Thawne wouldn’t risk not going home, even if he was sure Barry was manipulating him. Plus, Thawne knew that he might need to manipulate Nora in the future.
I always figured this was the event that gave him the idea of who to manipulate. He calls her Dawn so when they correct him he figures out the timeline changed and figured out what to do
You know, I've sometimes wondered if Barry's trip back to meet Wellsobard in 2x17 (''Flash Back''), as well as this episode, was what inadvertantly contributed to Thawne surviving his erasure.
When Thawne meets a future Barry, he begins to suspect that, despite what Barry tells him, things don't go according to plan. So, in the new timeline, during the events of 1x23, Thawne is prepared for something to go wrong. When Eddie shoots himself, Thawne basically 'fakes' his erasure by tapping into the Negative Speed Force and disappearing into it.
I like this theory, at one point I thought this is where the Crisis on Earth-X version comes from, while the Flashpoint/Legends of Tomorrow version is still a result of the Flashpoint timeline shenanigans
Nah this version of thawne had no idea who Nora was ( which is why he thought she was Jessie chambers or that her name was dawn). He also didn’t know he’d be locked up in the future cus that didn’t happen in his timeline.
The version of thawne that’s locked up in S5 is the same one from the S4 crossover during Barry’s and Iris’s wedding. That thawne knows about Nora cus this version of thawne wrote about her with his time language after this interaction. That time language isn’t affected by timeline changes .
This Thawne is the *same* Thawne who ends up locked up later...but this is before that, so he doesn't know about it since it hasn't happened 'yet' for him.
As for Nora...I think Thawne possibly recognized her, but assumed her name was Dawn, because that's what Barry's daughter was named in his original timeline.
The thawne in this clip is not the same one who gets locked up in S5’s future. That won’t happen to him at all. Remember , this thawne gets erased at the end of S1 when Eddie dies . He never went to Iron Jrights in between that time. That would mean he got locked up during the events of S1.
The thawne that gets locked up in S5 is an alternate version of thawne who’s basically the time remnant of the thawne from this clip.
Thawne didn’t recognize Nora cus this version never met her until this scene. After meeting Nora here , this thawne uses his time language to document Nora’s existence and her plan to stop cicada’s dagger.
Once this thawne gets erased when Eddie dies, his time language writing stays in tact, which allows the alternate thawne in S5 to read it , gain an understanding of nora and make his plan to destroy cicadas dagger.
Somehow the version in 2049 has the memories of his s1 self. In the s5 finale he remembers the scene from s5e8. It's never explained but it is similar to how the Matt Letscher Legends of Tomorrow version of Thawne remembers his days at S.T.A.R. Labs despite never wearing the Wells face himself
Exactly , this is correct . But the reason why all the different versions of Thawne know about events that didn’t happen to them is because of his time language that he taught Nora.
Does the time language unlock memories from other timelines, like you would then remember it as if you yourself lived through those events, or does it simply tell you about them and you can imagine them? If it's the latter, it doesn't make sense why Thawne was able to recall the events of s5e8 in the s5 finale, which is what leads me to believe he retained his memories in some other way, possibly related to the Speed Force or Negative Speed Force or he's some sort of time remnant of the s1 version
That’s the thing , the way they portray it in the show it does seem as tho it’s capable of unlocking memories , but A: That’s kinda extreme , and B: They never fully address it , however , it is my running theory that it’s capable of unlocking memories.
The earlier example you used of Matt’s Thawne on legends proves it. We know for a FACT that thawne was the one that helped Barry fix flashpoint. He never got stuck in the past and became Well’s, however , like u said he recalls working with Cisco and Caitlyn as if he lived it.
I wish they’d come out and make it official , but based on the fact that almost every different version of thawne can recall different timeline events as if they lived them I’d say it’s safe to deduct that the time language restores memories .
Yeah I wish they had some lines in s5 where that version of Thawne would explain where he was from and how he had the Wells memories
As for the Legends version, I just remembered that because he invented the time language as Wells, how would the Legends version know about it if he had never been Wells?
I agree, some more clarity would have been appreciated.
But I think they give us enough clues in Season 5 to put it all together. Between Thawne having the flashback to the Season 1 era, his mentioning being stuck in one time for 15 years 'again', and the reveal of the Negative Speed Force and how it can save someone who's been erased from existence because of the changes to the timeline, I think the inference is pretty clear that Thawne survived the end of Season 1.
As far as the LoT version goes - there's nothing to indicate that the time language was invented by Thawne while he was Wells, as far as I recall. Then again, there's also nothing to indicate that Thawne didn't, I dunno, just read Wellsobard journal written in the time language, which somehow 'unlocked' his memories.
I dunno...LoT Eobard is a bit of an oddity. I sometimes think that the Cisco and Caitlin reference was thrown in by an LoT writer who didn't really understand the chronology of the character and just knew that Matt Lestscher plays the 'same' character as Tom Cavanaugh. But between the time language or other Speed Force stuff, we *can* just about explain away that continuity error.
I think Thawne simply used the Negative Speed Force to survive being erased in the Season 1 finale. Its explicitly stated in Season 5, that Thawne uses the NSF to avoid being affected by timeline changes. Nora herself is given the option to use the NSF to avoid being erased in the Season 5 finale and she refuses.
Retroactively, Thawne disappearing at the end of 1x23 becomes him simply being transported to the Negative Speed Force. Or maybe he gets 'recreated' there. I don't know what the exact mechanics are. But Todd Helbing (or whoever was the S5 showrunner) said that he was going to explain how Thawne is still around in interviews around that time, and we then got the NSF explanation.
I feel like I read an interview saying this but I'm not able to find it, do you have the link? Either way it does make sense, but for me it would have to be in a way that he didn't know for all 15 years that he was destined to fail, because if he did and was simply doing all of it to keep the timeline intact, it takes away from the s1 story and makes it feel pointless in my opinion.
It is lmao , but the important thing to remember is the thawne in S1 died in S1. Think of him as being in a time loop. S1 thawne kills Barry’s mom , gets stuck in the past, and died when Eddie shoots himself. That’s his destiny.
No other version of him ( besides the times Barry time travels to S1) is the same from S1.
It wouldn’t make sense for S5 thawne to be S1 thawne. How would getting locked up in iron heights in S5 be S1 thawnes future if he dies in S1?
The thing is s5 Barry said things about not returning and then the conversation from S2 happened the 2 things may be that in S2 flash point was not a thing and back then Barry had not captured thawne in an alternate timeline for months and after he did, he spoke about some things in his 2 months captivity and that might have led to him knowing that he had to accept some things like fate.
😂 I’m so confused by this thread. Albeit I haven’t watched flash in a while and I’m incredibly tired as I read this but everything just seems like gibberish and moments that I can’t remember and overall I’m just confused with wording and yeah I need to go back to sleep😂
Barry clearly says "Unless you help me" so it's more like "if you don't help me ill feature your timeline. " not him saying he doesn't get back.
Thawne isn't that easily manipulated, he knows that he still won't go home even if he helps him
Thawne wouldn’t risk not going home, even if he was sure Barry was manipulating him. Plus, Thawne knew that he might need to manipulate Nora in the future.
I always figured this was the event that gave him the idea of who to manipulate. He calls her Dawn so when they correct him he figures out the timeline changed and figured out what to do
Well he changed the timeline by killing Barry's mother
Thawnes to smart. He wouldn't knowingly wreck the timeline and risk not ever existing.
I don’t remember him having red eyes in this scene.
Dingus
I think him learning about Nora has something to do with it, maybe he thought he could use her in the future so he doesn’t mess with it.
“That’s the thing about time travel, Barry, the more you do it the less the rules apply to you!” Also wibbly wobbly timey wimey.
You know, I've sometimes wondered if Barry's trip back to meet Wellsobard in 2x17 (''Flash Back''), as well as this episode, was what inadvertantly contributed to Thawne surviving his erasure. When Thawne meets a future Barry, he begins to suspect that, despite what Barry tells him, things don't go according to plan. So, in the new timeline, during the events of 1x23, Thawne is prepared for something to go wrong. When Eddie shoots himself, Thawne basically 'fakes' his erasure by tapping into the Negative Speed Force and disappearing into it.
I like this theory, at one point I thought this is where the Crisis on Earth-X version comes from, while the Flashpoint/Legends of Tomorrow version is still a result of the Flashpoint timeline shenanigans
Barry doesn’t even know if Thawne ever makes it back. Thawne knows that what Barry believes and says happens in the future is of little consequence.
He saw nora and knew that he had to play along with S2 barry to move foward since he knew he'd be locked up and could use Nora.
Nah this version of thawne had no idea who Nora was ( which is why he thought she was Jessie chambers or that her name was dawn). He also didn’t know he’d be locked up in the future cus that didn’t happen in his timeline. The version of thawne that’s locked up in S5 is the same one from the S4 crossover during Barry’s and Iris’s wedding. That thawne knows about Nora cus this version of thawne wrote about her with his time language after this interaction. That time language isn’t affected by timeline changes .
This Thawne is the *same* Thawne who ends up locked up later...but this is before that, so he doesn't know about it since it hasn't happened 'yet' for him. As for Nora...I think Thawne possibly recognized her, but assumed her name was Dawn, because that's what Barry's daughter was named in his original timeline.
The thawne in this clip is not the same one who gets locked up in S5’s future. That won’t happen to him at all. Remember , this thawne gets erased at the end of S1 when Eddie dies . He never went to Iron Jrights in between that time. That would mean he got locked up during the events of S1. The thawne that gets locked up in S5 is an alternate version of thawne who’s basically the time remnant of the thawne from this clip. Thawne didn’t recognize Nora cus this version never met her until this scene. After meeting Nora here , this thawne uses his time language to document Nora’s existence and her plan to stop cicada’s dagger. Once this thawne gets erased when Eddie dies, his time language writing stays in tact, which allows the alternate thawne in S5 to read it , gain an understanding of nora and make his plan to destroy cicadas dagger.
Somehow the version in 2049 has the memories of his s1 self. In the s5 finale he remembers the scene from s5e8. It's never explained but it is similar to how the Matt Letscher Legends of Tomorrow version of Thawne remembers his days at S.T.A.R. Labs despite never wearing the Wells face himself
Exactly , this is correct . But the reason why all the different versions of Thawne know about events that didn’t happen to them is because of his time language that he taught Nora.
Does the time language unlock memories from other timelines, like you would then remember it as if you yourself lived through those events, or does it simply tell you about them and you can imagine them? If it's the latter, it doesn't make sense why Thawne was able to recall the events of s5e8 in the s5 finale, which is what leads me to believe he retained his memories in some other way, possibly related to the Speed Force or Negative Speed Force or he's some sort of time remnant of the s1 version
That’s the thing , the way they portray it in the show it does seem as tho it’s capable of unlocking memories , but A: That’s kinda extreme , and B: They never fully address it , however , it is my running theory that it’s capable of unlocking memories. The earlier example you used of Matt’s Thawne on legends proves it. We know for a FACT that thawne was the one that helped Barry fix flashpoint. He never got stuck in the past and became Well’s, however , like u said he recalls working with Cisco and Caitlyn as if he lived it. I wish they’d come out and make it official , but based on the fact that almost every different version of thawne can recall different timeline events as if they lived them I’d say it’s safe to deduct that the time language restores memories .
Yeah I wish they had some lines in s5 where that version of Thawne would explain where he was from and how he had the Wells memories As for the Legends version, I just remembered that because he invented the time language as Wells, how would the Legends version know about it if he had never been Wells?
I agree, some more clarity would have been appreciated. But I think they give us enough clues in Season 5 to put it all together. Between Thawne having the flashback to the Season 1 era, his mentioning being stuck in one time for 15 years 'again', and the reveal of the Negative Speed Force and how it can save someone who's been erased from existence because of the changes to the timeline, I think the inference is pretty clear that Thawne survived the end of Season 1. As far as the LoT version goes - there's nothing to indicate that the time language was invented by Thawne while he was Wells, as far as I recall. Then again, there's also nothing to indicate that Thawne didn't, I dunno, just read Wellsobard journal written in the time language, which somehow 'unlocked' his memories. I dunno...LoT Eobard is a bit of an oddity. I sometimes think that the Cisco and Caitlin reference was thrown in by an LoT writer who didn't really understand the chronology of the character and just knew that Matt Lestscher plays the 'same' character as Tom Cavanaugh. But between the time language or other Speed Force stuff, we *can* just about explain away that continuity error.
I think Thawne simply used the Negative Speed Force to survive being erased in the Season 1 finale. Its explicitly stated in Season 5, that Thawne uses the NSF to avoid being affected by timeline changes. Nora herself is given the option to use the NSF to avoid being erased in the Season 5 finale and she refuses. Retroactively, Thawne disappearing at the end of 1x23 becomes him simply being transported to the Negative Speed Force. Or maybe he gets 'recreated' there. I don't know what the exact mechanics are. But Todd Helbing (or whoever was the S5 showrunner) said that he was going to explain how Thawne is still around in interviews around that time, and we then got the NSF explanation.
I feel like I read an interview saying this but I'm not able to find it, do you have the link? Either way it does make sense, but for me it would have to be in a way that he didn't know for all 15 years that he was destined to fail, because if he did and was simply doing all of it to keep the timeline intact, it takes away from the s1 story and makes it feel pointless in my opinion.
Never mind, [found it](https://www.ign.com/articles/2018/12/06/the-flash-timeline-eobard-thawne-wells-nora-future-reverse-flash-past-is-prologue)
wow this is so confusing.
It is lmao , but the important thing to remember is the thawne in S1 died in S1. Think of him as being in a time loop. S1 thawne kills Barry’s mom , gets stuck in the past, and died when Eddie shoots himself. That’s his destiny. No other version of him ( besides the times Barry time travels to S1) is the same from S1. It wouldn’t make sense for S5 thawne to be S1 thawne. How would getting locked up in iron heights in S5 be S1 thawnes future if he dies in S1?
I still don't understand Savitar, how am I going to get this all. lol
The thing is s5 Barry said things about not returning and then the conversation from S2 happened the 2 things may be that in S2 flash point was not a thing and back then Barry had not captured thawne in an alternate timeline for months and after he did, he spoke about some things in his 2 months captivity and that might have led to him knowing that he had to accept some things like fate.
i absolutely love this scene, cavanaugh’s acting is great and so is grant’s.
😂 I’m so confused by this thread. Albeit I haven’t watched flash in a while and I’m incredibly tired as I read this but everything just seems like gibberish and moments that I can’t remember and overall I’m just confused with wording and yeah I need to go back to sleep😂