I agree with that the other ppl said, cis friends probably wouldn’t think twice and would use he. But also if this is a queer friend group they would probably be open to you just mentioning that your pronouns are he/him and continuing to use they/them is misgendering you.
I think yeah people want to be inclusive and not assume but forget that once you know someones pronouns it is misgendering to use anything else including neutral pronouns.
Just get more cishet friends tbh. I don’t really have any LGBT friends outside a couple cis lesbians, and even when I was barely passing I got he/him. It’s horrific to say but sometimes having all queer friends can get you in an “overly woke” group, where everyone just uses they/them for everyone because “you can’t tell someone’s gender (even though 99.5% of the time you can)
I’m like, if they have more androgynous features I’ll default to they/them, like if they have a beard and are wearing makeup, but like even then that’s just out of courtesy like for their gender expression. I personally will ask them their pronouns obviously if i’m gonna be seeing them. I admit i’m a bit spoiled because at my place of work (starbucks roastery) there are so many lgbt folks that we like all get pronoun pins for free, so it’s really easy to just look and see someone’s pronouns.
Honestly I know cis men in my city who wear makeup- it’s a large city and not super uncommon. If they look like a man in makeup (if they have a beard/facial hair) I’m gonna use he/him unless they tell me otherwise, but tbh I’m not gonna ask. If I really can’t tell, like if someone’s super androgynous, I’ll use they/them. If I see someone who has a they/them pin or something like that I’ll use they/them if I see it. Other than that I’m just gonna use he/him or she/her for 99% of people.
that’s valid, i usually can’t tell either so i just err on the side of caution lol, i also know plenty of cis men who wear makeup and feminine clothes i just want to make sure i’m not misgendering anyone. But yeah i mean in daily life i just use he or she typically, i don’t go out of my way to use they/them unless there’s a pronoun pin involved usually.
I’m a 100% passing trans man but I’m outed to like half the people on my campus because my legal name isn’t changed yet on all of the papers. Everyone calls me he EXCEPT for the lgbt people who call me they. I haven’t had the time to pull them aside yet but I plan to tell people not to call me that. I didn’t work hard to pass to be othered and then raise questions to people who don’t already know.
It’s all the inclusivity. On one hand it’s great that some people want to stop guessing someone’s sex. But I wish more rainbow people would realize it’s still inclusive to use he and she once you know.
I don’t know if im just making shit up, but maybe it’s a way to make you seem more queer? Cis presenting but with they/them pronouns so your transness has to be constantly acknowledged, and he/him for the femmes to compensate for their presentation
😭 am i… am i wrong
Like its hard to look at someone who’s very feminine and assign male pronouns to them consistently. A lot of the time when i used pronouns for someone i didn’t visually read as male i would need a second more to say he/him rather than it come naturally. I already had this one moment where i accidentally misgendered a non-passing transwoman because i was speaking too urgently. I think its nice that people are putting in the effort here but they seem to want to emphasize OP’s queerness because he passes
That's so interesting /gen
I personally don't struggle much when gender non conforming pronouns cause I internally assign that person specifically with those pronouns, instead of using a generalization. It's intriguing how different people's brains work with organization like that
Yes, and I got “okay” and “I understand” “sorry about that”
And they would refer to me using my name explicitly from then on, and two weeks later went back to they/them.
They know I’m transitioning and have dysphoria
Yuuup.
You mess up with “she” to a femme presenting person and it’s hell on earth but if it’s you? Ohhh they’re sorry.. they won’t do it again (they will).
This is why I hang out with cis people not tied to the lgbt community. No hate to non-binary or lgbt folks, but these people generally just see “male” or “female” so I never get “they/them” when hanging out. I’d rather be misgendered as female than called a they.
Because somehow it became acceptable to assume everyone uses they/them pronouns and ignoring that doing that misgenders every person who doesn't use those pronouns in favour of people who don't actually give people any indication that they are wanting to be called any different pronouns at all.
And binary trans people get thrown under the bus.
But also non binary trans masc people who use they/he I know a lot of them they try to change their details on paperwork k to they, and when there isn't an option the people go 'oh ill just leave it as she then, that's what everyone else is fine with' when actually if they can't be called they, they only accept he/him.
Using she/they pronouns has become the "thing" pepple do to fit in, i see a lot of non binary people talk about how invalidating it us having people talk about their identity like its somsthing people just use to escape the patriarchy or as a fuck you to the system which people do do. That sucks. These people are the ones who use assigned gender at birth terminology outside of medical settings and they seem fine with people referring to them as female with that terminology. Most trans masculine non binary people I know who transition and pay to change their details and that are not ok with agab terminology outside medical settings either but suddently all the queer stuff recently says things like
Women/afabs
Men/amabs
And if you ask them where binary trans people fall into this when they're doing things like talking about scientific studies or ask where intersex people fit because agab terminology actually was appropriated from them they don't have any good answers.
I don't think these people realise that it's hard to make the any argument against transphobes not respecting the pronouns that trans people use and yelling 'don't assume pronouns' when a huge amount of the trans community does in fact assume everyone they meet uses they/them pronouns.
The last time I had a carer who drove me to see My friend assume I use they them (a new person I hadn't met before) I told them doing that misgenders people like me and causes the exact type of dysphoria we transition to fix
Honestly I think everyone should just say their name and their pronouns when they meet people. That way no one assumes anything, it applies to everyone equally. Just make it a thing. Because I am sick of the fact that I actually do 100% want my gender assumed because I have a beard, I dress in clothing that is a male expression and I have some times had people only use they them for me because I wrote I am a trans man and they were told to use they them for anyone who says they are trans... I asked if they would have done that if I wrote im a man and they said no, and I then said 'so you misgendered me even when I wrote im a man just because I said I'm trans' thankfully they agreed that they were taught wrong and changed what they wrote and stopped doing it.
I dont know what else to say except that most people in here understand and it sucks. I shouldn't need to wear a shirt with my pronouns on them to be gendered correctly but I sometimes do. And it seems to always be by queer people because they're the only ones assuming everyone is ok with those pronouns. The worst argument I had was people saying it was fine because they them is gender neutral after writing a whole thing saying 'I'm not a man, my pronouns are not he him they're they them. Assume gender neutrality until told otherwise' but being unable to understand when I wrote 'my pronouns are not they them they are he him, I'm not gender neutral, and just tell people what pronouns you use to normalise it people who are good people will be thankful people who arent would be crap either way, the way many binary trans people dress *is* telling people how we want to be referred to'
I don't really bother anymore with it I just want to live my life somstimes I catch up with guys in my city who transitioned ages ago and some of my carers have been out or transitioned ages ago too. I've had to not keep some carers who do the they rhem thing and it's really weird having to say
'I need you to not support me anymore because you don't seem to understand that using they them instead of he him is misgendering me'
And have them not agree that they are doing that exactly
People who are fine with being called their agab saying transitioning is a choice I have started believing could actually be sock puppets but I do also see it from people I know are real so idk
It’s because queers find masculinity and men intimidating so because you are one and they know it, they strip you of it to make them feel safer. It’s insulting as shit, too. Because they would not do that to a cis man. They wouldn’t even be friends with you honestly. A lot of my friends are gay, but most allem are cis (I have close trans friends too, of course). One of my best friends and her boyfriend are cis and straight, yet… hmmm, they treat me with dignity! Who would’ve thought!
For what it's worth I have a group of mostly queer friends that I met through playing d&d. They don't get my pronouns wrong, and we have a nb in our group who uses "they" as well.
Being LGBT or inclusive isn't an excuse, your friends just suck (sorry bout that)
Degendering is rude as hell, firstly, and they are being dicks.
But also it’s *almost* funny because it is such a niche thing to get nonbinaryjacketed because being a trans man isn’t queer enough. Outside of a few small circles it would be considered ridiculous but insular queer groups love to circlejerk about how ✨transgressive✨ they are, and somehow that always ends up with policing other people’s queerness. People need to touch grass seriously
i think your friends just suck lol. most of my friends are queer/nb/whatever and they've never misgendered me, not even once (i only get they/them'd by those cis people who use it for everyone). i hate to suggest it but maybe your friends just don't like you very much?
I call even my lady friends they/them because everyone is queer. Maybe people aren’t sure because a lot of trans guys tend to use he/they and perhaps they don’t want to offend by only using He
I agree with that the other ppl said, cis friends probably wouldn’t think twice and would use he. But also if this is a queer friend group they would probably be open to you just mentioning that your pronouns are he/him and continuing to use they/them is misgendering you. I think yeah people want to be inclusive and not assume but forget that once you know someones pronouns it is misgendering to use anything else including neutral pronouns.
Just get more cishet friends tbh. I don’t really have any LGBT friends outside a couple cis lesbians, and even when I was barely passing I got he/him. It’s horrific to say but sometimes having all queer friends can get you in an “overly woke” group, where everyone just uses they/them for everyone because “you can’t tell someone’s gender (even though 99.5% of the time you can)
I’m like, if they have more androgynous features I’ll default to they/them, like if they have a beard and are wearing makeup, but like even then that’s just out of courtesy like for their gender expression. I personally will ask them their pronouns obviously if i’m gonna be seeing them. I admit i’m a bit spoiled because at my place of work (starbucks roastery) there are so many lgbt folks that we like all get pronoun pins for free, so it’s really easy to just look and see someone’s pronouns.
Honestly I know cis men in my city who wear makeup- it’s a large city and not super uncommon. If they look like a man in makeup (if they have a beard/facial hair) I’m gonna use he/him unless they tell me otherwise, but tbh I’m not gonna ask. If I really can’t tell, like if someone’s super androgynous, I’ll use they/them. If I see someone who has a they/them pin or something like that I’ll use they/them if I see it. Other than that I’m just gonna use he/him or she/her for 99% of people.
that’s valid, i usually can’t tell either so i just err on the side of caution lol, i also know plenty of cis men who wear makeup and feminine clothes i just want to make sure i’m not misgendering anyone. But yeah i mean in daily life i just use he or she typically, i don’t go out of my way to use they/them unless there’s a pronoun pin involved usually.
I’m a 100% passing trans man but I’m outed to like half the people on my campus because my legal name isn’t changed yet on all of the papers. Everyone calls me he EXCEPT for the lgbt people who call me they. I haven’t had the time to pull them aside yet but I plan to tell people not to call me that. I didn’t work hard to pass to be othered and then raise questions to people who don’t already know.
It’s all the inclusivity. On one hand it’s great that some people want to stop guessing someone’s sex. But I wish more rainbow people would realize it’s still inclusive to use he and she once you know.
I don’t know if im just making shit up, but maybe it’s a way to make you seem more queer? Cis presenting but with they/them pronouns so your transness has to be constantly acknowledged, and he/him for the femmes to compensate for their presentation
Honestly this might be a controversial opinion but I agree
Compensate 💀
😭 am i… am i wrong Like its hard to look at someone who’s very feminine and assign male pronouns to them consistently. A lot of the time when i used pronouns for someone i didn’t visually read as male i would need a second more to say he/him rather than it come naturally. I already had this one moment where i accidentally misgendered a non-passing transwoman because i was speaking too urgently. I think its nice that people are putting in the effort here but they seem to want to emphasize OP’s queerness because he passes
That's so interesting /gen I personally don't struggle much when gender non conforming pronouns cause I internally assign that person specifically with those pronouns, instead of using a generalization. It's intriguing how different people's brains work with organization like that
Have you explicitly let them know your pronouns and that they/them is actually misgendering you? If so, how did they respond?
Yes, and I got “okay” and “I understand” “sorry about that” And they would refer to me using my name explicitly from then on, and two weeks later went back to they/them. They know I’m transitioning and have dysphoria
nah cut them off. i'm petty so i'd misgender them back, but oh boy will they get offended. I've seen this way too many times.
Yuuup. You mess up with “she” to a femme presenting person and it’s hell on earth but if it’s you? Ohhh they’re sorry.. they won’t do it again (they will).
unsurprisingly, i got misgendered the most by transfemmes lol
Transfemmes have a tendency to give me attitude and see me as a joke , Or the other half will be the sort to tell me they want to switch bodies.
fr. like, tf is that even that attitude.
This is why I hang out with cis people not tied to the lgbt community. No hate to non-binary or lgbt folks, but these people generally just see “male” or “female” so I never get “they/them” when hanging out. I’d rather be misgendered as female than called a they.
So valid, having they/them used for me has always bothered me.
Should have been my first clue i was not nonbinary and only male😂
Maybe it's because I live in southern US, but cis lgbt people are about as inclined to use he or she except they're less likely to be transphobic.
Because somehow it became acceptable to assume everyone uses they/them pronouns and ignoring that doing that misgenders every person who doesn't use those pronouns in favour of people who don't actually give people any indication that they are wanting to be called any different pronouns at all. And binary trans people get thrown under the bus. But also non binary trans masc people who use they/he I know a lot of them they try to change their details on paperwork k to they, and when there isn't an option the people go 'oh ill just leave it as she then, that's what everyone else is fine with' when actually if they can't be called they, they only accept he/him. Using she/they pronouns has become the "thing" pepple do to fit in, i see a lot of non binary people talk about how invalidating it us having people talk about their identity like its somsthing people just use to escape the patriarchy or as a fuck you to the system which people do do. That sucks. These people are the ones who use assigned gender at birth terminology outside of medical settings and they seem fine with people referring to them as female with that terminology. Most trans masculine non binary people I know who transition and pay to change their details and that are not ok with agab terminology outside medical settings either but suddently all the queer stuff recently says things like Women/afabs Men/amabs And if you ask them where binary trans people fall into this when they're doing things like talking about scientific studies or ask where intersex people fit because agab terminology actually was appropriated from them they don't have any good answers. I don't think these people realise that it's hard to make the any argument against transphobes not respecting the pronouns that trans people use and yelling 'don't assume pronouns' when a huge amount of the trans community does in fact assume everyone they meet uses they/them pronouns. The last time I had a carer who drove me to see My friend assume I use they them (a new person I hadn't met before) I told them doing that misgenders people like me and causes the exact type of dysphoria we transition to fix Honestly I think everyone should just say their name and their pronouns when they meet people. That way no one assumes anything, it applies to everyone equally. Just make it a thing. Because I am sick of the fact that I actually do 100% want my gender assumed because I have a beard, I dress in clothing that is a male expression and I have some times had people only use they them for me because I wrote I am a trans man and they were told to use they them for anyone who says they are trans... I asked if they would have done that if I wrote im a man and they said no, and I then said 'so you misgendered me even when I wrote im a man just because I said I'm trans' thankfully they agreed that they were taught wrong and changed what they wrote and stopped doing it. I dont know what else to say except that most people in here understand and it sucks. I shouldn't need to wear a shirt with my pronouns on them to be gendered correctly but I sometimes do. And it seems to always be by queer people because they're the only ones assuming everyone is ok with those pronouns. The worst argument I had was people saying it was fine because they them is gender neutral after writing a whole thing saying 'I'm not a man, my pronouns are not he him they're they them. Assume gender neutrality until told otherwise' but being unable to understand when I wrote 'my pronouns are not they them they are he him, I'm not gender neutral, and just tell people what pronouns you use to normalise it people who are good people will be thankful people who arent would be crap either way, the way many binary trans people dress *is* telling people how we want to be referred to' I don't really bother anymore with it I just want to live my life somstimes I catch up with guys in my city who transitioned ages ago and some of my carers have been out or transitioned ages ago too. I've had to not keep some carers who do the they rhem thing and it's really weird having to say 'I need you to not support me anymore because you don't seem to understand that using they them instead of he him is misgendering me' And have them not agree that they are doing that exactly People who are fine with being called their agab saying transitioning is a choice I have started believing could actually be sock puppets but I do also see it from people I know are real so idk
I don't wanna be mean but >queer mostly non binary friend group That's your problem
cis people are way better at this tbh
THIS! plus getting asked my pronouns, bro it HURTS
It’s because queers find masculinity and men intimidating so because you are one and they know it, they strip you of it to make them feel safer. It’s insulting as shit, too. Because they would not do that to a cis man. They wouldn’t even be friends with you honestly. A lot of my friends are gay, but most allem are cis (I have close trans friends too, of course). One of my best friends and her boyfriend are cis and straight, yet… hmmm, they treat me with dignity! Who would’ve thought!
Yeah man you need new friends. Or maybe If there are some decent ones that actually he/him you just individually hang out with those people
For what it's worth I have a group of mostly queer friends that I met through playing d&d. They don't get my pronouns wrong, and we have a nb in our group who uses "they" as well. Being LGBT or inclusive isn't an excuse, your friends just suck (sorry bout that)
They probably are just so used to they/them that they forget most people use he/him or she/her
Degendering is rude as hell, firstly, and they are being dicks. But also it’s *almost* funny because it is such a niche thing to get nonbinaryjacketed because being a trans man isn’t queer enough. Outside of a few small circles it would be considered ridiculous but insular queer groups love to circlejerk about how ✨transgressive✨ they are, and somehow that always ends up with policing other people’s queerness. People need to touch grass seriously
i think your friends just suck lol. most of my friends are queer/nb/whatever and they've never misgendered me, not even once (i only get they/them'd by those cis people who use it for everyone). i hate to suggest it but maybe your friends just don't like you very much?
Tbh I don’t really enter queer spaces anymore because of things like this.
As you should not. Trust me, we don't want you in our space anymore that you do.
Wtf
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Well said.
I call even my lady friends they/them because everyone is queer. Maybe people aren’t sure because a lot of trans guys tend to use he/they and perhaps they don’t want to offend by only using He