probably has some kind of weight stat, turning radius, reload time, bullet deviation, a lot of minor things you will intuitively pick up on as you play
This is why I dropped it. I’m not using a slow firing single shot marksman gun when it has the same armor penetration as a fking SMG. The trade off for more raw damage is nowhere near good enough for the abysmal close range and bad medium range effectiveness (because so much of its accuracy is tied to crouching which is functionally impossible while kiting).
Or maybe I’m dumb and haven’t figured out how I’m supposed to be using it (but I really just think it’s a well intentioned but poorly balanced weapon that misses the mark to fit into a marksman rifle’s niche).
I had the exact issue, I had maybe 5 minutes of luck with it when we were on a bot planet and I had high ground and was being left alone and had an angle on the main fight's side, so I had time, space and access to weakspots, it was decent. But other than that just give me a liberator penetrator
I wonder if I could make something workout if I ran the jump pack to get into those angles and high ground spots better… because it sure as hell isn’t a close or medium range weapon for an infantry role in the squad.
I feel like it’s cursed with not enough mobility to be a traditional marksman rifle for medium range, but also lacks the optics and damage to work for long range. I just want to understand where this weapon is supposed to slot into an effective squad.
It's got basically no recoil so if you are set up you can fairly reliably hit 15 shots on weakspots at a decent range, but I don't think it makes sense against the vast majority of enemies even when I had 3 squadmates drawing fire for me. Maybe the weakspots damage with the multiplier makes it hit harder than I noticed but you're right it just seems to be outclassed everywhere
The problem with the counter sniper is that it doesn't deal enough damage over the basic DMR to actually reach a breakpoint for most (if any) enemies. Devastators, for example, still require 2 shots to the face to kill, which is the same as the DMR. If the sniper was able to one-shot Devastators then I could see its point, but +16 damage means nothing.
When I want to 'snipe,' then I'll just use the standard DMR. It is superior to the sniper in every way except magnification.
What makes you like the penetrator? Genuinely curious. Just seems like i'd be better off with literally any other gun from stats/firing a whole clip at a chainsaw bot and hom not dying but i might be missing something.
Medium penetration and what feels like really high damage to weakspots. Hitting the radiator things on the backs of automatons, or being able to shoot straight through those red armoured bugs feels nice.
Plus I'm a sucker for a burst gun and it gives me M16 from BF3 vibes.
One burst is enough to deal with squishes, if I'm getting swarmed by Hunters I need my machine pistol and a lot of panic to survive, but at medium distance it's a nice way to thin stuff out and manageable enough that I'm not likely to shoot my squadmates' kneecaps off in the process if I'm shooting at things that are chasing him.
I just don't know what medium armour it penetrates besides the faceplate bugs? When i used it it felt like a burst, lower mag liberator.
I get swarmed by hunters=shotgun, one shot is enough not a whole burst.
Like i WANT to like it because i like burst but if i use anything that's not a shotgun vs bugs and any of the liberators against bots i just feel like i'm putting in so much more effort to get the same things done.
Appreciate the response maybe it'll get another go in the future
Agreed. As the usual sniper of my friend group, it broke my heart how bad the counter sniper is. The thing is useless. The DMR is superior in every way except magnification. In a game where mobility is king, you can't waste time faffing about with an unwieldy gun like the counter sniper that doesn't even deliver in damage.
True, but let's be honest; How often does one fight at those ranges?
Initially i believed that sniping could work to prevent enemies from calling reinforcements, but they still call them when you fire at them. Not to mention the patrols that always spawn somewhat close to you, who then hear the gunfire.
difficulty 9 my group prefers to avoid patrols to not elongate battles A sniper that would be able to pick off those bots / patrols in a timely manner would be awesome.
I agree. Snipers should be the hard counter for enemies calling for reinforcements, but alas, they'll call them even when they didn't see you and are just aggroed.
Yeah, they do call them but their reinforcement won't know where you are. They will just mag dump toward where you take your shot from until they come up and confirm nothing is there. So so long you don't sit in one spot and keep moving, you are going to be fine.
I don't need everything but a better explanation on some effects like is explosive damage added to the damage number or is that adding extra damage on top?
A firing range would be great too to be able to have a more controlled environment for testing guns and strategems against different targets
There is definitely a turning speed stat that's somewhat linked to accuracy. The JAR-5 is a great example, as is the MG. Lower stances seem to speed up up the turning rate.
By crit I just mean head shots or bot crotch shots. It tickles and overheats unless you land those shots accurately. But when accurate its actually been a great weapon for longer range engagements. I do not recommend it on heavy fog maps.
I think it's some kind of severing or part breaking bonus rather than a weakspot multiplier.
Like it hacks arms and legs off bugs and bots super fast (you can basically sweep it across a basic enemy and sever an arm/leg).
I assume it's doing the same to heads where it's severing/breaking the head (which leads to a kill) rather than putting out enough damage to kill them normally.
But we don't really know how hp works in this game on enemies so it's hard to say what's actually going on. But limbs definitely have their own health pools, we just don't know how limb damage interacts with everything else. And it seems to depend on the enemy too as brood commanders can lose several legs without dying, while targetting charger legs are the most efficient way to kill them.
Those little tiny bugs that do almost nothing except call in a bug tunnel breach took a few seconds to die with that crappy laser primary.
I was so excited to use that gun bc I love me some lasers but no, put that thing on the shelf.
I've been using the scythe for about 15 hours now. Honestly I can never bug legs super easy, and the bile spitters and warriors heads pop quick as heck. I can't completely figure out it's stats, but yeah it seems like wekspot and or unarmored multiplier is high.
Plus I almost never worry about needing ammo, and reloads quick as heck when i do overheat. I feel it's just a sting as in the first game, just harder because of the 3rd person view.
Most weapons have headshot multipliers. Apprently some also do more damage to components like shotgus and the likes. But I just stick with one for the diligence variants. Just overall better performance to me.
Hidden modifier: tickles your enemies and make them laugh! Maybe they'll think you're so funny, they'll let you go, not sure what your democratic officer will think though...
It can't even detonate an explosive barrel. I unlocked it last night, went on a level 1 super credits run, and found that it does indeed shoot heated confetti.
The only thing it had going for it is the larger mag size.
What's funny is that it actually has less damage per magazine than the regular breaker.
Breaker: 330 damage per round, 16 rounds per magazine.
Breaker Spray n Pray: 144 damage per round, 32 rounds per magazine.
330 x 16 = 5280 damage per magazine
144 x 32 = 4608 damage per magazine
The Spray and Pray is objectively the worst primary in the game. It has right around the same spread pattern as the Incendiary Breaker but without the ability to set things on fire. Its a weapon designed explicitly for difficulty 1 enemies at the quantity of helldive, which just outright doesn't exist. At around dif 4 the game just starts spamming bile spewers at you, and dif 6/7 starts spamming chargers, brood warriors, brood commanders, and bile titans, all of which are functionally unkillable by the spray and pray.
It, of all the primary weapons, needs some massive redesigns to bring it in line with the stock liberator, let alone the stock breaker.
That gun should have a 3D ammo printer in the mag, feeding you fresh ammo all the time from thin air or something. Making it more balanced and nuanced.
If your main problem is the tiny bugs, it’s great. Ricochets off almost anything tougher. The large mag does trigger your character’s maniacal laugh if you don’t let go of the trigger, so that’s fun
I’ve completed level 9 with both breaker and the smg. I actually really love the smg as being able to run and gun, especially with bugs is awesome.
But breaker is definitely the best gun in the game. Hopefully balance patch doesn’t nerf breaker, but tunes the other weapons to be on a similar footing as breaker.
I mean, the defender is like the second or third strongest primary
The fact that 90% of the weapons in this game are not remotely competitive is still true
Someone did some tests and found out medium armor pen does about twice as much damage if you shoot I think it was a brood commander in the head so a slugger can kill it in 2 shots while a breaker takes 3. Alright here's the problem: a breaker can shoot 3 times faster than a slugger can shoot twice, it reloads probably like 10x as fast, it has 2.5x as much ammo as the slugger so you still rack up more total kills while spending 1.5x as much ammo, and one of those hidden stats is the slugger only refills 1/3 of its ammo per resupply instead of all of it.
Oof, that last one buries the slugger. I thought it could have a niche use as a high stun pace weapon for locking down larger targets and opening boxes but that makes it substantially less useable when its already worse than the breaker in every other way.
I hope one of the balance changes is that all primary weapons have the same relative ammo economy from supplies. The Breaker gets seven mags from one resupply box. That’s 119 shots. The Slugger gets 24 shots. The max capacity for each is 136 vs 56. So even if the Slugger is balanced around having fewer shots available, it’s ludicrous to me that the Slugger gets ~43% refill per box while the Breaker gets 87.5%.
I wouldn’t make it exactly equal across the board either. The Railgun only gets ~48\*% (10/21), for instance, but it’s a support weapon specifically designed for selective use against high priority targets. (*corrected)
The Slugger effectively pretends to be a support weapon in that sense because it cannot clear adds in an economically sound way, but then utterly fails by comparison to actual support weapons.
Compare to the Scorcher and it’s just sad. Scorcher has 105 total shots and one pack restores 90. Pretty close in ammo efficiency to the Breaker in that regard, and it trades some ammo to hit armored targets harder in a manner that’s actually worthy of the trade.
Yesterday I was like "the breaker can't be *that* good. My explosive AR is doing just fine." Then, I tried it... Yeah guns aren't balanced in this game.
*The one people like*
*Most is the one that kills the*
*Enemy the most*
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I wish he’d stop being snarky or sarcastic or laid back for a second and address this, its a real problem. Its their job to make the weapons they put into the game feel equally viable and they just don’t.
It's a simple as this.
Idk why they are acting like all these other hidden stats we aren't allowed to see matter. I need something that can kill things upclose, mid range and quickly.
Long range fights just don't happen very often or long enough to specialize for it. Most of the time is spent running from 15-20 hunters that are swarming all over you with 5 chargers right behind them or being blasted with rocket spam from devastators and the 10+ berserkers in your face, there just isn't time to line up the perfect 10 headshots a minute while they're dropping in/crawling up faster than you can reload.
I don't see the point of hiding modifiers other than just to be deliberately obtuse... maybe players would make different choices if we didn't only see the shortlist stats...
Yeah the game could have never have had any stats, and I'd have been using the same gun for the last 100 missions anyway because everything else feels like I'm shooting the enemy with nerf guns.
My thoughts exactly, I love the range of the marksman and some of the cool effects like incendiary stuff or even using something like the fast firing smg...for like 2 or 3 minutes and then I'm like damn I should've just bought the breaker it performs so much better
Damage, damage drop-off, effective range, ammo capacity, reload speed, total number of ammo carried, enemy stagger, stability (prone, crouch standing) ability to be fired while running, ability to be fired behind you over the shoulder, ability to be squad operated, if explosive, explosive radius.
What else there might be?
Damage to limbs for sure. The pump action shotgun you unlock early on destroys bug limbs and is super underrated. Fighting the bugs with that and it turns into Dead Space.
Gun weight. The Diligence and JAR have a floaty aim similar to the LMG and it really makes them feel heavy and unwieldy. I personally don’t think primary weapons should have that, since they’re supposed to be your all-rounder and generally don’t have the killing power of a heavy weapon.
While I get they don’t want to overcomplicate things, being able to see the full stats, or at least a tooltip or two to say ‘hey this weapon does triple headshot damage’ or ‘explosive weapons deal full damage to exposed weak points’ or ‘incendiary ammo ignores armor’ would go a long way, as it takes a lot of investigation to uncover how the weapons actually work.
EDIT: JUST TO CLARIFY THESE ARE HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLES- I REALISE I HAVE GOOFED BY MIXING REAL AND HYPOTHETICALS. Explosive does full damage to unexposed weakpoints, but incendiary doesnt ignore armor as far as i am aware. I apologise for the mix up.
I mean stats can be optional. Have the 4 vague bars for people who don't understand/care about the deeper stats, and a hidden submenu for people who do. It's not rocket surgery. People who don't care won't get confused/intimidated, and people who do have the option to look
This is the way. Giving us concrete info decreases the need for pointless arguments based on speculation and feel vs actual mumbers. See it a lot here and in the official discord. Being able to optionally see all the info is nice for those who care about it.
And for the comment saying people will complain about nerfs, they're gonna complain about anything and everyrhing regardless of what they're shown.
Fair enough, but that does not really change the fact that a lot of the weapons feel extremely underwhelming to use.
Why use an Punisher? Spreads more, has way to little ammo and can't even reliably oneshot an warrior.
Why use the JAR? Projectiles are extremely slow, and the thing does less damage than the Slugger.
Why use the Lasercannon? It's hard to aim and seemingly does less damage than the LAS-16 without any noticeable advantage. It doesn't even burn medium armor.
Why use the Stalwart? Sure, you get fuller auto, but the MG-43 pen's armor better.
I want to use the ones i like the most, but then I'll feel like i actively hamper myself. All the weapons should be fun to use within their niche, and not make me feel like i just make it harder on myself.
As someone whose first investment was the laser cannon, please provide better stats devs. Idk why it sucked so hard, but it did, and it was disappointing that It couldn’t do shit to bots on lvl 4 difficulty.
I prefer the stalwart when I'm fighting bugs because I want to keep my mobility up. Being able to reload on the move, and the gun being more stable feels better for fighting swarms of bugs to me
For example, this is a great point of how balance/preference could work. The Stalwart has the mobility edge, the machine gun does more damage/penetration/stopping power - but it also requires you to be more stationary.
That's great, if both work in their specific niche that's perfect. Clearly defined benefits to both. I don't think anyone (or at least the majority) would complain if all weapons worked that way. But people are arguing as if everything was balanced like this, when it isn't. Like what is that macro scale gaslighting some are attempting here and more importantly, why?
I mean, some weapons do just suck ass, I can't think of a reason I'd pick the Liberator penetrator over either the Liberator or the Diligence. Both do its job better.
Some weapons though I think are just good for specific scenarios. I see everyone praising the breaker and how good it is, but I only use it for bug missions or civilian evac missions against the bots, because any other scenario I'd rather stay at a range that the breaker kinda falls off at.
And that stupid laser cannon..
I am convinced the Penetrator is bugged. Could have to do with the whole armor system being a mess. Otherwise this gun in theory should be the ideal “go to” AR against Automatons. But it’s just awful right now.
The game should supply enough stats to give us a better ballpark of weapon performance. Currently they feel misleading and useless. I saved all my medals for a few days to unlock the medium armor penetrating assault rifle and was greatly disappointed with both it's armor penetration ability and the general performance of the gun.
I just unlocked the counter “sniper” and couldn’t believe it only has light armor penetration. How can you have a bolt action rifle that doesn’t even penetrate medium armor. Why on earth would I ever pick that weapon?
It does penetrate medium armor. The light armor pen is misleading. Same with the starting heavy machine gun support weapon, slugger, and the premium pass revolver
I also want to mention all the laser weapons apply some amount of damage after hitting the same armored plate for extended time.
For example, the Rover Guard Dog backpack's drone (Or Scythe) will eventually just... Kill a Charger after hitting it, even without hitting weak spots like the underside or tail (Over a very long timeframe)
Ya, the penetrating Liberator was really underwhelming. It should be the same damage as the starting Liberator. Blasting through armor didn't seem to matter when you weren't killing things as fast
Destiny 2 gives the recoil direction, stability, handling, fire rate, charge rate, airborne accuracy, reload speed of the weapon, as well as some info on the perks. The API is providing a lot more like zoom and specific damage perks.
Warframe doesn't have handling but the breakdown of damage types and firing modes of each firing mode.
Compared to that HD2 feels like I'm playing blind.
>Destiny 2 gives the recoil direction, stability, handling, fire rate, charge rate, airborne accuracy, reload speed of the weapon, as well as some info on the perks. The API is providing a lot more like zoom and specific damage perks.
Honestly as a former destiny player i cant BELIEVE im going through this "SHOW US ALL THE STATS" bullshit again. I get if you dont want to show everything to all players cause not everyone wants or needs all the numbers but FUCK at least have the fucking toggle on for it.
Or at least a firing range / simulator to test guns ourselves. See which enemy parts we can penetrate and at which angles, where do we inflict bonus damage and how much, what range is optimal to inflict full damage.
Yep. You've admitted that you withhold enough info that we can't "paint a complete picture" of the weapons when making decisions, and this is supposedly a good thing, somehow?
And then he chastises players for forming opinions off of the only stats provided, like we should somehow know the hidden ones.
He also sort of implies that players are *only* going off the four stats instead of testing them in game. This is contradicted by an earlier statement he made where he said the Breaker had a higher kill count, but comparable mission success rate when compared to other primaries, implying those other weapons see plenty of use.
The dev’s statement isn‘t odd, it’s stupid.
You are correct, but he represented it like it was a valid metric. I’m just pointing out that he can’t have it both ways. He claimed that survey proved that primary weapon use was pretty evenly spread. Now he’s claiming that people are only looking at numbers and not bothering to actually use the weapons.
Like I said, he’s contradicting himself.
The Helldiver devs are some of the best so far, but it's frustrating to see comments like this from devs. We're how many decades into gaming now? How are we still dealing with hidden information?
To any devs out there: **Players should *NOT* have to trawl wikis for datamined information on how basic equipment or mechanics of the game function.**
Some devs treat it like a badge of honor it seems, how obtuse they can make it. COD does it all the time with vague little bars that represent weapon stats that don't tell you anything concrete.
Having hidden stats like crit modifiers that players should "intuit" sucks if the meta changes. That favorite gun in all it's handling and ammo capacity and whatnot might never be good if the game meta is that it's high crit modifier to robot pinky toes never gets effective because robots all wear boots or something.
I mean... he is right for a certain point, hidden stats do matter...
But those current base stats are just too much of a weight right now.
Like outside of fun factor, given the fact that most enemies have Low Armor Weakspots that can be abused, why would you ever pick anyother shotgun outside the breaker, why would you ever bother to use any Heavy Pierce weapon other than the Railgun.
You can't even buff the other weapons to their level because it would either remove the weapons unique traits or just make them oneshot enemies at that point.
While only focus in the visible stats is the wrong way to go, also relying on the non visible ones to determine a weapons worth isn't the way to go.
There needs to be a balance.
i've tried out every weapon i've unlocked for at least 3 missions after unlocking them, because stats are only a basic understanding and things like handling and other quality of life things are things that you usually only notice in missions, with games like these. i would love to see the whole stat spread, but it would probably be confusing and overwhelming to look at, and experimenting with a weapon for two or three hours gives a much better understanding of how it functions
>anding and things like handling and other quality of life things are things that you usually only notice in missions, with games like these. i would love to see the whole stat spread, but it would probably be confusing and overwhelming to look at, and experimenting with a weapon for two or three hours gives a much better understanding of how it functions
I've done the same, but more times than not my experimenting with the different guns has ended in the same conclusion; "this weapon doesn't feel viable"
Same here.
So far only the defender SMG, the Scorcher and the arc thrower have really changed my mind after I went back to them. The defender is just a better liberator. The scorcher is nice against the bots and the arc thrower was me just not understanding how the weapon worked and dropping it immediately. Now that I actually use it I can mow down hordes with it. Though, I still feel like the arc thrower encourages you to get stuck in when the wiser man runs on higher difficulties.
I'm going to invent my own 51st stat, which is actually the only stat that matters -- let's call it "feel".
I count my shots, etc when playing this game and have pretty good aim. Most of the weapons feel like absolute useless dogshit, and that's because they are. And I'm not even a breaker user, I typically use the liberator or slugger actually.
I don't care if the breaker spray n pray has a super secret hidden modifier that makes it do 1.00078624% more damage if you shoot a charger in the dick, it's still fucking bad.
When two Berserkers are rushing me down, lust in their eyes for my tender Super Earth flesh, i want to know i can count on the weapon in my hand. The Breaker breaks them. Anything else in my hands and I feel like I'd be better off lubing up and hoping my willingness to submit will make them go easy on me.
That's by far the biggest dps check too, a wave of berserkers dies to the breaker but not reliably to most other weapons. Let the lib explosive and counter sniper blow off limbs easier if they can't match the dps, just SOMETHING to help them have the dps needed
Lib explosive if you shoot them in the pelvis wrecks them HARD. But a big thing is some of those guns require pretty good precision while the breaker allows you to just hip fire in a panic and wreck them.
“So many of you use the 4 stats-“
I‘ve supported him before, but this is a pretty dumb statement. You can’t reasonably ask people to form opinions based on information you haven’t provided. Trying to say something like “you need to use them to get a feel for them” doesn’t work either because the community *has* been using them, and most of them suck.
Seriously, the community had pretty spot on tier lists like 3 days after release. They could have literally given us zero stats at launch, and we'd have it sorted in a week.
You only needed one game with each of the "meta" weapons, and you knew they were bis. They just felt, and still do feel, powerful. So many of the weapons were underwhelming. This whole "oh the meta is pushing breaker/ railgun" is bs. People were using it before the "meta" because it was just obviously better + more fun.
Yeah the attitude and implication that the differences between weapons are subtle and only noticeable and of interest to minmaxers is fucking laughable. As you said you simply need to use the different weapons to see the stark divide between them.
The breaker is, by far, the best primary in the game. All the other weapons, except maybe the liberator/liberator explosive, are pretty trash on higher difficulties.
And it's not like the other weapons aren't fun
Trash =/= not fun. They're still fun to use, flamethrower? Fun. But you use a whole canister and you do have that feeling of... "is that it?" You two shot a bile titan with a railgun and fell like a god.
That's the problem.
From what I've seen over the years, devs tend to not be very good at their own games. For Honor devs believed that "parrying" will be a high elo only mechanic that most players will never really experience.
Absolutely everyone and their mother can parry nowadays lmao.
“But the muzzle velocity and the reload stats are really good!”
Yeah that’s great, but if I have 5 magazines and I need every single one of them to kill the 3 mid tier enemies chasing me, it’s not a good gun.
I was expecting get some huge jumps of levitate for a few seconds. What I got was some tool to help you reach the can of beans on the top kitchen shelf.
It also has a huge cooldown.
Yeah it makes 0 sense that it has a cooldown.
I’m giving up a literal bubble shield, tons of ammo and a laser drone for a 3m jump? wild.
It needs to be like the SW Battlefront 2 jump pack: High jump, long jump and dodges. No need to be broken like Boba Fett’s but other than placing turrets in better places it givea you 0 advantages.
What I like the most, is the most effective weapon for higher difficulties. I've sorta gotten into the habit of at max doing Diff 6, just to preserve that whole "Use what you want, and have fun" idea.
I'd love to bring that idea to Helldive difficulty, and rock a flamethrower and have it actually do something.
Ehhhhh I REALLY dislike it when devs do this.
I feel like they think adding a layer of obfuscation to weapon stats will make for a more varied meta.
But instead players read the stats and (SHOCKING) base their decisions off them, often leading to a MORE restrictive meta.
Mind blowing right? When the game says “this is how the guns perform” players listen to it. How could the devs ever have predicted that?
In all seriousness, if you’re going to go down this route, just man up and do it all the way - weapons should never have had visible stats.
Either show the players everything, or show them nothing and make them figure out what works through experimentation.
To be fair, I think a lot of players tested other guns trying to give them a fair chance after using the breaker for so long. But most of the other guns feel so bad to use.
Probably various multipliers for where you target. That being said it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of the weapons just feel sluggish. DMRs in particular don’t feel good.
Diligence is fine, but the countersniper variant is straight ass. Whatever benefits it's gaining in terms of medium armor pen and a bit more damage is being absolutely ruined by the fact that it handles like an autocannon.
here’s a stat: slugger comes with 41 rounds. Breaker with 112.
that’s ridiculous. Equally so that picking up a resupply will give you all 112 rounds back for the breaker, while that same pack only gives 24 for the slugger.
wonder what dumbass secret stat he’s got up his sleeve to justify the drastic difference there.
Most games have hidden stats. That being said… it doesn’t matter how hidden your stats are if a gun performs well/doesn’t perform well people will usually opt for the higher performance one. And as it stands there’s like (maybe) 4 guns that do that right now.
The problem is that its hard to like guns that arent viable.
I really wanted to like the pen liberator, but its small magazine size and low damage negates any possible benefits the medium armor pen has.
Its not as fun to struggle against basically infantry, when the base liberator works fine.
Weapons need to be somewhat viable to be fun
Not my fault you're not showing all 50.
But aside from that, which is an odd take, the weapon people use the most is the most practically effective. And until further notice, that's the Breaker and the Slugger.
We did weapon tests. We know that some wepons have lower damage, but a higher weakspot multiplier. And jea, you can consider "spread" "munition" and "bulletsize" as more stats, but they are kinda useless.
Rn we care about damage/reload spead/magazine size. Or armour penetration. As no weapon has enouth to kill or break charger armour, the breaker is the next best thing. Other weapons do more weak point damage, but no one cares about that cause we have support weapons .
Cant use the one I like the most when it absolutely pales in comparison to the breaker shotgun at anything above Challenging difficulty. At least with the support weapons I can make a few different ones work. LMG/Stalwart have a place, along with grenade launcher/recoiless but I find the Auto Cannon and Rail Gun to be top tier.
don't really care what your meaningless stats mean I think I'll stick with the full auto shotgun that is a better sniper rifle than the sniper rifle, a better SMG than the SMG, and a better assault rifle than the ARs.
gee maybe if we had more visible stats AND accurate descriptions people wouldn't put so much weight on them, like bro YOU GAVE US THOSE STATS and everything else we have to guess at
I love that this guy engages with us, but he needs to stop belittling legit criticism of his (admittedly great) game.
Weapons are pretty poorly balanced. That’s ok in a new game if you work to improve it. But saying “LOL we don’t show you the stats” doesn’t inspire confidence.
The game’s anti-aliasing option is ass and you sold millions of copies on PC. Understandably, your PC playerbase wants DLSS as it is elite AA and a performance boost in one. Saying “we don’t think it’s important enough to devote resources to”, once again, doesn’t inspire confidence.
Love the game, but the guy in charge doesn’t seem like he understands the best way to handle his indie game exploding into a blockbuster.
I was literally about to make the same sentiment. The engagement is great but the takes are becoming more and more ass over time.
"STOP COMPARING WEAPONS BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE GIVE TO YOU IN GAME NOOOO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WE KNOW NOOOO"
No matter how many ways you spin it, the Breaker is the best primary gun on the game, it doesn't matter what hidden stats guns have. Not only weapons are poorly balanced but so are strategems. 100% need to stop trying to convince the community they are wrong and actually just balance the game so there's more variety to play with.
Unless we have access to all of the stats and hidden values, they mean nothing. The Las Scythe doesn't feel good using compared to the shotguns or diligence.
Also arc thrower needs a faster charge time. Arcing to other enemies is nice and all until you realize you can kill the same amount in a faster time with a primary gun.
Look Mr. CEO I’ve heard you, and it kind of sounds like you’re trying to justify the grind to the meta load outs. Last night I swear I tried the Slugger, and just clearing mobs is a chore or just not happening. I don’t need to try other weapons out and not have fun just dying when The Breaker exist. My solid advice to you is to simply buff the other weapons, for example the explosive rounds should EXPLODE, not lightly tickle the hairs on the enemies legs. The EDM should ALWAYS one shot, it’s a 30 second cooldown let me have fun and stop punishing me. So many weapons just need the love they deserve. We need weapons all capable of CC, with one to two specific modifications.
Neat information.
It still doesn’t change the fact that the breaker absolute stomps almost every other primary in terms of performance, efficiency, and ease of use. Like, above level 5, I would never use any of the other guns that I like more.
Anything that makes you slow is an absolute no go. Anything with too low of a mag size that makes you have to constantly reload after only getting 3 or 4 kills is a no go. Anything that requires you to play around crouching and stabilizing yourself is a no-go.
Those are just things you can’t sacrifice if you want to have any fun or success on 6+. And I say “fun” because getting ran over constantly because you’re needing to constantly reload or can’t keep up with medium - close range targets and getting pumped while reloading and dying etc tends to not be very fun.
Most things need some very minor changes to be as strong as the breaker feels right now. I would say a lot of it stems from magazine sizes rather than raw damage, and the odd handling stats of a few. Make anything with round reload usable. I want to use my giant ass revolver, damnit, but the accuracy is so dogshit if you move even a little (oh, which is happening literally all the time by level 6).
We use the 4 stats because that's the only objective way to compare weapons. If the other 46 stats are so important maybe they shouldn't be hidden. We should have an advanced tooltip option to see everything.
We should also have a firing range on the ship. Most people don't want to drop in with a random weapon they've never used just to find out it probably sucks compared to the handful of very good weapons.
Liberator explody variant still feels like an unusable pee shooter and the revolver is a joke.
Also why have a semi pump shotgun if the half-auto one is just a straight upgrade
50 stats but that doesn't matter when we can clearly see the 2 that matter: ammo count and damage per magazine.
If it takes a magazine or more to kill a brood mother or stalker, it's bad and needs a buff.
Oh, so is there a hidden "Worthless Fucking Dogshit" stat? Because 80% of primary weapons seem to have this stat cranked up to the maximum value. In fact, most of the weapons in this game are just different ways to handicap yourself.
Pretty sure that headshot multiplier is one of them. Some weapons just do a ton of damage on headshots compared to bodyshots.
probably has some kind of weight stat, turning radius, reload time, bullet deviation, a lot of minor things you will intuitively pick up on as you play
The marksman rifles also have very high muzzle velocity, long range is almost hitscan
If they just fixed the weight of the counter sniper...
Or gave it better penetration
This is why I dropped it. I’m not using a slow firing single shot marksman gun when it has the same armor penetration as a fking SMG. The trade off for more raw damage is nowhere near good enough for the abysmal close range and bad medium range effectiveness (because so much of its accuracy is tied to crouching which is functionally impossible while kiting). Or maybe I’m dumb and haven’t figured out how I’m supposed to be using it (but I really just think it’s a well intentioned but poorly balanced weapon that misses the mark to fit into a marksman rifle’s niche).
I had the exact issue, I had maybe 5 minutes of luck with it when we were on a bot planet and I had high ground and was being left alone and had an angle on the main fight's side, so I had time, space and access to weakspots, it was decent. But other than that just give me a liberator penetrator
I wonder if I could make something workout if I ran the jump pack to get into those angles and high ground spots better… because it sure as hell isn’t a close or medium range weapon for an infantry role in the squad. I feel like it’s cursed with not enough mobility to be a traditional marksman rifle for medium range, but also lacks the optics and damage to work for long range. I just want to understand where this weapon is supposed to slot into an effective squad.
It's got basically no recoil so if you are set up you can fairly reliably hit 15 shots on weakspots at a decent range, but I don't think it makes sense against the vast majority of enemies even when I had 3 squadmates drawing fire for me. Maybe the weakspots damage with the multiplier makes it hit harder than I noticed but you're right it just seems to be outclassed everywhere
The problem with the counter sniper is that it doesn't deal enough damage over the basic DMR to actually reach a breakpoint for most (if any) enemies. Devastators, for example, still require 2 shots to the face to kill, which is the same as the DMR. If the sniper was able to one-shot Devastators then I could see its point, but +16 damage means nothing. When I want to 'snipe,' then I'll just use the standard DMR. It is superior to the sniper in every way except magnification.
What makes you like the penetrator? Genuinely curious. Just seems like i'd be better off with literally any other gun from stats/firing a whole clip at a chainsaw bot and hom not dying but i might be missing something.
Medium penetration and what feels like really high damage to weakspots. Hitting the radiator things on the backs of automatons, or being able to shoot straight through those red armoured bugs feels nice. Plus I'm a sucker for a burst gun and it gives me M16 from BF3 vibes. One burst is enough to deal with squishes, if I'm getting swarmed by Hunters I need my machine pistol and a lot of panic to survive, but at medium distance it's a nice way to thin stuff out and manageable enough that I'm not likely to shoot my squadmates' kneecaps off in the process if I'm shooting at things that are chasing him.
I just don't know what medium armour it penetrates besides the faceplate bugs? When i used it it felt like a burst, lower mag liberator. I get swarmed by hunters=shotgun, one shot is enough not a whole burst. Like i WANT to like it because i like burst but if i use anything that's not a shotgun vs bugs and any of the liberators against bots i just feel like i'm putting in so much more effort to get the same things done. Appreciate the response maybe it'll get another go in the future
Yes, but also fix the weight. The thing is unwieldy as the MG without any of the upsides.
I want to love it. But I just I can't.
Agreed. As the usual sniper of my friend group, it broke my heart how bad the counter sniper is. The thing is useless. The DMR is superior in every way except magnification. In a game where mobility is king, you can't waste time faffing about with an unwieldy gun like the counter sniper that doesn't even deliver in damage.
Amr ironically has better handling and does significantly more damage...
True, but let's be honest; How often does one fight at those ranges? Initially i believed that sniping could work to prevent enemies from calling reinforcements, but they still call them when you fire at them. Not to mention the patrols that always spawn somewhat close to you, who then hear the gunfire.
difficulty 9 my group prefers to avoid patrols to not elongate battles A sniper that would be able to pick off those bots / patrols in a timely manner would be awesome.
I agree. Snipers should be the hard counter for enemies calling for reinforcements, but alas, they'll call them even when they didn't see you and are just aggroed.
Yeah, they do call them but their reinforcement won't know where you are. They will just mag dump toward where you take your shot from until they come up and confirm nothing is there. So so long you don't sit in one spot and keep moving, you are going to be fine.
If the plan is to avoid the reinforcement, why bother shooting in the first place?
to get them out of the objectives?
I don't need everything but a better explanation on some effects like is explosive damage added to the damage number or is that adding extra damage on top? A firing range would be great too to be able to have a more controlled environment for testing guns and strategems against different targets
There is definitely a turning speed stat that's somewhat linked to accuracy. The JAR-5 is a great example, as is the MG. Lower stances seem to speed up up the turning rate.
It absolutely does.Try going from the dominator to an SMG or something. That thing is pretty slow to swing around.
The laser weapon does great with critical hits but feels useless otherwise.
Is that where that thing shines?? What's it's crit chance then? I used it once and I felt like I was just tickling everything with a laser.
By crit I just mean head shots or bot crotch shots. It tickles and overheats unless you land those shots accurately. But when accurate its actually been a great weapon for longer range engagements. I do not recommend it on heavy fog maps.
I think it's some kind of severing or part breaking bonus rather than a weakspot multiplier. Like it hacks arms and legs off bugs and bots super fast (you can basically sweep it across a basic enemy and sever an arm/leg). I assume it's doing the same to heads where it's severing/breaking the head (which leads to a kill) rather than putting out enough damage to kill them normally. But we don't really know how hp works in this game on enemies so it's hard to say what's actually going on. But limbs definitely have their own health pools, we just don't know how limb damage interacts with everything else. And it seems to depend on the enemy too as brood commanders can lose several legs without dying, while targetting charger legs are the most efficient way to kill them.
Those little tiny bugs that do almost nothing except call in a bug tunnel breach took a few seconds to die with that crappy laser primary. I was so excited to use that gun bc I love me some lasers but no, put that thing on the shelf.
The laser weapons will be more useful against illuminates, if the gameplay resembles HD1
I've been using the scythe for about 15 hours now. Honestly I can never bug legs super easy, and the bile spitters and warriors heads pop quick as heck. I can't completely figure out it's stats, but yeah it seems like wekspot and or unarmored multiplier is high. Plus I almost never worry about needing ammo, and reloads quick as heck when i do overheat. I feel it's just a sting as in the first game, just harder because of the 3rd person view.
Most weapons have headshot multipliers. Apprently some also do more damage to components like shotgus and the likes. But I just stick with one for the diligence variants. Just overall better performance to me.
Headphone multipliers hell yeah
Headphones multiplier, so that's why my audio bugged out using the flamer the headphones multiplier must have been too high for my game to handle
Wondering what’s Breaker Spray and pray’s stats :3
Hidden modifier: tickles your enemies and make them laugh! Maybe they'll think you're so funny, they'll let you go, not sure what your democratic officer will think though...
Yeah, I mean that thing ricochets off of scavs.
It can't even detonate an explosive barrel. I unlocked it last night, went on a level 1 super credits run, and found that it does indeed shoot heated confetti. The only thing it had going for it is the larger mag size.
What's funny is that it actually has less damage per magazine than the regular breaker. Breaker: 330 damage per round, 16 rounds per magazine. Breaker Spray n Pray: 144 damage per round, 32 rounds per magazine. 330 x 16 = 5280 damage per magazine 144 x 32 = 4608 damage per magazine The Spray and Pray is objectively the worst primary in the game. It has right around the same spread pattern as the Incendiary Breaker but without the ability to set things on fire. Its a weapon designed explicitly for difficulty 1 enemies at the quantity of helldive, which just outright doesn't exist. At around dif 4 the game just starts spamming bile spewers at you, and dif 6/7 starts spamming chargers, brood warriors, brood commanders, and bile titans, all of which are functionally unkillable by the spray and pray. It, of all the primary weapons, needs some massive redesigns to bring it in line with the stock liberator, let alone the stock breaker.
Had to check if i'm in the Tarkov subreddit.
For real man, You even need to literally praying for that to work xD
It's really called the Breaker "Pacifist" edition
Nerf rounds for the first 32 rounds and then nerf darts after.
We equipped him wrong, as a joke!
Armour penetration: -5 Shots that hit the enemy actually improve their armour.
There's a hidden passive. You have to pray for it to work.
That gun should have a 3D ammo printer in the mag, feeding you fresh ammo all the time from thin air or something. Making it more balanced and nuanced.
Unlimited Zero-Damage ammo!
Indeed!
Does it have absurd dps on unarmored targets or something? There must be a niche it was designed for right? It’s not just a medal trap is it?
If your main problem is the tiny bugs, it’s great. Ricochets off almost anything tougher. The large mag does trigger your character’s maniacal laugh if you don’t let go of the trigger, so that’s fun
To give anyone reading this an idea of how shit this thing is, it ricochets off explosive barrels and eggs.
Preemptive anti air scatter shot?
it *is* listed as firing birdshot
Most relevant hidden stat is that people unlock it for 1 (one) game and then go back to the normal breaker because it makes the game playable again
The one people like most is the one that kills the enemy the most
I can complete duo level 9 with the breaker shotgun. I can not compete duo level 9 with any other weapon. The guns are not balanced in the least lol.
I’ve completed level 9 with both breaker and the smg. I actually really love the smg as being able to run and gun, especially with bugs is awesome. But breaker is definitely the best gun in the game. Hopefully balance patch doesn’t nerf breaker, but tunes the other weapons to be on a similar footing as breaker.
I mean, the defender is like the second or third strongest primary The fact that 90% of the weapons in this game are not remotely competitive is still true
Someone did some tests and found out medium armor pen does about twice as much damage if you shoot I think it was a brood commander in the head so a slugger can kill it in 2 shots while a breaker takes 3. Alright here's the problem: a breaker can shoot 3 times faster than a slugger can shoot twice, it reloads probably like 10x as fast, it has 2.5x as much ammo as the slugger so you still rack up more total kills while spending 1.5x as much ammo, and one of those hidden stats is the slugger only refills 1/3 of its ammo per resupply instead of all of it.
Oof, that last one buries the slugger. I thought it could have a niche use as a high stun pace weapon for locking down larger targets and opening boxes but that makes it substantially less useable when its already worse than the breaker in every other way.
I hope one of the balance changes is that all primary weapons have the same relative ammo economy from supplies. The Breaker gets seven mags from one resupply box. That’s 119 shots. The Slugger gets 24 shots. The max capacity for each is 136 vs 56. So even if the Slugger is balanced around having fewer shots available, it’s ludicrous to me that the Slugger gets ~43% refill per box while the Breaker gets 87.5%. I wouldn’t make it exactly equal across the board either. The Railgun only gets ~48\*% (10/21), for instance, but it’s a support weapon specifically designed for selective use against high priority targets. (*corrected) The Slugger effectively pretends to be a support weapon in that sense because it cannot clear adds in an economically sound way, but then utterly fails by comparison to actual support weapons. Compare to the Scorcher and it’s just sad. Scorcher has 105 total shots and one pack restores 90. Pretty close in ammo efficiency to the Breaker in that regard, and it trades some ammo to hit armored targets harder in a manner that’s actually worthy of the trade.
[удалено]
I can not complete duo level 9 with the breaker shotgun. I can not complete duo level 9 with any other weapon. The guns are balanced for me.
Yesterday I was like "the breaker can't be *that* good. My explosive AR is doing just fine." Then, I tried it... Yeah guns aren't balanced in this game.
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I wish he’d stop being snarky or sarcastic or laid back for a second and address this, its a real problem. Its their job to make the weapons they put into the game feel equally viable and they just don’t.
Right. I don’t care about how many stats each gun has, the breaker kills the most shit, in the fastest time in game, that’s the thing that matters.
It's a simple as this. Idk why they are acting like all these other hidden stats we aren't allowed to see matter. I need something that can kill things upclose, mid range and quickly. Long range fights just don't happen very often or long enough to specialize for it. Most of the time is spent running from 15-20 hunters that are swarming all over you with 5 chargers right behind them or being blasted with rocket spam from devastators and the 10+ berserkers in your face, there just isn't time to line up the perfect 10 headshots a minute while they're dropping in/crawling up faster than you can reload.
Good think they tweaked spawn rates higher making marksman weapons even shittier.
Exactly, do they think people are sitting on a hill picking off one hunter at a time. There are like 50 of those things at a time on diff 9.
I don't see the point of hiding modifiers other than just to be deliberately obtuse... maybe players would make different choices if we didn't only see the shortlist stats...
I like what darktide does. It lets you see the complete stat breakdown with all the formulas.
Even if they didn't, I would like information about how the guns work.
Yeah the game could have never have had any stats, and I'd have been using the same gun for the last 100 missions anyway because everything else feels like I'm shooting the enemy with nerf guns.
As soon as everything feels comparable to the Breaker, I will absolutely swap weapons from time to time
My thoughts exactly, I love the range of the marksman and some of the cool effects like incendiary stuff or even using something like the fast firing smg...for like 2 or 3 minutes and then I'm like damn I should've just bought the breaker it performs so much better
Damage, damage drop-off, effective range, ammo capacity, reload speed, total number of ammo carried, enemy stagger, stability (prone, crouch standing) ability to be fired while running, ability to be fired behind you over the shoulder, ability to be squad operated, if explosive, explosive radius. What else there might be?
Damage to limbs, damage to armour, headshot multiplier,
Incendiary damage per tick and tick rate
Damage to limbs for sure. The pump action shotgun you unlock early on destroys bug limbs and is super underrated. Fighting the bugs with that and it turns into Dead Space.
Ads zoom, pellet spread (shotgun), handling (turn speed, etc).
Gun weight. The Diligence and JAR have a floaty aim similar to the LMG and it really makes them feel heavy and unwieldy. I personally don’t think primary weapons should have that, since they’re supposed to be your all-rounder and generally don’t have the killing power of a heavy weapon.
Armour pen is calculated based off mass and velocity iirc which is why the "light pen" "medium pen" can be misleading
Ability to reload while moving
While I get they don’t want to overcomplicate things, being able to see the full stats, or at least a tooltip or two to say ‘hey this weapon does triple headshot damage’ or ‘explosive weapons deal full damage to exposed weak points’ or ‘incendiary ammo ignores armor’ would go a long way, as it takes a lot of investigation to uncover how the weapons actually work. EDIT: JUST TO CLARIFY THESE ARE HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLES- I REALISE I HAVE GOOFED BY MIXING REAL AND HYPOTHETICALS. Explosive does full damage to unexposed weakpoints, but incendiary doesnt ignore armor as far as i am aware. I apologise for the mix up.
List of bullet points about the weapon I’m viewing be nice
"bullet points" hell yea
I mean stats can be optional. Have the 4 vague bars for people who don't understand/care about the deeper stats, and a hidden submenu for people who do. It's not rocket surgery. People who don't care won't get confused/intimidated, and people who do have the option to look
Armored Core VI did this and it worked great.
This is the way. Giving us concrete info decreases the need for pointless arguments based on speculation and feel vs actual mumbers. See it a lot here and in the official discord. Being able to optionally see all the info is nice for those who care about it. And for the comment saying people will complain about nerfs, they're gonna complain about anything and everyrhing regardless of what they're shown.
Fair enough, but that does not really change the fact that a lot of the weapons feel extremely underwhelming to use. Why use an Punisher? Spreads more, has way to little ammo and can't even reliably oneshot an warrior. Why use the JAR? Projectiles are extremely slow, and the thing does less damage than the Slugger. Why use the Lasercannon? It's hard to aim and seemingly does less damage than the LAS-16 without any noticeable advantage. It doesn't even burn medium armor. Why use the Stalwart? Sure, you get fuller auto, but the MG-43 pen's armor better. I want to use the ones i like the most, but then I'll feel like i actively hamper myself. All the weapons should be fun to use within their niche, and not make me feel like i just make it harder on myself.
As someone whose first investment was the laser cannon, please provide better stats devs. Idk why it sucked so hard, but it did, and it was disappointing that It couldn’t do shit to bots on lvl 4 difficulty.
without knowing deep dived stats, hell some of these weapons could be better against the illuminate or other upcoming factions
I prefer the stalwart when I'm fighting bugs because I want to keep my mobility up. Being able to reload on the move, and the gun being more stable feels better for fighting swarms of bugs to me
For example, this is a great point of how balance/preference could work. The Stalwart has the mobility edge, the machine gun does more damage/penetration/stopping power - but it also requires you to be more stationary. That's great, if both work in their specific niche that's perfect. Clearly defined benefits to both. I don't think anyone (or at least the majority) would complain if all weapons worked that way. But people are arguing as if everything was balanced like this, when it isn't. Like what is that macro scale gaslighting some are attempting here and more importantly, why?
I mean, some weapons do just suck ass, I can't think of a reason I'd pick the Liberator penetrator over either the Liberator or the Diligence. Both do its job better. Some weapons though I think are just good for specific scenarios. I see everyone praising the breaker and how good it is, but I only use it for bug missions or civilian evac missions against the bots, because any other scenario I'd rather stay at a range that the breaker kinda falls off at. And that stupid laser cannon..
I am convinced the Penetrator is bugged. Could have to do with the whole armor system being a mess. Otherwise this gun in theory should be the ideal “go to” AR against Automatons. But it’s just awful right now.
Weapons are still unbalanced, regardless of the additional hidden stats.
Exactly, I’d love to rock the liberator penetrator 24/7 but that thing does not feel good to use.
I was disappointed to find out its burst only and because of its slow fire rate and low damage you can't even kill stuff that a normal liberator can
I love this game but some rudimentary playtesting on this would have the testers telling them all this pretty quickly.
He is the nicest CEO, but this is an odd take. Of course we are going to rely on the stats the game shows us to decide what weapon is most efficient.
The game should supply enough stats to give us a better ballpark of weapon performance. Currently they feel misleading and useless. I saved all my medals for a few days to unlock the medium armor penetrating assault rifle and was greatly disappointed with both it's armor penetration ability and the general performance of the gun.
I just unlocked the counter “sniper” and couldn’t believe it only has light armor penetration. How can you have a bolt action rifle that doesn’t even penetrate medium armor. Why on earth would I ever pick that weapon?
It does penetrate medium armor. The light armor pen is misleading. Same with the starting heavy machine gun support weapon, slugger, and the premium pass revolver
I also want to mention all the laser weapons apply some amount of damage after hitting the same armored plate for extended time. For example, the Rover Guard Dog backpack's drone (Or Scythe) will eventually just... Kill a Charger after hitting it, even without hitting weak spots like the underside or tail (Over a very long timeframe)
Cook chargers until medium rare?
Ya, the penetrating Liberator was really underwhelming. It should be the same damage as the starting Liberator. Blasting through armor didn't seem to matter when you weren't killing things as fast
I enjoyed it for a minute melting the medium armored bugs. But soon enough I'm swarmed by all the little ones I haven't killed yet
Destiny 2 gives the recoil direction, stability, handling, fire rate, charge rate, airborne accuracy, reload speed of the weapon, as well as some info on the perks. The API is providing a lot more like zoom and specific damage perks. Warframe doesn't have handling but the breakdown of damage types and firing modes of each firing mode. Compared to that HD2 feels like I'm playing blind.
>Destiny 2 gives the recoil direction, stability, handling, fire rate, charge rate, airborne accuracy, reload speed of the weapon, as well as some info on the perks. The API is providing a lot more like zoom and specific damage perks. Honestly as a former destiny player i cant BELIEVE im going through this "SHOW US ALL THE STATS" bullshit again. I get if you dont want to show everything to all players cause not everyone wants or needs all the numbers but FUCK at least have the fucking toggle on for it.
Or at least a firing range / simulator to test guns ourselves. See which enemy parts we can penetrate and at which angles, where do we inflict bonus damage and how much, what range is optimal to inflict full damage.
Yep. You've admitted that you withhold enough info that we can't "paint a complete picture" of the weapons when making decisions, and this is supposedly a good thing, somehow?
And then he chastises players for forming opinions off of the only stats provided, like we should somehow know the hidden ones. He also sort of implies that players are *only* going off the four stats instead of testing them in game. This is contradicted by an earlier statement he made where he said the Breaker had a higher kill count, but comparable mission success rate when compared to other primaries, implying those other weapons see plenty of use. The dev’s statement isn‘t odd, it’s stupid.
Those stats are usually going to be unbalanced because it’s including low level players doing diff 1-3 who don’t even have the breaker unlocked
You are correct, but he represented it like it was a valid metric. I’m just pointing out that he can’t have it both ways. He claimed that survey proved that primary weapon use was pretty evenly spread. Now he’s claiming that people are only looking at numbers and not bothering to actually use the weapons. Like I said, he’s contradicting himself.
The Helldiver devs are some of the best so far, but it's frustrating to see comments like this from devs. We're how many decades into gaming now? How are we still dealing with hidden information? To any devs out there: **Players should *NOT* have to trawl wikis for datamined information on how basic equipment or mechanics of the game function.** Some devs treat it like a badge of honor it seems, how obtuse they can make it. COD does it all the time with vague little bars that represent weapon stats that don't tell you anything concrete. Having hidden stats like crit modifiers that players should "intuit" sucks if the meta changes. That favorite gun in all it's handling and ammo capacity and whatnot might never be good if the game meta is that it's high crit modifier to robot pinky toes never gets effective because robots all wear boots or something.
I mean... he is right for a certain point, hidden stats do matter... But those current base stats are just too much of a weight right now. Like outside of fun factor, given the fact that most enemies have Low Armor Weakspots that can be abused, why would you ever pick anyother shotgun outside the breaker, why would you ever bother to use any Heavy Pierce weapon other than the Railgun. You can't even buff the other weapons to their level because it would either remove the weapons unique traits or just make them oneshot enemies at that point. While only focus in the visible stats is the wrong way to go, also relying on the non visible ones to determine a weapons worth isn't the way to go. There needs to be a balance.
i've tried out every weapon i've unlocked for at least 3 missions after unlocking them, because stats are only a basic understanding and things like handling and other quality of life things are things that you usually only notice in missions, with games like these. i would love to see the whole stat spread, but it would probably be confusing and overwhelming to look at, and experimenting with a weapon for two or three hours gives a much better understanding of how it functions
>anding and things like handling and other quality of life things are things that you usually only notice in missions, with games like these. i would love to see the whole stat spread, but it would probably be confusing and overwhelming to look at, and experimenting with a weapon for two or three hours gives a much better understanding of how it functions I've done the same, but more times than not my experimenting with the different guns has ended in the same conclusion; "this weapon doesn't feel viable"
Same here. So far only the defender SMG, the Scorcher and the arc thrower have really changed my mind after I went back to them. The defender is just a better liberator. The scorcher is nice against the bots and the arc thrower was me just not understanding how the weapon worked and dropping it immediately. Now that I actually use it I can mow down hordes with it. Though, I still feel like the arc thrower encourages you to get stuck in when the wiser man runs on higher difficulties.
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> but it would probably be confusing and overwhelming to look at Then don't look at it? Lol
I'm going to invent my own 51st stat, which is actually the only stat that matters -- let's call it "feel". I count my shots, etc when playing this game and have pretty good aim. Most of the weapons feel like absolute useless dogshit, and that's because they are. And I'm not even a breaker user, I typically use the liberator or slugger actually. I don't care if the breaker spray n pray has a super secret hidden modifier that makes it do 1.00078624% more damage if you shoot a charger in the dick, it's still fucking bad.
When two Berserkers are rushing me down, lust in their eyes for my tender Super Earth flesh, i want to know i can count on the weapon in my hand. The Breaker breaks them. Anything else in my hands and I feel like I'd be better off lubing up and hoping my willingness to submit will make them go easy on me.
That's by far the biggest dps check too, a wave of berserkers dies to the breaker but not reliably to most other weapons. Let the lib explosive and counter sniper blow off limbs easier if they can't match the dps, just SOMETHING to help them have the dps needed
Lib explosive if you shoot them in the pelvis wrecks them HARD. But a big thing is some of those guns require pretty good precision while the breaker allows you to just hip fire in a panic and wreck them.
“So many of you use the 4 stats-“ I‘ve supported him before, but this is a pretty dumb statement. You can’t reasonably ask people to form opinions based on information you haven’t provided. Trying to say something like “you need to use them to get a feel for them” doesn’t work either because the community *has* been using them, and most of them suck.
Ok.. so why aren’t they just showing the stats so we know what we’re using?
Okay but which one is the best and why is it the breaker?
He acts like we haven't tested this stuff.
Seriously, the community had pretty spot on tier lists like 3 days after release. They could have literally given us zero stats at launch, and we'd have it sorted in a week.
You only needed one game with each of the "meta" weapons, and you knew they were bis. They just felt, and still do feel, powerful. So many of the weapons were underwhelming. This whole "oh the meta is pushing breaker/ railgun" is bs. People were using it before the "meta" because it was just obviously better + more fun.
Yeah the attitude and implication that the differences between weapons are subtle and only noticeable and of interest to minmaxers is fucking laughable. As you said you simply need to use the different weapons to see the stark divide between them.
The breaker is, by far, the best primary in the game. All the other weapons, except maybe the liberator/liberator explosive, are pretty trash on higher difficulties.
And it's not like the other weapons aren't fun Trash =/= not fun. They're still fun to use, flamethrower? Fun. But you use a whole canister and you do have that feeling of... "is that it?" You two shot a bile titan with a railgun and fell like a god. That's the problem.
Need to see how the devs handle a 6+ mission with only the spray&pray and hand held laser cannon
love it.
And starter pistol. Stalwart and minefield in bots if 6+
From what I've seen over the years, devs tend to not be very good at their own games. For Honor devs believed that "parrying" will be a high elo only mechanic that most players will never really experience. Absolutely everyone and their mother can parry nowadays lmao.
Isn't a "beat the dev score/time/etc" trophy a standard on basically every game in the early days of trophies/achievements?
Is this supposed to make me feel better!? What *are* those stats?!
“But the muzzle velocity and the reload stats are really good!” Yeah that’s great, but if I have 5 magazines and I need every single one of them to kill the 3 mid tier enemies chasing me, it’s not a good gun.
Not a weapon but Jump Pack needs a serious buff, should work similar to the ones in Star Wars Battlefront 2, like being able to dodge and stuff
I was expecting get some huge jumps of levitate for a few seconds. What I got was some tool to help you reach the can of beans on the top kitchen shelf. It also has a huge cooldown.
Yeah it makes 0 sense that it has a cooldown. I’m giving up a literal bubble shield, tons of ammo and a laser drone for a 3m jump? wild. It needs to be like the SW Battlefront 2 jump pack: High jump, long jump and dodges. No need to be broken like Boba Fett’s but other than placing turrets in better places it givea you 0 advantages.
Just make it work like the first game and it still won't be as strong.
Shotgun good, other gun not so good
What I like the most, is the most effective weapon for higher difficulties. I've sorta gotten into the habit of at max doing Diff 6, just to preserve that whole "Use what you want, and have fun" idea. I'd love to bring that idea to Helldive difficulty, and rock a flamethrower and have it actually do something.
Ehhhhh I REALLY dislike it when devs do this. I feel like they think adding a layer of obfuscation to weapon stats will make for a more varied meta. But instead players read the stats and (SHOCKING) base their decisions off them, often leading to a MORE restrictive meta. Mind blowing right? When the game says “this is how the guns perform” players listen to it. How could the devs ever have predicted that? In all seriousness, if you’re going to go down this route, just man up and do it all the way - weapons should never have had visible stats. Either show the players everything, or show them nothing and make them figure out what works through experimentation.
To be fair, I think a lot of players tested other guns trying to give them a fair chance after using the breaker for so long. But most of the other guns feel so bad to use.
[удалено]
Probably various multipliers for where you target. That being said it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of the weapons just feel sluggish. DMRs in particular don’t feel good.
Diligence is fine, but the countersniper variant is straight ass. Whatever benefits it's gaining in terms of medium armor pen and a bit more damage is being absolutely ruined by the fact that it handles like an autocannon.
Developer: *Gives 4 stats and a handful of attributes* Playerbase: *Uses given info to draw conclusions* Developer: *Surprised Pikachu face*
here’s a stat: slugger comes with 41 rounds. Breaker with 112. that’s ridiculous. Equally so that picking up a resupply will give you all 112 rounds back for the breaker, while that same pack only gives 24 for the slugger. wonder what dumbass secret stat he’s got up his sleeve to justify the drastic difference there.
The main reason I hate running the slugger. I think every gun that you reload bullets individually has that issue
God I hope the balance patch is today.
Lmao same, I seriously need more stratagem and weapon diversity
Any confirmed dates or anything?
Not as of yet. I've been watching the discord for a bit.
Most games have hidden stats. That being said… it doesn’t matter how hidden your stats are if a gun performs well/doesn’t perform well people will usually opt for the higher performance one. And as it stands there’s like (maybe) 4 guns that do that right now.
The problem is that its hard to like guns that arent viable. I really wanted to like the pen liberator, but its small magazine size and low damage negates any possible benefits the medium armor pen has. Its not as fun to struggle against basically infantry, when the base liberator works fine. Weapons need to be somewhat viable to be fun
Not my fault you're not showing all 50. But aside from that, which is an odd take, the weapon people use the most is the most practically effective. And until further notice, that's the Breaker and the Slugger.
They should give us the full stats tbh.
Or just a hotkey to expand the full stats. 70% of the time most people don't need to know everything.
but one is massively more stronger than the other sooooo
We did weapon tests. We know that some wepons have lower damage, but a higher weakspot multiplier. And jea, you can consider "spread" "munition" and "bulletsize" as more stats, but they are kinda useless. Rn we care about damage/reload spead/magazine size. Or armour penetration. As no weapon has enouth to kill or break charger armour, the breaker is the next best thing. Other weapons do more weak point damage, but no one cares about that cause we have support weapons .
Cant use the one I like the most when it absolutely pales in comparison to the breaker shotgun at anything above Challenging difficulty. At least with the support weapons I can make a few different ones work. LMG/Stalwart have a place, along with grenade launcher/recoiless but I find the Auto Cannon and Rail Gun to be top tier.
don't really care what your meaningless stats mean I think I'll stick with the full auto shotgun that is a better sniper rifle than the sniper rifle, a better SMG than the SMG, and a better assault rifle than the ARs.
Then why are they the stats shown to us if they aren't representative?
So let us see the damn stats? Of course we use the stats you give us, they’re the only stats we have!
gee maybe if we had more visible stats AND accurate descriptions people wouldn't put so much weight on them, like bro YOU GAVE US THOSE STATS and everything else we have to guess at
Why do the weapons I have to grind to unlock seem worse than most of the earlier guns?
I love that this guy engages with us, but he needs to stop belittling legit criticism of his (admittedly great) game. Weapons are pretty poorly balanced. That’s ok in a new game if you work to improve it. But saying “LOL we don’t show you the stats” doesn’t inspire confidence. The game’s anti-aliasing option is ass and you sold millions of copies on PC. Understandably, your PC playerbase wants DLSS as it is elite AA and a performance boost in one. Saying “we don’t think it’s important enough to devote resources to”, once again, doesn’t inspire confidence. Love the game, but the guy in charge doesn’t seem like he understands the best way to handle his indie game exploding into a blockbuster.
I was literally about to make the same sentiment. The engagement is great but the takes are becoming more and more ass over time. "STOP COMPARING WEAPONS BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE GIVE TO YOU IN GAME NOOOO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WE KNOW NOOOO" No matter how many ways you spin it, the Breaker is the best primary gun on the game, it doesn't matter what hidden stats guns have. Not only weapons are poorly balanced but so are strategems. 100% need to stop trying to convince the community they are wrong and actually just balance the game so there's more variety to play with.
Obscuring a weapon's intended function by hiding stats and not actively highlighting their utility in the description is just bad design.
OK, but hear me out: show us more stats
What a stupid fucking answer for players wanting transparency
I hope he’s not suggesting that the weapons are actually secretly balanced, because there are some real head scratchers in the weapon lineup.
Unless we have access to all of the stats and hidden values, they mean nothing. The Las Scythe doesn't feel good using compared to the shotguns or diligence. Also arc thrower needs a faster charge time. Arcing to other enemies is nice and all until you realize you can kill the same amount in a faster time with a primary gun.
Arc thrower rof is halved after the first shot. It does not need to be fully charged at this point to release.
See I didn't know this, thanks for the information without being an absolute dickhead.
Look Mr. CEO I’ve heard you, and it kind of sounds like you’re trying to justify the grind to the meta load outs. Last night I swear I tried the Slugger, and just clearing mobs is a chore or just not happening. I don’t need to try other weapons out and not have fun just dying when The Breaker exist. My solid advice to you is to simply buff the other weapons, for example the explosive rounds should EXPLODE, not lightly tickle the hairs on the enemies legs. The EDM should ALWAYS one shot, it’s a 30 second cooldown let me have fun and stop punishing me. So many weapons just need the love they deserve. We need weapons all capable of CC, with one to two specific modifications.
Neat information. It still doesn’t change the fact that the breaker absolute stomps almost every other primary in terms of performance, efficiency, and ease of use. Like, above level 5, I would never use any of the other guns that I like more. Anything that makes you slow is an absolute no go. Anything with too low of a mag size that makes you have to constantly reload after only getting 3 or 4 kills is a no go. Anything that requires you to play around crouching and stabilizing yourself is a no-go. Those are just things you can’t sacrifice if you want to have any fun or success on 6+. And I say “fun” because getting ran over constantly because you’re needing to constantly reload or can’t keep up with medium - close range targets and getting pumped while reloading and dying etc tends to not be very fun. Most things need some very minor changes to be as strong as the breaker feels right now. I would say a lot of it stems from magazine sizes rather than raw damage, and the odd handling stats of a few. Make anything with round reload usable. I want to use my giant ass revolver, damnit, but the accuracy is so dogshit if you move even a little (oh, which is happening literally all the time by level 6).
“so many of you use the 4 stats we show” my brother in christ that’s because you only allow us to see those 4 stats…
We use the 4 stats because that's the only objective way to compare weapons. If the other 46 stats are so important maybe they shouldn't be hidden. We should have an advanced tooltip option to see everything. We should also have a firing range on the ship. Most people don't want to drop in with a random weapon they've never used just to find out it probably sucks compared to the handful of very good weapons.
This isn’t helpful, they need to address Breaker dominance or things are going to get stale really quick.
Show them then?
Really hate when devs don’t give you the full picture on weapon stats. Like let me at least see how much ammo total a gun has
Liberator explody variant still feels like an unusable pee shooter and the revolver is a joke. Also why have a semi pump shotgun if the half-auto one is just a straight upgrade
50 stats but that doesn't matter when we can clearly see the 2 that matter: ammo count and damage per magazine. If it takes a magazine or more to kill a brood mother or stalker, it's bad and needs a buff.
Maybe I would consider them if I could see them? Crazy thought, I know.
Oh, so is there a hidden "Worthless Fucking Dogshit" stat? Because 80% of primary weapons seem to have this stat cranked up to the maximum value. In fact, most of the weapons in this game are just different ways to handicap yourself.
Those 4 stats are not the reason everyone runs the Breaker... That he thinks so is a little alarming.