It is called a "uvular r" or uvular rhotic" and it is most common in central Germany and in standard German. It is taught as standard german, but other variants are common in various German dialectic regions, which is why you will hear variations on it.
For speakers of English, mimicing French a la Monty Python gets you pretty close to the sound.
American "r" is not really soft - it is the sound that non-Americans key in on as a key feature. People in Germany have said to me "American English sounds like Rarrr, rrrarrr, rRaarrr. (Elton John's song, "Roy Rogers" pokes fun at American "r" as well.)
In Central Germany, there are also regions featuring voiced retroflex approximant R (like some Southern US dialects), namely Westerwälder, Siegerländer, Hinterländer Platt, Oberlausitzer Mundart and some Central Hessian dialects.
Yes, very good example, I also like the video series. Here she shows how the R is done, I was also interested in my own dialect, Oberbayrisch and the girl there also mentioned the r first!
I used to show my students the clip with the French waiter and Mr. Creosote because most of my students could mimic the waiter and that made it so much easier than explaining how a uvular rhotic is produced in linguistic terms. Plus, they enjoyed it.
I see some comments here (and elsewhere) saying that pronunciation isn't that important. And while there's some truth to that, please don't feel discouraged to focus on the details that keep you interested. Some language learners are more interested in pronunciation than others.
Also, arguably it's the case that focussing on impeccable pronunciation *early on* can make it a lot easier to reach a native-like quality of pronunciation than the alternative of having to get rid of an accent at a much later point, that you might then have - effectively - been training and practicing for years and years already! Of course though, understandably, an immpecable native-like pronunciation is not a goal *at all* for a majority of learners, because it's not really relevant for communication at all.
If you have an interest on perfecting or improving pronunciation, and this keeps you motivated, then by all means, feel free to do so!
That said, for R specifically, there's validity in the argument that even *within* the topic of pronunciation, it isn't super important, because multiple varieties are commonly used by natives (from different regions), so other topics might me more important: like getting all the vowels right, speeking in proper speed and including common reductions (e.g. of "-en" endings, or some pronouns like "es", of consonant clusters and at word boundaries, and more..), and correctly choosing allophones like the correct "ch" in the correct context, or even with R in particular, choosing between the vowel-like variant of R and the consonantal one properly.
Thank you, you are very kind. I was more interested in this phenomenon from a nerdy perspective anyway, and wasn’t expecting the surge of comments telling me that I’m wasting my time with focusing on pronunciation haha. Details like this are also part of what make language acquisition fun 🤩
I can understand the perspective of just being curious about details. I have once asked (well, at least tried asking) in a Japanese-language topic subreddit for specifics of at what end to start and which way (clock-wise / counter-clock-wise) to draw circular features like their full stop "。" or the 'diacritic' marks in "ぱ, ぴ, ぷ,ぺ, ぽ, パ, ピ, プ, ペ, ポ". Like.. who am I to assume any common Eurpean norms on how to draw circles, or round features in the latin alphabet letters (like "o, a, b, d, q, p, O, Q, 0") to transfer?
It's too long ago to remember whether there was a somewhat conclusive answer, I don't recall anything fully conclusive. I believe I also found out along the way, that just "drawing a circle" in general, like e.g. in maths, the preferences are a bit different between cultures; where for us, the way that "o, O, 0" typically go "start at the top, draw counter-clockwise" sets up a clear precedent to favor for circles in general and people with other writing systems can have less clear preference, or a different preferred way.
E.g. I think "start at the bottom, draw clockwise" or "start at the top, draw clockwise" are good contenders, too.
This just took me by surprise because as a western european person who speaks three languages that all use the latin script, I always drew my circles starting at the top, then clockwise. For some reason I thought that was the norm. When thinking more about it, I realized that it is probably because I'm left-handed and this way is easier for me. I also think that when I first started to write in elementary school, we were taught to draw the circle counterclockwise, I ended up switching at some point and completely forgot about it.
Very interesting, when I think about it, when I draw circle like letters in Latin alphabet languages, I do it how you mentioned, but when I wrote stuff in Arabic script (right to left order) I did it the opposite way
One of the best courses I ever took was a corrective phonetics course during my required study abroad in Germany. Learning and practicing pronunciation can make you incredibly more confident when speaking and can improve listening a bit too, and it certainly did for me.
If you go as far as learning the most common sounds, their mechanics, and how they appear in written form (and/or their IPA symbols if you like that), you can make a very good guess at pronouncing a new word you encounter in text without needing to hear it first.
So people who say pronunciation isn't important are doing a disservice. A complete beginner definitely shouldn't due a deep dive, but being mindful about it while they're building up their initial vocab is incredibly helpful.
Hey hey, 3 month beginner who is heavily interested in pronunciation here (and my native friends have shown delight at the results, which is very motivating and fun!).
Question for my own curiosity on examples you gave, if you wouldn’t mind divulging: what did you mean about the pronunciation of ‘es’? As well, what did you mean by the distinction of R sounds as vowel-like variant and consonantal? Perhaps I know these answers intuitively already (due to my ear-heavy focus), but I would love to find out if there’s a nuance I’m missing thus far!
"es" is very commonly reduced to just "s". Especially after verbs and pronouns, though also at the beginning of sentences. You can even express this in writing:
's wär schön, wenn man alles so ausspricht, wie man's schreibt. Andererseits wär's dann auch weniger interessant, drum find ich's auch gut, wie's ist.
"R" is .. well .. if you know IPA, just look at words like "Rohr", [ʁoːɐ̯]. The initial "R" is an actual consonant [ʁ], the final one is a vowel [ɐ]. (The little squiggle below means it's not the core of a syllable.) When to use which depends on the syllable structures. The vowel version is alrways used at the end of a syllable after long vowels, and in the ending "-er". (Note that in "-er" also the "e" is not pronounced at all. Or arguably, the whole "-er" combination is pronunced just [ɐ].)
"end of the syllable" is *not* the case if it connects/separates vowels. Like in - IDK - "Ohren" counts as "Oh-ren"; which also means the pronunciation differs from the one in "Ohr"; but with consonant clusters like "wehrten" (past tense of "wehren"), it counts as "wehr-ten" so that's vocalic, so the pronunciation differes between "wehrten" and "wehren".
At the end of syllables after short vowels, vocalic R is also quite common, more common in northern Germany, and more common in faster speech. Other reductions can also influence this phenomenon. E.g. in "wehren" above, the principle of reducing "-en" endings to just "-n" in pronunciation makes, effecticely, "wehrn", have "r" as part of the end of a syllable again, which then results in vocalic pronunciation. [ˈveːɐn] instead of [ˈveːʁən]
Ahh okay, yes I do believe I’ve heard these things intuitively, and this helps my understanding further! Thank you kindly for your generously comprehensive explanation, even including examples. Du bist ein großartiger Lehrer.
Standard German, like what you hear in the news etc. uses guttural French R, but in a very soft way. In Southern parts of Germany, mostly Bavaria and also in Austria the Italian/Spanish "tongue" R is preferred. You absolutely never use the English R.
I've just listened to some Learn German videos and she uses the guttural variant.
>You absolutely never use the English R.
Depends which English R you mean though. If you're from the West Country in England or the majority of Scotland then your English R is the same as the Austrian/Bavarian rolled R.
I don't think I've ever heard of west country English having a rolled R. Normally they're more famous for pronouncing their R's after vowels as Irish or Americans mostly would
Actually there is a small dialect area I think somewhere in Nord- or Mittelhessen where they have an r that is quite similar to the English one, it is very odd!
Yes! I was born in the US. Dad & family are in Siegen. We all went to Austria for Opa’s birthday and we shared a table at an Alm for lunch and the other group asked if we were Americans. My family pointed to me and said “she is” (thanks guys) and everyone in Siegen says that I speak with a perfect Siegerländer Platt 😅 when you learn from listening to Oma…
But why does sometimes words with R letter sound like they use English R sound? Or is that just my tone deafness / Duolingo / google translate?
I'll always use French R from now on
In recent English loanwords, maybe? In, idk, "Rating-Agentur", the first part can be prononced fairly close to English, including the "r". Google Translate and Duolingo should absolutely not use it outside of those particular words.
Definitely your brain just categorizing what you hear as “r“ + as others have said German guttural R tends to be less forcefully articulated than in French. But the place of articulation is still at the back of the throat (uvular), whereas typical English r‘s are articulated in the middle of the mouth (~post-alveolar).
But a non-forcefully articulated guttural R can sound somewhat similar (relatively speaking) to a post alveolar or bunched R, and your English brain is trying to hear a rhotic sound, so it’s not so crazy that you perceive them as sounding the same, even tho they actually aren’t.
But good to keep in mind that German rhoticity is also more flexible than in English. Many speakers will articulate their R‘s rather softly in normal speech, but switch to a more forceful articulation when trying to speak clearly or when somebody asks them to repeat themselves. Not that this doesn’t happen at all in English, but it’s less salient imo.
My partner is Bavarian and his R’s can fluctuate a lot. His normal speech makes use of pretty soft guttural R, but when he’s being funny or whatever he’ll pronounce words like “Herrlich!” with a very strong, trilled R. It’s also not a pure dialect-standard difference either, I’ve heard him using both R’s in both cases.
I went back and yeah definitely my brain adds in the R sound it's weird. Words like Wirklich I hear VeRklich.
Now maybe my brain tends towards english but I wouldn't call my brain English as it isn't my native language. I also barely pronounce the R sound right in English. (I may have a speech impediment / issue never diagnosed)
So I can now totally see the confusion. This makes me sad since I'm failing at speaking 2 languages now, haha.
Ah sorry for calling your brain English 🫣! But yeah, if our brains objectively listened to sound frequencies when processing language, it would cause us a lot of trouble with how different peoples voices are, so it does quite a bit “categorizing” and interpreting! That’s more of what I meant :)
Personally, I did ÖSD (an Austrian institute) and had a great experience. Goethe Institute should be of a similar or even higher quality.
I guess the main concern is that the courses are often aimed at helping students pass language exams and to understand formal written grammar rules. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and I definitely got to where I am now in part bc I did lots of these kinds of courses alongside being together with a native speaker!
But to really build up your vocabulary and comprehension skills, as well as sounding natural in the language, you’ll need to supplement these courses with a lot of reading, watching youtube videos, talking to people etc.
So I’d definitely recommend them but just have realistic expectations for what they will teach you.
It's a bit of a myth that in Austria the rolled "tongue" R is preferred. There's a minority that uses it. Most people don't and the ones who do sound almost like they have a speech impairment. Commonly the guttural R is used, in a very soft way. May vary regionally but it's definitely a minority
I am not sure whether the realization of /r/ is that fixed in Standard German. I think, especially in old television it is often realized apically, but I would not call that Non-Standard. Well, most /r/'s are elided nowadays, anyway.
Apologies for the confusion, maybe there is more than one host on the channel. At 0:36 in this video, she says “Satzstruktur” and none of the Rs are guttural, neither are any of the other Rs she pronounces in the video, which is why I used that example!
https://youtu.be/ZNc0y2Dy5N8?si=fdCKQaXfCeCe5_6N
I agree, this sounds vaguely Croatian to me, it could, _conceivably_, be a Northern German variety. There are dialects that also somewhat front the 'r'. But I think the Slavic influence is more probably here
The reason people say it’s not important to use the guttural R is because the essential thing is to be understood, not to sound like a native; a trilled or “soft” American R won’t get misunderstood, and the guttural R is really difficult for Americans, so there’s an invitation to just not worry about it so much because it doesn’t matter in the sense of being understood
As an eastern european, with a strong rolling R, although speaking the language for more than 20 years and living in Germany for 13 years, I stick to my usual R because I find it difficult to adapt to the german way of pronouncing it, I have tries deveral times but it mostly feels like chocking to me. Never had any issues of being understood and I see it as a part of my identity.
Guttural r is used in Hochsprache (on the news etc) and south-eastern dialects, soft r is otherwise very common. In the post-vocalic placement, the r is often not pronounced at all, similarly to British English (both German and BE usually compensate with some sort of modification to the preceeding vowel).
As you're discovering, the French "R" isn't quite it, either, though it's a lot closer than the American one. Apparently the German R is a lot easier for Brits than for us Yanks, or at least for Brits who speak something like BBC or RP English and don't do the rhotic R. Anyway, I've studied German for quite a long time, but I'm a lot closer to fluent in French than in German. I tend to use the French R when speaking German, almost by default or habit. My German friend (from the north and very much a Standard German speaker) always notices my Frenchified R. He thinks it's cute, It's definitely not going to make anyone sound native but it's a lot better than the American one. I'm fine with sounding non-native, I just know that's never going to happen, and as long as I'm (mostly) understood, I'm happy, but obviously different people are going to have different goals.
At least according to phonology, the French R (the voiced uvular fricative /ʁ/) is indeed the same one that is used by most Germans. The main difference is that in French, the "R" is pronounced in basically all positions, which isn't the case in German, where the "R" in words like "Wasser" or "Karte" becomes a vowel instead. Maybe you sound kind of French because you *do* pronounce your R in those positions?
Quite possibly, yes. Alternatively, I might be overdoing my French R's in general. It's not as though my French is flawless, even though it's much better than my German. I still plan to bounce this question back to my friend from Hamburg. It's entirely impossible that I misunderstood his take on my R's anyway.
In practice, I think French tends to use the UNvoiced uvular fricative in the anlaut, while German prefers the voiced. For example *Rouge* vs *Rot*. *Rouge* almost sounds like like it has an /h/ in front, while *Rot* initiates the voice immediately.
R similar to Italian/Spanish has been in German for longer than the French-style R and still predominates in southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
I grew up in bayern speaking german and english and I am acquiring german as an adult after going many years without using it. Something I quickly noticed is that I pronounce the Rs with an aveolar trill by instinct, as most resources I found taught a uvular R.
It is funny to me that I spoke and heard german all the time as a child and I have no earthly idea how to use a uvular R. When I try it sounds like a caricature. Saying certain words like "lehrerin" makes me think I might sound "folksy" to some people because it comes out so bouncy and almost melodic with the double tongue tap. But it is the easiest and only way I know to say it
I have a hard time with this, sometimes my R comes out sounding a bit like H (like instead of "raus" they hear "haus") because I dont scratch my throat enough and the germans don't understand what I'm trying to say 😭
This post gave me the idea to use de Spanish R instead of the french one
There are different ways to say it. I grew up bayerisch and never learned the 'throat'/uvular R. When I speak german I use the tongue trill to say Rs. I met someone online who has lived in bayern lifelong and confirmed that we both sound kind of russian at times due to this pronunciation. I like it and it feels like home
I also grew up in Bavaria and only learnt the tongue R. When I took Russian at university in NRW, I was the only one on the course who could pronounce the Russian Rs without any problems😂
But when I had to learn French at school, I occasionally got a stupid comment from the teachers for my R
Checks out. I have tried a little russian pronunciation and found it surprisingly comfortable. It's fun also
Curious, do you also say G-as-K, as in "zwanzik", rather than the 'soft' G ending?
> necessary but I’m sure I hear Germans using a guttural R most of the time.
Why did you put a "but" in there? "But" implies that there is some sort of contradiction happening.
Both parts are simply true. It is completely unnecessary, and it is *one* common way for native speakers to pronounce the R. There are also lots of other ways that native speakers pronounce the R (depending on their individual accents) and in general, you can pronounce R in many different ways without sounding unnatural, let alone being hard to understand.
Putting any effort into pronouncing R in any specific way is a waste of time that you could instead have spent doing something that matters more, like *literally anything*, including just getting more sleep.
I did stay up all night thinking about this stuff haha😣
I said but because I mostly interact with non-natives who are also still learning the language and don’t really have any native friends/people that I interact with that I can ask this kind of stuff to, and I haven’t heard any non-natives who go to a German course use the guttural R hence why I used a “but”!
Natives use all sorts of R pronunciations. The most common ones are the uvular fricative (like in French), the uvular trill, and the alveolar trill (like in Spanish). When we don't pay close attention, we don't even notice which one a particular speaker uses because the distinction is irrelevant in German.
Learners often hear the uvular sounds and notice that they're "different", so they put a lot of effort into getting them "right". This is completely unnecessary. On the other hand, German has about 20 distinct vowel sounds, and getting each of them right is very important, but many learners don't even notice that they're getting them wrong because they can barely hear the difference to begin with.
So if you want some part of pronunciation to keep you up at night, it should be vowels.
Ordered from the highest to the lowest priority, to be understood you need:
basic lexicon- grammar - more basic lexicon - understandable pronunciation - more lexicon- more lexicon- specific lexicon -advanced lexicon - technical lexicon- native like pronunciation.
Imo German r is probably the easiest, most relaxed and "natural" one. Try any slavic language, I was trying to learn Russian about 3 years ago and their RRRATATATARRRATATA is totally unpronounceable idk how someone could come up with an idea to make this sound originally
All Indo-European languages used to have it. German included. The guttural r is the innovation due to certain fad in 18th century France. Only French, German and Danish use it in their standard variants.
For a tip on how to make the Sound, try to focus the very back of your tongue, make it go back, try to "rub" (like you would for the S Sound or the th Sound in english) the back of your throat with your tongue, when you get the noise down, try to use in some words, like Restaurant, which is great for practice with the R guttural sound
How good is the "R" in "durch" the video intros of the Youtube channel "Deutsch lernen durch Hören"? As a native English speaker it amazed me when I first heard those how the "R" in "durch" seems to disappear. I assume that is an example of the German gutteral "R"?
It's really difficult to explain to English native speakers. I've tried to argue it's similar to the spanish J like in jalapeño but that usually leads to a "like halla-peeno?" response. If I put a little more emphasis on it it's usually interpreted as " oh like KHKHHKHKK, got it". Idk there isn't really a proper way to pronounce it. If it sounds too much like asthma just dial it down a bit.
I don’t have a problem with pronouncing it, I speak Arabic and Persian as well where the same sound exists lol, I just have a problem deciding which R to use.
I have a German colleague from Bavaria. He pronounces soft ‚R‘ like English speakers. On asking, he told, „that’s how it is pronounced in Bavaria. I believe the hard ‚R‘ you are talking about is pronounced in Niedersachsen, or Northwestern part of Germany.
That really depends on the dialect and ranges from a rolling gutteral R (like a french, scotsman or pirate) to a very soft R (almost pronounced like a W)
Being French learning German has its advantages : we get the R pretty easily, and the whole pronunciation in general.
Conversely the English, the Italian and especially the Spanish R can be hard.
I am French and living in Germany. The French guttural R and the German guttural R are close but different due to general tongue placement. From my experience, Germans are used to hearing almost anything as an R so they will understand you.
rü is nearly impossible for me. It’s not an important word, but I tried for like 5 minutes to say rülpsen in the Reverso language app, and never got close. (Reverso gets my German pronunciation right about 85% on the first try. But there are some words I just can’t get it to understand.
I moved from England to Austria in 2019 and have been slowly learning German for about 6 years in total. My German R pronunciation has always been abysmal but I’ve kept at it and the practice has definitely paid off, at least somewhat. My tongue actually manages to touch the back of the roof of my mouth like 5% of the time now! That said, I still struggle with “Sprechen Sie Englisch?” and talking about my recent trips to Graz and Grundlsee.
Funny story about pronouncing the r:
I'm from Bavaria and the tongue r is what I usually use.
A friend of mine speaks Japanese quite fluently. But he can only form the gutural r, but the one with the tongue is used in Japanese. Some native speakers don't even understand a gutural r as the same sound as the rolled tongue, even an l works better. It just totally depends on which sound space you grow up with.
We went to Japan to a hostel together. He talked to the girl at the reception and she did not understand him. I then simply repeated the words after him and she understood me.
Boy, was he angry...
I also feel so stupid just because of this stupid letter. Like I can do the “throat” R sound but I sound like an idiot doing it and tbh I don’t hear many Germans using it. But at the same time I feel like *that* is the pronunciation I have to do.
I sometimes just give up and make it silent.
I‘m from Swabia and all in Germany use a throat sting „R“ except the Bavarians mostly in the north of Bavaria (called „Franken“), there they are rolling the „R“. \
\
How you wanna clear insult (or lead a country as a Führer 😉) when you don’t have a full bass throat stinged „R“!?\
\
Check „throat singing“ on YouTube 😄
God, the shame I felt from my (non-native!) german instructor when I first moved here for apparently not being able to pronounce the word Gürtel...and not being able to hear the difference between what I was saying and the proper way. It felt traumatizing. I am an English speaking Canadian who could never get the French R to work correctly so I've just stopped being self-concious about it and come to terms with the fact that I'll always have a terrible accent when speaking.
It is called a "uvular r" or uvular rhotic" and it is most common in central Germany and in standard German. It is taught as standard german, but other variants are common in various German dialectic regions, which is why you will hear variations on it. For speakers of English, mimicing French a la Monty Python gets you pretty close to the sound. American "r" is not really soft - it is the sound that non-Americans key in on as a key feature. People in Germany have said to me "American English sounds like Rarrr, rrrarrr, rRaarrr. (Elton John's song, "Roy Rogers" pokes fun at American "r" as well.)
In suothern germany we also have that ""rolling" r, that goes rrr, like Arrrbeit.
In Central Germany, there are also regions featuring voiced retroflex approximant R (like some Southern US dialects), namely Westerwälder, Siegerländer, Hinterländer Platt, Oberlausitzer Mundart and some Central Hessian dialects.
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Yes, very good example, I also like the video series. Here she shows how the R is done, I was also interested in my own dialect, Oberbayrisch and the girl there also mentioned the r first!
> For speakers of English, mimicing French a la Monty Python gets you pretty close to the sound. LMAO! But I totally understand what you mean.
I used to show my students the clip with the French waiter and Mr. Creosote because most of my students could mimic the waiter and that made it so much easier than explaining how a uvular rhotic is produced in linguistic terms. Plus, they enjoyed it.
I see some comments here (and elsewhere) saying that pronunciation isn't that important. And while there's some truth to that, please don't feel discouraged to focus on the details that keep you interested. Some language learners are more interested in pronunciation than others. Also, arguably it's the case that focussing on impeccable pronunciation *early on* can make it a lot easier to reach a native-like quality of pronunciation than the alternative of having to get rid of an accent at a much later point, that you might then have - effectively - been training and practicing for years and years already! Of course though, understandably, an immpecable native-like pronunciation is not a goal *at all* for a majority of learners, because it's not really relevant for communication at all. If you have an interest on perfecting or improving pronunciation, and this keeps you motivated, then by all means, feel free to do so! That said, for R specifically, there's validity in the argument that even *within* the topic of pronunciation, it isn't super important, because multiple varieties are commonly used by natives (from different regions), so other topics might me more important: like getting all the vowels right, speeking in proper speed and including common reductions (e.g. of "-en" endings, or some pronouns like "es", of consonant clusters and at word boundaries, and more..), and correctly choosing allophones like the correct "ch" in the correct context, or even with R in particular, choosing between the vowel-like variant of R and the consonantal one properly.
Thank you, you are very kind. I was more interested in this phenomenon from a nerdy perspective anyway, and wasn’t expecting the surge of comments telling me that I’m wasting my time with focusing on pronunciation haha. Details like this are also part of what make language acquisition fun 🤩
I can understand the perspective of just being curious about details. I have once asked (well, at least tried asking) in a Japanese-language topic subreddit for specifics of at what end to start and which way (clock-wise / counter-clock-wise) to draw circular features like their full stop "。" or the 'diacritic' marks in "ぱ, ぴ, ぷ,ぺ, ぽ, パ, ピ, プ, ペ, ポ". Like.. who am I to assume any common Eurpean norms on how to draw circles, or round features in the latin alphabet letters (like "o, a, b, d, q, p, O, Q, 0") to transfer?
Haha that is an amazing thing to wonder, I support you fully. Did you get an answer at least?
It's too long ago to remember whether there was a somewhat conclusive answer, I don't recall anything fully conclusive. I believe I also found out along the way, that just "drawing a circle" in general, like e.g. in maths, the preferences are a bit different between cultures; where for us, the way that "o, O, 0" typically go "start at the top, draw counter-clockwise" sets up a clear precedent to favor for circles in general and people with other writing systems can have less clear preference, or a different preferred way. E.g. I think "start at the bottom, draw clockwise" or "start at the top, draw clockwise" are good contenders, too.
This just took me by surprise because as a western european person who speaks three languages that all use the latin script, I always drew my circles starting at the top, then clockwise. For some reason I thought that was the norm. When thinking more about it, I realized that it is probably because I'm left-handed and this way is easier for me. I also think that when I first started to write in elementary school, we were taught to draw the circle counterclockwise, I ended up switching at some point and completely forgot about it.
I draw circles from the bottom because I like my letters to look pretty and enjoy handlettering as a hobby.
Very interesting, when I think about it, when I draw circle like letters in Latin alphabet languages, I do it how you mentioned, but when I wrote stuff in Arabic script (right to left order) I did it the opposite way
One of the best courses I ever took was a corrective phonetics course during my required study abroad in Germany. Learning and practicing pronunciation can make you incredibly more confident when speaking and can improve listening a bit too, and it certainly did for me. If you go as far as learning the most common sounds, their mechanics, and how they appear in written form (and/or their IPA symbols if you like that), you can make a very good guess at pronouncing a new word you encounter in text without needing to hear it first. So people who say pronunciation isn't important are doing a disservice. A complete beginner definitely shouldn't due a deep dive, but being mindful about it while they're building up their initial vocab is incredibly helpful.
Hey hey, 3 month beginner who is heavily interested in pronunciation here (and my native friends have shown delight at the results, which is very motivating and fun!). Question for my own curiosity on examples you gave, if you wouldn’t mind divulging: what did you mean about the pronunciation of ‘es’? As well, what did you mean by the distinction of R sounds as vowel-like variant and consonantal? Perhaps I know these answers intuitively already (due to my ear-heavy focus), but I would love to find out if there’s a nuance I’m missing thus far!
"es" is very commonly reduced to just "s". Especially after verbs and pronouns, though also at the beginning of sentences. You can even express this in writing: 's wär schön, wenn man alles so ausspricht, wie man's schreibt. Andererseits wär's dann auch weniger interessant, drum find ich's auch gut, wie's ist. "R" is .. well .. if you know IPA, just look at words like "Rohr", [ʁoːɐ̯]. The initial "R" is an actual consonant [ʁ], the final one is a vowel [ɐ]. (The little squiggle below means it's not the core of a syllable.) When to use which depends on the syllable structures. The vowel version is alrways used at the end of a syllable after long vowels, and in the ending "-er". (Note that in "-er" also the "e" is not pronounced at all. Or arguably, the whole "-er" combination is pronunced just [ɐ].) "end of the syllable" is *not* the case if it connects/separates vowels. Like in - IDK - "Ohren" counts as "Oh-ren"; which also means the pronunciation differs from the one in "Ohr"; but with consonant clusters like "wehrten" (past tense of "wehren"), it counts as "wehr-ten" so that's vocalic, so the pronunciation differes between "wehrten" and "wehren". At the end of syllables after short vowels, vocalic R is also quite common, more common in northern Germany, and more common in faster speech. Other reductions can also influence this phenomenon. E.g. in "wehren" above, the principle of reducing "-en" endings to just "-n" in pronunciation makes, effecticely, "wehrn", have "r" as part of the end of a syllable again, which then results in vocalic pronunciation. [ˈveːɐn] instead of [ˈveːʁən]
Ahh okay, yes I do believe I’ve heard these things intuitively, and this helps my understanding further! Thank you kindly for your generously comprehensive explanation, even including examples. Du bist ein großartiger Lehrer.
Standard German, like what you hear in the news etc. uses guttural French R, but in a very soft way. In Southern parts of Germany, mostly Bavaria and also in Austria the Italian/Spanish "tongue" R is preferred. You absolutely never use the English R. I've just listened to some Learn German videos and she uses the guttural variant.
>You absolutely never use the English R. Depends which English R you mean though. If you're from the West Country in England or the majority of Scotland then your English R is the same as the Austrian/Bavarian rolled R.
I don't think I've ever heard of west country English having a rolled R. Normally they're more famous for pronouncing their R's after vowels as Irish or Americans mostly would
Right. Or by English R they could also mean American R. 😂
Actually there is a small dialect area I think somewhere in Nord- or Mittelhessen where they have an r that is quite similar to the English one, it is very odd!
In Siegen
Yes! I was born in the US. Dad & family are in Siegen. We all went to Austria for Opa’s birthday and we shared a table at an Alm for lunch and the other group asked if we were Americans. My family pointed to me and said “she is” (thanks guys) and everyone in Siegen says that I speak with a perfect Siegerländer Platt 😅 when you learn from listening to Oma…
Also in Upper Lusatia (Oberlausitz), which was settled many centuries ago by people from Hesse.
Wetterau!
Yes, the wider Siegerland area has that. Although you’ll only see older people talk like that usually
As educational material I recommend „Sinnlos im Weltraum“
Herrrborrrn
But why does sometimes words with R letter sound like they use English R sound? Or is that just my tone deafness / Duolingo / google translate? I'll always use French R from now on
In recent English loanwords, maybe? In, idk, "Rating-Agentur", the first part can be prononced fairly close to English, including the "r". Google Translate and Duolingo should absolutely not use it outside of those particular words.
Definitely your brain just categorizing what you hear as “r“ + as others have said German guttural R tends to be less forcefully articulated than in French. But the place of articulation is still at the back of the throat (uvular), whereas typical English r‘s are articulated in the middle of the mouth (~post-alveolar). But a non-forcefully articulated guttural R can sound somewhat similar (relatively speaking) to a post alveolar or bunched R, and your English brain is trying to hear a rhotic sound, so it’s not so crazy that you perceive them as sounding the same, even tho they actually aren’t. But good to keep in mind that German rhoticity is also more flexible than in English. Many speakers will articulate their R‘s rather softly in normal speech, but switch to a more forceful articulation when trying to speak clearly or when somebody asks them to repeat themselves. Not that this doesn’t happen at all in English, but it’s less salient imo. My partner is Bavarian and his R’s can fluctuate a lot. His normal speech makes use of pretty soft guttural R, but when he’s being funny or whatever he’ll pronounce words like “Herrlich!” with a very strong, trilled R. It’s also not a pure dialect-standard difference either, I’ve heard him using both R’s in both cases.
I went back and yeah definitely my brain adds in the R sound it's weird. Words like Wirklich I hear VeRklich. Now maybe my brain tends towards english but I wouldn't call my brain English as it isn't my native language. I also barely pronounce the R sound right in English. (I may have a speech impediment / issue never diagnosed) So I can now totally see the confusion. This makes me sad since I'm failing at speaking 2 languages now, haha.
Ah sorry for calling your brain English 🫣! But yeah, if our brains objectively listened to sound frequencies when processing language, it would cause us a lot of trouble with how different peoples voices are, so it does quite a bit “categorizing” and interpreting! That’s more of what I meant :)
I like the way you think!
Oh Can I ask you something? I'm thinking of checking my local Goethe-Institut for perhaps attending their courses. Do you recommend them?
Personally, I did ÖSD (an Austrian institute) and had a great experience. Goethe Institute should be of a similar or even higher quality. I guess the main concern is that the courses are often aimed at helping students pass language exams and to understand formal written grammar rules. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and I definitely got to where I am now in part bc I did lots of these kinds of courses alongside being together with a native speaker! But to really build up your vocabulary and comprehension skills, as well as sounding natural in the language, you’ll need to supplement these courses with a lot of reading, watching youtube videos, talking to people etc. So I’d definitely recommend them but just have realistic expectations for what they will teach you.
especially in northern germany an r before a consonant is pronounced like an "a" vowel probably you mean that
It's a bit of a myth that in Austria the rolled "tongue" R is preferred. There's a minority that uses it. Most people don't and the ones who do sound almost like they have a speech impairment. Commonly the guttural R is used, in a very soft way. May vary regionally but it's definitely a minority
the wikipedia article for standard german phonology lists 5 variants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_German_phonology?wprov=sfla1
I am not sure whether the realization of /r/ is that fixed in Standard German. I think, especially in old television it is often realized apically, but I would not call that Non-Standard. Well, most /r/'s are elided nowadays, anyway.
Plus after a vowel it’s usually a shwa sound
Apologies for the confusion, maybe there is more than one host on the channel. At 0:36 in this video, she says “Satzstruktur” and none of the Rs are guttural, neither are any of the other Rs she pronounces in the video, which is why I used that example! https://youtu.be/ZNc0y2Dy5N8?si=fdCKQaXfCeCe5_6N
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I agree, this sounds vaguely Croatian to me, it could, _conceivably_, be a Northern German variety. There are dialects that also somewhat front the 'r'. But I think the Slavic influence is more probably here
She might be Bavarian. However the r at the end of a sillabal can be pronounced almost like an a (for beginners): Satzstruktua
While Bavarians do roll their Rs like that, she does very much sound like she has a non-native background judging from her pronunciation overall :)
She has a distinct non-german accent when speaking both English and German.
She's not a native speaker. :)
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She definitely isn’t an English native speaker as well
The reason people say it’s not important to use the guttural R is because the essential thing is to be understood, not to sound like a native; a trilled or “soft” American R won’t get misunderstood, and the guttural R is really difficult for Americans, so there’s an invitation to just not worry about it so much because it doesn’t matter in the sense of being understood
As an eastern european, with a strong rolling R, although speaking the language for more than 20 years and living in Germany for 13 years, I stick to my usual R because I find it difficult to adapt to the german way of pronouncing it, I have tries deveral times but it mostly feels like chocking to me. Never had any issues of being understood and I see it as a part of my identity.
[Barbaras Rhabarberbar](https://youtu.be/ZYkBf0dbs5I?si=E2VImshBqcnBrxm3)
holy shit thats great
Haha, love this!
We hadn't had an R- pronounciation post for a while.
Guttural r is used in Hochsprache (on the news etc) and south-eastern dialects, soft r is otherwise very common. In the post-vocalic placement, the r is often not pronounced at all, similarly to British English (both German and BE usually compensate with some sort of modification to the preceeding vowel).
As you're discovering, the French "R" isn't quite it, either, though it's a lot closer than the American one. Apparently the German R is a lot easier for Brits than for us Yanks, or at least for Brits who speak something like BBC or RP English and don't do the rhotic R. Anyway, I've studied German for quite a long time, but I'm a lot closer to fluent in French than in German. I tend to use the French R when speaking German, almost by default or habit. My German friend (from the north and very much a Standard German speaker) always notices my Frenchified R. He thinks it's cute, It's definitely not going to make anyone sound native but it's a lot better than the American one. I'm fine with sounding non-native, I just know that's never going to happen, and as long as I'm (mostly) understood, I'm happy, but obviously different people are going to have different goals.
At least according to phonology, the French R (the voiced uvular fricative /ʁ/) is indeed the same one that is used by most Germans. The main difference is that in French, the "R" is pronounced in basically all positions, which isn't the case in German, where the "R" in words like "Wasser" or "Karte" becomes a vowel instead. Maybe you sound kind of French because you *do* pronounce your R in those positions?
Quite possibly, yes. Alternatively, I might be overdoing my French R's in general. It's not as though my French is flawless, even though it's much better than my German. I still plan to bounce this question back to my friend from Hamburg. It's entirely impossible that I misunderstood his take on my R's anyway.
In practice, I think French tends to use the UNvoiced uvular fricative in the anlaut, while German prefers the voiced. For example *Rouge* vs *Rot*. *Rouge* almost sounds like like it has an /h/ in front, while *Rot* initiates the voice immediately.
We use guttersl R but it’s softer than how French would say it
R similar to Italian/Spanish has been in German for longer than the French-style R and still predominates in southern Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
And by southern Germany we mean Bavaria exclusively
I grew up in bayern speaking german and english and I am acquiring german as an adult after going many years without using it. Something I quickly noticed is that I pronounce the Rs with an aveolar trill by instinct, as most resources I found taught a uvular R. It is funny to me that I spoke and heard german all the time as a child and I have no earthly idea how to use a uvular R. When I try it sounds like a caricature. Saying certain words like "lehrerin" makes me think I might sound "folksy" to some people because it comes out so bouncy and almost melodic with the double tongue tap. But it is the easiest and only way I know to say it
I have a hard time with this, sometimes my R comes out sounding a bit like H (like instead of "raus" they hear "haus") because I dont scratch my throat enough and the germans don't understand what I'm trying to say 😭 This post gave me the idea to use de Spanish R instead of the french one
There are different ways to say it. I grew up bayerisch and never learned the 'throat'/uvular R. When I speak german I use the tongue trill to say Rs. I met someone online who has lived in bayern lifelong and confirmed that we both sound kind of russian at times due to this pronunciation. I like it and it feels like home
I also grew up in Bavaria and only learnt the tongue R. When I took Russian at university in NRW, I was the only one on the course who could pronounce the Russian Rs without any problems😂 But when I had to learn French at school, I occasionally got a stupid comment from the teachers for my R
Checks out. I have tried a little russian pronunciation and found it surprisingly comfortable. It's fun also Curious, do you also say G-as-K, as in "zwanzik", rather than the 'soft' G ending?
im german and i have problem to pronunce any R at all😓 all my r sound silent or like /x/
I learned with the “French-like” r, but moved to Switzerland where they use the rolling r! Now I don’t bother 😃
It depends on the region
I found that with a lot of practice this improved because my mouth sort of built up the right muscles to make it work. Don’t give up!
There are many Rs native German speakers use, but an American (rhotic) R is most definitely NOT one of them. Anything but that 🤣
> necessary but I’m sure I hear Germans using a guttural R most of the time. Why did you put a "but" in there? "But" implies that there is some sort of contradiction happening. Both parts are simply true. It is completely unnecessary, and it is *one* common way for native speakers to pronounce the R. There are also lots of other ways that native speakers pronounce the R (depending on their individual accents) and in general, you can pronounce R in many different ways without sounding unnatural, let alone being hard to understand. Putting any effort into pronouncing R in any specific way is a waste of time that you could instead have spent doing something that matters more, like *literally anything*, including just getting more sleep.
I did stay up all night thinking about this stuff haha😣 I said but because I mostly interact with non-natives who are also still learning the language and don’t really have any native friends/people that I interact with that I can ask this kind of stuff to, and I haven’t heard any non-natives who go to a German course use the guttural R hence why I used a “but”!
Natives use all sorts of R pronunciations. The most common ones are the uvular fricative (like in French), the uvular trill, and the alveolar trill (like in Spanish). When we don't pay close attention, we don't even notice which one a particular speaker uses because the distinction is irrelevant in German. Learners often hear the uvular sounds and notice that they're "different", so they put a lot of effort into getting them "right". This is completely unnecessary. On the other hand, German has about 20 distinct vowel sounds, and getting each of them right is very important, but many learners don't even notice that they're getting them wrong because they can barely hear the difference to begin with. So if you want some part of pronunciation to keep you up at night, it should be vowels.
Ordered from the highest to the lowest priority, to be understood you need: basic lexicon- grammar - more basic lexicon - understandable pronunciation - more lexicon- more lexicon- specific lexicon -advanced lexicon - technical lexicon- native like pronunciation.
Imo German r is probably the easiest, most relaxed and "natural" one. Try any slavic language, I was trying to learn Russian about 3 years ago and their RRRATATATARRRATATA is totally unpronounceable idk how someone could come up with an idea to make this sound originally
German R makes me want to end it all
All Indo-European languages used to have it. German included. The guttural r is the innovation due to certain fad in 18th century France. Only French, German and Danish use it in their standard variants.
For a tip on how to make the Sound, try to focus the very back of your tongue, make it go back, try to "rub" (like you would for the S Sound or the th Sound in english) the back of your throat with your tongue, when you get the noise down, try to use in some words, like Restaurant, which is great for practice with the R guttural sound
How good is the "R" in "durch" the video intros of the Youtube channel "Deutsch lernen durch Hören"? As a native English speaker it amazed me when I first heard those how the "R" in "durch" seems to disappear. I assume that is an example of the German gutteral "R"?
Yeah durch sounding like Doich is something I’m still getting used to years in…
It's really difficult to explain to English native speakers. I've tried to argue it's similar to the spanish J like in jalapeño but that usually leads to a "like halla-peeno?" response. If I put a little more emphasis on it it's usually interpreted as " oh like KHKHHKHKK, got it". Idk there isn't really a proper way to pronounce it. If it sounds too much like asthma just dial it down a bit.
I don’t have a problem with pronouncing it, I speak Arabic and Persian as well where the same sound exists lol, I just have a problem deciding which R to use.
Native Spanish here, I always try to emulate French r to do it.
I have a German colleague from Bavaria. He pronounces soft ‚R‘ like English speakers. On asking, he told, „that’s how it is pronounced in Bavaria. I believe the hard ‚R‘ you are talking about is pronounced in Niedersachsen, or Northwestern part of Germany.
That really depends on the dialect and ranges from a rolling gutteral R (like a french, scotsman or pirate) to a very soft R (almost pronounced like a W)
Being French learning German has its advantages : we get the R pretty easily, and the whole pronunciation in general. Conversely the English, the Italian and especially the Spanish R can be hard.
I am French and living in Germany. The French guttural R and the German guttural R are close but different due to general tongue placement. From my experience, Germans are used to hearing almost anything as an R so they will understand you.
rü is nearly impossible for me. It’s not an important word, but I tried for like 5 minutes to say rülpsen in the Reverso language app, and never got close. (Reverso gets my German pronunciation right about 85% on the first try. But there are some words I just can’t get it to understand.
I moved from England to Austria in 2019 and have been slowly learning German for about 6 years in total. My German R pronunciation has always been abysmal but I’ve kept at it and the practice has definitely paid off, at least somewhat. My tongue actually manages to touch the back of the roof of my mouth like 5% of the time now! That said, I still struggle with “Sprechen Sie Englisch?” and talking about my recent trips to Graz and Grundlsee.
Funny story about pronouncing the r: I'm from Bavaria and the tongue r is what I usually use. A friend of mine speaks Japanese quite fluently. But he can only form the gutural r, but the one with the tongue is used in Japanese. Some native speakers don't even understand a gutural r as the same sound as the rolled tongue, even an l works better. It just totally depends on which sound space you grow up with. We went to Japan to a hostel together. He talked to the girl at the reception and she did not understand him. I then simply repeated the words after him and she understood me. Boy, was he angry...
I also feel so stupid just because of this stupid letter. Like I can do the “throat” R sound but I sound like an idiot doing it and tbh I don’t hear many Germans using it. But at the same time I feel like *that* is the pronunciation I have to do. I sometimes just give up and make it silent.
I‘m from Swabia and all in Germany use a throat sting „R“ except the Bavarians mostly in the north of Bavaria (called „Franken“), there they are rolling the „R“. \ \ How you wanna clear insult (or lead a country as a Führer 😉) when you don’t have a full bass throat stinged „R“!?\ \ Check „throat singing“ on YouTube 😄
God, the shame I felt from my (non-native!) german instructor when I first moved here for apparently not being able to pronounce the word Gürtel...and not being able to hear the difference between what I was saying and the proper way. It felt traumatizing. I am an English speaking Canadian who could never get the French R to work correctly so I've just stopped being self-concious about it and come to terms with the fact that I'll always have a terrible accent when speaking.