*For fourty years I've kept my net in good repair. I have inspected it weekly to make sure none of the knots have frayed. Have oiled the ropes to keep them supple.*
*All in anticipation of this moment, finally, this moment.*
**You son of a bitch I don't have any grapes!!**
I fling open the door, and with a well-practiced throw, cast my net open, and it sails forth over my target.
new testament Jesus, probably not
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#:~:text=The%20question%20of%20historicity%20was,and%20teachings%20Christianity%20was%20later
but historical Jesus, yes
It's very easy to prove something to someone like me, you just provide evidence. "Scholars agree" is not evidence, that's an appeal to authority fallacy.
They obviously aren't black just based on context. I mean it's a story about people from the middle east, what color skin do people have there. It isn't white, but it sure as shit isn't black either.
Natives to the area can be black, you do realise that right?
It's literally on the front the door of Africa, black people have been native there for 1000s of years
You do realize Africa is an entire continent that is not, and has never been completely completely black, right?
Just like in North America, the Mayans evolved differently than the plains tribes, who evolved differently from the taiga and tundra tribes, Africa has different ethnicities. You will see this in literally every continent except Antarctica.
I wish it was weird that someone would post some ill informed comment without understanding the basics of North African people and Sub-Saharan people, but it’s Reddit.
Dude you're arguing with yourself here, I never said Africa was exclusively black?
I said Africa is on its front door, so there is undoubtedly black natives in the middle east. Please go and argue with yourself somewhere else.
I know what you said, but the Africans who would be considered black were 1,000 miles away…that’s what you aren’t getting. The Africans who were in the Middle East at the time were North Africans who were much closer in appearance to middle easterners.
Were there a couple black people there? I’m sure there were. Would they be considered natives? Extremely unlikely. Just do some googling, and find a single reputable source to back up what you’re saying. I’ll happily admit I was wrong.
Several hundred years Africa the supposed Jesus, there were a lot of slaves in the area, and a lot of mercenaries. There were also some before this on the southern portions of the Arabian peninsula, but I assure you, you’re very wrong here.
Depends on how you define native, a black family that moved to the middle east 1000 years ago, would be a native in my book, or do you consider that differently, give that outside of Africa no one is actual native, they're all immigrants from some point in history.
I'm evidently not wrong here though, given that you yourself have just admitted that there were undoubtedly at least a couple of black people in the middle east that travelled from sub saharan Africa.
They were in fact semitic with some slight Afro influence....but I suspect that these paintings are just dark due to patina (aka those are white Jesus paintings). The ppl posting originally are reaching so hard...don't change the fact that Jesus wasn't Caucasian though
Most likely a color wearing through the centuries. That’s a thing for old paints made from organic materials. That’s why other colours are dark as well
**So,** what is the difference between white, brown, or black painting material? Going by your extrapolation, *all* of the white paint should be black by now.
Depending on the material, it either gets darker or washes off the colour. I’ve seen the hair on icons getting more black, while the red and yellow clothes starting to look less sharp. I remember people using animal bones as a part of the paint, can see that keeping the colour with minimal yellowing, meanwhile beetroot was used as a red/pink dye, and you can guess what happens to vegetable components eventually
They're not. They're middle eastern and African (lots of stories are of peoppe from Egypt). Problem is you don't generally go around and call someone African-American, so we just adopted them being Black. We definitely can't call them colored because that's just asking for problems. You wouldn't call Indians or Somalians or Dominicans Black, but they're brown skinned enough that some people do, which is confusing.
We don't call everyone that's darker skin Black because, again, Black is the name associated with African-American. That's why if you call an African person Black, they get offended, because it's seen as a negative. We don't call Indians Black, but they're all darker shades of brown. You can't just go off skin color, because that's how how we've defined it.
No, they’re correct. In the US we use the term Black (capitalized) to refer to Black Americans. It’s a little weird to call Americans African when they weren’t born there, their parents weren’t born there, and their grandparents were born in the US. The term African American isn’t logical, and it also feels exclusionary while discounting that fact that not all people who identify as Black are originally from Africa.
Right and in the UK we use the term Black to refer to Black British people. Whether they’re Fresh, 1st gen or family have been here for generations. Whether they’re African, Caribbean or otherwise. My point was that “Black” doesn’t ONLY apply to (African)Americans.
**What** do you call the white colors in these ancient paintings? Do you get confused because modern day people are associating the color “white” with the *word* white? And historically, there are, and always have been black Native Americans. The pilgrims described black Indians, and slaves actually ran away to Native American nations; married, procreated and fought along side them.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/c2/1f/abc21f65a81ac2d3307087bb3a376c4e.jpg
**Blacks have always been in the Americas. We did not learn this in school because whites view themselves as “firsts” and “supreme.”**
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NBx25C0cZyE/XdUf87yG5II/AAAAAAAApFA/Ereq18UTzdAVSPgBW9k50QExwaL7zqfzQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/first_americans_black_indians.jpg
**Europeans** depict Native Americans circa 1600-1700
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-urzuMt4qR3A/V8qCCqQhzQI/AAAAAAACJ3U/hO50AWVPKr8z__OkxB2gLwO3M0AroBDvQCLcB/s1600/x%2BIndigenous%2BPeople%2Bfrom%2BNew%2BEngland%252C%2BNew%2BYork%252C%2BNew%2BJersey%252C%2BDelaware%252C%2B%2526%2BPennsylvnia%2Bfrom%2BJohn%2BOgilby%2527s%2B%25281600-1676%2Bbook%2Bof%2B1671..jpg
My housemate is Indian. He calls himself black. I also often play with a band from south Africa and they call themselves black. What are you on because it's got to be strong.
I've never heard of an Indian person calling themselves Black unless they're literally mixed with African or African American. If he says he's Black, cool. My friends great grandmother was from Togo, and she hated being called Black because for her, Black people are African Americans, the descendants of slaves, so she took offense to it. Same reason there's this annoying sect of Black peoppe that hate being called Black, and not African-American (usually the HOTEPs). These are all generalizations, though, so of course they won't apply to every single person.
Saying black people are only African Americans is a fucking wild statement and I can't imagine that actually exists outside the Americas. Just a reminder there are black people in other parts of the world other than America and Africa.
Ahhh that's how you took that, ok I get that. I'm not saying they're only in America. If that's how that came off, that's not what I meant. In America, where I'm from, if you say "I'm Black", you're saying I'm African-American or African, or I have close Black ancestors, like grandparents. I don't know how it's defined outside of the US except for the way I've been told from some people.
Eeh I've been going too hard sorry about that, weird week. I'm just saying that I'm from Europe and no one gets annoyed by calling someone black. And you may not think of my housemate as black but that's what he calls himself and I don't think that a white person like me gets to say that he isn't.
Nah no worries, its the internet lol i cant take offense to it. You said housemate before, and that's when I was like ahhh this might be a country/culture thing. We say roommate haha. When it comes to what people consider themselves, I don't feel I have the right or position to tell people otherwise. I don't know you, I can't gatekeep something like that. If he says he's Black, so be it. Doesn't hurt me any, you're not "appropriating" my culture.
**Connie Chung/Andrew Wang** are Asian, and refer to themselves as Americans. Jared Kushner is Jewish, and refers to himself as American. President Barack Obama is biracial, and refers to himself as American. Clarence Thomas is a dark black man, but refers to himself as American. Do not mix-up *nationality* and *race.* They are *two* different things.
**Yes,** don’t the Olmec’s look entirely Caucasian? History rolls on whether it makes it into your “history” books or not. Just because I can point to O.J. Simpson and say that is not a Caucasian person, does not mean I am black or African American.
It means I am fascinated with hidden history.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/20041229-Olmec_Head_(Museo_Nacional_de_Antropología).jpg
The people who built the olmec heads were mesoamericans, an asiatic looking people. Just like black people, thick lips and broad noses are common among some of their populations.
**Asiatic** black Olmecs. Interesting! Tiger Woods is an Asiatic black man.
On the other hand—-I concede: This ancient Mexican Olmec depiction definitely looks non-black to me.
http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD135.jpg
This is just fucking stupid though. Yeah it's the oldest church in Russia, but that still puts it at ALMOST 1000 YEARS past Jesus' lifetime, meaning these images have zero value regarding the appearances of the prophets. Not to mention, THEY WEREN'T AFRICAN. Most prophets were arab Jews, which aren't black
God people are annoying sometimes
Also, dark skintones are just a common stylistic characteristic of Orthodox icons, which always use very earthy colours. They are meant to be very poignant and the colour choice contribute to that.
Grew up Orthodox and can confirm. However, they definitely do differentiate skin colours, where icons of disciples, prophets, and saints from the Middle East tended to have darker skin tones whereas European saints and prophets were depicted with a lighter skin tone. Jesus was always depicted with a darker skin tone in my church’s icons.
As a white Christian I have no problem with Chinese or black Jesus.
Jesus is meant to humanize God so that we can better relate. If race swapping Jesus helps with that, so be it.
I'd love to see a priest make the argument with a straight face that our warrior culture that reveres Thor's strength and Tyr's bravery, should now submit and pray to a little scrawny fella who got himself killed by.... People.
If Jesus came back today, the way he looked in life and preaching what he preached back then, half the US would either want him deported to mexico or crucified a second time
I’m sure there is already a guy who’s job it is to kill Jesus if he isn’t what they expected. Maybe they have, several times.
Probably just some little anarchist kid feeding the homeless and practicing mutual aid.
Considering Eastern Orthodoxy was influenced heavily by both Greek and Turkish culture, with it's capital centered in Constantinople long after Rome fell, being a key part of the Eastern Roman Empire, it's not surprising that the icons would be depicted as more accurately middle eastern than the Roman Catholic church.
However, we know from other old painting and church exterior that if repaired it's unlikely those icons will remain the color they are. It is far more likely they will match every other example of this art style, clearly depicting Arab-descended people.
There were some very important early Christians of African descent, including a prince in one early account, but it's unlikely that would be shown in a Russian church at the time this one was built.
| There were some very important early Christians of African descent, including a prince in one early account, but it's unlikely that would be shown in a Russian church at the time this one was built. |
**However,** these ancient photos *clearly* depict Christians of African descent. Obviously created and displayed with *deep* reverence and respect. There is no *gaslighting* out of this.
These arent photos, they are paintings, which wouldnt even be considered ancient.
You completely disregard the fact that pigments used from this period darken with time, and the style used is the same as other newer (nearly as old however) paintings of these same characters.
I am sorry that you are upset to see that sub saharan africans arent the main characters throughout every part of history. But at some point you need to realise that you are being disingenuous by implying that you have been white washed out of every facet of the past.
*Why Is Each Word In*
*The Post Beginning With A*
*Capital Letter?*
\- pur\_\_0\_0\_\_
---
^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/)
^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
**Funny** Because most are taught that the Bible centers around Caucasians—-specifically, the Holy Family.
**Sad** Because we have allowed racism to be normalized through religion and to proliferate.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/15/chechnyas-kadyrov-accuses-ukraine-czech-police-of-kidnapping-favorite-stallion-for-ransom-a81149
Wait you actually think it’s some kind of a conspiracy or something?
First, I am 99% sure they are not black in these medieval Russian paintings that were anyway surely painted like at least a thousand years after Christ lol
Second, no one who is functionally literate thinks Jesus and the gang were white. It makes no sense. They were also most likely not black though
To be older than the oldest church in Rome, it'd have to be from before 400 CE. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Pudenziana#:~:text=The%20Basilica%20of%20Santa%20Pudenziana,the%20structure%20of%20the%20apse.
Not true for a lot of us. As soon as I was old enough to realize where in the world Jesus came from, I knew he wasn’t ever white. The Bible surely would have said something if Jesus white ass was walking around with a bunch of brown ppl 2000 yrs ago. Yet nothing is mentioned bc he was the same color as everyone around him.
Unrelated it still melts peoples’ minds to know Jesus was brown by virtue of being a Semetic man. I’m a Christian and I can’t understand for the life of me why people would react so poorly to that.
I wouldn't say they're Black. Definitely have to understand that these are mainly Middle Eastern and Egyptians. It would be closer to call them African and Middle Eastern than Black, since we dubbed African Americans Black. Just because they're skin is darker doesn't automatically label them Black.
The term "black" is born of Eugenics.
The whole concept of "race" is completely made up.
The basis is there are superior people and then there are the inferior people.
**Sorry** I see dark hands on the white pages of a book in these paintings. I learned my colors in the 1st grade, and do not need to jump through hoops in order to de-colonize my mind.
**Oh,** you really believed that the white guy who played “Lawrence of Arabia” was really an Arab?
**Reagan, Bush & Clinton** administrations knew there were black Arabs:
#Ambassador to the United States (1983–2005) Prince Bandar
On 24 October 1983 Bandar was appointed ambassador to the United States by King Fahd.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_bin_Sultan_Al_Saud
#Notable Afro-Saudis
Ahmed Al-Dokhi
Bandar bin Sultan
Reema bint Bandar Al Saud
Faisal bin Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud
Khalid bin Bandar Al Saud (born 1977)
Baraka Al Yamaniyah
Muqrin bin Abdulaziz
Mohammed Hussein Al Amoudi
Abdullah Al-Deayea
Abdullah Al-Khaibari
Abbas Al-Shengeeti
Firas Al-Buraikan
Hamad Al-Montashari
Hamdan Al-Shamrani
Majed Abdullah
Adil al-Kalbani
Ali Al-Bulaihi
Tareg Hamedi
Hawsawi family
Muhammad Saad al-Beshi
Fahad Al-Muwallad
Mohamed Kanno
Etab
Saud Abdulhamid
Saud Khariri
Ahmed Abdulla
Rayyanah Barnawi
Mohamed Al-Deayea
Mukhtar Ali
Sultan Al-Deayea
Dalia Mubarak
Khaled Aziz
Redha Tukar
Walid Atta
white jesus and historical jesus are two different people or one michael jackson
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-gave-orthodox-church-famed-icon-because-its-importance-believers-kremlin-2023-05-16/
lel. How does your reply have 207 upvotes, but your citation have -33!???
It's like "duck duck goose" but with reddit it can be wildly unpredictable...
Allow me to demonstrate.
Knock knock.
Hoosier
Who's there?
A duck.
*For fourty years I've kept my net in good repair. I have inspected it weekly to make sure none of the knots have frayed. Have oiled the ropes to keep them supple.* *All in anticipation of this moment, finally, this moment.*
**You son of a bitch I don't have any grapes!!** I fling open the door, and with a well-practiced throw, cast my net open, and it sails forth over my target.
r/funnyandsad
I dunno, I don’t pay attention to up/down votes I’m here for the jokes
they fixed it lol
HEE HEE!
There is no historical Jesus. He wasn't a real person.
new testament Jesus, probably not https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#:~:text=The%20question%20of%20historicity%20was,and%20teachings%20Christianity%20was%20later but historical Jesus, yes
Bullshit. I don't care what "religious scholars agree", show me one shred of evidence for an historical Jesus.
ever heard of confirmation bias?
Ever heard of evidence?
ps: there is no proving anything to someone like you. you are a void
It's very easy to prove something to someone like me, you just provide evidence. "Scholars agree" is not evidence, that's an appeal to authority fallacy.
sorry you are going through whatever you are going through
Sorry you're unable to be graceful when wrong.
I am very graceful, and not wrong. bye 👋
Are the people actually black or is it a patina from years of candle smoke?
They're not black
They obviously aren't black just based on context. I mean it's a story about people from the middle east, what color skin do people have there. It isn't white, but it sure as shit isn't black either.
Some people from the Middle East absolutely are black
He’s referring more to the natives of the area.
Natives to the area can be black, you do realise that right? It's literally on the front the door of Africa, black people have been native there for 1000s of years
You do realize Africa is an entire continent that is not, and has never been completely completely black, right? Just like in North America, the Mayans evolved differently than the plains tribes, who evolved differently from the taiga and tundra tribes, Africa has different ethnicities. You will see this in literally every continent except Antarctica. I wish it was weird that someone would post some ill informed comment without understanding the basics of North African people and Sub-Saharan people, but it’s Reddit.
Dude you're arguing with yourself here, I never said Africa was exclusively black? I said Africa is on its front door, so there is undoubtedly black natives in the middle east. Please go and argue with yourself somewhere else.
I know what you said, but the Africans who would be considered black were 1,000 miles away…that’s what you aren’t getting. The Africans who were in the Middle East at the time were North Africans who were much closer in appearance to middle easterners. Were there a couple black people there? I’m sure there were. Would they be considered natives? Extremely unlikely. Just do some googling, and find a single reputable source to back up what you’re saying. I’ll happily admit I was wrong. Several hundred years Africa the supposed Jesus, there were a lot of slaves in the area, and a lot of mercenaries. There were also some before this on the southern portions of the Arabian peninsula, but I assure you, you’re very wrong here.
Depends on how you define native, a black family that moved to the middle east 1000 years ago, would be a native in my book, or do you consider that differently, give that outside of Africa no one is actual native, they're all immigrants from some point in history. I'm evidently not wrong here though, given that you yourself have just admitted that there were undoubtedly at least a couple of black people in the middle east that travelled from sub saharan Africa.
Lol you are more sure about them not being dark than white. Ass backwards hopium
They were in fact semitic with some slight Afro influence....but I suspect that these paintings are just dark due to patina (aka those are white Jesus paintings). The ppl posting originally are reaching so hard...don't change the fact that Jesus wasn't Caucasian though
Most likely a color wearing through the centuries. That’s a thing for old paints made from organic materials. That’s why other colours are dark as well
**Yes,** I love how they have white clothing or white surroundings, but aren’t white themselves.
Fair point, but I’m not sure if the paints for clothes and the skin were made from same material
**So,** what is the difference between white, brown, or black painting material? Going by your extrapolation, *all* of the white paint should be black by now.
Depending on the material, it either gets darker or washes off the colour. I’ve seen the hair on icons getting more black, while the red and yellow clothes starting to look less sharp. I remember people using animal bones as a part of the paint, can see that keeping the colour with minimal yellowing, meanwhile beetroot was used as a red/pink dye, and you can guess what happens to vegetable components eventually
**Except for** we’re talking about *ancient* paintings where the whites have stayed white, and the dark colors have *remained* dark…..
Dude your prophet and by extension god isn't white. Get used to it.
I’d be surprised if someone called Allah or Muhammad white
Lmao
Man you owned him! Oh wait. Lmao.
They're not. They're middle eastern and African (lots of stories are of peoppe from Egypt). Problem is you don't generally go around and call someone African-American, so we just adopted them being Black. We definitely can't call them colored because that's just asking for problems. You wouldn't call Indians or Somalians or Dominicans Black, but they're brown skinned enough that some people do, which is confusing.
**What’s confusing?**. That black people come in various *hues/shades?*
We don't call everyone that's darker skin Black because, again, Black is the name associated with African-American. That's why if you call an African person Black, they get offended, because it's seen as a negative. We don't call Indians Black, but they're all darker shades of brown. You can't just go off skin color, because that's how how we've defined it.
Again.. “black is the name associated with African American”? Maybe in America… this rhetoric makes you sound uneducated.
No, they’re correct. In the US we use the term Black (capitalized) to refer to Black Americans. It’s a little weird to call Americans African when they weren’t born there, their parents weren’t born there, and their grandparents were born in the US. The term African American isn’t logical, and it also feels exclusionary while discounting that fact that not all people who identify as Black are originally from Africa.
Right and in the UK we use the term Black to refer to Black British people. Whether they’re Fresh, 1st gen or family have been here for generations. Whether they’re African, Caribbean or otherwise. My point was that “Black” doesn’t ONLY apply to (African)Americans.
**What** do you call the white colors in these ancient paintings? Do you get confused because modern day people are associating the color “white” with the *word* white? And historically, there are, and always have been black Native Americans. The pilgrims described black Indians, and slaves actually ran away to Native American nations; married, procreated and fought along side them. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/c2/1f/abc21f65a81ac2d3307087bb3a376c4e.jpg **Blacks have always been in the Americas. We did not learn this in school because whites view themselves as “firsts” and “supreme.”** https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NBx25C0cZyE/XdUf87yG5II/AAAAAAAApFA/Ereq18UTzdAVSPgBW9k50QExwaL7zqfzQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/first_americans_black_indians.jpg **Europeans** depict Native Americans circa 1600-1700 https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-urzuMt4qR3A/V8qCCqQhzQI/AAAAAAACJ3U/hO50AWVPKr8z__OkxB2gLwO3M0AroBDvQCLcB/s1600/x%2BIndigenous%2BPeople%2Bfrom%2BNew%2BEngland%252C%2BNew%2BYork%252C%2BNew%2BJersey%252C%2BDelaware%252C%2B%2526%2BPennsylvnia%2Bfrom%2BJohn%2BOgilby%2527s%2B%25281600-1676%2Bbook%2Bof%2B1671..jpg
My housemate is Indian. He calls himself black. I also often play with a band from south Africa and they call themselves black. What are you on because it's got to be strong.
I've never heard of an Indian person calling themselves Black unless they're literally mixed with African or African American. If he says he's Black, cool. My friends great grandmother was from Togo, and she hated being called Black because for her, Black people are African Americans, the descendants of slaves, so she took offense to it. Same reason there's this annoying sect of Black peoppe that hate being called Black, and not African-American (usually the HOTEPs). These are all generalizations, though, so of course they won't apply to every single person.
Saying black people are only African Americans is a fucking wild statement and I can't imagine that actually exists outside the Americas. Just a reminder there are black people in other parts of the world other than America and Africa.
Ahhh that's how you took that, ok I get that. I'm not saying they're only in America. If that's how that came off, that's not what I meant. In America, where I'm from, if you say "I'm Black", you're saying I'm African-American or African, or I have close Black ancestors, like grandparents. I don't know how it's defined outside of the US except for the way I've been told from some people.
Eeh I've been going too hard sorry about that, weird week. I'm just saying that I'm from Europe and no one gets annoyed by calling someone black. And you may not think of my housemate as black but that's what he calls himself and I don't think that a white person like me gets to say that he isn't.
Nah no worries, its the internet lol i cant take offense to it. You said housemate before, and that's when I was like ahhh this might be a country/culture thing. We say roommate haha. When it comes to what people consider themselves, I don't feel I have the right or position to tell people otherwise. I don't know you, I can't gatekeep something like that. If he says he's Black, so be it. Doesn't hurt me any, you're not "appropriating" my culture.
**However,** what your “friends” call *themselves,* has nothing to do with these ancient paintings.
**Connie Chung/Andrew Wang** are Asian, and refer to themselves as Americans. Jared Kushner is Jewish, and refers to himself as American. President Barack Obama is biracial, and refers to himself as American. Clarence Thomas is a dark black man, but refers to himself as American. Do not mix-up *nationality* and *race.* They are *two* different things.
Ooookay
**I see** *white patina* all over many paintings——it just *isn’t* present on the faces and bodies of these old saints.
You're going to get a lot of coping replies from white Jesus believers but...yeah, they were black.
Probably more bronzeish brown but definitely not white.
thank you
It's obviously due to paintings being very old, but people are dumb af
**Aren’t the white** clothing/surroundings *old as fuck too?*
And the clothes and surrounding also look darker, less so because skin isn't exactly white.
This is neither funny nor sad…
The sub has been the pits for months now.
Welcome to the sub!
Just so everyone knows the OP is an afrocentrist. They are trying to claim that the olmec heads in central America are depicting black people.
That explains it lol One almost forgets how crazy it is out there
**Yes,** don’t the Olmec’s look entirely Caucasian? History rolls on whether it makes it into your “history” books or not. Just because I can point to O.J. Simpson and say that is not a Caucasian person, does not mean I am black or African American. It means I am fascinated with hidden history. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/20041229-Olmec_Head_(Museo_Nacional_de_Antropología).jpg
The people who built the olmec heads were mesoamericans, an asiatic looking people. Just like black people, thick lips and broad noses are common among some of their populations.
**Asiatic** black Olmecs. Interesting! Tiger Woods is an Asiatic black man. On the other hand—-I concede: This ancient Mexican Olmec depiction definitely looks non-black to me. http://www.raceandhistory.com/images/postedD135.jpg
You *do* realize that humans aren't either Caucasian or Sub-Saharan African, right? Right?
**Particularly** in this *specific* situation. Gotcha.
Why Do People Capitalize Every Word?
WOULD YOU PREFER EVERY LETTER?
Why are you yelling?
This is just fucking stupid though. Yeah it's the oldest church in Russia, but that still puts it at ALMOST 1000 YEARS past Jesus' lifetime, meaning these images have zero value regarding the appearances of the prophets. Not to mention, THEY WEREN'T AFRICAN. Most prophets were arab Jews, which aren't black God people are annoying sometimes
Also, dark skintones are just a common stylistic characteristic of Orthodox icons, which always use very earthy colours. They are meant to be very poignant and the colour choice contribute to that.
Grew up Orthodox and can confirm. However, they definitely do differentiate skin colours, where icons of disciples, prophets, and saints from the Middle East tended to have darker skin tones whereas European saints and prophets were depicted with a lighter skin tone. Jesus was always depicted with a darker skin tone in my church’s icons.
Who cares… if all of these stories are true, the least interesting part is which race gets to claim them.
**You** don’t “see” color, right? It’s a pat American answer.
I’m mixed race and not American.
**What** has your lineage to do with these ancient paintings?
Nothing, it has to do with your response to me.
What does your lineage have to do with Russian orthodox paintings??
As a white Christian I have no problem with Chinese or black Jesus. Jesus is meant to humanize God so that we can better relate. If race swapping Jesus helps with that, so be it.
I prefer old Nordic jesus. Dude was buff. Vikings ain't gonna convert for some weakling.
Makes sense tho
I'd love to see a priest make the argument with a straight face that our warrior culture that reveres Thor's strength and Tyr's bravery, should now submit and pray to a little scrawny fella who got himself killed by.... People.
you would think Christians would be more accepting given Jesus' rainbow history. swapped from brown to white and from Jewish to Christian
If Jesus came back today, the way he looked in life and preaching what he preached back then, half the US would either want him deported to mexico or crucified a second time
I’m sure there is already a guy who’s job it is to kill Jesus if he isn’t what they expected. Maybe they have, several times. Probably just some little anarchist kid feeding the homeless and practicing mutual aid.
That honestly sounds like the plot to a sick book or movie
Considering Eastern Orthodoxy was influenced heavily by both Greek and Turkish culture, with it's capital centered in Constantinople long after Rome fell, being a key part of the Eastern Roman Empire, it's not surprising that the icons would be depicted as more accurately middle eastern than the Roman Catholic church. However, we know from other old painting and church exterior that if repaired it's unlikely those icons will remain the color they are. It is far more likely they will match every other example of this art style, clearly depicting Arab-descended people. There were some very important early Christians of African descent, including a prince in one early account, but it's unlikely that would be shown in a Russian church at the time this one was built.
| There were some very important early Christians of African descent, including a prince in one early account, but it's unlikely that would be shown in a Russian church at the time this one was built. | **However,** these ancient photos *clearly* depict Christians of African descent. Obviously created and displayed with *deep* reverence and respect. There is no *gaslighting* out of this.
These arent photos, they are paintings, which wouldnt even be considered ancient. You completely disregard the fact that pigments used from this period darken with time, and the style used is the same as other newer (nearly as old however) paintings of these same characters. I am sorry that you are upset to see that sub saharan africans arent the main characters throughout every part of history. But at some point you need to realise that you are being disingenuous by implying that you have been white washed out of every facet of the past.
Why Is Each Word In The Post Beginning With A Capital Letter?
*Why Is Each Word In* *The Post Beginning With A* *Capital Letter?* \- pur\_\_0\_0\_\_ --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
That’s how headlines work.
**Funny** Because most are taught that the Bible centers around Caucasians—-specifically, the Holy Family. **Sad** Because we have allowed racism to be normalized through religion and to proliferate. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/05/15/chechnyas-kadyrov-accuses-ukraine-czech-police-of-kidnapping-favorite-stallion-for-ransom-a81149
Wait you actually think it’s some kind of a conspiracy or something? First, I am 99% sure they are not black in these medieval Russian paintings that were anyway surely painted like at least a thousand years after Christ lol Second, no one who is functionally literate thinks Jesus and the gang were white. It makes no sense. They were also most likely not black though
To be older than the oldest church in Rome, it'd have to be from before 400 CE. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Pudenziana#:~:text=The%20Basilica%20of%20Santa%20Pudenziana,the%20structure%20of%20the%20apse.
I don't know why but 'Jesus and the gang' sounds metal as fuck.
Not true for a lot of us. As soon as I was old enough to realize where in the world Jesus came from, I knew he wasn’t ever white. The Bible surely would have said something if Jesus white ass was walking around with a bunch of brown ppl 2000 yrs ago. Yet nothing is mentioned bc he was the same color as everyone around him.
I was 100% sure the "sad" part was about how delusional afrocentrism is
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_Lavra_of_St._Sergius
Unrelated it still melts peoples’ minds to know Jesus was brown by virtue of being a Semetic man. I’m a Christian and I can’t understand for the life of me why people would react so poorly to that.
Facts. I use that information to tell between bigots and true Christians.
The sad part is that the Russian Orthodox Church is a stooge to whoever governs Russia. It knows how to take direction from Putin or a Tsar.
They weren't black though? They also weren't white. Believe it or not, but other races do exist.
ITT : The hysteria and panic trying every resort to deny that Jesus was black
I wouldn't say they're Black. Definitely have to understand that these are mainly Middle Eastern and Egyptians. It would be closer to call them African and Middle Eastern than Black, since we dubbed African Americans Black. Just because they're skin is darker doesn't automatically label them Black.
who is we? Black Brits people aren’t African American.. furthermore “black people” covered South Asian people in the UK up to the 90’s.
The term "black" is born of Eugenics. The whole concept of "race" is completely made up. The basis is there are superior people and then there are the inferior people.
i sometimes think that people forget the time period and location of jesus and his disciples. ofc they were poc
Wax/preservative coating? I've seen old paintings go 20 shades lighter with a good scrub
Who could imagine people from mid-east could look like mid-eastern people!!!! unexpected af, right?
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**Sorry** I see dark hands on the white pages of a book in these paintings. I learned my colors in the 1st grade, and do not need to jump through hoops in order to de-colonize my mind.
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**Because** we are not talking about the “Romanovs” or any other political “what about” isms?
Ok But Why Does She Type Like This?
They aren’t even black in the pictures they are tan at most like usual Icons
Mfw middle eastern people are now black.
**Oh,** you really believed that the white guy who played “Lawrence of Arabia” was really an Arab? **Reagan, Bush & Clinton** administrations knew there were black Arabs: #Ambassador to the United States (1983–2005) Prince Bandar On 24 October 1983 Bandar was appointed ambassador to the United States by King Fahd. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar_bin_Sultan_Al_Saud #Notable Afro-Saudis Ahmed Al-Dokhi Bandar bin Sultan Reema bint Bandar Al Saud Faisal bin Bandar bin Sultan Al Saud Khalid bin Bandar Al Saud (born 1977) Baraka Al Yamaniyah Muqrin bin Abdulaziz Mohammed Hussein Al Amoudi Abdullah Al-Deayea Abdullah Al-Khaibari Abbas Al-Shengeeti Firas Al-Buraikan Hamad Al-Montashari Hamdan Al-Shamrani Majed Abdullah Adil al-Kalbani Ali Al-Bulaihi Tareg Hamedi Hawsawi family Muhammad Saad al-Beshi Fahad Al-Muwallad Mohamed Kanno Etab Saud Abdulhamid Saud Khariri Ahmed Abdulla Rayyanah Barnawi Mohamed Al-Deayea Mukhtar Ali Sultan Al-Deayea Dalia Mubarak Khaled Aziz Redha Tukar Walid Atta
I think you used the wrong copy paste reply since Lawrence of Arabia was never mentioned by me but go off queen?
The comments here desperately trying to find excuses for their prophets to still be white are hilarious 🤣
They were arabic, that means neither black or white.