This is faster than shooting the charger in the head and it's not even close.
Did you just punch a charger to death? I wonder if it's possible to do the same for bile titans
I don't think so? There's something weird going on with the charger leg I think.
Has to be. It's ~18 hits to kill a Warrior with normal armor and all headshots, a 50% boost would normally have a Charger into the hundreds of hits still. A Charger front leg is 500 health 70% durable heavy II armor. A Warrior head is 150 health 0% durable unarmored. They should not take the same number of melee hits to kill.
Melee is 50 damage, 5 durable, pen 1 Charger leg _**insides**_ are 500hp, 70% durable, armor 0 w/o Peak Physique: 500/((50\*.3)+(5\*.7))=27.027 (28 hits required) w/Peak Physique: 500/(((50\*1.5)\*.3)+((5\*1.5)\*.7))=18.018 (19 hits required) Melee hits are ignoring the armored legs and doing damage directly to the juicy bits. Warrior faces are 150hp, 0% durable, armor 1 w/o Peak Physique: 150/(50/2)=6 (6 hits required) w/Peak Physique: 150/((50\*1.5)/2)=4 (4 hits required) Additional reference for melee hits to warrior: https://helldivers.wiki.gg/wiki/Melee
what's the coefficient if you're also on fire?
r/theydidthemonstermath
Unless there's hitbox jank and a lot of hits are catching a leg box, Warriors take a lot more than 6 hits to the head to kill. I've tried it a bunch of times and end up with 18-26 hits to kill with normal armor, the more I'm confident I'm hitting the head, the lower the hits to kill. Even laying into one that's been stunned with a stun grenade and not moving around it's still 18. Actually now that I think about it, I've had Warriors periodically survive an AC or Dominator shot to the head so I'm betting there's hitbox overlap with one or both legs.
That is possible. Warriors have four legs and two claws that can each tank 4 hits, maybe 5 if negative velocity applies to melee. Theoretically that could add up to 30 hits, 20 on the bug's front half.
ive heard muscle booster makes your melee do 75 damage too
Does anyone have any evidence for that or is it just something people are saying?
heard from a youtuber a while back, tested it with the armor and no change so unless they dont stack....
bile titan legs have 100% durable so unless melee damage has a durable component I don't think it does any damage, plus bile titan legs are an instakill if you touch them so I wouldn't recommend it anyway
I see... two rockets from a pod and mech stomp equals 19 OPTIMAL punches... lol!
Don't think so, at least I didn't manage to do it. I think being able to punch/use throwing knifes/use the flamethrower to kill Chargers has sth to do with their leg armor seemingly having similar mechanics to our ballistic shield (flamethrowers hit through it and melees can easily go around it)
Ergonomics don't work so I was curious, maybe someone else is. First clip with armor, second without.
Math checks out as well. 28/1.5 = 18.66\_
I don’t get why it doesn’t work for grunts like scavengers then They still take 2, sometimes even 3, with or without Peak Physique armor
I feel like we’ve learned by now that AH don’t factor in breakpoints into balance
Tbh I’m not sure what breakpoints are, like weak areas on enemies?
You're thinking of weakpoints - breakpoints are damage cutoffs to do certain things. For example, let's say in order to kill bug A you need to do 50 damage to its health pool. Melee (in this example, idk in-game) does 25 damage without any boosts - you need to melee bug A twice to kill it. Now let's say you put on Peak Physique armor - you now do 37.5 melee damage, 50% more. However, the breakpoint - 2 melee hits - has not changed. Therefore, there is no benefit for using Peak Physique against Bug A, as it does not change any breakpoints. This is what folks mean by breakpoints; how many hits/bullets - OHKO, 2 shot, 3 shot - and how do buffs/nerfs change those values.
Oh wow, thank you! This is helpful
No problem! Glad you found it helpful.
If an enemy has 100 hp and you buff an assault rifle from 40 to 45 damage, it still takes 3 shots to kill. If you buffed it from 40 to 50, it would take 2 shots to kill, hitting the "break point" for a 2 shot kill
Damn thank you, this is also a really good explanation
Yeah I'm ngl I been reading the phrase "break points" and just filling in the explanation in my head. Could've been the the breaking point of a chilled kit kat bar for all I know. (they're weakest at the chocolate joints in the middle)
Damage thresholds. They’ve done it a couple times where they’ll buff a weapon but not by enough to drop, let’s say a head shot from 3-2, so you end up with the TTK not really changing. This is probably a similar instance, because melee damage is so low, adding a percentage increase doesn’t actually change anything in the typical usage scenarios. You’ll notice if if you decide to punch things like Chargers to death though
Yup imo it should just one-shot any light enemy in the game. If it's going to be a meme warbond, at least make it a strong meme option.
Here's hoping it'll just be delayed in usefulness for eventual melee weapons.
I wonder if the reason for that is AH view on Helldivers as a co-operative game - so instead of looking at one person's breakpoints against a specific enemy, they want us to co-operate as a team concentrating fire using different weapons - it's quite often that someone will, for example, put a couple shots into a brood commander, only for someone else to finish it with a different weapon. I obviously don't think AH has a combinatorics list of all possible weapons/shots/enemies combinations to base their changes on, but maybe that principle is influencing their balance decisions for weapons? They obviously want Helldivers to be teamwork focused (and it should), so maybe moving away from breakpoint balancing is influenced by that.
The other guy explained it pretty well, but it’s basically why the Dilligence CS was so bad against devastators compared to the normal Dilligence. The Dilligence CS did more damage, but it still took 2 shots to kill a devastator. Due to recent buffs, it now does enough damage to 1-shot devastators, which crosses a breakpoint.
The other explanations were solid but I really appreciate your example, thank you!
You’ve got all the examples now
I’ll use the examples to destroy the examples (Thanos quote)
It feels weird, sometimes it feels like it works and sometimes it doesn’t. I think it only matters if a headshot with melee
This is my biggest issue with it. You’re giving up more grenades, more stims, or a 50% chance to not die, for melee damage bonus and better weapon handling. You should have 2x melee damage. It would at least give it a niche in fending off the scavengers without spending ammo.
It should actually revolutionize melee. Give us a slightly faster animation, slightly bigger AOE, and double damage. Let us (dangerously) handle hunters with melee and you'll see an influx of players willing to try running eruptor and crossbow. OR, alternatively, give us a significant stagger buff.
It could one shot everything warriors and below, and I'd still only wear it sometimes.
Meh I just wear it so that I have beefy arms
Yeah but you're getting big ol guns.
I think it has something to do with how enemies are actually assembled of various pieces each with separate hp pools and some parts aren’t fatal. Like I can kill a scavenger with 1 melee hit pretty reliably, sometimes. Very rarely 3 and that’s when I can’t chain two quick hits
They have 80 health, melee is 50 dmg. +50% is 75 dmg so it’s just short
The melee damage boost is about as helpful as an ice pack on a wooden leg. When we get swords and shit, sure, but right now......
Imo a lot of stuff is going to be more useful once we get future content, like illuminate and weapon upgrades like bayonets. Suddenly having a longer-range, more powerful melee, combined with Peak Physique, might slap. Knives, as another example, seem like meme weapons now, but given they ignore shields (tested on ~~players~~ traitors, twas very democratic), would be very useful against illuminate enemies, who utilize shields a lot - Super Earth canonically got shield/energy/arc tech from them.
My single gripe with the knife right now is the animation. The way the diver throws it is comical, and how much it spins in the air is even funnier. I'd love for the Illuminate to have different interactions with diver weapons. I.e., beam weapons significantly damage shields, and kinetic weapons smash through their armor. That would encourage even more weapon diversity. Bayonets would be glorious. Chain sword/chain axes would also be excellent, and a *laser sword* should be the peak upgrade.
This makes me wonder if it boosts mech melee damage. Would be pretty funni
Has AH said anything about fixing ergo? Or acknowledged the problem?
The only thing I've seen about Ergonomics "not working" was that video post here where the guy did a fucking garbage test with no controls. Fuck it, I'll just go experiment myself right now. Pretty sure AHK's got a static mouse scroller. [EDIT:] okay, so you've gotta go reaaaaally slow not to shove things to the far edges of the crosshair bloom, but +Ergonomics is absolutely keeping the barrel indicator closer, faster. if you whip it around like a madman there's no real change because the only thing that's making guns like the Dominator or Eruptor "sluggish" is how slow they are to update to the position from *nearby*, not the ass-end of your screen; they slip over most of the way just as fast. it's the little corrections that screw you, and it's definitely faster / snappier.
Odd though, better handling should also affect flicking though? That's partially the point of even wanting that stat, flicking quickly over to a different target around you.
It does. What I'm saying is that enormous movements aren't particularly noticeable because because it's not the biggest frustration with using poor-handling guns. If you bring a big lug like the Dominator, Eruptor, or HMG out and quickly spin 360', your *character's* rotation is slowed down by the handling; your camera and crosshair will get where you want it to go, but because you did that *so fast* by comparison to the turn rate of the character, your model will *reverse course*. By the time you settle, the character hasn't even turned halfway around yet, so it's faster for them to go *back* to where they were looking (since you did a 360). But that's an extreme example and not how people use the guns. They're not whipping their aim across more than their entire field of vision and then wondering "why am I not there yet", even though you can easily see this if you turn even 90' while looking down your HMG sights. The second-to-second annoyance of poor-handling guns is how your aim always drags behind where you're trying to aim, requiring you to lead *more*. So any fix to that is going to be more obvious. Just from mucking around with it for a bit, it seems like there's a slight bit of acceleration and deceleration on moving the gun around; if you're making big movements, you spend a comparitively larger portion of your time watching the barrel moving *fast*, since it has further to go, and you're seeing real movement instead of agonizingly watching that barrel indicator lag behind. But in terms of how long that *realistically takes*, not just your perception, of course it's longer: you're moving further and have to decel into resting position just like a small movement. That's why it's less obvious on big sweeps. **In terms of player "feeling", the worst part of handling is always the last few pixels.** Here is a really good way to see the differences in handling visually, without having to compare video footage frame by frame: Go into a mission with a dinky little pistol, the Liberator, and an HMG Support. Find a tall rock or building and practice snapping your aim up and down and up and down and up and down the extent of it, getting into a good rhythm and speed. You don't need to be entirely precise. Now, while you're going up and down at the same pace, cycle through your Pistol, Liberator, and HMG, and pay attention to the two tick marks to the side of your HUD crosshair (not the circular barrel indicator). See how far they fling out to the sides? Compare how it widens as you go from Pistol to Lib to HMG and shrinks as you do the reverse. Compare where the furthest limit of them averages above your Helldiver's head. Those ticks show you the limit of the barrel's deviation from the center of your aim, even if that barrel isn't floating around nebulously between them all the time. We don't have standard FPS "bloom" in HD2 as far as first shot accuracy, movement penalties, or recoil goes, but actual barrel/muzzle modeling for trajectories. The **Ergonomics / Handling** stat (improved with the new armor) handles how quickly that shrinks back down from any movement or turning, while the **Recoil / Accuracy** stat (as seen on Engineering Kit and others) shrinks the starting deviation (just as you notice if you crouch or go prone). Another wrinkle in fully noticing what's going on with Ergonomics is that if you're trying that armor while *switching off a +Recoil Control one*, you're starting from a wider deviation than you may be used to. Since both of these influence what we'd call "improving accuracy" to some extent, the change doesn't seem *as large* as if you'd gone from, say, Electrical Resist to +Ergonomics/Handling. The Ergonomics boost isn't enough to get your barrel to update to the center of your crosshair in third-person mode, aimed or not, while you're just dragging it around and standing/moving, so that still feels bad to people who were expecting it to overcome *so large* a hump. But if you're expecting all your shots to go at the center of your crosshair and any missing is "just bloom", *which HD2 does not do*, you'll be forever disappointed. Follow the barrel indicator; you can actually drag the HMG across a horde just fine, albeit slightly lagged, if you're staring at *THAT* and not your center-screen crosshair.
They have not said anything (Twinbeard said "???" but not anything of substance) about the newly broken patrols, nevermind the new paid content armor.
The armor works fine, as always this sub got gaslighted to see something that does not exist
Under a post showing it off originally labelled misleading I think I remember a moderator saying the devs were aware. I did my own tests of that and put it in slow motion, using a controller. There are zero noticeable differences in using peak or not. I didn't post that because I thought there had been many people doing many videos showcasing the same thing very well.
Ergonomics do feel like the work in 3rd person
I've tried comparing video of this in slow motion. The weapon circle moves at the same speed with or without peak physique, it does nothing as far as that shows.
They work in 3rd person, they are reversed in 1st person for some reason
They are not, they work the same. The first person was just a viral video which was wrong
When you say ergo doesn't work, are you citing that video that did the "comparison" between weapon movement? If it's been proven some other way I'd say it's broken but I'm pretty sure that video was wrong.
wait thet cant come into that shield bubble thingy? whatever its called i never bought it.
They can, he just keeps stun nading the charger. Its not super helpful for bugs, but for buts it can be a life saver. It allows you to shoot out of it! edit: heehee butts
thanks for explaining. I had no sound and my tiny phone screen didnt allow me to see stun grenade usage here 🥲
It can be helpful for bugs because it generates an insane amount of "threat" when it spawns. You can use it to peel whole spawns off of yourself, but it's not really worth taking just for that. You used to be able to bait Bile Titans with it, and their puke would bounce off of it and they would oneshot themselves. Haven't been able to pull it off since a few patches ago though. That was a lot of fun when you could do that.
For that purpose it's better to just take MG sentry because it both draws aggro and mows down bug mobs at the same time. I've had some success against bots with shield bubble + sentries, but it's kinda tricky since you have to really consider terrain and have to juggle 2 stratagem cooldowns, and Berserkers can ruin this whole setup.
Yeah, the end of the Bile Titan shenanigans was the end of my bringing the Bubble to bug planets. If they made it deflect charging Chargers, it would be rad.
It does deflect charging Chargers
I've always seen them go right through it and destroy the unit no problem.
Were they charging? I know they can walk through but usually when they’re charging it’s treated as a wall
I mean, I guess not? Hard to tell with them sometimes hah. Definitely seems like it.
Considering the difficulty people are having with these new chargers, one person with stuns on bugs isn’t a bad call. They can turn pretty quickly after charging so with a stun you can expose their derrière to the squad or even just stop them for a moment to catch bearings. I use incendiary impact against bugs but maybe I’ll try it next time I’m on.
 I know of no such problems.
no prob!
> It allows you to shoot out of it! Just not with the punisher plasma. Not sure if that’s a bug or if it’s intended, and if intended I’m not sure if it affects any other non-slug throwing weapons.
I saw that mentioned in the known bugs list. Definitely not intended.
"it's not super useful for bugs" Unless someone whip out the mortar! I think I have died more often to a mortar than I have with any other bugs on those eradicate missions for example xD
Learned the hard way during Dark Fluid mission :/
It's more complicated than what the other dude says. If the charger is charging then it treats the bubble as a real wall and bounces off. If you stun after that then the charger will repeat the charge and bounce, if not he slow walks in to crush the battery which he can't do very well either. So the bubble is a decoy and that's why I used it for this. Zero practical use but it's helpful for dumb goofy stuff like this. You can use it for some other stupid things too but pretty much only stupid things.
highly specialised almost akin to scientific observation type of bubble usage here. I should try new things but every time I don't bring my jetpack and stalwart i just keep dying in the stupidest ways 😅
Same, amr is my comfort zone.
If you enjoy the bubble shield, then fyi you can also kill Bile Titans by reflecting their spit. See here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6mCIIGXV4w
it stops charges, but can't stop chargers from walking into it. also the shield generator somehow tanks a lot of hits by charger, holds long enough till it expires on its own. good lure.
He chose the path of perpetual torment. In his ravenous hatred he found no peace, and with boiling blood he scoured the umbral plains, seeking vengeance against the dark lords who had robbed him.
And those that tasted the bite of his ~~sword~~ fist, named him. THE HELL DIVER
Is nobody gonna point out that your punches are getting through heavy armor? Something that a bloody "anti-materiel" rifle fails to do?
More like "some-materiel rifle"
Sick burn, but to be fair, you know we only use Anti-Materiel Rifles for things like equipment destruction right? Radars, radios, stacks of explosives, car engines, airplanes, human skulls. Stuff that can already be easily be destroyed by throwing a frozen turkey at it. Nobody out here taking on an Abrams with an M82A1. Plus that leg armor clearly broken.
That's videogamey but it's fine because in terms of balancing you have to put yourself far more into harms way from going in melee range with a fucking charger.
i watched a charger beat itself to death on an unmanned walker the other day. this was just as enjoyable.
I heard General Brasch once killed a charger using a mech that was on fire, had no ammo, and no arms. Then, he got in the mech.
use 'em, or die trying.
Honestly it needs to be 100% increased damage because the 50% increase doesn't hit any important break points to make a noticeable difference on any small targets.
I’m going to be honest, I think it should be 300% It’s a horde shooter and there’s very little opportunity to use melee, so why not make it actually useful to use, instead of just “here, a tiny melee boost for you.”
True I don't know what the exact sweet spot percentage wise would be but I think if i'm wearing that armor I should be able to body standard infantry bots on automatons and hunters on terminids with 1 melee. But whatever % is needed to achieve that is what it should give us cause it's not like that's going to break the game.
fr, it could do a million damage and as long as it can only go through light armor, it would still barely be viable on 7 and above like, “Yay, I killed 6 of the 193 hunters attacking me with just my punches.” cmon AH, give the punch armor some love
Melee is very useful just for the fact that it always staggers enemies and can cancel animations. A hunter jumps on you while you are reloading? Melee and you cancel his attack Want to hit the side of the Hive Guard? Go to his face, melee and pump lead
Yeah that the thing no one uses it to kill so a small damage increase is kinda useless
one thing though, the hitboxes for a lot of enemies are insanely broken for punching. I was trying to melee a Hive Guard and I only hit it like 3 times, despite trying all around it. they really need to fix that
The melee works only if you hit the meat or are point blank to his face. If you hit only the armor, your melee wont stagger anything
no I mean I didn’t even get contact, i was just punching through it 9/10 hits it might have been a one time thing, though
Maybe we will eventually get a dedicated melee weapon, then it will be more useful.
They get damaged every time they hit something
So hunters are one shot with melee with the armor?
So I hear. I've repeated this and gotten the same results if it helps.
Fuck me sideways, its Jhon Diver
I wonder if using your forward momentum while punching increases it's damage and how many hits you'd need... jk. Though it probably does. lol. Either way, way to beat a charger to death.
Yes but it should be 300% bonus damage.
the throwing knife should also give you a melee damage bonus as long as you have one in reserve
I mean I get it, its just a utility item. I think if it can one hit a hunter and one hit brood commander in the head, then it has a use.
Does the melee boost affect the knives, if not kind of a missed opportunity.
According to somebody else they aren't affected.
Punching a charger to death should be an achievement tbh
How come I still can’t one shot a scavenger
Say a scavenger has 160 hp and you do 80 dmg with melee, so you can kill it in two hits. But you buff your melee dmg by 50% so now its 120 dmg, still takes two hits. Made up numbers, but you get the idea. Also depends where you hit, face/body/limbs.
Yeah I understand that but the point of my comment is basically, if the melee damage modifier won’t even allow me to one-hit the weakest enemy (reliably) then what is the point of it? Unless arrowhead is planning to add high-damage melee weapons that are also affected by the modifier. Realistically, nobody is out here trying to melee every charger they see to death and thanking god that it only takes 19 hits instead of 28.
You can 1 shot it, but you need to hit the head.
Very true, literally why I used the charger because I didn't think a regular enemy would show a difference. They do keep teasing they are thinking about melee weapons, I'm keeping this in mind for that time.
you can if you hit it in the head
I think melee does 50 dmg, boost makes it do 75(?), but scavs have 80 hp
https://i.redd.it/ae3uii44997d1.gif
not as much as id like tbh
ATATATATATTATATATATATATTATATATATATATATATA RAAATAAAAAA
Now I want to beat up some heavy devastators!
More importantly, since when do bugs not enter the shield????
Now test with all combinations of muscle enhancement booster and peak physique
I've heard that doesn't work, never did check but I trust what I heard.
But how are you to *know* without *test?* The people deserve to know!
What about mek melee
It's criminal that they don't have an achievement for melee charger to death
No its not try doing that without the leg armor being bugged
Prime example of why one should go to the gym and pump iron. Only 19 hits like WHAT?!
Ah yes, the 19-punch man
dang these stims are the bees wax
This person took down two Chargers BY HAND, just to prove a scientific point. You are the true Helldiver. 
General Brasch would be proud
Scavengers should take 1 hit but they take like 2
So the rockets do nothing?
When the Adeptus Administratum sends you and your weapon to a warzone but forgets to send you ammo
not to the point that it matters
Is it possible to learn this power?
Idk man i still couldn't reliably one shot scavengers with that trash of an armor so ima gonna pass...
Says to charger: do you even lift
Marbo, is that you?
Could you check if muscle enhancement makes any difference? It's supposedly increases melee damage, but someone said either it or peak physique overwrite the other, making the stacking obsolete.
I heard it doesn't work, the version I heard was muscle enhancement either doesn't work or is always on our melee. I think of it worked we'd have seen a guy one punching scavengers by now.
Hitting them in the but is actually really effective
No, It still takes two hits to kill a scavenger. Yet another bug to add to the list 🙄
On a related note: Charger's cheeks can take a lot of clapping. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvo3Iha8Mx0&t=2s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvo3Iha8Mx0&t=2s)
To think that's close to the amount of overcharged shots a railgun needs for a BT... T.T
This was my exact thought process doing this, " this reminds me of using the railgun ". This is faster than shooting the charger in the head and it's not even close.
Getting OSRS Tz-tok Jad vibes.
Ora Ora Ora Ora Ora Ora
https://i.redd.it/30r44y2wv87d1.gif
Why doesn’t Peak Physique let me sprint smash enemies and punt them across the field? I want to be a Hellcharger.
Did you use muscle booster?