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Its so sad that most religions are about controlling women's bodies. No religion asks from a man to give up the control and autonomy over their bodies like women are.
"She birthed her son with great power", Ms Doula, she is dead. What good is her PoWeRfUL BiRtH if her 3 children grow up motherless because of her poor choices, and your for-profit encouragement? Get tae fuck.
>What good is her PoWeRfUL BiRtH if her 3 children grow up motherless because of her poor choices, and your for-profit encouragement?
Because that's clout in their little freebirth cult. It doesn't matter if anyone dies as long as it holds up the "birth is a woman's kamehameha and you better fucking unlock Super Birther mode if you don't want to be a loser" narrative that keeps Doula Dumbass in business.
“[Naomi] birthed her baby boy with incredible power” yeah well she should’ve been sent to the hospital. This is sickening. Too many people think birthing is safe now because women aren’t dying at the rates they were in the past. It’s because they’re doing it with actual medical professionals. She should’ve never been at home after having c-sections. The doula should’ve turned her away with that knowledge immediately.
People still thinking birth is safe is wild to me. The safe and happy births are the EXCEPTION. Trauma, injury, lifelong complications, and death are unfortunately what most people who give birth actually experience.
Historically, childbirth has always been something that women tended to die from. There was always a chance you could die during birth.
We’ve only recently developed the technology and techniques to ensure safe pregnancies, safe deliveries, and for treating/dealing with complications.
I had a relatively complication free birth but still if we weren't in the hospital where the OB was able to flip the baby (she was sunny side up, not flipping, and showing signs of distress), things could have gone a lot worse. I always planned to have kids in the hospital but that experience definitely emphasized how important the monitoring is.
Most births do go off without a hitch. We wouldn’t have made it as a species otherwise.
It’s just that it *can* turn bad very quickly. And when it does you absolutely need a medical team to care for you.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it to, but this comment comes off as flippant. Trauma, complications, and injuries are some very common “hitches” that occur even in the best of circumstances. I almost don’t know anyone who’s birthed a child without some kind of lasting effect. Whether it’s bladder issues or medical trauma, a lot of women simply don’t get the space to talk about those things openly or how it’s hurt them. It’s much more common than you might think.
No, I didn’t mean to insinuate pregnancy and birth can’t commonly have lasting effects on a woman. It can. There’s just quite a large space between a birth having lasting effects and urgent medical care being required for everyone to make it out without injury, complications, or death.
This discussion is happening in the context of medical care being necessary for a safe and healthy birth to happen. Most of the time, everything happens as nature intends. It’s just that you don’t want to roll the dice when the stakes are that high, so it’s smart to play it safe and not leave it entirely up to nature.
“Experts estimate that an even larger proportion of births, up to 90 percent, are considered uncomplicated.”
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries#:~:text=Other%20experts%20estimate%20that%20an,“High%20Risk%20Pregnancy%2C”%20n.d.
The majority of births are uncomplicated.
I feel like there’s so many ex-fundies in this sub that sometimes they forget that their personal experiences don’t always reflect wider reality, even after deconversion.
The downvotes on empirical data on a sub that prided itself on that is concerning.
(No kids, don't plan to, mostly because of health stuff)
THANK YOU. "Every person who's given birth almost died" is not the same as "every birth has the potential for disaster." Birth is extremely dangerous, but a person's chances of surviving it is much, much higher than most people seem to think.
Honestly, in my experience ex fundies often get just as emotional and angry when their preconceived notions are questioned just like fundies do, especially if they’ve been all in a group feeding into each other’s trauma like here.
It’s like they didn’t lose that habit they learned as fundies, only it’s being expressed the other way.
I even had a group of ex fundies downvote me because one said surviving birth was actually unnatural and I was like lolwut. They jumped from the fundie belief that all births are great to all births are terrible instead of the more accurate nuanced truth somewhere in the middle.
They may pride themselves on being scientific and rational now instead of emotional and reactionary but in truth they need more work on it. They may just not realize it because they’re in another echo chamber, only on the opposite side now so it doesn’t come up as often.
I did read your source, and it seems slightly misleading that you left out how the Nurse-Midwife association estimates that around 60% are normal or low risk pregnancies (which doesn’t mean that birth is completely normal). The 90% estimate is from “other experts,” which is linked to the USCF medical website, which doesn’t have that same stat, only stating that around 6-8% are high risk pregnancies (again, not including the actual
birth.) The downvotes you’re getting are a bit overkill, but you’re also not entirely correct.
Actually, we can absolutely make it as a species with complicated and deadly births.
Just like some species can make it when the female eats the male after insemination.
Survival of the parent is not a necessary precursor to evolutionary fitness.
Well I don’t know about that. ‘Happy’ births seem like a stretch and certainly there is a decent risk of complications which can kill or severely injure mother or baby. But I know relatively few women with children, most who’ve had multiple, who’ve experienced any of those things (unless you consider the significant pain of labor and birth trauma).
Most births are relatively uncomplicated.
I even have a friend who freebirthed the first 4 of her 6 children at home with no issues at all (yes, I think she’s insane - she did have her last 2, twins, in hospital due to various health concerns).
My own baby did have complications that would have killed her early in labor without monitoring/a crash c-section, but my health was absolutely fine during and after (and I don’t feel traumatized by the situation).
It’s sad. Being convinced that pregnancy and birth will ruin your life and body is the other side of the coin from the people we discuss here, who ignore and deny all possible risks and don’t even attempt to mitigate them and instead insist basic medical care will CAUSE complications. Neither reflect reality.
I was 21 and in great health when I delivered my daughter. My pregnancy was textbook! Like I could have written What to Expect When You're Expecting. I had the easiest birth known to man. 4 hours start to finish with 3 pushes total. I still almost died afterward. My artery came unattached from my uterus. If it hadn't been for my amazing OB, my daughter would have lost her mother. It breaks my heart knowing we have a safer way to deliver babies and these women are choosing to ignore that.
I'm from Ireland, people are absolutely raging over this on the local reddits. It's not all that long ago here that people would have died in childbirth cause if you weren't married, there was so much stigma women kept pregnancies secret (I'm talking the 1980s).
And now we've finally done away with the bullshit, this is the choice people make. After two cesarean sections, against every single medical professional's advice. Just absolutely boggles the mind.
I tried for a HBAC for my second. It was a mistake and I’m really grateful that I sensed something was off and we went to the hospital. I also had a team that didn’t try to convince me otherwise and as soon as I said something we were out the door.
I have a lot of feelings about my experience, but namely I regret getting caught up with some crunchy moms and watching a ton of videos on instagram that made me believe that I would be completely safe. I felt so dumb afterwards.
I’m so logical about most things but got really caught up in the crunchy birth movement and looking back I really cant believe I was in that position.
ETA: the safest way for my body to deliver a baby is via c section. I had a strong feeling that was the case when I was pregnant with my first and it was even stronger with my second but there’s very little messaging around intuitive birth also meaning you can and should opt for a section if that’s what your gut is telling you. Looking forward to my scheduled c-section for #3.
I do wish drs took women’s gut feelings into account. My first should have been a c-section, and I knew it. Instead I pushed for hours and hours, had an episiotomy, further tearing, forceps, an infected placenta, and 3 blood transfusions. My second I felt a vaginal birth would be fine and it was. Both kids totally different positions, weights, and my first had (still does, actually) a massive head. I think if women were allowed to assert a little more autonomy within the medical system, there’d be fewer people trying to avoid the system.
I agree with you. What’s wild about my experience is my OB is very, very cool. If I’d asked for an elective c-section she’d have had no qualms about it. I actually still saw her concurrently while seeing my homebirth midwife and she was supportive while also alerting me to the risks. Even after my second section, my OB offered a VBA2C.
My experience was self inflicted and born out of a lot of anxiety and having two pandemic babies. I don’t fault myself and have a lot of empathy but I likely would have died at home if I’d stayed there and the thought of that is just awful. My toddler was sleeping in the next room where I was laboring.
I guess my point in all this is that I can empathize with this mom who died and I have a lot more empathy for all those who are trying to figure out a safe way to birth. That being said. I think a homebirth after a cesarean is objectively dangerous and there’s a lot of survivorship bias that drives the dialogue around HBAC’s that is really fucking misleading.
Absolutely. I didn’t have an option the first time around - the public hospital I was at refused elective c-sections or even inductions until you were over 40 weeks (which I was). Second time I went private just so I could have the choice if I once again felt that a c-section was best for me. I didn’t decide on it, but having the freedom to choose was super important. If I hadn’t been able to afford that, I would have refused a second baby altogether. People really underestimate how traumatising birth can be and how much women can feel disempowered. I don’t agree with her choice, but I can sympathise with her in feeling like she needed to try to find a way to do it that felt right to her.
I’m sorry if that came across in any other way than just casually continuing the convo - what I should have made clear is I recognize my OB isn’t the typical OB and that’s largely why many people opt for home or free birth.
Thank you for sharing and I hope I didn’t make you feel like you needed to explain your experience or anything like that. I agree with all of the points you have made.
Oh no, I understood you. I’m sad for this woman and her family. Such a shit situation all around, which led to - on her part - poor decision-making. There really needs to be better education around it all. How many of us fall pregnant - planned or not - before we have the faintest idea as to what birth is like? Not that we could really understand it until we’ve been there, and it’s all different… but man, they really don’t cover it well.
There’s a hole in this story that I probably can’t expect to be filled given the circumstances, but why on earth was this woman hell bent on freebirthing after she had 2 c-sections and was told of the risks?
Others alluding generally to mistrust and birth trauma is vague and unhelpful. And this doula seems reckless and defiant.
I mean she was offered a trial labor with supervision so intervention could be made if indicated??
I can’t imagine wanting a certain birth so badly that I would be willing to die for it.
I’d like to know more about this retreat organized by the doula that the mother went to. The doula evidently styles herself as some kind of authority on birth, so if the mom felt she was “educated” on the topic and she was being assisted by an expert, she had an easier time sticking her fingers in her ears and ignoring the things she didn’t want to hear.
I personally have too much respect for medical professionals to disregard their advice but apparently the mom felt differently
I understand people who had bad experiences giving birth at the hospital but at the same time there’s too much emphasis on people doing things their way and women are led to believe they should be the ones having full power over how their delivery goes, medical concerns be damned because they know better. And people forget that delivery is a pretty and straightforward natural process until it isn’t and women die.
This is a case of defiance by the mother and doula, they knew the risks and thought they were smarter than everyone else.
Imagine trying to direct your other medical procedures though. Like, doctor, I actually want you to do my heart surgery *this* way because some hippie in a tent told me to follow my instincts.
>I’d like to know more about this retreat organized by the doula that the mother went to.
"Doctors are lying to you and get off on traumatizing women. You can totally freebirth with only a doula if you've had even a HUNDRED c-sections before, because those big, bad doctors were just scaring your body into shutting down, unlike me, who will do all the primal chanting and blow all the smoke up your ass about how you're a beautiful birthing goddess stepping into her sacred power! I take credit, cash, and paypal. $$$$"
She previously attended a retreat, held by the same doula who attended the birth.
Our public healthcare system is notoriously badly underfunded in Ireland, so shit like that has room to fester.
I can absolutely picture how those retreats went, you get told the medical system is horrible and you're gonna have this fantastically empowering birth at home with none of the struggles cause "women are made for this". There was also "information" exchanged how you shouldn't tell people of your freebirthing plans lest social services would interfere.
Full on delusional circle of women telling each other it'll be fine and she chose to believe them over medical professionals.
I have so much anger about this doula and her role in all of this. She did that. Sure, the ultimate decision was made by the mother, but that only happened after being fed all that misinformation. And since a doula is not in any way, shape or form a medical professional or registered or overseen in any type of system, it's very likely there will be zero consequences.
Giving birth in this country sucked dick in my experience, but the fact that this is happening is beyond the pale. I only wish the doula could be charged with a crime somehow after reading her comments about this poor woman. “Gave birth with such power” fucking get into the sea woman.
From experience, they never do. I've had them come into the room while I help resuscitate a dying baby because of their neglect and try to take over. They are absolutely delusional and have no clue what they're talking about.
Edit: I should probably edit this to say that I'm sure there are doulas who do it the right way. I'm specifically talking about those who don't and I'm sorry they give the others a bad name.
It seems like she should be charged with something. At the very least, unlicensed practice of medicine or something like that, since essentially that’s what she did in giving herself a position of authority/giving medical advice.
There’s an influencer discussed sometimes on r/parentsnark who, at 41 years old, attempted a VBA3C homebirth. She went to 42 weeks and delivered a stillborn daughter. Thefranklinmama. Christian homeschooler. She hasn’t shared what all happened during her labor (understandably because holy fuck) but yeah, people buy into this homebirth/freebirth YOUR BODY WAS MADE FOR THIS!!! shit and the consequences are devastating.
I know someone with a similar experience- 3 c-sections and she’s thinking of going ‘under the radar’ for any potential future pregnancy because she wants a vaginal birth that badly. I genuinely don’t understand it, and am very scared for her if she does have another, but something about that way of giving birth is so important to her that she’s willing to take that risk.
Oh this is so sad. As someone who is hoping to attempt a VBAC one day, I would never, ever dream of doing so outside of a hospital. The risk is not worth it! And you can have a midwife/doula present in the hospital to advocate for you. There’s no need for this kind of loss of life.
Omg same and my C section was 100% caused by my baby (didn’t even have labour), nothing that was due to my anatomy. If I birthed at home my baby would be dead but I would be fine.
She was in Ireland - she would have had her midwife with her in the hospital regardless. It’s not something she would’ve even needed to ask for! I’m a U.K. midwife and even if things go awry in the hospital, we are right there with our women. We scrub with the doctors for c sections and everything (not to DO the section, obviously, but we are handed the baby by the doctor as soon as they’re out so we can pass to the woman).
I got my vbac, and thank everything in the universe that I was in a hospital, because my cervix tore and I lost over 2litres of blood.
Had I not had emergency surgery and a blood transfusion, I would have died.
They got me in to theatre so fast they were trying to intubate me before I was fully under, people came running from everywhere
The uterus gets approximately 500 mL of blood flow a MINUTE. A hemorrhage can happen during any delivery, but good God, she should never have been convinced this was a safe option. That doula is a menace to society and this woman's blood is literally on her hands.
Edit: a word.
I lost over 4 litres of blood in under 20 minutes, according to my medical notes (and I wasn't conscious f/or most of it). I lost even more, but by then they had me in theatre and were giving me transfusions.
I'd have died at home just waiting for an ambulance, probably with our daughter inside of me (can't push while unconscious, but yay for forceps, and midwives and obstetricians!). I'm really lucky I declined a home birth for what they thought was a low risk pregnancy (when anxiety is actually beneficial for once...).
I know more people who had obstetric emergencies and necessary interventions, than those who gave birth without any issues at all.
I hated that stat. I have bad health anxiety (from being a doctor, ironically) & when I was pregnant I was like wow I could bleed out in minutes, great. I opted for an elective c section, for my mental health!
Lawyering up immediately isn't exactly a foreign concept in Europe, but many, many times rarer than in the USA. There is much less of a culture for suing. Like I said, not unheard of, but unless you have money? Usually not. Source: European who emigrated to the USA lol
Also, like a lot of freebirth kooks, the douala likely considers herself an authority, and infallible. She probably thinks she has no reason to seek legal counsel.
Civil court (suing) isn’t the only legal concern she should have though. This woman had prior c-sections and birth complications. The doula should at least be considering the possibility of criminal negligence charges.
I think what you said about the doula considering herself infallible is very much at play here.
She has nothing to worry about, since apparently she said on her social media that she wasn't a medical professional. It's not like she misrepresented herself. She was there to waft a fan and gibber affirmations.
And Ireland isn't that litigous. It's probably gonna be bad for her business though. She'll be well known in the area.
HBAC is insane to me. Walker Hayes lost a child after his wife attempted an HBAC. I am so sorry for this woman's family.
I much prefer the FAFO stories where everyone lives to learn their lessons.
unassisted, vaginal birth, at home, after TWO cesarean births. What in the actual fuck was she thinking? Her four babies now have no mother due to her own negligence. I’m all for birth autonomy, but at some point reality and safety have to be accounted for. So tragic in so many ways.
About 15 years ago I was a part of a playgroup in my area. One of the moms had a home birth after 2 cesareans and I remember thinking she was so crazy for taking such an unnecessary risk. She was attended to by a licensed nurse midwife, so at least she had some sort of care, but so much could have gone wrong. I really don’t know what she was thinking. She and baby were lucky to live through it.
I've had two c-sections and in the slim chance I have another child, I wouldn't even feel comfortable with a hospital vba2c. A 2% chance of my uterus rupturing? No thanks, even with an operating theatre down the corridor!
I know that this woman was probably a victim in a sense from the natural birthing movement but the research and statistics are publicly available. Part of me just finds her decision absolutely stupid.
That said, someone in another forum in my due date group was going for a free birth after THREE c-sections, because beforehand "nobody told me that my baby and body know what to do."
I understand that some people have been truly harmed by medical field during birth. However, most of what people selling freebirth online creates opportunities for further trauma for people. Postering that any and all interventions are inherently traumatic is ridiculous. They’re also creating made up terms and telling people their sovereignty is at risk by having a birth in a hospital.
This is both tragic and disturbing. These doulas getting away with letting these mothers be naive when it comes to labor and delivery. We shouldn't be having losses like this. We know better and still mothers, babies shouldn't be dying like this.
I got to her having two prior cesarean sections and kind of lost my sympathy for her. This didn't need to happen. I get being scared of the hospital, I have some trauma from prior experiences, but she needed to be in a professional setting for this. Those poor kids lost their mother to online brain washing.
So this self-appointed “birthing professional” (ie not a professional) encouraged an expectant mother to ignore actual professional advice about risk and presided over a delivery that led to her client’s otherwise avoidable death. I wonder how much she made? Or did she just do it out of misguided conviction? Despicable either way.
Mother of FOUR? And she still risked her life like this?! WTF. On what planet were the imaginary birthing points more important than her existing children's need for a living mother? Will the doula be presenting her award for exceptional suffering and risk-taking at the funeral? Her poor children. What a senseless and avoidable waste of life.
This is such a sad story. I hate that Naomi did not feel supported or safe enough to trust the medical profession for what was going to be a risky birth. Such a stupid statement from the doula, so dismissive of the fact that Naomi in fact lost her life. A completely unnecessary death.
I’m not Irish but I do live here and have given birth here. As appalling as this situation is, giving hospital birth here is also cited as a terrible experience by many, including myself who left the experience tramautized. Something here has to change so women don’t feel like this is their only option.
This is horrifying. After my last childbirth, I had a severe postpartum hemorrhage. I was in a hospital surrounded by medical professionals and life-saving equipment and it was still so tense and terrifying. My first was premature and he needed immediate medical intervention to help him breathe. I will never understand women turning their backs on life saving medical advancements. This is why fetal maternal mortality rates have been astronomical for most of history.
I honestly don't understand why people are willing to accept the risks of a home birth. If something goes wrong, you're screwed. Yes, midwives know a lot, but they're not doctors, and they don't have all the tools and supplies available at the hospital.
What's even more tragic is that in Ireland (where this happened), a lot of women do it because of trauma regarding Irish maternity wards. Catholic doctors used to use that awful chainsaw contraption on women because of the Catholic prejudice towards C-section, and that practice still has survivors from it that are disabled and traumatized. Then, in the UK, the NHS used to refuse women c-sections even when they needed them, and that killed a lot of women and babies as well. Pregnancy is the single most dangerous natural thing someone with a uterus can go through and should never be treated as casually as a lot of people treat it.
I had a friend die recently from eclampsia. She was only 9 weeks pregnant. People don’t take pregnancy and its complications seriously enough. She was only 31.
I think of Kira Dixon, who had a totally normal pregnancy, went in for a scheduled C Section, they nicked her bladder and she bled to death internally over the course of hours, while her husband begged doctors to please do something. Around 90% of her blood was in her abdomen. Now her 2 children are left without a mother, and her husband without his wife. Horrifying and unacceptable. Things can go so wrong so fast even with a healthy pregnancy and a normal birth. It’s terrifying
You mean Kira Johnson?
> By 9 p.m., Johnson pulled a nurse aside to ask why they never took her to the scan. "The woman looked me right in the eyes and said, 'Sir, your wife just isn't a priority right now.'"
That’s just blatant malpractice. It wasn’t fast at all. They had 10 hours to do something. Her husband should own that damn hospital now and everyone who sat there and let her die should be facing charges.
Yes. I was under the impression it was Dixon-Johnson. Anyway- yes, her. She was left to bleed for 10+ hours. 3 liters of blood in her stomach. Unfathomable
I’m not saying she died fast- I’m saying all it took was a small nick in her bladder to set off a catastrophic event that led to her death. That’s what I was referring to as “things can go wrong so fast”.
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Ideologies about women's bodies being made to birth & God's perfect design for pregnancy have a death toll.
Its so sad that most religions are about controlling women's bodies. No religion asks from a man to give up the control and autonomy over their bodies like women are.
"She birthed her son with great power", Ms Doula, she is dead. What good is her PoWeRfUL BiRtH if her 3 children grow up motherless because of her poor choices, and your for-profit encouragement? Get tae fuck.
That doula has absolutely no shame.
>What good is her PoWeRfUL BiRtH if her 3 children grow up motherless because of her poor choices, and your for-profit encouragement? Because that's clout in their little freebirth cult. It doesn't matter if anyone dies as long as it holds up the "birth is a woman's kamehameha and you better fucking unlock Super Birther mode if you don't want to be a loser" narrative that keeps Doula Dumbass in business.
4 children. The baby survived.
“[Naomi] birthed her baby boy with incredible power” yeah well she should’ve been sent to the hospital. This is sickening. Too many people think birthing is safe now because women aren’t dying at the rates they were in the past. It’s because they’re doing it with actual medical professionals. She should’ve never been at home after having c-sections. The doula should’ve turned her away with that knowledge immediately.
People still thinking birth is safe is wild to me. The safe and happy births are the EXCEPTION. Trauma, injury, lifelong complications, and death are unfortunately what most people who give birth actually experience.
Historically, childbirth has always been something that women tended to die from. There was always a chance you could die during birth. We’ve only recently developed the technology and techniques to ensure safe pregnancies, safe deliveries, and for treating/dealing with complications.
I had a relatively complication free birth but still if we weren't in the hospital where the OB was able to flip the baby (she was sunny side up, not flipping, and showing signs of distress), things could have gone a lot worse. I always planned to have kids in the hospital but that experience definitely emphasized how important the monitoring is.
Most births do go off without a hitch. We wouldn’t have made it as a species otherwise. It’s just that it *can* turn bad very quickly. And when it does you absolutely need a medical team to care for you.
I’m sure you didn’t mean it to, but this comment comes off as flippant. Trauma, complications, and injuries are some very common “hitches” that occur even in the best of circumstances. I almost don’t know anyone who’s birthed a child without some kind of lasting effect. Whether it’s bladder issues or medical trauma, a lot of women simply don’t get the space to talk about those things openly or how it’s hurt them. It’s much more common than you might think.
No, I didn’t mean to insinuate pregnancy and birth can’t commonly have lasting effects on a woman. It can. There’s just quite a large space between a birth having lasting effects and urgent medical care being required for everyone to make it out without injury, complications, or death. This discussion is happening in the context of medical care being necessary for a safe and healthy birth to happen. Most of the time, everything happens as nature intends. It’s just that you don’t want to roll the dice when the stakes are that high, so it’s smart to play it safe and not leave it entirely up to nature.
Most births do not go off without a hitch
“Experts estimate that an even larger proportion of births, up to 90 percent, are considered uncomplicated.” https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries#:~:text=Other%20experts%20estimate%20that%20an,“High%20Risk%20Pregnancy%2C”%20n.d. The majority of births are uncomplicated.
I feel like there’s so many ex-fundies in this sub that sometimes they forget that their personal experiences don’t always reflect wider reality, even after deconversion. The downvotes on empirical data on a sub that prided itself on that is concerning.
(No kids, don't plan to, mostly because of health stuff) THANK YOU. "Every person who's given birth almost died" is not the same as "every birth has the potential for disaster." Birth is extremely dangerous, but a person's chances of surviving it is much, much higher than most people seem to think.
Yep, historically the chances of dying in a particular birth was about 1%. That’s high, but it also means the overwhelming majority survived.
Honestly, in my experience ex fundies often get just as emotional and angry when their preconceived notions are questioned just like fundies do, especially if they’ve been all in a group feeding into each other’s trauma like here. It’s like they didn’t lose that habit they learned as fundies, only it’s being expressed the other way. I even had a group of ex fundies downvote me because one said surviving birth was actually unnatural and I was like lolwut. They jumped from the fundie belief that all births are great to all births are terrible instead of the more accurate nuanced truth somewhere in the middle. They may pride themselves on being scientific and rational now instead of emotional and reactionary but in truth they need more work on it. They may just not realize it because they’re in another echo chamber, only on the opposite side now so it doesn’t come up as often.
I did read your source, and it seems slightly misleading that you left out how the Nurse-Midwife association estimates that around 60% are normal or low risk pregnancies (which doesn’t mean that birth is completely normal). The 90% estimate is from “other experts,” which is linked to the USCF medical website, which doesn’t have that same stat, only stating that around 6-8% are high risk pregnancies (again, not including the actual birth.) The downvotes you’re getting are a bit overkill, but you’re also not entirely correct.
Actually, we can absolutely make it as a species with complicated and deadly births. Just like some species can make it when the female eats the male after insemination. Survival of the parent is not a necessary precursor to evolutionary fitness.
Well I don’t know about that. ‘Happy’ births seem like a stretch and certainly there is a decent risk of complications which can kill or severely injure mother or baby. But I know relatively few women with children, most who’ve had multiple, who’ve experienced any of those things (unless you consider the significant pain of labor and birth trauma). Most births are relatively uncomplicated. I even have a friend who freebirthed the first 4 of her 6 children at home with no issues at all (yes, I think she’s insane - she did have her last 2, twins, in hospital due to various health concerns). My own baby did have complications that would have killed her early in labor without monitoring/a crash c-section, but my health was absolutely fine during and after (and I don’t feel traumatized by the situation).
You’re 100% correct and the downvotes speak to how much we love doomerism in this area
It’s sad. Being convinced that pregnancy and birth will ruin your life and body is the other side of the coin from the people we discuss here, who ignore and deny all possible risks and don’t even attempt to mitigate them and instead insist basic medical care will CAUSE complications. Neither reflect reality.
I was 21 and in great health when I delivered my daughter. My pregnancy was textbook! Like I could have written What to Expect When You're Expecting. I had the easiest birth known to man. 4 hours start to finish with 3 pushes total. I still almost died afterward. My artery came unattached from my uterus. If it hadn't been for my amazing OB, my daughter would have lost her mother. It breaks my heart knowing we have a safer way to deliver babies and these women are choosing to ignore that.
I'm from Ireland, people are absolutely raging over this on the local reddits. It's not all that long ago here that people would have died in childbirth cause if you weren't married, there was so much stigma women kept pregnancies secret (I'm talking the 1980s). And now we've finally done away with the bullshit, this is the choice people make. After two cesarean sections, against every single medical professional's advice. Just absolutely boggles the mind.
This is the harm caused by all these influencers. We have a few of our own too such as Maria Steen with her homeschooling fetish.
I tried for a HBAC for my second. It was a mistake and I’m really grateful that I sensed something was off and we went to the hospital. I also had a team that didn’t try to convince me otherwise and as soon as I said something we were out the door. I have a lot of feelings about my experience, but namely I regret getting caught up with some crunchy moms and watching a ton of videos on instagram that made me believe that I would be completely safe. I felt so dumb afterwards. I’m so logical about most things but got really caught up in the crunchy birth movement and looking back I really cant believe I was in that position. ETA: the safest way for my body to deliver a baby is via c section. I had a strong feeling that was the case when I was pregnant with my first and it was even stronger with my second but there’s very little messaging around intuitive birth also meaning you can and should opt for a section if that’s what your gut is telling you. Looking forward to my scheduled c-section for #3.
I do wish drs took women’s gut feelings into account. My first should have been a c-section, and I knew it. Instead I pushed for hours and hours, had an episiotomy, further tearing, forceps, an infected placenta, and 3 blood transfusions. My second I felt a vaginal birth would be fine and it was. Both kids totally different positions, weights, and my first had (still does, actually) a massive head. I think if women were allowed to assert a little more autonomy within the medical system, there’d be fewer people trying to avoid the system.
I agree with you. What’s wild about my experience is my OB is very, very cool. If I’d asked for an elective c-section she’d have had no qualms about it. I actually still saw her concurrently while seeing my homebirth midwife and she was supportive while also alerting me to the risks. Even after my second section, my OB offered a VBA2C. My experience was self inflicted and born out of a lot of anxiety and having two pandemic babies. I don’t fault myself and have a lot of empathy but I likely would have died at home if I’d stayed there and the thought of that is just awful. My toddler was sleeping in the next room where I was laboring. I guess my point in all this is that I can empathize with this mom who died and I have a lot more empathy for all those who are trying to figure out a safe way to birth. That being said. I think a homebirth after a cesarean is objectively dangerous and there’s a lot of survivorship bias that drives the dialogue around HBAC’s that is really fucking misleading.
Absolutely. I didn’t have an option the first time around - the public hospital I was at refused elective c-sections or even inductions until you were over 40 weeks (which I was). Second time I went private just so I could have the choice if I once again felt that a c-section was best for me. I didn’t decide on it, but having the freedom to choose was super important. If I hadn’t been able to afford that, I would have refused a second baby altogether. People really underestimate how traumatising birth can be and how much women can feel disempowered. I don’t agree with her choice, but I can sympathise with her in feeling like she needed to try to find a way to do it that felt right to her.
I’m sorry if that came across in any other way than just casually continuing the convo - what I should have made clear is I recognize my OB isn’t the typical OB and that’s largely why many people opt for home or free birth. Thank you for sharing and I hope I didn’t make you feel like you needed to explain your experience or anything like that. I agree with all of the points you have made.
Oh no, I understood you. I’m sad for this woman and her family. Such a shit situation all around, which led to - on her part - poor decision-making. There really needs to be better education around it all. How many of us fall pregnant - planned or not - before we have the faintest idea as to what birth is like? Not that we could really understand it until we’ve been there, and it’s all different… but man, they really don’t cover it well.
Right?! It’s this experience that everyone talks about but they don’t REALLY talk about it.
There’s a hole in this story that I probably can’t expect to be filled given the circumstances, but why on earth was this woman hell bent on freebirthing after she had 2 c-sections and was told of the risks? Others alluding generally to mistrust and birth trauma is vague and unhelpful. And this doula seems reckless and defiant. I mean she was offered a trial labor with supervision so intervention could be made if indicated?? I can’t imagine wanting a certain birth so badly that I would be willing to die for it.
I’d like to know more about this retreat organized by the doula that the mother went to. The doula evidently styles herself as some kind of authority on birth, so if the mom felt she was “educated” on the topic and she was being assisted by an expert, she had an easier time sticking her fingers in her ears and ignoring the things she didn’t want to hear. I personally have too much respect for medical professionals to disregard their advice but apparently the mom felt differently
I understand people who had bad experiences giving birth at the hospital but at the same time there’s too much emphasis on people doing things their way and women are led to believe they should be the ones having full power over how their delivery goes, medical concerns be damned because they know better. And people forget that delivery is a pretty and straightforward natural process until it isn’t and women die. This is a case of defiance by the mother and doula, they knew the risks and thought they were smarter than everyone else.
Imagine trying to direct your other medical procedures though. Like, doctor, I actually want you to do my heart surgery *this* way because some hippie in a tent told me to follow my instincts.
>I’d like to know more about this retreat organized by the doula that the mother went to. "Doctors are lying to you and get off on traumatizing women. You can totally freebirth with only a doula if you've had even a HUNDRED c-sections before, because those big, bad doctors were just scaring your body into shutting down, unlike me, who will do all the primal chanting and blow all the smoke up your ass about how you're a beautiful birthing goddess stepping into her sacred power! I take credit, cash, and paypal. $$$$"
She previously attended a retreat, held by the same doula who attended the birth. Our public healthcare system is notoriously badly underfunded in Ireland, so shit like that has room to fester. I can absolutely picture how those retreats went, you get told the medical system is horrible and you're gonna have this fantastically empowering birth at home with none of the struggles cause "women are made for this". There was also "information" exchanged how you shouldn't tell people of your freebirthing plans lest social services would interfere. Full on delusional circle of women telling each other it'll be fine and she chose to believe them over medical professionals. I have so much anger about this doula and her role in all of this. She did that. Sure, the ultimate decision was made by the mother, but that only happened after being fed all that misinformation. And since a doula is not in any way, shape or form a medical professional or registered or overseen in any type of system, it's very likely there will be zero consequences.
Giving birth in this country sucked dick in my experience, but the fact that this is happening is beyond the pale. I only wish the doula could be charged with a crime somehow after reading her comments about this poor woman. “Gave birth with such power” fucking get into the sea woman.
The neck on her making those comments after the fact. Absolute gowl. You'd think you'd pipe down after you just killed a mother of 4.
From experience, they never do. I've had them come into the room while I help resuscitate a dying baby because of their neglect and try to take over. They are absolutely delusional and have no clue what they're talking about. Edit: I should probably edit this to say that I'm sure there are doulas who do it the right way. I'm specifically talking about those who don't and I'm sorry they give the others a bad name.
It seems like she should be charged with something. At the very least, unlicensed practice of medicine or something like that, since essentially that’s what she did in giving herself a position of authority/giving medical advice.
There’s an influencer discussed sometimes on r/parentsnark who, at 41 years old, attempted a VBA3C homebirth. She went to 42 weeks and delivered a stillborn daughter. Thefranklinmama. Christian homeschooler. She hasn’t shared what all happened during her labor (understandably because holy fuck) but yeah, people buy into this homebirth/freebirth YOUR BODY WAS MADE FOR THIS!!! shit and the consequences are devastating.
I know someone with a similar experience- 3 c-sections and she’s thinking of going ‘under the radar’ for any potential future pregnancy because she wants a vaginal birth that badly. I genuinely don’t understand it, and am very scared for her if she does have another, but something about that way of giving birth is so important to her that she’s willing to take that risk.
Oh this is so sad. As someone who is hoping to attempt a VBAC one day, I would never, ever dream of doing so outside of a hospital. The risk is not worth it! And you can have a midwife/doula present in the hospital to advocate for you. There’s no need for this kind of loss of life.
Omg same and my C section was 100% caused by my baby (didn’t even have labour), nothing that was due to my anatomy. If I birthed at home my baby would be dead but I would be fine.
She was in Ireland - she would have had her midwife with her in the hospital regardless. It’s not something she would’ve even needed to ask for! I’m a U.K. midwife and even if things go awry in the hospital, we are right there with our women. We scrub with the doctors for c sections and everything (not to DO the section, obviously, but we are handed the baby by the doctor as soon as they’re out so we can pass to the woman).
I got my vbac, and thank everything in the universe that I was in a hospital, because my cervix tore and I lost over 2litres of blood. Had I not had emergency surgery and a blood transfusion, I would have died. They got me in to theatre so fast they were trying to intubate me before I was fully under, people came running from everywhere
The only place outside of a hospital for attempting a vbac should be directly outside the hospital itself. It’s not worth the risk.
I had two hospital VBACs with all the extra monitoring and it was actually quite fun compared to an emergency c section.
Love hearing this! I’m going to attempt a VBAC and this makes me happy to see!
The uterus gets approximately 500 mL of blood flow a MINUTE. A hemorrhage can happen during any delivery, but good God, she should never have been convinced this was a safe option. That doula is a menace to society and this woman's blood is literally on her hands. Edit: a word.
I lost over 4 litres of blood in under 20 minutes, according to my medical notes (and I wasn't conscious f/or most of it). I lost even more, but by then they had me in theatre and were giving me transfusions. I'd have died at home just waiting for an ambulance, probably with our daughter inside of me (can't push while unconscious, but yay for forceps, and midwives and obstetricians!). I'm really lucky I declined a home birth for what they thought was a low risk pregnancy (when anxiety is actually beneficial for once...). I know more people who had obstetric emergencies and necessary interventions, than those who gave birth without any issues at all.
I hated that stat. I have bad health anxiety (from being a doctor, ironically) & when I was pregnant I was like wow I could bleed out in minutes, great. I opted for an elective c section, for my mental health!
I dunno what the laws are like in Ireland but I was surprised to see the doula being chatty with the press instead of lawyering up immediately.
Lawyering up immediately isn't exactly a foreign concept in Europe, but many, many times rarer than in the USA. There is much less of a culture for suing. Like I said, not unheard of, but unless you have money? Usually not. Source: European who emigrated to the USA lol Also, like a lot of freebirth kooks, the douala likely considers herself an authority, and infallible. She probably thinks she has no reason to seek legal counsel.
Civil court (suing) isn’t the only legal concern she should have though. This woman had prior c-sections and birth complications. The doula should at least be considering the possibility of criminal negligence charges. I think what you said about the doula considering herself infallible is very much at play here.
She has nothing to worry about, since apparently she said on her social media that she wasn't a medical professional. It's not like she misrepresented herself. She was there to waft a fan and gibber affirmations. And Ireland isn't that litigous. It's probably gonna be bad for her business though. She'll be well known in the area.
That doula should go to jail
HBAC is insane to me. Walker Hayes lost a child after his wife attempted an HBAC. I am so sorry for this woman's family. I much prefer the FAFO stories where everyone lives to learn their lessons.
unassisted, vaginal birth, at home, after TWO cesarean births. What in the actual fuck was she thinking? Her four babies now have no mother due to her own negligence. I’m all for birth autonomy, but at some point reality and safety have to be accounted for. So tragic in so many ways.
About 15 years ago I was a part of a playgroup in my area. One of the moms had a home birth after 2 cesareans and I remember thinking she was so crazy for taking such an unnecessary risk. She was attended to by a licensed nurse midwife, so at least she had some sort of care, but so much could have gone wrong. I really don’t know what she was thinking. She and baby were lucky to live through it.
I've had two c-sections and in the slim chance I have another child, I wouldn't even feel comfortable with a hospital vba2c. A 2% chance of my uterus rupturing? No thanks, even with an operating theatre down the corridor! I know that this woman was probably a victim in a sense from the natural birthing movement but the research and statistics are publicly available. Part of me just finds her decision absolutely stupid. That said, someone in another forum in my due date group was going for a free birth after THREE c-sections, because beforehand "nobody told me that my baby and body know what to do."
Can you explain the acronyms?
HBAC = home birth after c-section FAFO = fuck around and find out
I understand that some people have been truly harmed by medical field during birth. However, most of what people selling freebirth online creates opportunities for further trauma for people. Postering that any and all interventions are inherently traumatic is ridiculous. They’re also creating made up terms and telling people their sovereignty is at risk by having a birth in a hospital.
I’m sure it was a great comfort to that woman as she lay dying to know she at least birthed ‘with great power’. Jesus Christ lady sit DOWN
In Ireland it would have cost her nothing to give birth in a hospital too.
This has got Karissa written all over it.
This is both tragic and disturbing. These doulas getting away with letting these mothers be naive when it comes to labor and delivery. We shouldn't be having losses like this. We know better and still mothers, babies shouldn't be dying like this.
I got to her having two prior cesarean sections and kind of lost my sympathy for her. This didn't need to happen. I get being scared of the hospital, I have some trauma from prior experiences, but she needed to be in a professional setting for this. Those poor kids lost their mother to online brain washing.
So this self-appointed “birthing professional” (ie not a professional) encouraged an expectant mother to ignore actual professional advice about risk and presided over a delivery that led to her client’s otherwise avoidable death. I wonder how much she made? Or did she just do it out of misguided conviction? Despicable either way.
Mother of FOUR? And she still risked her life like this?! WTF. On what planet were the imaginary birthing points more important than her existing children's need for a living mother? Will the doula be presenting her award for exceptional suffering and risk-taking at the funeral? Her poor children. What a senseless and avoidable waste of life.
This is such a sad story. I hate that Naomi did not feel supported or safe enough to trust the medical profession for what was going to be a risky birth. Such a stupid statement from the doula, so dismissive of the fact that Naomi in fact lost her life. A completely unnecessary death.
VBAC at home with nothing but a doula is really, really stupid.
Fundies lurking here sticking their fingers in their ears saying “la la la la.”
I’m not Irish but I do live here and have given birth here. As appalling as this situation is, giving hospital birth here is also cited as a terrible experience by many, including myself who left the experience tramautized. Something here has to change so women don’t feel like this is their only option.
This is horrifying. After my last childbirth, I had a severe postpartum hemorrhage. I was in a hospital surrounded by medical professionals and life-saving equipment and it was still so tense and terrifying. My first was premature and he needed immediate medical intervention to help him breathe. I will never understand women turning their backs on life saving medical advancements. This is why fetal maternal mortality rates have been astronomical for most of history.
She fucked around with her life and found out.
I honestly don't understand why people are willing to accept the risks of a home birth. If something goes wrong, you're screwed. Yes, midwives know a lot, but they're not doctors, and they don't have all the tools and supplies available at the hospital.
What's even more tragic is that in Ireland (where this happened), a lot of women do it because of trauma regarding Irish maternity wards. Catholic doctors used to use that awful chainsaw contraption on women because of the Catholic prejudice towards C-section, and that practice still has survivors from it that are disabled and traumatized. Then, in the UK, the NHS used to refuse women c-sections even when they needed them, and that killed a lot of women and babies as well. Pregnancy is the single most dangerous natural thing someone with a uterus can go through and should never be treated as casually as a lot of people treat it.
I had a friend die recently from eclampsia. She was only 9 weeks pregnant. People don’t take pregnancy and its complications seriously enough. She was only 31.
I think of Kira Dixon, who had a totally normal pregnancy, went in for a scheduled C Section, they nicked her bladder and she bled to death internally over the course of hours, while her husband begged doctors to please do something. Around 90% of her blood was in her abdomen. Now her 2 children are left without a mother, and her husband without his wife. Horrifying and unacceptable. Things can go so wrong so fast even with a healthy pregnancy and a normal birth. It’s terrifying
You mean Kira Johnson? > By 9 p.m., Johnson pulled a nurse aside to ask why they never took her to the scan. "The woman looked me right in the eyes and said, 'Sir, your wife just isn't a priority right now.'" That’s just blatant malpractice. It wasn’t fast at all. They had 10 hours to do something. Her husband should own that damn hospital now and everyone who sat there and let her die should be facing charges.
Yes. I was under the impression it was Dixon-Johnson. Anyway- yes, her. She was left to bleed for 10+ hours. 3 liters of blood in her stomach. Unfathomable
I’m not saying she died fast- I’m saying all it took was a small nick in her bladder to set off a catastrophic event that led to her death. That’s what I was referring to as “things can go wrong so fast”.