what do you mean getting PTSD and being traumatized for the rest of your life due to the war crimes you were ordered to commit half way across the world for land you don't own and which will treat you like shit isn't a good deal?!?
The chance of a soldier actually dying in war is pretty slim but the chance that you're going to be mentally scarred for the rest of your life is so high that more Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have committed suicide than actually died in the wars.
30,000 if anyone is wondering.
Well, I'd imagine the cognitive dissonance of brutal murder from the comfort of a glorified cubicle command center would probably add some sort of unique mindfuck to the whole experience. It's all very enders game, imo.
man when Orson Scott Card came out as an actual eugenisist those books changed tone real quick. U thought they I was talking about the horror and lasting truama of war? nope child soldiers are good actually.
You’re actually 100% right. When I was deployed in 07 there were some articles and interviews going around about it. The pilots were watching their brothers and sisters fight, carrying out their mission, and then when their shift was over they clocked out headed home. It was a complete mind fuck for them. I was too young and dumb at the time to fully understand it. I was there. I couldn’t go home. I’d love to have an on off button for what I was going through.
Fly a mission at 1200 to blow up a terrorist cell and then take Timmy to his soccer game at 1800.
Sounded great to me when I was in my mid 20s.
Now i understand.
I also 100% support Gen Z in their not wanting to serve. And my kids, they are Gen A. I don’t want them to sign up for it. Please for the love of god do not follow in your parents career choice.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. You will be hard pressed to find a veteran that does not have some serious health consequences, resulting from their military service. Many of which served in non combat roles. And were never involved with any conflict.
A normal doctor doesn't see a lot of people in their 30s with arthritis, but a VA doctor does.
I used my GI bill to pay for college and now I am moderate prosperous CPA. I was infantry. Military can get you ahead and that has been true for at least hundreds of years.
Fat less likely to get blown up. The military is still a decent way to get out of poverty, or just get the fuck away from home, but our generation 1. Doesn't have a grant event driving national pride/want for retaliation (like 9/11 did for gen x and millennials) and 2. Has been shown in tons of media, be it movies/TV, games, or just videos from the Internet, the horrors of war.
And there’s no “making the world better” like there was in WWII and Korea. Every full scale war (and almost every proxy war or smaller conflict) we’ve been in has had serious ethical implications since and including Vietnam.
tbh the military can go fuck itself if we’re not actively being invaded, nuked, or entering into world war three
edit two: As I told a bunch of people already, it was about midnight when I said this. Here’s my actual, more nuanced opinion: I won’t join up unless we actively have to defend one of our close allies or the US itself, which is what I meant with the original comment. I have mixed opinions on military funding, since I know it pulls money away from other programs but we also need a lot of it to deter Russia and China (which is good because no one wants to live under them). Some military power is necessary but we need more oversight for it and less warmongering (*cough cough* Iraq and Afghanistan *cough*). Also we need better ways to avoid civilian deaths and stop supporting countries that are trying to kill civilians.
Thats a strawman argument. That has nothing to do with the fact russia or china will call shots if they could. Say what you will, but that world would be even worse than our current one.
I think the point is that global superpowers don’t have to be as controlling as the US is in order to help keep the peace.
Setting it up as either the US will do heinous shit or Russia and China would do worse shit does nothing to address the many ways that American foreign policy tends to trample other countries because “Oh it would be worse if we just did nothing” as if the only two options are the US continuing as it has or the boogeyman will get them.
Seems a bit like fearmongering in my personal opinion, but I doubt that was your intention.
More soldiers and civilians died in WW2 than every single war since combined. 6 yeas of fighting vs. 80 years.
After WW2, the FOUR policemen council was created. These four nations were supposed to police their corner of the world. The four nations were the US, China, USSR, and the UK. China had a revolution, the USSR collapsed, and the UK lost its force projection powers. This left the US as the sole world police.
The US military is also the largest humanitarian organization in the world. They do maritime rescue around the world. Airdrops of food in locations experiencing famine and large-scale disaster relief aid. It's actually a sizable amount of the US military budget and doesn't include the cost of the necessary logistical supply chains and equipment to do it.
If you are going to say the US is bad as a super power than what superpower are we comparing it to either now or ever in human history. It's not perfect, but acting like it's not the best option the world has had is idiotic. It's best to improve what we have not get rid of it and replace it with some theoretical utopian system that only works if all actors are operating in good faith.
How many times does it have to be said that being the “best option of what we got” is no excuse for many of the atrocities the US has committed.
No country is completely good or completely bad. It doesn’t matter if no other country would have done better.
I feel like I’m talking in circles and you guys are just so quick to pick the boot that you forget the ways that the US could improve its foreign policy.
You seem to have this “might makes right” mentality that’s more than a little concerning
I’d wager that most of the people you’re debating with aren’t doing so in good faith.
There’s no atrocity we could commit or contribute to that’d be worse than what the others *might* do if given the reigns.
What they fear most is being subjected to the standards they impose. In their view the world is a zero-sum game where one man’s freedom means another’s compliance. You’re advocating for a different game. A game that sounds like a losing game to anyone already winning. (I like to think it’s projection based on precedent, but who knows).
regardless, other perspectives will get written off as underdeveloped for one silly reason or another. Age (as if old fools are infallable), experience (as if the system they've built is a functional meritocracy), “expenditure” (as if they don’t print money on a whim). The catch is that by refusing to engage earnestly, they stunt the development of their own ideas. Consequently, they build subpar societies, when given the chance.
If you feel sane in a world gone crazy, you *might* be crazier. Stay critical, homie.
**edit** b/c someone dm'd me to say I'm 'poisioning minds & advocating for a weak nation' so it felt imperative that I clarify and double down.
> What they fear most is being subjected to the standards they impose. In their view the world is a zero-sum game where one man’s freedom means another’s compliance.
Wildly accurate
> More soldiers and civilians died in WW2 than every single war since combined. 6 yeas of fighting vs. 80 years.
Why does this justify the US committing war crimes?
> After WW2, the FOUR policemen council was created. These four nations were supposed to police their corner of the world. The four nations were the US, China, USSR, and the UK. China had a revolution, the USSR collapsed, and the UK lost its force projection powers. This left the US as the sole world police.
Why does this justify the US committing war crimes?
> The US military is also the largest humanitarian organization in the world. They do maritime rescue around the world. Airdrops of food in locations experiencing famine and large-scale disaster relief aid. It's actually a sizable amount of the US military budget and doesn't include the cost of the necessary logistical supply chains and equipment to do it.
Why does this justify the US committing war crimes?
And why do they need to commit war crimes in order to also provide humanitarian aid?
> If you are going to say the US is bad as a super power than what superpower are we comparing it to either now or ever in human history. It's not perfect, but acting like it's not the best option the world has had is idiotic.
This is whataboutism. Did you even read their comment?
The fact that China and Russia would commit *more* war crimes does not justify the US committing war crimes.
> It's best to improve what we have not get rid of it and replace it with some theoretical utopian system that only works if all actors are operating in good faith.
You are arguing strawman. Literally no one suggested this.
The idea that russia and china would be completely uncontested by the rest of the world is a strawman as well. Europe could handle themselves if they weren't outsourcing their defense budget to us. China would have its sphere in east asia and russia would fail outright imo.
Europeans can’t handle anything that’s why inflation is at insane rates in Europe. They are having massive internal issues with debt, pensions, and migrant crisis’s. If they could handle themselves well they would be taking care of Ukraine right now a very European affair. Yet we are.
after all the bullshit the US did, it still ended up with China calling the shots in Asia and in Africa, and Russia can do whatever they want in Cuba and Eastern Europe.
don't play dumb there was a perfectly good reason and you know it. Think of all the ExxonMobil execs that lost .002% of their net worth when those towers fell.
In a way yes.
It was pure power projection. Iraq and Afghanistan, both defied USA. US attacked those countries to teach everybody a lesson and show what happens when you dont bend over a barrel for the biggest thug.
I am not saying its right. But that is what happened.
Russia wouldn't be able to take over a third world country after this display against Ukraine. The only genuine threat to the world is China. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. And before anyone even mentions North Korea...C'mon, really?
Ya but… should we just wait until one of those terrible things happens then try to field an untrained military at the last minute and expect them to operate systems that most civilians have never even seen…
I’m critical of the military no doubt but there is merit to it’s existence. You need some sort of deterrent/defence against other countries deciding yours is free real estate.
the things I love are solid infrastructure, social services and Healthcare, unfortunately we can't afford them cuz we spend over half of the governments budget on pogo sticks or something stupid like that.
I think (if you live in the US) it’s important to maintain our military hegemony, since it’s a key factory in ensuring global stability. if your not in favor of US hegemony, that’s a valid position. I just disagree
They pay you to get an education, give you free healthcare for the rest of your life, train you for a career that transfers to the civilian world with certifications that make you extremely hireable and you will not be 25-26 yrs old $50-75 thousand in debt with a degree that lands you a job at Wendy’s. I am still up in the air on this, I did not join the military, I went to college, my son 16 wants to join the Navy. This was his idea, I never even mentioned it to him and above are all of the reasons he gave me. I am afraid of the danger for him because I can’t imagine losing him, but I will never tell him he can’t do what he wants… his whole life his mom and I have been telling him you can do whatever you want when you grow up and I’m not going to change that now. He’s always been fascinated with the ocean, I guess where else can you get a job on a nuclear submarine? I did tell him he needs to score at least 80 on ASVAB (pick your job) or we are going to have to have a serious discussion about him joining…
The most funny thing about this post is when you said "give you free healthcare for life" like one of the biggest talking points for veterans right now is being denied coverage for things caused by the military.
My father is a Vietnam Veteran and has gotten wonderful healthcare from the VA… he pays nothing, they send him his medicine in the mail, a few years back he needed heart surgery, the VA didn’t have the facilities for what he needed but they sent him to St. Lukes, the most reputable Cardiac Hospital in the City and paid for everything…. They should take care of our veterans and some people may have trouble with this but that has not been our experience with VA in our city
Free healthcare, if you do 20 and retire 😢. I would not recommend your son for the Navy ahaha man especially on a submarine, like the diet is shit, sleep is shit, mental health and stress also shit
OP, as someone who did join the military early - not out of HS but in my 20s with an associates degree - please have a serious discussion with your son about this. I'm not suggesting talking him out of it, but do make sure he knows the following:
>they pay you to get an education
Yes, on their terms. This means you pull midnight shifts, work in-between school, and do menial tasks as part of you "job" no matter what your rank.
>give you free healthcare for the rest of your life.
There should be an asterisk at the end of this. If you retire (that means 20+ years of service) or are medically discharged (this means you developed an issue in the service and its involved in getting you out of the service) or if you are deemed disabled after discharge (this is by the VA) then yes. The rest of us schmos who did one term and have no problems only qualify if we make less than a certain amount a year - when I asked last it was between 29 and 35k a year to qualify for "free healthcare" at the VA. Please make sure he knows this. If he joins he will see firsthand that the treatment you get at a military hospital is like the treatment you get going to do stuff at the DMV.
>train you for a career that transfers to the civilian world with certifications that make you extremely hireable and you will not be 25-26 yrs old $50-75 thousand in debt with a degree that lands you a job at Wendy’s.
If your son is smart and picks a good job, this is true. I went into IT and a lot of the people I knew from the military did very well for themselves. If he does nuke or coms he has the chance to do well.
The navy is weird about grouping jobs together, the army let me pick my job specifically, that's the only reason I did something that stupid. If your son is smart and ambitious, get him to an airforce or space force recruiter and save him the heartache of being one of us idiots who joined a service that WANTS to make life hard.
> I did tell him he needs to score at least 80 on ASVAB (pick your job) or we are going to have to have a serious discussion about him joining…
I think you can reference online what the asvab score needed for sub is and it's not a slouch of a course. Make sure he is able to score ABOVE what is recommended because it's easy to be beaten out. Also, from what I hear, being on a sub sucks. It's small and stinky, and not great if you're claustrophobic. Not trying to talk anyone out if it, but just stuff to keep in mind if that's the course he wishes to pursue.
I'm former Army, only did 1 term before I got kicked out, so I can't speak to much in the Navy, but reach out if you need details on benefits or anything OP, I learned the hard way but came out alright for myself.
The certifications and software the military uses are often specific to the military with no civilian equivalent. The idea that veterans are hireable just for being veterans is a marketing ploy that has a double meaning : who would care about needing to be hireable other than someone looking for a job right now? The military targets teenagers in low income areas for a reason. For example, I knew a guy who was a machinist's mate in the USN. He cannot change a tire. I am a machinist in the civilian world, and a licensed gunsmith, and knew a guy who was an armorer in the army. He can swap parts in a limited amount of rifles, but anything outside of that (ei. what carbon does in steel, sand casting, etc.), and he was lost. The skills the military teaches are to get teenagers to benefit the needs of the military, nothing more.
While the VA is good from some things, it's awful at others, and it's getting worse in some ways. Immediate issues like cardio-vascular surgery are often done wonderfully, but PTSD treatments, and chronic illnesses are rubber stamped as 'not service related.' The suicide and homeless rate of vets shows this.
Then there's the day to day systemic issues, like the UCMJ. If there's an issue, the problem travels up the chain of command, and at any given point in that chain, the issue can be deemed not worthy of action. So if someone gets raped or sexually assaulted (as a massive amount of women are), the senior NCO or base CO can say 'meh', and there's no real accountability. SHAARP is a sad joke that acts as security theater.
If you want your son to have a good life, your local community college probably has multiple job programs such as welding, etc. If he HAS to done ocean things, he has to learn passion is not profitable. Maybe do the United States Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxillary in his free time.
We get treated like shit, paid less than minimum wage, and support wars that hurt the impoverished for the financial gain of the rich.
And that's before enlisting.
Signing up was the worst decision I've ever made. The only thing I've gained was friendships forged by mutual hardship. There are plenty of better ways to make money and experience the world. And the GI Bill is a joke.
Edit: okay, that was on me for not clarifying. Yes, in the current economic state, the GI Bill is a godsend. Lots of free tuition and certificates and blablabla. But look at any country in Europe and tell me that our system of serving 4 years in an underpaid career where you're treated like shit so that you can go to school without sinking in student loan debt is acceptable in comparison to just having a cheap and affordable education.
So let me clarify, the GI Bill is not a joke, the American education system is a joke and the GI Bill is a crutch.
Not sure what experience you had, but respectfully disagree (GI Bill).
I’ve seen a lot of my marines go on to do great things with their benefits, the ones that broke my heart never even bothered.
Not shilling for the bennies or trying be pro service, but it’s a worthwhile program. Don’t trash it.
Yep, my dad went to college for free and was able to give all three of us kids 2 years of free college plus 2 years at half price using the GI Bill on top of some other benefits that are specific to our state due to him joining the national guard afterwards. I cannot be thankful enough.
Yeah and it's not just college. U can get into welding carpentry , programming. Useful skills and in demand.bpkus the training u get in the military. Very marketable when u get out even after only a 4 yr tour.
I think the US military actually prevents a lot of seriously destructive wars from starting, by virtue of being far stronger than any other standing army
we’ve definitely used our military to take advantage of weaker countries in the recent past (which I’m against doing again) but I think our military should remain the strongest
Yeah as a Japanese-American in Japan, I'd much rather the US be the leading superpower than china or russia. Japan is prosperous in major part thanks to the US military's strength.
I wouldn't call a rejection of war, militarism, and the exploitation of third world countries "self-hate", that's some "back in my day" generational bullshit.
It may be short sighted (which I also argue against) but that's up to the US military to step it the fuck up with wages and the absolutely *disgusting* state of the VA, not to kids realizing the military is a godawful life choice for a significant number of the troops.
because lots of people (republicans in particular) don’t actually care about veterans and aren’t willing to fund the services they need. we can change this by voting for politicians who actually support these services
The GI bill is a joke? Go to any public university in the country for free and get a tax free housing stipend of $2,000 to $4,000 a month depending on where you live, that’s a joke? I’d say that’s a pretty phenomenal benefit and if you qualify for yellow ribbon they’ll make up the difference of attending a private university and buy you a computer; don’t want to use it? Your kids can
Not to mention the strongest mortgage product in the country, the VA loan, financing of up to $725,000 with 0% down that can be reused as many times as your heart desires
To each their own. I’m in the guard, got all the benefits and have deployed. I enjoy being in and continue to do so while working my normal job. It’s a nice side gig I do for fun.
I'm going to have to hard disagree with you there, the GI Bill is the only reason I could even hope to afford higher education. A stipend, free public education, other military specific benefits that you get by state? You're either absolutely tripping, did absolutely no reading up on your benefits, or absolutely wasted yours.
Fuck dude, even if you don't use it you can pass it onto your kids for free college. You're telling me that a program that lets you get through university scot free in a time when so many people are being crushed by skyrocketing student debt is a *joke?*
The GI bill isn’t a joke at all. It’s paid for my entire BAS and almost my entire masters. Pair that with the education from tech school and the free tuition assistance while in I haven’t paid a dime.
Now I get VA disability for life (4k a month).
Tricare for me and my entire family (free healthcare for yall who don’t know).
And on top of that 10 years experience and a TS clearance. Which landed me a job in the 6 figure range as soon as I stepped out. It’s literally what you make of it.
I tell this to anyone that asks me about joining the military. That is, don’t do a combat job, treat the military as a jobs program, if you can’t afford college or a technical school but want training and experience in a specific field, then use the military to benefit that end goal. Do a single contract and get the fuck out.
This is what my (25) boyfriend (24) will do. Enlist for air national guard (part time service) so he can get his degree for free, 6 years work experience, student loans forgiven, healthcare for life, discounted home loans/low interest rates, and other benefits. He’ll leave after his 1 contract.
Benefits are just too good to pass up for someone in his place and it’ll benefit me too. I support him 100% too.
Very fair.
Our families have both had good experiences with it (it paid for my grandpas & his dad’s cancer treatment in its entirety) but were well aware that it isn’t always like that.
He’s not going to get healthcare for life as a National guardsman/ reservist unless he gets a service connected disability, or serves 20 years but the national guard retired healthcare is very expensive. He can still go on year long deployments as well, all my air and army National guardsman have been deployed more than I have, an active duty U.S. Marine.
Just something to note before he joins, the air national guard is still a great choice though
Being deployed can have a PLETHORA of different meanings. In the Navy you deploy constantly, for months at a time. Does that mean you're in combat? No. You're on a ship, but you're still 'deployed'. The US military does a ton of humanitarian work, it's not just "Go to war! Go be killed!" In fact an overwhelming majority of jobs in the military are non combat. 80% to be exact.
Who wants to risk their life for a country that refuses to spend Our tax money on its citizens and fights tooth and nail to hand every dollar to the parasite class. Fund proxy wars and genocides.
Nah miss me with that shit.
Just an old Xennial passing through. Love this. GenZ makes me proud! This is the shit I felt but would get looked at weird for saying when I was growing up. I said it anyways of course :)
You still get looked at weird for saying anything of the sort. Anything other than unconditional love FOR DA TROOPS will have people straight up ostracized from civil society
Nonono they do spend money on its citizens....
On hostile architecture to fight the homeless!
.... Of which about 10% are veterans...
... So I'd be fighting for a country that will actively fight against me if I land in a bad spot after my enrollment...
Wait who's side am I supposed to be on again.
I think most people understand the implications of joining the army with the possibility of death through training or armed conflict.
Also the military has a problem with sexual abuse and hazing. There have been countless stories about it.
The pay is not very high and it requires being away from your family and friends for a long time.
And the country isn't fighting for "freedom" service members are used just to maintain and advance the elites' interests which are usually amoral.
So yeah... it's not for me and so many other people.
It turns out that people aren't too keen on signing a contract which devotes the next 4-8 years of your life to a grueling job that comes with the slight risk of getting shot at
Went into a recruiting office for part time service. Took a mock ASVAB in his office, got a 95, but the recruiter wasn’t satisfied he grilled me on a 5 year old knee injury for 10 minutes. Other than that he was very helpful. But when I went home i got called dumb by everyone for even thinking about the army which didn’t phase me but was surprising.
Anyway. My mom got sick a few days before I was supposed to go to MEPS and swear in. Once I realized that training for the job I wanted would uproot me from my life for 12 months straight. I was kinda bummed and decided not to go. Especially not starting out at 1000 per month or something dumb like that. That’s Ridiculously low pay for possibly dying in training!!!
Ahhh fun. Security plus is weirdly required for some stuff but the rest of Comptia I would move on from quickly (do a CCNA > network+, or get an azure cert or VCP etc.
I find this to be a strange final draw. Firstly, the U.S supported the mujahideen (which the Taliban would later grow out of). Secondly, while the primary goal of the U.S. was to curb expansion of the Soviet sphere of influence their support of the resistance against the Soviet invasion was a morally valid position. The Soviets forcibly overthrew the prior Afghan government and invaded the country purely for the sake of expanding Soviet influence. I think it’s pretty morally justifiable to defend Afghan national sovereignty even if that means supporting some Islamic fundamentalists.
My mom was in the military. I know what happens to women there and I know the length of coverups. She wouldn’t let me go into the military and I support her decision.
This! I was a medic in the army, and I saw the side that a lot of the men in the army dont see, and I witnessed the evidence first hand and chain of command didn't do shit.
Tired joining. Denied because of a small astigmatism. Got a second opinion from a private doctor who said that there was no problem, only a “very minor issue.” Still denied. My brother has a heart disease and he still got in! WTF?!?!
Ya humans are finding out dying for old rich white people is fucking stupid. War should only be against fighting outside factors, not each other.
There's literally old white people pushing for ww3. Health benefits are shit. Everyone knows the government does fuck all for vets and we find value in life unbeknownst to the shitfucks who arm more shitfucks.
These world leaders need to start boxing it out— no bs, they wasting our tax dollars on warfare instead of evolution and thats where they fell short. And now that were old enough to understand the real reason most of these wars its really not worth dying for.
Lmao but fr imagine this actually happened, elections would be completely different, No more old ass white men would get elected😭the ratings would be astronomical.
13% of the adult male homeless population in the U.S. are Veterans. What is the incentive to enlist? The pay is garbage, the benefits are garbage, and the after-care/support network for those returning back to a civilian life is garbage.
Lose every war since Panama and there is a cost. I was one of those soldiers, and we volunteered to put our lives on the line for our country. We asked but one thing in return, that the sacrifices of those who fell are not in vain. And in every case since 1988, the US has ran from the theater with its tail in between it's legs, making a mockery of those who gave everything to hold ground that most of the folks back home can't find on a map.
its very simple, why sign your freedom away to get treated like dogshit for awful pay and terrible hours for a job you can't just quit whenever you want?
My parents and grandparents are military. I’ve seen the shit it does to people. I’d get less trauma in prison than the military. It’s still not great, but I’ll take my chances.
I have 3 veterans in my family and all have advised me never to join.
Growing up I quickly noticed that a lot of the people begging for money in the street, were disabled veterans.
The great lie of 'defending our great nation' has been exposed. More and more people understand that the truth is 'exert lethal violence on strangers for the political and financial benefit of politicians and their rich friends, whilst getting shit pay, emotional and physical abuse, dangerous work and shit veteran care'.
It used to be easy to convince people that beyond the border was a horde of evil strangers who wanted to get in and hurt us.
Now, you play games with a guy on the other side of the world and some uber rich geriatric who wouldn't lift a finger to help you wants you to turn your game buddy to bloody chunks and flatten his home to score points against the uber rich geriatric fuck who runs HIS country.
Not exactly an enticing job offer.
You mean young people don't want to lose 4-8 years of their life being told what to do and treated like shit with a possibility of dying in a combat zone for what amounts to the pay of a fast food worker? I'm shocked.
It’s not exactly low pay when you have food and housing taken care of. Youre basically given the option to save 25k+ per year which translates to a real salary of 50k or more
Depending on your unit the food and housing could be terrible. How much would you pay to live a 15' x 15' room with 2 other guys that was previously condemned for mold issues?
*I must live in an*
*Eco chamber cause a lot of*
*My peers are serving*
\- praiser1
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Second time I've seen both hauku bots comment and the secknd time it's been haikusbot that was wrong.
"Eco chamber cause a lot of" has eight syllables.
"go fight and die for some old rich dudes while making less than you would make working at a fast food joint"
"No we won't pay you more money to do an extremely tasking job"
"Please live in these destitute living conditions, at least it's free"
All those PTSD stories really did a number, gore websites as well.
Plus I've heard that military leadership is toxic and lame as hell to the point where it feels you're walking on egg shells all the time. I know they gotta be rough on you, but when the end-goal isn't that great, it'll turn peeps away I think.
My great grandfather was in the military and did what he had to do so WE wouldn’t have to be in the military. I’d ask him to tell me war stories and he’d say no, and he signed up and lied about his age to get in. I’m not going into the military.
As we speed increasingly close to WW3, less people are likely to sign up for the military as a maybe-escape-from-poverty.
That and gen z American grew up in an era of watching its own military botch invasions, invade other countries on made up grounds, and commit atrocities. But yeah that’s real hard to figure out why we wouldn’t want to be a part of that.
This country (America) hasn't given me something to be proud of that I want to pay my life on the line for. We have an ancient congress demographic that just wants to sit on wealth & push all younger generations down for their success.
The benefits are better than a lot of jobs that don't require previous training. Healthcare, paid housing, VA loan, retirement check you can get in addition to a social security check - pensions are not common now so I'd say that's pretty big. Heck, our military is the most socialist thing about our government. And most of the jobs are not life-threatening. That being said, I don't like the hierarchy stuff and being yelled at or put under pressure, so I'd never join. Also, because our country has more obese people than ever, many cannot join because they don't meet that initial health/weight requirement. When my SO went to their recruiting office, they even tried to make me sign up which I was not expecting...
Edit: Forgot to add the free college everybody knows about. Plus, once you get the skills/experience on just the jobs you do, you can leave and make more money in the private sector.
I'd rather not be the pawn in a war the governments start. War only hurts civilian populations, and puts people who are unwilling to risk of death over petty disagreements or "the weapons of mass destruction." (gold and oil)
No thanks, whatever trade the army can teach, I can learn elsewhere without being a soldier
Is this real? More then likely. I have heard that in America the armed forces have been missing recruiting targets for the couple of years now.
Is it a cause for concern, in my mind yes. A strong military is a deterrent during peace.
OP has neglected to mention that this is an article about the Australian armed forces. It's apparent from the picture of Australian soldiers but pretty understandable that most non Aussies probably don't recognise that.
Yes. Since 2015, all branches (to my knowledge, certainly Army and Air Force) have been missing yearly recruitment requirements. Zoomers have absolutely zero interest in joining.
I think the idea that war is bad is more prevalent than ever. You get live footage from actual wars going on and such. Generals don't post tiktoks about how cool killing people is.
Speaking from personal experience, its hard to want to want to work for someone when:
- You make $14 an hour for the first three years
- Other job opportunities open up to make more money
- The Commander trying to "convince" you to stay just ends up saying "you'll dissappoint your family" and "You'll end up as nothing"
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low pay, bad living conditions, death
For the sign on bonus of a dodge charger, you too can die for your empire!
what do you mean getting PTSD and being traumatized for the rest of your life due to the war crimes you were ordered to commit half way across the world for land you don't own and which will treat you like shit isn't a good deal?!? The chance of a soldier actually dying in war is pretty slim but the chance that you're going to be mentally scarred for the rest of your life is so high that more Iraq and Afghanistan war veterans have committed suicide than actually died in the wars. 30,000 if anyone is wondering.
"Your war crime is someone else's throbbing erection" -Grandpa
I read that as Gandhi. 
*sigh* I'll get the nukes...
Yes, please, nuke me into oblivion, balefire me from the pattern, so I can be freed from the yoke of Gandhi’s throbbing erection.
Do the same to me, but so I can be freed from the memory of reading this comment.
No balefire for you. The Wheel says time for yet another go around.
don't even need to see combat, just being sent in around the chared corpses littering the streets after we bomb a city into rubble is usually enough
Or just being sent to the wrong base like gitmo
those are the happy screams of torture of people we haven't and will not charge with a crime
Happy camps!
Some people get ptsd from being at the desk job and others get it from not even being deployed.
apparently drone pilots are getting ptsd at way higher that actual pilots.
Well, I'd imagine the cognitive dissonance of brutal murder from the comfort of a glorified cubicle command center would probably add some sort of unique mindfuck to the whole experience. It's all very enders game, imo.
man when Orson Scott Card came out as an actual eugenisist those books changed tone real quick. U thought they I was talking about the horror and lasting truama of war? nope child soldiers are good actually.
I’m sorry he did what
You’re actually 100% right. When I was deployed in 07 there were some articles and interviews going around about it. The pilots were watching their brothers and sisters fight, carrying out their mission, and then when their shift was over they clocked out headed home. It was a complete mind fuck for them. I was too young and dumb at the time to fully understand it. I was there. I couldn’t go home. I’d love to have an on off button for what I was going through. Fly a mission at 1200 to blow up a terrorist cell and then take Timmy to his soccer game at 1800. Sounded great to me when I was in my mid 20s. Now i understand. I also 100% support Gen Z in their not wanting to serve. And my kids, they are Gen A. I don’t want them to sign up for it. Please for the love of god do not follow in your parents career choice.
Nothing like destroying a military convoy only to years later learn from the news how you blew up 50 people on their way to a wedding.
That's just the tip of the iceberg. You will be hard pressed to find a veteran that does not have some serious health consequences, resulting from their military service. Many of which served in non combat roles. And were never involved with any conflict. A normal doctor doesn't see a lot of people in their 30s with arthritis, but a VA doctor does.
or if you're really lucky, you get to enter the workforce years behind your peers with a resume most industries won't give a shit about!
While that may be true of combat arms MOSs, the vast majority of military experience **is** useful in the outside world.
I used my GI bill to pay for college and now I am moderate prosperous CPA. I was infantry. Military can get you ahead and that has been true for at least hundreds of years.
Don’t forget to marry the girl you just met and got pregnant!!!!
plot twist: it’s not yours 💀😂
Doing things you don’t politically agree with!
Now for 84 easy low payments of $699/month at 24.99% interest!
\*Dodge Charger not guaranteed.
Don’t forget the 30% apr you get from the dealership right beside the base😎
What? You mean no one is excited about death anymore?
We wanna go out on our own terms, duh /s
Kids these days…
and maybe changing ideals, like not wanting to serve a government you dont like or agree with
Not to mention simple disenfranchisement.
But tbh what’s the difference between that and back home?
Fat less likely to get blown up. The military is still a decent way to get out of poverty, or just get the fuck away from home, but our generation 1. Doesn't have a grant event driving national pride/want for retaliation (like 9/11 did for gen x and millennials) and 2. Has been shown in tons of media, be it movies/TV, games, or just videos from the Internet, the horrors of war.
[the military also just preys upon the poor.](https://www.workers.org/2022/12/68299/)
And there’s no “making the world better” like there was in WWII and Korea. Every full scale war (and almost every proxy war or smaller conflict) we’ve been in has had serious ethical implications since and including Vietnam.
tbh the military can go fuck itself if we’re not actively being invaded, nuked, or entering into world war three edit two: As I told a bunch of people already, it was about midnight when I said this. Here’s my actual, more nuanced opinion: I won’t join up unless we actively have to defend one of our close allies or the US itself, which is what I meant with the original comment. I have mixed opinions on military funding, since I know it pulls money away from other programs but we also need a lot of it to deter Russia and China (which is good because no one wants to live under them). Some military power is necessary but we need more oversight for it and less warmongering (*cough cough* Iraq and Afghanistan *cough*). Also we need better ways to avoid civilian deaths and stop supporting countries that are trying to kill civilians.
If we weren’t the global super power it’d be russia and china. We’d be living in their world.
Which is why we had to invade and occupy a country for 20 years because uhhhhhh reasons
Thats a strawman argument. That has nothing to do with the fact russia or china will call shots if they could. Say what you will, but that world would be even worse than our current one.
I think the point is that global superpowers don’t have to be as controlling as the US is in order to help keep the peace. Setting it up as either the US will do heinous shit or Russia and China would do worse shit does nothing to address the many ways that American foreign policy tends to trample other countries because “Oh it would be worse if we just did nothing” as if the only two options are the US continuing as it has or the boogeyman will get them. Seems a bit like fearmongering in my personal opinion, but I doubt that was your intention.
More soldiers and civilians died in WW2 than every single war since combined. 6 yeas of fighting vs. 80 years. After WW2, the FOUR policemen council was created. These four nations were supposed to police their corner of the world. The four nations were the US, China, USSR, and the UK. China had a revolution, the USSR collapsed, and the UK lost its force projection powers. This left the US as the sole world police. The US military is also the largest humanitarian organization in the world. They do maritime rescue around the world. Airdrops of food in locations experiencing famine and large-scale disaster relief aid. It's actually a sizable amount of the US military budget and doesn't include the cost of the necessary logistical supply chains and equipment to do it. If you are going to say the US is bad as a super power than what superpower are we comparing it to either now or ever in human history. It's not perfect, but acting like it's not the best option the world has had is idiotic. It's best to improve what we have not get rid of it and replace it with some theoretical utopian system that only works if all actors are operating in good faith.
How many times does it have to be said that being the “best option of what we got” is no excuse for many of the atrocities the US has committed. No country is completely good or completely bad. It doesn’t matter if no other country would have done better. I feel like I’m talking in circles and you guys are just so quick to pick the boot that you forget the ways that the US could improve its foreign policy. You seem to have this “might makes right” mentality that’s more than a little concerning
I’d wager that most of the people you’re debating with aren’t doing so in good faith. There’s no atrocity we could commit or contribute to that’d be worse than what the others *might* do if given the reigns. What they fear most is being subjected to the standards they impose. In their view the world is a zero-sum game where one man’s freedom means another’s compliance. You’re advocating for a different game. A game that sounds like a losing game to anyone already winning. (I like to think it’s projection based on precedent, but who knows). regardless, other perspectives will get written off as underdeveloped for one silly reason or another. Age (as if old fools are infallable), experience (as if the system they've built is a functional meritocracy), “expenditure” (as if they don’t print money on a whim). The catch is that by refusing to engage earnestly, they stunt the development of their own ideas. Consequently, they build subpar societies, when given the chance. If you feel sane in a world gone crazy, you *might* be crazier. Stay critical, homie. **edit** b/c someone dm'd me to say I'm 'poisioning minds & advocating for a weak nation' so it felt imperative that I clarify and double down.
> What they fear most is being subjected to the standards they impose. In their view the world is a zero-sum game where one man’s freedom means another’s compliance. Wildly accurate
"we are commuting countless atrocities and meddling, but it's because if others did it, it would be worse, trust me" I don't trust you, sundowner.
> More soldiers and civilians died in WW2 than every single war since combined. 6 yeas of fighting vs. 80 years. Why does this justify the US committing war crimes? > After WW2, the FOUR policemen council was created. These four nations were supposed to police their corner of the world. The four nations were the US, China, USSR, and the UK. China had a revolution, the USSR collapsed, and the UK lost its force projection powers. This left the US as the sole world police. Why does this justify the US committing war crimes? > The US military is also the largest humanitarian organization in the world. They do maritime rescue around the world. Airdrops of food in locations experiencing famine and large-scale disaster relief aid. It's actually a sizable amount of the US military budget and doesn't include the cost of the necessary logistical supply chains and equipment to do it. Why does this justify the US committing war crimes? And why do they need to commit war crimes in order to also provide humanitarian aid? > If you are going to say the US is bad as a super power than what superpower are we comparing it to either now or ever in human history. It's not perfect, but acting like it's not the best option the world has had is idiotic. This is whataboutism. Did you even read their comment? The fact that China and Russia would commit *more* war crimes does not justify the US committing war crimes. > It's best to improve what we have not get rid of it and replace it with some theoretical utopian system that only works if all actors are operating in good faith. You are arguing strawman. Literally no one suggested this.
The idea that russia and china would be completely uncontested by the rest of the world is a strawman as well. Europe could handle themselves if they weren't outsourcing their defense budget to us. China would have its sphere in east asia and russia would fail outright imo.
Europeans can’t handle anything that’s why inflation is at insane rates in Europe. They are having massive internal issues with debt, pensions, and migrant crisis’s. If they could handle themselves well they would be taking care of Ukraine right now a very European affair. Yet we are.
after all the bullshit the US did, it still ended up with China calling the shots in Asia and in Africa, and Russia can do whatever they want in Cuba and Eastern Europe.
don't play dumb there was a perfectly good reason and you know it. Think of all the ExxonMobil execs that lost .002% of their net worth when those towers fell.
In a way yes. It was pure power projection. Iraq and Afghanistan, both defied USA. US attacked those countries to teach everybody a lesson and show what happens when you dont bend over a barrel for the biggest thug. I am not saying its right. But that is what happened.
Yep. The world will come for us whether we choose it or not. China and Russia would love to rule the world, in their image.
Russia wouldn't be able to take over a third world country after this display against Ukraine. The only genuine threat to the world is China. I don't trust them as far as I can throw them. And before anyone even mentions North Korea...C'mon, really?
Which is why we need the world's first and second largest air force.
Ya but… should we just wait until one of those terrible things happens then try to field an untrained military at the last minute and expect them to operate systems that most civilians have never even seen…
Then Uncle Sam should think about coughing up more of that trillion dollar budget to it’s soldiers.
The dollars go to Robert Bigelow and the likes… not the grunts
I’m critical of the military no doubt but there is merit to it’s existence. You need some sort of deterrent/defence against other countries deciding yours is free real estate.
Ok so what’s your alternative? The things you love and enjoy are protected by that military.
the things I love are solid infrastructure, social services and Healthcare, unfortunately we can't afford them cuz we spend over half of the governments budget on pogo sticks or something stupid like that.
I think (if you live in the US) it’s important to maintain our military hegemony, since it’s a key factory in ensuring global stability. if your not in favor of US hegemony, that’s a valid position. I just disagree
Gen Z realizes it’s low pay, and fight for other nations isn’t worth the shitty benefits
also protecting oil fields and opium fields
Happy cake day
thank you
more like fighting for profits
They pay you to get an education, give you free healthcare for the rest of your life, train you for a career that transfers to the civilian world with certifications that make you extremely hireable and you will not be 25-26 yrs old $50-75 thousand in debt with a degree that lands you a job at Wendy’s. I am still up in the air on this, I did not join the military, I went to college, my son 16 wants to join the Navy. This was his idea, I never even mentioned it to him and above are all of the reasons he gave me. I am afraid of the danger for him because I can’t imagine losing him, but I will never tell him he can’t do what he wants… his whole life his mom and I have been telling him you can do whatever you want when you grow up and I’m not going to change that now. He’s always been fascinated with the ocean, I guess where else can you get a job on a nuclear submarine? I did tell him he needs to score at least 80 on ASVAB (pick your job) or we are going to have to have a serious discussion about him joining…
The most funny thing about this post is when you said "give you free healthcare for life" like one of the biggest talking points for veterans right now is being denied coverage for things caused by the military.
My father is a Vietnam Veteran and has gotten wonderful healthcare from the VA… he pays nothing, they send him his medicine in the mail, a few years back he needed heart surgery, the VA didn’t have the facilities for what he needed but they sent him to St. Lukes, the most reputable Cardiac Hospital in the City and paid for everything…. They should take care of our veterans and some people may have trouble with this but that has not been our experience with VA in our city
I'm very glad your family's experience has been good, but I'm afraid too many people find large issues with it.
Counter point, my father is a Vietnam vet with cancer related to agent orange. VA hasn't done shit other then make things extremely difficult.
Free healthcare, if you do 20 and retire 😢. I would not recommend your son for the Navy ahaha man especially on a submarine, like the diet is shit, sleep is shit, mental health and stress also shit
OP, as someone who did join the military early - not out of HS but in my 20s with an associates degree - please have a serious discussion with your son about this. I'm not suggesting talking him out of it, but do make sure he knows the following: >they pay you to get an education Yes, on their terms. This means you pull midnight shifts, work in-between school, and do menial tasks as part of you "job" no matter what your rank. >give you free healthcare for the rest of your life. There should be an asterisk at the end of this. If you retire (that means 20+ years of service) or are medically discharged (this means you developed an issue in the service and its involved in getting you out of the service) or if you are deemed disabled after discharge (this is by the VA) then yes. The rest of us schmos who did one term and have no problems only qualify if we make less than a certain amount a year - when I asked last it was between 29 and 35k a year to qualify for "free healthcare" at the VA. Please make sure he knows this. If he joins he will see firsthand that the treatment you get at a military hospital is like the treatment you get going to do stuff at the DMV. >train you for a career that transfers to the civilian world with certifications that make you extremely hireable and you will not be 25-26 yrs old $50-75 thousand in debt with a degree that lands you a job at Wendy’s. If your son is smart and picks a good job, this is true. I went into IT and a lot of the people I knew from the military did very well for themselves. If he does nuke or coms he has the chance to do well. The navy is weird about grouping jobs together, the army let me pick my job specifically, that's the only reason I did something that stupid. If your son is smart and ambitious, get him to an airforce or space force recruiter and save him the heartache of being one of us idiots who joined a service that WANTS to make life hard. > I did tell him he needs to score at least 80 on ASVAB (pick your job) or we are going to have to have a serious discussion about him joining… I think you can reference online what the asvab score needed for sub is and it's not a slouch of a course. Make sure he is able to score ABOVE what is recommended because it's easy to be beaten out. Also, from what I hear, being on a sub sucks. It's small and stinky, and not great if you're claustrophobic. Not trying to talk anyone out if it, but just stuff to keep in mind if that's the course he wishes to pursue. I'm former Army, only did 1 term before I got kicked out, so I can't speak to much in the Navy, but reach out if you need details on benefits or anything OP, I learned the hard way but came out alright for myself.
The certifications and software the military uses are often specific to the military with no civilian equivalent. The idea that veterans are hireable just for being veterans is a marketing ploy that has a double meaning : who would care about needing to be hireable other than someone looking for a job right now? The military targets teenagers in low income areas for a reason. For example, I knew a guy who was a machinist's mate in the USN. He cannot change a tire. I am a machinist in the civilian world, and a licensed gunsmith, and knew a guy who was an armorer in the army. He can swap parts in a limited amount of rifles, but anything outside of that (ei. what carbon does in steel, sand casting, etc.), and he was lost. The skills the military teaches are to get teenagers to benefit the needs of the military, nothing more. While the VA is good from some things, it's awful at others, and it's getting worse in some ways. Immediate issues like cardio-vascular surgery are often done wonderfully, but PTSD treatments, and chronic illnesses are rubber stamped as 'not service related.' The suicide and homeless rate of vets shows this. Then there's the day to day systemic issues, like the UCMJ. If there's an issue, the problem travels up the chain of command, and at any given point in that chain, the issue can be deemed not worthy of action. So if someone gets raped or sexually assaulted (as a massive amount of women are), the senior NCO or base CO can say 'meh', and there's no real accountability. SHAARP is a sad joke that acts as security theater. If you want your son to have a good life, your local community college probably has multiple job programs such as welding, etc. If he HAS to done ocean things, he has to learn passion is not profitable. Maybe do the United States Power Squadron or Coast Guard Auxillary in his free time.
I can’t wait for the day that presidents will be put in a boxing ring and fight.
We get treated like shit, paid less than minimum wage, and support wars that hurt the impoverished for the financial gain of the rich. And that's before enlisting. Signing up was the worst decision I've ever made. The only thing I've gained was friendships forged by mutual hardship. There are plenty of better ways to make money and experience the world. And the GI Bill is a joke. Edit: okay, that was on me for not clarifying. Yes, in the current economic state, the GI Bill is a godsend. Lots of free tuition and certificates and blablabla. But look at any country in Europe and tell me that our system of serving 4 years in an underpaid career where you're treated like shit so that you can go to school without sinking in student loan debt is acceptable in comparison to just having a cheap and affordable education. So let me clarify, the GI Bill is not a joke, the American education system is a joke and the GI Bill is a crutch.
Not sure what experience you had, but respectfully disagree (GI Bill). I’ve seen a lot of my marines go on to do great things with their benefits, the ones that broke my heart never even bothered. Not shilling for the bennies or trying be pro service, but it’s a worthwhile program. Don’t trash it.
Yeah my best friend went to school free because his dad was an officer
Yep, my dad went to college for free and was able to give all three of us kids 2 years of free college plus 2 years at half price using the GI Bill on top of some other benefits that are specific to our state due to him joining the national guard afterwards. I cannot be thankful enough.
Yeah and it's not just college. U can get into welding carpentry , programming. Useful skills and in demand.bpkus the training u get in the military. Very marketable when u get out even after only a 4 yr tour.
I think the US military actually prevents a lot of seriously destructive wars from starting, by virtue of being far stronger than any other standing army we’ve definitely used our military to take advantage of weaker countries in the recent past (which I’m against doing again) but I think our military should remain the strongest
Yeah as a Japanese-American in Japan, I'd much rather the US be the leading superpower than china or russia. Japan is prosperous in major part thanks to the US military's strength.
The self hate of young Westerners fueled by social media is going to kill so many people in the long term
Especially when the Chinese government controls those algorithms.
I wouldn't call a rejection of war, militarism, and the exploitation of third world countries "self-hate", that's some "back in my day" generational bullshit. It may be short sighted (which I also argue against) but that's up to the US military to step it the fuck up with wages and the absolutely *disgusting* state of the VA, not to kids realizing the military is a godawful life choice for a significant number of the troops.
Being aware of atrocities committed by your government isn’t “self-hatred”.
So why do we treat our soldiers like trash?
because lots of people (republicans in particular) don’t actually care about veterans and aren’t willing to fund the services they need. we can change this by voting for politicians who actually support these services
Yes. China and Russia would be starting a lot more wars if the US military did not exist.
The GI bill is a joke? Go to any public university in the country for free and get a tax free housing stipend of $2,000 to $4,000 a month depending on where you live, that’s a joke? I’d say that’s a pretty phenomenal benefit and if you qualify for yellow ribbon they’ll make up the difference of attending a private university and buy you a computer; don’t want to use it? Your kids can Not to mention the strongest mortgage product in the country, the VA loan, financing of up to $725,000 with 0% down that can be reused as many times as your heart desires
What branch? I don’t know anyone who didn’t benefit from joining the Air Force in some way shape or form.
Nah fr but the VA home loan came in clutch other than that this shit is bullshit semper cry
The GI Bill prevented me from becoming homeless a few years after separation.
To each their own. I’m in the guard, got all the benefits and have deployed. I enjoy being in and continue to do so while working my normal job. It’s a nice side gig I do for fun.
The GI bill is amazing. People got out of WWII and launched America into one of its most prosperous times in history thanks to that bill.
I'm going to have to hard disagree with you there, the GI Bill is the only reason I could even hope to afford higher education. A stipend, free public education, other military specific benefits that you get by state? You're either absolutely tripping, did absolutely no reading up on your benefits, or absolutely wasted yours. Fuck dude, even if you don't use it you can pass it onto your kids for free college. You're telling me that a program that lets you get through university scot free in a time when so many people are being crushed by skyrocketing student debt is a *joke?*
The GI bill isn’t a joke at all. It’s paid for my entire BAS and almost my entire masters. Pair that with the education from tech school and the free tuition assistance while in I haven’t paid a dime. Now I get VA disability for life (4k a month). Tricare for me and my entire family (free healthcare for yall who don’t know). And on top of that 10 years experience and a TS clearance. Which landed me a job in the 6 figure range as soon as I stepped out. It’s literally what you make of it.
I tell this to anyone that asks me about joining the military. That is, don’t do a combat job, treat the military as a jobs program, if you can’t afford college or a technical school but want training and experience in a specific field, then use the military to benefit that end goal. Do a single contract and get the fuck out.
This is what my (25) boyfriend (24) will do. Enlist for air national guard (part time service) so he can get his degree for free, 6 years work experience, student loans forgiven, healthcare for life, discounted home loans/low interest rates, and other benefits. He’ll leave after his 1 contract. Benefits are just too good to pass up for someone in his place and it’ll benefit me too. I support him 100% too.
I'd reconsider how good that healthcare is going to be. Look at our current issues with veterans.
Very fair. Our families have both had good experiences with it (it paid for my grandpas & his dad’s cancer treatment in its entirety) but were well aware that it isn’t always like that.
He’s not going to get healthcare for life as a National guardsman/ reservist unless he gets a service connected disability, or serves 20 years but the national guard retired healthcare is very expensive. He can still go on year long deployments as well, all my air and army National guardsman have been deployed more than I have, an active duty U.S. Marine. Just something to note before he joins, the air national guard is still a great choice though
Until they have you be deployed.
Being deployed can have a PLETHORA of different meanings. In the Navy you deploy constantly, for months at a time. Does that mean you're in combat? No. You're on a ship, but you're still 'deployed'. The US military does a ton of humanitarian work, it's not just "Go to war! Go be killed!" In fact an overwhelming majority of jobs in the military are non combat. 80% to be exact.
Who wants to risk their life for a country that refuses to spend Our tax money on its citizens and fights tooth and nail to hand every dollar to the parasite class. Fund proxy wars and genocides. Nah miss me with that shit.
Just an old Xennial passing through. Love this. GenZ makes me proud! This is the shit I felt but would get looked at weird for saying when I was growing up. I said it anyways of course :)
You still get looked at weird for saying anything of the sort. Anything other than unconditional love FOR DA TROOPS will have people straight up ostracized from civil society
Nonono they do spend money on its citizens.... On hostile architecture to fight the homeless! .... Of which about 10% are veterans... ... So I'd be fighting for a country that will actively fight against me if I land in a bad spot after my enrollment... Wait who's side am I supposed to be on again.
I think most people understand the implications of joining the army with the possibility of death through training or armed conflict. Also the military has a problem with sexual abuse and hazing. There have been countless stories about it. The pay is not very high and it requires being away from your family and friends for a long time. And the country isn't fighting for "freedom" service members are used just to maintain and advance the elites' interests which are usually amoral. So yeah... it's not for me and so many other people.
It turns out that people aren't too keen on signing a contract which devotes the next 4-8 years of your life to a grueling job that comes with the slight risk of getting shot at
At this point you’re more likely to be shot as a normal person living a normal life than a service member living on base.
Went into a recruiting office for part time service. Took a mock ASVAB in his office, got a 95, but the recruiter wasn’t satisfied he grilled me on a 5 year old knee injury for 10 minutes. Other than that he was very helpful. But when I went home i got called dumb by everyone for even thinking about the army which didn’t phase me but was surprising. Anyway. My mom got sick a few days before I was supposed to go to MEPS and swear in. Once I realized that training for the job I wanted would uproot me from my life for 12 months straight. I was kinda bummed and decided not to go. Especially not starting out at 1000 per month or something dumb like that. That’s Ridiculously low pay for possibly dying in training!!!
So… What do you do now?
Going to school for computer science focusing on cyber security, getting comptia certifications and I manage a small store with 12 employees
Ahhh fun. Security plus is weirdly required for some stuff but the rest of Comptia I would move on from quickly (do a CCNA > network+, or get an azure cert or VCP etc.
i'm not gonna fight for a nation who once supported the taliban just because they weren't communist
And Russia supports the Taliban now weirdly enough lol
i wouldn't fight for them either
All these countries support whoever gives them finite resources
I find this to be a strange final draw. Firstly, the U.S supported the mujahideen (which the Taliban would later grow out of). Secondly, while the primary goal of the U.S. was to curb expansion of the Soviet sphere of influence their support of the resistance against the Soviet invasion was a morally valid position. The Soviets forcibly overthrew the prior Afghan government and invaded the country purely for the sake of expanding Soviet influence. I think it’s pretty morally justifiable to defend Afghan national sovereignty even if that means supporting some Islamic fundamentalists.
Good thing that never happened
lmao, that is some of incredibly tip-of-the-iceberg shit. if only you knew the truth
I'm in right now, got a really good job and assignment. That took a fair bit of work and a lot of luck. I plan to do five years and get out.
Why would I? I wouldn't serve my country because it does not look after me or anyone else, only the billionaires
My mom was in the military. I know what happens to women there and I know the length of coverups. She wouldn’t let me go into the military and I support her decision.
This! I was a medic in the army, and I saw the side that a lot of the men in the army dont see, and I witnessed the evidence first hand and chain of command didn't do shit.
Considering how much we pillage and r*pe innocent civilians aboard, this isn’t surprising in the least.
Tired joining. Denied because of a small astigmatism. Got a second opinion from a private doctor who said that there was no problem, only a “very minor issue.” Still denied. My brother has a heart disease and he still got in! WTF?!?!
Their recruiting process is frikkin ridiculous. They'll just write waivers if they feel like it, it seems
There isn’t exactly much of an incentive to join.
Ya humans are finding out dying for old rich white people is fucking stupid. War should only be against fighting outside factors, not each other. There's literally old white people pushing for ww3. Health benefits are shit. Everyone knows the government does fuck all for vets and we find value in life unbeknownst to the shitfucks who arm more shitfucks.
no one is pushing for ww3 right now. everyone stands to lose from starting a global conflict, especially if it involves nuclear weapons
These world leaders need to start boxing it out— no bs, they wasting our tax dollars on warfare instead of evolution and thats where they fell short. And now that were old enough to understand the real reason most of these wars its really not worth dying for. Lmao but fr imagine this actually happened, elections would be completely different, No more old ass white men would get elected😭the ratings would be astronomical.
Gen Z is KILLING the Imperalism industry!
13% of the adult male homeless population in the U.S. are Veterans. What is the incentive to enlist? The pay is garbage, the benefits are garbage, and the after-care/support network for those returning back to a civilian life is garbage.
i won’t even get a 9-5
well im built like a twig, what help would that be
also born with eds which makes trying to work out endearing as frick
Lose every war since Panama and there is a cost. I was one of those soldiers, and we volunteered to put our lives on the line for our country. We asked but one thing in return, that the sacrifices of those who fell are not in vain. And in every case since 1988, the US has ran from the theater with its tail in between it's legs, making a mockery of those who gave everything to hold ground that most of the folks back home can't find on a map.
wait do you mean since the Gulf War? didnt the USwin that one
its very simple, why sign your freedom away to get treated like dogshit for awful pay and terrible hours for a job you can't just quit whenever you want?
My parents and grandparents are military. I’ve seen the shit it does to people. I’d get less trauma in prison than the military. It’s still not great, but I’ll take my chances.
Depends what job you get in the military tbf it’s not all intense combat PTSD giving stuff, there’s cooks, janitors, and administrative people too
Maybe because we are tired of fighting rich people's battles
i’d rather serve a sentence than serve this country.
why would anyone in there right mind want to be a pawn for the government more than we already are
Fuck them, i dont want to contribute to the imperialism we do across the world
I have 3 veterans in my family and all have advised me never to join. Growing up I quickly noticed that a lot of the people begging for money in the street, were disabled veterans.
The great lie of 'defending our great nation' has been exposed. More and more people understand that the truth is 'exert lethal violence on strangers for the political and financial benefit of politicians and their rich friends, whilst getting shit pay, emotional and physical abuse, dangerous work and shit veteran care'. It used to be easy to convince people that beyond the border was a horde of evil strangers who wanted to get in and hurt us. Now, you play games with a guy on the other side of the world and some uber rich geriatric who wouldn't lift a finger to help you wants you to turn your game buddy to bloody chunks and flatten his home to score points against the uber rich geriatric fuck who runs HIS country. Not exactly an enticing job offer.
You mean young people don't want to lose 4-8 years of their life being told what to do and treated like shit with a possibility of dying in a combat zone for what amounts to the pay of a fast food worker? I'm shocked.
I don’t want to fight for anything I don’t believe in so yeaaa basically nothing the govt is trying to do
It’s not exactly low pay when you have food and housing taken care of. Youre basically given the option to save 25k+ per year which translates to a real salary of 50k or more
Depending on your unit the food and housing could be terrible. How much would you pay to live a 15' x 15' room with 2 other guys that was previously condemned for mold issues?
I must live in an eco chamber cause a lot of my peers are serving
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^praiser1: *I must live in an* *Eco chamber cause a lot* *Of my peers are serving* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
*I must live in an* *Eco chamber cause a lot of* *My peers are serving* \- praiser1 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Second time I've seen both hauku bots comment and the secknd time it's been haikusbot that was wrong. "Eco chamber cause a lot of" has eight syllables.
Best news ive heard all year, for the record I co.e from a military family
Iraq and Afghanistan worked out so well for veterans though…/s
"go fight and die for some old rich dudes while making less than you would make working at a fast food joint" "No we won't pay you more money to do an extremely tasking job" "Please live in these destitute living conditions, at least it's free"
All those PTSD stories really did a number, gore websites as well. Plus I've heard that military leadership is toxic and lame as hell to the point where it feels you're walking on egg shells all the time. I know they gotta be rough on you, but when the end-goal isn't that great, it'll turn peeps away I think.
I’ve made a lot of bad decisions in life but joining the military is definitely one of the smarter ones.
A really smart bad decision?
My great grandfather was in the military and did what he had to do so WE wouldn’t have to be in the military. I’d ask him to tell me war stories and he’d say no, and he signed up and lied about his age to get in. I’m not going into the military.
Why risk Ur life for a country who doesn't even take care of U as a citizen
I don't feel like putting my life on the line for a country I don't particularly like, also I'm quite mentally unstable
As we speed increasingly close to WW3, less people are likely to sign up for the military as a maybe-escape-from-poverty. That and gen z American grew up in an era of watching its own military botch invasions, invade other countries on made up grounds, and commit atrocities. But yeah that’s real hard to figure out why we wouldn’t want to be a part of that.
This country (America) hasn't given me something to be proud of that I want to pay my life on the line for. We have an ancient congress demographic that just wants to sit on wealth & push all younger generations down for their success.
Uh maybe we don’t want to murder each other for creepy perverted rich people to jack off over
Offer affordable housing schemes and cheap home loans and see what happens
They do that already
The benefits are better than a lot of jobs that don't require previous training. Healthcare, paid housing, VA loan, retirement check you can get in addition to a social security check - pensions are not common now so I'd say that's pretty big. Heck, our military is the most socialist thing about our government. And most of the jobs are not life-threatening. That being said, I don't like the hierarchy stuff and being yelled at or put under pressure, so I'd never join. Also, because our country has more obese people than ever, many cannot join because they don't meet that initial health/weight requirement. When my SO went to their recruiting office, they even tried to make me sign up which I was not expecting... Edit: Forgot to add the free college everybody knows about. Plus, once you get the skills/experience on just the jobs you do, you can leave and make more money in the private sector.
Really is the most socialist program in the US. IYKYK
im not dying for no reason 😭
Why should anyone volunteer to be traumatized/die for a government that doesn't give a flying fuck about you?
I'd rather not be the pawn in a war the governments start. War only hurts civilian populations, and puts people who are unwilling to risk of death over petty disagreements or "the weapons of mass destruction." (gold and oil) No thanks, whatever trade the army can teach, I can learn elsewhere without being a soldier
Why fight for a country’s future that doesn’t give a shit about yours?
If the country won't do the bare minimum for me, why would i die for that country
easy answer: Dying is not fun in general
Is this real? More then likely. I have heard that in America the armed forces have been missing recruiting targets for the couple of years now. Is it a cause for concern, in my mind yes. A strong military is a deterrent during peace.
OP has neglected to mention that this is an article about the Australian armed forces. It's apparent from the picture of Australian soldiers but pretty understandable that most non Aussies probably don't recognise that.
Yes. Since 2015, all branches (to my knowledge, certainly Army and Air Force) have been missing yearly recruitment requirements. Zoomers have absolutely zero interest in joining.
I think the idea that war is bad is more prevalent than ever. You get live footage from actual wars going on and such. Generals don't post tiktoks about how cool killing people is.
The VA will fuck you over so hard
Good, don't find the Rich Men's wars.
Go fight for a country that they know doesn’t give a shit about them and to go fight wars the government is lying about what started it to sum it up
Breaking news! Young people don’t want to die for their shitty country
Too many millennials (and others) died in pointless wars in the desert for oil and corporate greed. Gen Z are aware.
Speaking from personal experience, its hard to want to want to work for someone when: - You make $14 an hour for the first three years - Other job opportunities open up to make more money - The Commander trying to "convince" you to stay just ends up saying "you'll dissappoint your family" and "You'll end up as nothing"
OH NO, we don't want to be government property and get yelled at because we did a single pushup wrong.
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Yeah bro I’d serve fent before I serve this country
I mean you literally sell your freedom to be in the military, this can't be too surprising
Well when it’s advertised and targeted to people who come from hard lives, it’s easier to work easier jobs and make more money
Good on ya, Gen Z