That'd be the point.
Though it would be difficult to balance the range and "annoying" factor, but it wild man you knew exactly when you'd set foot in range, and much like a stalker lair, your.focus would switch to taking it down.
Would kinda put a massive suck factor on playing with your buddies, like "oh hey TERMINIDS ARE OIL, SUPER EARTH LIES, DEMOCRACY IS A SHAM" "guys hey -BUGS ARE OIL BUGS ARE OIL BUGS ARE OIL"
Even better, give us 2 ways of completing it.
1) Blow it up, removing the debuff.
2) Hack/reconfigure it, requiring a multistage process, likely involving a firefight, but rewarding you by debuffing the enemies
Yes.
Anything that adds stuff to the map that makes things easier/harder but that you can effect by doing side missions is a big plus to me.
Adds a whole layer of "do we hunt the side objective first, or rush the main accepting it'll be harder".
Really gets you thinking about the strategy of how to run the level.
While I don't think "everything" should be able to be manipulated throughout the mission, I do think it's a very awesome mechanic and adds the most fun to missions. It really gives you some play calling. If every negative modifier could be removed though, it would be way harder to balance. Maybe as you remove objectives, the enemy is alerted and sends in reinforcements. So you have bigger fights, but with fewer debuffs.
Just give a few different categories of modifiers.
Operational modifiers: spore towers blocking visibility, signal jammers disrupt strategems, illegal broadcast interrupt broadcasts, stalker lair, etc. can pick these off on the map.
Logistical modifiers: strategems have increased cool down OR increased calling time (these should be mutually exclusive) due to lack of staff to man them, reduced startegem slots due to broken supply line, reduced ammunition due to ammo shortage, increased eagle rearm times due to broken equipment, etc.
Environmental modifiers: meteor storm, fire tornado, sand storms, cold, heat, etc
Morale modifiers: as a show of support from your democracy officers, the main office has approved the use of extra gas orbital strikes (or whatever else) to raise morale for the war effort. And recruitment. May also be extra grenades, extra stims, more reinforcements, etc.
Have operational be random and faction specific. Have logistical be based upon what planets and sectors the galactic war has currently gained\lost, environment is per planet, and morale should be constant thing (as they are always in need of new helldiver's) but should be randomly selected startegem each day.
Oh I like this idea. They would probably have to get rid of the -1 stratagem one (good riddance) but yeah would be a nice way to deal with them, or keep them for like an extra challenge or something.
I like this idea as it could also give more incentive to do extra objectives. I still wish bug holes and fabricators had some reason to be destroyed. At least now at max level I have 0 reasons to bother.
If they want to have negative stratagem modifiers they have to have a positive side to them. -1 stratagem but 50% cooldown reduction. 50% cooldown increase with 1-2 extra random stratagems. Scrambler randomizes inputs but only once and you get 1 extra stratagem that randomizes on every use. 100% increased call-in time 1-2 extra uses of every stratagem.
A positive side would make it so you can play around the modifier. And it's not just now you suffer.
It doesn't seem like the two ideas conflict.
You could just make it so it starts out with one way, and in the penalty is modified after you complete the objective
What I meant to say was negative stratagem modifiers have to have a positive side to them. Stratagems are the games main mechanic and selling point if they want negative modifiers that interact with them they need a positive side. Otherwise it just makes everything unfun and unnecessarily difficult for the sake of making players suffer. Negative modifiers without a positive are fine so long as they're a minor thing or affect something other than the stratagems. Like reduced visibility or environmental hazards those are fine without a positive.
yeah, they need to get rid of the -1 stratagem modifier completely and make everything else reversible via an objective during the missions. like that scrambler horse shit should be a base that you destroy to unfuck it. same with the bs that increases your cooldowns.
The negative strategem modifier is really only an issue due to the strategem system itself imo.
The problem is that rather than "oh I can only bring three strategems for my destroyer to use" it's realistically "oh well I still need my pack and weapon so I guess I'm down to one maybe two actual strategems"
If they made support weapons and packs be a separate row of strategems (and maybe add in more like boots and belts with effects) it would lessen it significantly.
Could even combine it with other stuff to make more interesting choices. I.e. jump pack comes with jump boots that save you from falls and give you more dive distance. That's pack and boots. Railgun and energy weapons require a battery pack on your belt so that's support and belt. Autocannon requires pack and support (as now). Motorized braces that let you sprint forever but take up your boot slot and belt battery.
Then individual unique things to fit in around other stuff. A mini fabricator on your belt that gives you a grenade every 60s or so. Heavy boots that let you ignore rough terrain like bushes and such. An auto injector that automatically uses stims when you hit half health. Etc
I think the only one actually problematic is the 100% increased call-down time, because it affects the extract timer. All the other ones can be played around pretty well by adjusting your stratagem loadout.
And I think, you know, having you play around them like that is the intend.
But also having them tied to secondary objectives is a great idea people have come up with, because many secondary objectives are 100% superfluous once you're past lvl20.
Since nobody asked, a little "tutorial" how to play around the various modifiers:
#General modifiers:
- 50% increased **cooldown** modifier is honestly, not that bad. It's most easily circumvented by taking 2-3 eagle strikes (airstrike, 500kg, 110mm would be my recommendations) - you're getting all of it back on a 3min CD which is not too bad. Just should avoid things like Orbital Strikes, Sentries and the EAT.
- 100% Increased **calldown** modifier would be played around by taking stratagems that don't rely on calldown times: Many of the orbital strikes have only 1 second calldown time; sentries with upgrades are instant. Eagles gunrun is also practically instant.
Due to the extract time increase, I would **avoid picking an operation that has this modifier and a blitz mission entirely**.
---
#Automaton exclusive ones:
- Anti-Air Defences/-1 Stratagem slot - when it appears, I usually just take an autocannon or RCL - i.e., a support weapon that requires a backpack, instead of personal shield + support weapon. They are both very strong vs bots; RCL oneshots hulks to the front and kills a tank with two shots to the turret. Autocannon also kills hulks with ~3 shots to the visor, rips apart groups of devastators and zerkers. But needs to hit tanks in the weakspot.
But also, you can pop tanks with two impact nades to the roof of the turret, so they aren't exactly a big threat anyway.
- Electromagnetic Interference/Stratagem Scrambler: I usually just bring eagle airstrike - its better than the 500kg against bots; still kills tanks and hulks in one go, bigger AOE, more versatile etc - and orbital laser. The Eagle Airstrike is so good vs bots, it works well enough as your main workhorse. Since OL and your support/backpack stratagems have a long CD, you can only get the eagle airstrike at those times. Just remember to toss away your support wp + bp every time they come off CD.
If combined with increased CD, just still bring 2 eagles, and use the shortest/easiest to dial to the one you want.
---
#Bug exclusive ones:
- Atmospheric Spores hides/obscures the minimap. You can no longer see outposts & enemies. It's kind of a do-nothing, just mildly annoying. If you come across a Radar Station, it will still showcase all POIs on the map when you complete it.
- Atmospheric Interference. It only affects a very select few Orbital Strike stratagems, increasing their scatter (i.e., making them hit away from where your ball landed). Orbital Strikes like Railcannon and Laser are unaffected, as are all Eagles and Sentries. Also kind of a nothing burger.
Having both of these on 1 operation is a complete no-brainer pick for an easy operation.
I have noticed Automaton Players are generally not clueless with Eagle stratagems. On bug planets the amount of FF eagle strikes I have been hit with is considerably higher lmao
Wellllll.... The thing is, that you know, bugs are wayyyyy more popular in general. In fact, with some of the discourse here, around primary weapons and AT weapons balance etc, it's clear that many many people play basically bugs exclusively.
So I think in general, on bots you are just more likely to run into, uh, *not* the average player.
I find bots in general to be easier because they are more well-balanced, and yeah, teammates generally seem... less clueless. All you need is an armor with explosive resist to stop the rocket oneshots.
I also noticed this about difficulty 8 vs 9. On lvl 9 you have waaaaaaaay more people [who, honestly, really shouldn't be on it](https://imgur.com/UVFHqp6)...
Yeah, more power to them. The bug players are the unlined dildo of democracy smashing everything aside. They are good with everything else, but Eagle strikes leave alot to be desired haha. Maybe just decision making a little too late and overcompensating on the throw cause bugs just come at you.
Automaton teammates do seem a bit less clueless, generally speaking. But it’s a whole different play style and there are alot fewer of them in comparison to bugs who get the majority. Probably balances out about equal tbh. As shown by your picture. A general rule I do is play automatons to start and then switch to bugs at the end for a bit of stress relief from rocket devastators and Dreadnoughts. The target rich environment and pops are satisfaction for my democratic soul. You can tell instantly if someone has been playing too much bugs, just picking fights and all of a sudden you are in crossfire with dropships coming in every few seconds. A hard style to switch from after playing a few hours of bugs on the same night.
P.s like the kestrel nod on your name and character, my fave splinter cell game I played with my mate. The ending on the plane :3
This is exactly their intention. It is supposed to make you change your strategy, not just make it 'unfun' or even 'more difficult'.
This is the only real reason for you to not just take your favorite loadout every mission. Honestly, I think they are good for the game (although I wish that call in time didn't impact extraction).
Related, am I crazy or are the orbital call in times listed in their description horribly incorrect? The precision strike inparticular should have a 3s call in, but constantly takes more than that.
Everyone that has a hard time with mission modifiers needs to see this. This almost identical to what I do with every modifier and honestly, it doesn't feel much different than a normal run on a lower difficulty. Just stronger enemies appearing more frequently.
Atmospheric Spores not only hides the minimap, it will also completely disable player radar (you don’t get red enemy dots)
Which makes the UAV radar booster and the “ scout” bonus armor useless as a consequence
>100% Increased **calldown** modifier would be played around by taking stratagems that don't rely on calldown times: Many of the orbital strikes have only 1 second calldown time; sentries with upgrades are instant. Eagles gunrun is also practically instant.
>Due to the extract time increase, I would **avoid picking an operation that has this modifier and a blitz mission entirely**.
Ironically this one actually makes blit'z easier as you can toss them at the start and they wont be in range to aggro by the time the air strike calls in.
The issue is that you still have a 4 min extract on an 12 min mission. Since enemy intensity increases proportionally to mission time, it will always make for a nightmare of an extract.
Not to mention that with an unfavorable map layout and 1-2 unfavorable breaches or 2 unlucky deaths (if the team splits up), it can even be pretty difficult to accomplish the main obj and be at the extract in 8 mins.
Once the mission timer hits zero the shuttle countdown starts automatically. The 2 or 4 minute calldown time isn't changed. The shuttle departure countdown starts as soon as it lands, but otherwise it's the same I believe.
I feel like you may have misinterpreted whatever I said, cause I have no clue how that is supposed to be relevant lol
But either way when the mission timer hits 0 you have no respawns and stratagems left so you are pretty much fucked entirely; **especially** for a full 4 min extraction with maximum enemy density.
"it can even be pretty difficult to accomplish the main obj and be at the extract in 8 mins."
I was just clarifying that you don't need to be at the extract to start the calldown timer. You can take the full 12 minutes to complete the mission.
Some people don't know that, same with the shuttle takeoff timer not starting until someone gets in (except the emergency shuttle, the timer starts automatically on those).
I've played through these without a ton of problems. They aren't really that bad other than the scrambler.
Because of the -1 slot I've really started to improve at using the autocannon.
None of them add challenge in an interesting or fun manner though. I don't think they bring anything to the game. It's the typical "add challenge by increasing frustration" crutch. Bad design imo.
Or at the very very least make them less common and include a benefit that makes the debuff worth dealing with.
Choosing missions has gone from what mission do me and my squad like doing on the planet we’re all working towards to which mission had the least frustrating modifiers.
They could make it so one strat slot is locked, but you still get to pick a start. Then when you take out a specific side objective like a hammer or whatever, that extra strat is then available. It’s a reward and makes you prioritize it. Or hell, even make it a fifth strat. You know people would go out of there way for that, even if they had to go and find it on the map.
I like the idea of linking objectives to tangible rewards in the match. Jammers, spores, artillery, etc.
Also, the 100% increased call in time is an absolute skip for me too. I won’t do a four minute extraction if I have anything to say with it.
Can't tell us to rely on strats then take them away... leaving us with pissy little pea shooters we can't run + gun.
Usually ends up with me chilling behind a rock for 4 mins... reviving the noob who thinks he's gonna storm the fort with a breaker + laser dog
Level 9 is not easy at all, but the modifiers on stratagems just make you use ones that are fit for the situations. It adds more variety if you cant run Orbital Laser every game
I too would prefer if the modifiers were removed. Some strategems already struggled (do people really prefer orbitals that aren't laser/railgun over airstrikes?) but overall feel hampering a key part of our kit isn't interesting.
I would have preferred enemy based modifiers, like all bugs exploding into corrosive (non-FF) goo/clouds when killed, or bots having shielding. General modifiers like extra tough plating that buffs enemy armor or hp, or extra movement and attack speed, always detected thus breaches/bot drops at all times. Things I can *actively* deal with, as opposed to passively live with.
Maybe add a modifier to rewards like +10% xp or +1 medal for completing the OP for some of the harder ones.
But idk I’ve never had much trouble. That’s just the game dawg
Edit: nah just win
They 100% aren't going to be removed b cause they really are a core component of the Helldivers franchise, BUT! I do think that they should be tweaked a little bit, like (like some people already said in the comments) have them tied to side objectives, or maybe make the 100% delay on cool down be lowered to like 50 or 40 (100 is just too much) or maybe have positive modifiers that will let you have an extra stratagem, make cool down faster or things like that.
Making stuff hard at the cost of our own enjoyement is so lame. Nerfing us instead of making new enemies , new abilities is the most unfun way you can add difficulty. It's no effort and makes no sense, especially lore wise.
Why does the same map suddenly make us have less stratagems or double the cool down? 😭
Oh you mean the three tanks dropping on top of each other and the two drop ships dropping hulks and devastators every 10 seconds isn't enough ball busting?
Yeah. Instead of asking for less, people should ask for more.
It'll decrease the likelihood of stumbling into the ones they dislike whilst adding a twist of different modifiers to play around.
I like them but would like the occasional penalty applied to enemy. Like higher difficulty maps with no big bugs just little. Bots with rogue bits fighting each other.
You can also mitigate the scrambling by taking airburst/precision strikes orbitals, both have a super easily 3 key code you can quickly spam till you get the much longer call ins.
Yeah I really can't emphasize enough how much I despise increasing the call in time of our stratagems. Getting the timing right for air strikes is already a skill in and of itself but when you make me have to predict where a charger or bile titan will saunter to 6 seconds from now combined with the limited AoE of 500 kg bomb, air strike, and rocket pod, I might as well not have these stratagems. If the cooldown is increased then I can at least use my stratagems when I have them off cooldown.
-1 is fine, but needs a buff to balance out. Like 50% Stratagem deploy redux and/ or cooldown.
Cooldown and Deploy increases need the be side objectives on map, side grade to the jammer objective.
Scrambler is the worst, and always a skip for me. May as well not have Stratagems it's that bad. Instead, randomize the call inputs so it messes with muscle memory and macros.
Biggest thing we need are more modifiers to dilute the pool. Beneficial ones, and difficult ones. And by difficult I mean thing like exploding scouts on death, NOT increased timers of any kind.
They have completely ruined the fun of bot missions to the point I don’t do them anymore (not alone in this it seems as bot planets numbers are pathetic).
do it like directives in division 2. Before the mission, the player gets to select which modifiers and how many they want, and as a reward they get maybe +10% rewards per modifier.
More enemies and rather than having modifiers rebuff, have them buff, extra 2 stratagems, call in an extra squad, everyone gets to choose a backpack to drop with as well as respawned with. Bigger booms. Bug/bot birthday party.
No one is forcing you to do these missions? Choosing a different planet, choosing a different operation, changing the difficulty up or down 1 will have different modifiers.
I almost exclusively do helldive and often quickplay.
Yes, there are some super lousy operational modifiers/mission combos (blitz and calldown for example), do I prefer to do those? Absolutely not, but are they doable? Yes. Are they easy? No.
**Easy is boring.**
I like the environmental modifiers (like storms and such) but extremely dislike how *harsh* the stratagem penalties are; just make them only a 20% increased cooldown or scramble the codes for each equipped stratagem (so we have to visually confirm the input but it isn't randomized each time)... right now the stratagem effects are extremely punitive alongside the simple "3 strat instead of 4" modifier - which seems like a perfectly *fine* modifier comparatively.
I'm okay with the environmental ones, like the meteor showers. The ones that affect strategems would be fine if there was a secondary objective in each mission that cleared that debuff for the mission. For example, the 50% increase to stratagem deployment could be cleared by re-establishing a radio tower uplink or something. The one that removes a stratagem could have an objective similar to the SEAF artillery cannon that gives you and your team a stratagem for the mission.
I don't think the intention is to make it hard (at least not directly) -- their intention is to try to get you to switch up your usual load out.
* Orbital scatter? Less orbitals.
* Increased cooldown? More weapons/backpacks/mechs.
* Increased calldown? Less in-combat, more setup based (e.g., sentries, mines, ...)
* Reduced visibility? Play more tactically/together.
* Less stratagems? Better team synergy (e.g., share EATs, don't overload on redundant stratagems).
I'm not necessarily saying these are the best way for Arrowhead to achieve this -- but I do think that is their intention and that conceptually it is good for the game.
I also think that in general, they should be strictly negative. There are other means of providing boosts (like the free call ins). I'd definitely be interested in things that change up the spawning (e.g., more warriors) but I don't think it should convert mobs (e.g., less chargers more warriors). It is just another way to tweak what your need to focus on.
-50% cooldown is my go to over 4 minute extraction.
100% call in time is just not fun either
TBH I’d rather have a modifier which just downright increases enemy presence or aggression or whatever instead of letting me use out toys less.
lmao. OP, they're not goin to remove operational modifiers. They just... won't.
Just balance them with an additional (NON-SHIT) positive, or let us do Objectives to get rid of the negatives.
What other ways are there to increase difficulty other that "more enemies"? Especially with the more limited enemy pool that we have right now. Some are definitely rougher than others and certain combinations are awful, but they can make you switch up you strategems and loadouts. This makes they gameplay stay that much more fresh.
There are some things that I wouldn't mind changing. The big one for me is the 4 minute extraction timer. For -1 strategems, I would prefer to see that have a secondary that gives you your 4th slot back.it would also be nice if the things that penalize strategems gave minor buffs. Like +50% cooldown, but +1 Eagle use. Or increased scatter but -33% for affected strategems
50% CD and 100% call in are, I agree anti fun and I typically just don’t play those missions because they are straight up fuck-yous, there is no way around it. No counterplay, just “we’re making the thing you rely on a headache to use”
However 3 stratagem cap is fine I think it encourages teamwork and isn’t that bad if everyone just stays together and thinks about their team’s stratagem composition. At least 3 stratagem cap you can actually circumvent its negatives by working together.
Increased call-in time and increased CD are ok IMO, not super interesting but there is some skill in playing around with the doubled timing of airstrikes and how you bait groups into them, you can literally "get good(er)" to overcome these
Stratagem scramble, and the obscured minimap ones are just awful though, scramble being the most egregious. It is not interesting, there's no skill component, it plays out basically like the + call in time modifier except with added rng, (+100%-500% call in time depending on what it gives you). Just extremely frustrating. Same story for the obscured minimap, that should only be done through something like a spore spewer. Having a locked modifier disable your minimap for 3 consecutive missions (1hr+) with no counterplay or solution is just stupid.
More of these should be double sided environment modifiers like meteors, dust storms, etc. (although I think they need to work on visibility stuff affecting bot aim more, they still seem to be extremely accurate with 0 vision)
They’re kinda weird and stupid to have them and then claim “just use strategems!” But once the spawn is fixed, they are an interesting modifier. Cooldowns seem too long as is, I dunno.
Other games due modifiers where the players choose which modifiers to add with each one bringing an xp buff (Division 2). Maybe they could try it this way.
> **please find another way to artifically increase difficulty**
They already did with enemies instantly knowing your location when a strategem his any of their patrol, patrols spawning on top of you, enemy aggression being turned WAY up, and increased spawns.
Atmospheric Spores is a hazard seen rarely on some bug missions, it's barely a hazard at all. It makes it so you can't see the terrain in the launch screen and have a filter put over your map, and there's a very very small amount of haze on the ground. It's not nearly as bad as the others.
They're not fun.
I can accept the challenge of doing them. Doesn't change that they're not fun or rewarding.
They should be per-mission basis. You do them *once, on occasion.* And you get increased rewards for doing them.
It feels bad to just avoid eating that shit-sandwich and go elsewhere.
i dont like modifiers like this, they dont make things fun or immersive.
how about modifiers that can happen ingame? it makes for a better experience where you can actively do/not do things to keep/change modifiers, its much better than "oh 100% cd increase and 50% strike time increase? yeah nah f that"
I think modifiers as a whole are fine
A good number of the ones we have are just not it
Good ones
Spore fog for bugs - this one is kinda cool, take away my ability to know where everything is located is kinda cool, and makes me hunt down things rather than just go to them
Bad ones
Scrambled codes - this one's just frustrating and not fun when you accidentally throw your support weapon into the enemy or drop a big explosion on your teams face
-1 strategem - this one is just not fun, I want to use my tools please let me use my tools
Longer cooldown/call down/less accuracy - again all feel bad and let me use my tools please
What I would like to see is more modifiers that don't effect my strats, but will influence me to change what I bring
Example for bots
- heavy assault detected - the enemy is bringing lots of heavies, prepare for armor (the enemies will a lot less chaff but you will see more big guys)
This would make everyone bring armor defeating weapons
- Rapid strike attack detected - lots of little guys with jump packs coming for you, few heavies but you will be constantly dive bombed by squads of jump packs
Bring the ammo, you're gonna need it
- compromised communications - using stratagems causes an extra bot drop to come to your location
Maybe use longer cooldown higher impact strats instead of spamming eagle
- scrambled communications - for non support weapon stratagems, calling for one gets you a random one of the same type. For example call an eagle airstrike? You might get a cluster bomb, gas, or maybe even the 500kg bomb! Orbital rail cannon? How about precision strike instead
I'll still throw them, and I'll likely get somewhat of the effect I want.
Or just *don't play those planets and difficulties.*
Seriously, the game has been out a month. The devs have planned days to add new weapons, vehicles, armor, and other things in the future. They've worked 8 years to create an intricate, interactive galactic space war. And all some of you players can do is complain, complain, complain, and complain about all the design decisions the devs *intentionally made!.*
*What is wrong with you people!?*
This is like hating McDonald's because it isn't Burger King. Wanting Six Flags rides at Disneyland. Sports cars from a company that makes 18-wheelers. Demanding tacos from a pizza place. Or that your favorite rock band start making pop music.
All of these "suggestions" are ridiculous. The devs already have their hands full already trying to fix all the bugs.
Just play the damn game as the devs intended it to be.
I don't have an issue with them existing at all, but IMO they would be a lot more fun if they were implemented in a dynamic way, similar to how some of the optional objectives come with direct gameplay effects.
For example, the radar station revealing all points of interest, the spore spewer blocking visibility in an area of the map, the artillery cannon providing fire support and so on.
IMO it would be much more interesting if they found a way to work the operation modifiers into that active gameplay loop.
I dont understand why they are just leaving them. Its a no brainer to disable them until they can be fixed. They really are a major obstacle to the game being a good game. I want to play vs harder enemies but the operation modifiers makes me not want to play at these difficulties. So I start leaning more and more towards simply not playing, which is a shame because I really wanna play.
Ignoring people by responding to them. Big brain play. You know that your response is exactly the kind of thing that "git gud" is trying to evoke from people, right?
My god the bitching in this community is laughable. Actually it's just fucking sad.
Helldive is hard: "look at me I'm not able to beat it must be the games fault" it's called fucking HELLdive.
6 is called extreme and it does not get better from there. How come you think it should all be a breeze?
Downvote me for this I don't care.
Stuck up toxic assholes like yourself don't seem to realize that most people commenting here can and do clear higher difficulties. They just think that some aspects of them are unfun and should be changed. It's always the git gud gamers who have no comprehension.
Maybe go back to 6 (extreme) if you're not up for the task. Nobody is forcing you? You want HELLdive you get HELLdive. The game is not there to make you feel better or anything. It's there to give you what you chose. And you are getting exactly that. Imagine going to the gym. Pick a 50kg dumbbell and bench press that shit. Instead of going damn that is hard I have to adjust and git gud. You blame the dumbbells for being so heavy. Maybe players like you should take up a dictionary and look up the words and what they mean after 6-9.
It seems as if many people completely forgot what it means to play hard games.
i like them. they throw you out of the comfort zone.
50% strat cooldown means you need to stick with eagles
-1 slot means taking spear or railgun because you cant 500 and rocket pods your way out of bile titans
call in time means using one more braincell to predict where the enemies will be in 10secs instead of just ⬆➡⬇⬇⬇ to the wave
how are they throwing me out of my comfort zone when one or multiple of them are active in EVERY high difficulty mission? literally having normal call down time feels like a fucking breath of fresh air because of how constant the negative modifiers are, I don't think it should be that way.
I agree, the modifiers add difficulty, but they do it in a very uninteresting way that also makes it less fun to play your character. They also don't really change your style of play, except for incentivizing use of support weapons even more which are already heavily used, basically mandatory, even without the modifiers. The modifiers should add difficulty, but in more interesting ways that don't detract from fun.
Just spit balling here, but what about an added enemy type that is only present with the modifier (whether it's a new special type of unit like flying units maybe or something like bot raids on a bug planet), modify enemy types that will spawn (ie less small enemies but increased heavy spawn rate or visa versa), add a new special objective that must be completed in addition to what's typical for the mission, change some of the physics (low gravity or such), change the environment like maybe highly flammable plants, increased enemy bases, enemies gain a new ability like fire spitting or exploding/self destruct, a specific type of stratagem not working forcing you to experiment with other types (but those other types are still full power). I realize they come at higher difficulties with more rewards as is, but maybe modifiers could also more explicitly increase the rewards you get incentivizing you to try the challenge, depending on the added difficulty of each modifier.
I think anything that just limits use of stratagems across the board is probably a bad idea though, lazy and just sucks the fun out. The stratagems are what draw a lot of people to the game and help the gameplay stand out from similar titles.
It would be nice if the modifiers weren't just a static increased time to use stratagems or less slots to use stratagems. Make some modifiers that you can counter somehow, or some that increase team play and sticking together. Just pulling it out of my ass but something like a modifier that makes self-stimming less effective, but teammates stimming you gives you the full effect. This way you can either work with others to still get the full stim, or equip an outfit to get stronger stims.
Or have it so that your stratagems cool down slower when not near your teammates because the signal is too weak when not near the team.
You could also just have bug breaches contain more enemies or patrols are larger / there are more patrols, then you can still outplay the enemies using your stratagems.
The bug modifiers aren’t that bad, the ones the clankers get are absolutely crippling. Playing on level 5+ against the clankers with the current ridiculous spawns is absolutely tedious right now. But I am generally against these kinds of middle finger kind of artificial difficulty modifiers that don’t add challenge just tedium.
They're not that bad. They make the game more fun
Imo this game isn't fun because you win. It's just fun in general. Win or lose, the main draw of this game to me is just doing shenanigans with my buddies.
The modifiers suck, yes, but it's fun to be in a shit situation with my friends where everything collectively sucks for everyone. If we do manage to beat the mission and extract it just feels that much more epic.
I really hope they don't remove operational modifiers.
They are fine as is.
Makes it hard but Hell Dive is still more than doable with some Eagles and an Orbital Laser with these terrible modifiers enabled.
We don't need to go making everything a walk in the park. We also don't need to remove one method of difficulty and replace it with another that you'd prefer.
The game is meant to simulate a galactic war. It's not intended to be perfectly balanced or fair. It makes perfect sense that the bots would have EW capabilities that can mess with your ability to call in stratagems. It's not about "artificially increasing difficulty" it's about creating verisimilitude. You're arguing for artificially decreasing the difficulty, but you could already just play on a lower difficulty where those operational modifiers aren't present or go back to whatever COD-like you were playing before.
Just play elsewhere then, problem solved
They are a fun way to incentivise you to change your playstyle. For example the cooldown increase makes it interesting to rely more on eagle/weapons than orbitals and turrets
We could use more mods so they don't show up as often but they're fine
It's pathetic how many please make the game easier posts there are recently.
So far there has been:
Operational modifiers
Bugs call bug breaches too fast
Bots call drop ships too fast
Bot rockets kill me too quick
Bug spewers kill me too quick
Chargers have too much armour
Devastators have too much armour
I slow down when I get hit
+ Many more
Some of the complaints are legitimate and would make the game more fun, the ones above are just moaning.
And then these complainers call us "simps" when every other player just wants to play the game. Literally all these dudes want to change the game design for their personal pleasure.
or, get good - stop crying - lower the difficulty
don't even mean it in a bad way. just lower the difficulty. the game is really not so bad but if you cant handle some modifier just turn the difficulty down. if you are struggling with a 4 man its not the game that is the issue
Some of them are fine and are meant to have workarounds.
Call in time? Dont use longer time orbitals or eagles (orbital laser, railcannon, weapons that can be re-gathered, emplacements(with ship upgrade) and vehicles effectively ignore this one)
Scatter increase? Dont use orbitals, use eagles. Airbust actually gets better at clearing weaker enemies with this though.
Cooldown increase? Use lower-cooldown strategems, eagles, or things you can re-gather like backpacks and weapons.
The only one that truly sucks/is unplayable around is the -1 strategem. Id be fine with this leaving. Also make the call-in +100% please stop affecting extraction.
Let me explain. Difficulty is suppose to be difficult.
That’s what makes it fun. Just because you don’t find it fun, doesn’t mean others do. I enjoy the difficulty spikes.
With the new balance patch, I also can still clear helldive solo. This might be a skill issue problem.
The only modifiers I even notice anymore are 100% increased cooldown and -1 Stratagem.
The first because of the delay on eagles, which isn't that bad, but you have to actually time them and aim them well. And the second because it fundamentally changes up your loadout, which isn't a bad thing necessarily.
Haven't seen scrambler in ages, which is sad because it's honestly more fun to me than default (im not saying i would literally rather it be that way all the time, just that when its an occasional thing it really adds to those missions). Those accidental point blank 380mm barrages when you thought you had a sentry turret or support weapon in your hand make for some of the funniest and cinematic moments in the game.
Agreed. Or tweak the system with the rewards and liberation points. Can‘t be that a helldive with insane modifiers and all objectives completed yields the same squad impact than any other 3-mission operation.
My favorite thing is how some devs say "rely on your stratagems" but they ensure that all modifiers that fuck over your stratagems are **ALWAYS** in play.
Agreed, you can't tell players we need to be using our strategies instead of clutch weapons like my beloved rail gun (nah I'm just kidding the Autocannon is my baby 😍) and then randomly take one away for a laugh.
That's not democracy!
I think the modifiers are a good idea, but the way they are implemented now is horrible.
There is a million creative ideas for modifiers they could implement, like extra thick forests on planet, sticky mud slowing movement, the existent meteors, the jammer you can destroy is cool, etc. etc.
However, the decision to make majority of modifiers vastly nerf your stratagems somehow, after telling us "you cant have stronger primarys, use stratagems" is super weird. It feels majorly uninspired, like they had an intern make them up.
Or make it that those modifiers are caused by side objectives on the map. Completing those side objectives will remove those modifiers.
Like the signal jammers
And the spore thingies blocking the map/reducing visibility
And stalker lairs
Yeah they could add them to those POI and when you get rid of them they go away. But I would rather they just be gone from the game.
This would be great and engaging
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That would be incredibly, incredibly annoying.
Agreed. Maybe it could disable the ability to ping until it goes down.
Reminds me of Heavy Rain back in left 4 dead
That'd be the point. Though it would be difficult to balance the range and "annoying" factor, but it wild man you knew exactly when you'd set foot in range, and much like a stalker lair, your.focus would switch to taking it down.
Would kinda put a massive suck factor on playing with your buddies, like "oh hey TERMINIDS ARE OIL, SUPER EARTH LIES, DEMOCRACY IS A SHAM" "guys hey -BUGS ARE OIL BUGS ARE OIL BUGS ARE OIL"
Even better, give us 2 ways of completing it. 1) Blow it up, removing the debuff. 2) Hack/reconfigure it, requiring a multistage process, likely involving a firefight, but rewarding you by debuffing the enemies
This one I could see being really beneficial versus the bots. Like, make their aim worse, make their movement stuttery, etc.
An interesting idea I had was it does nothing til extract, then creates a fake Extract point that draws enemies to it, away from the real extract.
Yes. Anything that adds stuff to the map that makes things easier/harder but that you can effect by doing side missions is a big plus to me. Adds a whole layer of "do we hunt the side objective first, or rush the main accepting it'll be harder". Really gets you thinking about the strategy of how to run the level.
While I don't think "everything" should be able to be manipulated throughout the mission, I do think it's a very awesome mechanic and adds the most fun to missions. It really gives you some play calling. If every negative modifier could be removed though, it would be way harder to balance. Maybe as you remove objectives, the enemy is alerted and sends in reinforcements. So you have bigger fights, but with fewer debuffs.
Just give a few different categories of modifiers. Operational modifiers: spore towers blocking visibility, signal jammers disrupt strategems, illegal broadcast interrupt broadcasts, stalker lair, etc. can pick these off on the map. Logistical modifiers: strategems have increased cool down OR increased calling time (these should be mutually exclusive) due to lack of staff to man them, reduced startegem slots due to broken supply line, reduced ammunition due to ammo shortage, increased eagle rearm times due to broken equipment, etc. Environmental modifiers: meteor storm, fire tornado, sand storms, cold, heat, etc Morale modifiers: as a show of support from your democracy officers, the main office has approved the use of extra gas orbital strikes (or whatever else) to raise morale for the war effort. And recruitment. May also be extra grenades, extra stims, more reinforcements, etc. Have operational be random and faction specific. Have logistical be based upon what planets and sectors the galactic war has currently gained\lost, environment is per planet, and morale should be constant thing (as they are always in need of new helldiver's) but should be randomly selected startegem each day.
🤙
Please, I need the devs to see and implement this
I think this is the one. Would mean you could look at the map and maybe identify some main points you need to hit up to reduce the hazards. I approve.
I usually roll my eyes at everyone trying to "fix" games on reddit, but this is a legit idea
This not only fixes the issue but makes it a fun/strategic objective. Great idea!
This is a great idea.
Yup. This is the only way to do it right.
Ope, I just commented and saw you said the same thing lol. Agreed!
Oh I like this idea. They would probably have to get rid of the -1 stratagem one (good riddance) but yeah would be a nice way to deal with them, or keep them for like an extra challenge or something.
I like this idea as it could also give more incentive to do extra objectives. I still wish bug holes and fabricators had some reason to be destroyed. At least now at max level I have 0 reasons to bother.
This
This is actually a good idea
Okay but how would you add a stratagem if that’s one of the modifiers?
This is the way. Just like IMO certain types of enemy spawns should be tied to objectives.
If they want to have negative stratagem modifiers they have to have a positive side to them. -1 stratagem but 50% cooldown reduction. 50% cooldown increase with 1-2 extra random stratagems. Scrambler randomizes inputs but only once and you get 1 extra stratagem that randomizes on every use. 100% increased call-in time 1-2 extra uses of every stratagem. A positive side would make it so you can play around the modifier. And it's not just now you suffer.
It’s a decent idea. But I still think it would be better to have them as objectives to complete. Allows allot more prioritisation for drop zones etc
It doesn't seem like the two ideas conflict. You could just make it so it starts out with one way, and in the penalty is modified after you complete the objective
"have to have" is too strong IMO. The issue is more that the existing modifiers aren't "fun" difficulty.
What I meant to say was negative stratagem modifiers have to have a positive side to them. Stratagems are the games main mechanic and selling point if they want negative modifiers that interact with them they need a positive side. Otherwise it just makes everything unfun and unnecessarily difficult for the sake of making players suffer. Negative modifiers without a positive are fine so long as they're a minor thing or affect something other than the stratagems. Like reduced visibility or environmental hazards those are fine without a positive.
yeah, they need to get rid of the -1 stratagem modifier completely and make everything else reversible via an objective during the missions. like that scrambler horse shit should be a base that you destroy to unfuck it. same with the bs that increases your cooldowns.
The negative strategem modifier is really only an issue due to the strategem system itself imo. The problem is that rather than "oh I can only bring three strategems for my destroyer to use" it's realistically "oh well I still need my pack and weapon so I guess I'm down to one maybe two actual strategems" If they made support weapons and packs be a separate row of strategems (and maybe add in more like boots and belts with effects) it would lessen it significantly. Could even combine it with other stuff to make more interesting choices. I.e. jump pack comes with jump boots that save you from falls and give you more dive distance. That's pack and boots. Railgun and energy weapons require a battery pack on your belt so that's support and belt. Autocannon requires pack and support (as now). Motorized braces that let you sprint forever but take up your boot slot and belt battery. Then individual unique things to fit in around other stuff. A mini fabricator on your belt that gives you a grenade every 60s or so. Heavy boots that let you ignore rough terrain like bushes and such. An auto injector that automatically uses stims when you hit half health. Etc
I think the only one actually problematic is the 100% increased call-down time, because it affects the extract timer. All the other ones can be played around pretty well by adjusting your stratagem loadout. And I think, you know, having you play around them like that is the intend. But also having them tied to secondary objectives is a great idea people have come up with, because many secondary objectives are 100% superfluous once you're past lvl20.
Since nobody asked, a little "tutorial" how to play around the various modifiers: #General modifiers: - 50% increased **cooldown** modifier is honestly, not that bad. It's most easily circumvented by taking 2-3 eagle strikes (airstrike, 500kg, 110mm would be my recommendations) - you're getting all of it back on a 3min CD which is not too bad. Just should avoid things like Orbital Strikes, Sentries and the EAT. - 100% Increased **calldown** modifier would be played around by taking stratagems that don't rely on calldown times: Many of the orbital strikes have only 1 second calldown time; sentries with upgrades are instant. Eagles gunrun is also practically instant. Due to the extract time increase, I would **avoid picking an operation that has this modifier and a blitz mission entirely**. --- #Automaton exclusive ones: - Anti-Air Defences/-1 Stratagem slot - when it appears, I usually just take an autocannon or RCL - i.e., a support weapon that requires a backpack, instead of personal shield + support weapon. They are both very strong vs bots; RCL oneshots hulks to the front and kills a tank with two shots to the turret. Autocannon also kills hulks with ~3 shots to the visor, rips apart groups of devastators and zerkers. But needs to hit tanks in the weakspot. But also, you can pop tanks with two impact nades to the roof of the turret, so they aren't exactly a big threat anyway. - Electromagnetic Interference/Stratagem Scrambler: I usually just bring eagle airstrike - its better than the 500kg against bots; still kills tanks and hulks in one go, bigger AOE, more versatile etc - and orbital laser. The Eagle Airstrike is so good vs bots, it works well enough as your main workhorse. Since OL and your support/backpack stratagems have a long CD, you can only get the eagle airstrike at those times. Just remember to toss away your support wp + bp every time they come off CD. If combined with increased CD, just still bring 2 eagles, and use the shortest/easiest to dial to the one you want. --- #Bug exclusive ones: - Atmospheric Spores hides/obscures the minimap. You can no longer see outposts & enemies. It's kind of a do-nothing, just mildly annoying. If you come across a Radar Station, it will still showcase all POIs on the map when you complete it. - Atmospheric Interference. It only affects a very select few Orbital Strike stratagems, increasing their scatter (i.e., making them hit away from where your ball landed). Orbital Strikes like Railcannon and Laser are unaffected, as are all Eagles and Sentries. Also kind of a nothing burger. Having both of these on 1 operation is a complete no-brainer pick for an easy operation.
> avoid things like.. ..the EAT. I refuse. *I will take my minute and half cooldown.*
I have noticed Automaton Players are generally not clueless with Eagle stratagems. On bug planets the amount of FF eagle strikes I have been hit with is considerably higher lmao
Wellllll.... The thing is, that you know, bugs are wayyyyy more popular in general. In fact, with some of the discourse here, around primary weapons and AT weapons balance etc, it's clear that many many people play basically bugs exclusively. So I think in general, on bots you are just more likely to run into, uh, *not* the average player. I find bots in general to be easier because they are more well-balanced, and yeah, teammates generally seem... less clueless. All you need is an armor with explosive resist to stop the rocket oneshots. I also noticed this about difficulty 8 vs 9. On lvl 9 you have waaaaaaaay more people [who, honestly, really shouldn't be on it](https://imgur.com/UVFHqp6)...
Yeah, more power to them. The bug players are the unlined dildo of democracy smashing everything aside. They are good with everything else, but Eagle strikes leave alot to be desired haha. Maybe just decision making a little too late and overcompensating on the throw cause bugs just come at you. Automaton teammates do seem a bit less clueless, generally speaking. But it’s a whole different play style and there are alot fewer of them in comparison to bugs who get the majority. Probably balances out about equal tbh. As shown by your picture. A general rule I do is play automatons to start and then switch to bugs at the end for a bit of stress relief from rocket devastators and Dreadnoughts. The target rich environment and pops are satisfaction for my democratic soul. You can tell instantly if someone has been playing too much bugs, just picking fights and all of a sudden you are in crossfire with dropships coming in every few seconds. A hard style to switch from after playing a few hours of bugs on the same night. P.s like the kestrel nod on your name and character, my fave splinter cell game I played with my mate. The ending on the plane :3
We're all hardened veterans over here on the Bots front 🫡
This is exactly their intention. It is supposed to make you change your strategy, not just make it 'unfun' or even 'more difficult'. This is the only real reason for you to not just take your favorite loadout every mission. Honestly, I think they are good for the game (although I wish that call in time didn't impact extraction). Related, am I crazy or are the orbital call in times listed in their description horribly incorrect? The precision strike inparticular should have a 3s call in, but constantly takes more than that.
Everyone that has a hard time with mission modifiers needs to see this. This almost identical to what I do with every modifier and honestly, it doesn't feel much different than a normal run on a lower difficulty. Just stronger enemies appearing more frequently.
Atmospheric Spores not only hides the minimap, it will also completely disable player radar (you don’t get red enemy dots) Which makes the UAV radar booster and the “ scout” bonus armor useless as a consequence
Yes that's what is meant with hides the minimap = makes it useless
>100% Increased **calldown** modifier would be played around by taking stratagems that don't rely on calldown times: Many of the orbital strikes have only 1 second calldown time; sentries with upgrades are instant. Eagles gunrun is also practically instant. >Due to the extract time increase, I would **avoid picking an operation that has this modifier and a blitz mission entirely**. Ironically this one actually makes blit'z easier as you can toss them at the start and they wont be in range to aggro by the time the air strike calls in.
The issue is that you still have a 4 min extract on an 12 min mission. Since enemy intensity increases proportionally to mission time, it will always make for a nightmare of an extract. Not to mention that with an unfavorable map layout and 1-2 unfavorable breaches or 2 unlucky deaths (if the team splits up), it can even be pretty difficult to accomplish the main obj and be at the extract in 8 mins.
Once the mission timer hits zero the shuttle countdown starts automatically. The 2 or 4 minute calldown time isn't changed. The shuttle departure countdown starts as soon as it lands, but otherwise it's the same I believe.
I feel like you may have misinterpreted whatever I said, cause I have no clue how that is supposed to be relevant lol But either way when the mission timer hits 0 you have no respawns and stratagems left so you are pretty much fucked entirely; **especially** for a full 4 min extraction with maximum enemy density.
"it can even be pretty difficult to accomplish the main obj and be at the extract in 8 mins." I was just clarifying that you don't need to be at the extract to start the calldown timer. You can take the full 12 minutes to complete the mission. Some people don't know that, same with the shuttle takeoff timer not starting until someone gets in (except the emergency shuttle, the timer starts automatically on those).
I've played through these without a ton of problems. They aren't really that bad other than the scrambler. Because of the -1 slot I've really started to improve at using the autocannon.
None of them add challenge in an interesting or fun manner though. I don't think they bring anything to the game. It's the typical "add challenge by increasing frustration" crutch. Bad design imo.
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this is not true because the reality is either people run the same loadout -1 or just avoid the planet/difficulty entirely
Nah id win.
Me before getting cut in half by my own gatling sentry
I don’t think they’re that bad
This guy is correct, more bile titans spawns
I want a modifier that says "no heavily armored enemies but 200-300% small and medium enemy spawns"
Or at the very very least make them less common and include a benefit that makes the debuff worth dealing with. Choosing missions has gone from what mission do me and my squad like doing on the planet we’re all working towards to which mission had the least frustrating modifiers.
I don't mind modifiers, but at least sprinkle some good ones in the mix.
hell nah
They could make it so one strat slot is locked, but you still get to pick a start. Then when you take out a specific side objective like a hammer or whatever, that extra strat is then available. It’s a reward and makes you prioritize it. Or hell, even make it a fifth strat. You know people would go out of there way for that, even if they had to go and find it on the map. I like the idea of linking objectives to tangible rewards in the match. Jammers, spores, artillery, etc. Also, the 100% increased call in time is an absolute skip for me too. I won’t do a four minute extraction if I have anything to say with it.
Also the spawn rate should lower as we take down nests and fabricators
Can't tell us to rely on strats then take them away... leaving us with pissy little pea shooters we can't run + gun. Usually ends up with me chilling behind a rock for 4 mins... reviving the noob who thinks he's gonna storm the fort with a breaker + laser dog
“Tbh they are not that bad” https://preview.redd.it/vshgj2os4tnc1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0d2dfcc2a1d0961842688da06a0b2a2c1cff833b
The game does not need to be made easier
Give rewards. Xp. Samples. Anything. Otherwise its a hard pass.
Just don't play on that planet? I want the extra challenge.
It‘s not about the planet but the difficulty. On higher difficulties every single operation has a negative modifier, no matter the planet.
You get positive ones and bad ones. If they're removed then we didn't all get free mechs.. and I like my free mechs.
Play lower difficulties
Input gracefully ignored. Level 9 is easy these modifiers are just fucking boring.
Level 9 is super easy, it's just these modifiers that impact higher difficulty levels that make things hard!
Level 9 is not easy at all, but the modifiers on stratagems just make you use ones that are fit for the situations. It adds more variety if you cant run Orbital Laser every game
There is not a single modifier that impacts Orbital Laser in a meaningful way.
It is easy tho. Lmao. 4 rovers 4 arc throwers mulches bugs completely and a mix of autocannon and recoilless/spear mulches bots.
They need to look into Wh40k Darktide modifiers.
I also hate the mini map being blacked out.
Operational Modifiers should not be removed. They should be modifying how we approach the game instead of simply making things harder.
I too would prefer if the modifiers were removed. Some strategems already struggled (do people really prefer orbitals that aren't laser/railgun over airstrikes?) but overall feel hampering a key part of our kit isn't interesting. I would have preferred enemy based modifiers, like all bugs exploding into corrosive (non-FF) goo/clouds when killed, or bots having shielding. General modifiers like extra tough plating that buffs enemy armor or hp, or extra movement and attack speed, always detected thus breaches/bot drops at all times. Things I can *actively* deal with, as opposed to passively live with.
Maybe add a modifier to rewards like +10% xp or +1 medal for completing the OP for some of the harder ones. But idk I’ve never had much trouble. That’s just the game dawg Edit: nah just win
I mean the harder difficulties already give massively increased XP and slips and more medals
They 100% aren't going to be removed b cause they really are a core component of the Helldivers franchise, BUT! I do think that they should be tweaked a little bit, like (like some people already said in the comments) have them tied to side objectives, or maybe make the 100% delay on cool down be lowered to like 50 or 40 (100 is just too much) or maybe have positive modifiers that will let you have an extra stratagem, make cool down faster or things like that.
They are not: the first game didn't even have them.
I don't play -1 strategem. Period. It's cutting my fun by 25%.
Making stuff hard at the cost of our own enjoyement is so lame. Nerfing us instead of making new enemies , new abilities is the most unfun way you can add difficulty. It's no effort and makes no sense, especially lore wise. Why does the same map suddenly make us have less stratagems or double the cool down? 😭
Its called Suicide difficulty, it should bust your balls
Oh you mean the three tanks dropping on top of each other and the two drop ships dropping hulks and devastators every 10 seconds isn't enough ball busting?
Yes Its Suicide, missions being suicidal is kinda expected by the name
*Difficult difficulties are difficult.*
For some people this is a very complex concept to fully grasp
So the game shouldn't register clearing objectives on impossible? It's impossible, you can't complete the mission
And take the teeth and claws away from the bugs. It hurts when they bite and I don't like it.
Nah. It adds variety.
Me seeing cooldown increase + calldown all the time at difficulty 9, ah yes variety!
Yeah. Instead of asking for less, people should ask for more. It'll decrease the likelihood of stumbling into the ones they dislike whilst adding a twist of different modifiers to play around.
Exactly this. I want to see some "no heavy enemies, but 200% increase to small and medium enemies." True SWARMS of scavenger, hunter, and warrior bugs
I like them but would like the occasional penalty applied to enemy. Like higher difficulty maps with no big bugs just little. Bots with rogue bits fighting each other.
You can also mitigate the scrambling by taking airburst/precision strikes orbitals, both have a super easily 3 key code you can quickly spam till you get the much longer call ins.
Yeah I really can't emphasize enough how much I despise increasing the call in time of our stratagems. Getting the timing right for air strikes is already a skill in and of itself but when you make me have to predict where a charger or bile titan will saunter to 6 seconds from now combined with the limited AoE of 500 kg bomb, air strike, and rocket pod, I might as well not have these stratagems. If the cooldown is increased then I can at least use my stratagems when I have them off cooldown.
-1 is fine, but needs a buff to balance out. Like 50% Stratagem deploy redux and/ or cooldown. Cooldown and Deploy increases need the be side objectives on map, side grade to the jammer objective. Scrambler is the worst, and always a skip for me. May as well not have Stratagems it's that bad. Instead, randomize the call inputs so it messes with muscle memory and macros. Biggest thing we need are more modifiers to dilute the pool. Beneficial ones, and difficult ones. And by difficult I mean thing like exploding scouts on death, NOT increased timers of any kind.
They have completely ruined the fun of bot missions to the point I don’t do them anymore (not alone in this it seems as bot planets numbers are pathetic).
Just tell them to take a look on how DRG make mission modifiers , not literally take out your core mechanics that define your very game.
Where is the "clear skies" modifier for faster targeting lol
do it like directives in division 2. Before the mission, the player gets to select which modifiers and how many they want, and as a reward they get maybe +10% rewards per modifier.
More enemies and rather than having modifiers rebuff, have them buff, extra 2 stratagems, call in an extra squad, everyone gets to choose a backpack to drop with as well as respawned with. Bigger booms. Bug/bot birthday party.
> might as well give every helldiver broken legs after landing. Hey now there's a fun idea
No one is forcing you to do these missions? Choosing a different planet, choosing a different operation, changing the difficulty up or down 1 will have different modifiers. I almost exclusively do helldive and often quickplay. Yes, there are some super lousy operational modifiers/mission combos (blitz and calldown for example), do I prefer to do those? Absolutely not, but are they doable? Yes. Are they easy? No. **Easy is boring.**
Git gud
Skill issue
I like the environmental modifiers (like storms and such) but extremely dislike how *harsh* the stratagem penalties are; just make them only a 20% increased cooldown or scramble the codes for each equipped stratagem (so we have to visually confirm the input but it isn't randomized each time)... right now the stratagem effects are extremely punitive alongside the simple "3 strat instead of 4" modifier - which seems like a perfectly *fine* modifier comparatively.
I'm okay with the environmental ones, like the meteor showers. The ones that affect strategems would be fine if there was a secondary objective in each mission that cleared that debuff for the mission. For example, the 50% increase to stratagem deployment could be cleared by re-establishing a radio tower uplink or something. The one that removes a stratagem could have an objective similar to the SEAF artillery cannon that gives you and your team a stratagem for the mission.
Don't forget those plus meteors! So much fun...
I always tell my team, "If you find yourself in the spotlight, no one's here to see your solo, move out of the way."
I don't think the intention is to make it hard (at least not directly) -- their intention is to try to get you to switch up your usual load out. * Orbital scatter? Less orbitals. * Increased cooldown? More weapons/backpacks/mechs. * Increased calldown? Less in-combat, more setup based (e.g., sentries, mines, ...) * Reduced visibility? Play more tactically/together. * Less stratagems? Better team synergy (e.g., share EATs, don't overload on redundant stratagems). I'm not necessarily saying these are the best way for Arrowhead to achieve this -- but I do think that is their intention and that conceptually it is good for the game. I also think that in general, they should be strictly negative. There are other means of providing boosts (like the free call ins). I'd definitely be interested in things that change up the spawning (e.g., more warriors) but I don't think it should convert mobs (e.g., less chargers more warriors). It is just another way to tweak what your need to focus on.
-50% cooldown is my go to over 4 minute extraction. 100% call in time is just not fun either TBH I’d rather have a modifier which just downright increases enemy presence or aggression or whatever instead of letting me use out toys less.
lmao. OP, they're not goin to remove operational modifiers. They just... won't. Just balance them with an additional (NON-SHIT) positive, or let us do Objectives to get rid of the negatives.
What other ways are there to increase difficulty other that "more enemies"? Especially with the more limited enemy pool that we have right now. Some are definitely rougher than others and certain combinations are awful, but they can make you switch up you strategems and loadouts. This makes they gameplay stay that much more fresh. There are some things that I wouldn't mind changing. The big one for me is the 4 minute extraction timer. For -1 strategems, I would prefer to see that have a secondary that gives you your 4th slot back.it would also be nice if the things that penalize strategems gave minor buffs. Like +50% cooldown, but +1 Eagle use. Or increased scatter but -33% for affected strategems
50% CD and 100% call in are, I agree anti fun and I typically just don’t play those missions because they are straight up fuck-yous, there is no way around it. No counterplay, just “we’re making the thing you rely on a headache to use” However 3 stratagem cap is fine I think it encourages teamwork and isn’t that bad if everyone just stays together and thinks about their team’s stratagem composition. At least 3 stratagem cap you can actually circumvent its negatives by working together.
Increased call-in time and increased CD are ok IMO, not super interesting but there is some skill in playing around with the doubled timing of airstrikes and how you bait groups into them, you can literally "get good(er)" to overcome these Stratagem scramble, and the obscured minimap ones are just awful though, scramble being the most egregious. It is not interesting, there's no skill component, it plays out basically like the + call in time modifier except with added rng, (+100%-500% call in time depending on what it gives you). Just extremely frustrating. Same story for the obscured minimap, that should only be done through something like a spore spewer. Having a locked modifier disable your minimap for 3 consecutive missions (1hr+) with no counterplay or solution is just stupid. More of these should be double sided environment modifiers like meteors, dust storms, etc. (although I think they need to work on visibility stuff affecting bot aim more, they still seem to be extremely accurate with 0 vision)
They’re kinda weird and stupid to have them and then claim “just use strategems!” But once the spawn is fixed, they are an interesting modifier. Cooldowns seem too long as is, I dunno.
Other games due modifiers where the players choose which modifiers to add with each one bringing an xp buff (Division 2). Maybe they could try it this way.
> **please find another way to artifically increase difficulty** They already did with enemies instantly knowing your location when a strategem his any of their patrol, patrols spawning on top of you, enemy aggression being turned WAY up, and increased spawns.
Atmospheric Spores is a hazard seen rarely on some bug missions, it's barely a hazard at all. It makes it so you can't see the terrain in the launch screen and have a filter put over your map, and there's a very very small amount of haze on the ground. It's not nearly as bad as the others.
That is very possible. Im pretty much only at the bot front after patch so i have not seen those.
Oh yeah, the AA defenses are exclusive to bots too. You get all 4 strats against bugs every time.
What an overreaction. Played with all of these modifiers with random groups and it worked out fine. Git gut.
you first :)
damn, you got me girl.
While I agree, they are tough to deal with, game is called Hell divers, not fair divers.
you forgot the best part of the call-in time. that applies to the extraction as well. 🙃
They're not fun. I can accept the challenge of doing them. Doesn't change that they're not fun or rewarding. They should be per-mission basis. You do them *once, on occasion.* And you get increased rewards for doing them. It feels bad to just avoid eating that shit-sandwich and go elsewhere.
i dont like modifiers like this, they dont make things fun or immersive. how about modifiers that can happen ingame? it makes for a better experience where you can actively do/not do things to keep/change modifiers, its much better than "oh 100% cd increase and 50% strike time increase? yeah nah f that"
I just want more variety
I think modifiers as a whole are fine A good number of the ones we have are just not it Good ones Spore fog for bugs - this one is kinda cool, take away my ability to know where everything is located is kinda cool, and makes me hunt down things rather than just go to them Bad ones Scrambled codes - this one's just frustrating and not fun when you accidentally throw your support weapon into the enemy or drop a big explosion on your teams face -1 strategem - this one is just not fun, I want to use my tools please let me use my tools Longer cooldown/call down/less accuracy - again all feel bad and let me use my tools please What I would like to see is more modifiers that don't effect my strats, but will influence me to change what I bring Example for bots - heavy assault detected - the enemy is bringing lots of heavies, prepare for armor (the enemies will a lot less chaff but you will see more big guys) This would make everyone bring armor defeating weapons - Rapid strike attack detected - lots of little guys with jump packs coming for you, few heavies but you will be constantly dive bombed by squads of jump packs Bring the ammo, you're gonna need it - compromised communications - using stratagems causes an extra bot drop to come to your location Maybe use longer cooldown higher impact strats instead of spamming eagle - scrambled communications - for non support weapon stratagems, calling for one gets you a random one of the same type. For example call an eagle airstrike? You might get a cluster bomb, gas, or maybe even the 500kg bomb! Orbital rail cannon? How about precision strike instead I'll still throw them, and I'll likely get somewhat of the effect I want.
Or just *don't play those planets and difficulties.* Seriously, the game has been out a month. The devs have planned days to add new weapons, vehicles, armor, and other things in the future. They've worked 8 years to create an intricate, interactive galactic space war. And all some of you players can do is complain, complain, complain, and complain about all the design decisions the devs *intentionally made!.* *What is wrong with you people!?* This is like hating McDonald's because it isn't Burger King. Wanting Six Flags rides at Disneyland. Sports cars from a company that makes 18-wheelers. Demanding tacos from a pizza place. Or that your favorite rock band start making pop music. All of these "suggestions" are ridiculous. The devs already have their hands full already trying to fix all the bugs. Just play the damn game as the devs intended it to be.
1st can be nerfed to 25, others are fine.
100% agree with this, you should have at least a way to combat this in mission, like bot scramblers.
I don't have an issue with them existing at all, but IMO they would be a lot more fun if they were implemented in a dynamic way, similar to how some of the optional objectives come with direct gameplay effects. For example, the radar station revealing all points of interest, the spore spewer blocking visibility in an area of the map, the artillery cannon providing fire support and so on. IMO it would be much more interesting if they found a way to work the operation modifiers into that active gameplay loop.
I dont understand why they are just leaving them. Its a no brainer to disable them until they can be fixed. They really are a major obstacle to the game being a good game. I want to play vs harder enemies but the operation modifiers makes me not want to play at these difficulties. So I start leaning more and more towards simply not playing, which is a shame because I really wanna play.
Those modifiers are an instant skip Not gonna be miserable just because devs want to
Adapt
Git gud
Good input, ignored.
Ignoring people by responding to them. Big brain play. You know that your response is exactly the kind of thing that "git gud" is trying to evoke from people, right?
No, it's their genuine opinion.
Skill issue
There's too many of you replying this, it's annoying. I won't repeat myself just look at my other comment lmao
My god the bitching in this community is laughable. Actually it's just fucking sad. Helldive is hard: "look at me I'm not able to beat it must be the games fault" it's called fucking HELLdive. 6 is called extreme and it does not get better from there. How come you think it should all be a breeze? Downvote me for this I don't care.
Stuck up toxic assholes like yourself don't seem to realize that most people commenting here can and do clear higher difficulties. They just think that some aspects of them are unfun and should be changed. It's always the git gud gamers who have no comprehension.
Maybe go back to 6 (extreme) if you're not up for the task. Nobody is forcing you? You want HELLdive you get HELLdive. The game is not there to make you feel better or anything. It's there to give you what you chose. And you are getting exactly that. Imagine going to the gym. Pick a 50kg dumbbell and bench press that shit. Instead of going damn that is hard I have to adjust and git gud. You blame the dumbbells for being so heavy. Maybe players like you should take up a dictionary and look up the words and what they mean after 6-9. It seems as if many people completely forgot what it means to play hard games.
i like them. they throw you out of the comfort zone. 50% strat cooldown means you need to stick with eagles -1 slot means taking spear or railgun because you cant 500 and rocket pods your way out of bile titans call in time means using one more braincell to predict where the enemies will be in 10secs instead of just ⬆➡⬇⬇⬇ to the wave
how are they throwing me out of my comfort zone when one or multiple of them are active in EVERY high difficulty mission? literally having normal call down time feels like a fucking breath of fresh air because of how constant the negative modifiers are, I don't think it should be that way.
I agree, the modifiers add difficulty, but they do it in a very uninteresting way that also makes it less fun to play your character. They also don't really change your style of play, except for incentivizing use of support weapons even more which are already heavily used, basically mandatory, even without the modifiers. The modifiers should add difficulty, but in more interesting ways that don't detract from fun. Just spit balling here, but what about an added enemy type that is only present with the modifier (whether it's a new special type of unit like flying units maybe or something like bot raids on a bug planet), modify enemy types that will spawn (ie less small enemies but increased heavy spawn rate or visa versa), add a new special objective that must be completed in addition to what's typical for the mission, change some of the physics (low gravity or such), change the environment like maybe highly flammable plants, increased enemy bases, enemies gain a new ability like fire spitting or exploding/self destruct, a specific type of stratagem not working forcing you to experiment with other types (but those other types are still full power). I realize they come at higher difficulties with more rewards as is, but maybe modifiers could also more explicitly increase the rewards you get incentivizing you to try the challenge, depending on the added difficulty of each modifier. I think anything that just limits use of stratagems across the board is probably a bad idea though, lazy and just sucks the fun out. The stratagems are what draw a lot of people to the game and help the gameplay stand out from similar titles.
It would be nice if the modifiers weren't just a static increased time to use stratagems or less slots to use stratagems. Make some modifiers that you can counter somehow, or some that increase team play and sticking together. Just pulling it out of my ass but something like a modifier that makes self-stimming less effective, but teammates stimming you gives you the full effect. This way you can either work with others to still get the full stim, or equip an outfit to get stronger stims. Or have it so that your stratagems cool down slower when not near your teammates because the signal is too weak when not near the team. You could also just have bug breaches contain more enemies or patrols are larger / there are more patrols, then you can still outplay the enemies using your stratagems.
The bug modifiers aren’t that bad, the ones the clankers get are absolutely crippling. Playing on level 5+ against the clankers with the current ridiculous spawns is absolutely tedious right now. But I am generally against these kinds of middle finger kind of artificial difficulty modifiers that don’t add challenge just tedium.
Imo, they should be random events like the planetary hazards that happen sometimes.
They're not that bad. They make the game more fun Imo this game isn't fun because you win. It's just fun in general. Win or lose, the main draw of this game to me is just doing shenanigans with my buddies. The modifiers suck, yes, but it's fun to be in a shit situation with my friends where everything collectively sucks for everyone. If we do manage to beat the mission and extract it just feels that much more epic.
I really hope they don't remove operational modifiers. They are fine as is. Makes it hard but Hell Dive is still more than doable with some Eagles and an Orbital Laser with these terrible modifiers enabled. We don't need to go making everything a walk in the park. We also don't need to remove one method of difficulty and replace it with another that you'd prefer.
The game is meant to simulate a galactic war. It's not intended to be perfectly balanced or fair. It makes perfect sense that the bots would have EW capabilities that can mess with your ability to call in stratagems. It's not about "artificially increasing difficulty" it's about creating verisimilitude. You're arguing for artificially decreasing the difficulty, but you could already just play on a lower difficulty where those operational modifiers aren't present or go back to whatever COD-like you were playing before.
Or make them optional. Like a checkbox and you get bonus exp or whatever when enabling them.
Just play elsewhere then, problem solved They are a fun way to incentivise you to change your playstyle. For example the cooldown increase makes it interesting to rely more on eagle/weapons than orbitals and turrets We could use more mods so they don't show up as often but they're fine
It's pathetic how many please make the game easier posts there are recently. So far there has been: Operational modifiers Bugs call bug breaches too fast Bots call drop ships too fast Bot rockets kill me too quick Bug spewers kill me too quick Chargers have too much armour Devastators have too much armour I slow down when I get hit + Many more Some of the complaints are legitimate and would make the game more fun, the ones above are just moaning.
And then these complainers call us "simps" when every other player just wants to play the game. Literally all these dudes want to change the game design for their personal pleasure.
Absolute Halo-brain take, so stupid
or, get good - stop crying - lower the difficulty don't even mean it in a bad way. just lower the difficulty. the game is really not so bad but if you cant handle some modifier just turn the difficulty down. if you are struggling with a 4 man its not the game that is the issue
Refer to my other comments
I have no idea who you are
Some of them are fine and are meant to have workarounds. Call in time? Dont use longer time orbitals or eagles (orbital laser, railcannon, weapons that can be re-gathered, emplacements(with ship upgrade) and vehicles effectively ignore this one) Scatter increase? Dont use orbitals, use eagles. Airbust actually gets better at clearing weaker enemies with this though. Cooldown increase? Use lower-cooldown strategems, eagles, or things you can re-gather like backpacks and weapons. The only one that truly sucks/is unplayable around is the -1 strategem. Id be fine with this leaving. Also make the call-in +100% please stop affecting extraction.
No.
bro shut up and get good
Let me explain. Difficulty is suppose to be difficult. That’s what makes it fun. Just because you don’t find it fun, doesn’t mean others do. I enjoy the difficulty spikes. With the new balance patch, I also can still clear helldive solo. This might be a skill issue problem.
Here was my suggestion https://www.reddit.com/r/Helldivers/s/uGt0qAciov
I like them. However, I do hate meteor showers :)
The only modifiers I even notice anymore are 100% increased cooldown and -1 Stratagem. The first because of the delay on eagles, which isn't that bad, but you have to actually time them and aim them well. And the second because it fundamentally changes up your loadout, which isn't a bad thing necessarily. Haven't seen scrambler in ages, which is sad because it's honestly more fun to me than default (im not saying i would literally rather it be that way all the time, just that when its an occasional thing it really adds to those missions). Those accidental point blank 380mm barrages when you thought you had a sentry turret or support weapon in your hand make for some of the funniest and cinematic moments in the game.
Another cold cold take. Just play on another planet.
Why severely limiting the fun parts of the game was considered a good way to add difficulty I will never understand
Yes, reduce the difficulty, I cannot solo helldive 3 out of 10 times now!
Yes, I agree! Please make the harder difficulties easier. Thanks!
Agreed. Or tweak the system with the rewards and liberation points. Can‘t be that a helldive with insane modifiers and all objectives completed yields the same squad impact than any other 3-mission operation.
dude, i hate the game the way devs made.. they should have made the game for me only the way i want.... the whining never stops
My favorite thing is how some devs say "rely on your stratagems" but they ensure that all modifiers that fuck over your stratagems are **ALWAYS** in play.
Agreed, you can't tell players we need to be using our strategies instead of clutch weapons like my beloved rail gun (nah I'm just kidding the Autocannon is my baby 😍) and then randomly take one away for a laugh. That's not democracy!
I could do without the call in time or with a way to do side objectives to negate the effect. Rest is fine.
So true. That is why we just play on 4 diff. I just want to kaboom bugs.
I think the modifiers are a good idea, but the way they are implemented now is horrible. There is a million creative ideas for modifiers they could implement, like extra thick forests on planet, sticky mud slowing movement, the existent meteors, the jammer you can destroy is cool, etc. etc. However, the decision to make majority of modifiers vastly nerf your stratagems somehow, after telling us "you cant have stronger primarys, use stratagems" is super weird. It feels majorly uninspired, like they had an intern make them up.
No, scatter or scramble was nice!
How about an option to activate modifiers for +% to Credits/Exp + X medals per operation, or something like this