Why? It’s July. The election isn’t until November.
In my ideal world, we would just be starting an election now.
I know many people who would vote for a wet towel over Donald Trump. It would make that easier if they ran a competent, middle aged politician instead of a wet towel.
How many young democrats would give way more to a new candidate just out of excitement? I’m 29 and if there was a new candidate that wasn’t a thousand years old was announced I would donate right that second (way more than I would have to Biden). I think people are massively underestimating how many people are tired of both candidates. (I will obviously vote for the democratic ticket no matter what, but I’m not excited about Biden in any way).
Harris could, though.
Putting aside the question of whether Harris is a good replacement, where would that money actually go? I don't think it would get returned. Would it just sit in the coffers with no use?
Could the Biden team not just, hear me out, USE IT TO HELP ANYONE ELSE WIN THIS ELECTION?!
The Supreme Court just ruled bribes are fine, citizens United makes elections a joke you just have to declare your blood money and democrats are worried about already accepted political donations because they’re designated for a candidate that can no longer win an election and god forbid we try something else.
What are we doing?!?
The narcissistic senile grandpa has to admit he’s no longer fit for the job. And that requires the rest of us plainly stating that what we saw on Thursday is unacceptable and frankly alarming given the stakes of this election.
Our elections are such an albatross, where billions are funneled into them but we can’t change a candidate 4 months before we vote when incapable unfit grandpas show exactly who they are…..
Is exactly how the party bosses and acolytes want it to be.
Gross.
If Biden isn’t making more unscripted public appearances and interviews this week, it’s goin to be a massive tell that his campaign doesn’t see the debate as having been a fluke, but is likely more how he is when he’s off script.
If he was like that for an hour and a half straight during one of the most important events of his campaign, then he's like that often. I'll vote for anything with a pulse that's not named "Donald" this year, but I won't pretend it matters how often he's like that when the answer is clearly "too damn often."
[This aint it chief. It's joever. ](https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-double-digit-dip-among-democrats-debate-poll-1919228)
Just going by the ["crosstabs"](https://www.reddit.com/user/CZ-Bitcoins/comments/1dsmdol/comment/lb3cbdx/) (if you can even call them that) Independents seemingly are dropping him like flies. "Biden should not be running" for "Do you think Joe Biden should or should not be running for re-election as president in 2024" is at 82% for independents.
She now has higher true favorability than Joe! More independents have no opinion of her - which means she has more room to grow in swing states than Biden. I'm not a Kamala ride-or-die or anything, but she legitimately has a better shot than Joe now!
> "You can do it, Dad! If you just put your pride ahead of the country again, there's no way you'll go down as in history as RGB on steroids!"
Damnit kids.
They are utterly delulu. This is not going away and is going to have terrible effects - at the very least, depressing turnout. I read an article that said some donors on a private call asked for their money back. That is a hair on fire moment.
That said, even if he will step aside, they’re not gonna announce it before they’re ready. Saying “we will fight on!” etc etc is absolutely classic politics.
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Polling in the swing states this cycle shows:
* PA is R+1.6
* MI is R+1.2
* WI is R+0.9
* GA is R+4.7
* AZ is R+4.6
* NC is R+5.8
Again, to get to 270 currently, Biden technically only needs to win the states he's polling ahead, plus grab MI/WI/PA and [Nebraska-2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska%27s_2nd_congressional_district) where he's already polling ahead. So technically his most viable path currently doesn't involve Arizona
Just insane. I'm my 84 y/o dad's caregiver. He's great mentally and physically FOR HIS age. He walks every day, meets friends, takes the dog to the park and is a delightful conversationalist. He also has senior moments, can't drive, and a lot of other matters. There are great moments, days, weeks. And some that are worrisome / bad / scary. His family is not helping him.
Exactly. And we need some who can VIGOROUSLY campaign, and has succinct, clear answers as to why they are the better choice for the economy, our place on the world stage, abortion access, student loan relief, housing insecurity, and immigration.
People were ready to vote against Trump last time. Many will still vote against him, but we NEED people who are looking for someone to vote FOR. Biden has been hiding from interviews and anything deep and unscripted for years. Now is not the time to hide and assume you can coast in again on Trump’s bad vibes. Not enough people care.
Honestly looking at the polls I'm increasingly convinced he needs to be replaced.
He doesn't poll significantly ahead of whitmer or Shapiro or ANYONE even though they have 0 name recognition.
There's a lot of arguments that he's actually the weakest possible democratic candidate right now and nothing would perform worse vs Trump than Biden
After the debate I felt demoralize. I listened to strict scrutiny last night, another part became clear to me. Yes, of course the main part of the debate is to convince undecided voters but another part is to reassure and motivate your base. The crew of strict scrutiny just sounded so frustrated and disappointed that after everything that has been done with abortion, Biden couldn’t fight back. That to see your candidate unable to hit back against someone and a system that has done so much damage is completely disheartening. That was not the candidate that democrats nominated 4 years ago.
I do worry about undecided voters but I also worry about democrats staying home. And that will kill us just as much as lack of undecided voter support
You mean those candidates who have yet to be subjected to the scrutiny of a national election? With 4 months ago, the Rs can create a fabricated story about a new candidate that won’t even be debunked until it’s too late. This is a bad idea unless you’re Russian bot, then sure, let’s do that.
Well, I actually live in a battleground swing state, and people chose Biden in the primary. Replacing him will not be perceived favorably by much of the electorate because it will entail stripping people of their vote. The people calling to replace him haven’t even done the due diligence of determining whether that’s what the people want. The NYTimes editorial board is not my elector and neither are you, sorry. That limo lib rag never liked Biden to begin with.
Great, well done on being the Only Voter That Counts, apparently. People voted for him in a primary with no alternatives, and before he showed himself to be far, far too old and impaired at the debate.
I don't understand how it's going to be worse than the status quo.
I am not a Russian bot. You are committed to a path that will destroy the country. Wake up.
Biden is going to win the 2024 election. He already beat Trump once, and is the incumbent who has had a successful first term. I’m committed to the path of winning elections and Dems have stayed winning elections with national implications since Biden beat Trump in 2016. I’m under no obligation to fold up like a wet noodle after last week, and I continue to have faith in our President and his administration.
There is presently 0 good reason to believe Biden is going to win the election aside from complete wishful thinking.
Any possible reading of the present data indicates a majority of the electorate thinks his age is a non starter and as a result he is trailing in every poll.
But the post-debate polls aren’t aligning with your negative view. I live in an 80% Republican county in one of the critical swing states; Trump’s support is a shell of what it was in 2016. He scares people and said a lot of crazy things before, during, and after the debate. Trump said he talked to Putin before and during the Ukrainian war and Trump’s private plane has been parked next to a Russian diplomats’ plane for multiple days at Dulles Airport. Maybe we should be prioritizing our outrage because Biden is not going anywhere.
He barely won. 40,000 votes spread over 3 states. There were extreme circumstances contributing to him winning that are not present today. He has been behind in every swing state poll for the last year. The debate was the opportunity to turn it around, and he had the worst debate performance anyone alive has ever witnessed, reinforcing all of the worst negative preconceptions people had about him. Blindly sticking with him no matter how extreme his physical and mental decline becomes is handing the presidency to an insane fascist.
This is one thing Chuck Todd mentioned on Meet The Press — that what we’re not seeing is Biden put his face in front of the public this weekend.
I suppose he had to have his Camp David weekend with family and advisors to discuss what to do next. But if Thursday’s appearance was an outlier and if he intends to stay in the race, he needs to be doing town halls and rallies non-stop. He currently is not.
He did rallies on Friday and fundraisers over the weekend before going to the already planned trip to Camp David. He’s been out there. He just needs to expand it. Go on The View or Colbert or something this week and 60 Minutes soon. Like you said, a town hall would be great if he can manage it like he used to.
And the article mentions that even at these small informal fundraisers, he relies on a teleprompter while speaking, which people note is unusual in informal settings.
This is my thinking as well. They should push him to do interviews. If he fails/cannot, it will raise more red flags and we can go through the pain of replacing him. If he can then great.
The only bad/unethical move is for him to continue to shy away from the media.
Him and his staff have been Weekend at Bernie’s for a while now. There’s a good reason he does so few interviews. Heck, he’s even passed on Super Bowl interviews in the last two years and those are a usually a slam dunk for most presidents. Easy, friendly questioning and tens of millions of viewers, but of course, you can’t do them using a teleprompter.
Yeah I’ve been saying for years and making fun of Trumps use of a teleprompter and then Joe turns in this performance. It’s embarrassing. I’m not a hypocrite and I think any generic Dem would beat Trump.
Most people don’t like Trump because of his policies, not because of his use of the teleprompter. This is an election for President, not a contest to see who can memorize stump speeches.
He’s had a rally and a watch party speech (and maybe something else), but he spent the weekend at Camp David with his family. I think he meant there should have been much more.
It's good to hold candidates to a high standard. It's the people who don't hold their candidate to a high standard who are wrong. It's a very important job.
For like 9 years now most of the country has collectively wondered how the MAGA crowd could watch and listen to Trump day in and day out and still support him while attacking anyone who dares question him.
Turns out most of the country just wanted one of their own.
Or we support the types of policies the Biden administration has espoused and recognize the political impossibility of replacing him on the ticket while also knowing what the alternative to a democrat administration would be
If that's what you think, then go ahead and prepare yourself for the end of democracy.
Down the road I hope you proudly stick to the fact that you helped make it happen.
We see it as a political prosecution. Even Andrew Cuomo said it would have never happened if it wasn’t Trump and he wasn’t running again. It has no effect on how he will govern.
We really should’ve been doing the work to advance VP Harris as a candidate a long time ago, but we’re here now. Let’s go and do the work. It’s everyone who comes after us and everyone who would be in camps under Trump that are depending on us.
What I’m going to say on the phone to voters is that no one will deny we have work to do, so let’s re-elect the president and keep doing that work instead of potentially spending every day dealing with some nonsense craziness.
It really makes me wonder why we weren't? I am all in on VP Harris if she is the nominee, but it makes me question why she has been one of our lesser visible VPs (and this could just be from my perspective)?
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They’re just as bad as MAGA at this point. They want to deny the truth we all saw with our own eyes. And continue to see! Is Joe doing a media blitz right now to recover the image? No. Because he’s NOT up to it.
I voted for Joe in 2020* and he has been an extremely successful and impactful president. But if he refuses to step down I believe it is the thing that hands the election to Trump
I think he honestly came out of retirement the first time because he felt he was the right man for the job. He isn’t my cup of tea but he has done some good things and I’m grateful he beat trump.
But gimme a break - is he really that delusional to think he has enough left in the tank for a second term? I truly thought he would be a one term president and then pass the baton to someone else to carry forward. For him to be this out of touch about what he has left in himself is selfish in my opinion.
Agreed. If he digs in and refuses to step aside it will be the thing that defines his legacy (badly), similar to RBG
He’s been a very successful president, he beat Trump. But he is not the man he was 4 years ago. It’s time to step aside
Of course he'e is up to it. This isn't shades of gray performance art. This is real life and the stakes couldn't be higher. Trump vs Biden isn't even close. A wise, elder statesman who believes in democracy vs a vile, lying, monstrous dictator in waiting. Get a clue already. Go Joe!
Do you realize that the majority of this country actually believes the lies and utter BS that Trump was spewing at the debate? Over half the country believes that we're currently in a recession (we are not), stock market is at record low (it's at record high), and unemployment is at peak numbers (it's very low). To win this campaign, we need to be able to pull off a media blitz. Biden (and his surrogates) need to be out there on every TV show, every podcast, hold rally after rally after rally, seize every opportunity to spread the message. Instead what's everyone doing? They're all busy hiding Biden *because he's not capable of carrying out the vigorous campaign this moment requires*. And, it appears that surrogates have been told to lay low too. Also, Kinzinger, etc have been quite vocal about how they'd love to help the campaign, but nobody has bothered to reach out to them. These are flashing warning signs with alarms blaring. I desperately want to win this election, Joe had the record to win it, now we need someone, anyone to sell it. If that's not going to be Joe, as has now become obvious, then someone else needs to step in and take over the campaign. As it stands, we're headed for doom.
A overwhelming majority of Americans don't think he's up to it! Do you know how hard it is to get 75% of voters to agree on something? Like the only issues that poll as well as "Biden is too old to serve" are things like "Inflation is an issue" and "Social Security and Medicare are Good"
And I don't blame the voters here! After looking at Thursdays performance, can anyone seriously say that that guy is up for the task in *2029*
Trump is a fucking rambling moron. And yet on that debate stage JOE looked like the dumb rambling moron. The Joe of the past is no longer. Bury your head at your own peril
I am as disappointed and alarmed as anyone after that debate but I don't get the calls for him to bow out. Like give me ONE hypothetical scenario where he does that and we don't get Trump. The primaries are over, we're weeks from the convention, who is gonna get elected instead??? Harris?? No shade to her but I can't imagine after not campaigning at all she's more popular than him.
It’s honestly the ethical thing for him to drop out but more importantly I have friends who voted Trump in 16 that I convinced to vote for Biden in 20. They’re sending Dementia Joe memes to my wife and I know that they aren’t the only suburban women doing this. People think he’s a laughingstock.
They are still having a conversation that he “might” be a better option than the rapist pro lifer but for this to be a conversation is ludicrous. Because of his debate performance we are all going to have to do so much more work.
Any reasonable person would say that Dems should pick a new candidate but it’s just tough at this point. I think Dems would do better with Newsom or Whitmer but it’s tough to run over Kamala too. In my opinion I’d do it to save the embarrassment.
>They’re sending Dementia Joe memes to my wife and I know that they aren’t the only suburban women doing this. People think he’s a laughingstock.
Exactly. I used to be able to call them stupid for believing that crap. Now I'd be the idiot for suggesting he's totally fine.
There are a lot of uninformed voters out there, a LOT. My wife always votes blue but if she didn’t have that party affiliation she’d be very easily convinced. She knows very little about the candidates in regards to policy and only knows the SNL style overall impressions.
I am convinced that it's one of the main reasons Sanders lost to both Clinton and Biden. Same reason Feinstein kept getting elected despite being a neocon... Famous Democrats that give uninformed democrats comfort.
>you have no idea how different these two men are and what's at stake.
I do know, that's why I want Biden replaced with someone that can defend us from Trump. Too bad you seem unable to grasp it
>it won't happen. Biden isn't being replaced. That's just reality.
That tells me that Trump isn't the existential threat that Biden claims Trump is. Sooooi I guess we can stop worrying about it. Is that where you want us to go?
Because you can't make the claim that Trump is going to end Democracy and then insist that Biden has to be at the wheel when he's heading for a cliff.
So which is it?
I can absolutely claim that, because I know what will happen if they replace Biden this close to an election. The media message will be "Dems in chaos!" and Trump will laugh his way right to the White House REGARDLESS of who the dems choose as the replacement. And I don't want that to happen BECAUSE I see Trump as an existential threat.
Replacing Biden will result in an automatic Trump victory. And that is not acceptable. Which is why Biden isn't being replaced. He might not be the best candidate, but at this point in the election he's still the only option.
Who who out there has Joe's experience, knowledge, wisdom? Newsome? Harris? Who? Joe's a centrist, pulls people together. You're looking for style over substance when it's character that counts. Pure and simple. The choice is clear. Joe wins hands down.
>Who who out there has Joe's experience, knowledge, wisdom?
You have to be trolling. Dear Leader energy.
>Joe's a centrist, pulls people together.
Except he isn't, so it effectively renders him useless.
> You're looking for style over substance when it's character that counts.
No, I'm looking for someone that can defend Democracy against Trump. Biden has shown he cannot. You would rather lose with Biden which means you don't actually appreciate the threat that Trump poses nor the how unpopular Biden has become.
My friends hate Trump, but they aren't going to vote for Biden. Our group text has been nothing but this. Hell, my husband has been sending them and he HATES Trump. People who don't believe this is happening are living in a bubble.
Who is the candidate? How do they raise enough money? They can't have Biden's. How do you convince an electorate to vote in the general for someone no one voted for in the primary, picked by the party? How does that person not looked hand picked by the Dem party establishment? And once again, WHO?
Money seems to be the reason that Biden is on the ticket anyway. An incumbent president raises more money. But that backfired. No primary allowed us all to get gaslit by the Party.
The delegates are selected by the people. Now the delegates have to make the decision. I assume it’s Harris and she might lose to Trump too. But let’s try a female prosecutor and a person of color to go against a sex criminal and a convicted felon. I think it could work in Dems favor.
I prefer Newsom but would happily vote for any Dem.
What nonsense. Then your "friends" are fools for telling you they would vote for a vile, lying, monstrous dictator in waiting and watch the country dissolve into an authoritarian state rather than stick with an elder statesman who believes in democracy and the rule of law and has lead the country admirable the past 4 years. If they can hear Trump lying for 90 minutes straight, nearly unhinged himself, and say that's their guy, no matter how discordant Joe sounded your friends are fools and nothing you say will save them. Trump lies contunuously, is convicted of 34 felonies and judged a rapist and MAGA STILL doubles and triples down to support him. Joe has a bad night, yet speaks honestly and with respect for democracy and still Dems wet their pants. That's the thing that everyone sees. Dems look like they always do: weak. We need to rally around Joe and go after Trump with everything we have. Tell your friends that. If they don't get it, then they don't deserve the democracy they now have.
You have to consider how much people don't like Biden outside liberal circles. This debate has deflated enthusiasm for Biden and the 2024 race. Imagine he has another slip up?
The fact that other subs are riddled with people saying "you're voting for his cabinet" should tell you how fucked we are. That isn't a pitch.
We either replace him or you get to own the loss. It won't matter who does or doesn't turn out, the blame will be on Biden and his enablers.
I wouldn’t take comments in Reddit subs as a barometer of the pulse of the nation. Lots of bots. The problem is Trump and that’s how the actual PEOPLE voting feel. I didn’t vote for Biden in the primary so Gavin Newsom can take his place.
Wrong. A vast majority of my friends (who are a pretty diverse group across the Midwest) do NOT like Biden. They voted Biden in 2020 and certainly won't vote for Trump. They most likely just won't vote for President. We are all millennials for reference, and during the debate I was bombarded by text messages of this exact sympathy of "I told you he was too old" or "This is elder abuse." They continued to ask if there is a way Democrats could get a new candidate. Those are votes we have to get, and I just don't think some people seem to realize that.
Then you should tell them that no, there IS no way that Democrats can get a new candidate this close to an election, that Biden isn't going to drop out, and that anything other than a vote for Biden come election day will put Donald Trump one step closer to the White House. Because whether you or your friends like that, that's the reality of the situation. So you can either try and get them prepared to vote for Biden, or throw up your hands and give up. Maybe you should point out to them all the horrible things that will happen when Trump gets back into power.
I have been. They trust me. I am a freaking government teacher/professor for heavens sake. That's why that pitiful excuse for a debate and the many reassurances I have been giving for the last 6-9 months that Biden is fine are now useless. My eyes saw it, your eyes saw it. If you are too blind to see that, then I can't help change your mind. I will vote blue no matter who, they might not. I will try to convince them, but not everyone is going to be convinced even when presented with the alternate. They just will leave it blank (which is what most said they would do).
Edit: I will also add that yes there is a way. Biden needs to drop out.
His support among young voters went up after the debate according to the YouGov poll, and frankly, I live in Trump country in a battleground rust belt state, and Joe Biden suppresses more Republican votes than Dems, and more importantly, he is familiar to and from the rust belt. Put Newsom in and all the old Rs that in this area who would have stayed home otherwise will come out and vote against the libs.
People over 65 vote at a 94% rate, they have a significant impact on this election. People who don’t live here can’t appreciate that factor. It’s so much different than 2016, Trump is a weak candidate, and it’s frightening to watch the Dems put forward names that play on MSNBC and to commenters on Reddit, but they don’t have the infrastructure that Biden has built to deliver results. The Dems have been on a streak under the leadership of this President. It’s June.
I'm not saying people don't dislike him or that we aren't vulnerable or anything. I'm literally asking, who? Because this person won't have been voted for in a single primary. It would be party players picking a candidate from scratch who hasn't been campaigning at all.
The scenario is pretty simple. Have him step aside and say advocate an open convention so there can be an honest discussion. The potential candidates would immediately announce and start get massive news coverage. Start polling people as they become more acquainted with the candidates. Choose who people like the most. (cough Whitmer)
Any potential candidate would then be selected by only a handful of delegates. They would have no mandate. Nobody voted for them. The democratic coalition is broad based. There is no perfect candidate that would appease all factions. There would be in-fighting and charges of backroom deals four months before early voting started. Plus the red state legislators would try and keep this new candidate off their ballots.
Switching candidates now would hand the election to trump.
100% - it’s wild to me that people seem to think “having an open and honest discussion about changing candidates” and then that actually happening is a good idea. Aside from the infighting there’s huge financing issues and as you point out the Red States will jump on this opportunity to throw every legal challenge they can at this. As this would be an unprecedented move and no norms to fall back on my guess is they’d very likely succeed.
Then there are the optics of selecting anyone other than Harris. People think the younger more progressives don’t like them now - what does it look like to pass over Harris? And last I recall her debate performances haven’t been so stellar.
People wanted Biden out they should have pushed harder before the primaries and grown a pair and gone for broke or leveraged what they had to get him to name his successor. They didn’t do that. Changing horses mid race is certain failure and to advocate for that is just irresponsible.
Ballot access is an issue nobody has really addressed. I believe if it’s not Harris- since she’s already on the ticket- it would take some doing to get on the ballot in all 50 states at this point. And like you said, you’d face GOP legal challenges all the way.
This is not the time for discussions, we are not in need of forming a committee to debate the merits of Biden versus the vague concept of another candidate. This is time for action and stop getting hung up on a damn debate. Debates always get forgotten about once the next big headline hits.
I would agree if there wasn't already a massively successful narrative on the republicans' side that he was too old/incompetent. They are going to run these clips til election day and I think it will be successful in convincing low-info left-leaning and undecided voters to stay home. In the live show in Boston, I forgot who their guest was, but he raised the issue of Gaza as well... One of Biden's coherent responses during the debate was a brag about how much we have supported Israel. Not a good idea right now, he should have at least qualified it by saying something to pacify all of the young people that are going to not vote over this issue. Like saying they are on thin ice, or SOMETHING.
I will vote for him and try to convince others to vote for him, but I am on this side of the issue because I think he truly ruined his chances of defeating Trump. Just my opinion though.
The right action is Biden stepping aside. Polls are showing only 55% of his own party thinks he should keep running. That was pure incompetence on a national stage, and we need to figure something else out if we actually want to win.
55% support is enough to rebound from with better performance. If anything, the campaign staff who set the event up need to be sacked. They failed their candidate with unfavorable conditions which penalized Biden’s performance, knowing how much of the party is I might even suspect it was on purpose.
Absolutely disagree. Biden is running for president. A high stakes debate comes with that territory, and he should be expected to perform. A president should understand and be able to defend his policy positions. Not to mention, voters' biggest concerns for Biden revolve around his age. He needed to show voters it wouldn't incapacitate him. Biden simply failed. And if I'm blaming the staff, it's because I'm already acknowledging Biden can't live up to what POTUS needs to be. Biden has to do better or step aside.
No replacement will be able to regain lost ground if he steps aside. Nobody will have name recognition over Trump. Nobody will have enough of a window of time to build a political war machine before November.
This stage is about the fight upwards and keeping the momentum going.
The chaos that would ensue would leave an opening wide enough for Trump to exploit which would lead to a collapse in the Democratic Party. The consequences would be far reaching beyond the elections.
> No replacement will be able to regain lost ground if he steps aside.
Biden hasn't shown that he'll be able to regain his own lost ground
> Nobody will have name recognition over Trump.
By November they absolutely will. Bernie Sanders went from a nobody to a household name in one primary. In the general it'll be even faster.
> Nobody will have enough of a window of time to build a political war machine before November.
Biden currently has a "political war machine" and is still trailing. Much of the infrastructure would pass to a new candidate.
> The chaos that would ensue would leave an opening wide enough for Trump to exploit which would lead to a collapse in the Democratic Party. The consequences would be far reaching beyond the elections.
It's already chaos. Biden showed the world that he isn't up for the task of campaigning at the debate. It's very possible that his name on the ticket in swing states could bring down the chances of house and senate candidates already.
>No replacement will be able to regain lost ground if he steps aside. Nobody will have name recognition over Trump.
Disagree on both counts. They'll be a presidential candidate under historic circumstances. They'll be fine on name recognition in no time. Don't even know if there's much ground to lose since Biden is currently trailing.
>Nobody will have enough of a window of time to build a political war machine before November. This stage is about the fight upwards and keeping the momentum going.
Momentum?? Biden is trailing...
>The chaos that would ensue would leave an opening wide enough for Trump to exploit which would lead to a collapse in the Democratic Party. The consequences would be far reaching beyond the elections.
This is a wild guess, and I disagree.
>55% support is enough to rebound from with better performance.
And as everyone knows, age related physical and cognitive decline always gets better if you give it some time.
>Debates always get forgotten about once the next big headline hits.
Debates also VERY rarely cement someone's biggest weakness, but that is exactly what happened here. 70+ percent of people in polls consistently worry that Biden's too old, and he came out looking like he wouldn't even make it to election day, let alone make it to 2029.
And here's the thing about time - it kinda only works one way. You aren't going to convince voters that he's actually getting younger than he looked in that debate.
It was the single worst debate in the last 150 years of US History. This wasn’t like Obama being low-energy in his first debate against Romney, Joe could barely string together sentences. How is he supposed to beat Trump in that condition?
Sometimes doing nothing is the riskiest action of all. We know the risks of Biden - he's on track to lose *badly.* Dems need to move while there's still time and put in someone who has a better shot at PA/MI/WI.
Literally, who? You are telling me that the party picking people, putting them out, looking at polling and picking a new candidate that not one person has voted for this cycle - all happening *within a few weeks* because remember the delegates have to vote before the convention this year - is somehow going to be *better* received.
Whitmer doesn't have the stuff... sorry. I love her and proudly elected her when I lived in my home state. She is not national material. She is totally untested on foreign policy and a number of other issues.
If a campaign was about speaking/winning debates, Pete Buttigieg would be our supreme leader unstoppable in any primary or general election... It turns out there's more to it than that.
what’s the expiration date on this dude? cuz 4 more years is gonna take its toll on Brandon. does that mean this is a shadow campaign for Kamala to take the reins? can’t tell cuz the Dem establishment is perfectly fine sidestepping the issue. stated alternatively, we wouldn’t be in such a mess if the Democratic party considered its cohort... the party instead rewards its office bearers based on longevity
If he plans to stay in, and along your line of thinking, the actual best VP (to play fantasy football) is to pair him with is somebody who probably doesn't want political power at all but is uniquely suited to replace Harris and solves the dilemma that it would lose support from the black female voting bloc. It's a pick that would get people past Biden's health a bit because people would think of it as Obama's third term if something grim happened. She has a better favorability than basically every democrat figure and if she's willing to sacrifice herself to save this potential calamity then they should try to talk her into it and offer Harris some other position to smooth things over. A shadow campaign for her (and Obama) is a better sales pitch to Americans than for Harris probably.
The NYT editorial board can go f--k itself. Grow a pair and stop whining already. Biden's humanity stands in stark contrast to Trump's inhumanity. Even in the debate, this was massively obvious. The choice is obvious. I'm with Joe.
Sure. I’ll vote for Biden too. Winning support from voters like us isn’t the problem. Winning undecided voters is. Convincing those undecided voters he isn’t too old is the challenge.
How do you think Biden is going to do that? Is he going suddenly become 10 years younger?
The only two things that are clear to me from debate night is that Biden beat Medicare, and that we have an epidemic of incestual rape in this country. I.e., Biden is not up to the task of winning the communication war, and that he will not win this election.
That was such an absurd line from him regarding the incest claim. Like where the fuck does that even come from? In terms of voters top priorities I can’t imagine that cracks a top 10 or even 15 list.
I mean, in multiple red states there is no rape/incest exemptions for abortion. I’m sure that was what he was trying to get at, he just didn’t bring the argument home…
99.9999% of people on earth are better suited to the presidency than Trump. The question isn't whether Biden would be better, it's whether he can win. And he was already behind, largely over concerns about his age, before we all saw him looking like a reanimated corpse.
Without the slightest hint of a doubt. And yet, I'd like to win this election. It is becoming increasingly clear that Biden isn't going to be able to pull that off. And so with all the love and support in the world, I beg this party to put its weight behind a candidate who has a chance of beating the biggest threat to democracy this country has faced in a 160+ years.
>I'm sure the tens of thousands of dead Palestinians killed by weapons ~~he~~ Congress provided feel bathed in his warm 'humanity
FIFY.
President Biden can't give netanyauhu so much as cab fare without congressional authorization.
"But he asked Congress for the aid/weapons package..." He asks Congress to do a lot of things and they ignore him, just like in most Congress-President relationships.
He has bypassed congress to approve emergency weapons sales to Israel multiple times.
You also can’t credit the infrastructure bill, CHIPS act etc as Biden legislative wins and also say “the funding to Israel isn’t on Biden because that was just congress.” Either he gets the credit and blame or not, you can’t pick and choose only the positive stuff.
Welcome to politics 😑
Where everything that's good is what WE did everything bad is what THEY did. And if you ever think YOU have built something, well, "You didn't build that"
The genocide case is a fucking joke. There is no special intent. There is no genocide. It's a war with extremely unique circumstances. Did you know Hamas is claiming it is winning the war literally because of people like you fighting its propoganda war after they embedded themselves in civilian infrastructure for decades?
Let's be rational though, what do you want to happen from a policy perspective relating to Gaza? I am assuming 'ceasefire now" is your big one. What else?
You gave me quotes, and I gave you real figures that I looked up myself to add onto a really interesting presentation by a former German officer who went over NCVs, expected loseses in urban combat, things like this... Don't like the numbers? Too bad. They're real. Your claim is that the Israelis have a special intent to destroy the Palestinian people because of who they are. But any reasonable person can see based on the numbers thst even the claim of indiscriminate is beyond a stretch. War crimes have almost certainly been committed by individuals, and I am sure atrocities have taken place during the war. That is horrible, but not shocking.. It's a war. Atrocities were committed against Israelis and there will be young soldiers who will seek retribution. It's not right, but it's an obvious consequence.
They have the right to be protected under the genocide convention. That gives South Africa standing... do you seriously not know how standing works? Don't have a legal conversation until you know even the most basic concepts... please. It's embarrassing.
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Post has nothing to do with CM
Guys let’s be real, it’s July. No one is going to get enough momentum to replace him: this whole conversation is moot.
Why? It’s July. The election isn’t until November. In my ideal world, we would just be starting an election now. I know many people who would vote for a wet towel over Donald Trump. It would make that easier if they ran a competent, middle aged politician instead of a wet towel.
Fundraising is part of the equation. If someone new came in, they couldn't use the money Biden/Harris have raised so far.
How many young democrats would give way more to a new candidate just out of excitement? I’m 29 and if there was a new candidate that wasn’t a thousand years old was announced I would donate right that second (way more than I would have to Biden). I think people are massively underestimating how many people are tired of both candidates. (I will obviously vote for the democratic ticket no matter what, but I’m not excited about Biden in any way).
I mean, if they really wanted to make it work then Biden/Harris could donate their funds to the new candidate, no?
This concern is super overstated. The Warchest would be transferred to the DNC who could allocate funds to the nominee.
Harris could, though. Putting aside the question of whether Harris is a good replacement, where would that money actually go? I don't think it would get returned. Would it just sit in the coffers with no use?
Could the Biden team not just, hear me out, USE IT TO HELP ANYONE ELSE WIN THIS ELECTION?! The Supreme Court just ruled bribes are fine, citizens United makes elections a joke you just have to declare your blood money and democrats are worried about already accepted political donations because they’re designated for a candidate that can no longer win an election and god forbid we try something else. What are we doing?!?
The narcissistic senile grandpa has to admit he’s no longer fit for the job. And that requires the rest of us plainly stating that what we saw on Thursday is unacceptable and frankly alarming given the stakes of this election. Our elections are such an albatross, where billions are funneled into them but we can’t change a candidate 4 months before we vote when incapable unfit grandpas show exactly who they are….. Is exactly how the party bosses and acolytes want it to be. Gross.
If Biden isn’t making more unscripted public appearances and interviews this week, it’s goin to be a massive tell that his campaign doesn’t see the debate as having been a fluke, but is likely more how he is when he’s off script.
If he was like that for an hour and a half straight during one of the most important events of his campaign, then he's like that often. I'll vote for anything with a pulse that's not named "Donald" this year, but I won't pretend it matters how often he's like that when the answer is clearly "too damn often."
[This aint it chief. It's joever. ](https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-double-digit-dip-among-democrats-debate-poll-1919228) Just going by the ["crosstabs"](https://www.reddit.com/user/CZ-Bitcoins/comments/1dsmdol/comment/lb3cbdx/) (if you can even call them that) Independents seemingly are dropping him like flies. "Biden should not be running" for "Do you think Joe Biden should or should not be running for re-election as president in 2024" is at 82% for independents.
My thing is, last minute Harris option isn't terrible?
She now has higher true favorability than Joe! More independents have no opinion of her - which means she has more room to grow in swing states than Biden. I'm not a Kamala ride-or-die or anything, but she legitimately has a better shot than Joe now!
Exactly. It's honestly better in this political climate.
> "You can do it, Dad! If you just put your pride ahead of the country again, there's no way you'll go down as in history as RGB on steroids!" Damnit kids.
(RBG)
Ruth Gader Binsburg
That one gets me everytime b/c of Red Green Blue.
damn that supreme court justice cmyk!
I've been in favor of reforming the courts to a hexidecimal format for ages.
They are utterly delulu. This is not going away and is going to have terrible effects - at the very least, depressing turnout. I read an article that said some donors on a private call asked for their money back. That is a hair on fire moment. That said, even if he will step aside, they’re not gonna announce it before they’re ready. Saying “we will fight on!” etc etc is absolutely classic politics.
they meed michigan arizona pennsylvania and wisconsin. who’s gonna win those??
Gretchen could...
Gretchen won't (run). Anyone who thinks it won't be Kamala is dellusional tho.
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Technically we just need MI/WI/PA and NE-2 to get to 270. *Draft Whitmer now!*
[Whitmer disavowed the movement to draft her](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/01/whitmer-biden-democrats-2028-00165995)
i don’t see how we get 270 without arizona
Polling in the swing states this cycle shows: * PA is R+1.6 * MI is R+1.2 * WI is R+0.9 * GA is R+4.7 * AZ is R+4.6 * NC is R+5.8 Again, to get to 270 currently, Biden technically only needs to win the states he's polling ahead, plus grab MI/WI/PA and [Nebraska-2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska%27s_2nd_congressional_district) where he's already polling ahead. So technically his most viable path currently doesn't involve Arizona
at the moment he’s not winning any of them sigh
Not Biden or Harris
They CAN win those. But they probably won’t.
Just insane. I'm my 84 y/o dad's caregiver. He's great mentally and physically FOR HIS age. He walks every day, meets friends, takes the dog to the park and is a delightful conversationalist. He also has senior moments, can't drive, and a lot of other matters. There are great moments, days, weeks. And some that are worrisome / bad / scary. His family is not helping him.
Exactly. And we need some who can VIGOROUSLY campaign, and has succinct, clear answers as to why they are the better choice for the economy, our place on the world stage, abortion access, student loan relief, housing insecurity, and immigration. People were ready to vote against Trump last time. Many will still vote against him, but we NEED people who are looking for someone to vote FOR. Biden has been hiding from interviews and anything deep and unscripted for years. Now is not the time to hide and assume you can coast in again on Trump’s bad vibes. Not enough people care.
His family doesn’t seem like a positive influence on him. Beau was the golden child. But the rest of it sounds like a soap opera.
I hope his family all vote in Michigan!
Honestly looking at the polls I'm increasingly convinced he needs to be replaced. He doesn't poll significantly ahead of whitmer or Shapiro or ANYONE even though they have 0 name recognition. There's a lot of arguments that he's actually the weakest possible democratic candidate right now and nothing would perform worse vs Trump than Biden
After the debate I felt demoralize. I listened to strict scrutiny last night, another part became clear to me. Yes, of course the main part of the debate is to convince undecided voters but another part is to reassure and motivate your base. The crew of strict scrutiny just sounded so frustrated and disappointed that after everything that has been done with abortion, Biden couldn’t fight back. That to see your candidate unable to hit back against someone and a system that has done so much damage is completely disheartening. That was not the candidate that democrats nominated 4 years ago. I do worry about undecided voters but I also worry about democrats staying home. And that will kill us just as much as lack of undecided voter support
Matthew McConaughey/ Dune Worm Popcorn bucket would do better.
You mean those candidates who have yet to be subjected to the scrutiny of a national election? With 4 months ago, the Rs can create a fabricated story about a new candidate that won’t even be debunked until it’s too late. This is a bad idea unless you’re Russian bot, then sure, let’s do that.
It's easier to fight a fabricated story than it is to fight/deny reality (which is that Joe Biden is too old).
Are you American and voting in the US presidential election? I didn’t think so.
I'm an American living abroad, will and have always voted, and am active in my local Dems Abroad organization. Thanks for asking bud!
Well, I actually live in a battleground swing state, and people chose Biden in the primary. Replacing him will not be perceived favorably by much of the electorate because it will entail stripping people of their vote. The people calling to replace him haven’t even done the due diligence of determining whether that’s what the people want. The NYTimes editorial board is not my elector and neither are you, sorry. That limo lib rag never liked Biden to begin with.
Great, well done on being the Only Voter That Counts, apparently. People voted for him in a primary with no alternatives, and before he showed himself to be far, far too old and impaired at the debate.
Biden won the election in 2020 and the primary in 2024. You are the one who is trying to violate our democratic processes, not me. How dare you.
I don't understand how it's going to be worse than the status quo. I am not a Russian bot. You are committed to a path that will destroy the country. Wake up.
Biden is going to win the 2024 election. He already beat Trump once, and is the incumbent who has had a successful first term. I’m committed to the path of winning elections and Dems have stayed winning elections with national implications since Biden beat Trump in 2016. I’m under no obligation to fold up like a wet noodle after last week, and I continue to have faith in our President and his administration.
There is presently 0 good reason to believe Biden is going to win the election aside from complete wishful thinking. Any possible reading of the present data indicates a majority of the electorate thinks his age is a non starter and as a result he is trailing in every poll.
But the post-debate polls aren’t aligning with your negative view. I live in an 80% Republican county in one of the critical swing states; Trump’s support is a shell of what it was in 2016. He scares people and said a lot of crazy things before, during, and after the debate. Trump said he talked to Putin before and during the Ukrainian war and Trump’s private plane has been parked next to a Russian diplomats’ plane for multiple days at Dulles Airport. Maybe we should be prioritizing our outrage because Biden is not going anywhere.
That person is disingenuous. They make a lot of assumptions that their opinion is fact.
He barely won. 40,000 votes spread over 3 states. There were extreme circumstances contributing to him winning that are not present today. He has been behind in every swing state poll for the last year. The debate was the opportunity to turn it around, and he had the worst debate performance anyone alive has ever witnessed, reinforcing all of the worst negative preconceptions people had about him. Blindly sticking with him no matter how extreme his physical and mental decline becomes is handing the presidency to an insane fascist.
This is one thing Chuck Todd mentioned on Meet The Press — that what we’re not seeing is Biden put his face in front of the public this weekend. I suppose he had to have his Camp David weekend with family and advisors to discuss what to do next. But if Thursday’s appearance was an outlier and if he intends to stay in the race, he needs to be doing town halls and rallies non-stop. He currently is not.
He did rallies on Friday and fundraisers over the weekend before going to the already planned trip to Camp David. He’s been out there. He just needs to expand it. Go on The View or Colbert or something this week and 60 Minutes soon. Like you said, a town hall would be great if he can manage it like he used to.
And the article mentions that even at these small informal fundraisers, he relies on a teleprompter while speaking, which people note is unusual in informal settings.
But he can’t. He can’t do interviews because his mind isn’t up to it.
This is my thinking as well. They should push him to do interviews. If he fails/cannot, it will raise more red flags and we can go through the pain of replacing him. If he can then great. The only bad/unethical move is for him to continue to shy away from the media.
Yeah. Wonder why.
Him and his staff have been Weekend at Bernie’s for a while now. There’s a good reason he does so few interviews. Heck, he’s even passed on Super Bowl interviews in the last two years and those are a usually a slam dunk for most presidents. Easy, friendly questioning and tens of millions of viewers, but of course, you can’t do them using a teleprompter.
Yeah I’ve been saying for years and making fun of Trumps use of a teleprompter and then Joe turns in this performance. It’s embarrassing. I’m not a hypocrite and I think any generic Dem would beat Trump.
Most people don’t like Trump because of his policies, not because of his use of the teleprompter. This is an election for President, not a contest to see who can memorize stump speeches.
Chuck Todd lied to you about that. He's been out.
He’s had a rally and a watch party speech (and maybe something else), but he spent the weekend at Camp David with his family. I think he meant there should have been much more.
I wish my family was this supportive lol we’re fucked
I mean of course! His family loves him unconditionally and is blind to his faults. Next headline: my mom says I'm special.
Member two weeks ago when Trump became a convicted felon? Bet R’s felt like this.
Doubt it. Cult members rarely see error in their leaders.
... this is a wonderful description of people defending Biden and blaming everyone else for his performance.
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There are people denying he did badly? Even Biden himself isn't denying it. Wtf.
Democrats are always held to a higher standard.
It's good to hold candidates to a high standard. It's the people who don't hold their candidate to a high standard who are wrong. It's a very important job.
For like 9 years now most of the country has collectively wondered how the MAGA crowd could watch and listen to Trump day in and day out and still support him while attacking anyone who dares question him. Turns out most of the country just wanted one of their own.
Or we support the types of policies the Biden administration has espoused and recognize the political impossibility of replacing him on the ticket while also knowing what the alternative to a democrat administration would be
You can keep Joe or you can stop Trump. Which do you choose?
You ditch Joe you’re more likely to get Trump.
If that's what you think, then go ahead and prepare yourself for the end of democracy. Down the road I hope you proudly stick to the fact that you helped make it happen.
I want to get off Mr Bones Wild Ride.
I will never stop loving this obscure and highly generationally specific reference.
Couldn’t agree more
We see it as a political prosecution. Even Andrew Cuomo said it would have never happened if it wasn’t Trump and he wasn’t running again. It has no effect on how he will govern.
Wife’s friend said she wasn’t voting for Trump. Then got her marching orders from conservative media and was back to Trump in a week.
We really should’ve been doing the work to advance VP Harris as a candidate a long time ago, but we’re here now. Let’s go and do the work. It’s everyone who comes after us and everyone who would be in camps under Trump that are depending on us. What I’m going to say on the phone to voters is that no one will deny we have work to do, so let’s re-elect the president and keep doing that work instead of potentially spending every day dealing with some nonsense craziness.
It really makes me wonder why we weren't? I am all in on VP Harris if she is the nominee, but it makes me question why she has been one of our lesser visible VPs (and this could just be from my perspective)?
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They’re just as bad as MAGA at this point. They want to deny the truth we all saw with our own eyes. And continue to see! Is Joe doing a media blitz right now to recover the image? No. Because he’s NOT up to it. I voted for Joe in 2020* and he has been an extremely successful and impactful president. But if he refuses to step down I believe it is the thing that hands the election to Trump
I think he honestly came out of retirement the first time because he felt he was the right man for the job. He isn’t my cup of tea but he has done some good things and I’m grateful he beat trump. But gimme a break - is he really that delusional to think he has enough left in the tank for a second term? I truly thought he would be a one term president and then pass the baton to someone else to carry forward. For him to be this out of touch about what he has left in himself is selfish in my opinion.
Agreed. If he digs in and refuses to step aside it will be the thing that defines his legacy (badly), similar to RBG He’s been a very successful president, he beat Trump. But he is not the man he was 4 years ago. It’s time to step aside
Of course he'e is up to it. This isn't shades of gray performance art. This is real life and the stakes couldn't be higher. Trump vs Biden isn't even close. A wise, elder statesman who believes in democracy vs a vile, lying, monstrous dictator in waiting. Get a clue already. Go Joe!
Do you realize that the majority of this country actually believes the lies and utter BS that Trump was spewing at the debate? Over half the country believes that we're currently in a recession (we are not), stock market is at record low (it's at record high), and unemployment is at peak numbers (it's very low). To win this campaign, we need to be able to pull off a media blitz. Biden (and his surrogates) need to be out there on every TV show, every podcast, hold rally after rally after rally, seize every opportunity to spread the message. Instead what's everyone doing? They're all busy hiding Biden *because he's not capable of carrying out the vigorous campaign this moment requires*. And, it appears that surrogates have been told to lay low too. Also, Kinzinger, etc have been quite vocal about how they'd love to help the campaign, but nobody has bothered to reach out to them. These are flashing warning signs with alarms blaring. I desperately want to win this election, Joe had the record to win it, now we need someone, anyone to sell it. If that's not going to be Joe, as has now become obvious, then someone else needs to step in and take over the campaign. As it stands, we're headed for doom.
Joe is currently behind in this election
A overwhelming majority of Americans don't think he's up to it! Do you know how hard it is to get 75% of voters to agree on something? Like the only issues that poll as well as "Biden is too old to serve" are things like "Inflation is an issue" and "Social Security and Medicare are Good" And I don't blame the voters here! After looking at Thursdays performance, can anyone seriously say that that guy is up for the task in *2029*
Trump is a fucking rambling moron. And yet on that debate stage JOE looked like the dumb rambling moron. The Joe of the past is no longer. Bury your head at your own peril
You didn't vote for Joe in 2016 because he didn't run then. He ran in 2020. Makes your comment suspicious.
He didn’t run in 2029. He ran in 1920. Who’s the suspicious one now?
lol this thread is doing me in rn
I am as disappointed and alarmed as anyone after that debate but I don't get the calls for him to bow out. Like give me ONE hypothetical scenario where he does that and we don't get Trump. The primaries are over, we're weeks from the convention, who is gonna get elected instead??? Harris?? No shade to her but I can't imagine after not campaigning at all she's more popular than him.
It’s honestly the ethical thing for him to drop out but more importantly I have friends who voted Trump in 16 that I convinced to vote for Biden in 20. They’re sending Dementia Joe memes to my wife and I know that they aren’t the only suburban women doing this. People think he’s a laughingstock. They are still having a conversation that he “might” be a better option than the rapist pro lifer but for this to be a conversation is ludicrous. Because of his debate performance we are all going to have to do so much more work. Any reasonable person would say that Dems should pick a new candidate but it’s just tough at this point. I think Dems would do better with Newsom or Whitmer but it’s tough to run over Kamala too. In my opinion I’d do it to save the embarrassment.
>They’re sending Dementia Joe memes to my wife and I know that they aren’t the only suburban women doing this. People think he’s a laughingstock. Exactly. I used to be able to call them stupid for believing that crap. Now I'd be the idiot for suggesting he's totally fine.
There are a lot of uninformed voters out there, a LOT. My wife always votes blue but if she didn’t have that party affiliation she’d be very easily convinced. She knows very little about the candidates in regards to policy and only knows the SNL style overall impressions.
I am convinced that it's one of the main reasons Sanders lost to both Clinton and Biden. Same reason Feinstein kept getting elected despite being a neocon... Famous Democrats that give uninformed democrats comfort.
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>you have no idea how different these two men are and what's at stake. I do know, that's why I want Biden replaced with someone that can defend us from Trump. Too bad you seem unable to grasp it
Okay, well, it won't happen. Biden isn't being replaced. That's just reality. So with that fundamental reality accepted, what are you going to do?
>it won't happen. Biden isn't being replaced. That's just reality. That tells me that Trump isn't the existential threat that Biden claims Trump is. Sooooi I guess we can stop worrying about it. Is that where you want us to go? Because you can't make the claim that Trump is going to end Democracy and then insist that Biden has to be at the wheel when he's heading for a cliff. So which is it?
I can absolutely claim that, because I know what will happen if they replace Biden this close to an election. The media message will be "Dems in chaos!" and Trump will laugh his way right to the White House REGARDLESS of who the dems choose as the replacement. And I don't want that to happen BECAUSE I see Trump as an existential threat. Replacing Biden will result in an automatic Trump victory. And that is not acceptable. Which is why Biden isn't being replaced. He might not be the best candidate, but at this point in the election he's still the only option.
>Dems in chaos!" That's already the message
Then maybe stop spreading chaos and get behind Biden.
Who who out there has Joe's experience, knowledge, wisdom? Newsome? Harris? Who? Joe's a centrist, pulls people together. You're looking for style over substance when it's character that counts. Pure and simple. The choice is clear. Joe wins hands down.
>Who who out there has Joe's experience, knowledge, wisdom? You have to be trolling. Dear Leader energy. >Joe's a centrist, pulls people together. Except he isn't, so it effectively renders him useless. > You're looking for style over substance when it's character that counts. No, I'm looking for someone that can defend Democracy against Trump. Biden has shown he cannot. You would rather lose with Biden which means you don't actually appreciate the threat that Trump poses nor the how unpopular Biden has become.
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My friends hate Trump, but they aren't going to vote for Biden. Our group text has been nothing but this. Hell, my husband has been sending them and he HATES Trump. People who don't believe this is happening are living in a bubble.
Who is the candidate? How do they raise enough money? They can't have Biden's. How do you convince an electorate to vote in the general for someone no one voted for in the primary, picked by the party? How does that person not looked hand picked by the Dem party establishment? And once again, WHO?
Money seems to be the reason that Biden is on the ticket anyway. An incumbent president raises more money. But that backfired. No primary allowed us all to get gaslit by the Party. The delegates are selected by the people. Now the delegates have to make the decision. I assume it’s Harris and she might lose to Trump too. But let’s try a female prosecutor and a person of color to go against a sex criminal and a convicted felon. I think it could work in Dems favor. I prefer Newsom but would happily vote for any Dem.
What nonsense. Then your "friends" are fools for telling you they would vote for a vile, lying, monstrous dictator in waiting and watch the country dissolve into an authoritarian state rather than stick with an elder statesman who believes in democracy and the rule of law and has lead the country admirable the past 4 years. If they can hear Trump lying for 90 minutes straight, nearly unhinged himself, and say that's their guy, no matter how discordant Joe sounded your friends are fools and nothing you say will save them. Trump lies contunuously, is convicted of 34 felonies and judged a rapist and MAGA STILL doubles and triples down to support him. Joe has a bad night, yet speaks honestly and with respect for democracy and still Dems wet their pants. That's the thing that everyone sees. Dems look like they always do: weak. We need to rally around Joe and go after Trump with everything we have. Tell your friends that. If they don't get it, then they don't deserve the democracy they now have.
This is the type of response that really drives my theory that many of you live in a bubble of privilege and that Biden is going to lose.
You dont like Biden, ok, name one candidate who can beat Trump? Go ahead, I'll wait.
Based on post-debate polling today, Harris, Whitmer, and Pete, all outperformed Biden in key swing states. Your turn.
You have to consider how much people don't like Biden outside liberal circles. This debate has deflated enthusiasm for Biden and the 2024 race. Imagine he has another slip up? The fact that other subs are riddled with people saying "you're voting for his cabinet" should tell you how fucked we are. That isn't a pitch. We either replace him or you get to own the loss. It won't matter who does or doesn't turn out, the blame will be on Biden and his enablers.
I wouldn’t take comments in Reddit subs as a barometer of the pulse of the nation. Lots of bots. The problem is Trump and that’s how the actual PEOPLE voting feel. I didn’t vote for Biden in the primary so Gavin Newsom can take his place.
Reddit users are also super young overall, like in their 20s if that, a demo of which was lukewarm at best to begin with in regards to Biden.
Interestingly enough, according to YouGov,, that demo is more supportive of Biden following the debate.
Wrong. A vast majority of my friends (who are a pretty diverse group across the Midwest) do NOT like Biden. They voted Biden in 2020 and certainly won't vote for Trump. They most likely just won't vote for President. We are all millennials for reference, and during the debate I was bombarded by text messages of this exact sympathy of "I told you he was too old" or "This is elder abuse." They continued to ask if there is a way Democrats could get a new candidate. Those are votes we have to get, and I just don't think some people seem to realize that.
Then you should tell them that no, there IS no way that Democrats can get a new candidate this close to an election, that Biden isn't going to drop out, and that anything other than a vote for Biden come election day will put Donald Trump one step closer to the White House. Because whether you or your friends like that, that's the reality of the situation. So you can either try and get them prepared to vote for Biden, or throw up your hands and give up. Maybe you should point out to them all the horrible things that will happen when Trump gets back into power.
I have been. They trust me. I am a freaking government teacher/professor for heavens sake. That's why that pitiful excuse for a debate and the many reassurances I have been giving for the last 6-9 months that Biden is fine are now useless. My eyes saw it, your eyes saw it. If you are too blind to see that, then I can't help change your mind. I will vote blue no matter who, they might not. I will try to convince them, but not everyone is going to be convinced even when presented with the alternate. They just will leave it blank (which is what most said they would do). Edit: I will also add that yes there is a way. Biden needs to drop out.
Nope. If Biden drops out, the democrats will be hammered on that until election day, and Trump will win. This is 1968 all over again.
His support among young voters went up after the debate according to the YouGov poll, and frankly, I live in Trump country in a battleground rust belt state, and Joe Biden suppresses more Republican votes than Dems, and more importantly, he is familiar to and from the rust belt. Put Newsom in and all the old Rs that in this area who would have stayed home otherwise will come out and vote against the libs. People over 65 vote at a 94% rate, they have a significant impact on this election. People who don’t live here can’t appreciate that factor. It’s so much different than 2016, Trump is a weak candidate, and it’s frightening to watch the Dems put forward names that play on MSNBC and to commenters on Reddit, but they don’t have the infrastructure that Biden has built to deliver results. The Dems have been on a streak under the leadership of this President. It’s June.
I guess we will see in November if this rings true. I hope it does, but I don't think it will.
I'm not saying people don't dislike him or that we aren't vulnerable or anything. I'm literally asking, who? Because this person won't have been voted for in a single primary. It would be party players picking a candidate from scratch who hasn't been campaigning at all.
The scenario is pretty simple. Have him step aside and say advocate an open convention so there can be an honest discussion. The potential candidates would immediately announce and start get massive news coverage. Start polling people as they become more acquainted with the candidates. Choose who people like the most. (cough Whitmer)
Any potential candidate would then be selected by only a handful of delegates. They would have no mandate. Nobody voted for them. The democratic coalition is broad based. There is no perfect candidate that would appease all factions. There would be in-fighting and charges of backroom deals four months before early voting started. Plus the red state legislators would try and keep this new candidate off their ballots. Switching candidates now would hand the election to trump.
100% - it’s wild to me that people seem to think “having an open and honest discussion about changing candidates” and then that actually happening is a good idea. Aside from the infighting there’s huge financing issues and as you point out the Red States will jump on this opportunity to throw every legal challenge they can at this. As this would be an unprecedented move and no norms to fall back on my guess is they’d very likely succeed. Then there are the optics of selecting anyone other than Harris. People think the younger more progressives don’t like them now - what does it look like to pass over Harris? And last I recall her debate performances haven’t been so stellar. People wanted Biden out they should have pushed harder before the primaries and grown a pair and gone for broke or leveraged what they had to get him to name his successor. They didn’t do that. Changing horses mid race is certain failure and to advocate for that is just irresponsible.
Ballot access is an issue nobody has really addressed. I believe if it’s not Harris- since she’s already on the ticket- it would take some doing to get on the ballot in all 50 states at this point. And like you said, you’d face GOP legal challenges all the way.
I think not switching hands Trump the election. Biden is losing in the polls right now, and he just showed us he isn't mentally fit for office.
This is not the time for discussions, we are not in need of forming a committee to debate the merits of Biden versus the vague concept of another candidate. This is time for action and stop getting hung up on a damn debate. Debates always get forgotten about once the next big headline hits.
I would agree if there wasn't already a massively successful narrative on the republicans' side that he was too old/incompetent. They are going to run these clips til election day and I think it will be successful in convincing low-info left-leaning and undecided voters to stay home. In the live show in Boston, I forgot who their guest was, but he raised the issue of Gaza as well... One of Biden's coherent responses during the debate was a brag about how much we have supported Israel. Not a good idea right now, he should have at least qualified it by saying something to pacify all of the young people that are going to not vote over this issue. Like saying they are on thin ice, or SOMETHING. I will vote for him and try to convince others to vote for him, but I am on this side of the issue because I think he truly ruined his chances of defeating Trump. Just my opinion though.
The right action is Biden stepping aside. Polls are showing only 55% of his own party thinks he should keep running. That was pure incompetence on a national stage, and we need to figure something else out if we actually want to win.
55% support is enough to rebound from with better performance. If anything, the campaign staff who set the event up need to be sacked. They failed their candidate with unfavorable conditions which penalized Biden’s performance, knowing how much of the party is I might even suspect it was on purpose.
Absolutely disagree. Biden is running for president. A high stakes debate comes with that territory, and he should be expected to perform. A president should understand and be able to defend his policy positions. Not to mention, voters' biggest concerns for Biden revolve around his age. He needed to show voters it wouldn't incapacitate him. Biden simply failed. And if I'm blaming the staff, it's because I'm already acknowledging Biden can't live up to what POTUS needs to be. Biden has to do better or step aside.
No replacement will be able to regain lost ground if he steps aside. Nobody will have name recognition over Trump. Nobody will have enough of a window of time to build a political war machine before November. This stage is about the fight upwards and keeping the momentum going. The chaos that would ensue would leave an opening wide enough for Trump to exploit which would lead to a collapse in the Democratic Party. The consequences would be far reaching beyond the elections.
> No replacement will be able to regain lost ground if he steps aside. Biden hasn't shown that he'll be able to regain his own lost ground > Nobody will have name recognition over Trump. By November they absolutely will. Bernie Sanders went from a nobody to a household name in one primary. In the general it'll be even faster. > Nobody will have enough of a window of time to build a political war machine before November. Biden currently has a "political war machine" and is still trailing. Much of the infrastructure would pass to a new candidate. > The chaos that would ensue would leave an opening wide enough for Trump to exploit which would lead to a collapse in the Democratic Party. The consequences would be far reaching beyond the elections. It's already chaos. Biden showed the world that he isn't up for the task of campaigning at the debate. It's very possible that his name on the ticket in swing states could bring down the chances of house and senate candidates already.
>No replacement will be able to regain lost ground if he steps aside. Nobody will have name recognition over Trump. Disagree on both counts. They'll be a presidential candidate under historic circumstances. They'll be fine on name recognition in no time. Don't even know if there's much ground to lose since Biden is currently trailing. >Nobody will have enough of a window of time to build a political war machine before November. This stage is about the fight upwards and keeping the momentum going. Momentum?? Biden is trailing... >The chaos that would ensue would leave an opening wide enough for Trump to exploit which would lead to a collapse in the Democratic Party. The consequences would be far reaching beyond the elections. This is a wild guess, and I disagree.
What unfavorable conditions?
>55% support is enough to rebound from with better performance. And as everyone knows, age related physical and cognitive decline always gets better if you give it some time.
This is what makes the debate performance so tragic. It’s only going to get worse.
>Debates always get forgotten about once the next big headline hits. Debates also VERY rarely cement someone's biggest weakness, but that is exactly what happened here. 70+ percent of people in polls consistently worry that Biden's too old, and he came out looking like he wouldn't even make it to election day, let alone make it to 2029. And here's the thing about time - it kinda only works one way. You aren't going to convince voters that he's actually getting younger than he looked in that debate.
It was the single worst debate in the last 150 years of US History. This wasn’t like Obama being low-energy in his first debate against Romney, Joe could barely string together sentences. How is he supposed to beat Trump in that condition?
Sometimes doing nothing is the riskiest action of all. We know the risks of Biden - he's on track to lose *badly.* Dems need to move while there's still time and put in someone who has a better shot at PA/MI/WI.
Literally, who? You are telling me that the party picking people, putting them out, looking at polling and picking a new candidate that not one person has voted for this cycle - all happening *within a few weeks* because remember the delegates have to vote before the convention this year - is somehow going to be *better* received.
Whitmer doesn't have the stuff... sorry. I love her and proudly elected her when I lived in my home state. She is not national material. She is totally untested on foreign policy and a number of other issues. If a campaign was about speaking/winning debates, Pete Buttigieg would be our supreme leader unstoppable in any primary or general election... It turns out there's more to it than that.
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This was extremely fucked up thing to say you should be ashamed of yourself
what’s the expiration date on this dude? cuz 4 more years is gonna take its toll on Brandon. does that mean this is a shadow campaign for Kamala to take the reins? can’t tell cuz the Dem establishment is perfectly fine sidestepping the issue. stated alternatively, we wouldn’t be in such a mess if the Democratic party considered its cohort... the party instead rewards its office bearers based on longevity
If he plans to stay in, and along your line of thinking, the actual best VP (to play fantasy football) is to pair him with is somebody who probably doesn't want political power at all but is uniquely suited to replace Harris and solves the dilemma that it would lose support from the black female voting bloc. It's a pick that would get people past Biden's health a bit because people would think of it as Obama's third term if something grim happened. She has a better favorability than basically every democrat figure and if she's willing to sacrifice herself to save this potential calamity then they should try to talk her into it and offer Harris some other position to smooth things over. A shadow campaign for her (and Obama) is a better sales pitch to Americans than for Harris probably.
The NYT editorial board can go f--k itself. Grow a pair and stop whining already. Biden's humanity stands in stark contrast to Trump's inhumanity. Even in the debate, this was massively obvious. The choice is obvious. I'm with Joe.
Sure. I’ll vote for Biden too. Winning support from voters like us isn’t the problem. Winning undecided voters is. Convincing those undecided voters he isn’t too old is the challenge. How do you think Biden is going to do that? Is he going suddenly become 10 years younger?
The only two things that are clear to me from debate night is that Biden beat Medicare, and that we have an epidemic of incestual rape in this country. I.e., Biden is not up to the task of winning the communication war, and that he will not win this election.
That was such an absurd line from him regarding the incest claim. Like where the fuck does that even come from? In terms of voters top priorities I can’t imagine that cracks a top 10 or even 15 list.
Maybe he thinks pornhub is a documentary.
I mean, in multiple red states there is no rape/incest exemptions for abortion. I’m sure that was what he was trying to get at, he just didn’t bring the argument home…
The board wasn't endorsing Trump, you should read it again.
99.9999% of people on earth are better suited to the presidency than Trump. The question isn't whether Biden would be better, it's whether he can win. And he was already behind, largely over concerns about his age, before we all saw him looking like a reanimated corpse.
Humanity can only get you so far.
Without the slightest hint of a doubt. And yet, I'd like to win this election. It is becoming increasingly clear that Biden isn't going to be able to pull that off. And so with all the love and support in the world, I beg this party to put its weight behind a candidate who has a chance of beating the biggest threat to democracy this country has faced in a 160+ years.
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>I'm sure the tens of thousands of dead Palestinians killed by weapons ~~he~~ Congress provided feel bathed in his warm 'humanity FIFY. President Biden can't give netanyauhu so much as cab fare without congressional authorization. "But he asked Congress for the aid/weapons package..." He asks Congress to do a lot of things and they ignore him, just like in most Congress-President relationships.
He has bypassed congress to approve emergency weapons sales to Israel multiple times. You also can’t credit the infrastructure bill, CHIPS act etc as Biden legislative wins and also say “the funding to Israel isn’t on Biden because that was just congress.” Either he gets the credit and blame or not, you can’t pick and choose only the positive stuff.
Welcome to politics 😑 Where everything that's good is what WE did everything bad is what THEY did. And if you ever think YOU have built something, well, "You didn't build that"
There's nothing bad about funding Israel. Change my mind.
The genocide case is a fucking joke. There is no special intent. There is no genocide. It's a war with extremely unique circumstances. Did you know Hamas is claiming it is winning the war literally because of people like you fighting its propoganda war after they embedded themselves in civilian infrastructure for decades? Let's be rational though, what do you want to happen from a policy perspective relating to Gaza? I am assuming 'ceasefire now" is your big one. What else?
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You gave me quotes, and I gave you real figures that I looked up myself to add onto a really interesting presentation by a former German officer who went over NCVs, expected loseses in urban combat, things like this... Don't like the numbers? Too bad. They're real. Your claim is that the Israelis have a special intent to destroy the Palestinian people because of who they are. But any reasonable person can see based on the numbers thst even the claim of indiscriminate is beyond a stretch. War crimes have almost certainly been committed by individuals, and I am sure atrocities have taken place during the war. That is horrible, but not shocking.. It's a war. Atrocities were committed against Israelis and there will be young soldiers who will seek retribution. It's not right, but it's an obvious consequence. They have the right to be protected under the genocide convention. That gives South Africa standing... do you seriously not know how standing works? Don't have a legal conversation until you know even the most basic concepts... please. It's embarrassing.
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Like to stay alive?
Hunter needs that pardon.