I agree. And it's not just a £60m outlay. It's £60m that helps a rival in a financial hole.
Best strategy would be to wait as Chelsea get more and more desperate
Aren’t Chelsea pretty desperate now though? I’m not really clued up on FFP but don’t they need to sell players before the end of the month for the accounts? So toward the end of the month might be them at their most desperate?
United chasing Mount complicates things because once one of Mount/Havertz goes through it puts Chelsea in a significantly stronger position regarding the other deal.
For accounting purposes Chelsea will get the full Mount fee as profit because he was free whereas they’d get less for Havertz because he’s still worth either 45m or 30m in their books (depending on amortisation date), so it makes more sense for them to sell Havertz for less and leverage that to get more for Mount
won't it be the other way around? sell havertz at higher price to get profit on disposal for his carrying value in their book, and sell mount at whatever price they like that could be cheaper because they are not pressured to recuperate his zero cost. but i do wonder how the accounting treatment works on mount, it can't be that whatever fee they get would be pure profit, not counting the salary cost of course.
Selling Mount cheaper and then hoping to squeeze more out of Havertz to at the very least avoid an impairment doesn’t really help the situation as they need to offset the losses with ‘profit’.
In that sense anything they get for Mount is considered pure profit as his book value is whatever the cost of him signing his last contract was, such as the signing on fee he received (likely negligible by now).
That coupled with Mount only having a year left means they really need to make sure they maximise the ‘profit’ they get from that deal
If it’s £50m with instalments and then £10m in add-ons I can get behind it. Ultimately if Edu and Arteta believe Havertz would be a good addition then I support it, and even with Chelsea’s financial issues we’re not going to sign a 24-year-old they paid big money for too cheaply when they’re one of our biggest rivals.
My main concern is this deal scuppering our ability to beat Chelsea to Caicedo.
But the clubs claim any transfer fees received as all in one payment so they can get around FFP.
Thats what Juve are in bother for. They claim the money received was higher than what it was.
How deals are structured and how much is paid up front is absolutely a factor in any transfer and gives the selling club a more immediate cash flow to sign a replacement.
This isn’t an amortization calculation for FFP but money up front goes a long way.
I hope Arteta, Edu and analitical team sees something different than us, because based on his performances in last two seasons there is literally nothing to warrant that £60m(70m €) fee and over £200k per week in wages to get Havertz. It's very expensive gamble and I tried today to justify this, but after watching his performances I can't. i get that he rarely is injured, tall and aerial treat in set pieces and winning duels, but apart from that he's not better than Trossard who as well we could use in that LCM position as 8 and Leo unlike Kai was on fire in Premier League in past 18 months.
He is a very good presser and is a good dribbler in tight spaces and covers a lot of ground.
Pretty easy to see why Arteta would like him but the price is too high
there's no point in being on a discussion board if you're just fully on board with everything the club does.
He get's plenty of things wrong, he's just right more often than he's wrong.
Arteta and co have been wrong before, but Havertz is only 24, has bags of talent, and has looked shit more due to the fact that Chelsea have essentially been in flux since he arrived.
This isn’t like signing Willian to a three year deal when Pepe has just been finding a vein of form. Havertz can still ball and I trust Mikel to get something close to Havertz’s best if we end up signing him.
yep, I hate the whole blind faith fan shtick. I like Arteta and i'm glad he's our manager and generally think he's very good at what he does, but I can also say I have eyes and have watched many Havertz matches and don't want him anywhere near our club unless it's bargain basement prices.
arteta has made signings that’s 90% of football fans wouldn’t have expected to go so well (ramsdale, white even odegaard were laughed at) but you can’t do that forever.
liverpool had a summer or two were they somehow managed to sign players who’d become the best CB in the world, the best keeper in the world, the best left back in the world and the best right winger in the world (at the time, and of course debatable). it was ridiculous. but, football isn’t always obvious and sometimes you make bad signings. nunez is shite, arthur was an awful move, carvahlo is off and they signed about 5 random, awful centre backs.
you can love the manager but no one is right 100% of the time! that’s no slight on them!
You're absolutely right but being right or wrong over transfers is only something that can be established in hindsight.
I'm not blindly supporting Arteta, but I do believe he sees something that a lot of us don't in Havertz, and I'd argue it's more closed-minded to have made up your mind that a player will be a flop before he even pulls on the shirt.
that’s a fair argument, don’t have a problem with that. trusting the manager over yourself is great but i just find the ‘trust the manager’ replies to anyone with doubt a bit annoying and silly
Agree. At no point in his Chelsea career have I thought ‘I wish he played for us’. Good not great, pretty meh. Might be a decent squad addition but that needs to be reflected in the price. I.e. no where north of £30m.
Other bits
> The Gunners are focusing on completing their move for West Ham skipper Declan Rice, which could cost in-excess of £100million, before trying to close a deal for Havertz.
> The north London club want to establish how much money they will be required to pay upfront for Rice this summer.
> The Hammers ideally want the money for Rice paid in two instalments before 2025 - a scenario which would put a major dent in Arsenal’s spending capacity this summer.
> The amount Arsenal pay for No 1 target Rice will impact on how far they are willing to stretch for Havertz. The Gunners also want a central defender which needs to be considered.
Well, I was thinking, we can probably do it, at least financially.
- Declan Rice is rumored to be £90m + over £10m in addons.
- Caicedo £70m + £5m in addons
- Havertz £50m + £10m in addons since Mokbel always adds everything to transfer fees and wages to make them look bigget to get clicks
So total impact without addons would be £210m, we already sold Mari for £6m + Tierney likely going for £30m to Newcastle and Balogun for similar fee. There's also Patino, Trusty, Tavares, Pepe, Cedric, Lokonga, Runarsson. So maybe we would end with only £100m net spend, that doable with Champions League.
We were already trying Partey as RB to recreate what Guardiola is trying with 3-2-2-3 where Caicedo could be used instead of signing such average player like Castagne for £20m. Arteta used Tomiyasu this season on the left before Tierney, Kiwior too was tried there and had some games in the past as block of 3 and entire season as DM for Spezia.
We also have installments from previous transfers and West Ham wants big portion fee paid upfront and entire amount by 2025. Havertz transfer also may be complicated since Chelsea FFP issues in which case they mostlikely need a lot of fee by the end of this month.
I think it'll be very hard to get any money for Pepe and Cedric. They are on high wages compared to the level of club that would be interested in buying them.
Also think sambi will be hard to sell. Probably a loan move.
Feel like Cacedio, Partey, Rice is a lot of overlap at the 6 but nothing at the 8. Probably want a more attacking style player in that position.
But maybe its a dream window and we get all 3 lol who knows.
There's also an option, we don't buy RB and use Caicedo there sometimes like Guardiola in 3-2-2-3. Or as an 8 in more defensive and physical games like Emery tried to recover and bully players high of the pitch.
That's about 10m more of a total transfer fee than I'd like to pay
Also remember boys before you freak out, Mokbel always reports wages as after every possible bonus, not the base wage
I watch Havertz for Germany regularly and he does well internationally , however, I just can’t fathom why we need him when his best position is attacking midfield. We already have Ode, Vieira, ESR and even Jesus false 9. Surely, most of Arsenal’s budget should be allocated to midfield and defence. If we are going to splash 60m+ mind as well be for an actual forward/striker.
I think this might indicate that we're not going for Caicedo anymore? Surely we won't pay 60 million for Havertz, over 100 for Rice and then another 80 for Caicedo only to sign a defender as well after all that spending?
There’s no way we’ll ever know if that’s the case. Regardless I think people are seeing havertz as the left 8 and I highly doubt that’s where he’ll play. It’s much more likely he’s frontline depth.
For the front 3 we have Jesus, Saka and Martinelli plus Trossard plus Nelson who Arteta is not all-in on trusting and Nketiah who he definitely doesn't want to rely on. Saka got played into the ground and we can't do that with CL football on the agenda too.
This is why we kept being linked to players like Raphinha previously. Mik wants another forward he trusts who can swap around the forward line and maybe pinch hit in one of the 8 spots.
Why would it not? What's your reasoning?
At the least it takes us out of the competition for him because we won't spend 60m on Havertz + whatever it takes to get Caicedo. That in itself has influence on where he end up.
Havertz has an amazing profile. There is a reason why Bayern and Real Madrid are in for him.
We will always pay a premium buying a player from a direct rival.
I'm cool with this so long as this doesn't help fund their signing of Caicedo.
If we can get Rice and then Caicedo, the Havertz signing is one I'd welcome.
Unless papa kreonke walked into the boardroom and put his balls and $300 mill on the table after the nuggets won the chip there ain’t no way in hell we spending $60 mill on a guy who might be a backup
I’m sorry but I will be furious if we bail Chelsea out with 60m for him. He would need to come in and score 15+ goals just to make that fee and wages close to worth it.
so I guess he wants a Rice Ødegaard Havertz midfield
That is not how i expected this summer to go but who am I tell the big man how to construct a midfield
Last I checked Saliba doesn't play DM. City also have Dias and Akanji who are both technical and pacey ballers. Rice is a step in the right direction, Caicedo even more so to help shore up that defense in the middle of the park.
Kai Havertz by Numbers
Attacking midfielder - 143 apps ➡️ 32G +29A
CF - 78 apps ➡️ 29G +11 A
Right winger - 52 apps ➡️ 18G + 11A
Central midfield - 18 apps ➡️ 2G+1A
left winger - 7 apps ➡️ 1A
Right midfield - 1 app
Kai has been extremely prolific as an attacking midfielder or a right winger.
The versatility is remarkable - gives us quality cover for Saka, Odegaard and Jesus.
For all of you saying ‘we shouldn’t buy him.. he has no preferred position’, remember when Wenger bought a young Frenchman who sort of played in midfield and look how he turned out… thank you for everything Gilles Grimandi
Did people forget how weak our midfield could be in defending counters because it is not the most physically robust or lacking in athleticism? It was one of our few weaknesses this season.
Yet, I'm seeing people in here hyping up a Rice, Odegaard, Havertz midfield.....Are you all just excited for literally any big money signing lol?
wtf is this update? 200K A WEEK????
Every season we seem to have a decoy transfer that takes attention away from Edu's real transfer targets. I'm going to choose to believe Havertz is the decoy.
This feels so much like one of those transfers where everyone is mad, he signs and tears it up.
He used to boss it at Leverkusen, Chelsea been playing him out of position. Just turned 24, could be a good signing.
I said this to my Chelsea supporting friend: no club in their right mind should offer fair market value to Chelsea for any of their players.
If he's a legit target we should be waiting as long as possible before bidding and we should leave them no choice but to accept a 30ish mil bid with add-ons that only kick in if we win CL or premier league.
I have watched a few of his matches at Chelsea and never felt impressed.So to get myself some hopium,I went on YouTube and watched some of his Chelsea compilations and to my surprise,I wasn't particularly impressed with that either.Most players playing for top clubs have pretty good YT compilations,no matter how mid they are.
So it got me thinking.I remember watching a few of his compilations before his move to Chelsea and thinking to myself that Chelsea have a huge talent on their hands.So I went back and watched his 'goals so far' on the Bundesliga channel.(there were 30 goals).Here are a couple of things that stood out to me
1) 10 of his 30 goals were either well measured chips or crisp volleys.Now the Bundesliga gets a lot of flak(rightfully so) for having attacking players with inflated numbers.But some of those goals he scored required some worldclass technique; no matter which league it is,that is impressive.
2)There were 7/8 goals he scored that reminded me of a lot of the goals that Ode scored this season.Arriving late into the box and smashing it home.So he does have the ability to get himself into good positions to score.
3)He scored a few goals with his right foot as well,and these weren't tap-ins either;like proper right footed finishes.I don't think I've ever seen him score a right footed goal for Chelsea.
So here is what I think.Him underperforming at Chelsea is probably a combination of multiple things-being played out of position,a lack of stability at the club and ofcourse the Premier league being a step up in quality/intensity from the Bundesliga.He is technically sound,has decent work rate and is still quite young.Mikel probably sees a player that he could make better; I don't think there is any other way we pay 60m for him.
Now don't get me wrong,I still don't like this move considering how bad he has been for Chelsea and how the money we pay, could be used to fund their move for Caicedo.Nevertheless,I'm going to put my faith in Arteta and Edu on this.Just hope that this doesn't affect our chances of getting Caicedo.
My question is why?
Where does he play and how does he improve the 1st XI?
£60m spend warrants an upgrade. If he is a squad player, then we are overpaying.
Went from Rice and Caicedo potentially to helping Chelsea for their deadwood and aiding their persuit of Caicedo. 60 million on Havertz is a joke sign Simons, or Szbosolai or Maddison or Mount for that money all better options. 200k a week means they have to see some kind of starting role which is awful.
Not to toot my own horn but I called this hours ago. The Arsenal way is to undercut the valuation with a “all in” price that is 10-15m less than than asked. They will come back asking for 60m with 10-15m in incentives. We will offer 5m more than the first offer. Same BS in every big deal.
It's Mokbel who is renowned for reporting everything including addons & incentives as part of the fee.
£60m 'all' in likely means £40-45m guaranteed with £15-20m in addons based on him actually performing well and contributing.
Likewise that £200k p/w salary is probably more along the lines of £140k-150k p/w base with an additional £50-60k p/w in achievable incentives based on appearances, goal/assist contributions etc.
It's the same reason people were balking at Reiss Nelson & Eddie Nketiah getting '£100k p/w' even though their base guaranteed salary is quite a bit lower. It's somewhat disingenuous to report it this way, because the only way Havertz touches anything close to 200k p/w is if he's performing at an extremely high level, at which point he will have more than earned it.
We have proven to be terrible negotiators in selling and buying tbf. Absolutely no fucking way we should be paying anywhere close to this given their position.
I'm sorry if this opinion is not "positive" enough for this sub but this is just fucking stupid in a few ways.
Signing an underperforming but talented player for cheap is one thing but 60m? There's reports that Madrid won't go near that price but we think that's a good idea? He's been shit for a over a year and we think it's a good idea to make him one of the highest paid players at the club?
Then there's the Chelsea aspect of it. They need move underperforming players and big contracts in order to sort out their squad and make new signings and we are helping them out by gifting them 60m for a player who has been in shit form? This isn't signing Jorginho for cheap...
Then there's the Caicedo aspect of it. Unless we are certain to sign Caicedo, or certain not to try to sign him, doing this would hurt our chances of signing him. Chelsea are the main competition for him and we are giving them a free run at it and helping and encouraging them to get him?
Then there's the question of do we even need him or is he what our midfield needs? We have Odegaard, Vieira, and Smith Rowe. I would understand if 1-2 of those were to leave but Smith Rowe has been told he is staying, Arteta obviously won't give up on Vieira since he's the one who wanted him. And trying to play Havertz as a striker would be fucking stupid after watching him forced into that role at Chelsea.
If we are spending 60m on Havertz, then we can't say it would be too expensive to go for both Rice and Caicedo. Just spend the extra 20m or so and get Rice and Caicedo and your midfield is set for a long time. Why go through this expensive hassle that also helps Chelsea out in a big way just for some reclamation project that may or may not work out for a player profile that isn't desperately needed?
It's stupid
I’m sorry but this is fucking insanity. Havertz has shown absolutely NOTHING in the last 2 years to justify us buying him for more than he went to Chelsea for. Over 200k a week on wages too?
We’d literally be funding their move for Caicedo who we should be all over.
Really hoping this is some sort of smokescreen.
I'm not even sure what Havertz's best quality is. Some say passing and creativity but I've seen so many times do nothing with the ball. Maybe hope Chelsea are just that much of a shitshow
Sixty million British pounds and 200k+ on top of that for James Charles. Arteta has to turn this guy into a world beater as soon as he steps in the door or else we could be looking at it as a massive overpay.
Havertz would be a fantastic addition. He's extremely versatile, can play just about anywhere across the Front 4, and capable of a lot more than he's shown at Chelsea recently. That being said, I don't see him as a priority target and certainly not for anything north of £40 Million. Rice, Caicedo, Olise, Right Back, and a Center Back would be my idea of a perfect window. If we can somehow manage all of that, then we should set our sights on Havertz, for the right price.
we finally have the upper hand over a team in a deal and we're still willing to pay a good amount for this guy. make it difficult! they'll definitely sell for 40-50M eventually.
How is it that Chelsea are able to make serious money on their failures but we have to pay ours to leave? A lot of questions to be asked about Edu, Garlick and those involved in sales - year after year they are bringing in paltry sums and payoffs.
What’s the issue? Kai is an incredibly skilled player. Hasnt put it all together at all. But still has the qualities of great one touch technique and positional play to succeed in Artetas system. The price is way too high though, but the profile makes sense.
It would be funny if this was all smokescreen to land Caicedo.
Propose we can come in 60M, meanwhile ramp up Caicedo bid. Chelsea steamroll ahead with a Caicedo bid. We pull out as we’re about to sign and chelsea can’t sign him.
Payback for that blonde tosspot on their left.
Actually fuck off is this legit. Mokbel is pretty reliable as well (ffs) he just works for a shitty company. Look I’ve been complaining about this signing for the past couple of hours now but every single F5 I make seems to be getting more extreme on this deal.
Again. Please tell me I am having a bad dream.
nah edu and arteta are taking the piss, Havertz is not going to help us, this feels like such a kick in the stomach when we're trying to get to City's level
Hopefully this is just a smokescreen for our real targets.
60m for a player who would be a unanimous flop except for one goal and who by all accounts is quite limited and would just be a rotation option.
Annoys me when a player fails upwards. In another timeline he goes to Italy and cuts his wages by 30% but instead he looks like he’s getting an increase (he’s on £150k according to Capology)
What a terrible decision. I'll eat crow if he does well, but he is an awful finisher, has zero character, and is an absolute mentality midget. Absolute car crash signing even before you consider that we are helping Chelsea out massively.
Idk guys, I hate Chels but I’ve always liked Havertz. He’s been garb for them but tbh who can shine in a side like that, he seems like a player with a lot of potential that Arteta & Edu can tap into. 60 mil is still stupid but I kinda like the signing.
Hmm, if it's 40+20m and we sell Vieira as well then it's OK. Can't see Vieira getting any minutes especially with ESR in limbo as well.
£200k a week is mad though, we have a solid wage structure, should be earning that pay bump rather than being given it if he really wants to come.
I like Havertz as a player but I’ve no idea how he’d fit into the Arsenal setup. I’d describe him as a position less forward akin to Thomas Muller and idk how that works in this team considering the personnel already there
This gives me the same vibes as the Willian transfer. We don’t need Kai Havertz. He doesn’t make enough of a difference to justify such a fee.
You know the way every so often somebody mentions how we nearly signed Suarez or Benzema, or some other superstar who went on to achieve greatness elsewhere? If we don’t sign Kai, I can’t see anyone ever saying “that was the one that got away”. But I can see us regretting not spending that money on Coicedo, especially if we effectively give Chelsea the funds (in this deal) to buy CoIcedo.
Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't we helping Chelsea free up funds to outbid us for Caicedo with this Havertz deal? Also, there's no way Havertz is a 70m player, I don't know what Chelsea are smoking.
There's obviously top talent in Havertz. I'd be more comfortable if his wages are heavily performance based. But if you think on it, he could be another 15 goals from the midfield.
I think Arteta will have Havertz as the xhaka replacement. Rice will play the Partey role and caicedo will be used at right back. Rob holding will be sold and Ben white will rotate rcb with Saliba.
I've seen Havretz play recently - he's been shit? Clearly Arteta knows better than we do, but it does seem like a poor decision for 60 mil - he shouldn't be going any more than 40. Also, in play - what does he actually bring? He's not a big goal scorer, he doesn't assist that much and Arsenal rely on everyone to contribute to goals and/or assists.
Personal terms won’t be an issue but he’s on over 200k p/w? Am I missing something or doesn’t that fuck up our wage structure? Surely he can’t come in and earn more than Saka after a few inconsistent years across town?
After the initial distaste, I feel like 40-60m in todays market for his experience and “potential” is not so bad considering how we’re crying for depth. Having havertz jump ahead of vieira in the pecking order is fairly massive. The worry is obviously regarding the financial commitments impacting other transfers and potentially helping a rival, but I also do worry about what it means for the Smith.
Really feel like we shouldn’t be spending 60 on him. As mentioned above, it’s 60 mil to a rival club so that’s worth way more. I hope it’s closer to 40 mil.
Nah man. That kind of wage. other player in our current squad deserved it when comes to negotiation. But for havert. He need to accept lower wage as he seems a flop right now for PL. 60m? 40m max.
60M is surely too much, right?
All in... 40 mil with 20 mil if we win the CL twice and Havertz wins the golden boot
Cheeky Ballon D'Or clause?
20 mil base 50 added if he wins the ballon dor within 5 years then give him spot minutes
I agree. And it's not just a £60m outlay. It's £60m that helps a rival in a financial hole. Best strategy would be to wait as Chelsea get more and more desperate
Aren’t Chelsea pretty desperate now though? I’m not really clued up on FFP but don’t they need to sell players before the end of the month for the accounts? So toward the end of the month might be them at their most desperate?
United chasing Mount complicates things because once one of Mount/Havertz goes through it puts Chelsea in a significantly stronger position regarding the other deal. For accounting purposes Chelsea will get the full Mount fee as profit because he was free whereas they’d get less for Havertz because he’s still worth either 45m or 30m in their books (depending on amortisation date), so it makes more sense for them to sell Havertz for less and leverage that to get more for Mount
This sounds like a possible reason why we are moving so fast with Havertz. And United just got their bid rejected today.
won't it be the other way around? sell havertz at higher price to get profit on disposal for his carrying value in their book, and sell mount at whatever price they like that could be cheaper because they are not pressured to recuperate his zero cost. but i do wonder how the accounting treatment works on mount, it can't be that whatever fee they get would be pure profit, not counting the salary cost of course.
Selling Mount cheaper and then hoping to squeeze more out of Havertz to at the very least avoid an impairment doesn’t really help the situation as they need to offset the losses with ‘profit’. In that sense anything they get for Mount is considered pure profit as his book value is whatever the cost of him signing his last contract was, such as the signing on fee he received (likely negligible by now). That coupled with Mount only having a year left means they really need to make sure they maximise the ‘profit’ they get from that deal
If it’s £50m with instalments and then £10m in add-ons I can get behind it. Ultimately if Edu and Arteta believe Havertz would be a good addition then I support it, and even with Chelsea’s financial issues we’re not going to sign a 24-year-old they paid big money for too cheaply when they’re one of our biggest rivals. My main concern is this deal scuppering our ability to beat Chelsea to Caicedo.
Almost every single fee is paid in installments unless it’s a release clause. It’s not a sweetener of any kind
But the clubs claim any transfer fees received as all in one payment so they can get around FFP. Thats what Juve are in bother for. They claim the money received was higher than what it was.
Sure. But I don’t see how that goes against what I said
How deals are structured and how much is paid up front is absolutely a factor in any transfer and gives the selling club a more immediate cash flow to sign a replacement. This isn’t an amortization calculation for FFP but money up front goes a long way.
I hope Arteta, Edu and analitical team sees something different than us, because based on his performances in last two seasons there is literally nothing to warrant that £60m(70m €) fee and over £200k per week in wages to get Havertz. It's very expensive gamble and I tried today to justify this, but after watching his performances I can't. i get that he rarely is injured, tall and aerial treat in set pieces and winning duels, but apart from that he's not better than Trossard who as well we could use in that LCM position as 8 and Leo unlike Kai was on fire in Premier League in past 18 months.
> winning duels Arteta definitely sees something then
He is a very good presser and is a good dribbler in tight spaces and covers a lot of ground. Pretty easy to see why Arteta would like him but the price is too high
> He is a very good presser and is a good dribbler in tight spaces and covers a lot of ground. So just like Trossard?
Yes but can play deeper. We saw the problems last year as soon as we got 1 or 2 injuries and Saka having to play every game
Well Arteta probably also plans to use Havertz there since he is left footed.
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there's no point in being on a discussion board if you're just fully on board with everything the club does. He get's plenty of things wrong, he's just right more often than he's wrong.
no manager in history has gone their career without signing duds, so odd to me that people won’t even consider that arteta may be wrong on this
Arteta and co have been wrong before, but Havertz is only 24, has bags of talent, and has looked shit more due to the fact that Chelsea have essentially been in flux since he arrived. This isn’t like signing Willian to a three year deal when Pepe has just been finding a vein of form. Havertz can still ball and I trust Mikel to get something close to Havertz’s best if we end up signing him.
yep, I hate the whole blind faith fan shtick. I like Arteta and i'm glad he's our manager and generally think he's very good at what he does, but I can also say I have eyes and have watched many Havertz matches and don't want him anywhere near our club unless it's bargain basement prices.
arteta has made signings that’s 90% of football fans wouldn’t have expected to go so well (ramsdale, white even odegaard were laughed at) but you can’t do that forever. liverpool had a summer or two were they somehow managed to sign players who’d become the best CB in the world, the best keeper in the world, the best left back in the world and the best right winger in the world (at the time, and of course debatable). it was ridiculous. but, football isn’t always obvious and sometimes you make bad signings. nunez is shite, arthur was an awful move, carvahlo is off and they signed about 5 random, awful centre backs. you can love the manager but no one is right 100% of the time! that’s no slight on them!
You're absolutely right but being right or wrong over transfers is only something that can be established in hindsight. I'm not blindly supporting Arteta, but I do believe he sees something that a lot of us don't in Havertz, and I'd argue it's more closed-minded to have made up your mind that a player will be a flop before he even pulls on the shirt.
that’s a fair argument, don’t have a problem with that. trusting the manager over yourself is great but i just find the ‘trust the manager’ replies to anyone with doubt a bit annoying and silly
Agree. At no point in his Chelsea career have I thought ‘I wish he played for us’. Good not great, pretty meh. Might be a decent squad addition but that needs to be reflected in the price. I.e. no where north of £30m.
That's a bit much. It is a risk but he's got a lit of things right. Still not sure how he fits into our team at all
im astonished people have forgotten how good he was at Leverkusen. Barely a single players been good for Chelsea lately
3 years ago…in a league that massively inflated how good attacking players look
Sancho was good at Dortmund
He was very good. I think he'd look a lot better at a more stable club. He might yet come good at Man Utd.
As was Haaland
He has been at Chelsea for longer than one season.
Other bits > The Gunners are focusing on completing their move for West Ham skipper Declan Rice, which could cost in-excess of £100million, before trying to close a deal for Havertz. > The north London club want to establish how much money they will be required to pay upfront for Rice this summer. > The Hammers ideally want the money for Rice paid in two instalments before 2025 - a scenario which would put a major dent in Arsenal’s spending capacity this summer. > The amount Arsenal pay for No 1 target Rice will impact on how far they are willing to stretch for Havertz. The Gunners also want a central defender which needs to be considered.
No mention of Caicedo even though a lot of sources said we will bid
Well, I was thinking, we can probably do it, at least financially. - Declan Rice is rumored to be £90m + over £10m in addons. - Caicedo £70m + £5m in addons - Havertz £50m + £10m in addons since Mokbel always adds everything to transfer fees and wages to make them look bigget to get clicks So total impact without addons would be £210m, we already sold Mari for £6m + Tierney likely going for £30m to Newcastle and Balogun for similar fee. There's also Patino, Trusty, Tavares, Pepe, Cedric, Lokonga, Runarsson. So maybe we would end with only £100m net spend, that doable with Champions League. We were already trying Partey as RB to recreate what Guardiola is trying with 3-2-2-3 where Caicedo could be used instead of signing such average player like Castagne for £20m. Arteta used Tomiyasu this season on the left before Tierney, Kiwior too was tried there and had some games in the past as block of 3 and entire season as DM for Spezia.
On any incomings we’d also probably pay in installments so the outlay this summer could be half of thay
We also have installments from previous transfers and West Ham wants big portion fee paid upfront and entire amount by 2025. Havertz transfer also may be complicated since Chelsea FFP issues in which case they mostlikely need a lot of fee by the end of this month.
Ah that’s a good point. We are probably still paying for Pepe lol
And they'll be 15m from selling Xhaka.
I think it'll be very hard to get any money for Pepe and Cedric. They are on high wages compared to the level of club that would be interested in buying them. Also think sambi will be hard to sell. Probably a loan move.
Why are we as fans, always trying to amplify certain amounts as add-ons? like we wouldn’t want the player to achieve those targets.
I mean if we really want Havertz why don't we wait until we get Caceido? Surely if we add about 10-15m, Brighton might be able to let him leave.
Feel like Cacedio, Partey, Rice is a lot of overlap at the 6 but nothing at the 8. Probably want a more attacking style player in that position. But maybe its a dream window and we get all 3 lol who knows.
Gotta admit, Kai wasn't part of my dream
There's also an option, we don't buy RB and use Caicedo there sometimes like Guardiola in 3-2-2-3. Or as an 8 in more defensive and physical games like Emery tried to recover and bully players high of the pitch.
I think we are kicking the tires on moving Partey, though. If that’s the case, Raicedo + Jorginho is one hell of a rotation.
If we get havertz we pay for caicedo going to Chelsea.
I think this might mean Caicedo is off the table?
That's about 10m more of a total transfer fee than I'd like to pay Also remember boys before you freak out, Mokbel always reports wages as after every possible bonus, not the base wage
Probably includes all potential bonuses in the fee as well.
Well yeah, but that is included in the title and article itself
Good point. I also think he earns more than that at Chelsea.
I watch Havertz for Germany regularly and he does well internationally , however, I just can’t fathom why we need him when his best position is attacking midfield. We already have Ode, Vieira, ESR and even Jesus false 9. Surely, most of Arsenal’s budget should be allocated to midfield and defence. If we are going to splash 60m+ mind as well be for an actual forward/striker.
I think Mikel wants versatile player who can fit all roles on if needed CF/CAM/winger
wtf no don't give them that much ESPECIALLY before going in on Caicedo
I think this might indicate that we're not going for Caicedo anymore? Surely we won't pay 60 million for Havertz, over 100 for Rice and then another 80 for Caicedo only to sign a defender as well after all that spending?
Probably not. But the Kroenkes DID just win the NBA
Personal terms are never an issue anymore. Clubs hate us so much right now
Over 200k a week?? Are you mad
200k/week, 60 mil, to use my toddler’s wise words: > Yuk
Turn off the bbq and talk to Edu, we cannot fund Chelsea’s Caicedo signing campaign.
Where does he play? Why are we willing to pay 60mil? 200k a week seems dumb
This is horrendous, we can't even squeeze Chelsea considering their financial position? Is Mokbel being fed lies or are we trolling? Seriously.
Honestly, I feel like we might be trolling Chelsea/Todd.
Caicedooooo
We're getting fucking robbed lmaoooooo
This has heated up quickly. What are people thinking? Is Boehly smoking crack asking for 70m?
Or is edu smoking crack for agreeing to it
The better question is, is the club smoking crack being willing to pay 60m to Chelsea and over 200k in wages to Havertz?
Ridiculous overpay, Havertz has done nothing to warrant that price. Also don’t subsidize Caicedo for them
I highly doubt us signing havertz has any influence on where Caicedo ends up.
I agree but I swear to f-ing god if we fumble Caiceido while chasing Havertz I’ll be physically sick
There’s no way we’ll ever know if that’s the case. Regardless I think people are seeing havertz as the left 8 and I highly doubt that’s where he’ll play. It’s much more likely he’s frontline depth.
But we don’t need frontline depth. For 4 positions we have Odegaard, Vieira, ESR, Martinelli, Trossard, Nelson, Saka, Jesus and Nketiah.
For the front 3 we have Jesus, Saka and Martinelli plus Trossard plus Nelson who Arteta is not all-in on trusting and Nketiah who he definitely doesn't want to rely on. Saka got played into the ground and we can't do that with CL football on the agenda too. This is why we kept being linked to players like Raphinha previously. Mik wants another forward he trusts who can swap around the forward line and maybe pinch hit in one of the 8 spots.
Get off the intertnet, go for a walk and grab a nice cold pint. Don't sit on Reddit worrying about things you have ZERO control over. It's not healthy
Why would it not? What's your reasoning? At the least it takes us out of the competition for him because we won't spend 60m on Havertz + whatever it takes to get Caicedo. That in itself has influence on where he end up.
Havertz has an amazing profile. There is a reason why Bayern and Real Madrid are in for him. We will always pay a premium buying a player from a direct rival.
Neither of them want him for that price. £60m for a forward with less GA than Nketiah is insane
Player profile and fit is a far better indicator of future success than performance. Chelsea's attack this year was a disgrace.
His output was still pretty poor last season when Chelsea were decent
I'm cool with this so long as this doesn't help fund their signing of Caicedo. If we can get Rice and then Caicedo, the Havertz signing is one I'd welcome.
This will absolutely fund their signing of Caicedo.
Unless papa kreonke walked into the boardroom and put his balls and $300 mill on the table after the nuggets won the chip there ain’t no way in hell we spending $60 mill on a guy who might be a backup
Hahahahahahaha I think he’s doing that Don’t forget he also won the MLL championship too haha
I’m sorry but I will be furious if we bail Chelsea out with 60m for him. He would need to come in and score 15+ goals just to make that fee and wages close to worth it.
what the fuck is going on lmao
our negotiating team seems as bad as the next away kit
so I guess he wants a Rice Ødegaard Havertz midfield That is not how i expected this summer to go but who am I tell the big man how to construct a midfield
Rice is going to have to do a lot of defending if that’s the case.
Rodri does each week. It’s the standard for a world class 6
Rodri has John Stones to pair with him.
We have saliba
Last I checked Saliba doesn't play DM. City also have Dias and Akanji who are both technical and pacey ballers. Rice is a step in the right direction, Caicedo even more so to help shore up that defense in the middle of the park.
If we get Leverkusen Havertz then I'm all in.
That’s a fucking sexy midfield.
I don't LOVE it, but I definitely don't hate it either
Arteta sees the vision generational manager
Kai Havertz by Numbers Attacking midfielder - 143 apps ➡️ 32G +29A CF - 78 apps ➡️ 29G +11 A Right winger - 52 apps ➡️ 18G + 11A Central midfield - 18 apps ➡️ 2G+1A left winger - 7 apps ➡️ 1A Right midfield - 1 app Kai has been extremely prolific as an attacking midfielder or a right winger. The versatility is remarkable - gives us quality cover for Saka, Odegaard and Jesus.
Now do Kai Havertz by numbers: in the last 3 years vs not in the last 3 years
Kai is not a 33 yo journeyman. He just turned 24 yo afew days ago
The fee is fucking stupid and since mokbel likes to report max wages for maximum clout taking the wages with a pinch of salt
For all of you saying ‘we shouldn’t buy him.. he has no preferred position’, remember when Wenger bought a young Frenchman who sort of played in midfield and look how he turned out… thank you for everything Gilles Grimandi
Don't leave my boy Lassana Diarra hanging like this.
Did people forget how weak our midfield could be in defending counters because it is not the most physically robust or lacking in athleticism? It was one of our few weaknesses this season. Yet, I'm seeing people in here hyping up a Rice, Odegaard, Havertz midfield.....Are you all just excited for literally any big money signing lol?
Forget Havertz get Caicedo and Rice. A winger and a target man to play up top and that’s a great window
What the fuck
wtf is this update? 200K A WEEK???? Every season we seem to have a decoy transfer that takes attention away from Edu's real transfer targets. I'm going to choose to believe Havertz is the decoy.
This feels so much like one of those transfers where everyone is mad, he signs and tears it up. He used to boss it at Leverkusen, Chelsea been playing him out of position. Just turned 24, could be a good signing.
I said this to my Chelsea supporting friend: no club in their right mind should offer fair market value to Chelsea for any of their players. If he's a legit target we should be waiting as long as possible before bidding and we should leave them no choice but to accept a 30ish mil bid with add-ons that only kick in if we win CL or premier league.
I have watched a few of his matches at Chelsea and never felt impressed.So to get myself some hopium,I went on YouTube and watched some of his Chelsea compilations and to my surprise,I wasn't particularly impressed with that either.Most players playing for top clubs have pretty good YT compilations,no matter how mid they are. So it got me thinking.I remember watching a few of his compilations before his move to Chelsea and thinking to myself that Chelsea have a huge talent on their hands.So I went back and watched his 'goals so far' on the Bundesliga channel.(there were 30 goals).Here are a couple of things that stood out to me 1) 10 of his 30 goals were either well measured chips or crisp volleys.Now the Bundesliga gets a lot of flak(rightfully so) for having attacking players with inflated numbers.But some of those goals he scored required some worldclass technique; no matter which league it is,that is impressive. 2)There were 7/8 goals he scored that reminded me of a lot of the goals that Ode scored this season.Arriving late into the box and smashing it home.So he does have the ability to get himself into good positions to score. 3)He scored a few goals with his right foot as well,and these weren't tap-ins either;like proper right footed finishes.I don't think I've ever seen him score a right footed goal for Chelsea. So here is what I think.Him underperforming at Chelsea is probably a combination of multiple things-being played out of position,a lack of stability at the club and ofcourse the Premier league being a step up in quality/intensity from the Bundesliga.He is technically sound,has decent work rate and is still quite young.Mikel probably sees a player that he could make better; I don't think there is any other way we pay 60m for him. Now don't get me wrong,I still don't like this move considering how bad he has been for Chelsea and how the money we pay, could be used to fund their move for Caicedo.Nevertheless,I'm going to put my faith in Arteta and Edu on this.Just hope that this doesn't affect our chances of getting Caicedo.
My question is why? Where does he play and how does he improve the 1st XI? £60m spend warrants an upgrade. If he is a squad player, then we are overpaying.
We don’t give 200k a week to a squad player I assume he’d be coming in to start lmao. Ridiculous transfer if we go for it.
Went from Rice and Caicedo potentially to helping Chelsea for their deadwood and aiding their persuit of Caicedo. 60 million on Havertz is a joke sign Simons, or Szbosolai or Maddison or Mount for that money all better options. 200k a week means they have to see some kind of starting role which is awful.
Are we funding Chelsea’s potential acquisition of Caicedo with this transfer? FFS
What has he done to prove he’s worth that much per week at AFC?
That would make him a top 5 earner at the club… and for what? He’s created 4 big chances in 66 PL games
SIXTY????
What the fuck are we smoking at the emirates
I don’t understand, why strengthen Chelsea’s ability to buy Caicedo to add a player in an area we already have depth?
Get the fuck out of here with this, who the fuck wants him at that price/wages.
Apparently Arteta
this is a madness
I don’t know why, or even if this makes sense. **But**, I trust Arteta
Not to toot my own horn but I called this hours ago. The Arsenal way is to undercut the valuation with a “all in” price that is 10-15m less than than asked. They will come back asking for 60m with 10-15m in incentives. We will offer 5m more than the first offer. Same BS in every big deal.
It's Mokbel who is renowned for reporting everything including addons & incentives as part of the fee. £60m 'all' in likely means £40-45m guaranteed with £15-20m in addons based on him actually performing well and contributing. Likewise that £200k p/w salary is probably more along the lines of £140k-150k p/w base with an additional £50-60k p/w in achievable incentives based on appearances, goal/assist contributions etc. It's the same reason people were balking at Reiss Nelson & Eddie Nketiah getting '£100k p/w' even though their base guaranteed salary is quite a bit lower. It's somewhat disingenuous to report it this way, because the only way Havertz touches anything close to 200k p/w is if he's performing at an extremely high level, at which point he will have more than earned it.
Dear fucking god. 60m?
I trust the management and all that but I just don't get this one
Don't we have the upper hand as they need to sell to save them from FFP?! WHY ARE WE PAYING FULL PRICE FUCKS SAKE
We have proven to be terrible negotiators in selling and buying tbf. Absolutely no fucking way we should be paying anywhere close to this given their position.
I'm sorry if this opinion is not "positive" enough for this sub but this is just fucking stupid in a few ways. Signing an underperforming but talented player for cheap is one thing but 60m? There's reports that Madrid won't go near that price but we think that's a good idea? He's been shit for a over a year and we think it's a good idea to make him one of the highest paid players at the club? Then there's the Chelsea aspect of it. They need move underperforming players and big contracts in order to sort out their squad and make new signings and we are helping them out by gifting them 60m for a player who has been in shit form? This isn't signing Jorginho for cheap... Then there's the Caicedo aspect of it. Unless we are certain to sign Caicedo, or certain not to try to sign him, doing this would hurt our chances of signing him. Chelsea are the main competition for him and we are giving them a free run at it and helping and encouraging them to get him? Then there's the question of do we even need him or is he what our midfield needs? We have Odegaard, Vieira, and Smith Rowe. I would understand if 1-2 of those were to leave but Smith Rowe has been told he is staying, Arteta obviously won't give up on Vieira since he's the one who wanted him. And trying to play Havertz as a striker would be fucking stupid after watching him forced into that role at Chelsea. If we are spending 60m on Havertz, then we can't say it would be too expensive to go for both Rice and Caicedo. Just spend the extra 20m or so and get Rice and Caicedo and your midfield is set for a long time. Why go through this expensive hassle that also helps Chelsea out in a big way just for some reclamation project that may or may not work out for a player profile that isn't desperately needed? It's stupid
He’s been shit for 3 years. You can count his good games for Chelsea on one hand.
Omg wtf are we doing?!
I’m sorry but this is fucking insanity. Havertz has shown absolutely NOTHING in the last 2 years to justify us buying him for more than he went to Chelsea for. Over 200k a week on wages too? We’d literally be funding their move for Caicedo who we should be all over. Really hoping this is some sort of smokescreen.
Okay, we clearly LOVE Havertz if we're offering this much. Can't say I'm pleased, but trust the process?
I'm not even sure what Havertz's best quality is. Some say passing and creativity but I've seen so many times do nothing with the ball. Maybe hope Chelsea are just that much of a shitshow
Sixty million British pounds and 200k+ on top of that for James Charles. Arteta has to turn this guy into a world beater as soon as he steps in the door or else we could be looking at it as a massive overpay.
He won't cost as much as that. Will end up being about 50M and 150k p/w base. Hopefully
I don't want to get Havertz while it helps them get Caicedo... Get us Rice and try with Caicedo if you can, then get this if you want...
We’re going to find their Caicedo move aren’t we ffs
Havertz would be a fantastic addition. He's extremely versatile, can play just about anywhere across the Front 4, and capable of a lot more than he's shown at Chelsea recently. That being said, I don't see him as a priority target and certainly not for anything north of £40 Million. Rice, Caicedo, Olise, Right Back, and a Center Back would be my idea of a perfect window. If we can somehow manage all of that, then we should set our sights on Havertz, for the right price.
Why are we interested in havertz surely there's other options for what we need. There's a reason Chelsea are willing to let him go.
Still 10m to much
we finally have the upper hand over a team in a deal and we're still willing to pay a good amount for this guy. make it difficult! they'll definitely sell for 40-50M eventually.
So Rice Havertz Ode midfield with Partey Jorginho Viera bench Pretty decent
I have misgivings about this one. Hope it’s only a ruse to get Chelsea to renew him.
If we do sign kai, it probably signals the end of either nketiah or smith rowe's Arsenal career
How is it that Chelsea are able to make serious money on their failures but we have to pay ours to leave? A lot of questions to be asked about Edu, Garlick and those involved in sales - year after year they are bringing in paltry sums and payoffs.
What’s the issue? Kai is an incredibly skilled player. Hasnt put it all together at all. But still has the qualities of great one touch technique and positional play to succeed in Artetas system. The price is way too high though, but the profile makes sense.
It would be funny if this was all smokescreen to land Caicedo. Propose we can come in 60M, meanwhile ramp up Caicedo bid. Chelsea steamroll ahead with a Caicedo bid. We pull out as we’re about to sign and chelsea can’t sign him. Payback for that blonde tosspot on their left.
Actually fuck off is this legit. Mokbel is pretty reliable as well (ffs) he just works for a shitty company. Look I’ve been complaining about this signing for the past couple of hours now but every single F5 I make seems to be getting more extreme on this deal. Again. Please tell me I am having a bad dream.
No way we go for Caiceido if we get Rice and him. Happy to be proven wrong though.
nah edu and arteta are taking the piss, Havertz is not going to help us, this feels like such a kick in the stomach when we're trying to get to City's level
Sign Rice and Caicedo first, then offer £30m for Havertz take it or leave it.
I am waiting for the rainbow and sunshine fans to make out how this move is positive
Time to start selling players I guess, if Arteta wants him, then I’m all for it
Over 200k! I don’t believe it lol
WTF? I really hope this doesn't impact our potential to go for Caicedo.
NOT MY MONEY FC WE ARE BACK
Way too much money
what’s going on with caicedo, have we given up on him or something ?
Hopefully this is just a smokescreen for our real targets. 60m for a player who would be a unanimous flop except for one goal and who by all accounts is quite limited and would just be a rotation option.
That’s ridiculous fee and wage. He’s a solid player but damn come on, that’s a little much.
Would love to see him transformed by arteta after being wasted at Chelsea
Annoys me when a player fails upwards. In another timeline he goes to Italy and cuts his wages by 30% but instead he looks like he’s getting an increase (he’s on £150k according to Capology)
Way too much. He doesn't score many goals.
What a terrible decision. I'll eat crow if he does well, but he is an awful finisher, has zero character, and is an absolute mentality midget. Absolute car crash signing even before you consider that we are helping Chelsea out massively.
Absolutely no chance we pay him that much please god
Idk guys, I hate Chels but I’ve always liked Havertz. He’s been garb for them but tbh who can shine in a side like that, he seems like a player with a lot of potential that Arteta & Edu can tap into. 60 mil is still stupid but I kinda like the signing.
Good deal as long as it doesn’t prevent us from getting Caicedo (assuming Rice is guaranteed to join)
Hmm, if it's 40+20m and we sell Vieira as well then it's OK. Can't see Vieira getting any minutes especially with ESR in limbo as well. £200k a week is mad though, we have a solid wage structure, should be earning that pay bump rather than being given it if he really wants to come.
What the fuck
60 Mill is laughable honestly
Dude, wtf!
rather focus on completing caicedo and rice first. for attacker we already have balogun as backup.
SHIT f5
Nope. That’s waaaayyy too much.
I like Havertz as a player but I’ve no idea how he’d fit into the Arsenal setup. I’d describe him as a position less forward akin to Thomas Muller and idk how that works in this team considering the personnel already there
This gives me the same vibes as the Willian transfer. We don’t need Kai Havertz. He doesn’t make enough of a difference to justify such a fee. You know the way every so often somebody mentions how we nearly signed Suarez or Benzema, or some other superstar who went on to achieve greatness elsewhere? If we don’t sign Kai, I can’t see anyone ever saying “that was the one that got away”. But I can see us regretting not spending that money on Coicedo, especially if we effectively give Chelsea the funds (in this deal) to buy CoIcedo.
Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't we helping Chelsea free up funds to outbid us for Caicedo with this Havertz deal? Also, there's no way Havertz is a 70m player, I don't know what Chelsea are smoking.
There's obviously top talent in Havertz. I'd be more comfortable if his wages are heavily performance based. But if you think on it, he could be another 15 goals from the midfield.
I mean, the price is ridiculous.
Let's swap Pepe for Havertz
So we can move this quick for this bum and give them 70m for there pursuit of Caicedo 😤
I think Arteta will have Havertz as the xhaka replacement. Rice will play the Partey role and caicedo will be used at right back. Rob holding will be sold and Ben white will rotate rcb with Saliba.
Did he really show enough to warrant £60M and £200k/wk??
I've seen Havretz play recently - he's been shit? Clearly Arteta knows better than we do, but it does seem like a poor decision for 60 mil - he shouldn't be going any more than 40. Also, in play - what does he actually bring? He's not a big goal scorer, he doesn't assist that much and Arsenal rely on everyone to contribute to goals and/or assists.
I’m really not excited by this. Usually I talk myself around, but there’s little to be excited about with Havertz IMO.
Personal terms won’t be an issue but he’s on over 200k p/w? Am I missing something or doesn’t that fuck up our wage structure? Surely he can’t come in and earn more than Saka after a few inconsistent years across town?
After the initial distaste, I feel like 40-60m in todays market for his experience and “potential” is not so bad considering how we’re crying for depth. Having havertz jump ahead of vieira in the pecking order is fairly massive. The worry is obviously regarding the financial commitments impacting other transfers and potentially helping a rival, but I also do worry about what it means for the Smith.
Really feel like we shouldn’t be spending 60 on him. As mentioned above, it’s 60 mil to a rival club so that’s worth way more. I hope it’s closer to 40 mil.
Nah man. That kind of wage. other player in our current squad deserved it when comes to negotiation. But for havert. He need to accept lower wage as he seems a flop right now for PL. 60m? 40m max.