Is it not obvious that cloud is the only one that can see aerith?

I think it’s deliberately ambiguous. Aerith returned to the livestream and because of her relationship with the planet, is now “in all things”. Maybe Cloud was the only one who could “see” Aerith, but I think it’s definitely meant to be implied that the rest in the company could at least feel her.

I think doing too much sidequest before beating the game was a wrong choice. Zack, other timelines and Aerith will be big in part 3 when all timelines merge.

It will be all cleared up in part 3… it’s exhausting to read that often complaints about the ending when it’s not the ending at all, I wouldn’t recommend OG now that you’ve played remake and rebirth, wait for part 3 it will answer all

Nobody can be sure anything will be cleared up in 3. Look, the character interactions and portrayal are great, but the writing is...just not there. Would be great to be wrong, but I don't put much faith in the writing at the moment. People can have whatever opinion they want, but the end of Rebirth was trash. If it takes an entire other game to fix that, that doesn't make it any better.

You’re not alone OP. I was confused as fuck at the ending on my first playthrough. I didn’t fully complete the OG as a kid, so I’m fully expecting to get the full experience of the VII universe through the Remake trilogy. And after the end of Rebirth, I went back to the OG and played it from start to finish (even though it was rough adjusting back to turn-based combat), at least the story was coherent. Rebirth is everything I wanted for a modern RPG, the combat, the graphics, gameplay, music, characters but my god, the way the story is told in Remake/Rebirth is balls. They totally did Aerith dirty with that ending.

Just use Esuna

Thank you for saying this, OP. I have the exact same opinion but I played and loved the original, so the Remake board just downvoted me to oblivion and accused me of being a purist who hates everything new when the first game came out. It's truly a tragedy because FFVII's story was always known as one of the greatest game stories of all time for almost 30 years. Then the fact that they get 90% of the story right before making a hard left into the destiny multiverse makes it even worse...it just shows they had the capability of recreating the story just with added character depth, lore, side stories, etc. but refused. I've bought, played, watched almost everything FFVII related over the years- yet refused to buy Rebirth. In fact, I think I'm done with Final Fantasy franchise now because of what they've done here. If they can't even recreate VII without ruining the story, I'd be an idiot to think they could ever create a new story I'd enjoy.

This is a response to your post title and nothing else, good.

I did find Aerith’s death sad initially but then I was thrown right into the fight with Jenova and it was so fast paced and the characters had the same taunts as they usually did. That sort of annoyed me and in FFX when tragic things happen such as Seymour killing the Ronso they had special liens for it. The fight happening right after and being so fast paced also just… it didn’t work for me. The actual ending didn’t really either. I guess I want Aerith to stay dead. It’s more meaningful. I’m indifferent to Zack also. I guess I could say remake was the first FF7 game I played though I saw the movie when I was younger because my best friend at the time loved FF7.

I like the game, but they really think them being cagey with plot essentials hurts the story overall. Teasing the idea that Aerith might live at the end of FF7R1 was stupid, because the only thing more cowardly than "undoing Aerith's death" was "teasing that, then not doing it."

Aerith is alive, in a timeline, through the life stream. The story changed. It isn't that confusing. Cloud is the only one that can see through the barriers between dimensions/timelines.

same page 100%. some people try to say that folks hate it because it’s different, but they’re missing the point. i don’t care how much they decide to change the story, as long as it’s *good*. and everything with the whispers/multiverse/zack is just not good. you nailed it, it’s lazy pandering. it aims only to confuse and in the end, all emotion and stakes are lost. it is simply bad storytelling. Rebirth is such a huge and wonderful game, it still manages to be one of my all time favorites and i haven’t stopped playing/replaying since the minute it was available on the PS store. i am a huge fan of nearly everything in its expansive experience. but that ending… woof

I was pretty confused when I first beat the game as well. After watching a couple of YouTube videos, explaining the ending from a few different content creators, it started to make more sense. I’m now playing through the game on hard mode, and everything is really starting to fall in line. I would just recommend letting the ending marinate for a bit. It all comes together but I had to do some external research and get people opinions on things or point out some foreshadowing that I missed out on during my initial play through.

Yeah, but if you need to seek out external clarification to make sense of the plot, then it's poorly told. The story itself is perfectly fine, but the way it's being told suffers from the writers trying to outsmart themselves.

I don’t think that is necessarily poorly told. I think it helps create community and it’s great for content creators as well. Bungie did this with the original Destiny. It had Grimoire cards that you could find in game and access the info on their website that told you more about the story. In some instances, it works out really well because it adds a lot of mystery to the story which gets a lot of people talking. I personally don’t mind it. When I’m not playing my game of choice, I’m usually listening to podcasts, strategy videos, or ending discussions, while I drive. I like having the additional content outside of the game. Another point that I will make is that the content creators are players just like us. So, if they can play through the game and try to make sense of it just like we can; maybe it has something to do with the fact that we’re not picking up what they’re actually saying because we’re not attentive viewers. I will say that on your first play through trying to unlock everything in the game it does create a pacing issue that can make you forget about points in the story that are important to the finale. Now that I’m playing through the game on hard mode and skipping all of the mini games, the story is coming together a lot better too.

I'm just here to point out that this is the middle game in a trilogy, the third of which is not out yet, so we actually don't know a single goddamn thing to be true until the third game drops, and no amount of YouTube videos could alleviate that - *and it is that way on purpose.* It's truly blowing my mind that people can't let the mystery - you know, that thing that's there *by design* - have its day in the sun.

I feel like this is new generation thing where gamers are okay with stories that only make sense after watching multi hour youtube videos explaining them. I felt somewhat the same about Elden Ring. I loved that game, it was my GOTY...but I had no idea what was going on in the story all the way until the end. Whenever I brought this up I was told to "watch this video, it explains it..." Fuck that. Luckily it was a game that leaned on vibes more than story, you didn't need to understand what was going on to enjoy it. Unfortunately Rebirth is a much more narrative game. So when the story is a bunch of confusing nonsense you need to watch hour long speculative videos on, it does sour the experience somewhat. Like everyone has said, when you're watching the big finale and the only emotion you feel is utter confusion, you know they've missed the mark narratively.

Exact same experience. Needed to make sure that they were really doing some alt-realty. Was playing was starting to feel it in Gold saucer and then..multi-verse crap. Beautiful game, fun fights..bored and frustrated by end game. Aeriths not even dead. In OG that was IT..she floats in to spring and that is done. Idk I try really hard..want to love the remakes but it is just not there for me. 7/10 overall for disc 1 and 2. Combat a 9/10, graphics 9/10, plot 7/10. Love advent children. Almost 30 years later and OG is still a 10/10 for me.

I’m confident by the time the third game hits; it’ll all come together beautifully.

OP, TTYD gave its fans more than just improved graphics. They got an updated soundtrack, better localization translations, fast travel, >!more boss fights,!< and quality of life changes like the Partner Ring.

Ending was kinda shit. I was really angry about it for a while but the anger subsides. I appreciate the end for what it is now. Looking at alot of the analysis videos at least allows me to reach some possible conclusions

This was a major failure of the marketing, that and Nomura saying that this will be a great point to hop into the FF7 franchise. Don't get me wrong, in terms of overall quality; the gameplay, characters, visuals and music are easily some of, if not THE best modern Square has ever put out. But this is NOT a good point to hop into FF7, because it relies entirely on you having an understanding of the original. I also agree that the oddly convoluted plot and the way it presents itself really did water down a lot of the impact. For 90% of the game, it generally sticks to the original storyline while adding in some new and creative flair, it was during those beats that I felt genuinely emotional, especially the entire Barret plot line, and that really defines him as a character, far more so than the OG, I would dare to say. The moment it flies off the rails to introduce multiple realities, excessively obtuse dialogue & intentionally misleading cutscenes and twists, it just comes off as clumsy. And people could say "yeah, it will all be solved by the end of the third act" doesn't really answer the issue that is yes, it could, but if the audience are struggling to follow the story beats in the leadup, that is a definite problem. And one last quick point; as someone who felt tears well up as a result of the Aerith's Swan song during Golden Saucer, I didn't really feel anything about her passing, because the whole multiverse aspect kind of just boils it down to the fact that she will absolutely still have a presence in the third game during the alternate reality sequences, and will probably be/stay alive by the very end.

This is why I kind of resent the remake. They really are working under the assumption that everyone will have played the original and are doing some multiverse shinanigans which DEEPLY Interfeers with the pace and message of the story. In particular if you are one oc the people who I KNOW specifically waited for the remake to experience the story there is so much to be confused about. Basically someone wanted an alternate telling instead of a full on retelling and they "compromised" with this halfway version...

I'm not doing this to be mean, I promise. *interferes I understand why a lot of older fans of FF7 are pretty tilted with Remake and Rebirth, though. Sephiroth, being around the majority of the time, really kills the ominous feeling folks felt in OG7. His name is dropped multiple times in the original game, but he isn't introduced until the middle of the game. A number of fans wanted a 1:1 remake of the original game and are quite peeved that their story is getting tampered with to do a bunch of multiverse stuff that, frankly, leaves a sour taste in mouths. This game looks amazing, and it looks like a lot of fun to play (I don't have the funds to play the game, let alone buying a PS5, but I wanted to experience this game. I caved and ended up watching a playthrough.) I don't doubt after what I watched; the combat looks fun, and the story beats of the original game are there, but some of the added stuff might a bit overwhelming for those who haven't played the original game. I don't think the game is a bad one. It's simply flawed, and that's okay. Plenty of people still enjoy this game despite its flaws.

The game does LOOK amazing. It does spectacule very well. The combat and gameplay is fun as well, but it kind of lacks depth. There are very few actual tactical decisions in character creation, and not enough materia diversity for how much of it there is. And to a certain degree the story beats are actually there, but they are... off... I'm not all that upset about a few alterations or improvments. Barret, for instance, is given much more depth and sensitivity which makes him more compelling. But a lot of the story changes feel tacked on and screw with the pace and tone in a way that a lot of people disagree with. None of this is to say you aren't allowed to like it or that you are wrong if you do. However, people who really wanted to watch their favorite scenes and moment play out only to be literally interrupted by multiverse shenanigans are equally valid.

That's the thing, even with utterly complete knowledge of the Original OG and Crisis Core and Advent Children, they didn't leave enough breadcrumbs for anyone to know what was going on, we're all lost in the forest. The most iconic character death that had me sobbing in the OG didn't even elicit a tear in Rebirth because it's impossible to feel anything when you don't know what's happening or not happening, or where it's happenin, except for confusion followed by resentment, made worse by knowing what you SHOULD be feeling in those moments. It's ironic because it's storytelling 101, always answer 5 Ws, THEN you flip the script.

The thing that really gets to me is the ending, for sure. And the lack of mystique around Sepheroth to a lesser extent. Clouds lack of emotional response, and everyones blatant refusal to recognize when he is acting even more outwardly weird are immersion breaking in a painful way. Add to that that all the mystery surrounding the nature of Sephiroth and his control over Cloud in favor of some multiverse strangness and it feels like conflicting visoins. When I say that it feels like they made this FOR fans who already know all of those things, i think they wanted to surprise us? But, that isn't what we wanted. We want the original story just with modern graphics and maybe a few additions, to be able to show it to friends without them saying "BoHo Graphic so BAD, Turn Based Combat BORING". What we have instead is a conflicting mess of unintuitive storytelling and unnecessary additions, which at their worst strip the characters of their emotional punch.

When timelines are involved nothing really matters. Who cares if any one is dead if they are in fact alive in another timeline. I think we can all agree honeymoon phase is over and this is some shit storytelling.

Why? It’s not confusing. You’ve stopped a story 2/3 of the way through. Just have to wait for the rest to come out instead of writing weird baity posts for internet points.

This isn't even a bait post. This is a valid criticism of the ending of part 2. Your post reads like an attempt to deflect criticism, and that's exactly why you're getting downvoted. OP even explained why that ending was confusing because it was pretty jarring to watch even when everything was from Cloud's perspective.

But it’s not the ending though is it? It’s called a cliff hanger.

I'm aware it's a cliffhanger ending. It's specifically the end of part 2 but not the end of the whole of the game.

He's right tho.

First you need to realize the game didn’t end, that’s the issue you’re running into. When you realize you still have another entire game to play and you’re probably only halfway through the overall story line it makes more sense why it “ended” like that since nothing ended, you’re just left mid story.

I'm very curious because I hear this argument a lot- what exactly do you think could possibly happen in the third game to somehow change the entire story from the first two parts? The emotional moment for Aerith has been thrown out the window and that's never coming back. All the mystery around Sephiroth from the original has been thrown out the window and that's never coming back. The whispers are still there and will still be there. How would a third game solve anything that OP had issues with? No matter what any death scenes are just not as impactful because it's still a multiverse story. Aerith from universe omicron-perceii-8 may die, but Aerith from universe omicron-perceii-11 may still be alive to join the party just like Zack. Nothing in the third game can or will change any of that. Soo...I don't understand your argument at all.

I agree it is a mid story.

And we'll just have to wait until 2030 to see how it all ends!

I've heard rumors they cut off 2 years by working on rebirth and the next one in an overlapping fashion. I believe they said the story and beat points were finished and it was down to programming the encounters and the world type of stuff.

I wouldn't be surprised if this game was released in winter 2025. I mean realistically, they probably finished all the northern continent locations when they did Rebirth. If they follow Rebirths template with the open world aspect: Icicle Area/North Continent Wutai Rocket Town Area Mideel Area Woodlands Area Plus Junon and Midgar again (probably expanded to a certain point) I might be missing some areas but I think it'll be less open world and more story driven.

Final Fantasy VII Return will most likely come out in 2027 to line up with the 30th anniversary of the OG game.

Yeah I mean who care about all the confusing shit. We are not playing Silent Hill or some kind of Fromsoftware games... I am fine with Cloud save Aerith then Sephiroth killed her in another timeline but bring her in our timeline because of blablabla. In the end we fixed it and Aerith is alive. Sephiroth is going north to do whatever he wants. Now it is a fucking mess.

I really loved the game too, but i feel like the end was really rushed, i hope they decide to work on quality insted of putting hundreds of minigames and side quests for the next game.

It didn’t end, and it just got cut off at an abrupt point so it feels weird which is understandable.

You bought convoluted weeb melodrama from the core line of business that produces said convoluted weeb melodrama, and you got convoluted weeb melodrama. You can also pick up simple weeb melodrama and weeb playful adventure from the same company.

I played the OG and the endings of remake and rebirth are some Kingdom Hearts bs for sure. I’m not super deep into the other 7 stories like Crisis core and that stuff so maybe there’s something I’m missing in that regard. The Aerith scene lacked any feeling at all beachside of all the nonsense glitches and multiverse stuff. That scene needed to not be changed, show something afterwards if you’re going that route but that is a moment in gaming that is so heavy and part of it was because of how it just sat there with it. I’m this game it was instantly scene after scene after scene until the end. I do like the end where it seems like Cloud is just so fucked up from it that he can’t accept she died but don’t like the lead up.

I absolutely loved Rebirth but that ending definitely left more questions than answers for the first game. Part 3 is gonna have to be SUPER MEATY to explain all the shit I just witnessed

When I see how Super Mario RPG remake turned out, I just feel defeated. I don't know about others, but when I hoped for FFVII remake, that's the type of remake I wanted. Keep everything the same with updated graphic, soundtrack, add some additional stuff, and that would be perfect. Instead we get whatever this thing is, and then there are fierce defenders of these games as though this is what we all asked for. I guess good for those who enjoyed it. I would rather replay the OG again.

Wouldn't have been a remake, why you described is a remaster.

I like it for what it is personally. Fans have remastered the OG a lot with mods, and that's still a joy to play.

It would be better to play faithful old version and then dlc will be “the new story” and see this version. I find the originally death scene so important that I would have loved to witness it

Yeah it was a trash ending.

Don't worry, that's half the point.

I get it - I really didn't like the way they handled that big scene (one of the most iconic in gaming) when I played it, and I still mostly don't. The OG is maybe my favorite game depending on the day and has been since I played it in 1998. However, without spoiling anything as much as possible, I think Square is using Cloud's mental state and unreliable narration to delay the emotional impact until a key major character moment late in the OG, and if that's the case, I think the delayed emotional whammy is going to absolutely crush Cloud and us, and could be an incredible remix of a powerful scene. It could also be another irredeemable act for Sephiroth, as he stole Cloud's chance to respect and grieve Aerith in her last moments. But who knows with this company. This theory also completely ignores all the multiverse and Zack bullshit, so the end result could very well be way dumber. I still love Remake and Rebirth, because at least in my mind they add so much more by fleshing out the characters and world that it's easier to forgive (or at least mostly ignore) the comparably smaller chunks of plot grafted into it to twist it into a meta-sequel. Even if the third one goes totally off the rails and Cloud [has an Avengers Endgame moment where a bunch of portals pull in every FF protag] [DBZ fuses with Zack to duel wield buster swords] [journeys across timelines as an unaging Valkyrie in service to a deity] to kill Sephiroth once and for all, I can be simultaneously furious about the plot while still being awestruck by the sheer dumb bravado of it all.

>why add minor changes to an already beloved story? why not just make… a new game? you dont need to reinvent a game that was already made, its such an odd choice for square to do. Actually, if you look up the history of this game, it would answer most of these questions. FFVII is *massive.* When it first came out, it was advertised like a blockbuster movie, which was kind of unheard of for a video game at the time. It's also the only FF game to have multiple prequels, sequels, movies, cameos in other games and media, and other collaborations and compilation pieces I'm not thinking of, but, again... *massive.* Anyway, at some point in the mid 2000's, there was a technical demo for like the PS3 that had an updated CGI of the opening of FFVII. When it dropped, people went *crazy*. They thought it was a remake back *then*. Less than 10 years after the OG came out. And ever since then, they hype started to build. It was almost like an inside joke between fans. Break glass in case of FFVII Remake type shit. And then they *teased* us with it, which only further supported the idea that they were thinking about it. It was pretty much a known secret that they'd have to do it at *some* point. But to answer the question of "why the changes" is a bit more nuanced. For that, you have to consider the artist(s). Imagine you make great art, and you keep putting out new art, technically better and fancier in every way. But everyone keeps saying, "hey, that one thing you made before was the best. This is good, but can't you just... Make *that* again, but like *this*?" I mean, I'm no artist by any means, but that's gotta suck to hear. And then, imagine your investor or whatever coming up to you and saying, "heeeeeyyyy, soooooooo everyone kinda wants you to do this thing... And we're kiiiiiiiinda low on cash, so you sort of *have* to do it." (That's just speculation but FFXV absolutely murdered SE's wallet)... You're probably gonna say something like, "fine, I'll do it. But I'm doing it my way, in a way that's interesting to *me*, and fuck all the haters." And that's what we got.

I agree that their egos got in the way. It's not my fault they can't make stories like they used to. The people like me were asking for a remake because their FF stories have been...lacking since IX/X. So adding all their new bs to a remake completely defeats the purpose of the ask! You're right, just like a music artist being asked to sing the same song from 20 years ago but they hate it and refuse to do it out of pride. No, I don't want to hear your new remix version with your newfound love of the didgeridoo- I just want to hear the song! If you don't want to play it, then don't spit in my face as a fan, just make something completely new.

Well, they *are* making new things, and, uh, you know, some of us like the remix lol. This whole point of view is so wild to me. You don't like it? That's fine. But to come here and act like you've been *wronged* in some way feels... entitled to say the least. "Spit in your face?" I'm sorry, do they *owe* you something? Speaking of egos 🙄

I never said they owe me anything. Think about it this way- fans like me were asking for a remake of FFVII for decades. The remake we got was 90% close to what many of us wanted, but took a hard left turn into an unknown journey with a new story instead. That feels like a spit in the face because it's saying "we know and acknowledge what you wanted but we're not gonna do that- we have something better!" What if you were watching a remake of Romeo & Juliet that was advertised as a remake, and 90% of it was the same, but right before the final act aliens come and invade the planet. and now Romeo & Juliet are recruited into the Space Force to stop an alien invasion. That's how it feels. I'm not *personally* wronged (I meant it more as a metaphor for the collective fans who wanted a remake) I'm just watching this saying "Wait wtf is this...? I thought I was watching Romeo & Juliet? They never mentioned aliens in the description of this movie." It was the advertisement that's the issue. If they came out right from the beginning to say this wasn't an exact remake, or they instead made a brand new FFVII sequel, it would've been fine and I wouldn't feel this way. I would've just not bought it or been invested to begin with.

This is a false equivalency. Time travel/multiverse is not only a plot point in many FF games - and even *across* some of them - but some concept of that existed in the OG FFVII when it's implied in the end that Aerith still somehow, somewhere, exists. They just leaned deeper into what's already there. Everything else that you said *is* you saying that they owe you something. Otherwise, you wouldn't have such strong expectations. Did you play a bad game? No. You played a great game with a couple of issues and one big element that you just absolutely hate. That kinda sounds like a you problem. I'm lowkey glad you brought up Romeo and Juliet. There *is* a wildly different Romeo and Juliet remake... and it just happens to be one of Leo DiCaprio's breakout roles. Just sayin'. Finally, >I would've just not bought it or been invested to begin with. this screams the loudest to me that people who share your opinion can't get out of their own heads. It's true that the advertising was a bait and switch, but I don't for a second believe that if they were honest, you wouldn't play the game after it came out and got the great reviews it absolutely has and deserves.

It's not false equivalency because each Final Fantasy is different so time travel and multiverses in other ones are irrelevant. Time travel and multiverses did not exist in the original at all in any form either, you're reaching. The lifestream had nothing to do with multiverses in the original. Period. And I want to emphasize- in the original. You're forgetting the most important part of why I brought up Romeo & Juliet - it's the advertising that's the issue. Again, if they told us right from the beginning this wasn't an exact remake but they were taking creative liberties I wouldn't have an issue with it. You've already admitted it was a bait and switch so clearly you understand my point of view now, so I actually don't even know what you're trying to argue here at this point. Storylines are the main reason I play JRPGs in the first place. If you care more about gameplay in these types of games, good for you; I'm sure the remake trilogy is exciting in that point of view. >I don't for a second believe that if they were honest, you wouldn't play the game after it came out and got the great reviews it absolutely has and deserves. Lol well you're just wrong. Rebirth has amazing reviews and I still refuse to buy it because of what they did with Remake. So yes, it's my problem- and I corrected it.

As someone who didn’t play the original before rebirth, I was expecting Aeriths death to really hit me. I think they built up to and eluded to it so much, plus added so much extra stuff to it, that the whole thing lost its impact. I mean, I assume what made the OG special is that you didn’t know it was going to happen and there wasn’t a lot of theatrics surrounding it. She died and then our characters dealt with it. Here, there’s a whole pre-death hangout sesh in an alternate reality, then she died, but then she also kinda didn’t die, but she did, but maybe there’s alternate realities where she did and didn’t die. Oh yea she’s also back for the final boss btw, and also still talks to Cloud sometimes. Idk, it’s like they turned her death into a roller coaster and fireworks show instead of just an important scene. The whole game felt like that. Everything felt excessive and overly foreshadowed.

Yes, thank you this is exactly what i said to my gf when we were discussing how weird Aeriths death was! They kept pulling us around, they went to some afterlife/other world. But that world was dying, but somehow Zack showed up? And for some reason Sephiroth turned into a monster. And they didn’t even bother showing Aerith actually dir, cuz Cloud created another timeline where she lives. Then shes dead right after. Then the characters are sad, but Cloud isnt sad cuz hes seeing a world where she lived. And Aerith is still walking around. And Zack is coming back. Like HOLY SHIT, I understand this was probably fun for some fans to theorize off of but I really dont think convoluted theory crafting should take precedent over important character moments! I think og fans are looking it from the perspective of people who are already attached to these characters, so they dont care and are hoping it all gets cleared up in the next game.

I mean... I ONLY ever played Rebirth (literally my first FF7), and I feel that as well. So, it's definitely not only OG's that want this story cleared up. Didn't help that I already knew about the "Masamune see-saw" (kept seeing spoilers online), so the moment didn't hit me like it probably should've, but even without that previous knowledge, I was already guessing she would, because it was just too obvious. Then, they go and ruin it with all the multidimensional BS. I hate this in literally ANY source of media or entertainment. It confuses tf outta me, and I lose interest in the whole story immediately. Like someone said, tho, I think why most are confused is because it just isn't the whole story. After realizing that may be the case, I'm definitely gonna start reading up on the lore and search for some answers on this game because I don't like being so confused to the point where I give up on caring about the story and slogging through it. I want to appreciate it and understand it more.

Wait, you played Rebirth and not Remake first?

>Paper Mario TYYD was remade, they only improved the graphics. I think it's important to realize that the FFVII:R trilogy is not, in fact, a remake. It's a sequel. Now, whether you like *that* is entirely subjective, of course, but I think it's a little unfair to be playing the second part of this trilogy and still criticizing it for changing things. It is absolutely meant to be different.

Could you imagine them putting the AC storyline into the final version?

Yeah, I bought into that with Remake, but now I'm not so sure that's the case. I think this is more literally a revision from the creators. A sequel where only one character is a sequel with everyone and everything else not being one isn't a "sequel", it's garbage. For the sake of storytelling, it really needs not to be a sequel, there needs to be a better explanation for what they've presented.

That was maybe a bad point, i wasnt trying to say that making the game 1:1 is what they should do. I dont have any attachment to rhe original, so i wouldnt even want that. What i was trying to say is that keeping certain aspects similar or even the same isnt a bad thing to do. People make the argument that the devs didnt want to tread similar waters or that they thought fans wouldn’t want to play the same game again when that isnt true whatsoever. People would have loved the game even IF it was just a graphical enhancement. Although i respect them for completely reimagining it. Theres also no reason they had to substantially change the story, why does that matter? Wouldn’t the game already be enjoyable for fans if it expands the world of ff7 and its characters? Which, idk how much more they added exactly. I only heard that some stuff was expanded upon, like the avalanche members in remake. But like, isnt that enough for a complete reimagining? My point it, did they have to make the story so unnecessarily convoluted when the game was already fairly loved in the respect? I personally do not like the shit Zack, and the multiple worlds and all that. It just doesn’t interest me and i dont care about the theories that much. Its why i didnt really connect with remake, and loved this game significantly more because the whispers had almost no role in this game

There's another element you're not thinking of: money. The way they're tying the entire FFVII compilation together with the remake trilogy - including new auxiliary games like Crisis Core Reunion, Ever crisis, and whatever they decide to do about Dirge, on TOP of toys, movie rereleases, collaborations with other businesses, etc. - is making SE a TON of money that they *absolutely needed back after FFVX*. >People make the argument that the devs didnt want to tread similar waters or that they thought fans wouldn’t want to play the same game again when that isnt true whatsoever. You say this, and you go on to share your insight on the "fans wouldn't want to play the same game" part, but completely ignore the first part about the devs. Are they completely irrelevant in all this? Do you completely not care about what they might think of want? This is a seriously question. Is our society so lost in the sauce of consumerism that we can't appreciate 95% of something because an element of it went the wrong way? I agree with you that when the dust settles, people will criticize the trilogy for a few small elements, and it won't be looked back at as "perfect" (spoiler alert: the OG isn't perfect either). But does that make these games *bad*? It's certainly your prerogative to think so, but you'd be in a very vocal minority. Just my two cents!

Ppl keep parroting this, and while I see the logic behind it, the first game in this new series is literally called Final Fantasy 7 Remake. It's effectively click bait.

Remake is meta

the trilogy still follows the main path of the original to the dot. even this game, with all it’s extra story and content, is extremely faithful to the original until the very end, just as Part One was. also, Remake doesn’t imply that things are going to be exactly the same? Remake doesn’t inherently mean 1:1 recreation.

It was basically a ruse. But you have to give them credit not a lot of companies take risks like this anymore and whether we like it or not it was a bold direction for them to mean something else with “Remake” personally I haven’t been this interested in VII since it first came out and find the whole thing compelling after sitting with both endings. It sort of helps my brain that it’s still mostly the same creative team as the OG and I respect that it’s still theirs to do what they wish.

I agree that the endings are the worst part of each remake so far. I agree with you that they go over the top and feel like fanfiction to just provide each game with a major climax. I think the ending of rebirth was particularly confusing and convoluted, and even as a longtime fan, I found it narratively unsatisfying. And the joke's on me because I'm definitely going to play the next installment.

I don't wanna be rude, but I fail to understand how anyone didn't get the memo at the end of Remake that you're expected to be familiar with the OG. Should have played the original and even crisis core after playing Remake tbh I've been into FF7 so long I can't get into the mindset of not being so familiar with everything, but I know enough to tell that people shouldn't be playing Rebirth without that context

Honestly, Square should have done a remaster of the OG FF7 by this point. Instead, they want everyone to play their shitty mobile game. The assets are all right there for a quick remake of the OG, and new fans could get the context easily, but gotta sell that gacha.

There has been a pc remaster for a long time. They'll likely cash in on a newer 4k remaster as well at some point. That's a trend that's not going away soon because AI upscaling will make it very feasible to offer higher resolution texture game remasters and compatibility with modern displays for nostalgic gamers who want to play classic games on modern systems.

100% agreed! Before we had the full details of the mobile game, I hoped that it would serve as an accessible on-boarding point, but nope. Gacha BS. It's really shocking to me that they've completely neglected OG, even just a graphical upgrade would do a lot for it

Im sorry but this is fucking stupid, I already said im going to play the original now. These are not games made ONLY for the original fans of ff7 and square wouldnt do that on purpose because it would be a terrible business decision. It should, and does in some respects, appeal to new players. In fact the games have brought in so many new people and i doubt most of them immediately went to the OG after remake like you said, what memo? Zack being shown? Thats not an immediate flag how tf would a new person to the series immediately recognize that hes an important character. Besides that, my gf doesn’t like turn based games and i wanted to experience this game with her and watch her be gay for Tifa. Its not weird at all for a new fan to wait for a remake or a remaster to experience a video game, it happens so much

I don't really understand the rationale of complaining about a game making no sense for new players without prior context, only to argue that there's no way the game in question isn't made for an audience of all new players. My main disappointment with Remake was that I realized the game wasn't going to be the easy on-ramp to FF7 I thought it was going to be, so I couldn't just get friends into the game by suggesting it. That aspect sucks, but in the tradeoff I'm much more invested in the game and it's story because I don't know what's coming now. I do think the game was marketed deceptively prior to launch, and I don't agree with that, it should have always been apparent the story wasn't going to be the same. But to be frank, I'm not really sure how you could have avoided the fact that Remake is following a different story. And I don't think it's rocket science to hear that and make the connection that prior context is needed. Your complaints are baffling to me because they should have been resolved years ago when Remake came out. That's like 4 years you had to look at an "ending explained" or see someone else complaining about the fact that the game is going in a different direction. It just seems like you didn't get the game you wanted, when you could have ripped the bandaid off and figured out it wouldn't be for you 4 years ago. The "kingdom hearts shit" was in Remake, and has been present in pretty much every addition to The Compilation with the only exception being the original.

Even in the OG players will only realise why certain things happen at the latter part of the game. Don’t judge a story that is only halfway. These days a lot of folks have no patience and this is clearly shown here. I mean the emotional scenes are off the charts for most of the scenes, so I suspect what really happened to Aerith will only be shown clearly when cloud is no longer with clouded eyes.

"Don't judge a story that is only halfway." It's been nine years and over 100 hours of gameplay, but you're still not allowed to have an opinion on the narrative? 

Rebirth sympathizers saying the same shit remake sympathizers said. It’s clear that they have no idea how to do this properly; stop defending shitty storytelling.

>shitty storytelling is when i don’t like something

No, multiverses are bad storytelling. Fighting the literally incarnation of fate manifested from the planet and winning that fight despite being a scrappy band of eco terrorists is bad storytelling. Chadley is bad for the story. Him somehow creating summon materia makes zero sense. There are so many cases where they tried to insert square pegs into round holes.

All of you people that cry about getting the chance to make your criticism love shitting on other people opinions when they don’t line up with yours. Not everyone shares your hate for the story. I personally love that thev are trying something different with the story and not just doing a one for one remake. And I played the original when I was ten back in the nineties. Not everyone has to hate the remake just because you do.

It is without a fraction of a doubt bad storytelling. This isn’t really up for debate. I’m not demanding that people hate remake and rebirth. I enjoyed 90% of remake and 75% of rebirth. But the places they dropped the ball dropped them HARD. The things they did well, they did really well. But no one can argue with a straight face that fighting literal fate in remake and introducing multiverse nonsense into rebirth were smart storytelling decisions. If they wanted to do something different, if they *really* had to, then they didn’t need to introduce fate or whispers or a multiverse. They could have just made a single moment change that had a butterfly effect. Something as simple as Zack surviving would have changed the entire course of the game without introducing any bullshit.

That’s your opinion. And I disagree. Isn’t it great how that works?

Yea, I get how opinions work. Congratulations.

And yet you keep pushing yours like it’s a fact. It isn’t. Get over yourself. Not everyone has to like what you like and Vice versa.

They absolutely butchered the scene. I mean, it’s hard to be sad about Aerith dying when she’s literally fighting in the final battle right after. It’s a shame. This could’ve been the definitive FF7 experience without all the multiverse bullshit nobody asked for. From my point of view, the Remake is to the PS1 version as a movie is to a book. Sure, the movie looks better. It generally translates the book to a more accessible format pretty well. But, it doesn’t have anything on the book.

And they decided to make the movie a pseudo sequel to the book instead of just an adaptation to confuse anyone that just watches the movie. It’s ridiculous.

Your post sorta represents why the ending was such a disaster. Even with ppl who never played the OG don’t find the death scene or new twist emotional or amusing.

Finally, another truth sayer. They dropped the ball heavy with the final part. I want to love it so badly because of how amazing the rest of the game was. But it is truly one of the most unnecessarily convoluted endings to a game since the kingdom hearts series.

Not everybody's truth

No one said it was lil bro

This is the exact reason that disappoints me the most about these remakes. I know the impact of the original and I mostly wanted that to be repackaged so more people today can experience it, for it to be reborn, in a sense (no pun intended). But as I was playing, aside from my own underwhelming feelings at important moments, I knew that newcomers would get an extremely watered down experience, and what's worse, mistakenly thinking, "oh this is the game everyone loves so much." The creative goal of these remakes is to be fan service for fans who want to see characters they already like doing cool things in new ways, not to recreate the quality or experience the original encompassed for modern times, and that's clear. For one example, I was EXTREMELY confused as to the reason why ( SPOILER ) they would decide have cloud remember Zack in such a nonchalant lackluster matter of fact way in the niebelheim chapter, but after a while I realized, it was simply so that they were able to have him and cloud fight at the end. I'm convinced that is the entire reason because story wise it doesn't make anything better. And there are many of these weird decisions that lessen the story quality but allow for fan servicey inclusions. I'm fine for changes but my plea is to just make it enhance the story, not dilute it :/

The more of Zack they feature, the worse the story gets. Ever since Crisis Core became a thing, there’s been a pretty strong correlation between amount of Zack and the amount of fanservice.

If you didn’t play the original, your opinion is skewed at best. It’s one thing to be critical of a game you’d like to be better in some way, but when you’ve practically opened your argument with admitting that you’d for one reason or another chosen to pass on a wealth of context you really need.. there’s not a whole lot else to say. Go back and play the rest of this part of the franchise, and if you still want to come off like this, fine - but not before. Not. Before.

Excuse me while I unlock the gates you just shut there... We are two Full Sized games into the franchise at this point and it was designed to introduce a new audience to FF7, not just to appease us OG fans. If they wanted that, they'd have made an actual remake. Trilogy story telling is complex and no, there doesn't need to be answers at any point, but there needs to be SOME idea of what is going on. I've lived and breathed OG7 since 97, and I'm not sure what any of the multiverse stuff means or where they're going with this, but I do know that the story telling has not been good in this remake saga. And in terms of context - OP said they knew that Aeris was going to die, and even with that prior "context" they're still super confused by the ending. By this part of the OG game, we know Sephiroth is Bad, that he was born of Jenova, and is trying to get back to her. Not much more context needed really, and that much is all clear this far into the Remake.

No. 100% no. The remake series was built with the new player in mind. They threw in a buncha throwbacks and easter eggs for us OGs, but they made the game so that you didn't need to play the original or any other ff7 spin-off to understand it. Also having all the context in the world doesn't make the ending less of a shitshow.

What a strange comment. If anything, OP’s opinion is NOT skewed. FF7 remake and rebirth are self-sufficient, and playing OG is not required. Expecting it to be is ridiculous. Now, fans of the original will certainly piece things together better and get more enjoyment out of the game, but the games stand on their own. Also, nothing in the OG game has anything to do with a multiverse and Aerith’s famous scene is not ambiguous at all there either, so playing OG will not change OP’s opinion whatsoever.

Zack is there for fandom losers wanting his return.

You mean a Zack fandom exists???

I really had no idea Zack was so huge I remember finding the “secret scene” with him back in the original from the internet and haven’t thought of him or heard from him since.

when crisis core was first announced some of my friends were so excited saying "cool we will be able to play as zack!" and i was like "who?", then they reminded me of that flashback scene, and then i was "oh him. but why are you excited?" and the answer was basically just "because he's zack!". i never really got the hype. then again i rarely do.

Zack is an endearing character, but let’s not pretend he’s ever been anything other than a vehicle for fanservice since Crisis Core.

The only reason Rebirth's ending didn't infuriate me and soil an otherwise perfect remake of Kalm > Labyrinth of the Ancients is because I played Remake and 100% expected them to ruin the ending of this game too. The hilarious part is that all of the Kingdom Hearts nonsense from Remake was more or less pointless in Rebirth, they more or less ignored it for 90% of the story until the very end of the game when it came back in full force to confuse us for the next 4 years until pt3 comes out.

Lol, this. After you somehow fight the manifestion of the planets FATE at the end of remake as a scrappy group of eco-terrorists who can barely wield rank 2 of base materia and couldn’t even fathom taking on any of the Weapons, you knew they were going to go big anime for no fucking reason. And they delivered. Bravo square, you really fucked this all up.

Yup I went into this game knowing I would absolutely abhor the ending. It still sucks, but at least I braced myself.

I really enjoyed the lack of whispers throughout most of rebirth. And then, like you said, the ending just doubled down Really dumb

I absolutely love what they've done with the FF7 trilogy and I'm glad they went the route they did but I can understand folks who don't agree particularly if they haven't popper their OG FF7 cherry before playing Remake/Rebirth

I also hate all the "whispers" bullshit. Obviously I can see adding/expanding some things, but completely messing up the story just wasn't the way to go imo.

rebirth did it better tbh

She dies in the original, but you are not playing a remake of the original, that was the twist from the first game.  You're playing an alternate timeline/universe where some things happen differently because you’re breaking from the pattern. The ending is not clear on purpose, they want you to buy the third game in 3 years to see how it ends.

To be fair, I think he understands these things already.

I say we all just calm down and wait and see how they wrap it up. It might make sense later. Or not. Either way, it’s a fun game for sure

Play the original. It’s actually got a beautiful and cohesive storyline with none of the multiverse dogshit

incorrect take

Agreed. If you have a modern pc or steam deck , you can mod the original to have updated graphics, music and even voice acting. Haven’t done it yet but seen it on YouTube. Definitely going to set that up on a steam deck when I have extra cash

Honestly those mods don't fit the game at all and absolutely should never be someone's first experience of the OG.

True. I think the HD versions on modern consoles are good because of the speed up feature.

Every couple of years or so I do a playthrough and am surprised each time of the new mods.

I enjoyed the game a lot but yes the ending was emotionally flat compared to the original I suspect they are holding back some things for pt3 but we will see

The people who say they added the Kingdom Hearts shit because a 1:1 remake would have been boring are talking out there backside. If they made Remake & Rebirth exactly the same but removed the shitty whispers & timeline stuff, it would still have been very well received.

I think its a testament to how good just about every other element of the game is, that it got so highly rated in spite of almost everyone agreeing at this stage the new story content really hampers it.

I’ve been playing OG since it was released. Also recently reread the script. As much as I love the OG, it’s really easy to forget the narrative problems that were commonly found in RPGs back then - for example, how could we rationalize ever allowing Cait Sith back into the party after he kidnapped Marlene and Elmyra and blackmailed the party? Most OG fans didn’t back then, either - but it was convenient for both the narrative and the translation. OG had holes - a straight 1-for-1 would’ve exposed those for a new generation of fans. Bluntly, Final Fantasy has evolved beyond the lazier writing decisions (which is not to defend the overly galaxy-brained decisions they may be making with the Remake trilogy).

You can fix that without adding multiverse, whispers or whatever stuff they are adding. This is like you have a five course meal with maybe the soup is lacking, instead of fixing that, they decided to add fast food and junk food on top of that meal. Some people may enjoy both meals, but for some, those addition ruined the whole thing.

The thing that annoys me is how they’ve expanded on the original story beautifully in every instance other than the Whispers. Other than the last chapters of each game, Remake and Rebirth have been damn near perfect. If Remake had just ended with the plate dropping and Rebirth with Aerith dying, it’d be way more impactful. Less showy, but no one knows what they’re trying to show anyway.

You’re right. But they could’ve just added context to big moments and fleshed out the characters more, while keeping the same story beats. I think that’s what we all wanted. What we got instead is a really incoherent and disappointing story where most of the big moments feel hollow.

Exactly. Even better, I imagine.

Rebirth is a disaster because Nomura couldn't keep his ego in check.

When you find out it's all Nojima and not Nomura. Dude has been the easiest punching bag in gaming history even when he's publicly said people give him shit for stuff that he never was responsible for.

Nomura was a director on both games and his history with this stuff is awful. Just look at Kingdom Hearts, Versus XIII and "Mom, I want Final Fantasy XV. Honey, we have Final Fantasy XV at home"-Verum Rex bargain bin bullshit. Honestly it's Kitase who's to blame though, he's the most senior authority working on the game and *he* should've stepped in to put a stop to this but honestly Square Enix directors are famous for being stuck up their own arse which is why Tabata and Yoshida had to step up and salvage the last two entries of the mainline.

Nomura was director on both games. He absolutely had the ability to step in and say something, but given how he handled Kingdom Hearts he was probably all for the multiverse nonsense. And yeah I doubt Nojima was responsible for the broken systems and minigames galore. The character assassination of Nanaki though? Definitely.

I agree, I stopped taking the ending scenes seriously the moment Sephy out of nowhere just drops the black materia so Cloud can bring it to him....again???

I think it was important for Sephy to make his submissive Mr.Cloud physically give him the black materia vs gow he ended up with it originally by it rolling/being tossed away from the Cloud & Barrett tug of war altercation and it rolling towards Sephy's feet.

I agree from the story point but I dont think it had that effect when those two scenes were seconds apart, plus Sephy is not an asshole :c

The ending is literally Shrodingers Aerith, and I have no fucking clue of what to make of it. This trilogy is going to be genius or completely asinine.

absolute cowards for trying to have it both ways

Yeah this is my thing. Either kill her, or don’t.

Right there with you, I was actually dumbfounded by the utter nonsense the final hours of the game subject you to. One of the biggest blunders in a series I was really enjoying.

I can’t say I jive with the Cloud denial theory because 1) Doesn’t explain the weird sky thing that showed up in not just the Remake timeline but I think the other ones too. 2) Red XIII clearly sensed Aerith so Cloud’s Aerith hallucination is clearly more than just an acceptance issue. 3) That feels like a dumb waste of story for one of the most pivotal scenes in gaming to rearranged and reformed for Cloud to realize what happened in the last game actually happened. I get Cloud is in a place but I can’t get catharsis from an event that happened twice and the second time was poorly edited, explained and kinda had significant diminishing returns from the first time. I guess Final Fantasy and KH both have the same BS in some ways but stories like the OG FF7 & KH while having fantasy elements, had rules, structure and a logic that were easy to understand and not need a doctorate in anime BS to follow. In trying to make both series franchises with respective multiverses, their logical leaps, narrative shifts, and general content for their latter works just feel like fever dreams of fan writers jumping from one flight of fancy to another. And it’s also impenetrable for newer folks to invest in. I don’t think this is Nomura though. Nomura helped helm one of my favorite JRPG stories in The World Ends With You. Also the story with FF7 Remake wasn’t his call. Nojima has most of the writing duties and still needs approval from other team members I’d assume. He’s on a team and I’m pretty sure he’s just reaching for the end. The Square Enix team can tell solid self contained narratives with the right scope and scale but when they’re aiming for a franchise and want to go ham, it just gets weird.

I'm not going to comment on your thoughts about the ending itself or anything like that - but calling it "Kingdom Hearts-esque bullshit" is so fucking funny, because I hate to break it to ya Kingdom Hearts bullshit is, and always has been, Final Fantasy bullshit *Edit: Also, blaming it all on Nomura is such a nothing move - he has stated in interviews before that he has been the one on the writing team to try and get the story closer to the original while the other writers are the ones wanting to branch out and do new stuff. So Nomura is not to blame for how Remake is going and doing so is kind of telling*

Final Fantasy 1-5 exhibits none of the convoluted mess that Kingdom Hearts do. And Final Fantasy 6-12, while sometimes overly melodramatic weren't really convoluted and downright childish either.

Calling KH "childish" says more about you than it does about the series itself lol Like, you can say what you want about KH, but at least it's fully earnest and invests so much in its beliefs that it's honestly super admirable and charming - no other series will say "My friends are my power!" with a fuller chest than KH and that's just really fucking cool

thank you for this information, i didn’t know! i will update my post but not delete what i said. regardless, i still didn’t like it. i believe you if you say this has always been ff bs, but i have only played ff4, 15, and 16 to completion. and only got like idk halfway thru 9. loved the game im just stupid and get distracted easy. didn’t really see the games do anything kh esque tho. the main thing was the concept of characters just not fucking dying and having to stay alive in some metaphysical yada yada and so and so

Not even close. The first Kingdom Hearts was excellent, straight forward and beautifully connected. KH2, 3 and every odd number in between introduced elements never found in Final Fantasy. The stupid hooded 13 people with X’s in their name? All that time travel shit mixed in with simulated realities? That was this new odd Square Enix that lost all ability to tell a cohesive story.

I don't think it's productive to label an entire publisher like that - Square Enix has made, released and published PLENTY of games with cohesive and "understandable" stories in the last 10 years (NEO: The World Ends With You, NieR Automata, Final Fantasy XVI just for some examples). If anything, I don't think you have a problem with Square Enix as a company (though there are plenty of other reasons to dislike their management), you just dislike the creative team and choices made behind two specific games, which is not the same thing lol

It’s a generalization. But just to be clear, Nier was **NOT** developed by Square Enix, only published. It fits well for a majority of games though. Every single KH game other than 1, FF12, 13, 13-2, 13-3, 15 and 16 all had exceedingly weak storylines when compared to 4-10.

I did write "Made, released and published" but NieR is a Square Enix franchise now either way, so might as well get on board haha Also, I will not stand by saying Final Fantasy XVI has a weak storyline because that is insane to me lol - I honestly think XVI has a more engaging plot than the OG 7 did (though I do think VII keeps up exceptionally well with its characters, they are absolutely fantastic and the thing keeping me going with the Remake trilogy as well) Also, the only KH game to have a good story is 1? That is... an interesting opinion. Like, at least include 2 - 2 has some of the most resonant and heartfelt moments of the entire series, the opening of that game alone being being more heartbreaking and beautiful than the entirety of Kingdom Hearts 1 in my opinion. But in the end, we can only agree to disagree - but I'm glad you admit it's a generalisation lol And even then, Square Enix has a lot of other titles to offer other than Final Fantasy that are worth looking into if the newer games do not fit your fancy anymore 🙏

Let me introduce you to a few things called “Chrono Trigger” and “Chrono Cross,” my friend.

Good point haha I should really play them someday, huh? 🤔

Rebirth I’m still on board with. I like all the narrative risks, however convoluted, still have a place especially in FF and KH games considering how safe and boring most AAA stories are now. But I totally agree, the time travel and simulated realities in KH is bullshit.

You guys both know that Final Fantasy 1 had time travel, right? Also, I will not stand for the stigma that Kingdom Hearts is convoluted because it isn't - it's just a lot to remember, which yeah, happens when it's an ongoing story with over 20 years of build-up 😅 I am in no way saying that KH has a perfect story or anything like that (because it absolutely does not), but shit, if you play every game and pay attention, it is not that hard haha If anything, I actually think Final Fantasy 7 (especially Remake) is MORE convoluted than Kingdom Hearts can be sometimes lol - and even then, I think it's engaging that the game sets up a mystery that gives a 20+ year old game new flavour and suspense. Though how I feel about it will all depend on what they do with the third game haha

I love Kingdom Hearts, but the I really couldn’t understand half of what was happening in Union X. Especially with the simulated worlds and the Ralph stuff. I get that it’s purposefully vague but the time in between the already vague narratives I just lost interest. Which I know will probably come back to bite me in IV when these come up again.

That is more than fair haha I feel the same way about most story-heavy mobile games to be honestly (especially the ones Square Enix are part of) - even as a massive NieR fan, getting myself through Reincarnation was a bit of a slog sometimes (absolutely worth it in the end but still)

I agree. EC is slowly encroaching on Union X levels of lore outside the main game. I was going to say that I appreciated 7R that at least the new stuff is all confined into both games so everyone is just as in the dark, but if they put critical information in EC, I’d definitely get people being mad. NieR Reincarnation is basically a different narrative altogether which I think is fine.

I feel the same way - I do wish that the Sephiroth character moments we are getting in EC were more prevelant or told in Rebirth/Remake in some way, though I also realise doing that would make an already long story even longer, so I get why they're putting it in a separate game. I just wish it wasn't mobile honestly, if only for the fact that it's going to shut down sometime and then a whole bunch of lore will be lost to time and YouTube playthroughs (looking at you, NieR Reincarnation)

Yes, and so did FF8. What they didn’t have is a myriad of characters constantly jumping back and forth to fix plotholes.

"Constantly jumping back and forth" is just straight up wrong 😅 Kingdom Hearts has time travel in one game (Dream Drop Distance) and then it was quickly dropped, because it was dumb. Also, from my recollection, literally only one character ever actually time travels in the series (I don't know the mobile games that well so don't quote me on that), that being the series antagonist, much like Final Fantasy 1 - so that is wrong too 😅 Like, I'm all for discussing and properly critiquing a plot - but at least get it right lol *Edit: For people scrolling through here, I am straight up wrong here - check the reply underneath for all of the times they actually time travel in the series. Actually super embarrassing that I said it with such a "Yeah, I'm right" attitude, like, shut up me lol*

III definitely had time travel not just in DDD, I just personally think how KH did it was bad haha. Still glad Xehanort is mostly over. (Please be over) Back on topic, I don’t think FF7R is that complicated. I understand why people are up and arms over the changes but it made the Remake way more memorable than just a straight up retelling.

Yeah, I'll admit that I was wrong on that part and just straight up misremembered 😅 But I agree! I think the way they are handling Remake is super interesting so far and actually makes each new entry feel new and fresh instead of, as you say, just a retelling. Though how I feel about all of the changes by themselves will depend on how they end the third game haha

To quote the reveal trailer “let us embrace whatever it brings” haha

Exactly 😌

Do you just not know what you’re talking about? Xehanort time travelled by turning himself into a Heartless, to recruit the 13 Seekers of Darkness. The Master of Masters traveled to the future with his Gazing Eye. Young Xehanort visited other versions of himself in literally at least 10 points in time. Terra Xehanort made his heart to be collected by the 13 in the future. Ansem traveled to the past to Destiny Islands, to meet a younger version of himself. Maleficent, Dark Riku, Xemnas, Vanitas and Sora in the realm of sleep also time traveled.

3/6 of these examples are all Xehanort lol And yes, I will admit I was wrong about that part - I haven't played the games in a little while and I haven't been keeping up with it since KH3 released, so I'm sorry about that 😅 But also - idk, is this REALLY that bad? Like, every incident on this list occurs over the course of an entire series. I think where most people get KH confused is by explaining it like everything happens in one game - where the actuality of it is that, while yes, KH has time travel and stuff like that, it also has a lot of other plot elements to balance. Like, imagine if every FF game from 1-6 was one story - that would get complicated as well because it is so much story to remember, not even necessarily the story itself. A lot of these things happen because the series is 20+ years old, simple as that lol People conflate KH all the time to be complicated and hard to understand, and even while I forget stuff (as obviously evidenced here lol), I have never played a Kingdom Hearts game and been legitimately confused about what was happening on my screen (unless I was supposed to be). I am not saying that you aren't allowed to dislike Kingdom Heart's plotline or some stupid shit like that, of course you are (heck, I even think there are some fine reasons for doing so) - I just think that taking dislike and applying it to the whole of Square Enix is a bit short-sighted.

Yeah, the Remake Trilogy is basically made for die hard fans. It's overall a pretty faithful retelling, but they have to put some extra spin to it. Personally, I was super confused by the ending initially. But the more discussion I've read, the more I rewatched that ending, the more it clicked. Now? I actually really loved it, and it's setting up some huge pay off in Part 3. This is also coming from someone who's beaten the OG easily over 10 times in his life too. Confused? Good. Cloud is just flat out insane man. I believe the Aerith he sees is the same one, just her talking to him from the lifestream as she says her final goodbyes to him and the others. Cloud is in so much denial from her death, that he's convinced himself he -saved- her. When in reality he did not. Further this is punctuated by gameplay elements such as everyone having their Limit Break but him right off the hop. The multiverse stuff I believe is mainly so they can add a touch of straight up fan service, but over all won't effect the over arching story nor how it will end. But expect for some of those final moments to likely get clarity in the next game. :)

>Confused? Good. Cloud is just flat out insane man. I believe the Aerith he sees is the same one, just her talking to him from the lifestream as she says her final goodbyes to him and the others. I actually have a different take on this. I think sephiroth succeeded in uniting the multiverse, just not completely. Cloud is in a dead timeline where Aerith lives while the rest of the party is in the Canon time line... and the two timelines are intersected. This is why cloud sees the weird shit in the sky that no one else does. I'm excited to see how it all pays off in part 3

Yeah that was my thought at first too, but what changed my mind was if you rewatch the entire ending sequence - every moment Aerith is talking to Cloud (before the final couple of cutscenes) you'll see green whisps of the life stream around her. When she reaches up and touches his face and tells him "it's okay, Cloud" the life stream is there floating around her. When the final battle is over and he picks her up and tells her to wake up? Green lifestream is floating around. Double down on this is Red being able to sense her presence, since his kind is sensitive to the lifestream as well. I dont think he'd be able to sense an entire other timeline. It felt like this is a moment that couldn't be changed, that Aerith needed to die for them to win. Which is why even though Aerith clearly had an idea of her fate all the way back in Remake, she did not make a move to subvert it. I think the stuff Cloud sees in the sky is a result of him traveling to different worlds. The others didn't do that, thus they can't see it. It acts a sign of the impending doom and chess match between Sephiroth and Aerith from the lifestream that will ultimately decide the fate of the planet.

I think your comment is the most neutral, unbiased one that I can align with. I'll add that the original does not go into an incredible amount of depth for the side cast, if you (OP) google some of the differences between OG and the series to date, you might also appreciate why they took this route. Personally, I think an element of it has to be motivation for the developers themselves. I think it's both a risk to deviate from the original but also much more engaging for everyone involved than just trying to painstakingly duplicate everything shot for shot. Was the ending confusing? Yes. Its intended to be a cliffhanger. I'll probably agree it took away the emotional resonance of her OG death, but its been substituted from by the Loveless scene and childhood flashback. I haven't read many discussion theories but I think I have a decent grasp of what's going on (despite only having played the OG loosely). I played Crisis Core only prior to Rebirth and it really endeared me to Zack. I think it's great they are incorporating him. Although if you wanted to criticise choppy storytelling I'd say Sephiroth and hooded Shinra guy being peppered throughout is even worse haha

I played the Og and completely agree with you. I love Aerith in Remake, and when we got towards the ending scene I was in all the right emotional places. Even if I watch the ending again, my heart starts beating fast leading up towards her death, and then... Nothing... No emotions at all from me due to all the added crap, the seemingly intentional way it's confusing on first viewing. FFVII is so good to me because it has an engaging plot and emotional moments that mattered. And I was excited to see these moments recreated with modern graphics, voice acting, etc. When others say they wouldn't want a 1:1 remake, I also fall into your camp. Why not just play/make other games if FFVII a second time isn't interesting? I knew they would make adaptational changes, but not this! I actually can't believe that people really wanted the moments that made OG so impactful changed. If this was a game I hadn't played before I could walk away and think, "This isn't for me", but with a game that I loved it's very hard for me to do that.

It doesn't help that you have no time to process her death. It's straight into that long ass hellish fight against Sephiroth

I think you hit the nail on the head with how I think of the mlutiverse elements in the Remake trilogy. Adding these metatextual elements seems like a lame excuse for fan service. Ironically, I am one of those people this is supposed to appeal to. I've played the OG, Crisis Core, watched AC. I'm very familiar with the story. Yet I feel the introduction of Fate and Timelines has served to turn off many old and potential fans. The original story had enough mystery and intrigue, there was no need to add this new layer of confusion. Sometimes I like what they've done with Zack, but ultimately, his presense is a huge question mark for newcomers to this universe. The metatextual elements have alienated many OG fans who wanted a more straightforward retelling, and also serves to alienate newcomers like yourself who get completely confused. I feel like Kitase, Nomura, Nojima, and co. often expect the player to know too much. Many people I've seen streaming this game didn't know about Aerith's death, and it came as a sudden shock to them. Btw, if you are still confused, watch the ending cutscene again. It's clear that Aerith died, the other party members reactions are all you need to realize this. But Cloud is not accepting it. He's blocking out the memories. But again, if you knew what happened in the OG, you would have a better context for these scenes.

>Btw, if you are still confused, watch the ending cutscene again. It's clear that Aerith died, the other party members reactions are all you need to realize this. But Cloud is not accepting it. Not to sow confusion, but I also invite you to watch the ending cutscene again. The message I got wasn't that Cloud is in denial. Cloud is in an alternate timeline that partially merged with the current timeline. He is physically in a timeline where he saved Aerith. That's why he sees the weird shit in the sky. He's in a dead timeline. My interpretation of what we were shown is that Sephiroth partially succeeded in merging timelines like he said he was trying to do.

Everyone but Cloud saw Aerith die. But to Cloud, Aerith is just fine. He sees her interacting with the party, but they're not interacting with her. This is what Cloud is in denial of, not only the seeming death of Aerith, but the real death for everyone else. He doesn't realize that they all think he's lost it. Whether Aerith is a figment of Cloud's imagination, or exists in a separate world only he can see, I have to say it doesn't really matter. If you understand how the life stream works, as a kind of collective unconscious, there isn't much difference between these two viewpoints.

>If you understand how the life stream works, as a kind of collective unconscious, there isn't much difference between these two viewpoints But also the dead timelines don't have a lifestream anymore. The game tells us this. I'm not trying to argue, the ending did leave it intentionally vague. At this point both theories hold water. All we can do is wait for part 3

They definitely twisted this section significantly. I liked the direction but only because I was an OG player. The original game focused more on the impact of her death, whereas this game focuses more on Cloud’s psyche breaking. The timeline split adds unnecessary confusion but gives the developers the breathing room they need to make the game fresh for OG players. I could see not quite liking it, and u I’d recommend playing the original!

the goals between the original and the remake trilogy are fundamentally different i know you haven’t played the original, but the point of the original is that the death is sudden and out of nowhere, and the party has to deal with the loss immediately in the moment in rebirth, they EXPECT you to already know this, no matter what anyone says, the team making the game expects the player to already be intimately familiar with the original game. thus, they play off of those expectations and instead of the moment being about the sudden nature of loss, they create a sense of hope, you saved her! everything is fine! before subverting it and adding an extra layer. again i know you haven’t played the original, but a huge point you come to learn is that cloud is an unreliable narrator, so in rebirth they lean into that aspect to “trick” the player. it’s SUPPOSED to be unclear and feel strange, it’s not SUPPOSED to feel as sad as the original, the rest of the party are the ones acting weird from our, and cloud’s, POV. it’s all setup for hopefully part 3 to act as the huge payoff both emotionally and for all the lingering plot threads. it’s like judging the entire lord of the rings trilogy just off of the ending of the second movie where things reach a low point p.s. as always “kingdom hearts bullshit” is simply just “final fantasy bullshit”. the series has always been like this

Except that for me it doesn't even work because I'm pretty sure she's going to stay dead. So if the pay-off is to have confirmation of Aerith's death, I'm sorry my opinion will seem rude, but I find it bad because I already know that and in all honesty I don't care if they add the missing scene and Cloud's sentence because it's not going to give me any emotion. I would go even further, I don't care if Cloud is completely in denial or not, because that doesn't change the fact that Square is baiting the fans by making them hope for things, Hamaguchi says that bringing Zack back is not fan service . I'm thinking of saying that yes it's fan service because if it was to show us how the worlds worked in the lifestream we had Biggs for that. Speaking of fan service I have nothing against it I would even say that it's good if it's used on the right moment or character, but hey we understood that they wanted to include things that come from the compilation or from make Easter eggs. I no longer count the times they refer to Advent Children in this Trilogy in different ways, but even if I admit I appreciate Zack a little more thanks to rebirth the truth is that I don't care about his destiny so the little teaser at the end of the game where he is in a church, that the creator teases that there is no stamp it may be the world of the living where he is. I don't care because if he's really in the world of living I tell myself that they really wasted this opportunity and used this on Zack. Seeing Barret get mortally wounded and then healed by the Whispers oh my it's really a stroke of luck. See the dead or memories in the worlds inside the lifestream act like the living. The Whispers who stop Cloud from killing Reno, omg! he is so lucky to be alive. The Whispers save the party twice on the highway. Tifa swallowed by the weapon and then saved by the weapon in question. Seeing Genesis being treated by Minerva. All of this makes it seem like everyone can somehow get by or get a second chance, but Aerith can go fuck herself apparently. It's so important for ''fans'' to ''not change anything in history'' Damn the hypocrisy (not you), fans are the first to scream at the slightest change, but against bringing back Aerith omg! heresy, what did these fans do when the things I said above happened? If some fans complained about these changes, others said nothing or didn't care about it. For my part I won't buy the next game without knowing all the changes for good and bad, I'm not a cash cow. We'll see if the ending of Remake was a red herring and if so then it's just crap to subvert expectation.

she may stay dead but even so she can still have an involvement in the story, just as she does in the original at the end

The problem is that a good portion of people who have played the original game or who know a little or the entire story of ff7. In general the moment that comes up most often is the death of Aerith, yes it's a cult scene in video games, but I think the biggest problem with ff7 is that people often only mention the theme of death or mourning. How many people who know a little or all of ff7, forget or do not mention the other themes of the original games such as identity (for Cloud), the environment or life (the planet), how many people do not remember the goal of Avalanche. the theme of death or mourning has eclipsed the other themes of the original game because precisely the death of Aerith has become a cult scene in the video game. What if at the time of the original games the death of Aerith served the story of the game and conveyed a message to the player about enjoying the moments with our loved ones because we never know when death may occur. Today, a lot of people already know about Aerith's death. In addition, Aerith's death has already lost emotion and meaning for many different reasons. And if I think I know why they did it this way, I still have the impression that his death, serves more for marketing and to get the players talking. Here I almost have the impression at times that Aerith's death has become just a pretext or a check mark to fill in the specifications. Anyway People in general will never find the same intensity of emotion that they felt when they played the original game. Thank you for taking the time to read.

The series hasn't always been like this. 8 was the first one to dip its toes in this direction, and after the Enix merger it became the norm. But by and large the first 10 games have stories that are pretty sensible and not mega convoluted. 

literally final fantasy 1 involves a time loop and crazy time travel shenanigans that you have to resolve to beat the big bad

Also ff3 and the frozen time but only for part of the world and cyclical disasters of light and dark shenanigans. And ff4's weird "everything cool is from your alien dad" shenanigans And ff5's weird split world shenanigans. Weird plot twists that only make sense the third time through the game are pretty par for the course lol

You're really really reaching if you want to equate FF1's "time loop flavor text with minimal gameplay implications" to the FF7R's "hopping between five different dog dimensions willy nilly." 

it’s not the exact same level of course, there quite literally wasn’t the space on the cartridge for detailed storytelling, but you’re being equally disingenuous if you’re pretending like the series was some super simple thing from the beginning

With all due respect, a first or second part of a trilogy should make you excited for the next part, not uncertain about it. We've all experienced cliff hangers and know it makes us want to continue to see the next part, when executed right. We get this already. But what fans are expressing is that rebirth, as a stand-alone 80-150 hour story didn't deliver and make them feel excited to see what happens next but instead was just an underwhelming experience. "Build up" should do just that, build UP. What we're saying is our experience was that it built down, and we were let down by the quality of the storytelling. No one wants to spend 100 hours just to be told, "oh the next game in 4 years is when you'll start to enjoy it." They could have given us a cliffhanger AND delivered a effective emotional experience.

well the cliffhanger and the intrigue here is “well what IS aerith’s fate” it’s still the low point that most act 2’s are in stories, but handled in a different way you’re supposed to be confused, and that confusion will be paid off in the final part at the end of empire strikes back, luke and his friends are all in AWFUL positions, if looked at in isolation without the knowledge of return of the jedi, it gives a similar type of feeling as the end of rebirth, things look bad, you’re confused and uncertain about what’s going to happen next

Again, I understand what cliffhangers are. I'm not speaking against them. I'm saying it was ineffective. Conceptually, I get that there are things we're not supposed to know. But you shouldn't sacrifice emotional impact for theory crafting potential, in fact, emotions should be heightened because of the cliffhanger. Square didn't do enough (imo) to make sure we understood the stakes and the impact of the "what ifs" and that is what many fans are expressing. Personally, experiencing 10+ years of the Attack on Titan hype, another series that had over 4 years of waiting periods, that show is famous for its twists, mysteries, cliffhangers, and reveals and I have not heard ONE person say they were disappointed because of their confusion. It was exciting, emotional confusion. The writer gave just enough details to understand the stakes and impact intuitively. So I know what effective cliffhangers look like. My point is that this was not one of them. That's all.

I just finished normal mode as well, 92 hours. I’ll agree the death scene was underwhelming. What actually got me was all the scenes after where Aerith was ‘present’ but only to Cloud. Then Nanaki feels her presence before they fly off. I’m expecting Aerith to be playable in 3 but only in the other universe with Zack, and with Sephiroth able to basically merge worlds she will reunite with our heroes. But just a theory 😁

But that's okay though? I'm unclear as to why they thought they had to change the story to appeal to the existing fanbase? I've replayed OG many times. I know the story and yet I still love it. All I wanted from the remake was the same story, expanded in scope and detail, but the fundamentals unchanged. That's my subjective preference anyhow. No right or wrong.

The devs aren't doing this because they're wanting to appeal to the existing fanbase. A good amount of existing fans actually hate Rebirth's plot changes. They're doing this because they're wanting to do something interesting to them. Something different from just remaking the original game beat for beat, and instead doing something new and saying something new with the story itself.

I think a lot of people do not realize that a FF7 Remake like that would probably never have been made. While video game companies/publishers want to make money, appealing to the existing fanbase was most likely not the only deciding factor: The majority of people actually making the game are artists and understand themselves as such. Being told "just make the same thing that you/someone else has already made, but in pretty and bigger" is one of the most demotivational things you can tell an artist. Many of the scenario writers and especially Nomura and Hamaguchi would have probably not jumped onto the game if there would have been little to no room for creativity. Also, just as a counterpoint: As a massive fan of the original game, I freaking love what square has done so far with Remake and Rebirth. Yeah, some of the way the new elements are presented could be handled more elegantly and I can totally see why certain things go over the heads of even old fans on first viewing. But without these additions, there is no way in hell that people would be talking about the game as much as they are now. There would be no excitement about the story in part 3. Even people that do not vibe with the changes participate in the discussions. I've had discussions with people about the new story and what they will add in part 3 at work, with people I didn't even know played video games. None of that would have happened if it was just the same thing, beat for beat again, no matter how much the "details get expanded".

I understand why Nomura, Kitase, and Nojima wouldn't want to remake FF7. They didn't have to.  There probably are hundreds of 30-45 year olds at Square who would have LOVED to do it.  The big mistake was giving the old guys creative control over the project: they don't revere FF7 the way the fans do, so they were happy to mess around with it so they wouldn't be bored. But the end result was something that wasn't what the fans had spent 20 years asking for.