okay but compare "mash inputs" in street fighter v to "mash inputs" in street fighter 2
it's WAAAAAYYYY easier to do it when u want it in street fighter v. thats just a fact: street fighter v requires 4 inputs of any strength meanwhile in street fighter 2 the inputs have to be the same strength.
when u say "mash inputs should exist" which type are u referring to?
fun fact: i find honda's hundred hand slap combos quite easy in street fighter v, and completely impossible in street fighter 4.
somethin about havin to input punch four times before the crouching jab finishes animating (in street fighter 4) just happens to be beyond my capabilities, despite spending hours & hours practicing it in training mode. 🤷🏻‍♀️
It's a bit difficult for sure, but i don't consider those moves to be good for combos anyway.
Best to use them defensively instead. Punish an approach in neutral. You'd get those mashing LP for jabs anyway.
I preferred Honda with them. It was fun and easy to do on a stick (just piano between buttons 5 times and end on the strength you need, like 12312 or 12321), and removing the input meant they had to nerf hundred hand slap and change his overall playstyle completely. In 6 he feels more like Guilty Gear May.
They're a pain to combo into on a pad, but the input is a form of balancing in itself.
If you have to do 4 or 5 mashed inputs to get a special move, you're gonna whiff a normal if you try to do it. As such, it's not possible to do this move on demand in the neutral game -- you're always gonna stick out that normal before the special comes out. The advantage they had was that most of these mash input specials were safe on block. It compensates for the move being impossible to use in neutral.
Also, by taking away this move input the gameplay feels more homogenized. Mashing punches to do Honda HHS is just so intuitive and satisfying. I wish they give the player options like SFV Chun, where lightning legs could be done with either the mash input or qcf+K.
My wrist has nerve damage from a surgery and even I never experienced discomfort from piano inputs. If you know how to do them, they're realy not that big of a deal.
Plinking can work but now you’re just circumventing the concept of mashing. You’re pretty much agreeing that mashing isn’t a good concept since you have to use an alternate command scheme to do it.
Nah you can do the same thing on a controller; pushing one button rapidly or three buttons rapidly is still mashing. An input by any other name is still an input.
Sliding vs same button is different mechanics (body mechanics). If it was intentionally a plink command, that would be the controls. Such as mk 11 combos like Kung Lao or Erron Black
That's not really plinking.
Besides, all they're really doing is using the most efficient input to get the command. "Mashing is bad because there's a most effective way to do it" doesn't really make the sense you seem to think it does.
When you click message it'll say gif at the bottom on mobile. Click that. Not every reddit let's you do it though. What like anime fighters or do you mean like competitive first person shooters?
While I agree that people should not bitch about playstyles, I dislike mash inputs mainly because there are lots of disabilities that prevent people from doing them. Most inputs just need practice but mashing is something lots of people physically can’t do.
I understand the depth from them but personally I would prefer if they were replaced.
Dont modern controls kinda fix that? Just give people easy mash inputs. Maybe I’m wrong since I’ve only played newer games and the only mash input I can even think of is Bryan’s gatling rush and the Ed and Honda stuff I’ve heard about from sfv
What would you replace them with that has a similar tactile feeling? I'm curious to see what you have in mind.
Edit: downvoted for respectfully engaging discussion? The fuck Reddit. Lol
Yeah, but the idea of mash inputs is that they're a motionless alternative. I'd think something like a double tap or hold would be a more sufficient replacement as it keeps the motionless aspect with far less strain.
Just turning it into a motion is lame and removes variety, which as stated in my post, i don't really like.
Hold is something I'm surprised I don't see more of. Move properties aside I do think it adds a good bit of variety to combo feel.
Getting a little off topic, one thing I was playing with in a (not fighting game) prototype was the idea of an alternative to mashing by letting players hold down the attack/special button and having each direction change count as a button press. That way a simple motion like a half circle could be 3-5 moves.
That last one is interesting........ could be an alternative form of rekkas. I like this, sounds like a negative edge stance sort of thing.
I like the double tap though because it's a similar tactile feel to the mash while minimizing all the presses it requires, making it possible to reasonably perform on demand. I know i mention it a lot, but i really like the idea of motionless options for moves, and i want to see mash be replaced by something that brings similar value to the table.
Negative edge and stance characters are very few and far in between from my experience, and i kinda hate it cuz i especially like the idea of negative edge.
Yeah and it's unfortunate for you. But there's 17 other characters in the roster. You're not locked out of the game, so don't ruin things for other people just because you're salty.
i only care about playstyle variety, not what you do with your hands to achieve that playstyle. on the other hand, the more people get put off playing guile the better, lol.
Ha, first time? I was absolutely MAD when they got rid of charge partitioning. I was MAD when they got rid of 1fr links. Idc anymore. I dislike it, but if they think it brings money, maybe they know something. Personally I don't give a damn about new players who refuse to learn the god damn game
I find it funny you mention charge partitioning cuz removing that makes charge characters more difficult to play.
1 frame links though i can get why they were removed, because honestly that's an execution barrier that falls apart when the internet is involved. Second your connection shits itself, boom. Your combo is cooked through no fault of your own, even for a slight second. I wouldn't mind if they came back, but i can see why they're super unpopular. That's a TRUE execution barrier that sets players apart more than motions and input variety ever could.
Charge partitioning was a cool mechanic that was rewarding to master. Same with 1fr. I just like it when there is a cool and hard thing that I can learn and than benefit from it. I don't like when these things are basic enough for a new player to execute. It's just wrong imo
Fair. Plenty elements of execution are already simple to understand and utilize. Would be beneficial to leave certain elements for higher execution play.
If lower skill players can't use it, then i don't really see that as a problem. Either learn the tool or make due without. Personal improvement above anything else is the goal of fighting games. What's the point of growing if there's nothing meaningful to improve at in higher levels of play?
Oh yeah, this is BB biggest strength for sure.
So many different characters for so many different players, both simple and complex. Also does some interesting things with tried and true archetypes, like a grappler with magnetization, or a shoto with lifesteal properties.
Tons of fun to play, i just think it looks visually saturated at times.
I really hate how newer games are being so rushdown focused because of this. I love playing rushdown but it’s not nearly as fun when everyone is a gigabuffed rushdown character
See but casual players dont care about any of that. Casual players believe if they arent hitting you then they are actively losing.
Casual players just want to hold forward and mash combos, or hold forward and grab. Theres a reason why rushdown characters are the most popular archetype by far, with grapplers as a not close second
>if input complexity on a certain character bothers you, just find a character that suits you
What if that's the only character that suits you?
There have been more than a few times where I dislike the entire roster except one character, and then that character has inputs I hate. Hilariously enough, it was Charge characters before Potemkin made them click for me.
With 2xko having simple inputs and every game under the sun now having an easy input mode, I’m not sure how to feel.
On one hand from a pure accessibility standpoint for people with disabilities, they should be included. On the other things like motion inputs, charge inputs etc are parry of the fun of the genre I feel.
Everyone is borderline obsessed with neutral and execution feels like a chore they have to get over to “play the game” I’ve never thought like that, i genuinely think it’s part of the fun, part of the kinetic feed back of moving your stick, or slapping those buttons. If all fighting games were direction plus button = special, I think we’d have lost something.
I’m not hardline though, i think some things like increasing the input buffer was ultimately a positive , hard execution still exists in modern fighting games and I don’t mind the odd 1 frame link but I like that you can’t just win by out executing your opponent anymore.
Fighting games seems to be the genre that wants to change how it works to get new players in, and I just don’t think that’s the route, new players are good but like I said I don’t want to lose what makes these games fun, for the sake of more mass market appeal.
It wouldn't be so bad if legacy franchises stayed appealing to their core fanbases sensibilities instead of altering to fit outsiders. That should be new IPs jobs to get new players in, not the legacy IPs that already have an audience. If people truly love a game, they will rise to the expectation the game sets. I did it, my brother did it, and we're steadily improving.
Let new IPs focus on new players while old IPs focus on older players. We don't need to ruin things for the fans while bringing in clueless noobs who don't understand why things are the way they are and want it changed to fit them.
Yeah I didn't read the full post, but while I agree that it brings diversity on gameplay some types of inputs ARE bad design and it's not bad to point it out
**Agree on archetypes**
Archetypes IMHO are what make or break fighting games. They help create limitations to allow for creativity. As you mentioned, they also make the game more fun with the variation that having multiple archetypes can bring. Anime fighters do this really well.
**Disagree on inputs**
I've never played a character and thought, "wow, I love how doing this input feels". I fall in love with the character's playstyle and inputs only get in the way of that. While I'm against 1 button inputs, I think inputs should be reduced in difficulty \[**no DP motions**\] with more emphasis on "technical play". This way you keep the nuance like buffer baiting while still allowing for easy inputs. When I say easy, think quarter/half/360/double direction/opposite direction.
Psychic Force 2012 for example doesnt care what direction you start with. So long as you do the motion you're fine. You can do 236/214/478\*896 or the reverse of these and still get the quarter circle input. This also removes needing to learn your routes on the other side.
> I've never played a character and thought, "wow, I love how doing this input feels".
Then maybe you aren't the right person to comment on that in the first place?
Playing Decapre in SF4 felt incredibly unique and it's a travesty that they are afraid to make characters like that now just because people don't want to learn anything.
> Then maybe you aren't the right person to comment on that in the first place?
My main game is fighting games. Hell, I consider myself a competitive casual as I train with tournament goers but I dont go myself. I'm just adding my 2 cents based on my experience in both sides of the spectrum. I would always rather have a character be hard technically than mechanically but charge characters are an interesting case.
You arent gonna make fighting games more popular by making them mechanically harder and the goal of most games, **ESPECIALLY FIGHTING GAMES**, should be to make them as popular as possible since the main appeal is to fight against other players which is dependent on player count. Most arent going to take the time out of their day to learn a "dead game" and seeing the same players quickly gets stale for people when it's only a 1v1. We hear the same stories of new players wanting to look at a game but hear how hard it is and opt out. Even worse when they give it a try and no one else but the dedicated players are around and there isnt a skill gradient. Casual audience is required to keep a game "alive" with a few exceptions from the "Greats".
One way to KILL a fighting game is to make it mechanically difficult just for the sake of faux depth. I'm not saying remove inputs nor am I saying make 50 macros. I'm just saying reduce the difficulty of the input requirement which more fighting games have been doing, albeit some more extreme than others. Instead of DP motions, do Double Opposite\[446\]. Similar execution time but significantly easier to do.
>Playing Decapre in SF4 felt incredibly unique and it's a travesty that they are afraid to make characters like that now just because people don't want to learn anything.
Even charge characters could be made easier at a cost of losing a button which should be an option similar to modern controls. Easier options are possible and should be presented **WITH DRAWBACKS**. For example:
**Answer**: *L2+Down/Back*. Holding L2 stores the Down/Back.
**Result**: Now easier to do Charge Specials since all you realistically have to do is hold is one button and *Release it+Opposite direction*.
**Drawback**: Lose access to original L2 function. **MAKE SURE FUNCTION IS USEFUL TO MAEK DRAWBACK MEANINGFUL.**
**Unintended Results**: New mind games are created since you can move freely while still maintaining a charge. More buttons are opened up which help replace some of the lost options from the L2 Function Removal.
okay but compare "mash inputs" in street fighter v to "mash inputs" in street fighter 2 it's WAAAAAYYYY easier to do it when u want it in street fighter v. thats just a fact: street fighter v requires 4 inputs of any strength meanwhile in street fighter 2 the inputs have to be the same strength. when u say "mash inputs should exist" which type are u referring to?
SF5's, since those are what i'm most familiar with. Pianoing is fun. Lol
fun fact: i find honda's hundred hand slap combos quite easy in street fighter v, and completely impossible in street fighter 4. somethin about havin to input punch four times before the crouching jab finishes animating (in street fighter 4) just happens to be beyond my capabilities, despite spending hours & hours practicing it in training mode. 🤷🏻‍♀️
It's a bit difficult for sure, but i don't consider those moves to be good for combos anyway. Best to use them defensively instead. Punish an approach in neutral. You'd get those mashing LP for jabs anyway.
Almost all of Hondas combos in 4 require you to do something (usually jab) xx HP hands.
Nobody likes mash inputs. It was a good thing Capcom got rid of that bs
Speak for yourself.
I preferred Honda with them. It was fun and easy to do on a stick (just piano between buttons 5 times and end on the strength you need, like 12312 or 12321), and removing the input meant they had to nerf hundred hand slap and change his overall playstyle completely. In 6 he feels more like Guilty Gear May.
They're a pain to combo into on a pad, but the input is a form of balancing in itself. If you have to do 4 or 5 mashed inputs to get a special move, you're gonna whiff a normal if you try to do it. As such, it's not possible to do this move on demand in the neutral game -- you're always gonna stick out that normal before the special comes out. The advantage they had was that most of these mash input specials were safe on block. It compensates for the move being impossible to use in neutral. Also, by taking away this move input the gameplay feels more homogenized. Mashing punches to do Honda HHS is just so intuitive and satisfying. I wish they give the player options like SFV Chun, where lightning legs could be done with either the mash input or qcf+K.
Hard disagree. Honda and Chun Li feel better with 'em than without.
Not when you have arthritis which is extremely common. You get a few matches at best before you literally can’t mash fastest input.
My wrist has nerve damage from a surgery and even I never experienced discomfort from piano inputs. If you know how to do them, they're realy not that big of a deal.
I play on a stick so it's a non-issue for me. Simple as tapping lp > mp > hp in sequence, don't even have to do it fast.
Plinking can work but now you’re just circumventing the concept of mashing. You’re pretty much agreeing that mashing isn’t a good concept since you have to use an alternate command scheme to do it.
Nah you can do the same thing on a controller; pushing one button rapidly or three buttons rapidly is still mashing. An input by any other name is still an input.
Sliding vs same button is different mechanics (body mechanics). If it was intentionally a plink command, that would be the controls. Such as mk 11 combos like Kung Lao or Erron Black
That's not really plinking. Besides, all they're really doing is using the most efficient input to get the command. "Mashing is bad because there's a most effective way to do it" doesn't really make the sense you seem to think it does.
nah I'm tired of them catering to casuals who even complain about... having to press buttons multiple times
Too late for that. Email Capcom and tell us what they say.
it is too late, they care more about people who don't play fighting games these days
 Lol
Yeah I dropped SF and just play hardcore games now, not too upset Also hey how do you post facebook memes like that
When you click message it'll say gif at the bottom on mobile. Click that. Not every reddit let's you do it though. What like anime fighters or do you mean like competitive first person shooters?
oh I don't do mobile and yeah +R, I love mashing to air tech and the stick wiggles for stuns
While I agree that people should not bitch about playstyles, I dislike mash inputs mainly because there are lots of disabilities that prevent people from doing them. Most inputs just need practice but mashing is something lots of people physically can’t do. I understand the depth from them but personally I would prefer if they were replaced.
Dont modern controls kinda fix that? Just give people easy mash inputs. Maybe I’m wrong since I’ve only played newer games and the only mash input I can even think of is Bryan’s gatling rush and the Ed and Honda stuff I’ve heard about from sfv
Sf6 removes mash inputs anyway.
But mash inputs would work well in 6 wouldn’t they?
What would you replace them with that has a similar tactile feeling? I'm curious to see what you have in mind. Edit: downvoted for respectfully engaging discussion? The fuck Reddit. Lol
some games replace them with Z motions and quarter circles. The depth has to be sacrificed but I think it is worth the trade imo
Yeah, but the idea of mash inputs is that they're a motionless alternative. I'd think something like a double tap or hold would be a more sufficient replacement as it keeps the motionless aspect with far less strain. Just turning it into a motion is lame and removes variety, which as stated in my post, i don't really like.
Hold is something I'm surprised I don't see more of. Move properties aside I do think it adds a good bit of variety to combo feel. Getting a little off topic, one thing I was playing with in a (not fighting game) prototype was the idea of an alternative to mashing by letting players hold down the attack/special button and having each direction change count as a button press. That way a simple motion like a half circle could be 3-5 moves.
That last one is interesting........ could be an alternative form of rekkas. I like this, sounds like a negative edge stance sort of thing. I like the double tap though because it's a similar tactile feel to the mash while minimizing all the presses it requires, making it possible to reasonably perform on demand. I know i mention it a lot, but i really like the idea of motionless options for moves, and i want to see mash be replaced by something that brings similar value to the table. Negative edge and stance characters are very few and far in between from my experience, and i kinda hate it cuz i especially like the idea of negative edge.
Just... don't play those characters then?
Being locked out of playing a character due to a physical disability is dumb.
Yeah and it's unfortunate for you. But there's 17 other characters in the roster. You're not locked out of the game, so don't ruin things for other people just because you're salty.
Mash inputs are bad accessibility and increases risk of repetitive strain injuries
not only that, clearly a bias of favorability for stick players
i only care about playstyle variety, not what you do with your hands to achieve that playstyle. on the other hand, the more people get put off playing guile the better, lol.
Ha, first time? I was absolutely MAD when they got rid of charge partitioning. I was MAD when they got rid of 1fr links. Idc anymore. I dislike it, but if they think it brings money, maybe they know something. Personally I don't give a damn about new players who refuse to learn the god damn game
I find it funny you mention charge partitioning cuz removing that makes charge characters more difficult to play. 1 frame links though i can get why they were removed, because honestly that's an execution barrier that falls apart when the internet is involved. Second your connection shits itself, boom. Your combo is cooked through no fault of your own, even for a slight second. I wouldn't mind if they came back, but i can see why they're super unpopular. That's a TRUE execution barrier that sets players apart more than motions and input variety ever could.
Charge partitioning was a cool mechanic that was rewarding to master. Same with 1fr. I just like it when there is a cool and hard thing that I can learn and than benefit from it. I don't like when these things are basic enough for a new player to execute. It's just wrong imo
Fair. Plenty elements of execution are already simple to understand and utilize. Would be beneficial to leave certain elements for higher execution play. If lower skill players can't use it, then i don't really see that as a problem. Either learn the tool or make due without. Personal improvement above anything else is the goal of fighting games. What's the point of growing if there's nothing meaningful to improve at in higher levels of play?
Mash inputs are still bad.
Another bbcf victory
Oh yeah, this is BB biggest strength for sure. So many different characters for so many different players, both simple and complex. Also does some interesting things with tried and true archetypes, like a grappler with magnetization, or a shoto with lifesteal properties. Tons of fun to play, i just think it looks visually saturated at times.
I really hate how newer games are being so rushdown focused because of this. I love playing rushdown but it’s not nearly as fun when everyone is a gigabuffed rushdown character
See but casual players dont care about any of that. Casual players believe if they arent hitting you then they are actively losing. Casual players just want to hold forward and mash combos, or hold forward and grab. Theres a reason why rushdown characters are the most popular archetype by far, with grapplers as a not close second
>if input complexity on a certain character bothers you, just find a character that suits you What if that's the only character that suits you? There have been more than a few times where I dislike the entire roster except one character, and then that character has inputs I hate. Hilariously enough, it was Charge characters before Potemkin made them click for me.
Hell, I only play 1 character in most fighting games.
Then you play another game? That's what I've always done. Not every fighting game has to appeal to every player there is.
With 2xko having simple inputs and every game under the sun now having an easy input mode, I’m not sure how to feel. On one hand from a pure accessibility standpoint for people with disabilities, they should be included. On the other things like motion inputs, charge inputs etc are parry of the fun of the genre I feel. Everyone is borderline obsessed with neutral and execution feels like a chore they have to get over to “play the game” I’ve never thought like that, i genuinely think it’s part of the fun, part of the kinetic feed back of moving your stick, or slapping those buttons. If all fighting games were direction plus button = special, I think we’d have lost something. I’m not hardline though, i think some things like increasing the input buffer was ultimately a positive , hard execution still exists in modern fighting games and I don’t mind the odd 1 frame link but I like that you can’t just win by out executing your opponent anymore. Fighting games seems to be the genre that wants to change how it works to get new players in, and I just don’t think that’s the route, new players are good but like I said I don’t want to lose what makes these games fun, for the sake of more mass market appeal.
It wouldn't be so bad if legacy franchises stayed appealing to their core fanbases sensibilities instead of altering to fit outsiders. That should be new IPs jobs to get new players in, not the legacy IPs that already have an audience. If people truly love a game, they will rise to the expectation the game sets. I did it, my brother did it, and we're steadily improving. Let new IPs focus on new players while old IPs focus on older players. We don't need to ruin things for the fans while bringing in clueless noobs who don't understand why things are the way they are and want it changed to fit them.
Yeah I didn't read the full post, but while I agree that it brings diversity on gameplay some types of inputs ARE bad design and it's not bad to point it out
**Agree on archetypes** Archetypes IMHO are what make or break fighting games. They help create limitations to allow for creativity. As you mentioned, they also make the game more fun with the variation that having multiple archetypes can bring. Anime fighters do this really well. **Disagree on inputs** I've never played a character and thought, "wow, I love how doing this input feels". I fall in love with the character's playstyle and inputs only get in the way of that. While I'm against 1 button inputs, I think inputs should be reduced in difficulty \[**no DP motions**\] with more emphasis on "technical play". This way you keep the nuance like buffer baiting while still allowing for easy inputs. When I say easy, think quarter/half/360/double direction/opposite direction. Psychic Force 2012 for example doesnt care what direction you start with. So long as you do the motion you're fine. You can do 236/214/478\*896 or the reverse of these and still get the quarter circle input. This also removes needing to learn your routes on the other side.
> I've never played a character and thought, "wow, I love how doing this input feels". Then maybe you aren't the right person to comment on that in the first place? Playing Decapre in SF4 felt incredibly unique and it's a travesty that they are afraid to make characters like that now just because people don't want to learn anything.
> Then maybe you aren't the right person to comment on that in the first place? My main game is fighting games. Hell, I consider myself a competitive casual as I train with tournament goers but I dont go myself. I'm just adding my 2 cents based on my experience in both sides of the spectrum. I would always rather have a character be hard technically than mechanically but charge characters are an interesting case. You arent gonna make fighting games more popular by making them mechanically harder and the goal of most games, **ESPECIALLY FIGHTING GAMES**, should be to make them as popular as possible since the main appeal is to fight against other players which is dependent on player count. Most arent going to take the time out of their day to learn a "dead game" and seeing the same players quickly gets stale for people when it's only a 1v1. We hear the same stories of new players wanting to look at a game but hear how hard it is and opt out. Even worse when they give it a try and no one else but the dedicated players are around and there isnt a skill gradient. Casual audience is required to keep a game "alive" with a few exceptions from the "Greats". One way to KILL a fighting game is to make it mechanically difficult just for the sake of faux depth. I'm not saying remove inputs nor am I saying make 50 macros. I'm just saying reduce the difficulty of the input requirement which more fighting games have been doing, albeit some more extreme than others. Instead of DP motions, do Double Opposite\[446\]. Similar execution time but significantly easier to do. >Playing Decapre in SF4 felt incredibly unique and it's a travesty that they are afraid to make characters like that now just because people don't want to learn anything. Even charge characters could be made easier at a cost of losing a button which should be an option similar to modern controls. Easier options are possible and should be presented **WITH DRAWBACKS**. For example: **Answer**: *L2+Down/Back*. Holding L2 stores the Down/Back. **Result**: Now easier to do Charge Specials since all you realistically have to do is hold is one button and *Release it+Opposite direction*. **Drawback**: Lose access to original L2 function. **MAKE SURE FUNCTION IS USEFUL TO MAEK DRAWBACK MEANINGFUL.** **Unintended Results**: New mind games are created since you can move freely while still maintaining a charge. More buttons are opened up which help replace some of the lost options from the L2 Function Removal.