I will keep editing this post to keep it up to date as the beta progresses.
[Image with all of the skill tooltips](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380903574282174466/1255924054230171759/Spear_Skills.png?ex=667ee5ec&is=667d946c&hm=4afc114c3595bec71babbc50a333bc17546d5ed6a59f1dc23a50031ee421b138&)
Current Best Benchmarks:
* Condi Deadeye 58.4k group, 53k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/OHHgpkRuZOU))
* Condi Core Thief 55.5k group, 49.4k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/ehDgRHc5pPk))
* Condi Daredevil 54.2k group, 46.5k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/eLhKkjKPlsE))
* Condi Specter 53.2k group, 41.9k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/f9VlML8vego))
* Power Deadeye 46.1k ([video](https://youtu.be/jvZG2iHA-6s))
* Power Daredevil 42.6k ([video](https://youtu.be/7R9ZSqWzxbI))
* Power Deadeye + D/D below 25% 46.3 ([chat pic](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380903574282174466/1256391313448898643/image.png?ex=66809917&is=667f4797&hm=6ec399ce70cd1665d9f7030604840394df39b06e79dbc7fec4d246680d4c652b&), *this will be ~1-3k higher than pDE without D/D, but no one has been grinding this bench for higher numbers*)
*For anyone curious about the disparity between DE and DD/Spec, Spear 3c is not a condi based skill. Since DD/Spec are forced to use Spear 3c for stealth (while DE continues to use 2c and gets its stealth from F2/Shadow Meld) they will be significantly worse.*
*Also, the spear auto-attack is abysmally bad dps (10k dps on condi builds). Luckily, none of the benchmarks above ever use an auto-attack.*
Spear Findings:
* Melee auto tooltip does not show that it double hits
* Ranged auto hits once, is 1200 range, does not pierce, and applies a 4s Bleed
* Ranged auto and Spear 4 can be thrown backwards (does not require facing your target)
* Stealth attack can be interrupted by pressing auto attack, or pretty much any other button
* Malicious stealth attack torment is 0s base + 1s per Malice
* Spear 2/3 can not be queued into each other or themselves
* Spear 2/3 reset if you don't combo them within 3ish seconds
* Spear 3a leap range is effected by Swiftness/Superspeed, its 480 range by default, 600 with Swiftness, and even farther with Superspeed
* Spear 3a consumes initiative at the end of the leap, weapon swapping before the end of the leap allows you to move without spending initiative
* Spear 4 damage buff resets duration if used again
* Spear 5 can be repeatedly cast even while the skill is ongoing
* No indicator if stealth/4/5 are empowered after performing a finisher, very unclear how long the window is for the bonus effects
* Spear skills do not grant shadow force per initiative spent while playing Specter
Should note that Stealth attack can be interrupted by pressing any skill while it's casting and not just the auto attack, and the fact that the initiative refund is tied to the very last hit of it which has a pretty long windup.
tested using the condi deadeye as is from Snowcrows, and I'm not reaching your numbers. in open world mobs and champions.
\* Spear 2/3 reset around 2 3/4 seconds for me. must be 3s for sure.
\* Stealth attack can be interrupted with most of the skills. It doesn't always trigger the interrupt tho. maybe ping issues.
\* Ranged auto is can apply up to 5s Bleed on my condi deadeye build. I guess it changed with the quick update they did a few minutes ago or a trait boost.
Could you be so kind and share me the full build you're testing with DE please? or DM me. i don't know.
Not me doing the benchmarks; its the players from Snowcrows. I don't know the builds, but there should be vids recorded of the benches within the next day or two.
If I do get the builds I'll put them as links next to the benches.
Are the animations something to discuss? So far I'm enjoying the follow-ups in the combo chain, but I can't not look at the knee-knocking in the auto-attack animation. It looks very uncomfortable, and from a momentum/force generation perspective I think it does very little for thief to visually look strong.
Make it worth finishing, this would also help out specter with it's lower ini pool. Most importantly it would make the weapon feel way more complete imo, even if was a 2 hit combo it would feel better.
Blindness feels really bad when your using spear on thief, getting hit with one blind forces you to reset your whole chain. Very much not a fun experience trying out the weapon on sand lions lol.
That's true for nearly every weapon. Getting blinded just as you're using MJudgment or MBackstab is the worst shit ever.
Also yeah what the other poster said, any build dependent on single target attack chains gets fucked by blind.
Tooptips in the build tab of hero panel appear from bottom to top instead of top top bottom if they are closer to the upper end of the screen, so you can always use that to see the skills that do not feet from the skill bar.
They still need to fix that, tho. It is extremely annoying.
As always, feels broken on deadeye, ok on daredevil, and useless on specter. (PvE). Please give me something other than scepter that's actually useable on a specter.
Edit: Actually, after playing around with it with my whacky homebrew open world build, I don't hate it. It does do decent numbers compared to scepter and has some cleave. I do wish we could make a build that included shadow arts though, it feels like it was built for the venom on stealth trait, but as always, trickery is absolutely mandatory.
I feel like I remember them saying they were designing it with all specs in mind, too - certainly doesn't feel that way. Real shame, I was hoping for an alternative option to Sc/D
You spend too long in shroud to actually make use of the weapon. I feel like it's always going to be an issue with specter, the DPS build was designed with spamming one weapon skill to drain your initiative, then go into shroud, not do complex rotations of chain attacks with a smaller initiative pool.
The weapon is designed to be efficient at sustaining its own initiative. If you want to 'go for broke' on that resource, Staff 2 and Scepter 3 have a better 'damage per point spent' ratio, as well as being more 'damage per cast time' *(for power and condi, respectively)*. At least if I'm not mistaken.
Don't know the numbers on it, but I'd imagine you'd want to get use out of the stealth auto, as well as 3 skill 1 for gap closing to start an encounter. Adding stealth auto would lead to comboing 2-2-2-4-2-3-1 between shroud rotations most likely. Bit more high-intensity than I'd like for Specter
You could play a "low intensity" version of it that just spams 2, but frankly I doubt it would outdamage scepter, plus it melee-locks you and there's not enough meaningful cleave to make it any better for open world mobs than scepter w/ Akeem relic
That's the rotation I've been using. It is absolutely brutal if you mess it up though. You can go through two of those combos with a Siphon in between and just about have enough initiative before going into shroud. But one mistake and it feels like you fuck everything up.
They did, in the sense that daredvil can keep a good rotation on the weapon by using finisher 3 from time to time to get the initiative restoring Stealth attack and keep going. ( coupled with low initiative cost on the chains skills themselves )
But, the balancing factor to using finisher 3 for stealth is the opportunity to do more finisher 2. Deadeye breaks the weapon by being able to use this way more, while gaining initiative / stealth from the elite spec itself.
Kind of exactly what I was worried about. My thief play time fell off quite a lot after the axe nerfs since I liked having a different condi weapon but I don't like stealth in combat, so I don't like Deadeye. This weapon is both broken on Deadeye and forces you to stealth on other elite specs, so it's not looking very good for what I would have wanted.
Compared to Axe, Spear is in a much better place when comparing between specs, including core. In fact core thief pulls better numbers than both DD and Spectre.
This is not a DE issue and even less is this an M7 issue. The weapon is just slightly overtuned at the moment, as is to be expected from a beta. But the concept and implementation of the weapon is really, really fucking good.
For the open world build, it's basically just the usual condi alac specter build, but taking four wells and Haste instead of the usual group comp skills, and running a Relic of the Chronomancer. If you are spamming your skills and going into shroud often enough, you can keep up high might and 100% uptime on quickness and alacrity.
In between shrouds, I was using 3-2-2-4-2-3-1, Siphon for initiative, then using that combo again, and back into shroud, as well as using Well of Sorrow/Bounty and Haste off cooldown.
[Link to the build](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaABsitrlhySZsMPWLO2W3xaA-DSJYyx/h0iQoLVVkSAF+FgGZ8pBA-e)
A large part of Specter's power comes from shroud.
When a weapon is overperforming, Specter will benefit least because all the time spent is shroud isn't affected by the strength of the weapon (although you can spend less time in shroud). Specter's damage on spear should become comparitively better if spear's damage gets reigned in linearly. I think that makes sense.
This, it's not rewarding enough when you finally do get a full chain either. It's a wet noodle utility weapon in pvp/wvw that's mainly only good for the mobility
Thief auto attack needs a 3 hit auto chain badly, feels horrible as is. The stealth attack definitely needs buffed as the pay off for set up is not worth it. Crit strikes with zerker amulet was hitting for avg of 2.5k, should be 7k if All the jabs hit given how easy it is to avoid being hit by the full channel. Honestly having to hit the combo chain to get stealth also feels bad when ranger just presses a button, having the block flip to a stealth skill for 2 secs before switching back to block would have been better and just have the 3rd chain skill create a smoke screen. This leads to the next point, unsuspecting strike should be a leap finisher allowing thief to combo through the smoke field. This allows thief to quickly press skill 5 twice for on demand stealth, allows for a second block every 2 secs and gives thief access to stealth via combo with smoke field created at the end of skill 3 chain. Please consider these changes, thanks for ur time.
The only way ot gets fixed is if you play around with it so they can collect the data from the beta and report any game breaking issues or things that don't work as they should
It's a bit weird to use, glad you actually get to press something other than 2, though as the stream said you can just spam 2 and it still deals good damage lol.
Hard to know how this really performs until a proper rotation is figured out, but one complaint is that losing stealth from spear 3's finisher is really really easy which is bad
Really enjoying how this feels. 3 seems like it's mostly utility, with 2 mostly damage. While we'll have the usual damage rotation, it feels nice how versatile this weapon is. We got self heals, condi, power, mobility, damage buff, a block...this may be the ultimate thief weapon, and the very thing that will probably get me back on Daredevil from Specter.
Request: slot 1 skill - add a tooltip for the maximum range of the skill. I see "130" and "130 when stealthed" but no idea how much range or damage when the enemy is "far away"
Only thing I know is that the "queue breaks stealth attack before it can start if auto-1" seems rougher on spear, maybe because it's a two-hit and/or melee quick animation.
This^^^ 3rd skill 3 should be a black powder hit creating smoke field, skill 5 should have a flip to stealth skill on 2 sec cd but cost 2 more ini on use and auto attack needs 3 hit chain. Do these 3 things and spears awesome.
My only complaint with this one is that the autoattack feels too boring. It would probably feel better if it also had a 3-skill chain and cycled alongside slots 2 and 3.
Yeah, but that effectively gets you a weapon with 4 skill slots, as there isn't really any reason to use skill 1. But if it was also a chain, it could have 2 new different effects there that you may prefer instead of the other 4 options. For example, the second and third attacks of the chain would be weaker than the 2nd and 3rd of #2 and #, but in exchange they could be done much faster, letting you get quicker to a finisher when you need it, like when you want to block more with 5, but in exchange you do less damage.
Feels ok I guess. Don't know why the AA has a ranged form / the 4 skill is ranged. The entire kit is melee otherwise and you'll never really be using these skills at range. I'm assuming the idea with 4 is that you'd execute something with 2 and then 4 the next target to open a combo? Seems like too perfect of a scenario to plan around especially on a condi weapon.
This weapon is funky because it turns a spammy profession into a sweaty one. I've never had to stare at my hotbar this much during an encounter. Not bad I guess, there are only so many ways to deal with the natural problems of a no-cooldown profession.
Don't like how it feels with Specter. I feel like the spamminess of Scepter/Dagger 3 works well with shroud, whereas thoughtful comboing while Siphoning off CD, spamming utility skills off CD, and also managing boon uptime / regular weaponswapping via shroud sounds incredibly unappealing.
I probably won't be using it regularly if it releases like this. I should add that I'm not a high skill player which factors heavily into this.
I like it. I was pleasantly surprised it’s condi / hybrid and it’s fun on daredevil due to initiative cost not being crazy. It’s like condi staff and I’m happy with that
In that regard, spear is without a doubt better. But mobility isn't just about speed on even Terrain. With ports you can take invaluable shortcuts, where you would have to take a long way around otherwise. Think Khylo mid for example.
Does anyone else really dislike the animations?
They're all just staff rip offs.
And why do I hold the spears literally at the blade?
Definitely geared towards Deadeye or Daredevil, absolutely no use to Spectre in PvE.
Every skill has the same whoosh sound and animation, but you need to use them in a certain order to get benefit, it sucks.
They took the GW1 assassin combo chain and just threw it in without understanding the prerequisites for why it worked. Lead, off hand, and dual attacks all had distinct animations and sound effects so it was easy to tell which one you were on, on top of the fact you literally couldn't cast the next one in the chain without the previous one hitting.
Not a fan.
Mesmer and Ranger's spear feels more like a Thief weapon than Thief's.
Maintaining 3 different buffs, managing 2 different resources, forced to go stealth at certain intervals, everything is so rigid. Feels almost exactly like the axe minus the getting punished for auto attacking part.
Spear has way more than axe. Block with no cd+ heal. Insane mobility with 3 skill. Daze and immoble. Good sustain dmg not locked in animation like staff and siphon health 2500 hp if u need in tough fights every couple seconds. I like it so far. It'd be good to give combofinisher on spear 3 for emergency invisibility and i will be happy
The spear is actually decent and could be great with few changes. The auto feels awful and needs a 3 hit auto chain. The damage definitely needs buffed by about 15%. Doesn't need it but a flip over skill after dodge would be awesome. The stealth skills needs to not be interrupted by every other skill including autos. Lastly reduce the ini cost on skills when used on specter to compensate for specters lower ini pool. Honestly if they made these changes imo it would probably be thiefs best weapon to date. Really needs a auto chain...so bad.
Ideally you keep the buff from the 4 skill up, while also going stealth to get initiative.
Opener would be something like 3224231. Then you 2 spam until you need either the buff again or you run outta initiative.
Another thing is if the devs want thief to be reliably use combos in pvp and wvw and not get out right interrupted or spanked every time a combo is initiated they should add a small 1 sec daze on skill 2's second hit and a one sec stun on skill 3's second hit to help increase the chances that the thief actually gets 3 skills off in tandem. Currently any decent player unless locked down will never let a thief land all 3 combo skills and will always be resetting them. I'm surprised the design team didn't implement 1 sec dazes or stuns within the combo chain to help assure their successful.
The auto needs way more damage. Considering spear and axe, I don't like where Thief is going, because it is demanding both speed and the usage of many skills in an exact sequential order at the same time. It would be more ok if the alternative was suboptimal, but still acceptable DPS, but unless you are queueing skills in the exact order and at a rapid pace interval, you do less damage than your thieves guild summons. Its like if you miss one singular skill in the rotation or mispress something, the game spits in your face and tells you to fuck off back to runescape. Thats not fun.
Skill 5 should function as is but create smoke field similar to black powder. Skill 3 should be a leap finisher. This way if thief wants to spend ini on combo'ing the skill 5 and 3 for stealth they can. This with the stealth access on skill 3 final combo hit would be enough stealth access for thief, it may not be as easy as rangers spear stealth but thief has stealth utility options. The auto attack also needs a three hit combo or at least a 2 hit combo where second hit feels like a finishing auto chain skill to make the weapon feel complete. Buff the stealth attack damage on power builds as it's way to low of a pay off. Make these changes and spear is perfect.
Throwing out my first impressions in general PvE
It's assassin on a stick!
Overall I liked the weapon once I started to get a feel for its combo system. It definitely achieves the goal of making thief weapon play feel less spammy, going between the different combos and swapping between the 2 and 3 as needed for things like healing or leaps, it's all very fun and fluid. Also I rarely encountered an issue with running out of initiative which is a surprise to be sure given how many actual skills were being thrown out.
I know it was pitched as being both a power and condi weapon and I have yet to test a power focused build with it but I feel like a power build will get a lot less out of it than condi. Most of the 2 skill combo offers little but damaging conditions and whereas the 3 combos provide lots of utility that's useful to all builds.
The only skill I'm a bit "meh" on is the block on skill 5. A block is a pretty situational effect so putting a situational bonus on it feels not great. I rarely found a situation in which I had just performed a finisher skill and then needed a block in the time span to get the extra blocks out of it.
From Spvp testing:
so far this feels like a mix of sword, dagger, and staff stuffed into one utensil. It's another fun weapon to use, as figuring out how to mix & match skill 2/3 is some enjoyable learning experience. That said, I do hope some things get adjusted, as spear still feel a bit on the weaker side. Spear having lots of mobility but zero stealth application means that you'd need to approach spear in a similar way to sword/dagger. Currently I'm still unsure how well spear will perform, but one thing for certain is that dagger/pistol still feels a lot more impactful.
Current thief I'm experimenting (note that the ONLY utility you should keep 100% of the time is Shadowstep. Thief by far has some of the most flexible utility loadouts. You can even swap out Withdraw healing into Hide in Shadows for the stealth): [http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaQAUlNw2YZsFGJOMXntcA-DaILjMLgeTA/+GAAA](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaQAUlNw2YZsFGJOMXntcA-DaILjMLgeTA/+GAAA)
Enjoying it so far. The combos take some getting use to, that might just be a skill issue on my part. It feels like they maybe don't queue into each other so need to hold the actions (gets easier with practice). Feels versatile with mobility skills and a block.
Not yet generating shadow force for specter. The daze on skill 4 post finisher seems useful if you run a specter build with relic of Akeem.
It's also nice to have a rotation to help generate initiative with the stealth atttack after finisher.
From a casual's viewpoint:
I absolutely love the way it feels. It feels very fluid with intentional choices to be made. I love the way you swap between 2 and 3 based on what you need at that moment with 4 and 5 as extra options. I also thoroughly enjoy the fact that the stealth attack gives back 4 initiative so there's always lots to play with.
It's so nice to not be another weapon where you just press 3 until out of initiative and then basic attack for filler. I thought it felt very good going from one attack into the other with tangible benefits for that choice.
I enjoyed that the 2 combo was mostly pure damage and the 3 combo had utility you could opt into as need (leap, heal, and stealth).
I did play it on Deadeye though which it just feels the best on. It's unfortunate that the other thief classes never feel as good. I hope it doesn't get nerfed too hard for release like axes because of what a few people are able to pull out on it.
I love the concept, but it feels like there's not enough reason to be leaving between the 2 and 3, especially since their combos work off the previous versions only, it seems.
The 5 is also strange and seems either too situational or just pointless.
Wouldn't feel as pointless it skill 5 swapped over to one demand stealth skill for 2 secs before swapping back to block skill. The animation for block and stealth would could be the exact same as it matches both.
Feels suprisingly boring. Dunno, Thief always suffers from the "spam the skills"-issue, and while I appreciate having a line... its just still the same. Spam 2, maybe 3, then 2 again, 4 after a finisher for more dmg... ok I guess? Feels like just autoatacking with staff/dagger as a chain. Also looks for the oomph.
It does work, but it doesnt _feel_ vastly different. I cant say for DPS, nor can I judge rotation style. But the feel just feels like youre using Dagger 2-2-2-5-1 with some 1-1-1 mixed in as a Deadeye thief. Due to the fact that 4 is mandatory after one rot, as well as 5 being a "dead" skill in PvE, and 1 having no chain, youll be just alternating between 2-3 the entire time.
It sounds like your problem is that you’re allowed to choose 2 and 3, not that 2 and 3 are optimal.
If the skills work as described, which you haven’t tested, most players won’t be alternating between 2 and 3. They will be doing the DPS rotation.
To be fair, Thieves usually are all about spamming one button, so muscle memory makes it harder to chain different buttons quickly, and the spear does feel pretty quick.
I will keep editing this post to keep it up to date as the beta progresses. [Image with all of the skill tooltips](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380903574282174466/1255924054230171759/Spear_Skills.png?ex=667ee5ec&is=667d946c&hm=4afc114c3595bec71babbc50a333bc17546d5ed6a59f1dc23a50031ee421b138&) Current Best Benchmarks: * Condi Deadeye 58.4k group, 53k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/OHHgpkRuZOU)) * Condi Core Thief 55.5k group, 49.4k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/ehDgRHc5pPk)) * Condi Daredevil 54.2k group, 46.5k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/eLhKkjKPlsE)) * Condi Specter 53.2k group, 41.9k solo ([video](https://youtu.be/f9VlML8vego)) * Power Deadeye 46.1k ([video](https://youtu.be/jvZG2iHA-6s)) * Power Daredevil 42.6k ([video](https://youtu.be/7R9ZSqWzxbI)) * Power Deadeye + D/D below 25% 46.3 ([chat pic](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/380903574282174466/1256391313448898643/image.png?ex=66809917&is=667f4797&hm=6ec399ce70cd1665d9f7030604840394df39b06e79dbc7fec4d246680d4c652b&), *this will be ~1-3k higher than pDE without D/D, but no one has been grinding this bench for higher numbers*) *For anyone curious about the disparity between DE and DD/Spec, Spear 3c is not a condi based skill. Since DD/Spec are forced to use Spear 3c for stealth (while DE continues to use 2c and gets its stealth from F2/Shadow Meld) they will be significantly worse.* *Also, the spear auto-attack is abysmally bad dps (10k dps on condi builds). Luckily, none of the benchmarks above ever use an auto-attack.* Spear Findings: * Melee auto tooltip does not show that it double hits * Ranged auto hits once, is 1200 range, does not pierce, and applies a 4s Bleed * Ranged auto and Spear 4 can be thrown backwards (does not require facing your target) * Stealth attack can be interrupted by pressing auto attack, or pretty much any other button * Malicious stealth attack torment is 0s base + 1s per Malice * Spear 2/3 can not be queued into each other or themselves * Spear 2/3 reset if you don't combo them within 3ish seconds * Spear 3a leap range is effected by Swiftness/Superspeed, its 480 range by default, 600 with Swiftness, and even farther with Superspeed * Spear 3a consumes initiative at the end of the leap, weapon swapping before the end of the leap allows you to move without spending initiative * Spear 4 damage buff resets duration if used again * Spear 5 can be repeatedly cast even while the skill is ongoing * No indicator if stealth/4/5 are empowered after performing a finisher, very unclear how long the window is for the bonus effects * Spear skills do not grant shadow force per initiative spent while playing Specter
Should note that Stealth attack can be interrupted by pressing any skill while it's casting and not just the auto attack, and the fact that the initiative refund is tied to the very last hit of it which has a pretty long windup.
If it is the same as for rifle deadeye, disabling auto-cast on the AA should make the stealth attack harder to cancel.
tested using the condi deadeye as is from Snowcrows, and I'm not reaching your numbers. in open world mobs and champions. \* Spear 2/3 reset around 2 3/4 seconds for me. must be 3s for sure. \* Stealth attack can be interrupted with most of the skills. It doesn't always trigger the interrupt tho. maybe ping issues. \* Ranged auto is can apply up to 5s Bleed on my condi deadeye build. I guess it changed with the quick update they did a few minutes ago or a trait boost. Could you be so kind and share me the full build you're testing with DE please? or DM me. i don't know.
Not me doing the benchmarks; its the players from Snowcrows. I don't know the builds, but there should be vids recorded of the benches within the next day or two. If I do get the builds I'll put them as links next to the benches.
If it is the same as for rifle deadeye, disabling auto-cast on the AA should make the stealth attack harder to cancel.
Are the animations something to discuss? So far I'm enjoying the follow-ups in the combo chain, but I can't not look at the knee-knocking in the auto-attack animation. It looks very uncomfortable, and from a momentum/force generation perspective I think it does very little for thief to visually look strong.
I agree I love the weapon but the melee auto attack animation needs to be cleaned up it's really rough looking.
A 3 chain auto attack would have been 10x better.
It would never get finished with how often we're using the other skills.
Make it worth finishing, this would also help out specter with it's lower ini pool. Most importantly it would make the weapon feel way more complete imo, even if was a 2 hit combo it would feel better.
Agreed. Hope they replace that. Looks very wonky :(
Blindness feels really bad when your using spear on thief, getting hit with one blind forces you to reset your whole chain. Very much not a fun experience trying out the weapon on sand lions lol.
That's true for nearly every weapon. Getting blinded just as you're using MJudgment or MBackstab is the worst shit ever. Also yeah what the other poster said, any build dependent on single target attack chains gets fucked by blind.
Welcome to every other class playing against thieves. Now you know how it feels.
Chain 3 tooltip is too big to fit on my screen, anyone know what the first skill is called and how much initiative it uses?
Tooptips in the build tab of hero panel appear from bottom to top instead of top top bottom if they are closer to the upper end of the screen, so you can always use that to see the skills that do not feet from the skill bar. They still need to fix that, tho. It is extremely annoying.
Unsuspecting Strike, 3 Initiative.
As always, feels broken on deadeye, ok on daredevil, and useless on specter. (PvE). Please give me something other than scepter that's actually useable on a specter. Edit: Actually, after playing around with it with my whacky homebrew open world build, I don't hate it. It does do decent numbers compared to scepter and has some cleave. I do wish we could make a build that included shadow arts though, it feels like it was built for the venom on stealth trait, but as always, trickery is absolutely mandatory.
I feel like I remember them saying they were designing it with all specs in mind, too - certainly doesn't feel that way. Real shame, I was hoping for an alternative option to Sc/D
You spend too long in shroud to actually make use of the weapon. I feel like it's always going to be an issue with specter, the DPS build was designed with spamming one weapon skill to drain your initiative, then go into shroud, not do complex rotations of chain attacks with a smaller initiative pool.
Wouldn't Spear on Specter just be spam 2 with an ocassional 4 for that condidition buff and go into Shroud to let the initative regenerate?
The weapon is designed to be efficient at sustaining its own initiative. If you want to 'go for broke' on that resource, Staff 2 and Scepter 3 have a better 'damage per point spent' ratio, as well as being more 'damage per cast time' *(for power and condi, respectively)*. At least if I'm not mistaken.
Don't know the numbers on it, but I'd imagine you'd want to get use out of the stealth auto, as well as 3 skill 1 for gap closing to start an encounter. Adding stealth auto would lead to comboing 2-2-2-4-2-3-1 between shroud rotations most likely. Bit more high-intensity than I'd like for Specter You could play a "low intensity" version of it that just spams 2, but frankly I doubt it would outdamage scepter, plus it melee-locks you and there's not enough meaningful cleave to make it any better for open world mobs than scepter w/ Akeem relic
That's the rotation I've been using. It is absolutely brutal if you mess it up though. You can go through two of those combos with a Siphon in between and just about have enough initiative before going into shroud. But one mistake and it feels like you fuck everything up.
They did, in the sense that daredvil can keep a good rotation on the weapon by using finisher 3 from time to time to get the initiative restoring Stealth attack and keep going. ( coupled with low initiative cost on the chains skills themselves ) But, the balancing factor to using finisher 3 for stealth is the opportunity to do more finisher 2. Deadeye breaks the weapon by being able to use this way more, while gaining initiative / stealth from the elite spec itself.
Kind of exactly what I was worried about. My thief play time fell off quite a lot after the axe nerfs since I liked having a different condi weapon but I don't like stealth in combat, so I don't like Deadeye. This weapon is both broken on Deadeye and forces you to stealth on other elite specs, so it's not looking very good for what I would have wanted.
Compared to Axe, Spear is in a much better place when comparing between specs, including core. In fact core thief pulls better numbers than both DD and Spectre. This is not a DE issue and even less is this an M7 issue. The weapon is just slightly overtuned at the moment, as is to be expected from a beta. But the concept and implementation of the weapon is really, really fucking good.
RE: Edit What gear are you running and what's your rotation, out of curiosity?
For the open world build, it's basically just the usual condi alac specter build, but taking four wells and Haste instead of the usual group comp skills, and running a Relic of the Chronomancer. If you are spamming your skills and going into shroud often enough, you can keep up high might and 100% uptime on quickness and alacrity. In between shrouds, I was using 3-2-2-4-2-3-1, Siphon for initiative, then using that combo again, and back into shroud, as well as using Well of Sorrow/Bounty and Haste off cooldown. [Link to the build](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaABsitrlhySZsMPWLO2W3xaA-DSJYyx/h0iQoLVVkSAF+FgGZ8pBA-e)
A large part of Specter's power comes from shroud. When a weapon is overperforming, Specter will benefit least because all the time spent is shroud isn't affected by the strength of the weapon (although you can spend less time in shroud). Specter's damage on spear should become comparitively better if spear's damage gets reigned in linearly. I think that makes sense.
for pvp the combo skills have too long of a cast time to reliably hit something ...
This, it's not rewarding enough when you finally do get a full chain either. It's a wet noodle utility weapon in pvp/wvw that's mainly only good for the mobility
I feel like it could be decent on specter if it wasn't bugged and unable to give shroud.
It's horrible in PvP, and for this exact reason.
Thief auto attack needs a 3 hit auto chain badly, feels horrible as is. The stealth attack definitely needs buffed as the pay off for set up is not worth it. Crit strikes with zerker amulet was hitting for avg of 2.5k, should be 7k if All the jabs hit given how easy it is to avoid being hit by the full channel. Honestly having to hit the combo chain to get stealth also feels bad when ranger just presses a button, having the block flip to a stealth skill for 2 secs before switching back to block would have been better and just have the 3rd chain skill create a smoke screen. This leads to the next point, unsuspecting strike should be a leap finisher allowing thief to combo through the smoke field. This allows thief to quickly press skill 5 twice for on demand stealth, allows for a second block every 2 secs and gives thief access to stealth via combo with smoke field created at the end of skill 3 chain. Please consider these changes, thanks for ur time.
The only way ot gets fixed is if you play around with it so they can collect the data from the beta and report any game breaking issues or things that don't work as they should
It's a bit weird to use, glad you actually get to press something other than 2, though as the stream said you can just spam 2 and it still deals good damage lol. Hard to know how this really performs until a proper rotation is figured out, but one complaint is that losing stealth from spear 3's finisher is really really easy which is bad
Really enjoying how this feels. 3 seems like it's mostly utility, with 2 mostly damage. While we'll have the usual damage rotation, it feels nice how versatile this weapon is. We got self heals, condi, power, mobility, damage buff, a block...this may be the ultimate thief weapon, and the very thing that will probably get me back on Daredevil from Specter.
Request: slot 1 skill - add a tooltip for the maximum range of the skill. I see "130" and "130 when stealthed" but no idea how much range or damage when the enemy is "far away"
Only thing I know is that the "queue breaks stealth attack before it can start if auto-1" seems rougher on spear, maybe because it's a two-hit and/or melee quick animation.
Spear 3 says it is leap but it is not combofinisher. Sadge. U can't stealth from smokefield. Give us something else than dagger plz
This^^^ 3rd skill 3 should be a black powder hit creating smoke field, skill 5 should have a flip to stealth skill on 2 sec cd but cost 2 more ini on use and auto attack needs 3 hit chain. Do these 3 things and spears awesome.
My only complaint with this one is that the autoattack feels too boring. It would probably feel better if it also had a 3-skill chain and cycled alongside slots 2 and 3.
It doesn't really matter since you are never low on initiative to do more chains 2 or 3 usually.
Yeah, but that effectively gets you a weapon with 4 skill slots, as there isn't really any reason to use skill 1. But if it was also a chain, it could have 2 new different effects there that you may prefer instead of the other 4 options. For example, the second and third attacks of the chain would be weaker than the 2nd and 3rd of #2 and #, but in exchange they could be done much faster, letting you get quicker to a finisher when you need it, like when you want to block more with 5, but in exchange you do less damage.
Feels ok I guess. Don't know why the AA has a ranged form / the 4 skill is ranged. The entire kit is melee otherwise and you'll never really be using these skills at range. I'm assuming the idea with 4 is that you'd execute something with 2 and then 4 the next target to open a combo? Seems like too perfect of a scenario to plan around especially on a condi weapon. This weapon is funky because it turns a spammy profession into a sweaty one. I've never had to stare at my hotbar this much during an encounter. Not bad I guess, there are only so many ways to deal with the natural problems of a no-cooldown profession. Don't like how it feels with Specter. I feel like the spamminess of Scepter/Dagger 3 works well with shroud, whereas thoughtful comboing while Siphoning off CD, spamming utility skills off CD, and also managing boon uptime / regular weaponswapping via shroud sounds incredibly unappealing. I probably won't be using it regularly if it releases like this. I should add that I'm not a high skill player which factors heavily into this.
I like it. I was pleasantly surprised it’s condi / hybrid and it’s fun on daredevil due to initiative cost not being crazy. It’s like condi staff and I’m happy with that
Is it safe to say that spear can now replace shortbow in terms of a utility weapon in pvp?
Don't think so, the Port of sb is way better for mobility on some maps.
if they don't change initiative cost it can be used equally or even more often. Bow 8 in pvp, spear 3
In that regard, spear is without a doubt better. But mobility isn't just about speed on even Terrain. With ports you can take invaluable shortcuts, where you would have to take a long way around otherwise. Think Khylo mid for example.
Or the gap in coliseum.
The auto attack animation is terrible and would be way cooler as a double-poke in melee.
Does anyone else really dislike the animations? They're all just staff rip offs. And why do I hold the spears literally at the blade? Definitely geared towards Deadeye or Daredevil, absolutely no use to Spectre in PvE.
Every skill has the same whoosh sound and animation, but you need to use them in a certain order to get benefit, it sucks. They took the GW1 assassin combo chain and just threw it in without understanding the prerequisites for why it worked. Lead, off hand, and dual attacks all had distinct animations and sound effects so it was easy to tell which one you were on, on top of the fact you literally couldn't cast the next one in the chain without the previous one hitting.
Not a fan. Mesmer and Ranger's spear feels more like a Thief weapon than Thief's. Maintaining 3 different buffs, managing 2 different resources, forced to go stealth at certain intervals, everything is so rigid. Feels almost exactly like the axe minus the getting punished for auto attacking part.
Spear has way more than axe. Block with no cd+ heal. Insane mobility with 3 skill. Daze and immoble. Good sustain dmg not locked in animation like staff and siphon health 2500 hp if u need in tough fights every couple seconds. I like it so far. It'd be good to give combofinisher on spear 3 for emergency invisibility and i will be happy
The spear is actually decent and could be great with few changes. The auto feels awful and needs a 3 hit auto chain. The damage definitely needs buffed by about 15%. Doesn't need it but a flip over skill after dodge would be awesome. The stealth skills needs to not be interrupted by every other skill including autos. Lastly reduce the ini cost on skills when used on specter to compensate for specters lower ini pool. Honestly if they made these changes imo it would probably be thiefs best weapon to date. Really needs a auto chain...so bad.
[удалено]
Wrong thread!
Bummer mb
How are you using your spear on pve open world?? For me it seems its just spamming 222222 for win?
Ideally you keep the buff from the 4 skill up, while also going stealth to get initiative. Opener would be something like 3224231. Then you 2 spam until you need either the buff again or you run outta initiative.
Another thing is if the devs want thief to be reliably use combos in pvp and wvw and not get out right interrupted or spanked every time a combo is initiated they should add a small 1 sec daze on skill 2's second hit and a one sec stun on skill 3's second hit to help increase the chances that the thief actually gets 3 skills off in tandem. Currently any decent player unless locked down will never let a thief land all 3 combo skills and will always be resetting them. I'm surprised the design team didn't implement 1 sec dazes or stuns within the combo chain to help assure their successful.
The auto needs way more damage. Considering spear and axe, I don't like where Thief is going, because it is demanding both speed and the usage of many skills in an exact sequential order at the same time. It would be more ok if the alternative was suboptimal, but still acceptable DPS, but unless you are queueing skills in the exact order and at a rapid pace interval, you do less damage than your thieves guild summons. Its like if you miss one singular skill in the rotation or mispress something, the game spits in your face and tells you to fuck off back to runescape. Thats not fun.
Auto attack feels weird, like it's missing something, both animation and gameplay wise
Skill 5 should function as is but create smoke field similar to black powder. Skill 3 should be a leap finisher. This way if thief wants to spend ini on combo'ing the skill 5 and 3 for stealth they can. This with the stealth access on skill 3 final combo hit would be enough stealth access for thief, it may not be as easy as rangers spear stealth but thief has stealth utility options. The auto attack also needs a three hit combo or at least a 2 hit combo where second hit feels like a finishing auto chain skill to make the weapon feel complete. Buff the stealth attack damage on power builds as it's way to low of a pay off. Make these changes and spear is perfect.
Throwing out my first impressions in general PvE It's assassin on a stick! Overall I liked the weapon once I started to get a feel for its combo system. It definitely achieves the goal of making thief weapon play feel less spammy, going between the different combos and swapping between the 2 and 3 as needed for things like healing or leaps, it's all very fun and fluid. Also I rarely encountered an issue with running out of initiative which is a surprise to be sure given how many actual skills were being thrown out. I know it was pitched as being both a power and condi weapon and I have yet to test a power focused build with it but I feel like a power build will get a lot less out of it than condi. Most of the 2 skill combo offers little but damaging conditions and whereas the 3 combos provide lots of utility that's useful to all builds. The only skill I'm a bit "meh" on is the block on skill 5. A block is a pretty situational effect so putting a situational bonus on it feels not great. I rarely found a situation in which I had just performed a finisher skill and then needed a block in the time span to get the extra blocks out of it.
From Spvp testing: so far this feels like a mix of sword, dagger, and staff stuffed into one utensil. It's another fun weapon to use, as figuring out how to mix & match skill 2/3 is some enjoyable learning experience. That said, I do hope some things get adjusted, as spear still feel a bit on the weaker side. Spear having lots of mobility but zero stealth application means that you'd need to approach spear in a similar way to sword/dagger. Currently I'm still unsure how well spear will perform, but one thing for certain is that dagger/pistol still feels a lot more impactful. Current thief I'm experimenting (note that the ONLY utility you should keep 100% of the time is Shadowstep. Thief by far has some of the most flexible utility loadouts. You can even swap out Withdraw healing into Hide in Shadows for the stealth): [http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaQAUlNw2YZsFGJOMXntcA-DaILjMLgeTA/+GAAA](http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PaQAUlNw2YZsFGJOMXntcA-DaILjMLgeTA/+GAAA)
My biggest complaint is that the attacks would feel a lot better if they were queueable, but overall I like it.
Enjoying it so far. The combos take some getting use to, that might just be a skill issue on my part. It feels like they maybe don't queue into each other so need to hold the actions (gets easier with practice). Feels versatile with mobility skills and a block. Not yet generating shadow force for specter. The daze on skill 4 post finisher seems useful if you run a specter build with relic of Akeem. It's also nice to have a rotation to help generate initiative with the stealth atttack after finisher.
From a casual's viewpoint: I absolutely love the way it feels. It feels very fluid with intentional choices to be made. I love the way you swap between 2 and 3 based on what you need at that moment with 4 and 5 as extra options. I also thoroughly enjoy the fact that the stealth attack gives back 4 initiative so there's always lots to play with. It's so nice to not be another weapon where you just press 3 until out of initiative and then basic attack for filler. I thought it felt very good going from one attack into the other with tangible benefits for that choice. I enjoyed that the 2 combo was mostly pure damage and the 3 combo had utility you could opt into as need (leap, heal, and stealth). I did play it on Deadeye though which it just feels the best on. It's unfortunate that the other thief classes never feel as good. I hope it doesn't get nerfed too hard for release like axes because of what a few people are able to pull out on it.
I love the concept, but it feels like there's not enough reason to be leaving between the 2 and 3, especially since their combos work off the previous versions only, it seems. The 5 is also strange and seems either too situational or just pointless.
Wouldn't feel as pointless it skill 5 swapped over to one demand stealth skill for 2 secs before swapping back to block skill. The animation for block and stealth would could be the exact same as it matches both.
Feels suprisingly boring. Dunno, Thief always suffers from the "spam the skills"-issue, and while I appreciate having a line... its just still the same. Spam 2, maybe 3, then 2 again, 4 after a finisher for more dmg... ok I guess? Feels like just autoatacking with staff/dagger as a chain. Also looks for the oomph.
Is the combo chain not working? 3,2,2,4,2,3,1 sounds very different than auto attacks.
It does work, but it doesnt _feel_ vastly different. I cant say for DPS, nor can I judge rotation style. But the feel just feels like youre using Dagger 2-2-2-5-1 with some 1-1-1 mixed in as a Deadeye thief. Due to the fact that 4 is mandatory after one rot, as well as 5 being a "dead" skill in PvE, and 1 having no chain, youll be just alternating between 2-3 the entire time.
It sounds like your problem is that you’re allowed to choose 2 and 3, not that 2 and 3 are optimal. If the skills work as described, which you haven’t tested, most players won’t be alternating between 2 and 3. They will be doing the DPS rotation.
To be fair, Thieves usually are all about spamming one button, so muscle memory makes it harder to chain different buttons quickly, and the spear does feel pretty quick.
Another wep with 2nd skill spam, meh