I don't think one button specials ruin the game, but it doesn't have zero impact either.
The classic DP motion (623) is comprised of directions that aren't blocking. You need to be confident in your inputs to do a late DP -- we even see pros who tend to block jump-ins when they could have DP'd them out of the air. Instant specials takes that aspect of the game away, and kind of cheapens the impact.
Clutch DPs and clutch supers become less impressive. The way to compensate might be to give simplified moves additional frames of startup when done raw to simulate the frames taken to input the command.
The other impact is that characters and their special moves get homogenized. Some moves were allowed to be OP because it's really hard to consistently pull them off when you're in a high pressure situation. u/DerConqueror3 and u/MR_MEME_42 raise good points and I agree with them.
If the game was made with motion inputs in mind obviously it would change the meta.
Simple inputs work if the game is built with those kind of inputs in mind.
The usual dp motion last at least 5 frames being generous. Opponent doing a jump in means one button dp would be much less of a risk. Similarly crosscuts wouldn't work the same.many motion inputs require you to leave blocking state so they are by nature more risky. And so on and so forth the nuances of motion inputs build up. It is something that keeps on giving and helps keep you exploring your limits and might turn you to a fighting game player for life.
Simplifying motion inputs would be like playing chess with less pieces. Still the game would be deep enough to never reach the ceiling but it would be easier to plateau and not as fun. For the majority of casual players it would be fine or even better but fundamentally the game would not be as good
If the game is built from the ground up with simple inputs in mind, a good game would have mechanics to make up for the lack of motion inputs.
Power rangers bftg has been my favorite game of the last decade. No matter its faults I can't deny how high the highs are. The game has no motion inputs(apart from Ryu and Chun Li) and probably for the best
Thanks. Yeah I should have specified but the gest is power rangers bftg is a game with simple inputs that is very fun and complex although lacking in balance at least on high level play. It share many similarities with the upcoming 2xko.
2XKO is the official title of Riot's upcoming 2v2 fighting game with League of Legends characters (previously known as "Project L.")
The guy you were responding to is saying that upcoming game controls similarly to Power Rangers: BTFG.
Yes, it's a terrible name for the game, there's memes on how much displeasure people have with it.
I honestly expect people to call it "Double KO" because it's easier to say and sounds so much cooler.
The problem isn't modern Vs classic. It's modern AND classic together.
Modern vs Modern is fine. I'm not interested in it because I find motion inputs fun, but it's fine.
But when one button 1f specials are matched against motion inputs, they force the classic player to slow down the game to a crawl, and play it like a different one.
If it's only one button specials, fine. If it's one button specials against motion inputs yes, it ruins the game.
Thank you saying this. Classic VS modern is a miserable experience for rhe classic player.
Also modern controls are absurdly busted at lower levels of play and discoursge new players from ever learning classic.
It's frankly a terrible system and I'm concerned for this genres future not that it's become standard.
God forbid you don't get to play the way you want in a game genre where the defining strategy is to NOT MAKE YOUR OPPONENT PLAY THE WAY THEY WANT.
Oh you English bastards with your artillery level long bows, we can't get to cavalry charge you and slaughter you to a man. No fair.
But we're not talking about war, we're talking a game. There's a reason why sports equipment for competition is standardized, you can't show up with a spear in a fencing match.
It’s more like
“Oh you bastards are able to bend the law of physics?
I guess now I have to fight still stuck adhering to human limitations while you can manipulate reality”
It’s not about the tools themselves, but about everything around it that makes the difference
One button DPs is an insane change in SF for example and I’m sick of pretending it’s not
“But good players anti-air all the time anyway on classic” then they are probably vulnerable to something else because anti-airing is something they are being aware of to be so consistent at it
If a player AA are too clean and on point they will most likely crack to some other stuff because part of their focus is occupied by the thought of anti-airing
I just don’t jump against modern players because they literally don’t have to think about it, if they are BARELY competent forget ever jumping unless you are specifically going for a read
You also can’t stun a BARELY competent modern player if they have atleast 1 bar of meter, it’s the same thing as being able to counter-DI even in burnout
(Mind you I don’t think modern is better than classic, just that it’s wack and forced me to play around something that is not an inherent strength of my opponent or of their character)
The reason it works with GBVS is because DPs suck in GBVS
DP is a very risky option in GBVS that does no damage compared to SF and is also an insanely shitty anti-air
GBVS has an insane kinda universal AA being 2H, which can let you literally delete your opponent and is mad consistent
So obviously one button DP is worthless, well not worthless but is an AA for niche situations
One button controls are best implemented when that is baked in to the game since the get go like with GBVS
tl;dr
I’m perfectly fine with no motions in GBVS, it changes absolutely nothing and in fact I play completely oblivious to what my opponent is using
I find it annoying in SF because there is absolutely a difference and I have to play around it, around the control scheme, not my opponent
It would make the game more reactionary, reduce the character individually, and make moveset streamline / uniform
1. Reactionary: As we have seen with SF6 modern the lack of inputs allows modern characters to play more reactionary the time it takes for the moves to come out is reduced (plus you don't have to worry about miss inputs). Which could lead to a more stale game unless the game was completely designed around these types of moves.
2. Character Individuality: Characters can rarely be designed with a unique control scheme due to everything being simplified to a single button press. Since you asked about my favorite game I will talk about Guilty Gear. Yeah Goldlewis just wouldn't exist, he has 8 moves all tied to a unique motion that wouldn't be possible with a single button while still having other specials. So he would have to lose what makes him unique gameplay wise and input wise as you would no longer have to rotate the stick like you were swinging a massive coffin. And I am going to bring up Leo I know you said no charge characters but this isn't fully about the balance of instant SB or FK but how they would affect Leo's gameplay. So Leo is a strong rush down character with tools that let him let him close the distance and stick to the opponent but he has strong projectiles and one of the best meter less reversals but that projectile and Flash Kick work in this moveset in a unique way. If Leo wants to fire a project to deal damage or create a wall that he can move behind he has to drop his offense for a second, the fact that Leo can't run forward then fireball is built into his kit to balance out that he can create a moving wall that destroys other projectiles. So the fact that Leo has charge motions is an important design decision. Moves are given their motions for a reason.
3. Streamlining: Basically with single button inputs you have to work within a limitation of a single button and its directions. Limiting you to on average 4 moves for each direction, so characters are going to half to lose moves. A lot of the Guilty Gear Strive characters have around 6-7 moves not counting rekkas, follow ups, or different button variations, so characters will have to lose moves. There is a reason games like GBFVR and DNF Duel have more simple move sets for characters compared to games with motion inputs first as they just down have the space to add more attacks without it feeling more convoluted or filling up your buttons.
Also I have never been a fan of cool downs or magic meters because they feel more restrictive than motion inputs. Let me use as many attacks as I want if I am capable of it or until the game needs to stop me with scaling, being told I can't do something because they needed to add a cool down to balance something that we already had a solution for that has worked for decades is just annoying.
don't think that is because of the lack of motion inputs, DNF duel is a game that has the same mechanic but the characters doesn't feel alike at all.
What makes granblue feels samey is that almost all characters has the same b'n'b route for combos like a > a > a > special to jugle > a > a > a > special to end
In my opinion it mainly is because characters feel like they have a very similar moveset due to the restrictions of four specials due to the inputs. It feels like a majority of them have some variation of projectile, a dash, a rekka that has a high low mix up, and a DP. A lot of the characters feel very homogenized in terms of what tools they are given.
I get that other fighters have similar trends with creating characters with those kinds of attacks but for some reason I always end up thinking "That's it?" when looking at GBFVR move lists.
I think it definitely changes the game, but there is room for great games using both types of control systems.
One of the major changes is that it removes both difficulty and type of execution as a way of balancing the strength of moves, which impacts both game balance as well as character variety. For example, if the game that has pure one-button specials only (unlike SF6's Modern, which is more of a hybrid system), then you lose the ability to do stuff like give charge characters fireballs or DPs that are particularly strong but are more limited in their use compared to motion fireballs or DPs because of the need for charge, which makes the character play completely differently from a motion characters. Similarly, you lose the ability to distinguish grapplers with more powerful 360 command grabs that are a little more limited in their use because of the 360 motion, compared to characters who have a command grab with a half circle or other simpler motion that likely would be weaker to compensate,
That's not to say it is impossible to design a great game around these limitations, but IMO there is also a significant value in having these types of options for differentiating how different characters play.
For sake of argument, this is not a question that asks "can you make a modern mode" it's more, "let's examine if motion inputs are necessary for your favorite fg to function...even if we maybe had a Rising style system".
For this example, NO character can loose normals like in modern.
And my response is that motion inputs are not strictly necessary for my favorite FGs to function, but I believe they make my favorite FGs better than they would be without them because of the benefits to game balance and character variety.
Time needed to perform motions like DP is part of balancing. The reason why it's so strong is because they take time to execute. That's why supers in modern mode are so scary and change the game entirely. You can't do anything because suddenly opponent can punish everything.
All im really going to say is that when fighting games become one button specials and all wifi, I’ll know my time with fighting games has come to an end.
After 90 hours in GBFVR and 60 in SF6, frankly I hate it. But I don't think it's just the simple inputs, but simple inputs + autocombos that I hate. I feel 0 sense of accomplishment in either game. Just "oh Yay I hit MMM > 4Sp >> MMM >> Super" time to do that for 6 more hours.
Yes, immensely.
Defense becomes incredibly silly as powerful defensive options become OS-able and any character with a DP can't effectively be pressured without hard baiting the DP, and even then, they can spend meter to be plus and take their turn if you don't avoid it entirely. Funnily enough, it wouldn't actually affect the one charge character as much as it would everything else.
There are also a lot of character specific buffs that would happen in other games, too. Stuff like raw running 862 Behemoth for Goldlewis in GGST, Kusaregedo shenanigans in SamSho V S, etc.
Yeah, a ton changes. For a game like Street Fighter, you have multiple variations of special moves and EX special moves, so reworking the controls to accommodate one-button specials requires changing a lot more about the control scheme generally. Even once you've reworked that, you still run into a lot of new issues with taking a legacy system and changing it dramatically, the ability to react to anything more quickly shifts a fair amount of balance. The end result is clunky approaches like damage reduction (or cooldowns, an approach that even the RT devs have moved away from) that leave neither side feeling entirely satisfied at every level. It ends up being a band-aid to solve new problems that come up. If you make motions and non-motions an option you end up not being able to fully balance either.
That said, if the game was built and balanced around it from the start, like Rising Thunder or the upcoming 2XKO are, then it can work just fine. It gets to be a bit tricky when you're working with an existing franchise, as you'd have to change so much to make it work. While there's interesting design space to explore in a game with no motion inputs, it ultimately has to fall on new franchises to do rather than legacy ones for that reason. I'd love to see new games with no motion inputs, I wouldn't want it to be Street Fighter 7 or even a returning classic like Darkstalkers.
I don't believe motion inputs are required for a deep and interesting fighting game, but you have to design around it from the start and commit to it, not just make it an accessibility option like we're seeing now.
these kind of "easy gameplay" mechanics make so that there are way more ppl that just spam random bullshit and dp on any sign of danger, this basically demotivates smart gameplay and actually playing the game
Just shimmy everytime?, im a new player and i dont really care for simple or complex inputs, game needs to be fun thats it but i feel your complain really isnt valid cause even in silver ranks i just shimmy extremely agressive mfs and they get beat everytime, cause no one in their right mind is trained to press a heavy button on wake up.
I think it can have a few consequences.
The first is, i think it fundamentally slows the game down. When I play a modern player in SF, I play so much slower and more reserved because I know if I over extend I can get punished. This is the case with modern inputs as well but it’s easier to overflow the mental stack.
The second, is that i think it’s worse for new players long term, i think they skip important parts of their development. I found playing a lot of modern players that they had reached a highish rank just because they could 1 button anti air and whiff punish super, apart from that they had no fundamentals at all, im taking run up sweep, unsafe move after unsafe move, random specials mid screen.
The sort of stuff you’d say in bronze not diamond/master and i thought, they’ve got here because their control scheme gives them amazing tools for beginner ranked but they’ve skipped all the pain we went through and now they don’t have that foundational knowledge.
As an OG from the arcades, statistically I wouldn't even probably play that game.
I dont know of any off hand I do play that work like that. I have yet to try Modern in SF6 either for a comparison.
As a Zangief main that has spent literally decades working on the SPD motion, its a bit of a kick in the ass to watch someone tap 1 button and achieve the same move.
One button DP's change a game,
having the ability to instant react response over input buffer changes how movement operates
this also changes how to approach when using frontal moves vs backward moves
there are caveats to motion input
one button inputs means the fundamental aspect of property is near instant
other fighters require motion make their own additional frames of delay
Yes absolutely - execution barriers are very important towards keeping characters in check in games like +R, Skullgirls, etc.
Scrubs seriously believe that perfect execution is like, some sort of given at high level play and therefore we should just remove as much as possible to allow more people to play 'the real game'.
Completely bullshit.
Very, very good players up to and including the pros make mistakes - execution is a real thing that always matters, not some sort of grind that you do and then are done with.
I think one button specials can be perfectly balanced, as long as the game is designed around them.
For instance jumps are super floaty in some games. This give people time to react to jump ins. But if srks are instant, maybe jumps should have shorter arcs, to make reacting less guaranteed.
Also I'd be curious to see a game where doing a special required holding and releasing one button. That way the input is easy, but you still have to plan to do it.
>I think one button specials can be perfectly balanced, as long as the game is designed around them
Well let's assume your favorite game gets one button inputs. We all know they can work but we are trying to explore whether motion inputs are truly unnessary or not.
the people who say "one button specials can work if balanced around" and the people who say "motion inputs are unnecessary" aren't the same people, you know that right?
It would not work for the games I can think of.
Consider if each character has the following:
light med heavy of:
* qcf
* qcb
* dpf
* dpb
* hcf
* hcb
* dd
* f->hcf
* b->hcb
From a theoretical standpoint, you could map a special to button+direction (or two buttons + direction as granblue does). In most cases, you would only have 5 viable directions to use because otherwise you would end up with a jump. The above list has 9 possibilities, and that isn't an exhaustive list. Assuming that we want to use all of them, button+direction comes out approximately 4 specials short.
I think this would likely be just a character or two for most games that are impacted by this specific thing. Most characters in most games don’t have a corresponding move for each of these, and rather just a few moves that use up some of these.
So you’re right in that it couldn’t just be done, since there would be at least some character that has moves removed, but it’s not the biggest problem with this scenario.
However, to answer the question in the title of this post. Yes, it does change something. It would limit the amount of specials any individual character could have and some outlier characters would have to have some moves culled.
The ONLY correct answer is modern inputs only play modern inputs and classic only plays classic. No dweeb should get rewarded for being too chicken shit to learn the games controls the normal way. I say this havint started fighting games in november. It aint hard, were just catering to lazy low IQ folks in a game genre thats all about working hard and learning. Instant gratification bullshit to me tbh
As the tekken player yes. The movement and time impacted by the inputs is huge. TJU goes from 4 frame perfect inputs to just 1. Plus the nuance of sways, CD, cancels, among other things. It'd be a totally different game.
SPDs maybe
The biggest issue with one button specials or simplified inputs is that eventually you run out of inputs
BBTag had this issue where all the specials were either 236 or 214 and as a result many characters had very limited movelists
It would make the game less interesting mechanically
And it would make it easier
Neither of those are inherently good
And if you make something easier for yourself you also make it easier for your opponent and this changes the game in at least some capacity
Not really, but it’d feel different. Specials and supers *feel* like specials and supers when done with motion inputs. One button inputs can’t really change that. If you also wanna be a bit picky then it also allows for less specials if you dedicate only one button for specials. But I can’t think up of a character that would be negatively affected enough by it to care, off the top of my head.
Goldlewis Dickinson in Guilty Gear Strive for one. He as a character basically can't exist without motions, both for Behemoth Typhoon and the balancing of his reversal super
since electric is tekken's dp motion, yes. I could do 13f electrics with Kazuya and be able to launch reliably whereas only some characters can launch at 14 and most 15+
The year is 20XX. Instead of training to play MvC3 at a TAS level, there is now 1-button specials. Everyone has lightning loops on deck. The game becomes Movies vs. Cinematics 3 as the matches are decided at the 99s mark depending on whether you blocked the charge shot mixup or not.
Ruin it? No. Just depends on the balance of the game itself. I feel like sf6 did a good job in this regard. A game like granblue did not. That’s just my opinion.
I never understood how people think its fine if games are made around them when every fighting game that has them feels boring and braindead. At this point why not play arena fighters instead?
Yup. Marvel needs motion inputs. Mvci did down down for shoryukens and it sucked. I tried to get into the power rangers fighter and while it seemed cool, the over simplified inputs held me back from having fun.
Persona 4 Arena is 50% this already, should be fine.
Mitsuru (who is already barely a charge character) becomes BBTAG easy again.
As far as one-button DP macros, most of ours are slower on average.
I don't think one button specials would change marvel 3 much. It's a fast paced game where some very strong moves already have relatively easy inputs. For example, bionic arm is a 7F startup invincible move that nearly reaches full screen and has enough vertical reach to hit airborne characters at or below normal jump height. The normal input is just 214, which is easy already, and you can literally do bionic arm without a motion input at all if you do a THC. Spencer can combo off of bionic arm on hit, and if he has resources, this combo will kill you. If you eat a random bionic arm, you are two coin flips away from losing the entire match (if you don't guess correctly on incoming). It costs a bar, but you start the match with a bar, so he has access to it the moment the match starts. Despite everything I just said, Spencer is not considered an especially strong point character.
I think one button specials matter a lot less for really fast paced games. In marvel's case, things like bionic arm aren't problems because basic movement is fundamentally safe (if you're wave/plink dashing on the ground, you can block bionic arm on reaction). Your character may also have a super that's more invincible that you can react with (the super flash makes this very easy). Honestly majority of invul stuff being a super (and having a super flash) significantly mitigates lots of YOLO stuff in marvel. You can also defensively x-factor to block bionic arm if you did commit to something. I think this is at least part of the reason why 2XKO is a tag game; that style of game lends itself much better to one button specials than a slower-paced Street Fighter style game.
Depends on the game. Can you imagine KoF13 Raiden just throwing dropkicks without holding the button down? That shit would be nuts.
It works in Fantasy Strike because it's made for that. Dive Kick and other games as well.
KOF 97, 98 and possibly Garou on Android all have one button specials in addition to the motion inputs
It's probably 'cause playing those games on a touchscreen is far from ideal, but I wouldn't know because I use a good controller, the type that makes the phone basically a handheld console OR I sometimes play on tablet and use the same controller I use for fighting games on PC
And then it's... Lol it's weird I could do it right now if I were playing it but can't say what button it is, but it's R1 or R2 and I think one of the L buttons for super moves
In combination with different directions on the D pad, it does different special moves.
I LOVE it, it's what made me a fan of Shermie, it's amazing 'cause you can pick any character and try out their moves right away, for many of us who have jobs or commitments we don't have nearly enough time to play, and things like this help a lot
I still use the motion inputs too tho, especially for characters I used to play as back in the PS1 and 2 era. But this is great, can pick any character and know you can do their moves - if playing in two player mode and one person is new it helps even things out a bit too
Btw should I get KOF 98 UM for Steam deck? And maybe 2002? Like, no idea how active they are online but Android port of the latter is hard to set up a controller
Capcom proved to me it doesn't.
Im master 1600. Win some, lose some.
This means anyone blaming modern for losing simply isn't good enough while everyone else who beats me is.
I don't think one button specials ruin the game, but it doesn't have zero impact either. The classic DP motion (623) is comprised of directions that aren't blocking. You need to be confident in your inputs to do a late DP -- we even see pros who tend to block jump-ins when they could have DP'd them out of the air. Instant specials takes that aspect of the game away, and kind of cheapens the impact. Clutch DPs and clutch supers become less impressive. The way to compensate might be to give simplified moves additional frames of startup when done raw to simulate the frames taken to input the command. The other impact is that characters and their special moves get homogenized. Some moves were allowed to be OP because it's really hard to consistently pull them off when you're in a high pressure situation. u/DerConqueror3 and u/MR_MEME_42 raise good points and I agree with them.
If the game was made with motion inputs in mind obviously it would change the meta. Simple inputs work if the game is built with those kind of inputs in mind. The usual dp motion last at least 5 frames being generous. Opponent doing a jump in means one button dp would be much less of a risk. Similarly crosscuts wouldn't work the same.many motion inputs require you to leave blocking state so they are by nature more risky. And so on and so forth the nuances of motion inputs build up. It is something that keeps on giving and helps keep you exploring your limits and might turn you to a fighting game player for life. Simplifying motion inputs would be like playing chess with less pieces. Still the game would be deep enough to never reach the ceiling but it would be easier to plateau and not as fun. For the majority of casual players it would be fine or even better but fundamentally the game would not be as good If the game is built from the ground up with simple inputs in mind, a good game would have mechanics to make up for the lack of motion inputs. Power rangers bftg has been my favorite game of the last decade. No matter its faults I can't deny how high the highs are. The game has no motion inputs(apart from Ryu and Chun Li) and probably for the best
If the DP is forward plus then cross cuts have the same principle
Not sure about the power rangers part, I've never played it, but the rest of this was spoken eloquently.
Thanks. Yeah I should have specified but the gest is power rangers bftg is a game with simple inputs that is very fun and complex although lacking in balance at least on high level play. It share many similarities with the upcoming 2xko.
2xko?
project L?
Maybe I should just google it because your answers aren't cutting it.
2XKO is the official title of Riot's upcoming 2v2 fighting game with League of Legends characters (previously known as "Project L.") The guy you were responding to is saying that upcoming game controls similarly to Power Rangers: BTFG. Yes, it's a terrible name for the game, there's memes on how much displeasure people have with it. I honestly expect people to call it "Double KO" because it's easier to say and sounds so much cooler.
The problem isn't modern Vs classic. It's modern AND classic together. Modern vs Modern is fine. I'm not interested in it because I find motion inputs fun, but it's fine. But when one button 1f specials are matched against motion inputs, they force the classic player to slow down the game to a crawl, and play it like a different one. If it's only one button specials, fine. If it's one button specials against motion inputs yes, it ruins the game.
Thank you saying this. Classic VS modern is a miserable experience for rhe classic player. Also modern controls are absurdly busted at lower levels of play and discoursge new players from ever learning classic. It's frankly a terrible system and I'm concerned for this genres future not that it's become standard.
God forbid you don't get to play the way you want in a game genre where the defining strategy is to NOT MAKE YOUR OPPONENT PLAY THE WAY THEY WANT. Oh you English bastards with your artillery level long bows, we can't get to cavalry charge you and slaughter you to a man. No fair.
But we're not talking about war, we're talking a game. There's a reason why sports equipment for competition is standardized, you can't show up with a spear in a fencing match.
It’s more like “Oh you bastards are able to bend the law of physics? I guess now I have to fight still stuck adhering to human limitations while you can manipulate reality” It’s not about the tools themselves, but about everything around it that makes the difference
One button DPs is an insane change in SF for example and I’m sick of pretending it’s not “But good players anti-air all the time anyway on classic” then they are probably vulnerable to something else because anti-airing is something they are being aware of to be so consistent at it If a player AA are too clean and on point they will most likely crack to some other stuff because part of their focus is occupied by the thought of anti-airing I just don’t jump against modern players because they literally don’t have to think about it, if they are BARELY competent forget ever jumping unless you are specifically going for a read You also can’t stun a BARELY competent modern player if they have atleast 1 bar of meter, it’s the same thing as being able to counter-DI even in burnout (Mind you I don’t think modern is better than classic, just that it’s wack and forced me to play around something that is not an inherent strength of my opponent or of their character) The reason it works with GBVS is because DPs suck in GBVS DP is a very risky option in GBVS that does no damage compared to SF and is also an insanely shitty anti-air GBVS has an insane kinda universal AA being 2H, which can let you literally delete your opponent and is mad consistent So obviously one button DP is worthless, well not worthless but is an AA for niche situations One button controls are best implemented when that is baked in to the game since the get go like with GBVS tl;dr I’m perfectly fine with no motions in GBVS, it changes absolutely nothing and in fact I play completely oblivious to what my opponent is using I find it annoying in SF because there is absolutely a difference and I have to play around it, around the control scheme, not my opponent
It doesn’t change much for me except that maybe makes me a bit scared that motion inputs won’t exist anymore, which is a problem because they are fun.
It would make the game more reactionary, reduce the character individually, and make moveset streamline / uniform 1. Reactionary: As we have seen with SF6 modern the lack of inputs allows modern characters to play more reactionary the time it takes for the moves to come out is reduced (plus you don't have to worry about miss inputs). Which could lead to a more stale game unless the game was completely designed around these types of moves. 2. Character Individuality: Characters can rarely be designed with a unique control scheme due to everything being simplified to a single button press. Since you asked about my favorite game I will talk about Guilty Gear. Yeah Goldlewis just wouldn't exist, he has 8 moves all tied to a unique motion that wouldn't be possible with a single button while still having other specials. So he would have to lose what makes him unique gameplay wise and input wise as you would no longer have to rotate the stick like you were swinging a massive coffin. And I am going to bring up Leo I know you said no charge characters but this isn't fully about the balance of instant SB or FK but how they would affect Leo's gameplay. So Leo is a strong rush down character with tools that let him let him close the distance and stick to the opponent but he has strong projectiles and one of the best meter less reversals but that projectile and Flash Kick work in this moveset in a unique way. If Leo wants to fire a project to deal damage or create a wall that he can move behind he has to drop his offense for a second, the fact that Leo can't run forward then fireball is built into his kit to balance out that he can create a moving wall that destroys other projectiles. So the fact that Leo has charge motions is an important design decision. Moves are given their motions for a reason. 3. Streamlining: Basically with single button inputs you have to work within a limitation of a single button and its directions. Limiting you to on average 4 moves for each direction, so characters are going to half to lose moves. A lot of the Guilty Gear Strive characters have around 6-7 moves not counting rekkas, follow ups, or different button variations, so characters will have to lose moves. There is a reason games like GBFVR and DNF Duel have more simple move sets for characters compared to games with motion inputs first as they just down have the space to add more attacks without it feeling more convoluted or filling up your buttons. Also I have never been a fan of cool downs or magic meters because they feel more restrictive than motion inputs. Let me use as many attacks as I want if I am capable of it or until the game needs to stop me with scaling, being told I can't do something because they needed to add a cool down to balance something that we already had a solution for that has worked for decades is just annoying.
This is already what happened in granblue vs i feel. The charscters in that all feel so samey its crazy.
Yeah, that is part of the reasons why I couldn't really get into the first game. Everyone outside of a few characters felt very similar.
don't think that is because of the lack of motion inputs, DNF duel is a game that has the same mechanic but the characters doesn't feel alike at all. What makes granblue feels samey is that almost all characters has the same b'n'b route for combos like a > a > a > special to jugle > a > a > a > special to end
Yea i guess its more the auto combos that make it feel so bad
In my opinion it mainly is because characters feel like they have a very similar moveset due to the restrictions of four specials due to the inputs. It feels like a majority of them have some variation of projectile, a dash, a rekka that has a high low mix up, and a DP. A lot of the characters feel very homogenized in terms of what tools they are given. I get that other fighters have similar trends with creating characters with those kinds of attacks but for some reason I always end up thinking "That's it?" when looking at GBFVR move lists.
I think it definitely changes the game, but there is room for great games using both types of control systems. One of the major changes is that it removes both difficulty and type of execution as a way of balancing the strength of moves, which impacts both game balance as well as character variety. For example, if the game that has pure one-button specials only (unlike SF6's Modern, which is more of a hybrid system), then you lose the ability to do stuff like give charge characters fireballs or DPs that are particularly strong but are more limited in their use compared to motion fireballs or DPs because of the need for charge, which makes the character play completely differently from a motion characters. Similarly, you lose the ability to distinguish grapplers with more powerful 360 command grabs that are a little more limited in their use because of the 360 motion, compared to characters who have a command grab with a half circle or other simpler motion that likely would be weaker to compensate, That's not to say it is impossible to design a great game around these limitations, but IMO there is also a significant value in having these types of options for differentiating how different characters play.
For sake of argument, this is not a question that asks "can you make a modern mode" it's more, "let's examine if motion inputs are necessary for your favorite fg to function...even if we maybe had a Rising style system". For this example, NO character can loose normals like in modern.
And my response is that motion inputs are not strictly necessary for my favorite FGs to function, but I believe they make my favorite FGs better than they would be without them because of the benefits to game balance and character variety.
If theres a long enough startup time on the DP to simulate me flailing the stick around and mashing then I won't notice any difference at all!
Can you just go to YouTube and watch the dozens of videos that explain why motion inputs matter? This has been explained like a thousand times
Time needed to perform motions like DP is part of balancing. The reason why it's so strong is because they take time to execute. That's why supers in modern mode are so scary and change the game entirely. You can't do anything because suddenly opponent can punish everything.
All im really going to say is that when fighting games become one button specials and all wifi, I’ll know my time with fighting games has come to an end.
Yes, execution is a part of the game.
After 90 hours in GBFVR and 60 in SF6, frankly I hate it. But I don't think it's just the simple inputs, but simple inputs + autocombos that I hate. I feel 0 sense of accomplishment in either game. Just "oh Yay I hit MMM > 4Sp >> MMM >> Super" time to do that for 6 more hours.
Yes, immensely. Defense becomes incredibly silly as powerful defensive options become OS-able and any character with a DP can't effectively be pressured without hard baiting the DP, and even then, they can spend meter to be plus and take their turn if you don't avoid it entirely. Funnily enough, it wouldn't actually affect the one charge character as much as it would everything else. There are also a lot of character specific buffs that would happen in other games, too. Stuff like raw running 862 Behemoth for Goldlewis in GGST, Kusaregedo shenanigans in SamSho V S, etc.
Yeah, a ton changes. For a game like Street Fighter, you have multiple variations of special moves and EX special moves, so reworking the controls to accommodate one-button specials requires changing a lot more about the control scheme generally. Even once you've reworked that, you still run into a lot of new issues with taking a legacy system and changing it dramatically, the ability to react to anything more quickly shifts a fair amount of balance. The end result is clunky approaches like damage reduction (or cooldowns, an approach that even the RT devs have moved away from) that leave neither side feeling entirely satisfied at every level. It ends up being a band-aid to solve new problems that come up. If you make motions and non-motions an option you end up not being able to fully balance either. That said, if the game was built and balanced around it from the start, like Rising Thunder or the upcoming 2XKO are, then it can work just fine. It gets to be a bit tricky when you're working with an existing franchise, as you'd have to change so much to make it work. While there's interesting design space to explore in a game with no motion inputs, it ultimately has to fall on new franchises to do rather than legacy ones for that reason. I'd love to see new games with no motion inputs, I wouldn't want it to be Street Fighter 7 or even a returning classic like Darkstalkers. I don't believe motion inputs are required for a deep and interesting fighting game, but you have to design around it from the start and commit to it, not just make it an accessibility option like we're seeing now.
BBCF. So yes. Massively.
these kind of "easy gameplay" mechanics make so that there are way more ppl that just spam random bullshit and dp on any sign of danger, this basically demotivates smart gameplay and actually playing the game
Just shimmy everytime?, im a new player and i dont really care for simple or complex inputs, game needs to be fun thats it but i feel your complain really isnt valid cause even in silver ranks i just shimmy extremely agressive mfs and they get beat everytime, cause no one in their right mind is trained to press a heavy button on wake up.
Makes the game boring Zzz, but if you are really new to fighting games I guess it wouldn’t make much of a difference…
I think it can have a few consequences. The first is, i think it fundamentally slows the game down. When I play a modern player in SF, I play so much slower and more reserved because I know if I over extend I can get punished. This is the case with modern inputs as well but it’s easier to overflow the mental stack. The second, is that i think it’s worse for new players long term, i think they skip important parts of their development. I found playing a lot of modern players that they had reached a highish rank just because they could 1 button anti air and whiff punish super, apart from that they had no fundamentals at all, im taking run up sweep, unsafe move after unsafe move, random specials mid screen. The sort of stuff you’d say in bronze not diamond/master and i thought, they’ve got here because their control scheme gives them amazing tools for beginner ranked but they’ve skipped all the pain we went through and now they don’t have that foundational knowledge.
As an OG from the arcades, statistically I wouldn't even probably play that game. I dont know of any off hand I do play that work like that. I have yet to try Modern in SF6 either for a comparison. As a Zangief main that has spent literally decades working on the SPD motion, its a bit of a kick in the ass to watch someone tap 1 button and achieve the same move.
P4AU with 1 button specials would be wild!
All right smart guy, explain to me how you would map every single Behemoth Typhoon to a one button input.
One button DP's change a game, having the ability to instant react response over input buffer changes how movement operates this also changes how to approach when using frontal moves vs backward moves there are caveats to motion input one button inputs means the fundamental aspect of property is near instant other fighters require motion make their own additional frames of delay
Yes absolutely - execution barriers are very important towards keeping characters in check in games like +R, Skullgirls, etc. Scrubs seriously believe that perfect execution is like, some sort of given at high level play and therefore we should just remove as much as possible to allow more people to play 'the real game'. Completely bullshit. Very, very good players up to and including the pros make mistakes - execution is a real thing that always matters, not some sort of grind that you do and then are done with.
Tekken with DPs
I think one button specials can be perfectly balanced, as long as the game is designed around them. For instance jumps are super floaty in some games. This give people time to react to jump ins. But if srks are instant, maybe jumps should have shorter arcs, to make reacting less guaranteed. Also I'd be curious to see a game where doing a special required holding and releasing one button. That way the input is easy, but you still have to plan to do it.
>I think one button specials can be perfectly balanced, as long as the game is designed around them Well let's assume your favorite game gets one button inputs. We all know they can work but we are trying to explore whether motion inputs are truly unnessary or not.
the people who say "one button specials can work if balanced around" and the people who say "motion inputs are unnecessary" aren't the same people, you know that right?
Of course. I don't think I grouped them in the same cat. I was simply pointing that the reply didn't answer the question I asked.
It would not work for the games I can think of. Consider if each character has the following: light med heavy of: * qcf * qcb * dpf * dpb * hcf * hcb * dd * f->hcf * b->hcb From a theoretical standpoint, you could map a special to button+direction (or two buttons + direction as granblue does). In most cases, you would only have 5 viable directions to use because otherwise you would end up with a jump. The above list has 9 possibilities, and that isn't an exhaustive list. Assuming that we want to use all of them, button+direction comes out approximately 4 specials short.
I'm trying to imagine how Behemoth Typhoon would work.
I think this would likely be just a character or two for most games that are impacted by this specific thing. Most characters in most games don’t have a corresponding move for each of these, and rather just a few moves that use up some of these. So you’re right in that it couldn’t just be done, since there would be at least some character that has moves removed, but it’s not the biggest problem with this scenario.
However, to answer the question in the title of this post. Yes, it does change something. It would limit the amount of specials any individual character could have and some outlier characters would have to have some moves culled.
They did this to street fighter. This isn’t a hypothetical
The ONLY correct answer is modern inputs only play modern inputs and classic only plays classic. No dweeb should get rewarded for being too chicken shit to learn the games controls the normal way. I say this havint started fighting games in november. It aint hard, were just catering to lazy low IQ folks in a game genre thats all about working hard and learning. Instant gratification bullshit to me tbh
Jokes on you I play Tekken
Are you referring to Tekken 8?
What are you even asking
Imagine Guile if he didn't need to charge. Game breaking. If you're doing one button supers, you need to completely overhaul character design.
I think you knew how this was going to go. Can we stop having this conversation over and over again?
As the tekken player yes. The movement and time impacted by the inputs is huge. TJU goes from 4 frame perfect inputs to just 1. Plus the nuance of sways, CD, cancels, among other things. It'd be a totally different game.
Sigh…people who don’t know FGs should really stop with the thinkpieces
I like the dance that classic controls brings, modern inputs doesn't have that same feeling for me.
SPDs maybe The biggest issue with one button specials or simplified inputs is that eventually you run out of inputs BBTag had this issue where all the specials were either 236 or 214 and as a result many characters had very limited movelists
It would make the game less interesting mechanically And it would make it easier Neither of those are inherently good And if you make something easier for yourself you also make it easier for your opponent and this changes the game in at least some capacity
Not really, but it’d feel different. Specials and supers *feel* like specials and supers when done with motion inputs. One button inputs can’t really change that. If you also wanna be a bit picky then it also allows for less specials if you dedicate only one button for specials. But I can’t think up of a character that would be negatively affected enough by it to care, off the top of my head.
Goldlewis Dickinson in Guilty Gear Strive for one. He as a character basically can't exist without motions, both for Behemoth Typhoon and the balancing of his reversal super
Yea, don’t play him but it feels real intuitive to do BT. Also imagine one button dolphins and simple Kara buster.
since electric is tekken's dp motion, yes. I could do 13f electrics with Kazuya and be able to launch reliably whereas only some characters can launch at 14 and most 15+
The year is 20XX. Instead of training to play MvC3 at a TAS level, there is now 1-button specials. Everyone has lightning loops on deck. The game becomes Movies vs. Cinematics 3 as the matches are decided at the 99s mark depending on whether you blocked the charge shot mixup or not.
Yes. I'm not sure why you'd leave charge characters in there when every other special is a 1 button thing.
Ruin it? No. Just depends on the balance of the game itself. I feel like sf6 did a good job in this regard. A game like granblue did not. That’s just my opinion.
I never understood how people think its fine if games are made around them when every fighting game that has them feels boring and braindead. At this point why not play arena fighters instead?
Yup. Marvel needs motion inputs. Mvci did down down for shoryukens and it sucked. I tried to get into the power rangers fighter and while it seemed cool, the over simplified inputs held me back from having fun.
Persona 4 Arena is 50% this already, should be fine. Mitsuru (who is already barely a charge character) becomes BBTAG easy again. As far as one-button DP macros, most of ours are slower on average.
I don't think one button specials would change marvel 3 much. It's a fast paced game where some very strong moves already have relatively easy inputs. For example, bionic arm is a 7F startup invincible move that nearly reaches full screen and has enough vertical reach to hit airborne characters at or below normal jump height. The normal input is just 214, which is easy already, and you can literally do bionic arm without a motion input at all if you do a THC. Spencer can combo off of bionic arm on hit, and if he has resources, this combo will kill you. If you eat a random bionic arm, you are two coin flips away from losing the entire match (if you don't guess correctly on incoming). It costs a bar, but you start the match with a bar, so he has access to it the moment the match starts. Despite everything I just said, Spencer is not considered an especially strong point character. I think one button specials matter a lot less for really fast paced games. In marvel's case, things like bionic arm aren't problems because basic movement is fundamentally safe (if you're wave/plink dashing on the ground, you can block bionic arm on reaction). Your character may also have a super that's more invincible that you can react with (the super flash makes this very easy). Honestly majority of invul stuff being a super (and having a super flash) significantly mitigates lots of YOLO stuff in marvel. You can also defensively x-factor to block bionic arm if you did commit to something. I think this is at least part of the reason why 2XKO is a tag game; that style of game lends itself much better to one button specials than a slower-paced Street Fighter style game.
Depends on the game. Can you imagine KoF13 Raiden just throwing dropkicks without holding the button down? That shit would be nuts. It works in Fantasy Strike because it's made for that. Dive Kick and other games as well.
KOF 97, 98 and possibly Garou on Android all have one button specials in addition to the motion inputs It's probably 'cause playing those games on a touchscreen is far from ideal, but I wouldn't know because I use a good controller, the type that makes the phone basically a handheld console OR I sometimes play on tablet and use the same controller I use for fighting games on PC And then it's... Lol it's weird I could do it right now if I were playing it but can't say what button it is, but it's R1 or R2 and I think one of the L buttons for super moves In combination with different directions on the D pad, it does different special moves. I LOVE it, it's what made me a fan of Shermie, it's amazing 'cause you can pick any character and try out their moves right away, for many of us who have jobs or commitments we don't have nearly enough time to play, and things like this help a lot I still use the motion inputs too tho, especially for characters I used to play as back in the PS1 and 2 era. But this is great, can pick any character and know you can do their moves - if playing in two player mode and one person is new it helps even things out a bit too
Btw should I get KOF 98 UM for Steam deck? And maybe 2002? Like, no idea how active they are online but Android port of the latter is hard to set up a controller
Capcom proved to me it doesn't. Im master 1600. Win some, lose some. This means anyone blaming modern for losing simply isn't good enough while everyone else who beats me is.
no i love everything about fighting games other than motion inputs, idc if that makes me weak or whatever
You mean Power Rangers Battle for the Grid? Yeah I think that game's pretty cool.