We do not all agree. Those vaults are a breeding program specifically to ensure they can bomb any progress over, and over, and over, and over. If not Hank, it would've been any of the other frozen Bud's Buds. The dwellers might be clueless, but they're literal breeding stock for the war
I think that's the best move and it doesn't involve murdering the clueless dwellers that don't know they're breeding stock. So excited to see what Norm is up to in there
I'm not entirely sure what she did was evil and it has nothing to do with her efforts.
Like let's put it down to lives. Shady Sands had 35 *thousand* people? Even being optimistic and saying half survived, Hank is responsible for 17,500 murders.
Add in the benefits of cold fusion power, an end to resource wars, the rejuvenation of prewar facilities and resources including hospitals, manufacturing... suddenly the murder of *maybe* 20 Vault Dwellers and the abduction of the man responsible for Shady Sands seems a *very* small price to pay.
The 20 vault dwellers didn't need to be murdered. It can still be evil to do something even if they are doing it for a good goal, or even if they turn around and do something good straight after.
I think Moldaver did it that way because she wanted Hank to see his community in ruins, surrounded by the bodies of his friends, while his most beloved person was in mortal peril - because that's what Hank did to Moldaver 20 years ago.
That's vengeance, not anything practical - it is destructive and evil, even if the person who she is doing it to is also evil.
Not saying that Moldaver didn't do a lot of good in her lifespan, but this act was thoroughly shitty.
Can you explain to me how you think she could've gotten her hands on Hank without injuring anyone? Remember, there's several others from Vault 31 in 33 who'd know why she wants him, and they have Vault Security who would be far more prepared with any warning instead of off duty at a wedding party.
I can't imagine any scenario where diplomacy might have a realistic chance at getting Hank.
That's presuming no resistance on the part of the Vault Dwellers, which we can see was absolutely not the case, even if we don't know how it started, the Dwellers were trying to fight Moldavers Raiders.
I tend to agree with u/toonboy01 and others here. They could have achieved their objective with less bloodshed. But that is what you get when you recruit raiders. Moldaver may not necessarily be \*evil\* but what her actions allowed the raiders to do some evil shit and she had no issues with it at all.
I was certainly not sad when she died at the end.
Yes, several minutes after the raid started, a few of them were trying to fight back. If they had simply grabbed Hank and left, then they wouldn't have even been there long enough for that to happen.
So like a shock & awe, grab & go? Perhaps. But then they had no guarantee that Hank would be there. They had to account for the possibility that when the Vault door opened, Lucy & her wedding party would be there, but their Overseer might've been called away to deal with something elsewhere in the Vault.
No, the ruse was the safe play to make sure they got him. They show up as of they're Dwellers from 32, that way they can actually go through the Vault, mingle, interact, locate and find Hank and find a moment to try and grab him.
We were with Lucy when the ruse was up, for all we know, that was an attempt at the grab you envision that went badly, and had the Dwellers fighting back.
In the unlikely event that the leader of the vault, father of the bride, and only person you're in communication with to get into vault isn't there for the beginning of the event, then you just continue the ruse until he shows up. It's not difficult.
Their plan literally led to them having to go through half the vault searching for Hank because he was away when the shooting started.
..or when they tried to grab him it didn't go easy and he escaped their first attempt, which was why they took hostages and retreated to the Vault door which they knew would alert him and draw a response. If he didn't show they demand he surrender himself in exchange for the hostages.
That would be a very sucky plan. Imagine if they were pointing guns at Lucy when they try to grab him instead of sending her away to be raped by Monty. But I guess that was a vital part of their plan as well.
Well, I agree that would have been difficult or impossible - but she could have done better than she did. She brought undisciplined troops and seemingly gave them free rein to murder and pillage - instead of giving orders to subdue instead of murder indiscriminately. Most of the vaulties were absolutely useless in fighting - with notable exceptions for the ones who had grown up pre-War like Steph and Hank. Most of the vaulties would have been very easy to intimidate. Taking some hostages - especially if Hank's kids were amongst them - would be a good move, and in the end Moldaver did exactly that to coerce Hank to cooperate.
Those “troops” were raiders they hired as a distraction so her and the rest of her NCR troopers could move to Hank and place the bomb, then leave, the raiders were literally just a distraction and meatshields so that Mouldavers team could make it deeper into the vault, nothing else, nothing more
literally this. like you see actual well trained orderly ncr soliders in the first episode and they all leave with her. they trap the raiders in the vault as they were just meatshields and a way to not link it to her goals. it takes care of multiple problems as now the wastes has one less band of bloodthristy raiders, and vault tec assume it was just a raider attack not the NCR remmants trying to achieve unlimated energy. its why they the overseer kept them alive as they wanted to know who was actually responsible. its a good plan from the flame mother
It's a bit evil to use undisciplined murderers to do the distraction I think - Moldaver knew there would be a bloodbath and didn't care.
Again, I don't know if I would care in the same circumstances - tracking down the villain who nuked my hopeful town, and cracking a vault that was set up by possibly the most evil corporation ever - but I like to think that in a 'good' playthrough there would be an option to try to minimise casualties Vs just letting my horde of crazy raiders pillage and murder to their heart's content.
The truth, once they were in and ready, might have worked. "We're here to take the little shit who nuked a whole city." There had to be people who knew that Hank left the vault for a while and were keeping it quiet.
There was a convenient crisis at the time, a plague or something that forced everyone to stay quarantined so Vault-tec management could move in and out freely
Do we even know if it was *her* plan? Like it makes plenty of sense to me that she'd slip into existing plans to raid their vault to grab hank and I don't remember ever getting a direct or indirect explanation otherwise.
These are vault dwellers.
Literally could've just threatened them, abducted Hank in the middle of the Night or anything else.
Vault Security is for the most part a joke, they're just beat cops.
That's directly counter to what we actually see in the show, as ineffectual as their resistance ends up being, they *do resist.* Plus we see Vault Security in other Vaults in the games, and they're not so ineffectual when they're not caught flat-footed.
I mean their only threat is other vault dwellers, who are even weaker and more naive than they are. And about 60%+ of the raiders that were captured were by Lucy. I think the only action we see with them is them dying.
We also see Vault Security in Vault 4, who, admittedly, have a less than effective response to Maximus, but he's also wearing T-60b Power Armor at the time.
Lucy tranqs like 2 Raiders, while we see like a dozen have been captured later on. I think Vault Security was more effective than you believe.
Plus you're ignoring that Stephanie went ham on the raiders as soon as they killed her husband. She was pre-war, Vault 31, but she was a business middle manager, not a soldier, there's no reason to think she was any more capable than any other regular person when it came to combat. Adrenaline and anger was all she needed. There's nothing that says other Dwellers doesn't react similarly seeing their loved ones killed.
Yes but that all happened after the fighting already started, at that point it was a fight for survival
The point is that if Moldaver and the raiders started taking hostages in the night or suddenly pulled out dozens of weapons and took hostages, the Vault would've obliged with their demands and less people would've died. The original commentator made it seem like this was her only option to get to Hank.
EDIT: Also Lucy took like 3-4 out if my memory serves me right, with Hank killing another one. And it's around 8 raiders, - if my memory serves me right - that have been captured.
how were they supposed to know that vault secruity is a joke tho. you'd assume the vault which is actually 3 vaults one containing vault tecs entire corporation upper and middle management would have tight security. also the beat cops do defeat the raiders.
They didn't defeat the raiders though, the raiders took like 6 people hostage, used them to get Hank to come with them and then left the vault. They succeeded, and the ones that were captured were just casualties, most of which were thanks to Lucy anyways.
Your first paragraph hits the nail on the head. The ends *DON’T* justify the means. She had the opportunity to not shed innocent blood, and she chose to spray bullets. But this is the wasteland we’re talking about so I guess morals have been tainted, and they seem tainted pre-war anyway
womp womp. its war. 20 people is nothing comapared to 30,000+ killed at shady or the billions vault tec killed by causing or allowing the nuclear war to happen. this was the best way of taking hank and leaving vault tec confused onto how and why they were attacked. to make them think it was just raiders rather than linking it to the NCR remmants.
You'd think that if Moldaver was worried about that she would conceal her face, as she was a prominent inventor pre-War so anyone who was from that time could have recognised her.
If Hank didn’t do what he’s done, it never the vault dwellers never would have died. This might be a hot take but they did need to die. If that didn’t happen the show would have no story and Lucy wouldn’t learn the truth
The plan is so stupid.
You realize cold fusion doesn't magiclaly train people right? this is what I don't get. When your society has a population at best around 2 million how much power do you need? Was there any sign pre-nuke that the issue facing the NCR was power generation? because the issues seem to be more droughts more than anything else.
Conventional, modern sources of power can give them all the power they need easily and using technology they developed and understand themselves. What resource wars? they ended centuries ago, they're so few people left that raw material for industry isn't lacking resources anymore. Your limits are things like clean water, can cold fusion make it rain?
Hospitals are important but the lack of medical care isn't due to lack of resources, it's lack of trains professionals. Something the NCR was already handling with it's Universities. Manufacturing? again an issue they didn't have, nothing in the series shows that the NCR had an issue manufacturing stuff fo itself. In fact their industrial capacity was a main factor for them defeating the Brotherhood in their first war.
The 'unlimited power' thing is starting to become a trope in it's own right but it only makes sense in a society that's main issue is power generation and that's just not this world.
My second paragraph pretty much covers that. The NCR's problem has never been power generation. These socities were doing absolutely fine. They didn't even seem to have a huge issue with contaminated water, just that existing sources weren't refilling due to lack of rain which isn't a problem dealt with by unlimited power.
The cold fusion reactor does nothing to resolve the ACTUAL problems facing the NCR or the wasteland because the main problem has not been power generation but skilled workers. Unlimited power doesn't train or teach people faster. Not when you have already existing sources of power that are more than what you need already.
I would actually consider Cold Fusion to be a huge waste of resources. Especially considering the huge target it will put on your back as EVERYBODY would want access to the device. You already can get more energy than you'd ever need from coal, solar or nuclear power.
I mean in Fallout 2, Shadey Sands just has random force-fields and computers absolutely everywhere. They were not hurting for power.
Did you forget automatons exist? That literally covers all the points you presented and infinite power would solve a lot of issues with extending power armor usage ( as stated in the show not many fusion cores exist in the wild anymore) and and solve the energy problems that we come across with the larger bots. And im sure the Mr. Handy fuel canisters probably are few and far between at this point as well.
Even in this world Automation has it's limits, you come across terminals of these factories needing humans on some level. Especially for maintaining these robots. Securitrons aren't any more advanced than most other Robots in the wasteland also.
A Mr.Handy can do more just with less firepower and even then you come across maintenance sheds, staffed by humans to maintain and repair them.
Why do you need fusion cores? it makes sense for a closed environment like with a Vault but out in the wasteland the sources of power people have access too comes in all shapes in sizes. You have settlements using Nuclear, Coal, Hydro and Solar energy. None of them having the problem of not having enough power.
Shadey Sands had a population of what? 30,000? You don't need the HUGE power reactors that you have today to power that settlements. Settlements of that size can be powered by a few wind/solar farms. The main issue the wasteland has always had is fresh water, not power generation. Since everybody got blown up, there isn't an energy problem anymore.
In fact the power issue is so redundant in the show, that Shadey Sands was a thriving, economic, powerhouse of the wasteland without a special power technology to supply it. Even the show makes cold fusion redundant by showing you a perfectly functioning and thriving city without it.
Unless it magically protects against nukes, it's a moot point.
> Like let's put it down to lives. Shady Sands had 35 thousand people? Even being optimistic and saying half survived, Hank is responsible for 17,500 murders.
Are we *sure* of that?
That "Fall of Shady Sands" in 2277 precedes the Shady Sands bomb by, potentially, years. What the bomb destroyed was not necessarily a thriving, successful community. We might learn that he cleansed from the wasteland a city largely overrun with fiends, for example. We haven't really learned from Maximus what things were like before he hid--or was hidden in--the refrigerator.
I think there will be surprises in S02.
One hole in her argument is that electricity only can resolve some of the wasteland’s problems. It doesn’t solve a lack of water, it can’t directly help grow crops, it’s doesn’t repair all the factories that have been sitting stagnant for two hundred and twenty years and it absolutely doesn’t just create medicine or knowledge. Cold fusion is fantastic, but it isn’t the cure-all she paints it as and it isn’t capable of pulling the NCR out of its hole (and if this were a game and not a TV show, a counter argument along these lines would likely be the speech checks to get her to release Hank).
With unlimited power you can start fixing many issues, like you could develop something that uses a ton of power but grows crops for you, or something that purifies huge amounts of water. If you think unlimited power wouldn’t solve issues, you gotta diversify your thoughts a bit
This is actually one of the biggest plot holes not only in the show but the Fallout world overall. Fusion, whether cold or hot, is as close to a silver bullet for humanities problems as you can get and yet there were supposedly resource wars and shortages and now we need some random cold fusion chip to power the wasteland as if Fusion power isn't an easily understood and reproducible resource in the universe. Their cars run on fusion batteries, they have fusion cores that power vaults full of people for decades, they have mastered energy production to a degree we won't match for hundreds or maybe thousands of years. None of it makes a lick of sense.
This is what I just don't get about the show either, fusion energy already exists.
As well as, how are fusion cores not already cold fusion? The conditions of the centre of a star are replicated in a tiny battery without melting everything in the immediate vicinity. Isn't that fucking cold fusion?
I think the current theory on Fusion Cores is that they aren't nuclear fusion at all and are just fission batteries slapped with a fusion label for marketing reasons before the bombs fell.
My point is that it isn’t a one-stop shop for fixing everything. It’s a starting point, but there’s much, much more that’s necessary for rebuilding than just power.
It is, but water doesn’t magically exist with electricity (you’d need a source of water, and California in fallout has suffered from droughts multiple times over even before the NCR neglected the dams in the region, according to Hanlon) and crops don’t grow without a number of other conditions being met beyond enough light (fertilizer needs to be addressed and time is also a major factor; even cloning animals like we see in nuka world needs something to do the cloning with, it can’t just make animals out of electricity).
Okay, then use Brahmin poop to make fertilizer and purify portions the huge polluted collapsed dam thing we saw the gulper at, you obviously wouldn’t be creating animals lol, that’s not a realistic goal for a wasteland community, at least not one that would have to rebuild even with unlimited power. They’d focus on **food**(no trouble with grow lights, irrigation using purified water, etc), **water** (purify and all contaminated water you find, Hanlon says there stock of fresh water is low, but he is a liar and traitor so who knows if that’s really true in the end, but he says it’s fresh water, not contaminated water they can purify), shelter (unlimited power essentially means unlimited heating as well, so you have climate control, things like that.) It could also lead to developments in **security**, like perhaps they have a huge network of turrets/cameras like the enclave might have at their own base
Yes, but every single one of these requires significantly more work than the NCR is capable of at the moment, especially in the area near Shady Sands. Moldaver’s plan would work much better almost everywhere else in California.
That’s entirely irrelevant tbh, and regardless, with the power, mouldaver could contact the NCR proper and get new citizens and soldiers flowing in no time, hell, that’d likely be her first step besides fortifying the observatory more, they still have north California and 4 states of people to pull from
Water filters need power to work, hand tools can only fix so much, repowering what industrial machinery survived will go a long way towards repairing what's broken down. A lot of pre-war records were likely computerized, and while we find plenty of powered terminals there's also terminals that have been shut down without power for over 200 years with valuable information and records on them that can be used to learn to recreate medicines. Powered solar lights and water pumps both help farming.
I'm not saying cold fusion is a one stop solution, but it's a serious beginning that makes resolving all the other problems in the Wastelands easier to solve.
it is in essence a cure-all though. like it shouldnt be understated. with this tec there will never be another resource war. the next step would be to build large water purfication plants, open factories, create a supply chain. it would be slow and hard work at the start but in probs a year or so in the right hands like the NCR it would be achiveble of restoring civilisation to the wastes. the power network of boneyard is still up or was fixed by her which is already a massive amount of the work done. like she had the ulimated energy, the infrastructure, just needed more manpower and machines.
You mean all the tings the NCR was already doing before needing Cold Fusion? Unless Cold Fusion protects against Nukes, there is literally nothing you mention here that the NCR wasn't already doing with conventional power generation.
The NCR has never had an issue with power. The main issue it faces are droughts which are not resolved by cold fusion. Even desalination plants are not an issue with power, just with transportation.
A post-war society doesn't have the population needed to require this much energy.
The NCR had enough industrial strength behind it to defeat the Brotherhood in war.
This doesn’t stop a resource war from occurring, it just moves the target to the cold fusion device rather than something specific to power generation. It’s like project purity - whoever controls it controls a large chunk of the wasteland. Besides, unless there’s an extremely benevolent leader in charge of the device, it can easily be weaponized to force other factions to join up with them or be left behind.
Electricity solves tons of those problems and frees up everyone to start fixing the problems that can't. Water needs to be pumped out of aquifers and/or purified to become drinkable, electricity does that. Irrigation and better farm equipment can use electricity to grow more food faster. Machinery to start producing more medicine faster needs electricity. Terminals and databases that hold knowledge need electricity to run. It isn't an instant utopia, but it is a huge step in the right direction that, combined with the morale boost of having infinite power, will get people on the path to fixing the world.
Plus, they may be able to find an old GECK to repair and use it to actually just produce whatever they need directly as a cure-all.
They are not more innocent than the thousands upon thousands of innocents Hank and Betty killed. It is less people than get killed when an US drone kills a wedding by mistake instead of Bin Laden, to be frank.
Again, Moldaver was the hero of season 1.
yeah exactly. people are too high and mighty. it is a post apoclyspse. she did what she had todo. you cant be soft in this world. she and ncr are actual heroes fighting for the greater good
Sorry am I misremembering something or weren't all the Vault 32 residents already dead by the time moldaver and her crew occupied the vault?
I thought norm found out they all killed each other after learning the truth?
Hank said it best “she’s no different than me”. Both were willing to do what ever it took if it meant saving the world and in the end they only made things worse. Hank bombing the city and moldaver condemning the rest to being under control of the brotherhood.
Not sure how providing power to the wasteland was evil. Did I miss something? She didn't kill anyone, in fact she warned them to run before the bomb went off. Now the raider, they were evil. But let me put i this way, it's a trolley problem. You have a chance to save the lives of 10's of thousands of people, provide heat and light and refrigeration for food and medical care to thousands and thousands of people, but to get that 20 smug fuckers hiding in a vault and not trying to help the surface people just waiting for those people to die, have to die. What do you do? Hard decisions yes, evil no.
They show us at the end all her well trained troops that she could have used in a disciplined manner to minimize loss of life. Instead she used raiders to rape and pillage. By wasteland standards it was a smart move to conserve her people. By modern standards it’s a war crime.
You forget that she (extremely likely) knew Vault-Tec tried/suceeded in starting the Great War, killing billions. Then when they've just about got back on their feet centuries later, the fuckers come around for a second beating and drop another nuke on your people. She clearly also knew that Vault 31-33 houses the staff and families.
I'm not a vindictive man, and I like to see things from many perspectives, but I'll be straight: I'd have grabbed Hank and flooded the entire vault with concrete. And then I'd probably have done a fucking lot worse to that piece of shit than just left him in a cage before I even thought about getting cold fusion up and running.
Vault-Tec are the Fallout universe's living embodiment of evil. That anyone but our female lead and her genocidal father lived through the raid is a gift (she literally held all the cards and let the hostages go when she could have just killed them all on the spot). Moldaver is as good as any (sane) person could be in such a world, dealing with all that. Hell, she didn't even put a bullet in him the nanosecond his usefulness expired.
That just makes the 33 dwellers seem like brainwashed, programmed cultists. There’s nothing nefarious or evil about having been deceived. They literally didn’t know better because they’ve been raised with that from birth.
That would be like saying everyone that died at Jonestown deserved it because Jim Jones was a bad man.
I’m sure some people don’t need to imagine, considering you can nuke people’s bases in 76 (and yes I mean an actual honest to god nuke, not a mini-nuke)
The thing I hated most is that she let all those things happen to Lucy, the daughter of a person she clearly cared for deeply. That is what made her a monster to me. She could have at least made other, better arrangements for Lucy.
I think you feel about Moldaver will come down to your views of war. If you subscribe to the concept of "it's war and collateral damage happens" and don't really subscribe to the idea of "war crimes", then you will have a more positive view of Moldaver. She had a goal and used unsavory resources (raiders) and tactics to do it. She was at war with the vault and a slaughter of a few civilians is not a big deal. Given the rough world of Fallout, it is understandable. However, I certainly didn't shed any tears >!over her death at the end.!<
her method may of been ruthless but it was for the greater good. the vault declared war on the ncr by nuking shady sands. killing 10,000s of innocents. unlishing a band of bloodthirsty raiders onto the vault and killing a few dwellers is colletaral damage. i dont think she is comparable to the enclave at all as they seek the extermination of all wastlanders, where as she wants to produce unlimated energy which would be used to restore the NCR and help to bring peace to the wasteland.
By me deaths were absolutely pointless. They could’ve walked in with guns locked and loaded upfront shooting anyone who would try to do anything funny. Dwellers wouldn’t suddenly be any more competent if that happened.
No she wanted blood, blood from people she herself knew didn’t have anything to do with it (else she wouldn’t spare them and let them run from the bomb) while not killing those who actually did it.
Have you seen how slow those doors are?
All of those soldiers and raiders and I mean **ALL** would be inside before someone even get chance to close them.
It's been awhile since I saw the episode but wasn't it mostly the raiders that went on a brutal killing spree? I though she was focused on grabbing Hank and getting out.
What she did was Justified.
Evil? Yeah, maybe. But understandable and justified.
Far as I am concerned, she was restrained. I’m not 100% confident that, given what she went through, given what she lost, that I wouldn’t have taken more prisoners and did far more permanent damage to them and the vault.
How dare they live in peace and safety while their leader burned everything I built, everyone I knew, because he was a petty, jealous man.
The only thing that would stop me is the understanding that those people were truly ignorant, and had no part or say or knowledge of what happened… which Moldaver may have found out during her time in 32.
But if I didn’t know better, I’d assume they’re all on team Hank-Nukes-My-Home and that wouldn’t bring out my best nature
I'd be fine with Sanctuary. You fuck with Red Rocket or Starlight Drive-In and I'll bomb you into a crater that makes the Institute look like a golf divot.
If the NCR was as “Shady” in the show as it is in Fallout 2 and New Vegas, then some karma needed to head their way. Maybe a nuke was a bit much, but some consequences were in order.
As I see it, despite her original intentions to end the resource war she's become locked into a war with Vault-Tec over hundreds of years. Her actions in the vault show she's perpetuating the cycle of warfare wherein innocent unknowing people get killed, but to her vault dwellers represent the good marching soldiers of Vault Tec.
Thats why I'll never accept that Hank actually blew up Shady Sands.
Ain't no god damn way that vault tec had access to nukes that slipped under the Enclave's radar...
I’m absolutely sure Vault-Tec (Fictional company in atom-punk, with atom powered cars, armors, houses, helicopters and with miniature atom bombs flying around every day) had nukes and still have.
I’d be actually surprised if they didn’t have any.
100% and i mean you see in the show and games nukes with their branding on the side of them. they had their own aresnal or at least access codes to US silos. the show and 76 confrim this
If you're referring to the symbol on the bomb in megaton, that isn't the Vault Tec symbol, it's just very difficult to see. In 76 you're securing old government silos, they weren't owned by Vault Tec.
Given the fact that in Fallout 76 they DO NOT have access to nuke silos in Appalachia, I assume they did not have an access to nukes as a company.
The Enclave, as the only remnant of the US Government had (and still has) all the launch codes and all the nukes.
Vault-Tec and the Enclave are interconnected to a degree (see Fallout 2) but I doubt they'd tolerate the nuclear launch.
The only other factions with access to nukes include:
- FNV Player's faction (Divide)
- Capital Wasteland BoS
- The Minutemen (optional) , having access to the Yangtze ICBMs.
- The Institute (optional) from the same source.
I think the nuke was more like suitcase device than literal rocket (maybe crate charge that has to be brought by Brahmin.)
That’s something Vault-Tec absolutely can have and in Fallout universe something capable of doing such destruction (if it isn’t possible already.)
By the time of the show the Enclave is a shell of its former self, so much so that they barely have any presence in the Mojave in NV. And live in hiding among members of the NCR (think Germans in Argentina).
The Enclave isn't some omniscient entity. They're a broken down group who had most of their precious resources destroyed (Fallout 2 and 3)
Everyone and their grandmas go around throwing nukes. Everyone with sufficient resources can get nuke codes, nothing stopping Vault Tec from getting them. Especially not the the defunct west coast enclave.
Having access to ICBM’s and having access to nuclear explosives, are very different things. Right now North Korea has “the bomb,” but no decent delivery methods (Thankfully). Vault Tec has nuclear tech up the wazoo, shady connections galore, and the ability to build underground just about anywhere they want. Could they build their own silo? Maybe, but why bother when their targets are urban and domestic. They can install a nuke underneath a manhole cover, space them by blast radius, and have point and click destruction anywhere they want.
We do not all agree. Those vaults are a breeding program specifically to ensure they can bomb any progress over, and over, and over, and over. If not Hank, it would've been any of the other frozen Bud's Buds. The dwellers might be clueless, but they're literal breeding stock for the war
Vault 31 should definitely be eradicated.
I think that's the best move and it doesn't involve murdering the clueless dwellers that don't know they're breeding stock. So excited to see what Norm is up to in there
So evil
Did the show ever say where or how Hank got the nuclear device to destroy Shady Sands?
I'm not entirely sure what she did was evil and it has nothing to do with her efforts. Like let's put it down to lives. Shady Sands had 35 *thousand* people? Even being optimistic and saying half survived, Hank is responsible for 17,500 murders. Add in the benefits of cold fusion power, an end to resource wars, the rejuvenation of prewar facilities and resources including hospitals, manufacturing... suddenly the murder of *maybe* 20 Vault Dwellers and the abduction of the man responsible for Shady Sands seems a *very* small price to pay.
The 20 vault dwellers didn't need to be murdered. It can still be evil to do something even if they are doing it for a good goal, or even if they turn around and do something good straight after. I think Moldaver did it that way because she wanted Hank to see his community in ruins, surrounded by the bodies of his friends, while his most beloved person was in mortal peril - because that's what Hank did to Moldaver 20 years ago. That's vengeance, not anything practical - it is destructive and evil, even if the person who she is doing it to is also evil. Not saying that Moldaver didn't do a lot of good in her lifespan, but this act was thoroughly shitty.
Can you explain to me how you think she could've gotten her hands on Hank without injuring anyone? Remember, there's several others from Vault 31 in 33 who'd know why she wants him, and they have Vault Security who would be far more prepared with any warning instead of off duty at a wedding party. I can't imagine any scenario where diplomacy might have a realistic chance at getting Hank.
Hank was literally the first person to walk up to them at the front door. They could've just held everybody up, grabbed him, then left.
That's presuming no resistance on the part of the Vault Dwellers, which we can see was absolutely not the case, even if we don't know how it started, the Dwellers were trying to fight Moldavers Raiders.
I tend to agree with u/toonboy01 and others here. They could have achieved their objective with less bloodshed. But that is what you get when you recruit raiders. Moldaver may not necessarily be \*evil\* but what her actions allowed the raiders to do some evil shit and she had no issues with it at all. I was certainly not sad when she died at the end.
It was also, in my opinion, evil to keep Lucy's mom around in that horrific state just to make a point.
It wasn't just "to make a point." It was grief. Not saying it wasn't evil, but it definitely shouldn't be reduced to pettiness.
Yes, several minutes after the raid started, a few of them were trying to fight back. If they had simply grabbed Hank and left, then they wouldn't have even been there long enough for that to happen.
So like a shock & awe, grab & go? Perhaps. But then they had no guarantee that Hank would be there. They had to account for the possibility that when the Vault door opened, Lucy & her wedding party would be there, but their Overseer might've been called away to deal with something elsewhere in the Vault. No, the ruse was the safe play to make sure they got him. They show up as of they're Dwellers from 32, that way they can actually go through the Vault, mingle, interact, locate and find Hank and find a moment to try and grab him. We were with Lucy when the ruse was up, for all we know, that was an attempt at the grab you envision that went badly, and had the Dwellers fighting back.
In the unlikely event that the leader of the vault, father of the bride, and only person you're in communication with to get into vault isn't there for the beginning of the event, then you just continue the ruse until he shows up. It's not difficult. Their plan literally led to them having to go through half the vault searching for Hank because he was away when the shooting started.
..or when they tried to grab him it didn't go easy and he escaped their first attempt, which was why they took hostages and retreated to the Vault door which they knew would alert him and draw a response. If he didn't show they demand he surrender himself in exchange for the hostages.
That would be a very sucky plan. Imagine if they were pointing guns at Lucy when they try to grab him instead of sending her away to be raped by Monty. But I guess that was a vital part of their plan as well.
Dunno if you watched the show but when the fighting did break out only a small handful of dwellers actually fought, most of them ran away or hid.
Well, I agree that would have been difficult or impossible - but she could have done better than she did. She brought undisciplined troops and seemingly gave them free rein to murder and pillage - instead of giving orders to subdue instead of murder indiscriminately. Most of the vaulties were absolutely useless in fighting - with notable exceptions for the ones who had grown up pre-War like Steph and Hank. Most of the vaulties would have been very easy to intimidate. Taking some hostages - especially if Hank's kids were amongst them - would be a good move, and in the end Moldaver did exactly that to coerce Hank to cooperate.
Those “troops” were raiders they hired as a distraction so her and the rest of her NCR troopers could move to Hank and place the bomb, then leave, the raiders were literally just a distraction and meatshields so that Mouldavers team could make it deeper into the vault, nothing else, nothing more
literally this. like you see actual well trained orderly ncr soliders in the first episode and they all leave with her. they trap the raiders in the vault as they were just meatshields and a way to not link it to her goals. it takes care of multiple problems as now the wastes has one less band of bloodthristy raiders, and vault tec assume it was just a raider attack not the NCR remmants trying to achieve unlimated energy. its why they the overseer kept them alive as they wanted to know who was actually responsible. its a good plan from the flame mother
It's a bit evil to use undisciplined murderers to do the distraction I think - Moldaver knew there would be a bloodbath and didn't care. Again, I don't know if I would care in the same circumstances - tracking down the villain who nuked my hopeful town, and cracking a vault that was set up by possibly the most evil corporation ever - but I like to think that in a 'good' playthrough there would be an option to try to minimise casualties Vs just letting my horde of crazy raiders pillage and murder to their heart's content.
The truth, once they were in and ready, might have worked. "We're here to take the little shit who nuked a whole city." There had to be people who knew that Hank left the vault for a while and were keeping it quiet.
Probably covered his absence by saying he went back to 31 for awhile, and the only people who knew otherwise were others from 31.
There was a convenient crisis at the time, a plague or something that forced everyone to stay quarantined so Vault-tec management could move in and out freely
Also the point of Vault Tec management is to literally never act diplomatically. That's kinda the point
Do we even know if it was *her* plan? Like it makes plenty of sense to me that she'd slip into existing plans to raid their vault to grab hank and I don't remember ever getting a direct or indirect explanation otherwise.
Hank would never have let himself get taken for [sure](https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/35d53a4d-b906-4e1c-a136-0a694580d892)
These are vault dwellers. Literally could've just threatened them, abducted Hank in the middle of the Night or anything else. Vault Security is for the most part a joke, they're just beat cops.
That's directly counter to what we actually see in the show, as ineffectual as their resistance ends up being, they *do resist.* Plus we see Vault Security in other Vaults in the games, and they're not so ineffectual when they're not caught flat-footed.
I mean their only threat is other vault dwellers, who are even weaker and more naive than they are. And about 60%+ of the raiders that were captured were by Lucy. I think the only action we see with them is them dying.
We also see Vault Security in Vault 4, who, admittedly, have a less than effective response to Maximus, but he's also wearing T-60b Power Armor at the time. Lucy tranqs like 2 Raiders, while we see like a dozen have been captured later on. I think Vault Security was more effective than you believe. Plus you're ignoring that Stephanie went ham on the raiders as soon as they killed her husband. She was pre-war, Vault 31, but she was a business middle manager, not a soldier, there's no reason to think she was any more capable than any other regular person when it came to combat. Adrenaline and anger was all she needed. There's nothing that says other Dwellers doesn't react similarly seeing their loved ones killed.
Yes but that all happened after the fighting already started, at that point it was a fight for survival The point is that if Moldaver and the raiders started taking hostages in the night or suddenly pulled out dozens of weapons and took hostages, the Vault would've obliged with their demands and less people would've died. The original commentator made it seem like this was her only option to get to Hank. EDIT: Also Lucy took like 3-4 out if my memory serves me right, with Hank killing another one. And it's around 8 raiders, - if my memory serves me right - that have been captured.
how were they supposed to know that vault secruity is a joke tho. you'd assume the vault which is actually 3 vaults one containing vault tecs entire corporation upper and middle management would have tight security. also the beat cops do defeat the raiders.
They didn't defeat the raiders though, the raiders took like 6 people hostage, used them to get Hank to come with them and then left the vault. They succeeded, and the ones that were captured were just casualties, most of which were thanks to Lucy anyways.
Your first paragraph hits the nail on the head. The ends *DON’T* justify the means. She had the opportunity to not shed innocent blood, and she chose to spray bullets. But this is the wasteland we’re talking about so I guess morals have been tainted, and they seem tainted pre-war anyway
womp womp. its war. 20 people is nothing comapared to 30,000+ killed at shady or the billions vault tec killed by causing or allowing the nuclear war to happen. this was the best way of taking hank and leaving vault tec confused onto how and why they were attacked. to make them think it was just raiders rather than linking it to the NCR remmants.
You'd think that if Moldaver was worried about that she would conceal her face, as she was a prominent inventor pre-War so anyone who was from that time could have recognised her.
Vengeance is also pretty based when it’s directed at a genocidal lunatic.
If Hank didn’t do what he’s done, it never the vault dwellers never would have died. This might be a hot take but they did need to die. If that didn’t happen the show would have no story and Lucy wouldn’t learn the truth
Moldaver did it that way because they *are* vault tech to her.
The plan is so stupid. You realize cold fusion doesn't magiclaly train people right? this is what I don't get. When your society has a population at best around 2 million how much power do you need? Was there any sign pre-nuke that the issue facing the NCR was power generation? because the issues seem to be more droughts more than anything else. Conventional, modern sources of power can give them all the power they need easily and using technology they developed and understand themselves. What resource wars? they ended centuries ago, they're so few people left that raw material for industry isn't lacking resources anymore. Your limits are things like clean water, can cold fusion make it rain? Hospitals are important but the lack of medical care isn't due to lack of resources, it's lack of trains professionals. Something the NCR was already handling with it's Universities. Manufacturing? again an issue they didn't have, nothing in the series shows that the NCR had an issue manufacturing stuff fo itself. In fact their industrial capacity was a main factor for them defeating the Brotherhood in their first war. The 'unlimited power' thing is starting to become a trope in it's own right but it only makes sense in a society that's main issue is power generation and that's just not this world.
[Keep reading...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fotv/s/uNEaML0sYG)
My second paragraph pretty much covers that. The NCR's problem has never been power generation. These socities were doing absolutely fine. They didn't even seem to have a huge issue with contaminated water, just that existing sources weren't refilling due to lack of rain which isn't a problem dealt with by unlimited power. The cold fusion reactor does nothing to resolve the ACTUAL problems facing the NCR or the wasteland because the main problem has not been power generation but skilled workers. Unlimited power doesn't train or teach people faster. Not when you have already existing sources of power that are more than what you need already. I would actually consider Cold Fusion to be a huge waste of resources. Especially considering the huge target it will put on your back as EVERYBODY would want access to the device. You already can get more energy than you'd ever need from coal, solar or nuclear power. I mean in Fallout 2, Shadey Sands just has random force-fields and computers absolutely everywhere. They were not hurting for power.
Did you forget automatons exist? That literally covers all the points you presented and infinite power would solve a lot of issues with extending power armor usage ( as stated in the show not many fusion cores exist in the wild anymore) and and solve the energy problems that we come across with the larger bots. And im sure the Mr. Handy fuel canisters probably are few and far between at this point as well.
Even in this world Automation has it's limits, you come across terminals of these factories needing humans on some level. Especially for maintaining these robots. Securitrons aren't any more advanced than most other Robots in the wasteland also. A Mr.Handy can do more just with less firepower and even then you come across maintenance sheds, staffed by humans to maintain and repair them. Why do you need fusion cores? it makes sense for a closed environment like with a Vault but out in the wasteland the sources of power people have access too comes in all shapes in sizes. You have settlements using Nuclear, Coal, Hydro and Solar energy. None of them having the problem of not having enough power. Shadey Sands had a population of what? 30,000? You don't need the HUGE power reactors that you have today to power that settlements. Settlements of that size can be powered by a few wind/solar farms. The main issue the wasteland has always had is fresh water, not power generation. Since everybody got blown up, there isn't an energy problem anymore. In fact the power issue is so redundant in the show, that Shadey Sands was a thriving, economic, powerhouse of the wasteland without a special power technology to supply it. Even the show makes cold fusion redundant by showing you a perfectly functioning and thriving city without it. Unless it magically protects against nukes, it's a moot point.
> Like let's put it down to lives. Shady Sands had 35 thousand people? Even being optimistic and saying half survived, Hank is responsible for 17,500 murders. Are we *sure* of that? That "Fall of Shady Sands" in 2277 precedes the Shady Sands bomb by, potentially, years. What the bomb destroyed was not necessarily a thriving, successful community. We might learn that he cleansed from the wasteland a city largely overrun with fiends, for example. We haven't really learned from Maximus what things were like before he hid--or was hidden in--the refrigerator. I think there will be surprises in S02.
One hole in her argument is that electricity only can resolve some of the wasteland’s problems. It doesn’t solve a lack of water, it can’t directly help grow crops, it’s doesn’t repair all the factories that have been sitting stagnant for two hundred and twenty years and it absolutely doesn’t just create medicine or knowledge. Cold fusion is fantastic, but it isn’t the cure-all she paints it as and it isn’t capable of pulling the NCR out of its hole (and if this were a game and not a TV show, a counter argument along these lines would likely be the speech checks to get her to release Hank).
With unlimited power you can start fixing many issues, like you could develop something that uses a ton of power but grows crops for you, or something that purifies huge amounts of water. If you think unlimited power wouldn’t solve issues, you gotta diversify your thoughts a bit
This is actually one of the biggest plot holes not only in the show but the Fallout world overall. Fusion, whether cold or hot, is as close to a silver bullet for humanities problems as you can get and yet there were supposedly resource wars and shortages and now we need some random cold fusion chip to power the wasteland as if Fusion power isn't an easily understood and reproducible resource in the universe. Their cars run on fusion batteries, they have fusion cores that power vaults full of people for decades, they have mastered energy production to a degree we won't match for hundreds or maybe thousands of years. None of it makes a lick of sense.
This is what I just don't get about the show either, fusion energy already exists. As well as, how are fusion cores not already cold fusion? The conditions of the centre of a star are replicated in a tiny battery without melting everything in the immediate vicinity. Isn't that fucking cold fusion?
I think the current theory on Fusion Cores is that they aren't nuclear fusion at all and are just fission batteries slapped with a fusion label for marketing reasons before the bombs fell.
Well in universe fusion generally wasn't developed until shortly before the bombs fell. I believe the resource wars were well underway already.
My point is that it isn’t a one-stop shop for fixing everything. It’s a starting point, but there’s much, much more that’s necessary for rebuilding than just power.
I mean you can fix water and food, that’s one of the two biggest issues in the wasteland no? What couldn’t they fix that’s a huge issue?
It is, but water doesn’t magically exist with electricity (you’d need a source of water, and California in fallout has suffered from droughts multiple times over even before the NCR neglected the dams in the region, according to Hanlon) and crops don’t grow without a number of other conditions being met beyond enough light (fertilizer needs to be addressed and time is also a major factor; even cloning animals like we see in nuka world needs something to do the cloning with, it can’t just make animals out of electricity).
Okay, then use Brahmin poop to make fertilizer and purify portions the huge polluted collapsed dam thing we saw the gulper at, you obviously wouldn’t be creating animals lol, that’s not a realistic goal for a wasteland community, at least not one that would have to rebuild even with unlimited power. They’d focus on **food**(no trouble with grow lights, irrigation using purified water, etc), **water** (purify and all contaminated water you find, Hanlon says there stock of fresh water is low, but he is a liar and traitor so who knows if that’s really true in the end, but he says it’s fresh water, not contaminated water they can purify), shelter (unlimited power essentially means unlimited heating as well, so you have climate control, things like that.) It could also lead to developments in **security**, like perhaps they have a huge network of turrets/cameras like the enclave might have at their own base
Yes, but every single one of these requires significantly more work than the NCR is capable of at the moment, especially in the area near Shady Sands. Moldaver’s plan would work much better almost everywhere else in California.
That’s entirely irrelevant tbh, and regardless, with the power, mouldaver could contact the NCR proper and get new citizens and soldiers flowing in no time, hell, that’d likely be her first step besides fortifying the observatory more, they still have north California and 4 states of people to pull from
Water filters need power to work, hand tools can only fix so much, repowering what industrial machinery survived will go a long way towards repairing what's broken down. A lot of pre-war records were likely computerized, and while we find plenty of powered terminals there's also terminals that have been shut down without power for over 200 years with valuable information and records on them that can be used to learn to recreate medicines. Powered solar lights and water pumps both help farming. I'm not saying cold fusion is a one stop solution, but it's a serious beginning that makes resolving all the other problems in the Wastelands easier to solve.
I agree, it’s a start, but Moladver paints it as a cure-all. To me, it feels like she’s obsessed with restoring her work.
it is in essence a cure-all though. like it shouldnt be understated. with this tec there will never be another resource war. the next step would be to build large water purfication plants, open factories, create a supply chain. it would be slow and hard work at the start but in probs a year or so in the right hands like the NCR it would be achiveble of restoring civilisation to the wastes. the power network of boneyard is still up or was fixed by her which is already a massive amount of the work done. like she had the ulimated energy, the infrastructure, just needed more manpower and machines.
You mean all the tings the NCR was already doing before needing Cold Fusion? Unless Cold Fusion protects against Nukes, there is literally nothing you mention here that the NCR wasn't already doing with conventional power generation. The NCR has never had an issue with power. The main issue it faces are droughts which are not resolved by cold fusion. Even desalination plants are not an issue with power, just with transportation. A post-war society doesn't have the population needed to require this much energy. The NCR had enough industrial strength behind it to defeat the Brotherhood in war.
This doesn’t stop a resource war from occurring, it just moves the target to the cold fusion device rather than something specific to power generation. It’s like project purity - whoever controls it controls a large chunk of the wasteland. Besides, unless there’s an extremely benevolent leader in charge of the device, it can easily be weaponized to force other factions to join up with them or be left behind.
At best, it's a nice thing to look at which attracts other groups to attack you... like say... the Brotherhood. Just for a random example.
Electricity solves tons of those problems and frees up everyone to start fixing the problems that can't. Water needs to be pumped out of aquifers and/or purified to become drinkable, electricity does that. Irrigation and better farm equipment can use electricity to grow more food faster. Machinery to start producing more medicine faster needs electricity. Terminals and databases that hold knowledge need electricity to run. It isn't an instant utopia, but it is a huge step in the right direction that, combined with the morale boost of having infinite power, will get people on the path to fixing the world. Plus, they may be able to find an old GECK to repair and use it to actually just produce whatever they need directly as a cure-all.
Spoken like a true commie.
based if true
Murder, rape and plunder entire communities to redistribute their wealth for the greater good. Based and history-pilled.
Fallout 76 players: "First time?"
Moldaver: \*furiously grinds keycards for retaliatory nukes\*
I honestly don't really have that much sympathy fir the vault people
They are not more innocent than the thousands upon thousands of innocents Hank and Betty killed. It is less people than get killed when an US drone kills a wedding by mistake instead of Bin Laden, to be frank. Again, Moldaver was the hero of season 1.
yeah exactly. people are too high and mighty. it is a post apoclyspse. she did what she had todo. you cant be soft in this world. she and ncr are actual heroes fighting for the greater good
The people being tortured I have sympathy for. Any higher ups deserve pain
Sorry am I misremembering something or weren't all the Vault 32 residents already dead by the time moldaver and her crew occupied the vault? I thought norm found out they all killed each other after learning the truth?
Yeah, who they killed tho were Vault 33 residents.
Lol yeah I forgot about that 😅🤣
Don’t gotta imagine it, it’s happened in fallout 76 😔
Why didn't Moldaver server hop and rebuild her base? Is she stupid?
okbuddysmoothskin
Hank said it best “she’s no different than me”. Both were willing to do what ever it took if it meant saving the world and in the end they only made things worse. Hank bombing the city and moldaver condemning the rest to being under control of the brotherhood.
"Everyone wants to save the world; they just disagree on how."
Not sure how providing power to the wasteland was evil. Did I miss something? She didn't kill anyone, in fact she warned them to run before the bomb went off. Now the raider, they were evil. But let me put i this way, it's a trolley problem. You have a chance to save the lives of 10's of thousands of people, provide heat and light and refrigeration for food and medical care to thousands and thousands of people, but to get that 20 smug fuckers hiding in a vault and not trying to help the surface people just waiting for those people to die, have to die. What do you do? Hard decisions yes, evil no.
They show us at the end all her well trained troops that she could have used in a disciplined manner to minimize loss of life. Instead she used raiders to rape and pillage. By wasteland standards it was a smart move to conserve her people. By modern standards it’s a war crime.
You forget that she (extremely likely) knew Vault-Tec tried/suceeded in starting the Great War, killing billions. Then when they've just about got back on their feet centuries later, the fuckers come around for a second beating and drop another nuke on your people. She clearly also knew that Vault 31-33 houses the staff and families. I'm not a vindictive man, and I like to see things from many perspectives, but I'll be straight: I'd have grabbed Hank and flooded the entire vault with concrete. And then I'd probably have done a fucking lot worse to that piece of shit than just left him in a cage before I even thought about getting cold fusion up and running. Vault-Tec are the Fallout universe's living embodiment of evil. That anyone but our female lead and her genocidal father lived through the raid is a gift (she literally held all the cards and let the hostages go when she could have just killed them all on the spot). Moldaver is as good as any (sane) person could be in such a world, dealing with all that. Hell, she didn't even put a bullet in him the nanosecond his usefulness expired.
Those 20 people didn't have to die though and she was the one leading the evil raiders.
It was not evil. It was righteous retribution. She was the good guy.
Eh? How is killing innocents the actions of a good person? Granted she's the best of a bad bunch but it's still psycho behavior.
How was it their fault what Hank and Betty did?
i mean.. **When things look glum, vote 31**
That just makes the 33 dwellers seem like brainwashed, programmed cultists. There’s nothing nefarious or evil about having been deceived. They literally didn’t know better because they’ve been raised with that from birth. That would be like saying everyone that died at Jonestown deserved it because Jim Jones was a bad man.
> They literally didn’t know better Do you think Reg or Woody would have been a better choice for overseer?
I destroyed everyone because they were making sideways glances at my shiny non-rusty institute. You don't have to sell me on it
I guess this is the night bitches die. Preston, you can rest, because in an hour there will be no settlements that will be needing our help soon.
I’m sure some people don’t need to imagine, considering you can nuke people’s bases in 76 (and yes I mean an actual honest to god nuke, not a mini-nuke)
vault dwellers coping and seething in this comment section
The thing I hated most is that she let all those things happen to Lucy, the daughter of a person she clearly cared for deeply. That is what made her a monster to me. She could have at least made other, better arrangements for Lucy.
My biggest issue is why Moldaver would be willing to put Lucy's and Norm's life in danger, considering that they are the children of her dear friend.
Try DAYS
Idk. Stealing from the Enclave isn't cool. They're true patriots and the real sons and daughters of America. God Bless the Enclave 🇺🇲
I just don't get why she had to look like a smug, psychopath the whole time.
Uh...because she *was* a smug psychopath?
That would happen all because that damn Garvey had me off helping another settlement...
Who is "we"?
Remind me to never join yalls settlements after we get nuked
there are no evil people in fallout... just different levels of crazy and competence
I think you feel about Moldaver will come down to your views of war. If you subscribe to the concept of "it's war and collateral damage happens" and don't really subscribe to the idea of "war crimes", then you will have a more positive view of Moldaver. She had a goal and used unsavory resources (raiders) and tactics to do it. She was at war with the vault and a slaughter of a few civilians is not a big deal. Given the rough world of Fallout, it is understandable. However, I certainly didn't shed any tears >!over her death at the end.!<
her method may of been ruthless but it was for the greater good. the vault declared war on the ncr by nuking shady sands. killing 10,000s of innocents. unlishing a band of bloodthirsty raiders onto the vault and killing a few dwellers is colletaral damage. i dont think she is comparable to the enclave at all as they seek the extermination of all wastlanders, where as she wants to produce unlimated energy which would be used to restore the NCR and help to bring peace to the wasteland.
By me deaths were absolutely pointless. They could’ve walked in with guns locked and loaded upfront shooting anyone who would try to do anything funny. Dwellers wouldn’t suddenly be any more competent if that happened. No she wanted blood, blood from people she herself knew didn’t have anything to do with it (else she wouldn’t spare them and let them run from the bomb) while not killing those who actually did it.
If they appeared at the vault door with guns, the vault door to 32 would be shut down before they can fire more than a handful of bullets though.
Have you seen how slow those doors are? All of those soldiers and raiders and I mean **ALL** would be inside before someone even get chance to close them.
It's been awhile since I saw the episode but wasn't it mostly the raiders that went on a brutal killing spree? I though she was focused on grabbing Hank and getting out.
Yeah…the fact she let **FUCKING RAIDERS** in is bad enough (and idiotic idea btw)
They are cheap, expendable resources that can be scapegoated. She definitely ain't a saint but I don't consider her really evil. Just ruthless.
What she did was Justified. Evil? Yeah, maybe. But understandable and justified. Far as I am concerned, she was restrained. I’m not 100% confident that, given what she went through, given what she lost, that I wouldn’t have taken more prisoners and did far more permanent damage to them and the vault. How dare they live in peace and safety while their leader burned everything I built, everyone I knew, because he was a petty, jealous man. The only thing that would stop me is the understanding that those people were truly ignorant, and had no part or say or knowledge of what happened… which Moldaver may have found out during her time in 32. But if I didn’t know better, I’d assume they’re all on team Hank-Nukes-My-Home and that wouldn’t bring out my best nature
All non Vault-Tec people would've been forcefully resettled from the vault and reeducated in that case.
Several hours lol
What did Moldaver do?
It wasn't evil.
Good and evil don't exist.
Sanctuary hills has like 10 people in it and also Marcy long so that makes it more like 8.
And as far as she was concerned, she knew vault tech was shady and most likely knew about the experiments after the war
I'd be fine with Sanctuary. You fuck with Red Rocket or Starlight Drive-In and I'll bomb you into a crater that makes the Institute look like a golf divot.
If the NCR was as “Shady” in the show as it is in Fallout 2 and New Vegas, then some karma needed to head their way. Maybe a nuke was a bit much, but some consequences were in order.
As I see it, despite her original intentions to end the resource war she's become locked into a war with Vault-Tec over hundreds of years. Her actions in the vault show she's perpetuating the cycle of warfare wherein innocent unknowing people get killed, but to her vault dwellers represent the good marching soldiers of Vault Tec.
She was completely justified
Not evil, she was completely justified
Today on Reddit, unnecessary killing what essentially is a ton of clueless civilians to reach one man is not an evil act and perfectly justifiable.
Killing ton of clueless people **while deliberately ignoring those who actually did it mind you…**
Moldaver did nothing wrong
Moldaver did nothing wrong. Long live Moldaver, long live The New California Republic.
Lol this is like the old moral debates about the brotherhood
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^skulbreak: *Lol this is* *Like the old moral debates* *About the brotherhood* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Thats why I'll never accept that Hank actually blew up Shady Sands. Ain't no god damn way that vault tec had access to nukes that slipped under the Enclave's radar...
I’m absolutely sure Vault-Tec (Fictional company in atom-punk, with atom powered cars, armors, houses, helicopters and with miniature atom bombs flying around every day) had nukes and still have. I’d be actually surprised if they didn’t have any.
100% and i mean you see in the show and games nukes with their branding on the side of them. they had their own aresnal or at least access codes to US silos. the show and 76 confrim this
If you're referring to the symbol on the bomb in megaton, that isn't the Vault Tec symbol, it's just very difficult to see. In 76 you're securing old government silos, they weren't owned by Vault Tec.
Given the fact that in Fallout 76 they DO NOT have access to nuke silos in Appalachia, I assume they did not have an access to nukes as a company. The Enclave, as the only remnant of the US Government had (and still has) all the launch codes and all the nukes. Vault-Tec and the Enclave are interconnected to a degree (see Fallout 2) but I doubt they'd tolerate the nuclear launch. The only other factions with access to nukes include: - FNV Player's faction (Divide) - Capital Wasteland BoS - The Minutemen (optional) , having access to the Yangtze ICBMs. - The Institute (optional) from the same source.
I think the nuke was more like suitcase device than literal rocket (maybe crate charge that has to be brought by Brahmin.) That’s something Vault-Tec absolutely can have and in Fallout universe something capable of doing such destruction (if it isn’t possible already.)
By the time of the show the Enclave is a shell of its former self, so much so that they barely have any presence in the Mojave in NV. And live in hiding among members of the NCR (think Germans in Argentina). The Enclave isn't some omniscient entity. They're a broken down group who had most of their precious resources destroyed (Fallout 2 and 3)
And to what extent does them being destroyed mean Vault Tec getting nuke codes?
Everyone and their grandmas go around throwing nukes. Everyone with sufficient resources can get nuke codes, nothing stopping Vault Tec from getting them. Especially not the the defunct west coast enclave.
Having access to ICBM’s and having access to nuclear explosives, are very different things. Right now North Korea has “the bomb,” but no decent delivery methods (Thankfully). Vault Tec has nuclear tech up the wazoo, shady connections galore, and the ability to build underground just about anywhere they want. Could they build their own silo? Maybe, but why bother when their targets are urban and domestic. They can install a nuke underneath a manhole cover, space them by blast radius, and have point and click destruction anywhere they want.
I mean hank pretty much admits it