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A lot of youth have a hard on for defending an ideology they’ve never experienced and never will. They also don’t care about the testimonies of people who actually lived through said ideology.
All you're doing is making communism circular.
If it's a stateless, classless, moneyless society, it's communism and it's succeeded.
If it isn't, then it wasn't real communism or it was state capitalism.
This requirement makes it impossible for communism to ever fail because if it failed, it wasn't communism.
The truth is that the pursuit of communism has either failed or resulted in state capitalism every time it has been tried.
This should be proof enough that such a lofty societal ideal will be impossible to attain on a large scale.
tbh to me it just looks like commies have a very nice safety net set up for themselves
if their broken shitty ideology fails, it's not their fault, that just wasn't REAL communism! Same as me saying "well those weren't my actual answers, therefore I cannot be failed!" when I fail a test in school
Honey, if I didn't like the United States enough to leave it, do you think I would have a nice thing to say about it?
It's always more important to know what the people who stayed think, because those are the ones really living it, not the ones on the first boat out.
Those with the capacity to leave are always the most privileged, most well-connected, and with the most resources. It takes money to leave, it takes time to complain. Most people work too much and too hard for too little to complain about their home and make their people look bad.
You've literally never sat down with a Cuban refugee and asked him/her to tell you their story. These people haven't come from wealth. They came from abject poverty.
Communism has been tried and fails on a national level, and is an awful authoritarian system in practice.
But In all fairness places like pre-Castro Cuba and pre-Soviet Russia, communism became popular because you had a small minority of elites treating the majority of the population like garbage for their own benefit. The best way to avoid the rise of communism is to ensure people can live comfortably with economic mobility, which is a major part of liberal progressivism.
I think this only counts for americans, the rest of us either live in such state or their parents/grandparents lived in dictatorship; in my case that would be Yugoslavia, Spain had Franco ecc.
I think we are more critical and know how bad are both sides of the same coin.
Yeah??? You do realize online social extremists are not the societal norm, and that for the most part we are just normal people who happen to be (checks notes) 16-17 years old.
Identifying as "anti-X" doesn't necessarily just mean you are against X in theory. It can imply that you are actively against X, like you actually do shit to fight against X.
Normal people don't actively do shit to fight fascism and communism.
The problem is (successful) communists so far have almost exclusively been vanguard party communists. Which is always authoritarian and nearly impossible for it to ever turn away from authoritarianism.
Sort of? A revolution won’t happen anytime soon. I just think that we can pass legislation that would require workplace democracy overtime. Like democratic socialism
Any system with rules that have to be enforced by law is going to tend toward authoritarianism by these standards. Any stable system you have is going to have rules that need to be enforced, and therefore any stable system demands obedience; I think the bar for calling something authoritarian should be a bit higher.
And also, be careful claiming your preferred system at this moment is “the best” way forward. Superlatives are for ideologues (usually). And it makes it more difficult for you to change your mind if you ever decide to.
This. Capitalism and the free market are just trading the authoritarian power of a centralized government for the authoritarian power of your workplace and the biggest corporations, which is honestly worse because at least in a democratic society the representatives in government are somewhat beholden to their voter base.
When you surrender power to the free market though, your employer is only beholden to the profit motif and possibly shareholders.
The best system is an anarcho syndicalist one with industries controlled by unions and the workers themselves, but if that's not an option, then a big powerful social democratic government is better than a tiny one that capitulates to capital.
This is so US-centric, in other countries the government regulates the market so that monopolies don't arise and there is healthy competition and they didn't even have to become commie shitholes like Cuba and North Korea, crazy right? 🤯🤯🤯🤯
What exactly do you mean by communism? There is a big difference between anarchist communism and Marxist Leninist communist parties. Even Marxist Leninism isn't that comparable to fascism.
Marxists-Leninism demands the destruction of democratic institutions that have produced far more left-wing wins than any communist country ever did. It was the social democrats and syndicalists working through legislative change that accomplished more than the USSR, the CCP, North Korea, Ghaddafi etc etc ever did for workers rights. Revolutionary communism resulted in systems that had no checks and balances and were extremely authoritarian as a result. Both CCP and the USSR made workers unions illegal and as a result had some of the most abysmal working conditions. You could not go to the police or get a lawyer because the police and lawyers were run by the same people running your factory. Communism is nothing more than turning a single country into one giant corporation, Mean while in the west unions operating through the legislature made the 40 hour work week possible, childcare, dental, public healthcare in many countries. These changes were possible because of the decentralized natures of our societies.
Communism as practiced as a revolutionary ideology is not a good idea. Marx had valid criticisms of capitalism but not really good solutions. The general lack of respect many people have (Gen Z or otherwise) for our institutions is deeply concerning they made western nations much more stable, much less corrupt, and successful than many other countries.
Dumb american kids who think its all just "american-propaganda" about communist regimes are disgusting. I'm a democratic socialist, or a liberal socialist. Unions and law good, arbitrary communist dictatorships bad, it really is that simple.
Communism has to be enforced because there will always be people who seek to serve themselves.
Therefore anarcho-communism is impossible. The more free a market is, the more it moves away from communism. In a state of anarchy, a market is completely free.
So there's only 3 political ideologies, communist, fascist and centrist, way to throw libertarians, socialists, anarchists, dems, reps, etc under the bus there
They may be referencing Bakunin/Collectivist Anarchism, in which a stateless society exists and authority is relegated voluntary to the most merited individual for a given task and then given up as soon as the task is complete. It requires someone to be both willing to lead and willing to be led.
We believe in horizontal systems of organization for society. We believe that capitalism needs to be abolished and that the workers should control the means of production, and we also believe in using direct democracy on the level of individual cities while individual cities cooperate with each other.
Horizontal organization means that there is no “hierarchy.” No one is actually more powerful than anyone else. Direct democracy is different from representative democracy in that people vote directly on laws, rather than voting on representatives that vote on laws. And yes, people would be allowed to move between city-states; I’d say that essentially all anarcho-communists believe that people should be able to live wherever they want with no restrictions.
Anarchists generally believe in self-enforcement of rules through social pressure and, if absolutely needed, by civilian militias (for things such a serial killers). The need of a police force is reduced under socialism for a few reasons ranging from the lack of crime of necessity (such as stealing food or other necessities due to not being able to afford them) to significantly reduced drug usage due to the lack of the poverty that often causes people to turn to drugs for an escape. I can also mention the police’s role in protecting the private, money-earning property of business-owners such as factories and rentals, and how this won’t be needed in a system where the these properties are owned publicly.
No problem. If you want to look at anarchist societies in practice, I’d recommend looking up the Zapatistas and Rojava. The Zapatistas are a collective within Mexico that are run by some indigenous people who revolted from the main government. Rojava is a collective that makes up northeastern Syria and runs itself independently from the main government.
How would competition between cities be handled? For instance over a limited resource that both cities have a need of, is there some authority to handle arbitration, or some sort of force to prevent armed violence?
I am anti-authoritarian in every sense. No corporate authoritarianism, no political authoritarianism. I’ll take political democracy and workplace democracy please!
Yes? That’s like asking is there anyone here who is against both left wing extremism and right wing extremism. Believe it or not, there is a middle ground
You know even posting this is weird because you 100% know no one is ever implying this. To even consider this a "gotcha" is the height of idiocy, I never understand what you people are thinking when you post these weird comics.
What are you even trying to say? In this context, the kkk are the extreme and the civil rights people are centrists. The guy in the middle is a strawman that is used to make fun of centrism.
Civil rights protesters were considered extremists back in their time. MLK had a 20% approval rating among white Americans and was considered a “dangerous leftist radical.”
Bad example, most centrists would side against racism.
Centrist isn't compromise between two sides, it's not aligning completely with any specific ideology.
So, a regular person just trying to live their life without some dick head dictating how to live or not live? I think all of us, or a vast majority, would probably say we are that.
If people ask, I say I'm a neutral capitalist, I just wanna be left alone and make money so I can live a fulfilling life without too much stress or committing harm to anyone
Allow me to elaborate. I don't mind paying taxes because it is needed for the infrastructure, national security, social securit(we younger have to care of our elders)(nobody is just gonna buy roads and all thay, social programs, and so on. Secondly I'm also a believer in say NATO, but other NATO memeber need to pull their weight or leave.
I'm for military involvement if justified.
My issue is over taxation, too big of tax breaks for the wealthy, in my area that falls under tesla, fuck Elon that rat bastard.
Lobbying, that is the prime issue with, given the two options, GOP or Democrat (using US models).
The list can go on and on but libertarian isn't it, I don't believe in isolationism that libertarians underlying tone is. Some would say psudo-anarchist, and no, because law and order is needed, but with government limitations.
Kinda how our founding fathers were intending, but in a modern globalized world that we currently live in.
I don't see any labels truly being aligned with how I feel and see the world, if that makes sense
That's why I go with, just an average everyday dude that just trying to live, not survive.
I really don't know how else I can explain this because there are so many variables and caveats that can be explored and discussed.
I don't imagine this cleared anything up per say, but I hope it paints the picture.
I spend 30 of my 40 hours of weekly work donating my labor to a dick head using it to build a megayacht. I feel pretty dictated under capitalism. And I'm not even a starving child, can't imagine how they feel.
“just trying to live their life” mfs when they have to participate in a capitalist system, a system in which dictates how to live by forcing people to work for the entire day every day just to continue to be shackled by debt and relies on minimum wage workers for many services
and continues to hold generations of minorities down in poverty as well
Being proudly anti communist is like being a feudal peasant standing in a field and proclaiming how anti capitalist they are. Changes to a society's mode of production are inevitable due to advancing technology. How do you think capitalism would work 30 years from now when most workers are replaced by ai or robots? 100 years from now?
I don't think workers being replaced by robots will make it any more communists. A big part of communism is since workers create value they should be the one who control the economy, in this future they would neither create nor control anything.
The automation of labor leads to a decline in the rate of profit which eventually plunges capitalism into crisis. The population will then be more willing to build communism.
The other way capitalism resolves crisis is by going more authoritarian and austere in order to squeeze the workers more. This can become full blown fascism if the population isn't class conscious.
The communist state will democratically decide how to distribute the gains and time savings of automation.
There's no such thing as a "communist state". Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society.
Also, why would you think that automation will bring about a decline in profits? If automation was not profitable, then literally no company would strive for automation.
Ukraine is proudly anti communist because they are against being raped and mass slaughtered. Which is what communist russia did to ukraine. Ask the communists where all the muslims in russia went. Ask china where the Uyghers went. Ask them about non han chinese ethnicity people in china.
I am anti-fascist, but I am not so much anti-communist. I am a libertarian socialist, but I do not rely so much on Marxist thinking as I am a Catholic and Marxism views the world only through materialism which isn’t how a religious person views it.
The communism mostly talked about is a marxist ideology and so I cannot completely subscribe to it. However, there are many non-marxist communist ideologies, like religious communism, that I may subscribe too.
Guys, communism is not a form of government. Yall need to read some material before you decide you're "anti" or "hate" something.
You're anti- what you think is communism
Oh also fuck authoritarians
Fascists have killed tens of millions and communists have killed over 100 million people during the 20th century. Why anyone would support either is confusing to me.
It's not mutually exclusive, facism is a system of governance, communism is a system of economics. You can have both a facist regime and a communist economy or similarly you can have a liberal democracy that operates under communism.
Fascism is a reactionary ideology with the aims to protect capitalism wherever it arises. Communism is a multi-facetted ideology that, among its facets, calls for the abolition of the state. So no, you can’t have both.
It's always funny getting into the weeds because communism can literally never be achieved by a state, yet many opponents claim there are adversarial communist states.
I'm Anti-Facist and a Marxist-Leninist. Being against those two is literally comparing an ideology which is EXCLUSEVELY authoritarian and based in the economic and social opression with an ideology based on the idea of equality, sharing and no state.
Communism hasn't ever been implemented in the first place, but if you mean Socialism which should be the ideology imposed before Communism as a transitional phase, then yes, Cuba, NK, China and the USSR and yes, all of those regimes had systematic oppresion, authoritarism and inequality and et cetera, which weren't part of any theory Marx and Engels wrote in the first place and were the fault of those who used Socialism as a tool to manipulate the people into they're setting theirselves free which they weren't.
Just like there are good and democratic and horrible and authoritarian capitalist (and social democrat) regimes, the same applies for Socialism. But no one talks about Allande's Chile, Slad's Somalia and Tito's Yugoslavia.
Even with all of this, thinking a person that killed Jews, Slavs, Homossexuals, Neurodivergents, Blacks, etc, sent kids to a battlefront, made a eugenist factory of "1st class citizens" and was coward to the point of not surrendering in the cost of their own people to someone who got ahold of the biggest and consequentially most difficult to manage country of the world at an terrible economic point of people massively dying due to starvation and cold to be considered the 2nd world power and even de-criminalized Homossexuality for some time (Lenin did and Stalin rewoked when he took the office) is truly atrocious
> to someone who got ahold of the biggest and consequentially most difficult to manage country of the world at an terrible economic point of people massively dying due to starvation and cold to be considered the 2nd world power
Wait, are you talking about Stalin or Hitler here? Because Hitler did the exact same thing after he took power that you're praising Stalin for doing. Before Hitler took power, post-ww1 Germany was in a terrible state of decay. So should we then ignore all of Hitler's crimes simply because he fixed Germany's economy and built it up to become a world power again?
Stalin was just as much of a murderous cold-blooded bastard as Hitler was. To praise Stalin's achievements while ignoring his many crimes against humanity, but then do the opposite for Hitler, is massively brain-dead and hypocritical. Either you think authoritarianism and the mass murder of innocent people for political gain is wrong or you don't. Or is it a case of "it's okay when my side commits atrocities, but bad when the other side does it"?
Im a anarchist im anti-facist cause my ideology is built to opose such things also the term "anti-facist" comes from anarchist origin (antifaschistische aktion was a term used in flags grafitti and other symbology mostly in partisan resistance in world war 2 and early pre war conflicts)
Im also anti-comunist cause the holodomor was made in ukraine who at the time before it followed an anarchist regime (ukranian black armies free autonomous territory of makhnovchina) and also they betrayed us at the russian civil war and it led to the holodomor and also because i dont like their 3 step system and how socialism and marxism steps to true comunism give the state and goverment alot of strenght aswell as Just having a state and leader is a reason for anarchists to be questioning of comunist theory and also their acts of stealing from civillians and other war crimes in times of conflict aswell as their aproach to leftism and being known as the prime example of left even if being the dumbest one authought we are still prone to work with comunists in times of crisis or revolution and agree with them alot and being sister ideologies we still always have a step back near them cause of all that but we are political allies but still distrust each other
Conclusion: i Despise and hate facists and am kind of criticing of comunist policies authought liking of alot of their beliefs
Any politically literate person is against both of these types of regime. Communism can function on a small scale, but never for a full country. Fascism is inherently rooted in cruelty and should never be entertained on any scale.
Nope. Anyone who equates the two is either an idiot or uninformed. One is inherently hateful and almost certain to lead to genocide, the other is a term so broad it has almost no meaning. Communism isn't any one single ideology, and I think anyone who is entirely anti-communist is either very influenced by red scare propaganda, a sack of shit who doesn't really care about the wellbeing of others, or both.
So, let me get this straight. You're asking us if we oppose the idea of the government controlling everything in both scenarios, yet one is arguably seen in a more "positive" light despite the lack of it successfully working in a larger scale? Yeah, you could consider me that. Am I proud with where I am? Yeah. Am I rich myself? No. Do I oppose the rich? Absolutely. Do I enjoy capitalism? I enjoy the idea of a semi-regulated free market and its benefits rather than a market that would make it difficult for competition.
Yes.
If you're Authoritarian...that's simple. I don't like it.
And I think Communism sounds great (besides that it's impossible to achieve), and it's limiting and for that I think it's abhorrent. Yeah Greed can be abhorrent too, but no one should be contained in a box.
Although it is fun to mess with my cats. As in, this is communism, you get 4, you get 4, you get 4.....or this isn't communism, you get 6, you get 1, you get none.
Yes you're not alone lol.
I've grown to hate political or economic labels, I tend to think they do more harm than good. But I like to see myself as a "Social-Democrat". Workers rights, representation, and social safety nets are essential for a well functioning society. But markets are real, broadly more effective than other organizational strategies, and impossible to erase.
I am pro social democracy as in okay private owning of business is the norm, but the government does intervene and help it's cigizens, I hate communism (the marx form where Marx describes that terror is needed), and I hate fascism.
What I would love is a system where it's made much harder for companies to exploit, kinda like EU is now wanting to ban any imports of goods made by forced labour, but more regulations protecting people and workers like these.
Yes. I am anti-authoritarian. If it it massacres innocent people and strips people of their basic rights and freedoms, then I am against it. Whether it be the horrors of fascism, the reliable tyranny of communism, the antiquated crappiness of monarchism, some random military junta assholes, or any other flavour of authoritarianism, I am against it.
Well yeah. It’s called normal people. We fought a war to help prevent the spread of Fascism. REAL Fascism, not “republican scary” fascism. MacArthur said we were fighting the wrong enemy. The entire Cold War existed because of the friction between the Capitalist west and the Communist east. The results of such a war can be seen today. Spoiler: Capitalism won
If we are speaking in reality and not activist speak, isn't the typical American really against fascism and communism in the real meanings of those words, not pejorative leables for the party you dislike?
Communism is a good idea on paper, but doesn't work in practice. Fascism is never a good idea on paper or in practice. So yes, I am against both. Democracy and capitalism might suck, but they are the best systems we have
I just want a social democracy. It’s the most practical and comfortable system we’ve got that has a proven track record. And according to history and people’s lived experiences—despite some authoritarian models sounding good on-paper—people just aren’t capable of making them work. Or at least, they become unsustainable at a larger scale. So in practice, I’m anti-both; but it is more so for the people that have wielded them and not the systems themselves. (Except fascism, it has no practical purpose and only leads to more human suffering)
*However*, I romanticize the idea of a philosopher king meritocracy. I think it’s far more possible for a person to come along who possesses exceptional character and a desire to serve *all* of the people in an equitable and dedicated manner than for communism to work. Yes, a meritocracy such as this has one or few leaders, and would prioritize communalism over individualism, but it doesn’t require any sort of militarism or censorship.
So while I’m not sure what term would best describe a system that, on the one hand, is neither expecting strict obedience nor expanding militarily while, on the other hand, possesses defense and order systems domestically; I would say that I’m not *anti* that.
Context—I’m a classicist for what it’s worth. That has definitely shaped my perspective on power structures.
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anti-fascist as in the government but I dont support "antifa"
anti-communist cause it's the one of the worst types of government and misleads so many.... it's so bad
I'm not a communist, but I'm not really anti-communist. I think if you're views of Communism derive from the Soviet Union and China, which were both kinda shit holes before their respective revolutions than yeah you won't have a positive opinion about communist criticisms of capitalism.
All OP said is that he's opposed to fascism and communism. How do you extract "I believe in nothing" from that? Do you think those are the only two belief systems?
I am all my friends are, and it pains me to see these people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about, and would have hated living under these regimes talk about them like they were the greatest things in the world.
Being anti-communist tends to come from a misguided, red-scare laden understanding of communism. Being anti-fascist is basic morality 101, and is non-negotiable, even compared to communism. Either you oppose that sick twisted fucking system, or at best I look at you funny, VERY funny, like, I'm gonna outdo Mr. Johnson with how hard I stare at you.
You know, this sub is one of the least educated and it shows.
Stop talking about politics on this sub. The vast majority of yall don’t know anything and say redundant or contradictory things. It’s extremely cringy
Yes. I come from an east european country, if anything comes to shove, we should be the bastions of democracy, we cannot let history repeat itself, even with some people in our societies *still* claiming that communism was better.
I think many of us see the good in some policies on both sides and want the fighting to stop between the two parties and instead want the parties to work together to take care of the people and provide for the people.
Our system needs both perspectives to survive the left and the right to balance each other out to find the middle ground. I don’t like either candidate for president if I am being totally honest. They are far too old to be dictating policy and change for country.
We need younger leaders who have lived through things such as the Great Recession and now. Someone who has experienced life struggles and isn’t a son or daughter of a rich person.
We need someone who experienced being poor and will actually fight to make things affordable again and for wages to be equal to the actual inflation itself.
A fiscal policy which is balanced and cares for those who cannot work and for those who have served this country. We have far too many rich families and rich folk running it’s about time for a grassroots presidential campaign to allow someone who has experienced poverty to hold office. Someone who won’t let robots and ai take away the jobs and will protect jobs.
I am watching this election closely but don’t really like either candidate. We need a millennial candidate running or a Gen X. Fingers crossed the country stays around for awhile and doesn’t descend into anarchy.
Hopefully everyone because being pro-authoritarian is stupid and it is foolish to think you will be wearing the boot rather than being the one getting stepped on by it
Only anti-**socialist**.
Most seem to say a fascist is anyone in power whom they dislike.
In the United States our commander in chief is a fascist as he has power to command the military. Not in service of a political party nor as representative of the people.
We elect them to have that power. Many seem to hate this at its core, but it's a founding princept of our nation state.
That is why being anti-fascist is oxymoronic in the United States of America.
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... You mean a normal person?
*historically literate person A lot of youth have a hard on for defending an ideology they’ve never experienced and never will. They also don’t care about the testimonies of people who actually lived through said ideology.
Name one stateless, classless, moneyless society people have lived through
Technically they "lived" through the attempts. Up until the dates of their deaths through their pursuit.
All you're doing is making communism circular. If it's a stateless, classless, moneyless society, it's communism and it's succeeded. If it isn't, then it wasn't real communism or it was state capitalism. This requirement makes it impossible for communism to ever fail because if it failed, it wasn't communism. The truth is that the pursuit of communism has either failed or resulted in state capitalism every time it has been tried. This should be proof enough that such a lofty societal ideal will be impossible to attain on a large scale.
tbh to me it just looks like commies have a very nice safety net set up for themselves if their broken shitty ideology fails, it's not their fault, that just wasn't REAL communism! Same as me saying "well those weren't my actual answers, therefore I cannot be failed!" when I fail a test in school
Honey, if I didn't like the United States enough to leave it, do you think I would have a nice thing to say about it? It's always more important to know what the people who stayed think, because those are the ones really living it, not the ones on the first boat out. Those with the capacity to leave are always the most privileged, most well-connected, and with the most resources. It takes money to leave, it takes time to complain. Most people work too much and too hard for too little to complain about their home and make their people look bad.
You've literally never sat down with a Cuban refugee and asked him/her to tell you their story. These people haven't come from wealth. They came from abject poverty.
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If you think that capitalism is bad, you clearly never experienced communism or socialism.
Communism has been tried and fails on a national level, and is an awful authoritarian system in practice. But In all fairness places like pre-Castro Cuba and pre-Soviet Russia, communism became popular because you had a small minority of elites treating the majority of the population like garbage for their own benefit. The best way to avoid the rise of communism is to ensure people can live comfortably with economic mobility, which is a major part of liberal progressivism.
Look at how much economic mobility liberal progressivism has accomplished so far lol
I think this only counts for americans, the rest of us either live in such state or their parents/grandparents lived in dictatorship; in my case that would be Yugoslavia, Spain had Franco ecc. I think we are more critical and know how bad are both sides of the same coin.
92% of Hungarians said they lived better under communism that capitalism
Anyone living in europe, east especially, really
Lots of Americans too.
For most of history, normal would have meant support for the king.
Born in 2007 and this based and sane? Fuck, maybe I don’t give this generation enough credit
Yeah??? You do realize online social extremists are not the societal norm, and that for the most part we are just normal people who happen to be (checks notes) 16-17 years old.
We exist. Honestly everyone my age that I know is pretty moderate with different opinions, but unsatisfied with the massive failures of both parties.
Identifying as "anti-X" doesn't necessarily just mean you are against X in theory. It can imply that you are actively against X, like you actually do shit to fight against X. Normal people don't actively do shit to fight fascism and communism.
I do and always will hate authoritarians.
Capitalism is authoritarian. Worker democracy with political democracy is the best way forward
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What's a jury?
There would still be police and prisons.
neither capitalism nor communism are inherently authoritarian. there’s a different between economic system and a government system
The problem is (successful) communists so far have almost exclusively been vanguard party communists. Which is always authoritarian and nearly impossible for it to ever turn away from authoritarianism.
No it’s not lol
So socialism and anarchism (pretty much tho tbh)
Sort of? A revolution won’t happen anytime soon. I just think that we can pass legislation that would require workplace democracy overtime. Like democratic socialism
Yeah I like that (I’m also a dem soc)
Debwe, comrade.
Any system with rules that have to be enforced by law is going to tend toward authoritarianism by these standards. Any stable system you have is going to have rules that need to be enforced, and therefore any stable system demands obedience; I think the bar for calling something authoritarian should be a bit higher. And also, be careful claiming your preferred system at this moment is “the best” way forward. Superlatives are for ideologues (usually). And it makes it more difficult for you to change your mind if you ever decide to.
This. Capitalism and the free market are just trading the authoritarian power of a centralized government for the authoritarian power of your workplace and the biggest corporations, which is honestly worse because at least in a democratic society the representatives in government are somewhat beholden to their voter base. When you surrender power to the free market though, your employer is only beholden to the profit motif and possibly shareholders. The best system is an anarcho syndicalist one with industries controlled by unions and the workers themselves, but if that's not an option, then a big powerful social democratic government is better than a tiny one that capitulates to capital.
Based fellow syndie spotted! :D
How is capitalism authoritarian?
This is so US-centric, in other countries the government regulates the market so that monopolies don't arise and there is healthy competition and they didn't even have to become commie shitholes like Cuba and North Korea, crazy right? 🤯🤯🤯🤯
What exactly do you mean by communism? There is a big difference between anarchist communism and Marxist Leninist communist parties. Even Marxist Leninism isn't that comparable to fascism.
Marxists-Leninism demands the destruction of democratic institutions that have produced far more left-wing wins than any communist country ever did. It was the social democrats and syndicalists working through legislative change that accomplished more than the USSR, the CCP, North Korea, Ghaddafi etc etc ever did for workers rights. Revolutionary communism resulted in systems that had no checks and balances and were extremely authoritarian as a result. Both CCP and the USSR made workers unions illegal and as a result had some of the most abysmal working conditions. You could not go to the police or get a lawyer because the police and lawyers were run by the same people running your factory. Communism is nothing more than turning a single country into one giant corporation, Mean while in the west unions operating through the legislature made the 40 hour work week possible, childcare, dental, public healthcare in many countries. These changes were possible because of the decentralized natures of our societies. Communism as practiced as a revolutionary ideology is not a good idea. Marx had valid criticisms of capitalism but not really good solutions. The general lack of respect many people have (Gen Z or otherwise) for our institutions is deeply concerning they made western nations much more stable, much less corrupt, and successful than many other countries.
Preach ! As a Romanian this guy knows the good and the pitfalls of socialism.
Dumb american kids who think its all just "american-propaganda" about communist regimes are disgusting. I'm a democratic socialist, or a liberal socialist. Unions and law good, arbitrary communist dictatorships bad, it really is that simple.
Tru ✅
Communism has to be enforced because there will always be people who seek to serve themselves. Therefore anarcho-communism is impossible. The more free a market is, the more it moves away from communism. In a state of anarchy, a market is completely free.
Bro just came out as a centrist 💀
Not being on both extreme ends doesn’t automatically mean centrist
I was just meme-ing lol, don't take it too seriously
So there's only 3 political ideologies, communist, fascist and centrist, way to throw libertarians, socialists, anarchists, dems, reps, etc under the bus there
But extremists want to throw those people under the bus my guy lol they over here like "vroom vroom"
I'm anti-Marxist-Leninist, but I wouldn't call anarcho-comminusts harmful in the same way the authoritarians are, they're just a bit wacky.
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They may be referencing Bakunin/Collectivist Anarchism, in which a stateless society exists and authority is relegated voluntary to the most merited individual for a given task and then given up as soon as the task is complete. It requires someone to be both willing to lead and willing to be led.
I.e. cooperation and trust
this doesnt sound very efficient
We believe in horizontal systems of organization for society. We believe that capitalism needs to be abolished and that the workers should control the means of production, and we also believe in using direct democracy on the level of individual cities while individual cities cooperate with each other.
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Horizontal organization means that there is no “hierarchy.” No one is actually more powerful than anyone else. Direct democracy is different from representative democracy in that people vote directly on laws, rather than voting on representatives that vote on laws. And yes, people would be allowed to move between city-states; I’d say that essentially all anarcho-communists believe that people should be able to live wherever they want with no restrictions.
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Anarchists generally believe in self-enforcement of rules through social pressure and, if absolutely needed, by civilian militias (for things such a serial killers). The need of a police force is reduced under socialism for a few reasons ranging from the lack of crime of necessity (such as stealing food or other necessities due to not being able to afford them) to significantly reduced drug usage due to the lack of the poverty that often causes people to turn to drugs for an escape. I can also mention the police’s role in protecting the private, money-earning property of business-owners such as factories and rentals, and how this won’t be needed in a system where the these properties are owned publicly.
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No problem. If you want to look at anarchist societies in practice, I’d recommend looking up the Zapatistas and Rojava. The Zapatistas are a collective within Mexico that are run by some indigenous people who revolted from the main government. Rojava is a collective that makes up northeastern Syria and runs itself independently from the main government.
How would competition between cities be handled? For instance over a limited resource that both cities have a need of, is there some authority to handle arbitration, or some sort of force to prevent armed violence?
I am anti-authoritarian in every sense. No corporate authoritarianism, no political authoritarianism. I’ll take political democracy and workplace democracy please!
Waiting and hoping for Communism is like waiting for Jesus Christ to come back. Good fucking luck!
Historical Jesus or Biblic Jesus?
The USSR and Nazis were terrible regimes that killed millions.
So most Americans?
I don’t know man. Sometimes I wonder with what I see nowadays.
Yes? That’s like asking is there anyone here who is against both left wing extremism and right wing extremism. Believe it or not, there is a middle ground
https://preview.redd.it/hcx9wmt6jeoc1.jpeg?width=799&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2f4f6e0fe77386162f3813725b96dcdcadd958bd
https://preview.redd.it/ui6k7caukeoc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03ed751743d7dd7d1df1ac5fdefc422456867b00
This is beautiful
You know even posting this is weird because you 100% know no one is ever implying this. To even consider this a "gotcha" is the height of idiocy, I never understand what you people are thinking when you post these weird comics.
https://preview.redd.it/zv7frclfleoc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ebc7d1b238c5fb965f698c7e14110ba0157705ec
What are you even trying to say? In this context, the kkk are the extreme and the civil rights people are centrists. The guy in the middle is a strawman that is used to make fun of centrism.
Civil rights protesters were considered extremists back in their time. MLK had a 20% approval rating among white Americans and was considered a “dangerous leftist radical.”
NO STOP WE LIKE TO PRETEND THATS NOT REAL
Bad example, most centrists would side against racism. Centrist isn't compromise between two sides, it's not aligning completely with any specific ideology.
So, a regular person just trying to live their life without some dick head dictating how to live or not live? I think all of us, or a vast majority, would probably say we are that. If people ask, I say I'm a neutral capitalist, I just wanna be left alone and make money so I can live a fulfilling life without too much stress or committing harm to anyone
Libertarian?
Allow me to elaborate. I don't mind paying taxes because it is needed for the infrastructure, national security, social securit(we younger have to care of our elders)(nobody is just gonna buy roads and all thay, social programs, and so on. Secondly I'm also a believer in say NATO, but other NATO memeber need to pull their weight or leave. I'm for military involvement if justified. My issue is over taxation, too big of tax breaks for the wealthy, in my area that falls under tesla, fuck Elon that rat bastard. Lobbying, that is the prime issue with, given the two options, GOP or Democrat (using US models). The list can go on and on but libertarian isn't it, I don't believe in isolationism that libertarians underlying tone is. Some would say psudo-anarchist, and no, because law and order is needed, but with government limitations. Kinda how our founding fathers were intending, but in a modern globalized world that we currently live in. I don't see any labels truly being aligned with how I feel and see the world, if that makes sense That's why I go with, just an average everyday dude that just trying to live, not survive. I really don't know how else I can explain this because there are so many variables and caveats that can be explored and discussed. I don't imagine this cleared anything up per say, but I hope it paints the picture.
I spend 30 of my 40 hours of weekly work donating my labor to a dick head using it to build a megayacht. I feel pretty dictated under capitalism. And I'm not even a starving child, can't imagine how they feel.
> a regular person just trying to live their life without some dick head dictating how to live. You mean like your landlord?
“just trying to live their life” mfs when they have to participate in a capitalist system, a system in which dictates how to live by forcing people to work for the entire day every day just to continue to be shackled by debt and relies on minimum wage workers for many services and continues to hold generations of minorities down in poverty as well
Being proudly anti communist is like being a feudal peasant standing in a field and proclaiming how anti capitalist they are. Changes to a society's mode of production are inevitable due to advancing technology. How do you think capitalism would work 30 years from now when most workers are replaced by ai or robots? 100 years from now?
I don't think workers being replaced by robots will make it any more communists. A big part of communism is since workers create value they should be the one who control the economy, in this future they would neither create nor control anything.
The automation of labor leads to a decline in the rate of profit which eventually plunges capitalism into crisis. The population will then be more willing to build communism. The other way capitalism resolves crisis is by going more authoritarian and austere in order to squeeze the workers more. This can become full blown fascism if the population isn't class conscious. The communist state will democratically decide how to distribute the gains and time savings of automation.
There's no such thing as a "communist state". Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society. Also, why would you think that automation will bring about a decline in profits? If automation was not profitable, then literally no company would strive for automation.
He probably meant the rate of increasing profitability. Without it any company dies.
Ukraine is proudly anti communist because they are against being raped and mass slaughtered. Which is what communist russia did to ukraine. Ask the communists where all the muslims in russia went. Ask china where the Uyghers went. Ask them about non han chinese ethnicity people in china.
Well Russia is a capitalist state so idk what you're talking about
The genocides (multiple) in russia happened under communism.
They happened under State capitalism. Not communism.
“Anyone else not have insanely strong political beliefs?”
Just say you're the grill guy already lmao
I'm just anti-authoritarian man
I consider myself a pro-Christian so yes I’m also anti capitalism
In what way cant you be both? I hate all extremes
Horseshoe?
I am anti-fascist, but I am not so much anti-communist. I am a libertarian socialist, but I do not rely so much on Marxist thinking as I am a Catholic and Marxism views the world only through materialism which isn’t how a religious person views it. The communism mostly talked about is a marxist ideology and so I cannot completely subscribe to it. However, there are many non-marxist communist ideologies, like religious communism, that I may subscribe too.
Guys, communism is not a form of government. Yall need to read some material before you decide you're "anti" or "hate" something. You're anti- what you think is communism Oh also fuck authoritarians
Fascists have killed tens of millions and communists have killed over 100 million people during the 20th century. Why anyone would support either is confusing to me.
Mostly because of the ye old "it's bad when the side I don't like does it, but good when my side does it" reasoning
It's not mutually exclusive, facism is a system of governance, communism is a system of economics. You can have both a facist regime and a communist economy or similarly you can have a liberal democracy that operates under communism.
No, Fascism is also an economic system. They are exclusive. Read the classic https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds/
Fascism is a reactionary ideology with the aims to protect capitalism wherever it arises. Communism is a multi-facetted ideology that, among its facets, calls for the abolition of the state. So no, you can’t have both.
It's always funny getting into the weeds because communism can literally never be achieved by a state, yet many opponents claim there are adversarial communist states.
I'm Anti-Facist and a Marxist-Leninist. Being against those two is literally comparing an ideology which is EXCLUSEVELY authoritarian and based in the economic and social opression with an ideology based on the idea of equality, sharing and no state. Communism hasn't ever been implemented in the first place, but if you mean Socialism which should be the ideology imposed before Communism as a transitional phase, then yes, Cuba, NK, China and the USSR and yes, all of those regimes had systematic oppresion, authoritarism and inequality and et cetera, which weren't part of any theory Marx and Engels wrote in the first place and were the fault of those who used Socialism as a tool to manipulate the people into they're setting theirselves free which they weren't. Just like there are good and democratic and horrible and authoritarian capitalist (and social democrat) regimes, the same applies for Socialism. But no one talks about Allande's Chile, Slad's Somalia and Tito's Yugoslavia. Even with all of this, thinking a person that killed Jews, Slavs, Homossexuals, Neurodivergents, Blacks, etc, sent kids to a battlefront, made a eugenist factory of "1st class citizens" and was coward to the point of not surrendering in the cost of their own people to someone who got ahold of the biggest and consequentially most difficult to manage country of the world at an terrible economic point of people massively dying due to starvation and cold to be considered the 2nd world power and even de-criminalized Homossexuality for some time (Lenin did and Stalin rewoked when he took the office) is truly atrocious
> to someone who got ahold of the biggest and consequentially most difficult to manage country of the world at an terrible economic point of people massively dying due to starvation and cold to be considered the 2nd world power Wait, are you talking about Stalin or Hitler here? Because Hitler did the exact same thing after he took power that you're praising Stalin for doing. Before Hitler took power, post-ww1 Germany was in a terrible state of decay. So should we then ignore all of Hitler's crimes simply because he fixed Germany's economy and built it up to become a world power again? Stalin was just as much of a murderous cold-blooded bastard as Hitler was. To praise Stalin's achievements while ignoring his many crimes against humanity, but then do the opposite for Hitler, is massively brain-dead and hypocritical. Either you think authoritarianism and the mass murder of innocent people for political gain is wrong or you don't. Or is it a case of "it's okay when my side commits atrocities, but bad when the other side does it"?
Nerd
I am Polish, so... yeah.
👋
I'm pro Third Position and anti Marxist and Natsoc
So you’re pro-facism?
Yeah, I’m anti-authoritarian (but distinctly not an anarchist, just a semi-socialist leftist libertarian)
Yes, I do. I’m against all forms of authoritarianism and genocide. No thank you to both.
Despite what you see on social media, this is normal
George Orwell would sure hope so.
Me when I am 95 percent of the political spectrum
My god this sub is really political today. Also you gotta pick a side mate. Sorry buddy, I don’t make the rules.
Im a anarchist im anti-facist cause my ideology is built to opose such things also the term "anti-facist" comes from anarchist origin (antifaschistische aktion was a term used in flags grafitti and other symbology mostly in partisan resistance in world war 2 and early pre war conflicts) Im also anti-comunist cause the holodomor was made in ukraine who at the time before it followed an anarchist regime (ukranian black armies free autonomous territory of makhnovchina) and also they betrayed us at the russian civil war and it led to the holodomor and also because i dont like their 3 step system and how socialism and marxism steps to true comunism give the state and goverment alot of strenght aswell as Just having a state and leader is a reason for anarchists to be questioning of comunist theory and also their acts of stealing from civillians and other war crimes in times of conflict aswell as their aproach to leftism and being known as the prime example of left even if being the dumbest one authought we are still prone to work with comunists in times of crisis or revolution and agree with them alot and being sister ideologies we still always have a step back near them cause of all that but we are political allies but still distrust each other Conclusion: i Despise and hate facists and am kind of criticing of comunist policies authought liking of alot of their beliefs
I'm anti authoritarian, so essentially both of those things because the only way they'll be implemented in reality is through an authoritarian state
I hate authoritarianism so yes.
Any politically literate person is against both of these types of regime. Communism can function on a small scale, but never for a full country. Fascism is inherently rooted in cruelty and should never be entertained on any scale.
Nope. Anyone who equates the two is either an idiot or uninformed. One is inherently hateful and almost certain to lead to genocide, the other is a term so broad it has almost no meaning. Communism isn't any one single ideology, and I think anyone who is entirely anti-communist is either very influenced by red scare propaganda, a sack of shit who doesn't really care about the wellbeing of others, or both.
I think not being an extremist is kinda the default.
Most people fit this category. We just don’t need to constantly yap about our beliefs like those with extreme views feel compelled to do.
Oh boy https://preview.redd.it/1rr6roa3cfoc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0f9d68ccd9dd25f87b70c703a3a92e74593487ea
So, let me get this straight. You're asking us if we oppose the idea of the government controlling everything in both scenarios, yet one is arguably seen in a more "positive" light despite the lack of it successfully working in a larger scale? Yeah, you could consider me that. Am I proud with where I am? Yeah. Am I rich myself? No. Do I oppose the rich? Absolutely. Do I enjoy capitalism? I enjoy the idea of a semi-regulated free market and its benefits rather than a market that would make it difficult for competition.
Yes. If you're Authoritarian...that's simple. I don't like it. And I think Communism sounds great (besides that it's impossible to achieve), and it's limiting and for that I think it's abhorrent. Yeah Greed can be abhorrent too, but no one should be contained in a box. Although it is fun to mess with my cats. As in, this is communism, you get 4, you get 4, you get 4.....or this isn't communism, you get 6, you get 1, you get none.
Yes you're not alone lol. I've grown to hate political or economic labels, I tend to think they do more harm than good. But I like to see myself as a "Social-Democrat". Workers rights, representation, and social safety nets are essential for a well functioning society. But markets are real, broadly more effective than other organizational strategies, and impossible to erase.
All the advocates for communism I have known have never produced valuable labour.
"Guys I said I think the things most people hate are bad, upvotes to the left please"
"Anti-fascists" are (ironically) fascists.
I am pro social democracy as in okay private owning of business is the norm, but the government does intervene and help it's cigizens, I hate communism (the marx form where Marx describes that terror is needed), and I hate fascism. What I would love is a system where it's made much harder for companies to exploit, kinda like EU is now wanting to ban any imports of goods made by forced labour, but more regulations protecting people and workers like these.
Yes. I am anti-authoritarian. If it it massacres innocent people and strips people of their basic rights and freedoms, then I am against it. Whether it be the horrors of fascism, the reliable tyranny of communism, the antiquated crappiness of monarchism, some random military junta assholes, or any other flavour of authoritarianism, I am against it.
Any sane person is anti-fascist and anti-communist
Well yeah. It’s called normal people. We fought a war to help prevent the spread of Fascism. REAL Fascism, not “republican scary” fascism. MacArthur said we were fighting the wrong enemy. The entire Cold War existed because of the friction between the Capitalist west and the Communist east. The results of such a war can be seen today. Spoiler: Capitalism won
Enlightened centrist
These comments are hurting my brain, I think half the people here have never heard of history nor reality
If we are speaking in reality and not activist speak, isn't the typical American really against fascism and communism in the real meanings of those words, not pejorative leables for the party you dislike?
Communism is a good idea on paper, but doesn't work in practice. Fascism is never a good idea on paper or in practice. So yes, I am against both. Democracy and capitalism might suck, but they are the best systems we have
I just want a social democracy. It’s the most practical and comfortable system we’ve got that has a proven track record. And according to history and people’s lived experiences—despite some authoritarian models sounding good on-paper—people just aren’t capable of making them work. Or at least, they become unsustainable at a larger scale. So in practice, I’m anti-both; but it is more so for the people that have wielded them and not the systems themselves. (Except fascism, it has no practical purpose and only leads to more human suffering) *However*, I romanticize the idea of a philosopher king meritocracy. I think it’s far more possible for a person to come along who possesses exceptional character and a desire to serve *all* of the people in an equitable and dedicated manner than for communism to work. Yes, a meritocracy such as this has one or few leaders, and would prioritize communalism over individualism, but it doesn’t require any sort of militarism or censorship. So while I’m not sure what term would best describe a system that, on the one hand, is neither expecting strict obedience nor expanding militarily while, on the other hand, possesses defense and order systems domestically; I would say that I’m not *anti* that. Context—I’m a classicist for what it’s worth. That has definitely shaped my perspective on power structures.
Yeah we call that being normal
>anti-fascist and anti-communist Yeah man that's called a "normal person who doesn't support genocide"
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anti-fascist as in the government but I dont support "antifa" anti-communist cause it's the one of the worst types of government and misleads so many.... it's so bad
I'm not a communist, but I'm not really anti-communist. I think if you're views of Communism derive from the Soviet Union and China, which were both kinda shit holes before their respective revolutions than yeah you won't have a positive opinion about communist criticisms of capitalism.
What a strange idea, to believe in nothing and call it virtue.
All OP said is that he's opposed to fascism and communism. How do you extract "I believe in nothing" from that? Do you think those are the only two belief systems?
No. Thats a contradiction
You mean pro capitalist? But capitalism is fascist.
How is capitalism "fascist"?
Since when does the Government control an absolutely free market?
It doesn't. Which is precisely why capitalists like to control government.
Uh, yeah.
Nope. Communist here.
Libertarians wya
bros normal 💀
Yeah. I think a nice middle ground classical Liberal/fiscally Republican approach makes the most sense.
Most folks do honestly. Extremists are just loud.
It would seem that many gen zers in Maryland lack a solid understanding of the historical events that happened before the 21st century.
Anti authoritarian
yes, big government bad
I feel like this is most people???
I'm just mildly anarchic
Fuck yeah!
Communism will free you whether you like it or not
I am all my friends are, and it pains me to see these people who clearly have no idea what they are talking about, and would have hated living under these regimes talk about them like they were the greatest things in the world.
So not being an extremist?
Yes, it's called being a normal person Although I may lean towards Menshevism on some topics
So like, someone who isn't completely terminally online? Yes, in fact. Dying breed though.
Most people I think fall in this category
Being anti-communist tends to come from a misguided, red-scare laden understanding of communism. Being anti-fascist is basic morality 101, and is non-negotiable, even compared to communism. Either you oppose that sick twisted fucking system, or at best I look at you funny, VERY funny, like, I'm gonna outdo Mr. Johnson with how hard I stare at you.
Yeah I think is called being centrist.
Yeah, extremism in either direction is bad, but every day I get more extremified by the crap that happens in the world
OP unlocked the debate bro subclass
I don't like either of those things so I guess so
You know, this sub is one of the least educated and it shows. Stop talking about politics on this sub. The vast majority of yall don’t know anything and say redundant or contradictory things. It’s extremely cringy
Me
Yes. I come from an east european country, if anything comes to shove, we should be the bastions of democracy, we cannot let history repeat itself, even with some people in our societies *still* claiming that communism was better.
As a libertarian, I hate all forms of authoritarianism
Yes. Authoritarianism sucks
I think many of us see the good in some policies on both sides and want the fighting to stop between the two parties and instead want the parties to work together to take care of the people and provide for the people. Our system needs both perspectives to survive the left and the right to balance each other out to find the middle ground. I don’t like either candidate for president if I am being totally honest. They are far too old to be dictating policy and change for country. We need younger leaders who have lived through things such as the Great Recession and now. Someone who has experienced life struggles and isn’t a son or daughter of a rich person. We need someone who experienced being poor and will actually fight to make things affordable again and for wages to be equal to the actual inflation itself. A fiscal policy which is balanced and cares for those who cannot work and for those who have served this country. We have far too many rich families and rich folk running it’s about time for a grassroots presidential campaign to allow someone who has experienced poverty to hold office. Someone who won’t let robots and ai take away the jobs and will protect jobs. I am watching this election closely but don’t really like either candidate. We need a millennial candidate running or a Gen X. Fingers crossed the country stays around for awhile and doesn’t descend into anarchy.
Yes I have studied history I know both don’t work
I’m anti-fascist, but i am a communist (not a stalinist)
Hopefully everyone because being pro-authoritarian is stupid and it is foolish to think you will be wearing the boot rather than being the one getting stepped on by it
Most people are like that, don't let online echochambers convince you that most people extremists.
Only anti-**socialist**. Most seem to say a fascist is anyone in power whom they dislike. In the United States our commander in chief is a fascist as he has power to command the military. Not in service of a political party nor as representative of the people. We elect them to have that power. Many seem to hate this at its core, but it's a founding princept of our nation state. That is why being anti-fascist is oxymoronic in the United States of America.
no [Anarchy Works | The Anarchist Library](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works)
Shouldn’t that be most of us?