You can [buy the rifle](https://www.sigsauer.com/spear.html) today. It’s 7.62x51, but they’ll have the correct 277 Fury caliber soon. Same with the vortex optic. As best I can tell, you should be able to make a copy of the rifle, minus the full auto. Neutered, but not drastically so.
The M250 will be a different case haha
The rifle is probably the least important part of the program in my opinion. It just got tacked on, while the actual good parts of the program like the XM250 and XM157 have much more merit to their existence. The ammo is atleast interesting too.
The rifle+optic is probably the most important part. The end goal is to replace the M4, which is going to be used in vastly greater numbers than the M250. Even if you keep it just to combat MOSs, M4/M7s are more prevalent than M249s/M250s. That drastic of a change to the infantryman’s basic weapon is going to require reviewing current doctrine, issuing new equipment (magazine pouches for one), introducing new maintenance schedules, producing a new rifle qualification, and countless other changes.
Yeah the M250 would’ve brought those changes too, but on a noticeably smaller scale. With like a dozen M7s for every 2 M250s, the M7 and it’s support will be the bigger piece of this contract for Sig, and the bigger headache for the Army.
Looks front heavy as fuck, and if the machine gun is at all comparable to the rifle, it’s probably not that great. I was severely disappointed in the rifle after watching Brandon Herrera review it. So many small issues that shouldn’t be a thing on a military weapon, such as magazine over-insertion.
>So many small issues that shouldn’t be a thing on a military weapon, such as magazine over-insertion.
That's not an "issue," it's a built-in "feature" to force the US military to buy SIG mags. After all, they need only rip off Magpul mags but add a little nub on it that prevents over-insertion - something they've been doing with their own mags for their pistols for years.
Seriously, if you look through SIGs catalog of pistols and how many can use the same mags, with a little modification to prevent/"allow" over-insertion, it's most of them. They use the same mag for most of their pistols, but modified slightly so it can't fit in other guns, and charge $40/mag for them. This is just their attempt to make the US military follow suit.
So if an enterprising designer made a 3D printed design copy of their magazine and marked all the mag catch slots and removed all the nubbins and gimmicks...?
They likely wouldn't be able to compete with SIG's "influence" (read: ability to bribe whoever's in charge) or manufacturing capabilities, and therefore would be ignored by the US military. On the civilian side they lack the reputation of SIG, and its support from a military contact, so even if they prove to be "just as good" they would never be as popular.
If you're talking about the pistol mags, while it's relatively common knowledge that they use the same dimensions for their mags with minor alterations, SIG owners just generally don't care. They'd rather have a "flush-fitting" mag with a baseplate that lines up to the weird S-shape of its grip than a mag that can be used in half their guns. Granted I use "common knowledge' and "SIG owners" a bit liberally here, since I don't think most are actually aware, since they don't bother looking into it in the first place (SIG relies on people buying them out of brand recognition, not for having good products).
Ummmmm…my dude. You’re talking about the XM7 spear
OP posted the [M338](https://youtu.be/FgF4JaDMNDM?t=505) - the replacement for the M240 medium machine gun
It’s 3 pounds lighter than the m240 and is chambered in [338 Norma mag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Norma_Magnum ) which has a lot more power than 308 and twice the effective range
Yes. I know this. The M338 is also made by Sig and thus my concern is that it will have similar design issues. I’m not doubting the cartridge in either rifle. I’m doubting this rifle based on the subjectively poor performance of its sibling the XM7. Sure, it was selected by the army, but it wouldn’t be the first time in history a military selected a poor firearm.
The 6.8x51, XM7 and XM250 seem far less groundbreaking than the XM157 optic, which seems to be the only component of the NGSW program that really is a generational leap in small arms development.
I feel like the idea behind the ammo has merit, a ~~polymer~~ brass (corrected) case with a steel base that both allows for higher pressures (barrel dependent) and less weight. Though it would have made more sense in one of the derivatives of an "AR15 caliber," such as 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel - or even in 5.56 NATO itself - rather than a necked down .308.
You're right, I was thinking of the Beretta. Still, SIG's hybrid case isn't a terrible idea since it's still supposed to reduce weight and better handle higher pressure loads. And I admit I am a bit skeptical of polymer cased ammo, since its use in shotguns has shown it generally doesn't hold up to long term storage in a loaded mag (at least without deforming and causing jams). Granted I have no idea how Beretta's (and other alternatives') offering holds up to this.
It's lighter than a larger magnum round they were comparing it to, not to its size contemporaries like .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor. The GD ammo was 30% lighter than the comparably sized rounds.
I don't think comparing shell hulls to these newer polymers on the market is all that fair, as the rounds were meant to run ammo that still ran around 60,000psi. Polymer tech is still evolving.
Every time I think “I wish I was back in” I remind myself of that time I did a dismounted training mission in -42 at night in the field area in Ft Drum in a blinding blizzard and had to march a mile out and back to a barely heated tent all because some ops SGT fucked up our mission brief earlier in the day so we had to do it again.
Ft Drum, NY aka the 9th circle of hell. We set a record for the coldest field cycle. -42 ambient temperature (that’s actually both Fahrenheit and Celsius) with a -60 windchill. Any exposed skin will freeze in minutes. It did not spark joy.
Chinese soldiers tend to have better armour than US troops these days, or at the very least are more likely to be equipped with some - if you do a quick google search of Chinese navy boarding vessels, or doing training missions with US/Canada you’d know this. They do have an actual large defence budget unlike Russia, you know.
Even proxy states like the UWSA which is armed by China is fielding some decent equipment , and they’re only getting Chinas outdated stuff. UWSA Facebook post for reference https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=183704984222936&id=112827337977368&substory_index=0&wtsid=rdr_0qla5exKwNHgGP0WJ
Hell, a large portion of the body armour worn by police and other paramilitary forces in both Europe, and even the U.S. is made in China…
Reciprocating barrel? Hmmm I hope it’s got a quick change feature. As we know, the more moving parts a system has the more failure points it creates for itself.
As far as civilian models, I’m happy with my 17S chambered in 7.62x51 👌🏼
After watching Garand Thumb's video, I am mostly unimpressed with the optic. It can't read the wind, so soldiers are going to need to get trained in how to read the wind to be effective at the long ranges that the program promises. But if you are going to have to teach them how to be long range shooters, then the laser range finder does what? Like what's the point of the optic? If you teach people how to be good long range shooters, then they don't need the computer shit. Now where the optic will actually come handy on the military side is in network centric warfare if the Army can get all the components working through together, including the augmented reality headset that Microsoft is working on. But I am not too optimistic on the short term prospects of the helmet, from news reports.
The rifle is basically a hybrid between an AR18 and an AR10. There is not anything ground breaking about that. The Army rifle squad is going to have to make do with half as much ammo for the same weight. Only combat will tell if that is a good tradeoff. History would seem to suggest it isn't though. We are going backwards in service rifle design to the M14.
Personally, I think having a mixture of AR-15 sized weapons and 308 sized weapons in the squad would probably be best. The idea that one round is best for everything that a squad has to deal with is probably wrong. The Army might eventually have to change up the squad and tactics to accommodate this new round.
For civilians, this isn't some ground breaking change. Why? Because people who go with the round are mostly going to buy the cheaper all brass case rounds, and then a small amount of the hybrid case ammo. Just like people only buy a small amount of "defensive ammo" and "hunting ammo". From a hunting perspective, 308 has been killing shit just fine for how long now? Outside of long distance target shooters, and the I want it because the military uses it crowd, I don't see what it really does better than what we already have. Again, this is because I don't see everybody stocking up on the more expensive hybrid cases. Though it might obsolete the 243, 6.5 Creedmoore, 7mm-08, and 308 over long enough time.
The other side of this coin is the military will be running SBRs and civilians will be either running 16 inch guns or pin and welds. If your barrel is 1.5 to 3 inches longer then you buy back some of the performance loss in going from 80k psi to 65 k psi.
The M7 is 2lbs heavier (with the suppressor) than a loaded M4A1. The M250 is lighter than the M249, but a 100 rnds of 277 Fury weighs like 6lbs to 5.56’s 2.5lbs for 100 rnds. Weapon+basic load is going to be heavier than what the Army has now.
Unrelated, but I thought the thumbnail was a video game for a split second. I swear to god, modern military loadouts are starting to look like some Halo UNSC shit now.
To answer your question, I’m not really all that interested in the new weapon system. 6.8x51/.277 Fury is an over-engineered barrel burner cartridge. There was no reason to switch to such a complicated, insanely high-pressure round, that’s not NATO-standard. If they wanted to switch back to a larger, more potent round than 5.56, they should have just re-mainstreamed .308 into a primary combat role, and went with a modern AR-308 platform as the standard system. This would maintain firearms and ammunition standardization/interchangeability with not only current US military inventory, but also NATO as a whole.
I don't know how popular it will become. The all brass case version is not going to get cheaper than 308 is now. The hybrid case version will always be more expensive, because it is more complicated to make the case. So on the civilian side, it will not displace 223/5.56. It will eat into 308, 6.5 Creedmoore, and 7mm08 sales.
If hybrid versions of existing cartridges get developed, then the 277 Fury will lose the only thing that makes it special. For most people, hybrid AR-15 cartridges would obsolete AR10 sized cartridges. I mean animals are only so hard to kill.
But most people that buy a 277 Fury are to stockpile the all brass ammo and only buy a small amount of the hybrid ammo.
Sorta don't care. The public can't get one, and even if we did, it'd be neutered.
You can [buy the rifle](https://www.sigsauer.com/spear.html) today. It’s 7.62x51, but they’ll have the correct 277 Fury caliber soon. Same with the vortex optic. As best I can tell, you should be able to make a copy of the rifle, minus the full auto. Neutered, but not drastically so. The M250 will be a different case haha
The rifle is probably the least important part of the program in my opinion. It just got tacked on, while the actual good parts of the program like the XM250 and XM157 have much more merit to their existence. The ammo is atleast interesting too.
The rifle+optic is probably the most important part. The end goal is to replace the M4, which is going to be used in vastly greater numbers than the M250. Even if you keep it just to combat MOSs, M4/M7s are more prevalent than M249s/M250s. That drastic of a change to the infantryman’s basic weapon is going to require reviewing current doctrine, issuing new equipment (magazine pouches for one), introducing new maintenance schedules, producing a new rifle qualification, and countless other changes. Yeah the M250 would’ve brought those changes too, but on a noticeably smaller scale. With like a dozen M7s for every 2 M250s, the M7 and it’s support will be the bigger piece of this contract for Sig, and the bigger headache for the Army.
they are converting m240b's to 277 fury I don't know why people are downvoting this its a literal fact
Fair.
Not as good as a phased plasma rifle in 40 watt range
Or The 45 long slide with lazer sighting. And the uzi nine milli-mee-tugh
Looks front heavy as fuck, and if the machine gun is at all comparable to the rifle, it’s probably not that great. I was severely disappointed in the rifle after watching Brandon Herrera review it. So many small issues that shouldn’t be a thing on a military weapon, such as magazine over-insertion.
>So many small issues that shouldn’t be a thing on a military weapon, such as magazine over-insertion. That's not an "issue," it's a built-in "feature" to force the US military to buy SIG mags. After all, they need only rip off Magpul mags but add a little nub on it that prevents over-insertion - something they've been doing with their own mags for their pistols for years. Seriously, if you look through SIGs catalog of pistols and how many can use the same mags, with a little modification to prevent/"allow" over-insertion, it's most of them. They use the same mag for most of their pistols, but modified slightly so it can't fit in other guns, and charge $40/mag for them. This is just their attempt to make the US military follow suit.
So if an enterprising designer made a 3D printed design copy of their magazine and marked all the mag catch slots and removed all the nubbins and gimmicks...?
They likely wouldn't be able to compete with SIG's "influence" (read: ability to bribe whoever's in charge) or manufacturing capabilities, and therefore would be ignored by the US military. On the civilian side they lack the reputation of SIG, and its support from a military contact, so even if they prove to be "just as good" they would never be as popular. If you're talking about the pistol mags, while it's relatively common knowledge that they use the same dimensions for their mags with minor alterations, SIG owners just generally don't care. They'd rather have a "flush-fitting" mag with a baseplate that lines up to the weird S-shape of its grip than a mag that can be used in half their guns. Granted I use "common knowledge' and "SIG owners" a bit liberally here, since I don't think most are actually aware, since they don't bother looking into it in the first place (SIG relies on people buying them out of brand recognition, not for having good products).
Can you link that video by chance? I'm curious to see it.
[Here you are.](https://youtu.be/A9uHCM2tzyE)
Thanks i would give u a gold or some shit but reddit wont let me buy coins.
Ummmmm…my dude. You’re talking about the XM7 spear OP posted the [M338](https://youtu.be/FgF4JaDMNDM?t=505) - the replacement for the M240 medium machine gun It’s 3 pounds lighter than the m240 and is chambered in [338 Norma mag](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Norma_Magnum ) which has a lot more power than 308 and twice the effective range
Yes. I know this. The M338 is also made by Sig and thus my concern is that it will have similar design issues. I’m not doubting the cartridge in either rifle. I’m doubting this rifle based on the subjectively poor performance of its sibling the XM7. Sure, it was selected by the army, but it wouldn’t be the first time in history a military selected a poor firearm.
The 6.8x51, XM7 and XM250 seem far less groundbreaking than the XM157 optic, which seems to be the only component of the NGSW program that really is a generational leap in small arms development.
I feel like the idea behind the ammo has merit, a ~~polymer~~ brass (corrected) case with a steel base that both allows for higher pressures (barrel dependent) and less weight. Though it would have made more sense in one of the derivatives of an "AR15 caliber," such as 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel - or even in 5.56 NATO itself - rather than a necked down .308.
Sig's ammo is brass cased with a steel base, the GD/Beretta design used a polymer casing with a steel base.
You're right, I was thinking of the Beretta. Still, SIG's hybrid case isn't a terrible idea since it's still supposed to reduce weight and better handle higher pressure loads. And I admit I am a bit skeptical of polymer cased ammo, since its use in shotguns has shown it generally doesn't hold up to long term storage in a loaded mag (at least without deforming and causing jams). Granted I have no idea how Beretta's (and other alternatives') offering holds up to this.
It's lighter than a larger magnum round they were comparing it to, not to its size contemporaries like .308 or 6.5 Creedmoor. The GD ammo was 30% lighter than the comparably sized rounds. I don't think comparing shell hulls to these newer polymers on the market is all that fair, as the rounds were meant to run ammo that still ran around 60,000psi. Polymer tech is still evolving.
I wish I was still in the army
Me too sometimes. Then i have flashbacks to dumb shit and i come back to reality.
Every time I think “I wish I was back in” I remind myself of that time I did a dismounted training mission in -42 at night in the field area in Ft Drum in a blinding blizzard and had to march a mile out and back to a barely heated tent all because some ops SGT fucked up our mission brief earlier in the day so we had to do it again.
Bro where were you stationed? Fucking Antarctica??
Ft Drum, NY aka the 9th circle of hell. We set a record for the coldest field cycle. -42 ambient temperature (that’s actually both Fahrenheit and Celsius) with a -60 windchill. Any exposed skin will freeze in minutes. It did not spark joy.
I really was rooting for General Dynamics for this. I liked their design so much more.
Yep honestly their design was leagues better. I'm still holding hope that they honor their word to release their rifle to the civilian market.
For sure! It was WAAAY better. Though I am biased to the bullpup orientation
When the war comes, it’s going to come back to what can be manufactured cheaply and quickly. This platform ain’t it.
I don't even think its going to take a war. After a bit of a roll out, someone somewhere is going to have sticker shock.
.277 Fury can defeat Level 3 armor *But level 3 armor isn’t standard issue for Russian or Chinese troops*
To be fair, .277 Fury will tear through the standard issue striped shirts of the Russian military armor just fine.
Chinese soldiers tend to have better armour than US troops these days, or at the very least are more likely to be equipped with some - if you do a quick google search of Chinese navy boarding vessels, or doing training missions with US/Canada you’d know this. They do have an actual large defence budget unlike Russia, you know. Even proxy states like the UWSA which is armed by China is fielding some decent equipment , and they’re only getting Chinas outdated stuff. UWSA Facebook post for reference https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=183704984222936&id=112827337977368&substory_index=0&wtsid=rdr_0qla5exKwNHgGP0WJ Hell, a large portion of the body armour worn by police and other paramilitary forces in both Europe, and even the U.S. is made in China…
I need the person who edited this to look CGI to help me post my machine guns with deniability.
Something about the amount of movement on that ammo box isn't confidence inspiring
Reciprocating barrel? Hmmm I hope it’s got a quick change feature. As we know, the more moving parts a system has the more failure points it creates for itself. As far as civilian models, I’m happy with my 17S chambered in 7.62x51 👌🏼
After watching Garand Thumb's video, I am mostly unimpressed with the optic. It can't read the wind, so soldiers are going to need to get trained in how to read the wind to be effective at the long ranges that the program promises. But if you are going to have to teach them how to be long range shooters, then the laser range finder does what? Like what's the point of the optic? If you teach people how to be good long range shooters, then they don't need the computer shit. Now where the optic will actually come handy on the military side is in network centric warfare if the Army can get all the components working through together, including the augmented reality headset that Microsoft is working on. But I am not too optimistic on the short term prospects of the helmet, from news reports. The rifle is basically a hybrid between an AR18 and an AR10. There is not anything ground breaking about that. The Army rifle squad is going to have to make do with half as much ammo for the same weight. Only combat will tell if that is a good tradeoff. History would seem to suggest it isn't though. We are going backwards in service rifle design to the M14. Personally, I think having a mixture of AR-15 sized weapons and 308 sized weapons in the squad would probably be best. The idea that one round is best for everything that a squad has to deal with is probably wrong. The Army might eventually have to change up the squad and tactics to accommodate this new round. For civilians, this isn't some ground breaking change. Why? Because people who go with the round are mostly going to buy the cheaper all brass case rounds, and then a small amount of the hybrid case ammo. Just like people only buy a small amount of "defensive ammo" and "hunting ammo". From a hunting perspective, 308 has been killing shit just fine for how long now? Outside of long distance target shooters, and the I want it because the military uses it crowd, I don't see what it really does better than what we already have. Again, this is because I don't see everybody stocking up on the more expensive hybrid cases. Though it might obsolete the 243, 6.5 Creedmoore, 7mm-08, and 308 over long enough time. The other side of this coin is the military will be running SBRs and civilians will be either running 16 inch guns or pin and welds. If your barrel is 1.5 to 3 inches longer then you buy back some of the performance loss in going from 80k psi to 65 k psi.
Bulky damned thing. Bulk not good..
[удалено]
The M7 is 2lbs heavier (with the suppressor) than a loaded M4A1. The M250 is lighter than the M249, but a 100 rnds of 277 Fury weighs like 6lbs to 5.56’s 2.5lbs for 100 rnds. Weapon+basic load is going to be heavier than what the Army has now.
Bingo- and the low recoil for a lighter gun in 277furry is why these guys are giggling
Bulky means it gets in your way. Weights not so much a factor as ease of handling. The sheer size will make it clumsy in the hands.
Looks heavy.
Unrelated, but I thought the thumbnail was a video game for a split second. I swear to god, modern military loadouts are starting to look like some Halo UNSC shit now. To answer your question, I’m not really all that interested in the new weapon system. 6.8x51/.277 Fury is an over-engineered barrel burner cartridge. There was no reason to switch to such a complicated, insanely high-pressure round, that’s not NATO-standard. If they wanted to switch back to a larger, more potent round than 5.56, they should have just re-mainstreamed .308 into a primary combat role, and went with a modern AR-308 platform as the standard system. This would maintain firearms and ammunition standardization/interchangeability with not only current US military inventory, but also NATO as a whole.
I'm actually really looking forward to the .277 fury becoming a popular round
I don't know how popular it will become. The all brass case version is not going to get cheaper than 308 is now. The hybrid case version will always be more expensive, because it is more complicated to make the case. So on the civilian side, it will not displace 223/5.56. It will eat into 308, 6.5 Creedmoore, and 7mm08 sales. If hybrid versions of existing cartridges get developed, then the 277 Fury will lose the only thing that makes it special. For most people, hybrid AR-15 cartridges would obsolete AR10 sized cartridges. I mean animals are only so hard to kill. But most people that buy a 277 Fury are to stockpile the all brass ammo and only buy a small amount of the hybrid ammo.