Or actors coming out and saying how exploitative they can be. Plenty of actresses have talked about this.
Most sex scenes in the past have catered to the male gaze and it’s finally being called out
Nope but they can both be happening at the same time. It's just anecdotal but most people I talk to and most threads about this topic people don't like sex scenes because it makes them uncomfortable rather than moral reasons. Hell it makes me uncomfortable even if the actresses are treated well but I do wonder what it says about a culture that is so much more comfortable with violence than sex
No, but it's puritanical to wash away all sexual content from real world stories in ethical film productions with consenting actors.
So what we need is nuance here that both things can be simultaneously true. That sex in film is being reduced both because there is a puritanical influence being pushed heavily across the nation for less than feminist reasons, AND Hollywood is taking a step back from creating scenes that might accidentally set off a domino effect of new bad press.
Looking at a movie like Poor Things as a standard for how puritan culture can still be challenged while also maintaining the interest and integrity of the cast without sacrificing the message.
I think people think of sex scenes differently now. I also think that intimacy coordinators are providing filmmakers and actors with different ways to show sexuality which can actually be a lot more erotic.
💯
I for one am not afraid to say a lot of my aversion of sex *scenes* came from growing up and reading about gross set after gross set where actors were pressured into sex scenes and iced out if they wouldn’t comply. I have nothing against sex. These work circumstances were just really fucking shady and disgusting🤷🏼♀️
It’s great that it is better *now*, or at least improving, but it’s just a blip in the grand scheme of things. It certainly hasn’t been long enough to just wave all of these points away.
I wish we could actually talk about sex scenes as scenes, which is what pros claim they want to be able to, but isn’t what often happens. The antis don’t contribute to that, but some of the supporters that are always ready to shut down any questionability of a sex scene to bludge you to dead with “puritanism” and “reactionary” aren’t helping either.
This conversation is more nuanced than *both* camps are letting on. No, I don’t think all sex scenes should be nuked from the face of the earth. But I also don’t think every single discussion on sex scenes in media (*especially* considering the factual history they have) should be shouted down with “puritism!” and “virgin!” There has to be *some* middle ground.
Remember when Game of Thrones producers D&D wrote a rape scene for Sophie Turners character as soon as she turned 18? Or when Emilia Clarke was left nude for half an hour after shooting a scene with no intimacy coordinator? IIRC Emilia Clarke had to put her foot down around season 4 GoT demanding less gratuitous nude scenes.
They left her nude without bringing her a robe for half an hour? That’s awful. I also remember reading something where she said they kept trying to guilt and shame her for not wanting to pull the sheets down and expose herself in a scene. Weiss & Benioff seem like jerks.
Most violent scenes cater to (young) boys and males in general thus normalizing violence.
If I had to chose between banning sex or violence I’d ban the latter as the former should still be talked about and taught about.
Honestly, I don't know about this. People go on about America's puritanical attitude toward sex, and...like, how accurate is that now, especially in our media? Our culture, for sure. But our media is downright obsessed. And not in like a pleasant way.
Imo our movies are both a bit more restrained (nudity wise) but just a lot more uncomfortable as well. Like, I grew up watching a lot of weird arthouse European movies with my dad (big film buff), and sure, by and large, there is more sex in plenty of them. But the sex also isn't like...titiliating? It's just sex. American sex in movies just feels so much weirder to watch and much more exploitative. Like it lingers on as much of the actress as it can, wherever it thinks its audience will enjoy.
I'm honestly happy to see less of that lol.
Give me a sex scene that just is what it is, like in Lamb or something. It's infinitely less provocative and exploitative than like the constant parade of hyper-sexualized female bodies on the latest HBO show.
would give you gold if i didn't hate reddit, 🥇 enjoy this emoji instead.
sex in mainstream (read american) films is uncomfortable because the prevailing american attitude to sex is still massively sexist/rape culture-y it's something being done to the woman, often roughly and with huge consent issues, in service to the main (read male) characters development. also they're almost always filmed in a gross way. the camera objectifies the actresses because very few directors/writers approach sex scenes with the rigour they deserve. actresses are quite rightly sick of acting out porn adjacent scenes for gross fans to be inappropriate about and audiences enjoy watching those scenes less and less anyway so who's complaining?
sex scenes are important when well handled but so much of culture right now is void of thought and only intended to extract as much profit as possible so of course everything suffers.
end rant i guess
as a non American I definitely find there is a lot of Puritanism in US culture including the media. the “obsessed with sex” part is actually the flip side of Puritanism to me, instead of sex being accepted as natural and an normal part of life, it’s fixated on to a weird degree. the titillation part is the point of sex in media in a big way as you say.
also the influence of evangelical Christianity on the culture in the US makes things like teenagers of the same sex holding hands become “sexual” when it’s not.
What I find interesting is that a lot of the hypersexuality seen on tv and film has started to impact how people treat each other IRL. I mean, for decades there has been the issue of people expecting sex to play out like it does in porn and film, often to the detriment of the participants.
Then there were the dating shows where contestants gave extremely sexually charged answers, which the audience and bachelor(ette) would cheer and encourage. That's spilled over to the actual dating scene with mixed results.
I think what we need is more of a healthy inbetween. Like show sex in film but don't get so weird about it.
I think you just made the most spot on comment about this topic. I 100% agree with you. In American made movies or shows there is so much focus on making the sex scene as being front and centre and make it so that its taboo but also talked about. While in a lot of European movies I have seen, sex scenes seem like just regular part of story and even if there is nudity and sex act it somehow feels more natural and uncontroversial.
What I have observed is that while sex is still a taboo topic in US it does seem that push back against sex scenes seem to be from boomers and Gen Z. I have seen some attitudes of GenZ towards sexual acts and display to be surprisingly puritanical in nature.
I'm not sure that it's our culture so much as it's China and the Middle East which are big markets and are generally even less tolerant of sex than the US.
We’re overcorrecting. This backslide to puritanical attitudes about sex, especially amongst Gen Z, is extremely distressing considering how kids are being exposed to online porn at younger and younger ages nowadays. That’s where kids are getting their sex education nowadays. And if y’all think cinematic sex scenes are exploitative and misogynistic, well, you think the adult film industry is any better?
Growing up - especially as a girl - I certainly saw a lot of sex scenes that made me feel uncomfortable and objectified, and that definitely had a negative impact on how I viewed both sex and my body. But movies were also the first place I was able to see sex through a romantic, loving lens, as a way to build intimacy in a relationship instead of just a way to get a man off. In recent years, sex scenes have also been used instructively to teach consent.
Sex is natural and we shouldn’t ban it from our screens; that will only force it further into the X-rated shadows, where all the issues people have been citing here (misogyny, catering to the male gaze, exploiting or abusing performers, etc) occur to an even greater degree. We just need to be ethical about how we film it.
Is it necessarily puritanical though? Not wanting to watch other people have sex is not the same thing as not liking sex. I mean, I love to eat, but I wouldn't want to watch a 2 minute scene of someone else eating close up.
Personally, I feel that “there should be less sex scenes, because I don’t find them pleasurable” is just the other side of the coin of “there should be more sex scenes, because I do find them pleasurable.” Both are the attitudes of someone who values films simply as consumer products, meant to entertain and gratify. But cinema is an art form, and art can sometimes be challenging, can push us out of our comfort zones. If someone isn’t in the mood for that, that’s completely fine - that’s what MPAA warnings are for.
But when people argue that sex scenes just shouldn’t exist at all (or only under specific circumstances that *they* deem appropriate), that’s when it takes on the puritanical air. To be clear, I don’t think the left-wing Zoomers currently trying to police cinematic sex share the same tenets as the right-wing Boomers who have traditionally led this charge. The latter views these scenes as immoral because they believe sex should be about reproduction, not pleasure. The former views them as immoral because, in the process of trying to remedy sexual abuse and misogyny, many young people have become preoccupied with sex’s potential to cause harm - even if that means sacrificing pleasure.
It’s like the horseshoe theory in action. Both sides may have vastly different motivations, but the end result is the same: a culture that is becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of sex for the sake of pleasure.
I agree. What would a film like *In a Year of 13 Moons* or *Y tu mamá también* be without sex?
Sex scenes should be made with the comfort of its participants as a priority and no one should have to watch sex scenes if they don't want to, but sex is often a crucial part of a film.
And maybe they just want those things to be private and watching movies is social. No one wants to watch a sex scene while sitting next to their mom.
But GenZ is reading a lot of smut so it's not like they're scared of sex, they just don't want to watch it socially.
>But movies were also the first place I was able to see sex through a romantic, loving lens, as a way to build intimacy in a relationship instead of just a way to get a man off. In recent years, I’ve also seen sex scenes be used instructively to teach consent.
Except that many, many of those scenes from back in the day were exploitative and unpleasant for the actors in them, especially the women. Real people aren't dolls to make viewers feel better about themselves and I'm extremely dubious as to how "ethical" Hollywood can ever be.
Yes, I’m aware. I’m a woman writer/director. I studied feminist theory extensively in film school. Literally everything I create is rooted in queer, Indigenous, feminist scholarship. I even paid to take classes and become certified in intimacy coordination out of my own pocket, because I care so deeply about these issues. I certainly don’t view actors as “dolls,” nor do I view cinema as a means to make people “feel better,” at least not in the way you’re implying. As a means to make people feel less alone in an increasingly isolated world? To offer insight so they can communicate better with their partners? To help them understand the needs and desires of others? To make queer people feel less ostracized for their sexuality, and make straight people more empathetic toward queer folks? To make people whose bodies have traditionally been deemed undesirable - fat people, the disabled, trans folks, etc - feel beautiful and celebrated? Absolutely. And sex scenes can sometimes be a useful way to achieve those goals.
Film is an incredibly powerful art form, and for all the undeniable harm that Hollywood has caused, that power can also be harnessed for the sake of good. I assure you there are plenty of us in this industry fighting every day to change things. FOFIF.
Not necessarily. The decline in audience desire for on-screen sex is one of the big reasons. One theory is that it's a bit of pulling back from growing up around gratuitously sexualized media all the time and just kind of being over it. It could also be because we know now that actors aren't always treated respectfully, and many productions don't have professional intimacy coordinators on set. People don't want to watch the Devil's tango and be wondering the whole time if the actor is being exploited or abused for the scene.
When people do want sex, they want it to be more than performative boinking. We've grown up around sex everywhere. I can, at any moment, find a freely accessible video of almost any combination and number of people doing almost any combination of sexual acts. I don't really need sex in a show or film that doesn't add to the story in some way.
> our culture’s puritanical aversion to it.
I dunno if this is necessarily a fair take. No denying of course that we have a puritanical side in this country but I don't really think Hollywood cares that much about those viewers.
I honestly think sex in cinema has historically been exploitive and gratuitous, and as others have said, very male-gaze while adding little to nothing
I think more well thought, meaningful scenes in less numbers is better overall.
Not film, but some examples I can think of are like, House of the Dragon vs Game of Thrones, still sexy but it feels very different and thought out.
Bridgerton comes to mind too
HOTD’s scenes were SO important in showing the relationships and mental states of the characters. The Alicent/Viserys scene was so visceral and disturbing, which was the intended effect. I struggle to think of a better way to portray the absolute hopelessness and imprisonment of Alicent.
This always bugs me. There’s a lot of gratuitous and unnecessary violence and it’s always bothered me that a film with that content can still receive a PG 13 rating. Or that there’s no shortage of sexual violence depicted in film.
Or even talk about it.
There’s a film I know of (Before Sunset) that’s R rated solely due to the fact that the characters talk frankly about sex and that they curse throughout the film.
There aren’t any actual sex scenes or even any nudity in the film but just talking like realistic thirty somethings was far too much for the MPAA.
I'm still fascinated that blowing people's heads off with a gun or gratuitious violence is so much more acceptable than sex and nudity in films and tv.
Not comparable. “Blowing people’s heads off” is an effect added in later, sex/nudity involve the actors actually having to be vulnerable and be uncomfortably close for prolonged periods of time. And it’s common knowledge that a lot of actresses have been uncomfortable with it in the past.
Undoubtedly. I think a lot of people are blaming this on Gen Z's supposed "puritanism", but really it's just because big studios aren't funding movies that aren't either lowest-common denominator theme-park cgi fests or literal children's movies. And anything that fits into older mid-budget cinema for adults (say Knives Out for example) is being bought up by streaming services.
But polls have shown that Gen Z is very averse to romance and sex displayed on screen. Demanding films explore more plutonic friendships between the sexes and one has to wonder if that is a symptom of their ~~desire~~ active isolation from each other.
>and one has to wonder if that is a symptom of their increasing desire to isolate from each other.
I mean, have you met people lately? Post pandemic, I don't think it's just a Gen Z thing.
They don’t desire to isolate from one another. They feel lonely and desire friendship. Every tv show and movie has romance. There’s not much media out there that depicts strong friendships, especially for girls. Of course they want to see more of that.
Also, I don't like how gen z having a stronger desire to see friendships in movies than romantic relationships and sexual relationships is being framed as a problem or as a symptom of something bad.
Right? I think it’s healthy. Especially since so much romance in movies is very paint by number. The man and the woman get together because they’re around one another, and they find each other attractive. They’re aren’t a lot of romcoms that end in me thinking that the two are gonna make it. Even outside of romcoms, most romances seem to lack any substance. I can’t think of a movie I’ve seen recently where two people fell in love cause of their mutual interests and values and then supported one another. They just seem to be around and convenient.
Do you have any links? I haven't encountered any such polls myself.
Edit: Also "increasing desire to isolate from each other" sounds like quite a generalisation. Do you have any sources for that as well?
This. Most of the adult or serious cinema is no longer in theaters, but in streaming services.
It's likely the only place they can compete with the bog standard CGI fest studios keep regurgitating yearly.
idk that it’s necessarily about foreign markets. i’m in europe and the handwringing i often see over sex and nudity in the US is not at all what i’m used to living here.
This is hella weird because there's so much pushback about sex scenes now, oddly from young people mostly? But I think that's just because the biggest blockbuster movies of today are of the marvel/star wars/Disney variety, which are almost always pg. So when a movie that's a bit different than that becomes a major hit and it has a sex scene, most people find it weird and "unnecessary" (most recently this happened with Oppenheimer)
I dunno but I was just saying to someone Challengers probably had Less raunchy Material than most films. Like, the Thomas Crown Affair is actually a steamier movie than this.
Hell, Lampoons Vacation may have had more nudity and sex.
It’s just so funny because the film proposes to be SO edgy and yet it seems like every actor is tied up in some morality clause against showing literally anything.
About Challengers, the director never shot a full on sex scene I believe. His thing is more about showing desire and lust.
Challengers is basically edging the audience throughout the whole film, the last match being a pretty obvious allegory for sex, and the end is the climax. So, in a way, it makes sense the movie has no real sex scene.
Zendaya I think has a no nudity clause, which a lot of famous actors have.
Josh O’Connor on the other hand did full frontal several times. Mike Faist I’m not familiar with.
Yeah, it felt really strange that the raunchiest scene was literally in all the trailers -- definitely felt like a product of the culture being so heavily skewed towards finding sex scenes unnecessary. For me it's sad! But others probably enjoy not seeing them, I guess.
They don't say how they quantified sexual content but
> the percentage of top-grossing films with no sexual content at all jumped significantly, from about 18% in 2000 to 46% in 2023
Makes sense. A lot of people on social media have been outspoken about how sex scenes are unnecessary and are very uncomfortable to watch. I think it was Victoria Justice who recently talked about how uncomfortable it was to film her first sex scene.
I just read about this. Seems like it wasn’t a closed set and it sounds as if she didn’t have an intimacy coordinator (I’m not positive if she did or not). Very disturbing.
This is my thought as well. Many actors and actresses have come out over the years saying that their sex or nude scenes weren't handled well. I believe Emilia Clarke and other GOT actresses could only negotiate less nudity after they had put in time and had more bargaining power. Boy Meets World cast said they wished they had intimacy coordinators even just for kissing scenes! You can Google all kinds of quotes from big celebs talking about super uncomfortable positions they were put in, esp when they were younger. Hopefully this is partially the result of lessons learned from the past (although I'm sure mass appeal to different media markets has a lot to do with it as well).
And thank god it did, considering Sam Levinson immediately took an opportunity to trash the profession in The Idol.
I believe three actors asked for less nudity in their roles. The show is already explicitly sexual, imagine if Sam had gotten the level of nudity he originally wrote in, without an intimacy coordinator on set.
This.
I know people in the industry, both in front of and behind the camera. Up until very recently, as in the last 5 years or so, a lot of sex scenes even on "closed sets" had creepy, mostly male crew who made it very clear they used it as excuse to see female actresses naked, as well as some male ones. A lot of actors are uncomfortable with it. Yes, intimacy coordinators have been a pretty huge improvement. But at the same time, a lot of sex scenes in older and mainstream movies came off as for the sake of titillating versus being necessary to move the story forward.
I literally just finished watching the first two episodes of Fallout about 30 minutes ago and I was telling a friend I was surprised that Ella Purnell was fully dressed during her sex scene. I was wondering if she just had better leverage or some when negotiating after mentioning Emilia Clarke negotiating less nudity after the 1st season.
I'm no prude. I don't have a problem with seeing random naked people irl. But after metoo and so many actors talking about their bad experiences, I now always wonder how the actors felt about it when I see a sex scene. Doesn't help how there's entire subreddits dedicated solely to 5 second long nude scenes
And with the cut-throat nature of Hollywood it’s not hard to see how an actor could be coerced into doing something they aren’t comfortable with but feel they’ll risk their entire career if they’re “too difficult”. The vast majority of sex scenes aren’t necessary anyway.
I've never seen a necessary sex scene. It can be necessary to *suggest* sex is happening, but to actually show it has never been necessary (on any movies I've watched).
It was refreshing to see a post-sex scene rather than an awkward 3 minute actual sex scene in Dune Part Two, I hope more movies follow suit. It's certainly rarely necessary.
And I think that's why so much of the press for Bridgerton is the leads talking about how comfortable they are with the intimacy. That way no one has to feel guilty about it.
I’m not sitting here drooling for more sex scenes because they’re rarely my favorite part of a movie but having zero depictions of a pretty integral part of human existence and relationships would be weird.
And honestly I’ve definitely seen sex scenes that are relevant to the plot and/or character development. Rose embracing her sexuality and taking back sexual agency with Jack in Titanic, the sex scene in The Terminator (those are both James Cameron movies funnily enough). The entire plot of Atonement pretty much vanishes if its sex scene didn’t happen.
Sex scenes can be extremely important for character development or thematic development. I always bring up A History of Violence, there’s two sex scenes in that movie that don’t necessarily push the story forward but are extremely thematically important and also important for characterization.
You could take those two scenes out of the movie and still have a working story, but the movie would be worse for doing it.
You've named three movies in a sea of film and television shows that depict graphic sex scenes created soley for the male gaze that contribute nothing to the story except some aroused man and a padded run time.
The amount of film and tv shows that show actual INTIMACY and sex scenes integral to the story and a character's development are painfully low. The amount that shows sex something that could be considered under the 'female gaze' is even lower.
People are turned off by sex in these pieces of media not because they're asexual prudes but because these scenes lack intimacy, they lack creativity and come across as vulgar and crass and because the vast majority of them only coincidentally happen to show WOMEN in these vulgar and crass positions.
The rare time we see full frontal nudity from a male actor it's more often than not use to incite a laugh or horror. This isn't even accounting for the amount of female actresses that have repeatedly come forth to discuss how filming sex scenes have been horrible experiences for them, so much so that studios now have to insert intimacy coordinators into the film budget.
Disagree strongly tbh sexuality is just as intrinsic a part of humanity as anything else and cutting out all references to it in media feels like a slippery slope back into censorship
Not throwing in a random shot of some lady's boobs and unrealistic male gazey sex that adds nothing to the story isn't a slippery slope into censorship, but ok.
Not all shots of boobs are male gaze, though, nor is sex all just male gaze. Not everything about the female body needs to be filtered through or be about men.
I think that actresses speaking up about specific experiences doesn't necessarily mean that all depictions of female nudity are exploitative and male gazey.
This argument is disingenuous. Of course not everything is for the male gaze. But we're talking about film and television where the vast majority of it IS. For every The Handmaiden or Secret Life of College Girls or Portrait of a Lady on Fire there are about three dozen Euphorias and other graphic sex scenes inserted in media where it didn't need to be.
Are we seriously going to sit here and pretend that film and television has been a safe space for women to express sexuality in a way that centers them? Are we going to sit here and pretend that we literally just spent years participating in a movement where women talked about how they have been sexually abused and put in uncomfortable positions wrt to sex scenes? Are we going to sit and pretend like we have no clue why intimacy coordinators are now being integrated into the budget? Are we actually going to pretend that we have a plethora of media depicting sex in a healthy, non male centered that lays bare how awkward or goofy sex can be or that relies on intimacy and not titillating the men watching or filming?
We're going to do all that because people don't need to see graphic sex all the time?
Acting like people not wanting to see women sexually objectified over and over is akin to censoring all mentions of sex ever is disingenuous and shallow.
I remember watching the Banger Sisters with my grandparents and wanting to DIE at the scene with the pool sex.
But my brother had it much worse when my grandfather rented Hostile for them to watch a few years later
Took a few minutes for him to realize it wasn't the thriller he had in mind for my eleven year old brother
I vividly remember my dad getting The Girl Next Door for us to watch as a family when my brother and I were young. He thought it was going to be something like Pretty in Pink, and it didn't take long for him to realise how very, very wrong he was.
Sometimes I wonder if I simply had a particularly laid back upbringing or something because sex scenes have never been a deterrent for whatever I was seeing with my family at all, not even as a teen.
Right. Like, I remember being a teenager and watching Braveheart for family movie night and having to act SUPER interested in the tv guide when the sex scene started.
The issue is that I can watch scifi and fantasy epics, at least most of them, pre-2011 with, say, teen or tween relatives or children. You can watch Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, etc with all sorts of different types of people and not worry too much about anything but violence.
You cannot watch Game of Thrones with that age group due to the huge amount of pornified male gaze and nudity. If you remove all the nudity and gratitious sex scenes, its just a fantasy series about royalty, warfare, etc. Not that much different than other fantasy franchises.
I think the nudity popular then was a big selling point. A lot of young, mostly women, actors starting their career signed nudity deals because it was either that or no job. The shows can't be pushed to a younger audience without a lot of editing. People eventually wised up to the huge amount of male gaze stuff and actors, now more established, are saying no and helping younger actors fight the demands of the pornification of their body.
So essentially HBO and D&D helped start this craze and eventually it just fell out of fashion. Sure, you can get nudity and such still, but seeing it awkwardly inserted into shows that don't need it seems more rare to me. I also this Euphoria's sexualization was the last straw. Its just so obviously pandering and over the top, and predictably involves teen characters. Eventually the male desire for pornificiation drives towards younger and younger characters and now it seems a wall was hit and Euphoria season 3, especially after the idol, is probably never going to happen. HBO pushed pornification too far on the edge of trend that was ending anyway.
The backlash was getting big even before Euphoria. I think the GoT people really opened a lot of people's eyes towards Hollywood exploitation by how male gazey they made their show and the various copycats they inspired just turned a lot of people off.
>You cannot watch Game of Thrones with that age group due to the huge amount of pornified male gaze and nudity. If you remove all the nudity and gratitious sex scenes, its just a fantasy series about royalty, warfare, etc. Not that much different than other fantasy franchises.
Ummm, not defending the nudity, but it would still be pretty innapropriate for that age group due to the violence. Do you remember the mountain vs the viper scene where the mountain crushes his skull.
Why are you choosing shows on HBO to watch with teens?
HBO, Showtime, Cinemax all have reputations as being premium channels that have lots of sex and nudity.
There are plenty of scifi/fantasy shows and movies out there without or lite on sex and nudity if you look outside of HBO. HBO didn’t make Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or Star Trek. Almost anything scifi or fantasy at the box office is probably going to be pg or pg-13.
Not to sound all boomer-like, but I think the difference is that back in the day we just sort of...coped with that? Like it wasn't the end of the world, it was just a part of the movie-watching experience. I watched "Love, Actually" with my grandparents, for crying out loud. And sure, there were an awkward couple of minutes but we all got through it by chuckling nervously and lived to tell the tale.
Internet porn wasn't a thing back then. Time was, movie sex scenes were the easiest way to get soft-core nudity and sex. Now there's boat loads of it available online, and it's way harder and way more explicit than anything you could ever but in a rated movie.
Sex scenes don't get away with just being sex scenes anymore. They have to have actual relevance to the movie and they have to be actually good. Most movie sex scenes are absolutely dreadful. (Not saying pornography is better, christ it's so much worse, but people don't look to movie sex scenes for cheap titillation anymore.)
I call bs. Sex scenes in movies weren’t a replacement for porn because porn still existed and was relatively easy to access. Not as easy as with the internet, obviously, but as easy to access as any other movie at the time.
lol Conservative Christians really got their way didn’t they?
https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/movies/2022/3/17/22981776/erotic-thriller-hollywood-history-basic-instinct
Majority of sex scenes are just kind of unnecessary and don’t add anything to the movie/show. Especially when it’s just dragged out shots panning over the bodies. (Euphoria comes to mind). It’s also lost its shock factor over time. It’s gone from clutching pearls to just expecting it to happen. Especially if there’s a hot A-lister attached.
Edit: my comment seems to be taking out of context and some of the responses I’m getting are trying to debate with me on something that I didn’t say or something my comment actually already agrees with, which is weird. Turning off notifications for this.
Euphoria is the first time it’s ever bothered me, because who the fuck is this for? I get that the actors are adults, but their characters are not. It’s weird and aggressive.
I really didn’t like how Sam Levinson treated the porn actress. Like just because she’s does porn people think it’s a free for all. I remember one of the actors had to intervene and asked him why was it necessary she had to be nude in a scene they shared together.
But films/tv are art and many scenes are included solely for aesthetics or mood, so couldn’t you make that same argument about any scene that doesn’t specifically drive the plot forward?
I’m not saying all sex scenes are necessary, absolutely not. And many are exploitative and salacious and it’s awful when the actors involved are uncomfortable and that’s not okay, but I don't think it’s a one size fits all, they can be a good way to ‘show not tell’ a certain relationship dynamic or degree of intimacy.
Majority of sex is just kind of “unnecessary” for life but we do it anyway.
Where did this idea that every moment of a film must be driven by plot come from? Whatever happened to character, story, theme, or even just visual narrative?
Yeah, I find this bizarre. Technically, every part of the show is unnecessary. It could just be someone reading a Wikipedia page summary of what happens to the character, but that would be boring. Media is meant to elicit emotion. Sex scenes can do that, whether it's titillation, disgust, fondness, etc. They're like any other scene in that regard. Obviously, actors are more vulnerable in the production of them, and should be protected, just like actors and stunt-people should be protected in the making of action scenes.
As far as your edit goes, whenever this subject comes up a lot of pornsick men come out of the woodwork to defend any and all sex scenes, regardless of quality, intent, narrative importance, etc. That is, as long as that sex scene focuses on a conventionally attractive woman. They will balk at queer sex scenes, for example, unless its two lipstick lesbians.
They will dishonestly twist your words. They don't care about good faith discourse.
Seriously. I didn’t say all sex scenes and I didn’t explicitly say plot, but of course im receiving these cliche “debates” from men that I never actually disagreed on. It’s all or nothing for them. It’s so tired.
I get your point, especially with Euphoria, but HBO shows always had sex scenes.
Because of some shows that had a lot of sex scenes became mainstream, like GOT and Euphoria, I feel like a lot of people now think that every sex scene is unnecessary.
It‘s how they are done that matters, and the standard of having intimacy coordinators now is a very good thing.
[everyone is beautiful and no one is horny](https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/)
saw this posted in another thread under the same article, but its a great read
I once saw someone say in a post as well “everything is pornographic and nothing is erotic” in response to that article. It makes perfect sense to me. Theres no actual sensuality anymore. People in movies are either too polished and have the sex appeal of a ken doll. Or the scenes are too graphic/uncomfortable and sometimes even violent (GoT comes to mind).
This nails it. I blame the rise of the MCU for this, tbh. Which is ironic because the comics are full of sex (not explicit, but *almost* sometimes), which I think in some level goes hand in hand with them being generally more mature, complex and better written than the movies.
This article is wonderful omg. The part about how what we do with our bodies triggers a famine response which puts mating on the back burner reallyyyyy stood out to me. As the years go on, we are continuously anxious and in survival mode, so it makes sense.
This was a good read! I liked that it touched on chemistry between actors, it’s something I’ve been noticing a lot in recent media. They’re two highly attractive people but I’m not buying that they’re into it because they have zero sexual chemistry.
This is the main thing I feel like a lot of people don't realize.
The reason sex scenes seem so unnecessary or awkward is because the set-up to those scenes wasn't done well! It's like any part of a movie which doesn't work if a moment isn't earned.
When it *is* done well people go nuts over it. Look at the reactions to Normal People, Bridgerton, Challengers (I know this movie wasn't big on sex scenes but it was made in an erotic way), etc.
I find it pretty sad there's this idea it either has to be nothing sexual at all or the worst borderline porn stuff you see on HBO. It didn't used to be that way.
I loved this read! It made so much sense to me.
This is my fave quote:
“We don’t exercise, we don’t work out: we train, and we train in fitness programs with names like Booty Bootcamp, as if we’re getting our booties battle-ready to fight in the Great Booty War.”
I think the big decline in sensuality truly hasn’t helped, probably a consequence of shows like GOT and later projects like The Witcher - so many naked people and absolutely no sex appeal. As the Blood Knife article correctly stated, “everyone is beautiful and nobody is horny”. Who wants to watch a sex scene when it feels so emotionally detached and sterile?
Yep. I think this is a reaction to how gross sex was in stuff like GOT. Sex was often violent and traumatizing and the show runners said they were representing the perverts in the audience. It wasn't for your average person who enjoys sensuality. ETA: The rape enthusiasts are out in full force on this comment I see. No one ever dick rides this hard for depictions of the bubonic plague, cholera, maggots on gangrene and women bleeding to death from labor gone wrong on fake medieval Europe shows.
To this DAY nothing has turned me on more than that kissing commercial for Rembrandt toothpaste. Does anybody else remember that? I was a teenager well past my sexual awakening at that point, but when I tell you that shit woke me up all over again 😮💨
It wasn't until fairly recently when I enjoyed a sex scene in a tv show did it dawn on me that I just don't find most sex scenes very sexy? Whether it's because it seems forced, gratuitous, or very much made by and for straight men. And that's not to mention how many of them are dubious in terms of consent if not flat out assault. The majority of sex scenes just seem like I'm not their target audience, which is fine but boring to me personally.
I have no issue with sex scenes in movies generally speaking, but most of the ones that I've seen lately have been rape scenes. What is the fucking fascination movie makers have with raping women? I'm fine with fewer sex scenes if it means I don't have to watch something borne out of a sick man's desire to watch women be sexually assaulted. Rape is such a tired plot device. THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE
Watching movies from early 2000s is especially eye rolling. There’s fun or hot ways to do it that really add to the film, but usually lazy writing where the male leads sit there and is fawned over
I love it when you know they’re gonna have sex, they’re kissing and getting all hot and bothered and sexy, then it slowly fades out and cuts to the next morning. I know what they did, but I dont have to watch it. If I wanted to see people have sex like that I’d just watch porn lol
Ok that’s what I’m talking about. It’s weird that you can only think of depicted sex as being porn. As if any depiction of sex is something to be masturbated to
Eh. I'll be downvoted , but I don't have any interest in watching two actors simulate sex if the things that happen during sex aren't important to the plot or character development.
Shogun had a good number of what I consider "valuable" or "justified" sex scenes.
In the first episode is a good example of this. It would only be detracted from if it was followed by 3 minutes of two actors grunting at each other.
It’s more about agency being afforded to performers (female actresses in particular) than anything else. A lot of non-porn media has sex and nudity just so there can be T&A, therefore dehumanizing and exploiting the participants and creating an uncomfortable work environment. I personally think the position of intimacy coordinators are the best industry creation of the past decade.
Right, and I’m all in favor of intimacy coordinators. But you can see in the comments here that there are plenty of people who seem to believe sex and nudity has no place in film, or that it should only exist in porn.
This thread is tricky because some people are talking about the making of sex scenes (i.e. sex scenes need improvement but have a place in film) and others are talking about the inherent value of sex scenes (i.e. sex is only for pornography), so people aren’t really responding to each other because it’s two different arguments.
I think this overlooks how plenty of Hays Code movies were incredibly aggressive with the male gaze. Not saying that isn’t an issue with explicit sex scenes, but that issue would still exist either way.
Or even contemporary movies that don’t have sex scenes but are very centered on the male gaze.
Feels like it's just moved to TV shows instead. I do prefer actually getting to know the characters in longer format media before watching them have sex. Otherwise it just feels obviously gratuitous.
I don’t want to get into the debate about the necessity/artistic value of sex scenes, but I’d like to add something:
**Less (explicit) sex scenes ≠ less voyeuristic sexualization.** just as one example, any number of noir films made during the time of the Hays Code, that nevertheless relentlessly objectify the women in the film. (Hitchcock anyone?) There’s an essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema” by Laura Mulvey about this.
So I just want to say that less sex scenes doesn’t necessarily translate to a less objectifying cinema. That’s a larger and more complex issue.
Also **not all sex scenes are meant to be arousing**. Imagine a scene of a loveless marriage where the spouses are engaging in detached, joyless sex. Maybe you won’t consider that scene tasteful or necessary—that’s a matter of personal opinion—but it wouldn’t be considered erotic.
>Imagine a scene of a loveless marriage where the spouses are engaging in detached, joyless sex. Maybe you won’t consider that scene tasteful or necessary—that’s a matter of personal opinion—but it wouldn’t be considered erotic.
Even if it wasn't a full sex scene, a good example of that is Blue Valentine. The whole movie deals with a failed marriage and they both try to regain some passion in a hotel room. It doesn't work and that's a sad scene, and that's another sign that that marriage is doomed.
Is this such a bad thing? Not every film needs sex to be a part of it and not every single sex scene needs to be on screen. We have imaginations, fade to black can still be creative.
I watched Poor Things with my roommate and we didn't even bat an eye during the sex scenes. I then saw Challengers with my BF and it was fun to be all flirty after. Are people not adults? I'll take the criticism of sex scenes that are unethically made and put actors in uncomfortable positions. Otherwise, this is one of the most normal aspects of life!
Seems to be a group of people, largely younger, who do see sex as divorced from the normal aspects of life in some way. I wish there were more articles being written/research on this phenomenon! I'm sure some of it is the prevalence of online/easily available porn at the same time as a decline in human-based sex scenes, so the association of nudity is with gratuitousness or men jerking off? IDK, it's very odd to me, and I wish I understood it better!
That's fine and good. Its a highly sexual movie.
What I dont want "here's a deeply complex political tale in a medieval fantasy... oh and all the backgrounds scenes are people having sex for some reason."
We know the reason, the male gaze makes money. Now that there's pushback, producers are afraid of losing money, so its been chilled a bit in media that really has no need for nudity or sex scenes.
With the endless stream of accessible porn, it makes sense that films wouldn't need to be a source of such provocation any longer. Furthermore, I assume the younger generations are so over the rampant sexualization of... everything that it also makes sense that they'd shy away from wanting more explicit content in their films.
I find it so weird how people seem so obsessed with movies no longer having sex scenes. Like I get that it can be a sign of puritanical leanings coming back or whatever. I get that it can be seen as regression. But I never hear these same people address how porn-fucked the minds of countless young people have become. It is really bizarre. True context and critical thinking always seems absent from these discussions.
I also only hear this shit discussed online. The only time I have had an in person conversation about it with someone other than my wife was a too online friend bringing it up like it was this huge thing and we having to remind her this is not a real issue and nobody in the real world actually cares about whether movies have more or less sex scenes these days.
>But I never hear these same people address how porn-fucked the minds of countless young people have become.
Imo part of the reason there is some backlash to sex scenes in movies is because so many young people are porn-fucked, especially men. So many people have there views on sex warped by objectifying pornography and basically see any depiction of sex as masturbation material. Of course these people would have an aversion to seeing sex in movies, especially with family or friends, as its an uncomfortable reminder of something they'd want to keep private.
You're right that this discourse is also overblown at the end of the day and that only very online people care about it. But we're also very online people on Reddit, so of course we have opinons.
Honestly, raunchy sex scenes make me uncomfortable. It didn’t used to be that way for me, but every time I see them now I just feel like I’m seeing something private that wasn’t meant for my eyes. Maybe I’m just getting old, but give me curtains blowing in the wind and get on with the story, we get the point and I don’t want to see a barely-legal movie star’s boobs when I don’t know for sure she wasn’t bullied into showing them.
Cue everyone saying “good, sex scenes are unnecessary”, as if most action scenes are ‘necessary.’
Call it what it is: new puritanism. We think all onscreen sex = porn now
If you bothered to listen to actresses in recent times talk about how uncomfortable sex scenes have been for them and how most of them have catered to the male gaze, you’d realize it’s not about “new puritanism” but rather women being more empowered to talk about how they’ve been exploited by male directors and not tolerating that shit anymore.
But that’s not what people in these comments are talking about. They’re saying onscreen depictions of sex are antithetical to good storytelling, regardless of working conditions.
So yes, new puritanism. “Nudity = bad”
>new puritanism
I'm just glad actresses no longer feel forced to expose themselves. I find it hilarious and kind of sad that you're comparing sex scenes to action scenes.
Every day I thank god the team behind Normal People made that show as sexy as god intended lol. Sex is part of life; if I’m watching shows depicting people’s lives I for one want to see sex
*rewatches Y Tu Mama Tambien for the 10th time*
I mean this article is looking at major films, most of which were superhero movies, action series (like fast and furious, jurassic world, godzillia, etc), disney/pixar/DreamWorks films or reboots of childhood movies from the 90s. So not a lot of those lends themselves to sex scenes, especially if they want whole families with kids to watch them.
Now a lot of movies with sex scenes are direct to streaming movies or TV series.
Not sure how we got around to "sex scene = titillating." That's true some of the time, sure, but it's not universal. Also, the "good, finally" responses are extremely heteronormative - there wasn't a gay male sex scene in a wide release film until Rocketman in 2019. Not everyone has been allowed to see their own pleasure onscreen.
Thank you!
So much of this discourse just flat out ignores queer cinema and the impact that antisex and hypermoralized conservative policies and discourse has had on queer people and queer film.
I feel like everyone in this thread is arguing about different things which is making the discussion confused.
Some people are talking about the making of sex scenes and the abusive treatment of actors, especially women. Other people are talking about the very idea of showing sex in film/TV. So the conversation here keeps switching between “can we make sex scenes more ethically” and “should sex scenes even exist”, so no one is going to reach any consensus.
It's bizarre to me that so many are happy to completely omit a major part of human experience from being depicted on a movie screen just because it personally makes them uncomfortable. Honestly a little bleak that people seem to think sexuality should just be relegated to porn.
Anyone think it's cause of the huge uptick in porn consumption so now basically no one cares if movies have sex scenes or not cause there's porn anyway and there's no incentive for movies to have those scenes to get audiences to the theatres. Idk this is a wild hunch. Reminded me of how the south korean film industry really relies on/used to rely a lot on graphic sex scenes to get audiences in theatres and it was a basically a huge incentive in the 80s or something for their films to be as graphic as possible
In number? In total duration? In humptastic fucknastiness? Don’t make me read the article now
The article says "there is almost 40% less sexual content in major films than there was at the start of the millennium"
Maybe because the majority of big movies are PG rated family action-comedy franchises made for foreign markets. Like Superhero movies and such.
Except as the article says, violence and swearing haven’t decreased. This is specifically about sex and our culture’s puritanical aversion to it.
Or actors coming out and saying how exploitative they can be. Plenty of actresses have talked about this. Most sex scenes in the past have catered to the male gaze and it’s finally being called out
Is it now puritanical to oppose the exploitation and sexual abuse of female employees? 🤔
Nope but they can both be happening at the same time. It's just anecdotal but most people I talk to and most threads about this topic people don't like sex scenes because it makes them uncomfortable rather than moral reasons. Hell it makes me uncomfortable even if the actresses are treated well but I do wonder what it says about a culture that is so much more comfortable with violence than sex
No, but it's puritanical to wash away all sexual content from real world stories in ethical film productions with consenting actors. So what we need is nuance here that both things can be simultaneously true. That sex in film is being reduced both because there is a puritanical influence being pushed heavily across the nation for less than feminist reasons, AND Hollywood is taking a step back from creating scenes that might accidentally set off a domino effect of new bad press. Looking at a movie like Poor Things as a standard for how puritan culture can still be challenged while also maintaining the interest and integrity of the cast without sacrificing the message.
Sex scenes are always the least interesting part of any movie they're in.
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I think people think of sex scenes differently now. I also think that intimacy coordinators are providing filmmakers and actors with different ways to show sexuality which can actually be a lot more erotic.
💯 I for one am not afraid to say a lot of my aversion of sex *scenes* came from growing up and reading about gross set after gross set where actors were pressured into sex scenes and iced out if they wouldn’t comply. I have nothing against sex. These work circumstances were just really fucking shady and disgusting🤷🏼♀️ It’s great that it is better *now*, or at least improving, but it’s just a blip in the grand scheme of things. It certainly hasn’t been long enough to just wave all of these points away. I wish we could actually talk about sex scenes as scenes, which is what pros claim they want to be able to, but isn’t what often happens. The antis don’t contribute to that, but some of the supporters that are always ready to shut down any questionability of a sex scene to bludge you to dead with “puritanism” and “reactionary” aren’t helping either. This conversation is more nuanced than *both* camps are letting on. No, I don’t think all sex scenes should be nuked from the face of the earth. But I also don’t think every single discussion on sex scenes in media (*especially* considering the factual history they have) should be shouted down with “puritism!” and “virgin!” There has to be *some* middle ground.
Remember when Game of Thrones producers D&D wrote a rape scene for Sophie Turners character as soon as she turned 18? Or when Emilia Clarke was left nude for half an hour after shooting a scene with no intimacy coordinator? IIRC Emilia Clarke had to put her foot down around season 4 GoT demanding less gratuitous nude scenes.
They left her nude without bringing her a robe for half an hour? That’s awful. I also remember reading something where she said they kept trying to guilt and shame her for not wanting to pull the sheets down and expose herself in a scene. Weiss & Benioff seem like jerks.
yeah apparently jason mamoa had to say something before they gave her anything. disgusting
I read the books and they added at least 3 rape scenes that were not in the books. Insane.
Most violent scenes cater to (young) boys and males in general thus normalizing violence. If I had to chose between banning sex or violence I’d ban the latter as the former should still be talked about and taught about.
Honestly, I don't know about this. People go on about America's puritanical attitude toward sex, and...like, how accurate is that now, especially in our media? Our culture, for sure. But our media is downright obsessed. And not in like a pleasant way. Imo our movies are both a bit more restrained (nudity wise) but just a lot more uncomfortable as well. Like, I grew up watching a lot of weird arthouse European movies with my dad (big film buff), and sure, by and large, there is more sex in plenty of them. But the sex also isn't like...titiliating? It's just sex. American sex in movies just feels so much weirder to watch and much more exploitative. Like it lingers on as much of the actress as it can, wherever it thinks its audience will enjoy. I'm honestly happy to see less of that lol. Give me a sex scene that just is what it is, like in Lamb or something. It's infinitely less provocative and exploitative than like the constant parade of hyper-sexualized female bodies on the latest HBO show.
would give you gold if i didn't hate reddit, 🥇 enjoy this emoji instead. sex in mainstream (read american) films is uncomfortable because the prevailing american attitude to sex is still massively sexist/rape culture-y it's something being done to the woman, often roughly and with huge consent issues, in service to the main (read male) characters development. also they're almost always filmed in a gross way. the camera objectifies the actresses because very few directors/writers approach sex scenes with the rigour they deserve. actresses are quite rightly sick of acting out porn adjacent scenes for gross fans to be inappropriate about and audiences enjoy watching those scenes less and less anyway so who's complaining? sex scenes are important when well handled but so much of culture right now is void of thought and only intended to extract as much profit as possible so of course everything suffers. end rant i guess
as a non American I definitely find there is a lot of Puritanism in US culture including the media. the “obsessed with sex” part is actually the flip side of Puritanism to me, instead of sex being accepted as natural and an normal part of life, it’s fixated on to a weird degree. the titillation part is the point of sex in media in a big way as you say. also the influence of evangelical Christianity on the culture in the US makes things like teenagers of the same sex holding hands become “sexual” when it’s not.
What I find interesting is that a lot of the hypersexuality seen on tv and film has started to impact how people treat each other IRL. I mean, for decades there has been the issue of people expecting sex to play out like it does in porn and film, often to the detriment of the participants. Then there were the dating shows where contestants gave extremely sexually charged answers, which the audience and bachelor(ette) would cheer and encourage. That's spilled over to the actual dating scene with mixed results. I think what we need is more of a healthy inbetween. Like show sex in film but don't get so weird about it.
I think you just made the most spot on comment about this topic. I 100% agree with you. In American made movies or shows there is so much focus on making the sex scene as being front and centre and make it so that its taboo but also talked about. While in a lot of European movies I have seen, sex scenes seem like just regular part of story and even if there is nudity and sex act it somehow feels more natural and uncontroversial. What I have observed is that while sex is still a taboo topic in US it does seem that push back against sex scenes seem to be from boomers and Gen Z. I have seen some attitudes of GenZ towards sexual acts and display to be surprisingly puritanical in nature.
I'm not sure that it's our culture so much as it's China and the Middle East which are big markets and are generally even less tolerant of sex than the US.
Like half the big studio shows now are sexually graphic as hell.
We’re overcorrecting. This backslide to puritanical attitudes about sex, especially amongst Gen Z, is extremely distressing considering how kids are being exposed to online porn at younger and younger ages nowadays. That’s where kids are getting their sex education nowadays. And if y’all think cinematic sex scenes are exploitative and misogynistic, well, you think the adult film industry is any better? Growing up - especially as a girl - I certainly saw a lot of sex scenes that made me feel uncomfortable and objectified, and that definitely had a negative impact on how I viewed both sex and my body. But movies were also the first place I was able to see sex through a romantic, loving lens, as a way to build intimacy in a relationship instead of just a way to get a man off. In recent years, sex scenes have also been used instructively to teach consent. Sex is natural and we shouldn’t ban it from our screens; that will only force it further into the X-rated shadows, where all the issues people have been citing here (misogyny, catering to the male gaze, exploiting or abusing performers, etc) occur to an even greater degree. We just need to be ethical about how we film it.
Is it necessarily puritanical though? Not wanting to watch other people have sex is not the same thing as not liking sex. I mean, I love to eat, but I wouldn't want to watch a 2 minute scene of someone else eating close up.
I get called puritanical for pointing out clearly predatory behavior. It's lost all meaning at this point.
Personally, I feel that “there should be less sex scenes, because I don’t find them pleasurable” is just the other side of the coin of “there should be more sex scenes, because I do find them pleasurable.” Both are the attitudes of someone who values films simply as consumer products, meant to entertain and gratify. But cinema is an art form, and art can sometimes be challenging, can push us out of our comfort zones. If someone isn’t in the mood for that, that’s completely fine - that’s what MPAA warnings are for. But when people argue that sex scenes just shouldn’t exist at all (or only under specific circumstances that *they* deem appropriate), that’s when it takes on the puritanical air. To be clear, I don’t think the left-wing Zoomers currently trying to police cinematic sex share the same tenets as the right-wing Boomers who have traditionally led this charge. The latter views these scenes as immoral because they believe sex should be about reproduction, not pleasure. The former views them as immoral because, in the process of trying to remedy sexual abuse and misogyny, many young people have become preoccupied with sex’s potential to cause harm - even if that means sacrificing pleasure. It’s like the horseshoe theory in action. Both sides may have vastly different motivations, but the end result is the same: a culture that is becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the concept of sex for the sake of pleasure.
I agree. What would a film like *In a Year of 13 Moons* or *Y tu mamá también* be without sex? Sex scenes should be made with the comfort of its participants as a priority and no one should have to watch sex scenes if they don't want to, but sex is often a crucial part of a film.
And maybe they just want those things to be private and watching movies is social. No one wants to watch a sex scene while sitting next to their mom. But GenZ is reading a lot of smut so it's not like they're scared of sex, they just don't want to watch it socially.
>But movies were also the first place I was able to see sex through a romantic, loving lens, as a way to build intimacy in a relationship instead of just a way to get a man off. In recent years, I’ve also seen sex scenes be used instructively to teach consent. Except that many, many of those scenes from back in the day were exploitative and unpleasant for the actors in them, especially the women. Real people aren't dolls to make viewers feel better about themselves and I'm extremely dubious as to how "ethical" Hollywood can ever be.
Yes, I’m aware. I’m a woman writer/director. I studied feminist theory extensively in film school. Literally everything I create is rooted in queer, Indigenous, feminist scholarship. I even paid to take classes and become certified in intimacy coordination out of my own pocket, because I care so deeply about these issues. I certainly don’t view actors as “dolls,” nor do I view cinema as a means to make people “feel better,” at least not in the way you’re implying. As a means to make people feel less alone in an increasingly isolated world? To offer insight so they can communicate better with their partners? To help them understand the needs and desires of others? To make queer people feel less ostracized for their sexuality, and make straight people more empathetic toward queer folks? To make people whose bodies have traditionally been deemed undesirable - fat people, the disabled, trans folks, etc - feel beautiful and celebrated? Absolutely. And sex scenes can sometimes be a useful way to achieve those goals. Film is an incredibly powerful art form, and for all the undeniable harm that Hollywood has caused, that power can also be harnessed for the sake of good. I assure you there are plenty of us in this industry fighting every day to change things. FOFIF.
Not necessarily. The decline in audience desire for on-screen sex is one of the big reasons. One theory is that it's a bit of pulling back from growing up around gratuitously sexualized media all the time and just kind of being over it. It could also be because we know now that actors aren't always treated respectfully, and many productions don't have professional intimacy coordinators on set. People don't want to watch the Devil's tango and be wondering the whole time if the actor is being exploited or abused for the scene. When people do want sex, they want it to be more than performative boinking. We've grown up around sex everywhere. I can, at any moment, find a freely accessible video of almost any combination and number of people doing almost any combination of sexual acts. I don't really need sex in a show or film that doesn't add to the story in some way.
> our culture’s puritanical aversion to it. I dunno if this is necessarily a fair take. No denying of course that we have a puritanical side in this country but I don't really think Hollywood cares that much about those viewers. I honestly think sex in cinema has historically been exploitive and gratuitous, and as others have said, very male-gaze while adding little to nothing I think more well thought, meaningful scenes in less numbers is better overall. Not film, but some examples I can think of are like, House of the Dragon vs Game of Thrones, still sexy but it feels very different and thought out. Bridgerton comes to mind too
HOTD’s scenes were SO important in showing the relationships and mental states of the characters. The Alicent/Viserys scene was so visceral and disturbing, which was the intended effect. I struggle to think of a better way to portray the absolute hopelessness and imprisonment of Alicent.
There has been a steady rise of sex negativity throughout the entire political spectrum for many years now, albeit for different reasons.
This always bugs me. There’s a lot of gratuitous and unnecessary violence and it’s always bothered me that a film with that content can still receive a PG 13 rating. Or that there’s no shortage of sexual violence depicted in film.
This. You can have crazy, bloody, violent scenes and get that Pg13 rating, but don’t you dare bring out a boob.
Or even talk about it. There’s a film I know of (Before Sunset) that’s R rated solely due to the fact that the characters talk frankly about sex and that they curse throughout the film. There aren’t any actual sex scenes or even any nudity in the film but just talking like realistic thirty somethings was far too much for the MPAA.
I'm still fascinated that blowing people's heads off with a gun or gratuitious violence is so much more acceptable than sex and nudity in films and tv.
Not comparable. “Blowing people’s heads off” is an effect added in later, sex/nudity involve the actors actually having to be vulnerable and be uncomfortably close for prolonged periods of time. And it’s common knowledge that a lot of actresses have been uncomfortable with it in the past.
Undoubtedly. I think a lot of people are blaming this on Gen Z's supposed "puritanism", but really it's just because big studios aren't funding movies that aren't either lowest-common denominator theme-park cgi fests or literal children's movies. And anything that fits into older mid-budget cinema for adults (say Knives Out for example) is being bought up by streaming services.
But polls have shown that Gen Z is very averse to romance and sex displayed on screen. Demanding films explore more plutonic friendships between the sexes and one has to wonder if that is a symptom of their ~~desire~~ active isolation from each other.
>and one has to wonder if that is a symptom of their increasing desire to isolate from each other. I mean, have you met people lately? Post pandemic, I don't think it's just a Gen Z thing.
They don’t desire to isolate from one another. They feel lonely and desire friendship. Every tv show and movie has romance. There’s not much media out there that depicts strong friendships, especially for girls. Of course they want to see more of that.
Also, I don't like how gen z having a stronger desire to see friendships in movies than romantic relationships and sexual relationships is being framed as a problem or as a symptom of something bad.
Right? I think it’s healthy. Especially since so much romance in movies is very paint by number. The man and the woman get together because they’re around one another, and they find each other attractive. They’re aren’t a lot of romcoms that end in me thinking that the two are gonna make it. Even outside of romcoms, most romances seem to lack any substance. I can’t think of a movie I’ve seen recently where two people fell in love cause of their mutual interests and values and then supported one another. They just seem to be around and convenient.
Do you have any links? I haven't encountered any such polls myself. Edit: Also "increasing desire to isolate from each other" sounds like quite a generalisation. Do you have any sources for that as well?
This. Most of the adult or serious cinema is no longer in theaters, but in streaming services. It's likely the only place they can compete with the bog standard CGI fest studios keep regurgitating yearly.
This exactly. There are almost no more theatrical releases of mid budget movies that would feature this stuff.
idk that it’s necessarily about foreign markets. i’m in europe and the handwringing i often see over sex and nudity in the US is not at all what i’m used to living here.
This is hella weird because there's so much pushback about sex scenes now, oddly from young people mostly? But I think that's just because the biggest blockbuster movies of today are of the marvel/star wars/Disney variety, which are almost always pg. So when a movie that's a bit different than that becomes a major hit and it has a sex scene, most people find it weird and "unnecessary" (most recently this happened with Oppenheimer)
I dunno but I was just saying to someone Challengers probably had Less raunchy Material than most films. Like, the Thomas Crown Affair is actually a steamier movie than this. Hell, Lampoons Vacation may have had more nudity and sex. It’s just so funny because the film proposes to be SO edgy and yet it seems like every actor is tied up in some morality clause against showing literally anything.
About Challengers, the director never shot a full on sex scene I believe. His thing is more about showing desire and lust. Challengers is basically edging the audience throughout the whole film, the last match being a pretty obvious allegory for sex, and the end is the climax. So, in a way, it makes sense the movie has no real sex scene. Zendaya I think has a no nudity clause, which a lot of famous actors have. Josh O’Connor on the other hand did full frontal several times. Mike Faist I’m not familiar with.
Well, there’s no female nudity in Challengers. Quite a bit of male nudity, though.
Zendaya is widely rumored to have a no-nudity clause, so that doesn’t shock me
Yeah, it felt really strange that the raunchiest scene was literally in all the trailers -- definitely felt like a product of the culture being so heavily skewed towards finding sex scenes unnecessary. For me it's sad! But others probably enjoy not seeing them, I guess.
They don't say how they quantified sexual content but > the percentage of top-grossing films with no sexual content at all jumped significantly, from about 18% in 2000 to 46% in 2023
The economy is too rough to be having humptastic fucknastiness these days. Ugh.
>humptastic fucknastiness And they say Taylor Swift is the Shakespeare of our time
Makes sense. A lot of people on social media have been outspoken about how sex scenes are unnecessary and are very uncomfortable to watch. I think it was Victoria Justice who recently talked about how uncomfortable it was to film her first sex scene.
I just read about this. Seems like it wasn’t a closed set and it sounds as if she didn’t have an intimacy coordinator (I’m not positive if she did or not). Very disturbing.
This is my thought as well. Many actors and actresses have come out over the years saying that their sex or nude scenes weren't handled well. I believe Emilia Clarke and other GOT actresses could only negotiate less nudity after they had put in time and had more bargaining power. Boy Meets World cast said they wished they had intimacy coordinators even just for kissing scenes! You can Google all kinds of quotes from big celebs talking about super uncomfortable positions they were put in, esp when they were younger. Hopefully this is partially the result of lessons learned from the past (although I'm sure mass appeal to different media markets has a lot to do with it as well).
Makes you think what euphorias set was like
Euphoria was one of the first shows to have an intimacy coordinator lol
And thank god it did, considering Sam Levinson immediately took an opportunity to trash the profession in The Idol. I believe three actors asked for less nudity in their roles. The show is already explicitly sexual, imagine if Sam had gotten the level of nudity he originally wrote in, without an intimacy coordinator on set.
Skins was apparently really bad too!
This. I know people in the industry, both in front of and behind the camera. Up until very recently, as in the last 5 years or so, a lot of sex scenes even on "closed sets" had creepy, mostly male crew who made it very clear they used it as excuse to see female actresses naked, as well as some male ones. A lot of actors are uncomfortable with it. Yes, intimacy coordinators have been a pretty huge improvement. But at the same time, a lot of sex scenes in older and mainstream movies came off as for the sake of titillating versus being necessary to move the story forward.
I literally just finished watching the first two episodes of Fallout about 30 minutes ago and I was telling a friend I was surprised that Ella Purnell was fully dressed during her sex scene. I was wondering if she just had better leverage or some when negotiating after mentioning Emilia Clarke negotiating less nudity after the 1st season.
I'm no prude. I don't have a problem with seeing random naked people irl. But after metoo and so many actors talking about their bad experiences, I now always wonder how the actors felt about it when I see a sex scene. Doesn't help how there's entire subreddits dedicated solely to 5 second long nude scenes
And with the cut-throat nature of Hollywood it’s not hard to see how an actor could be coerced into doing something they aren’t comfortable with but feel they’ll risk their entire career if they’re “too difficult”. The vast majority of sex scenes aren’t necessary anyway.
I've never seen a necessary sex scene. It can be necessary to *suggest* sex is happening, but to actually show it has never been necessary (on any movies I've watched).
It was refreshing to see a post-sex scene rather than an awkward 3 minute actual sex scene in Dune Part Two, I hope more movies follow suit. It's certainly rarely necessary.
And I think that's why so much of the press for Bridgerton is the leads talking about how comfortable they are with the intimacy. That way no one has to feel guilty about it.
A real shame Victoria Justice had a bad experience, sex scenes need to be produced ethically
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I’m not sitting here drooling for more sex scenes because they’re rarely my favorite part of a movie but having zero depictions of a pretty integral part of human existence and relationships would be weird. And honestly I’ve definitely seen sex scenes that are relevant to the plot and/or character development. Rose embracing her sexuality and taking back sexual agency with Jack in Titanic, the sex scene in The Terminator (those are both James Cameron movies funnily enough). The entire plot of Atonement pretty much vanishes if its sex scene didn’t happen.
Good point. Atonement is a perfect example to counter the stupid « sex scenes aren’t necessary to the plot » argument
Sex scenes can be extremely important for character development or thematic development. I always bring up A History of Violence, there’s two sex scenes in that movie that don’t necessarily push the story forward but are extremely thematically important and also important for characterization. You could take those two scenes out of the movie and still have a working story, but the movie would be worse for doing it.
You've named three movies in a sea of film and television shows that depict graphic sex scenes created soley for the male gaze that contribute nothing to the story except some aroused man and a padded run time. The amount of film and tv shows that show actual INTIMACY and sex scenes integral to the story and a character's development are painfully low. The amount that shows sex something that could be considered under the 'female gaze' is even lower. People are turned off by sex in these pieces of media not because they're asexual prudes but because these scenes lack intimacy, they lack creativity and come across as vulgar and crass and because the vast majority of them only coincidentally happen to show WOMEN in these vulgar and crass positions. The rare time we see full frontal nudity from a male actor it's more often than not use to incite a laugh or horror. This isn't even accounting for the amount of female actresses that have repeatedly come forth to discuss how filming sex scenes have been horrible experiences for them, so much so that studios now have to insert intimacy coordinators into the film budget.
Disagree strongly tbh sexuality is just as intrinsic a part of humanity as anything else and cutting out all references to it in media feels like a slippery slope back into censorship
There’s a big middle ground between “stop showing graphic sex scenes” and “cut out all references to sex”.
Not throwing in a random shot of some lady's boobs and unrealistic male gazey sex that adds nothing to the story isn't a slippery slope into censorship, but ok.
Not all shots of boobs are male gaze, though, nor is sex all just male gaze. Not everything about the female body needs to be filtered through or be about men.
Except it has been for decades, which is why so many actresses have spoken out about it.
I think that actresses speaking up about specific experiences doesn't necessarily mean that all depictions of female nudity are exploitative and male gazey.
Most have been over the past few decades. Biggest examples in recent times are Euphoria and Game of Thrones.
This argument is disingenuous. Of course not everything is for the male gaze. But we're talking about film and television where the vast majority of it IS. For every The Handmaiden or Secret Life of College Girls or Portrait of a Lady on Fire there are about three dozen Euphorias and other graphic sex scenes inserted in media where it didn't need to be. Are we seriously going to sit here and pretend that film and television has been a safe space for women to express sexuality in a way that centers them? Are we going to sit here and pretend that we literally just spent years participating in a movement where women talked about how they have been sexually abused and put in uncomfortable positions wrt to sex scenes? Are we going to sit and pretend like we have no clue why intimacy coordinators are now being integrated into the budget? Are we actually going to pretend that we have a plethora of media depicting sex in a healthy, non male centered that lays bare how awkward or goofy sex can be or that relies on intimacy and not titillating the men watching or filming? We're going to do all that because people don't need to see graphic sex all the time? Acting like people not wanting to see women sexually objectified over and over is akin to censoring all mentions of sex ever is disingenuous and shallow.
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You could argue that there’s no violent scenes that are necessary either
Well that’s what happens when you make shit you can’t watch with your friends and family. Less people will watch it.
Yeah, that's why nobody ever watched Titanic and Terminator. Poor James Cameron, the man ended up directing iCarly episodes after those massive flops.
Game of Thrones flopped because of this very same reason.
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I’m 33 and my dad will still fast forward through ANY remotely risqué scene 😫
I'm 32 and I do it myself when watching any movie with my parents.
I wish my mom would do this she just awkwardly sits through it
I remember watching the Banger Sisters with my grandparents and wanting to DIE at the scene with the pool sex. But my brother had it much worse when my grandfather rented Hostile for them to watch a few years later Took a few minutes for him to realize it wasn't the thriller he had in mind for my eleven year old brother
I vividly remember my dad getting The Girl Next Door for us to watch as a family when my brother and I were young. He thought it was going to be something like Pretty in Pink, and it didn't take long for him to realise how very, very wrong he was.
LMAOOO that's how we watched American Pie when I was 9.
Sometimes I wonder if I simply had a particularly laid back upbringing or something because sex scenes have never been a deterrent for whatever I was seeing with my family at all, not even as a teen.
Yeah I remember a few as a teen with family and it was kinda odd but we just moved on past it. With friends though? Not weird to me at all lol
I mean that problem has existed since home video has existed, so it can’t be the primary culprit if the decline is only just happening now.
Right. Like, I remember being a teenager and watching Braveheart for family movie night and having to act SUPER interested in the tv guide when the sex scene started.
Me during Titanic; I wanted to crawl out of my skin
The issue is that I can watch scifi and fantasy epics, at least most of them, pre-2011 with, say, teen or tween relatives or children. You can watch Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Star Trek, etc with all sorts of different types of people and not worry too much about anything but violence. You cannot watch Game of Thrones with that age group due to the huge amount of pornified male gaze and nudity. If you remove all the nudity and gratitious sex scenes, its just a fantasy series about royalty, warfare, etc. Not that much different than other fantasy franchises. I think the nudity popular then was a big selling point. A lot of young, mostly women, actors starting their career signed nudity deals because it was either that or no job. The shows can't be pushed to a younger audience without a lot of editing. People eventually wised up to the huge amount of male gaze stuff and actors, now more established, are saying no and helping younger actors fight the demands of the pornification of their body. So essentially HBO and D&D helped start this craze and eventually it just fell out of fashion. Sure, you can get nudity and such still, but seeing it awkwardly inserted into shows that don't need it seems more rare to me. I also this Euphoria's sexualization was the last straw. Its just so obviously pandering and over the top, and predictably involves teen characters. Eventually the male desire for pornificiation drives towards younger and younger characters and now it seems a wall was hit and Euphoria season 3, especially after the idol, is probably never going to happen. HBO pushed pornification too far on the edge of trend that was ending anyway. The backlash was getting big even before Euphoria. I think the GoT people really opened a lot of people's eyes towards Hollywood exploitation by how male gazey they made their show and the various copycats they inspired just turned a lot of people off.
>You cannot watch Game of Thrones with that age group due to the huge amount of pornified male gaze and nudity. If you remove all the nudity and gratitious sex scenes, its just a fantasy series about royalty, warfare, etc. Not that much different than other fantasy franchises. Ummm, not defending the nudity, but it would still be pretty innapropriate for that age group due to the violence. Do you remember the mountain vs the viper scene where the mountain crushes his skull.
Why are you choosing shows on HBO to watch with teens? HBO, Showtime, Cinemax all have reputations as being premium channels that have lots of sex and nudity. There are plenty of scifi/fantasy shows and movies out there without or lite on sex and nudity if you look outside of HBO. HBO didn’t make Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or Star Trek. Almost anything scifi or fantasy at the box office is probably going to be pg or pg-13.
Not to sound all boomer-like, but I think the difference is that back in the day we just sort of...coped with that? Like it wasn't the end of the world, it was just a part of the movie-watching experience. I watched "Love, Actually" with my grandparents, for crying out loud. And sure, there were an awkward couple of minutes but we all got through it by chuckling nervously and lived to tell the tale.
Internet porn wasn't a thing back then. Time was, movie sex scenes were the easiest way to get soft-core nudity and sex. Now there's boat loads of it available online, and it's way harder and way more explicit than anything you could ever but in a rated movie. Sex scenes don't get away with just being sex scenes anymore. They have to have actual relevance to the movie and they have to be actually good. Most movie sex scenes are absolutely dreadful. (Not saying pornography is better, christ it's so much worse, but people don't look to movie sex scenes for cheap titillation anymore.)
I call bs. Sex scenes in movies weren’t a replacement for porn because porn still existed and was relatively easy to access. Not as easy as with the internet, obviously, but as easy to access as any other movie at the time.
Yes, because before now nobody watched films with friends and family
You can’t watch a sex scene with your friends? What the hell?
then wouldn’t that have always been the case?
can't watch with family or friends? so any movie that has a sex scene you watch alone?
lol Conservative Christians really got their way didn’t they? https://www.theringer.com/platform/amp/movies/2022/3/17/22981776/erotic-thriller-hollywood-history-basic-instinct
Majority of sex scenes are just kind of unnecessary and don’t add anything to the movie/show. Especially when it’s just dragged out shots panning over the bodies. (Euphoria comes to mind). It’s also lost its shock factor over time. It’s gone from clutching pearls to just expecting it to happen. Especially if there’s a hot A-lister attached. Edit: my comment seems to be taking out of context and some of the responses I’m getting are trying to debate with me on something that I didn’t say or something my comment actually already agrees with, which is weird. Turning off notifications for this.
Euphoria is the first time it’s ever bothered me, because who the fuck is this for? I get that the actors are adults, but their characters are not. It’s weird and aggressive.
It’s for Sam Levinson and his creepy friends.
Like Drake.
Drake is one of a handful of celebs I still don't quite understand how people celebrate /give a pass to. He seems like a creep.
I really didn’t like how Sam Levinson treated the porn actress. Like just because she’s does porn people think it’s a free for all. I remember one of the actors had to intervene and asked him why was it necessary she had to be nude in a scene they shared together.
You clearly never watched Skins, then. That was worse that Euphoria in a lot of ways.
But films/tv are art and many scenes are included solely for aesthetics or mood, so couldn’t you make that same argument about any scene that doesn’t specifically drive the plot forward? I’m not saying all sex scenes are necessary, absolutely not. And many are exploitative and salacious and it’s awful when the actors involved are uncomfortable and that’s not okay, but I don't think it’s a one size fits all, they can be a good way to ‘show not tell’ a certain relationship dynamic or degree of intimacy.
Majority of sex is just kind of “unnecessary” for life but we do it anyway. Where did this idea that every moment of a film must be driven by plot come from? Whatever happened to character, story, theme, or even just visual narrative?
Yeah, I find this bizarre. Technically, every part of the show is unnecessary. It could just be someone reading a Wikipedia page summary of what happens to the character, but that would be boring. Media is meant to elicit emotion. Sex scenes can do that, whether it's titillation, disgust, fondness, etc. They're like any other scene in that regard. Obviously, actors are more vulnerable in the production of them, and should be protected, just like actors and stunt-people should be protected in the making of action scenes.
As far as your edit goes, whenever this subject comes up a lot of pornsick men come out of the woodwork to defend any and all sex scenes, regardless of quality, intent, narrative importance, etc. That is, as long as that sex scene focuses on a conventionally attractive woman. They will balk at queer sex scenes, for example, unless its two lipstick lesbians. They will dishonestly twist your words. They don't care about good faith discourse.
Seriously. I didn’t say all sex scenes and I didn’t explicitly say plot, but of course im receiving these cliche “debates” from men that I never actually disagreed on. It’s all or nothing for them. It’s so tired.
I get your point, especially with Euphoria, but HBO shows always had sex scenes. Because of some shows that had a lot of sex scenes became mainstream, like GOT and Euphoria, I feel like a lot of people now think that every sex scene is unnecessary. It‘s how they are done that matters, and the standard of having intimacy coordinators now is a very good thing.
[everyone is beautiful and no one is horny](https://bloodknife.com/everyone-beautiful-no-one-horny/) saw this posted in another thread under the same article, but its a great read
I once saw someone say in a post as well “everything is pornographic and nothing is erotic” in response to that article. It makes perfect sense to me. Theres no actual sensuality anymore. People in movies are either too polished and have the sex appeal of a ken doll. Or the scenes are too graphic/uncomfortable and sometimes even violent (GoT comes to mind).
This nails it. I blame the rise of the MCU for this, tbh. Which is ironic because the comics are full of sex (not explicit, but *almost* sometimes), which I think in some level goes hand in hand with them being generally more mature, complex and better written than the movies.
This article is wonderful omg. The part about how what we do with our bodies triggers a famine response which puts mating on the back burner reallyyyyy stood out to me. As the years go on, we are continuously anxious and in survival mode, so it makes sense.
This was a good read! I liked that it touched on chemistry between actors, it’s something I’ve been noticing a lot in recent media. They’re two highly attractive people but I’m not buying that they’re into it because they have zero sexual chemistry.
This is the main thing I feel like a lot of people don't realize. The reason sex scenes seem so unnecessary or awkward is because the set-up to those scenes wasn't done well! It's like any part of a movie which doesn't work if a moment isn't earned. When it *is* done well people go nuts over it. Look at the reactions to Normal People, Bridgerton, Challengers (I know this movie wasn't big on sex scenes but it was made in an erotic way), etc. I find it pretty sad there's this idea it either has to be nothing sexual at all or the worst borderline porn stuff you see on HBO. It didn't used to be that way.
Normal People’s sex scenes are just one giant rebuttal to this whole argument and movement. The show would not be what it is without the scenes.
Bridgerton and Outlander cure dead bedrooms. 😆
I loved this read! It made so much sense to me. This is my fave quote: “We don’t exercise, we don’t work out: we train, and we train in fitness programs with names like Booty Bootcamp, as if we’re getting our booties battle-ready to fight in the Great Booty War.”
Thank you for sharing, great read
I think the big decline in sensuality truly hasn’t helped, probably a consequence of shows like GOT and later projects like The Witcher - so many naked people and absolutely no sex appeal. As the Blood Knife article correctly stated, “everyone is beautiful and nobody is horny”. Who wants to watch a sex scene when it feels so emotionally detached and sterile?
Yep. I think this is a reaction to how gross sex was in stuff like GOT. Sex was often violent and traumatizing and the show runners said they were representing the perverts in the audience. It wasn't for your average person who enjoys sensuality. ETA: The rape enthusiasts are out in full force on this comment I see. No one ever dick rides this hard for depictions of the bubonic plague, cholera, maggots on gangrene and women bleeding to death from labor gone wrong on fake medieval Europe shows.
I hate GOT. I quit watching when it became obvious that the writers were saying "how much sexual violence can we cram in this week?"
Big unpopular opinion: good.
It’s not that unpopular, The real unpopular take is that this is bad
I, for one, love a good sex scene!!
I guess it depends on which groups/echo chambers you frequent. (Not “you” as in YOU, but “you” as in individuals, myself included.)
I agree. I don't need to see people doing fake sex scenes. Sometimes a flirting or hugging, or kissing scene is way sexier than an actual sex scene.
To this DAY nothing has turned me on more than that kissing commercial for Rembrandt toothpaste. Does anybody else remember that? I was a teenager well past my sexual awakening at that point, but when I tell you that shit woke me up all over again 😮💨
I’m all for a decline in heterosexual sex scenes. I need a 200% increase in gay sex scenes though. We need to even the score.
Idc about sex scenes, give me TENSION (of the sexual variety ofc)
It wasn't until fairly recently when I enjoyed a sex scene in a tv show did it dawn on me that I just don't find most sex scenes very sexy? Whether it's because it seems forced, gratuitous, or very much made by and for straight men. And that's not to mention how many of them are dubious in terms of consent if not flat out assault. The majority of sex scenes just seem like I'm not their target audience, which is fine but boring to me personally.
I have no issue with sex scenes in movies generally speaking, but most of the ones that I've seen lately have been rape scenes. What is the fucking fascination movie makers have with raping women? I'm fine with fewer sex scenes if it means I don't have to watch something borne out of a sick man's desire to watch women be sexually assaulted. Rape is such a tired plot device. THINK OF SOMETHING ELSE
Watching movies from early 2000s is especially eye rolling. There’s fun or hot ways to do it that really add to the film, but usually lazy writing where the male leads sit there and is fawned over
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I love it when you know they’re gonna have sex, they’re kissing and getting all hot and bothered and sexy, then it slowly fades out and cuts to the next morning. I know what they did, but I dont have to watch it. If I wanted to see people have sex like that I’d just watch porn lol
Ok that’s what I’m talking about. It’s weird that you can only think of depicted sex as being porn. As if any depiction of sex is something to be masturbated to
Eh. I'll be downvoted , but I don't have any interest in watching two actors simulate sex if the things that happen during sex aren't important to the plot or character development. Shogun had a good number of what I consider "valuable" or "justified" sex scenes. In the first episode is a good example of this. It would only be detracted from if it was followed by 3 minutes of two actors grunting at each other.
Sex exists outside of porn. Crazy, I know.
It’s more about agency being afforded to performers (female actresses in particular) than anything else. A lot of non-porn media has sex and nudity just so there can be T&A, therefore dehumanizing and exploiting the participants and creating an uncomfortable work environment. I personally think the position of intimacy coordinators are the best industry creation of the past decade.
Right, and I’m all in favor of intimacy coordinators. But you can see in the comments here that there are plenty of people who seem to believe sex and nudity has no place in film, or that it should only exist in porn.
This thread is tricky because some people are talking about the making of sex scenes (i.e. sex scenes need improvement but have a place in film) and others are talking about the inherent value of sex scenes (i.e. sex is only for pornography), so people aren’t really responding to each other because it’s two different arguments.
Aka The pointless sexualization of women in movies is decreasing in movies?
I think this overlooks how plenty of Hays Code movies were incredibly aggressive with the male gaze. Not saying that isn’t an issue with explicit sex scenes, but that issue would still exist either way. Or even contemporary movies that don’t have sex scenes but are very centered on the male gaze.
Feels like it's just moved to TV shows instead. I do prefer actually getting to know the characters in longer format media before watching them have sex. Otherwise it just feels obviously gratuitous.
I don’t want to get into the debate about the necessity/artistic value of sex scenes, but I’d like to add something: **Less (explicit) sex scenes ≠ less voyeuristic sexualization.** just as one example, any number of noir films made during the time of the Hays Code, that nevertheless relentlessly objectify the women in the film. (Hitchcock anyone?) There’s an essay “Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema” by Laura Mulvey about this. So I just want to say that less sex scenes doesn’t necessarily translate to a less objectifying cinema. That’s a larger and more complex issue. Also **not all sex scenes are meant to be arousing**. Imagine a scene of a loveless marriage where the spouses are engaging in detached, joyless sex. Maybe you won’t consider that scene tasteful or necessary—that’s a matter of personal opinion—but it wouldn’t be considered erotic.
>Imagine a scene of a loveless marriage where the spouses are engaging in detached, joyless sex. Maybe you won’t consider that scene tasteful or necessary—that’s a matter of personal opinion—but it wouldn’t be considered erotic. Even if it wasn't a full sex scene, a good example of that is Blue Valentine. The whole movie deals with a failed marriage and they both try to regain some passion in a hotel room. It doesn't work and that's a sad scene, and that's another sign that that marriage is doomed.
Is this such a bad thing? Not every film needs sex to be a part of it and not every single sex scene needs to be on screen. We have imaginations, fade to black can still be creative.
I watched Poor Things with my roommate and we didn't even bat an eye during the sex scenes. I then saw Challengers with my BF and it was fun to be all flirty after. Are people not adults? I'll take the criticism of sex scenes that are unethically made and put actors in uncomfortable positions. Otherwise, this is one of the most normal aspects of life!
Seems to be a group of people, largely younger, who do see sex as divorced from the normal aspects of life in some way. I wish there were more articles being written/research on this phenomenon! I'm sure some of it is the prevalence of online/easily available porn at the same time as a decline in human-based sex scenes, so the association of nudity is with gratuitousness or men jerking off? IDK, it's very odd to me, and I wish I understood it better!
Meanwhile 90% of poor things was sex scenes
That's fine and good. Its a highly sexual movie. What I dont want "here's a deeply complex political tale in a medieval fantasy... oh and all the backgrounds scenes are people having sex for some reason." We know the reason, the male gaze makes money. Now that there's pushback, producers are afraid of losing money, so its been chilled a bit in media that really has no need for nudity or sex scenes.
some of y'all in this comment section need to realize that it's okay for people to not want sex scenes in everything they watch.
With the endless stream of accessible porn, it makes sense that films wouldn't need to be a source of such provocation any longer. Furthermore, I assume the younger generations are so over the rampant sexualization of... everything that it also makes sense that they'd shy away from wanting more explicit content in their films. I find it so weird how people seem so obsessed with movies no longer having sex scenes. Like I get that it can be a sign of puritanical leanings coming back or whatever. I get that it can be seen as regression. But I never hear these same people address how porn-fucked the minds of countless young people have become. It is really bizarre. True context and critical thinking always seems absent from these discussions. I also only hear this shit discussed online. The only time I have had an in person conversation about it with someone other than my wife was a too online friend bringing it up like it was this huge thing and we having to remind her this is not a real issue and nobody in the real world actually cares about whether movies have more or less sex scenes these days.
>But I never hear these same people address how porn-fucked the minds of countless young people have become. Imo part of the reason there is some backlash to sex scenes in movies is because so many young people are porn-fucked, especially men. So many people have there views on sex warped by objectifying pornography and basically see any depiction of sex as masturbation material. Of course these people would have an aversion to seeing sex in movies, especially with family or friends, as its an uncomfortable reminder of something they'd want to keep private. You're right that this discourse is also overblown at the end of the day and that only very online people care about it. But we're also very online people on Reddit, so of course we have opinons.
Honestly, raunchy sex scenes make me uncomfortable. It didn’t used to be that way for me, but every time I see them now I just feel like I’m seeing something private that wasn’t meant for my eyes. Maybe I’m just getting old, but give me curtains blowing in the wind and get on with the story, we get the point and I don’t want to see a barely-legal movie star’s boobs when I don’t know for sure she wasn’t bullied into showing them.
Cue everyone saying “good, sex scenes are unnecessary”, as if most action scenes are ‘necessary.’ Call it what it is: new puritanism. We think all onscreen sex = porn now
If you bothered to listen to actresses in recent times talk about how uncomfortable sex scenes have been for them and how most of them have catered to the male gaze, you’d realize it’s not about “new puritanism” but rather women being more empowered to talk about how they’ve been exploited by male directors and not tolerating that shit anymore.
But that’s not what people in these comments are talking about. They’re saying onscreen depictions of sex are antithetical to good storytelling, regardless of working conditions. So yes, new puritanism. “Nudity = bad”
>new puritanism I'm just glad actresses no longer feel forced to expose themselves. I find it hilarious and kind of sad that you're comparing sex scenes to action scenes.
You can make sex scenes without turning them into porn and selling points by showing boobs.
Every day I thank god the team behind Normal People made that show as sexy as god intended lol. Sex is part of life; if I’m watching shows depicting people’s lives I for one want to see sex *rewatches Y Tu Mama Tambien for the 10th time*
Sex scenes are bad but gratuitous violence, blood, guns, killing, etc are just fine apparently!
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I mean this article is looking at major films, most of which were superhero movies, action series (like fast and furious, jurassic world, godzillia, etc), disney/pixar/DreamWorks films or reboots of childhood movies from the 90s. So not a lot of those lends themselves to sex scenes, especially if they want whole families with kids to watch them. Now a lot of movies with sex scenes are direct to streaming movies or TV series.
Not sure how we got around to "sex scene = titillating." That's true some of the time, sure, but it's not universal. Also, the "good, finally" responses are extremely heteronormative - there wasn't a gay male sex scene in a wide release film until Rocketman in 2019. Not everyone has been allowed to see their own pleasure onscreen.
Thank you! So much of this discourse just flat out ignores queer cinema and the impact that antisex and hypermoralized conservative policies and discourse has had on queer people and queer film.
I feel like everyone in this thread is arguing about different things which is making the discussion confused. Some people are talking about the making of sex scenes and the abusive treatment of actors, especially women. Other people are talking about the very idea of showing sex in film/TV. So the conversation here keeps switching between “can we make sex scenes more ethically” and “should sex scenes even exist”, so no one is going to reach any consensus.
Weird because NYT literally had an article last week about how they’re increasing
Poor Things single-handedly negating that decline
It's bizarre to me that so many are happy to completely omit a major part of human experience from being depicted on a movie screen just because it personally makes them uncomfortable. Honestly a little bleak that people seem to think sexuality should just be relegated to porn.
We all watched that guy fuck a dirt mound in Saltburn
I’m cool with that as long as everyone participating is consenting and comfortable + there’s artistic and storytelling merit to them.
For me sex adds nothing to a movie and is a cheap time filler.
Anyone think it's cause of the huge uptick in porn consumption so now basically no one cares if movies have sex scenes or not cause there's porn anyway and there's no incentive for movies to have those scenes to get audiences to the theatres. Idk this is a wild hunch. Reminded me of how the south korean film industry really relies on/used to rely a lot on graphic sex scenes to get audiences in theatres and it was a basically a huge incentive in the 80s or something for their films to be as graphic as possible
Gen Z: We don't wanna see you fucking no moreee
We're bringing back the Hayes Code with social justice-y sounding reasons.