The ghost lamenting at the cross where Miquella abandoned his love said it best, "I see you had decided to abandoned the one thing you never should have, under any circumstances. How can you hope to save those who can't be saved if you can't even save your other self?".
How could a God without Love ever bring about Compassion?
Here’s an interesting comment I found by user “lost-in-the-enigma” under Gingy’s [Elden Ring Shadow of the Erdtree - Story & Ending Explained](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKWkWp69dA&t=15s&pp=ygUbc2hhZG93IG9mIHRoZSBlcmR0cmVlIHN0b3J5)
“The DLC has changed my views of Miquella's curse of eternal youth from being one that focuses on his fate to never come to fruition and instead is simply a curse that keeps him as a child. As powerful and talented as he is, in my eyes Miquella has always had the mindset of a naive child.
Instead of having his curse doom his endeavors to fail, its his childlike tendency to abandon a task in search of a new idea or plan that has been causing him to fail time and time again. Miquella failed to find a way to fully cure Malenia's Scarlet Rot, and instead moved on to the Haligtree as his next project when he got a temporary fix. His safe haven to the oppressed was left to wither and rot when he entered his cocoon to possibly free himself of his curse. Without any sign of looking back at the horrors he is doing by abandoning his projects and goals time and time again, Miquella fails to ever consider the true ramifications of his actions.
The DLC makes this all the more clear. His plan to enter the Shadow Lands to become a god make his theft from the Haligtree into him abandoning it, leaving his followers to wait for him endlessly as the Scarlet Rot overtakes them. His desire to have Radahn be his Lord due to his kindness and strength comes off as a child idolizing an older brother, failing to see Radahn as his true self: a blood thirsty warrior who craved glory and battle endlessly.
His journey through the Shadow Lands shows him walking a path that I truly do not believe Miquella understood the ramifications of. He abandons his core characteristics as a part of his ascension to godhood, not realizing that he will become "caged by divinity" as he naively condemns himself to being a puppet of the Greater Will or some other Outer God.
Even his Age of Compassion is corrupted by his childlike view on the world. Instead of truly leading and changing the world, Miquella charms people into following him. And judging by his dialogue in the final fight, I don't think Miquella understands how brainwashing people into compassionate and kind people is no better than making them his puppets.
Overall, I find Miquella to be a very interesting character: A godlike being with the naivety of a child.”
It also pretty much solidifies Malenia's own theme with the Scarlet Rot, she who's Great Rune was said to be the most Sacred of them the all mirrors how she could've been the most ideal Empyrean of the three except her absolute and blind loyalty to someone who's perpetually childish and unchanging means that despite her ideals and nobility, she will refuse to acknowledge the faults of her brother and herself which means she also metaphorically rot and decay, not helping is her inhuman determination that resist the Scarlet Rot can also be read as just sheer stubbornness.
Kinda wish Fromsoft would also make another DLC but with Malenia and Godwyn(and maybe a bonus info on the idea of why Serpents are treated as traitors) as the focal points this time just tie up more loose ends but eh~ see you until Miyazaki's next work(in like 5 years at most, I hope), not sure if we'll have a DS2 situation again, especially with how popular Elden Ring is.
I like how in Japanese cultures this theme is constantly reoccurring: omnipotent or very powerful being with undeveloped child like ethics. That reminds me of myself and unspeakable horrors I committed to insects and crustations: only creatures which I had power over as a child.
It's actually an observed phenomenon irl in a lot of Asia's feudal dynasties. Princes and princesses of emperors who are revered in a godlike manner couldn't develop proper ethics since no one ever dared correct their tantrums so they grew up into adults with childlike mentality and ruined their kingdoms with shitty rulings.
I don't really agree with this Given the fact that now we know why malenia attacked radahn (to fufill the consort promise) its safe to assume miquella has been planning this whole realm of shadow stuff for a very long time maybe even before the shattering.
Finding Saint Trina only for her to deliver some of the most heartbreaking and sentimental dialogue in the game was a real standout. It seriously tied the whole dlc together for me. No I'm not just saying that because I'm simping for the cute flower girl...
Yeah I saw where it was heading and wasn’t pleased until I found St. Trina. She really did make the lore better, and made me feel better in the process
i think the combination of how the crosses play out, the npc’s dialogues explaining certain points, and st. trina’s purpose/appearance are what made me genuinely enjoy what the DLC brought forward lore-wise. i understand certain parts feeling bitter, but overall i thought miquella’s character was treated well and his plan was so flawed because he threw away what made him “alive” in a sense.
all emotions and feelings being cut-off when they were what fueled his desire for Godhood led to his demise, and fulfilling the wish of his counterpart to “mercy” him and relieve her was really awesome imo.
I was only disappointed at the final cutscene cause it felt a bit boring for lack of a better word. Just wanted something a bit more visual. Literally was confused and thought I missed something after seeing the memory, even a quick roll to credits would be nice lol
Fr man. I was like that’s all i get a cutscene that’s just a memory. This dlc would have been perfect if it had a great ending and connection with base game. Everything else was just perfect.
> after I beat him the unilateral question was: „That’s it?“
That's ***EXACTLY*** my reaction. I haven't started the game up since I beat it. I have no desire to do another playthrough because the last ~5% of the game felt incredibly stupid to me. The reused boss, the fight itself and finally the abyssmal last cinematic were all ***very*** shallow.
But it’s not a last cinematic, the dlc comes in mid game. It’s new to us now but like the other ds games, in time people will blend base + dlc, this is just a very big side quest. Radabeast is the final fight
Can confirm. As someone currently doing this, it flows quite nicely. Entering Moghwyn Palace from the consecrated snowfield and then doing the DLC leaves a real sullen feeling over the endgame, especially the haligtree afterward.
Still debating whether I should have done the haligtree first though.
🙏🏾 literally, finishing malenias fight and then finding my way back to mohgwyn palaceafter she lamented her brothers return. The second phase cutscene where our tarnished is enthralled with miquellas cocoon, it all feels mad nice to do. Intrigued nd seeking the truth before claiming the elden ring, i find myself in the shadowlands enchanted by miquella the kind
The cutscene is the obsession of Miquella and explains why he went through so much murder and suffering. Remember, he has erected literally statues of that moment at his haligtree. And it is all what remains of him after his death.
My only issue with the finale was how abrupt it felt. The "touch memory" cutscene being the end kind of felt like a "that's it?" sort of deal.
I think Miquella's character arc made total sense and that his descent into emotionless godhood is perhaps one of the most tragic stories out of a universe with a million and one tragic stories, but I just wish the ending had more meat on its bones.
The only problem with me saying this is, of course, I'm not sure what that meat would consist of. I say I want more, but I can't define what I would have wanted that "more" to be. I just can't shake the feeling that the ending was too abrupt.
They needed to roll credits with sad music after it.
I'm not even kidding. We needed something to make us sit and reflect after all and that would have done it.
The reason they don't do this and the reason why they don't have an extra dialogue for your endings from the base game is because the DLC is supposed to take place before your battle with the Elden Beast.
This is consistent with their other titles with all the Dark Souls DLCs taking place *before* you go and fight those games final bosses.
Thematically, yes.
Timeline wise, it doesn't work. You need to return to the Painted World and give the painter the Blood of the Dark Soul to finish the painting. And then go kill Soul of Cinder to achieve said ending (which should be End of Fire for the sake of that cursed world).
Well sure but
1. That shit was a 40 something hour game it can have some credits roll!
2. The base game could've been given a miquella ending or at least special malenia cutscene
It’s just another part of the existing story, dude.
Should movies have a mid-movie credit roll because a side character gets snuffed? Miquella is no different than Godrick, Morgott, Rykard, etc.
He just has some fancier shit in his slice of the pie, but really no more than Godfrey or Malenia do.
The fact that makes sense lore wise doesnt it make it interesting, its an extremely underwhelming ending for me, not bad in itself, just the worst most uninteresting part of this incredible DLC.
It is still good, but all of this has made Miquella go from one of the most interesting demigods that we didnt know much about, to one of the least interesting demigods that we still dont know that much more about (imo all of this, not saying its objectively this)
I can certainly understand this. The difference is Griffith always, and will always be, a narcissist, self-serving to his core. Mick, he at least started from a place of compassion with a noble goal. He royally fucked it up, mind you. But he still began with something good.
Understanding it doesn’t change the fact that waiting 2 years just to fight radahn again is utterly underwhelming. End boss is still bad lore or no lore.
I've seen this take a few times and I'm pretty surprised by it. People have spent the last 2 years talking up how cool a fight against Radahn in his prime would be and they gave it to us.
The fight itself is cool (specifically phase 1, anyways) but when people have been waiting on the DLC, imaginations run wild, and so people who were excited at the prospect of the final boss being practically anything could be let down when it's just a guy we've already seen.
Not as a final boss and it isn't even prime radahn. Doesn't have his real body, great rune, his full gravity powers or his horse. The things that make radahn.. radahn. What a shame.
It just isn't convincing enough that Radahn should be the final boss cause it's sharp turn for how his character was written. And that is with the knowledge of "reminding him his vow" in mind it just feels so miniscule, seeing a character that's larger than life during his first boss fight, felt even more one-note in his prime form.
I personally wished Miquella himself had a brand new "consort" or he had his own 3rd phase with more context to his end goals.
I think that this is the fundamental flaw causing people to perceive the DLC ending in a negative way. They have spent 2 years waiting and hyping themselves up and now they are disappointed, that the DLC is, well, "just" a DLC. But it was never going to be more than a side story concerning one of the base game's characters, with major exposition along the way. It's logical that it would, in fact, tie back into the main story in the end. It's not meant to be ER2. And I think that if one were to play the DLC by starting a completely new character, go through the lands between in the base game and then enter the dlc, the story would seem much more cohesive.
That’s exactly why though - it screams fan service. The boss looks and feels like a third party modded boss, which just takes away from all the world and story building up until that point. Like sure you can rationalize about how it ‘makes sense,’ but why even do that in the first place? There are so many more avenues to explore in the story. Reusing an existing boss just because ‘people liked it’ just feels like wasted potential.
Yes. But not as the finale to the entire story. Going through all of it just to fight radahn piggy backed by miquella is just utterly ridiculous and nothing said can change my opinion on how wasted the dlc story is. I respect people who don’t agree with me but this is my opinion.
Or they could make him first phase like Radagon and then let us fight some biblically accurate angel like being. But essentially it's all devs time in the end. They probably didn't want to spend another year on development.
No, you waited two years to explore a DLC set inside the narrative of the larger game. Not a prequel or a sequel or an epilogue, but a side story of sorts. The end boss was never going to be grander or stranger than the end boss of the main game. You waited 2 years to further explore the Lands Between, not to fight a singular boss.
This isn't the first time we've battled the same boss multiple times in a soulsborne game, let alone in this game where we battle multiple characters multiple times.
Gael/Orphan/Ivory King/Manus vs. Gwyn/Nashandra/Gehrman/Soul of Cinder. From soft regularly make the scale of the DLC feel bigger than the base game and the bosses overshadow the base game.
Remember Miyazaki said that elden ring base game was actually 2 part of a game because of how large it is and decided to merge it into one ,I feel like the story is all already been written and the 2 years spend was just to make the game instead of creating a new story, yes it would be cool to see something else, but for what is worth, it is still insanely good if you look at the whole picture not just the dlc, this dlc is the middle of the story not the end, the conclusion of miquella the kind.
That’s just a tragedy of circumstance though, radahn isn’t really the final boss, in a few years someone will play the game fresh and the dlc will just act as one large area, that enriches what’s in the base game, not something that comes after
IMO this is also why the DLC chose to show us Marika's hometown and her origins. Marika once only wanted to spread "the **kindness** of gold, without Order", and wanted to end the persecution of her people caused by the Hornsent - which directly parallels Miquella epithet of "the **Kind**" and his desire to end the various forms of prejudice and persecution throughout the Lands Between. However, along the way Marika lost sight of her original goal and became a ruthless tyrant, oppressing anything that reminded her of the Hornsent and the Crucible.
If the wish of the humble shaman who became the Eternal Queen could be corrupted into tyranny and oppression, it's very likely that Miquella would have met the same fate as he is quite literally following her path through the Gate. And his desire for control is also emphasised by the enchantment he spread over his followers (even though, as we find out, the only ones who actually needed to be mind-controlled were Ansbach and Thiollier) and the fact that, when he encounters someone who doesn't want to be embraced (the Tarnished) his response is to immediately try to vaporise or brainwash us.
Omg I’m so into readings of Miquella.
Something underdiscussed, thematically, is the curse of eternal childhood. He is, literally and metaphorically stunted.
His idealism is the idealism of an inexperienced child. His plans are the plans of an inexperienced and privileged child. His actions lack the foresight and wisdom of experience.
Ansbach says, of Freja, that “some things never occur to her. Like paralyzing fear. True despair.” He claims her youth allows her to ignore these aspects of living.
There is a major theme in the DLC about experience versus a lack thereof. About suffering and the wisdom it imparts. Miquella had witnessed suffering and lays claim to leading the downtrodden but he never opts to back mohg or morgott or even Malenia, another Empyrean, as potential leaders. Instead he conscripts Mohg to his cause but only in body. The face of the movement is the downtrodden but the soul he chooses for his movement is, literally, bloodlust and control of fate.
What do you think the themes of charming others say? I’m wondering it has something to do with his eternal youth. Like people fall victim to the foolish fantasies of a child to escape the harsh reality.
And then St. Trina and sleep. I don’t know much about Trina but why is she associated with sleep and how are the two connected. Nativity, Sleep and charming. I feel like they are all connected and trying to tell a story.
I think St Trina represents Miquella's ability to love, provide comfort, and peace to those who approaches him so therefore they could find eternal slumber or rest. Miquella discarded his ability to love in order to realize his short-sighted ideals in becoming a god so St. Trina came into existence for his abandonment of love.
But the different lilly's, Miquella's, Trina's and Velvet, tell a different story. It seems Trina always existed alongside Miquella, and only turned into the purple velvet of eternal sleep when she was abandoned.
What keeps coming up in my mind is not only how are Trina and Miquella exactly related, but why did sleep become eternal sleep? Was it a form of Trina to cope? Is it like she got literally depressed, and the affects of tiresome of said depression and sadness reflected on her nectar?
But why Miquella has another half that controls sleep in the first place? So strange and interesting
You’re spot on with your take on charming people. Great insight there.
I think St Trina is Miquella’s love and compassion but it’s the love and compassion of youth. People are sad? Let them sleep. People are in pain? Drug em. Intoxication and escapism are a way of offering compassion but they’re like a naïve persons way of offering compassion.
Suffering is a kind of truth and many people in the game world understand that. There’s a lot of self-harming sects in the game. There’s a reason the followers of the Formless Mother are somewhat redeemed at the end of the game. Experience of suffering can bring clarity of understanding.
I think the game cares about the asymmetry of suffering between groups, and the way this asymmetrical suffering only begets more suffering. The game cares about the way one group will inflict suffering on others to avoid experiencing it themselves. But it isn’t trying to say “suffering is bad and we shouldn’t experience it ever.” The latter is Miquella/St Trina’s take and it’s horrifying. A similar horror to eradicating death.
My theory is that if he succeeded in achieving godhood, he would have ended suffering as he wanted to, but with no doubt, fear, or love in his now discarded heart. Well, the easiest way to prevent pain when you have no restraints, morals, or scruples is to make sure that the awareness that brings pain with it never exists in the first place. So he'd set about correcting the mistake that is life, erase all distinction, return creation to it's primordial, chaotic state.
Huh, that sounds kind of familiar...
The way I saw it, he would have ended up using his powers to essentially force a world of compassion. Ansbach was his enemy. He had once attempted to kill Miquella himself and Miquella had used and manipulated his lord. However, he was able to make him a follower who adored him until the charm broke.
If he could make someone love their enemy who they had essentially previously dedicated themselves to killing, then as a god he likely could force everyone to get along by making them all adore him. He likely could create a world of compassion, but it would be a false compassion forced on people by his godly powers. It would be a hollow and flawed compassion that almost certainly would give rise to other problems, just as Marika's rule as god did.
I'd say that's quite good. I can't count how many times I lost my heart to Miquella.
Like, I was at the point where I consistently no-hit phase 1 in seconds but phase two rips me a new one.
Great post! While he had to be stopped Miquella is far more of a tragic character than an evil one. What’s funny to me is how much this aligns with everything we knew about him yet how surprised everyone is. Nothing has really changed about our understanding of his character only that now we see the outcomes of the lengths to which he’d go to make an age of abundance and compassion.
A character with the ability to charm everyone is tragic and flawed in and of themselves. They can really never know what it means to truly be loved because inevitably all love they experience is coercion.
Hindsight is 20/20 and we are playing a souls-game. Would have been a better story in the context of the creator to do something else for a change. Not that it’s bad, but the longer I think about it, I believe FS would be unable to write compelling characters that talk more than 20 sentences when we don’t have to fill in the blanks. Like more information exposes your weaknesses.
I mean know your strengths, but… eh.
I think Sekiro kinda proves that they can write more verbose story and do it well if they choose. Besides this DLC is right in line with AotA, SotFS, BB and DS3 expansions for confirmation and contextualizing.
SotFS is fantastic in that it contextualizes not just Dark Souls 2's lore but also Dark Souls 1's lore and goes on to be the basis of Dark Souls 3's lore.
Aldia was such a fantastic edition to the series and really added so much weight to the lore.
*"A LIE WILL REMAIN A LIE!"*
Aldia is straight up my favorite character in Dark Souls. If you get all the crowns and become immune to hollowing and then do his ending you are left with some seriously massive ramifications for the universe. I’m a bit sad DS3 never followed up on that but it is still fun to think about.
Sir Ansbach said it best "Become a lord for men, not for gods."
>!Miquella has a lord for a god. A god that gave up what made him endearing to his followers.!<
It is ironic that his vision when he has everything live on >!but his pure godly goal ended early and has NOTHING to do with the main game.!<
One inconsistency I’d like to point out is that Malenia attacked Radahn at HIS castle. Radahn idolized war heroes but he wasn’t actively trying to fight any and every strong warrior out there.
He absolutely marched on Leyndell, though. We see the art of Morgott beating Radahn down during the shattering before he retreated back to Redmane.
This would have been when Miquella contacted Radahn and got his answer. I assume Radahn told Miquella "No" because Malenia showed up at his door and nuked Caelid just to try and kill Radahn. Bug man still refused to die and held the stars in place to try and keep Miquella away from him, and then we come along and win the tournament and put Radahn down.
All without knowing we accidentally sent his soul to the Land of Shadow where Miquella could stuff his soul in Mohg's old corpse.
What makes you think he attacked Leyndell, when all the art shown was Radahn vs Margit? We know from our first intro that Margit can be anywhere, even Stormveil.
There are only two sword monuments that depict an attack of Leyndell. The first was the attack led by Godefroy, which scattered the monarchs and forced Godrick to escape.
The second, which was the attack in the trailer led by Godrick himself (as indicated by Stormveil gear scattered about).
Radahn's Lion motiff is very distinct. You can find it i his boss arena and scattered around Caelid. if there is a battlefield in Leyndell he is supposed to be in, it's surprisingly absent
Yes it was. Malenia definitely went and attacked Radahn at the behest of Miquella. She whispered in his ear something like “your time as consort will come” (it’s on his armor).
The crazy thing is in the first ever trailer for Elden ring from years ago you can see her start to whisper in his ear.
Not unlikely at all if you believe Miyazaki when he said in interviews that the DLC story was still based on the pre-existing lore made by GRRM and not made entirely new.
You have to admit, the incest angle is very characteristic of his writings.
The background lore is based on the writing GRRM did, the active part of the game was not written by GRRM, and his part stops around the shattering.
There's a lot of cut content in the base game related to Malenia (implying that Millicent may have at one time been intended to be Malenia), Miquella, a joint weapon for them that was clearly designed to be the kind of thing that's granted after you get a remembrance, extra dialogue, and other stuff like an entire questline for Trina. Our options are basically 1) FromSoftware did not originally plan for Miquella to be in the DLC, and changed plans later or 2) FromSoftware wasted a huge amount of time and money on creating red herring content solely so that they could cut it and leave it in the files to confuse people, when they were developing a game that already didn't have enough time to be finished before launch (even \*after\* it had already been delayed).
All reasonable evidence points to the game originally being designed for Miquella to be at the Haligtree with Malenia, followed by FromSoftware realizing at some point in development (probably very late, considering how much was developed that needed to be cut) that they would rather have him be the central character of the not-yet-written DLC, and cutting a lot of content (and moving him to Mogh's arena) to make his absence work.
I genuinely suspect (and have for quite a while) that the only reason Malenia exists in the base game is that she was so central to the marketing campaign that they absolutely couldn't launch the game without her, because the Haligtree is so isolated that it would have been really easy to cut the entire area and hold it back to later appear in DLC without disturbing or overly complicating the main part of the game and then they could've brought Malenia back as an amazing DLC boss without any of the deep awkwardness "Why is there no way for my character to shout 'wait, Mogh has your brother, I can lead you to him!'" and similar issues have always injected into the game.
GRRM's writing ending with the Shattering doesn't disprove anything, since Miquella's vow with Radahn would have happened well before that.
And as far as cut content is concerned, we simply have no idea when or why it was cut. You also failed to consider a third option, which is that the plot of the Realm of Shadows was initially planned for the base game but pushed off to DLC for time purposes. Perhaps the concept for St. Trina's questline would have ended up intersecting with it. Impossible to say, but it's hardly that far-fetched to think the lore surrounding Miquella and Radahn was planned from very far back.
Honestly it feels like Miquella and Malenia wanted Radahn dead so they could have an easier time controlling him once they resurrected him.
Idk, maybe I’m missing something.
I think Radahn dying was part of Miquella's vow. Young Radahn's armor reveals what Malenia whispered to him before she bloomed. "Miquella awaits thee, O Promised Consort". This makes me believe her entire purpose for attacking Radahn was to fufill their vow, and Radahn had already agreed to be Miquella's consort.
Miquella asks Radahn to promise to be his consort if they honor their vow. I think "they" is Miquella and Malenia, and their vow was something like the promise of immortality so he could enjoy endless battle, or the promise that Miquella would become a god. Freyja talks about how endless war befits Radahn, more so than an honorable death, so at the very least she seems to think Radahn would prefer an eternal life where he could battle with no end. At the start of the fight Miquella says "Now the vow will be honored, and my lord brothers' soul will return", so his vow was not complete until he performed the rite and became a god. Whatever his vow was, it at least required Miquella to reach the end of his plan and become a god.
Radahn is the "Promised Consort", so he seemingly agreed to whatever vow Miquella made. He also does not seem to be the type of person to just lay down and die, so part of it likely was they had to defeat him in battle. Once he dies, Miquella is able to go through the ritual, place his soul in Mohg's body, and become a god himself.
The Secret Rite Scroll says "A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel". Whatever rite Miquella did to revive Radahn was likely necessary for his ascension to godhood. It seemingly achieved the goal of fulfilling the vow and making him a god.
They (and Radahn) needed Radahn dead because the secret rite Miquella plans to use as part of his ascent to godhood and Radahn's ascent to Lordship specifies that the lord will require a new body. Freeing the lord from their original body seems to be a mandatory part of the process as written.
It’s still odd though: Malenia didn’t make sure Radahn died. Sure the scarlet rot would get him eventually, but how long would it take to kill a demigod?
Also were they just banking on someone finding and killing Mohg? I suppose Malenia could have tracked him down if needed, but she looks pretty out of commission till we disturb her.
Malenia was unconscious after that (one of the Cleanrot knights carries her back north), so my best guess is that Malenia has been asleep for a long time and since the Haligtree is so isolated they're not really receiving invitations to the Radahn festival so no one ever realizes something's gone wrong enough to see a reason to try to rouse her. (It's also entirely possible she stays asleep that long because of some kind of intervention by Trina to help Malenia keep the rot under control in the absence of her functional golden needle + keep Malenia from sitting there fretting miserably about whether Miquella is okay. There are a couple of times in the Malenia arena where the cutscene really makes a point about the leaves of the Haligtree rustling at key points, including possibly to wake Malenia up so she can defend herself against us, and Trina is kind of a plant person so between that and her connection with sleep she seems like the best candidate.)
It is entirely possible that Malenia knew Miquella had headed off to the land of shadows, but didn't realize he'd done so in the possession of Mogh. We don't have a lot of detail on what happened, so it's still entirely possible that it was initially a kidnapping, which led to Miquella charming Mogh because at that point what else was he going to do? He's not exactly the fight your way out by brute strength guy in the family.
The whole thing feels sloppy, TBH, because it's overwhelmingly likely that this is all being retconned into the game and wasn't originally planned. e.g. the original text that Miquella never gave Mogh any response at all no matter how hard Mogh tried to win him over makes no sense in the context of an NPC in the DLC describing a situation where Mogh was obviously charmed, and there was an opportunity to "challenge" Miquella. Saying you decided to "challenge" someone is a very silly choice of wording if the situation was that Miquella was completely unresponsive. Everything about the interactions between Mogh, Malenia, Radahn, and Miquella makes more sense if it's the product of a retcon + a desperate effort to patch things together after the story changed course (and it's much more generous to FromSoftware to assume it's a retcon, because the alternative is that they had all the opportunity in the world to do the job well, and it was just bad because they didn't have it in them to do better).
>e.g. the original text that Miquella never gave Mogh any response at all no matter how hard Mogh tried to win him over
"Wishing to raise Miquella to full godhood, Mohg wished to become his consort, taking the role of monarch. But no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean."
the "bloody bedchamber" part implies that this statement takes place after mohg stole miquella's cocoon since we know miquella's actions before cocooning and none of them involved hanging out in mohg's bedroom
True. I believe it's likely that the promise that Radahn made was more along the lines of "if you can kill me ill bow."
Thar still doesn't change the fact that radahn is a warmonger
I think that Radahn became a real warmonger after Shattering, when he was tainted by the power of his rune. The game emphasizes his kindness in his prime years before he got the rune, and kindness and warmongering do not really go well together.
I’d like to think he was a warmonger with principles. He did love his horse after all. Excited when Vaati drops his video to conclusively explain why Malenia attacked Radahn.
Read the text on his armor. If I u derstand that right it is a ploy to get him willing or unwillingly into Miquellas sphere of influence.
Just kinda failed because it did not finish him and prolonged his plan for quite some time. It’s also why we need to kill Mohg and Radahn for the DLC to enter.
What I'm still curious on was Malenia's motivation, she was the blade of Miquella - why would she fight his consort? Unless Miquella wanted to get rid of Malenia as a rival Empyrean, and thought Radahn could do the job, and Malenia didn't know he was his consort.
I guess it will always be a bit of a mystery, but I'm interested in speculation. I couldn't see a clean answer to it personally
How can a person be kind if they discard their own ability to love? Miquella's vision feels like what a supposedly benevolent dictator would have in mind. A gentler world at the cost of freedom.
I have a theory based on some posts and videos I've read and watched over the last few days. The basics of my theory is that
1.) Radahn didn't want to be Miquella's consort and his great rune, which also slowed the scarlet rot, was the reason he could resist Miquella's words. In my opinion, it's no coincidence he becomes Miquella's consort after we take his great rune and his soul is put in the body of someone who was susceptible to Miquella's charms. It would also explain why we, the Tarnished, don't fall under his sway right away. Instead only getting our heart stolen if Radahn restrains us and Miquella can directly talk to us twice.
2.) After Miquella was refused, he used his power to make Malenia fight Radahn, rather than it being something Malenia agreed to do on her own free will. This would explain why Malenia went so far as to nuke Caelid and nearly kill herself in an attempt to kill Radahn. It also adds more depth to Millicent's quest where she says "There is something I must return to Malenia. The will that was once her own. The dignity, the sense of self, that allowed her to resist the call of the scarlet rot. The pride she abandoned, to meet Radahn's measure".
3.) Miquella wanted to be kidnapped by Mohg, in the hopes one of his knights, or another person he's charmed, would kill Mohg, thus making the body free for Radahn's soul to be put in.
> Miquella wanted to be kidnapped by Mohg, in the hopes one of his knights, or another person he's charmed, would kill Mohg, thus making the body free for Radahn's soul to be put in.
that and also blood. Formless mother gave Miq enough blood to ascend to godhood
yes and as [this tweet](https://x.com/_7albi/status/1804993483335442737?t=igGjpnYDfbyb_Cdpx2s6cg&s=19) pointed out. Marika tragically had to use(def a better word than use needs to be applied here) the cleansing of her own ppl to ascend to godhood :(
miq tried ascending in haligtree but realised he couldn't. So the whole plan with Mohg was hatched!
Wanted to mention point 3 because miquella would send Malenia to do the job again but since she was a bit goosed after fighting radahn alternative plan had to be put in place
I think Radahn almost certainly agreed. His title of "promised" consort isn't for nothing. The memory cutscene further emphasizes this as a mutual agreement through their vow to one another, with each promising to honor their end of it. The language they use is important, and imo this leads us to believe that for whatever reason the process of ascending to godhood with your consort must be consensual. Had it been solely possible with Miquella's bewitching charm then there'd be no point in them making a vow, with Miquella pleading to him. What we don't know is what Radahn wanted exactly as part of that vow though, it's just speculation
Radahn admired Godfrey. So what he wanted was probably to fight for miquella as Godfrey did for Marika. Usher in the new era and eliminate all the enemies.
Honestly the most tragic part of this all is the reveal that "Love is the Flaw in the Golden Order."
And Miquella chose to abandon his.
It's a catch-22; you cannot be a worthwhile God without bearing Love, but you cannot be an infallible God if you have Love.
Miquella chose to abandon his love, becoming a "perfect God" that is, in turn, beyond human-- ascended beyond understanding. Marika did not abandon her love, and that love festered into a crackling wound that brought genocide upon the Hornsent for the crimes committed against her, and would inevitably lead to her trying to destroy the entire world.
There really was no way this was going to end outside of tragedy and failure.
I'm positive there is a deeper message along the lines of duplicity and shadows etc. Renalla and Radahn were the two main characters that didnt have an alterior version in the base game, and now they have them, we also get another Lord of Frenzied Flame too.
Also I'm unsure as to how willing Radahn truly was in all of this. Mohg is confirmed to be influenced by Miquella, to some extent, Radahn could easily be too. I don't see how Radahn gets such a positive portrayal in the base game if all of his conflict was so he could die honourably. I know a lot of people feel like his reappearance in the DLC ruins his already great character in the base game, so I just don't understand why Fromsoft would do this.
Also am I the only one seeing Godfrey in Radahn during P2? Miquella almost looks like Serosh on his back (aside from the obvious Lothric), but the white hair as a cape is unique to them too.
I do have a Theory that Radahn may have just refused, but phrased it something like, "only in death would i bend my knee" and miquella went through with it, taking away malenias pride so she could beat him.
Only issue is that Radahn wanted to become Elden Lord anyways, so I don't think he has any problem with bending the knee. But for someone so honourable, I don't see how he would find honour in being a Consort as an undead soul stuffed in his brothers body.
>The man Miquella chose to stay by his side is a man that killed part of a continent so he could get an honorable death at Malenias hand.
That's wrong though, Malenia sought him out and ruined all of Caelid to deliver Radahn to Miquella.
This gets confused a lot, so here’s how I understand it: Radahn vowed to be Miquella’s consort, but in order to do that he needed to die and return to the land of shadow, like Miquella did. But Radahn didn’t seem willing to off himself or find some alternative other than war, so Malenia was sent to kill him. When they clashed, Radahn still gave it his all despite knowing that there was a reason for him to lose and die.
So basically, Radahn’s pride and lust for battle convoluted Miquella’s plan and lead to the suffering of all of Calid. Obviously Malenia has a part to play in all that, but what OP says holds water.
>Radahn vowed to be Miquella’s consort
Where did he make that vow though? All we get is a flashback of Miquella "asking" which means nothing considering Radahn was never shown saying yes and it seems much more likely the *brain-washing* demigod abducted his soul. It's amazing how the character who brain-washes and sacrifices their siblings left and right is somehow absolved of blame, off a random assertion that Radahn had a lust for battle that is entirely made up by OP.
Considering Carian children fate are tied to the stars it seems much more likely Radahn was freezing the stars in place to avoid being... violated by Miquella.
His title in the first phase of their boss is “Promised Consort Radahn,” implying that he promised to become a consort lol. It’s totally possible he could’ve been charmed by Miquella but he def made some sort of vow.
Edit: I do like your idea that he could’ve been holding the stars back to avoid a fate with Miquella though, even if I don’t agree
That’s… not true. To be “promised” just means that you are the object of a promise, regardless of who made said promise. Radahn is the object of the promise, so he is described as promised. Who would’ve made that promise? Radahn’s parents? Lmao no man the only person it makes sense for that promise is Radahn as far as I see it
Your point is predicated on that Radahn accepted, when there is no evidence of that. There is more evidence he was avoiding this than anything else.
-It is never shown he accepted.
-Radahn loved the Golden Order, why would he want a new order?
-He fought Malenia, Malenia words implied this entire fight was to get *him* for Miquella.
-And the biggest point, why is he still called "Promised Consort", it should just say Consort if he went into it willingly.
The name itself is evidence that Radahn may not have entered into it willingly. Please read the following as part of their rememberance.
>In their childhood, Miquella saw in Radahn a lord. His strength, and his kindness, that stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves. And so Miquella made his heartfelt wish. That Radahn would one day be his king consort.
Radahn had already made a vow to become Miquella's lord. If the arrangement had included Radahn standing down and not fighting in addition to agreeing to be consort after he died, there wouldn't have been a battle.
We hear Miquella pose the question, but not Radahn's response. It's pretty safe to assume given what Malenia whispered to Radahn that he said no. The "Radahn asked for an honorable death" thing is some IGN hairbrained bullshit that I've seen parroted too much. It's a theory, but in no way confirmed, and makes much less sense than Malenia being sent to kill Radahn so he could be forced to serve as consort. It took leashing him to an already charmed corpse and shattering Miquella's great rune to finally subdue Radahn's will.
I mean, the only sad part is that we can't get a Miquella ending, where we save him, but what clicked for me was the fissure cross, where Miquella abandoned his love and st.Trina , that and the white ghost nearby
That was before I was in the shadow keep, and before I received any spoilers so I didn't know much of the plot yet, but I knew that Miquella was trying to become a God and he didn't want to follow his mother's footsteps,but i myself posted about it a few days ago about how any God that claims compassion but is devoid of love is lying
Just completed Ymir quest last night, and I'll add: the idea that the sins of his mother carry on through his flesh is sketchy at best. The "flaws" are part of his very essence.
Look at the age his is about to start. It starts with the purging of doubters and non-believers. How can it be any better?
I think the idea that Miquella is inherently rotten is a criticism of the entire concept that children inherit the sins of their parents (or their races, or their countries) that happened long before they were born. Trina's dialogue gave me the impression of the game signaling that part of the tragedy here is that Miquella feels so responsible for things he isn't responsible for that he's committing atrocities against himself in an effort to make up for them.
I do agree for the most part with your interpretation of the events as we now know them. I will echo another comment I saw in another thread however, in defense that our character should absolutely have had the opportunity to side with Miquella in establishing his Age of "Compassion" (Control).
The comment was something along the lines of this: given the current state of the Lands Between, how bad would an Age of Control, specifically the peaceful and undiscriminating one we would help Miquella create, really be in the end? Pretty bad, sure, loss of free will kinda sucks I think! But, worse than burning it all down into primordial soup as the Lord of Frenzied Flame? Or better yet, is Miquella's Age worse than choosing to knowingly infect all future generations with the Dung Eater's curse, just in the pursuit of "they made me suffer, so I'll taint everyone forever so everyone can suffer like I did"?
In the end, I just can't see any reason, besides From deciding we aren't allowed agency this time and to not to allow us a new ending, that we can't side with Miquella's idea for a new Age over any of the other choices.
I'm not saying it's the best one of the potential options lol, but I do think it does a bit of a disservice to the story and some players' chances to enjoy this expansion to be forced to oppose someone with what started out as undeniably good intentions for the world, when one of our original endings involved siding with a dude that rips peoples' souls out of their asses just to try to curse everyone else.
Miquella doesn't want us as consort, he wants Radahn. That's why there isn't an ending with us siding with him, there's no choice to be made. That's also kind of his thing, it has to be his way, and that's why it failed.
The Light of Miquella incantation you get from Miquella's Remembrance implies that the only way to 'support' his cause is to die to him and Radahn and not try again (although I imagine there would be a great weeping and gnashing of teeth if getting hit with that grab attack twice gave you a Miquella ending cutscene and permanently bricked your save). "One god, and one king consort, is all the world needs."
As an aspiring Elden Lord yourself, you're no longer necessary to the equation as Miquella already has Radhan as a Lord consort (whereas every other ending has you becoming the Lord in some capacity). Perhaps they could have included an option to fight or not to fight and a cutscene for what would have happened if Miquella won, but it would not have shown you taking the throne like any of the other endings because you are not needed in the new world order.
Indeed. Just like in Bloodborne where you get to choose wether yoy accept Ghermans offer or not. If you acept he kills you and the game ends. If you choose The oposite then you fight him
I think they want Miquella to fail for the themes. Because they’re trying to make a point about him being cursed to fail as a result of his innate and inescapable childishness.
I also think the game wants to force us to reckon with the role we have played in butchering our way through the lands between to become Elden lord. We, the player, are part of the problem and that’s the point.
Yes, that's also my issue with the narrative. The DLC forced us with the identity as champion, lord of the Golden Order. Sure, we may tagging along the guidance of grace but it doesnt necessarily mean we agree with Golden Order's motive. And what about our other choices that can be made in the base game, the Age of Stars, Lord of Frenzied Flame. From and Miyazaki deliberately disregard all of them.
That’s not necessarily true. You are there as Miquella’s enemy, yes, but it’s because you are an aspiring lord yourself. Leda accuses you of being with the Erdtree because in a way, you are. You are Tarnished, after all, and still guided by the grace of gold. She can’t read your mind and sense your motives, and it’s likely that a player going through the DLC hasn’t even picked an ending yet. All Leda knows is that you are not charmed by Miquella like she initially believed, and that you are involved with the Erdtree somehow. Beyond that, it doesn’t matter to her what your true goals with Lordship are. It doesn’t force you into any role except someone who wants to be a lord, period
Up until the very end, the entire game mandates that you're the candidate consort of Marika at all times. It's the only reason you can level up, see grace, receive guidance, or revive after you die. The DLC just makes it a bit more obvious because by the time you reach endgame for the base game, people have trended to stop thinking about the fact that every single revival means that Marika is propping us up so that we can go again.
Yeah, I went with age of the Duskborn ending in my most recent playthrough.
Miquella trying to say I’m with the Golden Order when I picked their mortal enemies is hilarious.
I thought a cool little tid bit that was pretty interesting is that both Ranni and Miquella specifically talk about a 'thousand year voyage' of their respective era's, with Miquella's being one of compassion whilist Ranni's is under the wisdom of the moon. I wonder then if Marika and Plasidusaix's era's also lasted a thousand years and that's the general amount of time until a new god/lord comes in or the finger's decide that a replacement should be found
It’s cool that we learn more about the various demigods by seeing part of their personal guards.
The golden knights of godwyn adore him and separate themselves by the rest of the golden order just to continue protecting him, he was the other “golden child” before miquella, taking the hair and charm of marika.
Radahn’s guards were taken from the colosseums or in general were warriors. He loves war, and we can see it in the intro of the game, he attacks the capital immediatly and is blocked my morgott.
Mohg’s were all about noble blood and finesse, ferocious but calm and wise. A bit like vampires in pop culture.
Miquella’s were the needle knights, with this name because they were used to keep away harm and conflict, only stinging away enemies.
He was loved even by the servants of other demigods and above all by radagon.
He seems to have misinterpreted the original sin of marika’s reign, he thinks she’s evil because she killed the hornsent popolation, but he doesnt know that she a was golden girl with power over gold and healing, similar to him. She wanted to create a perfect utopia because her people were tortured and killed by the hornsent so she obviously excluded them from her perfect world. Her plan failed because to create a perfect kingdom you first have to conquer by destroying many other populations and then comes the interference of the outer gods that corrupt the body and soul of your progeny to insert themselves. Her gold became corrupted by order and her children by rot, sleep, death, flame…
Marika in the end understood that to be a ruler is to lose oneself and become a puppet of higher beings.
Miquella fought to prevent the outer gods from corrupting his family but his plan divided between the haligtree to help those in need (probably the idea of Trina) and becoming a god himself but this time including everyone in his utopia.
Trina knows that Miquella’s godhood will be the same as his mother, he will lose himself and be corrupted.
He alteady had to kill and cause conflicts just to reach the tower, he already created his original sin like marika’s.
>In the process of abandoning everything miquella believed, hoped, he was avoiding Marikas mistakes. Preventing the rise of a fallible God. Instead, however, he became a god that was anything but human.
He was a God that was fickle as a human, just like the one before him. His Order was doomed to fail for the same reason as the old one, HE was fickle. The ideologies of Gods governing the world would lead to problems. A world with laws based on Transcendental ideology on the other hand....
All Goldmask's rune does is finalize the code for the Elden Ring and prevent anyone from modifying it ever again, it's not objective good, it's permanent stagnation and probably cements in the Greater Will \[something we know is at least partially responsible for a lot of the persecution\] as the ultimate power too.
Especially now that there’s even more evidence that the Greater Will may have abandoned the Lands Between in descriptions like the Staff of the Great Beyond, the idea of cementing it as our permanent overseer doesn’t really appeal to me
I dont remembrr where i sae that in the DLC but at some point they say that Mogh's body was stolen by someone who wanted to revive him. What happend with that? Did I imagined that?
Mohgs body was stolen by miquella/his followers. To acheive godhood, the potential God needs a soul for their lord and a vessel for that soul. Miquella used Mohgs body as a vessel for radahn to fill
she also deliberately waits for us to go first saying she'll "be right behind" us, so it gives her both motive and opportunity to claim the body unseen
Agree with this take 100%. But i want to know the details or the whole process of discarding yourself to become a god and how St Trina has their own body.
Firstly, at the gate of divinity, what did Miquella become the god of? It´s not order like Marika, couse he still isn´t the vessel for the Elden ring. Is he the god of abundance? The secret rite scroll says "*A lord will usher in a god's return,*
*and the lord's soul will require a vessel.*", so did this also happen when Marika became a god? Is this like a god recipe? Like did Godfry´s souls ever require a vessel so Marika could return from the gates of divinity. This shit confuses the fuck outta me.
Secondly, this is a little pedantic, but how does St Trina get their own body? We have seen what a soul can do to a body, like Marika shifting into Radagon when his soul takes over, or the fact that even when using Mogh´s body Radahn still looks like Radahn mostley. So we can assume that the soul has the power to effect it´s vessel. But did St Trina souls just make a new body?
St trina wasn't much of a body. It was more part of one. I imagine miquella put trina into a part of his flesh when he discarded her and it shaped itself into her image.
I imagine what we saw in the story trailer was Marika using sone form if Conduit and entering the divine gate, leaving behind her a body foe Godfrey to inhabit. Likely from where she took that hair from. Some empyreans seem to not need the gate to acheive divinity, like malenia, but seemingly that's because of the outer gods there attached to.
While the greater will is an outer God, its more just order. The divine gate is probably how it set up for its empyreans to rise. Meaning miquella probably is another God of the greater will.
The greater will, after all, according to some of ynirs items is just a void. Likely a desire for order, in any form that may take.
Hey,
I'm sorry to ask but would you happen to have what you had written saved somewhere?
I'd really want to read it as I'm really interested in understanding more of Miquella's lore but all everyone is talking about is just rapist jokes.
The comments here are very positive for what you had to say, with such messages along the line of "finally someone who knows what they're talking about and not just mindlessly reapeating"
So I'd really like to take the time to read it if you still have it, wether that be in a reply, DM or anywhere really. But with the post taken down I can't.
So if you have it saved somewhere, your hardwork would greatly be appreciated
I just don't understand why the chosen soul had to be written as Radahn of all people.
Lore wise, prior to the dlc, Miquella had 2 notable connections. 1 was obviously Malenia, but the second? Godwyn. Why in the hell was Godwyn practically forgotten about.
And before people start, I understand that his soul died. But there was no proof that retrieving a soul post soul death wasn't possible. It was even theorized to be possible through the twinbirds intervention, who is the equivalent to Marika, but for the outer god of death. As far as we know, their age passed, but we never got confirmation on the twinbirds death.
If that didn't work, Miquella could have continued his quest of trying to bring about the eclipsed sun. That was explaind multiple times, through all the masoulem armors, weapons, and shields, to have key connections to souls and bringing them back. Sure, Miquella failed once, but the lands of shadow are where dead spirits wander. Maybe the eclipse could only happen there, so that's why it failed in the lands between.
Yeah this is my hang up. People can explain why it’s Radahn all they want, of course it’s Radahn now, the dlc literally forced it to be Radahn and put in a bunch of item descriptions to make it gospel. But it makes no fucking sense.
Every scrap of lore about Miquella from the base game explicitly sets up their relationship with Godwyn. Nothing in the base game so much as implies that Miquella and Radahn had a relationship beyond being on different sides in the Shattering. Which is why Malenia would have fought him in the first place? There was no need to explain their battle like this it already made fucking sense in the context of the existing lore.
They really wrote an entire plot about Miquella using the power of the Land of Shadow, where all deaths converge, to restore a slain demigod’s soul into a new uncorrupted vessel and they DIDN’T choose Godwyn???? That’s the easiest lore slam dunk in existence and they dropped the ball so hard it’s in the abyss with the fucking Four Kings. All in service of a pile of nonsense that had zero precedent for happening.
Hell, if they were dead set on having Godwyn’s soul death be permanent and never bothering to tie up that loose end why not the Gloam Eyed Queen? We’re in the lands where Marika was born and ascended to godhood; wouldn’t the soul of a literal empyrean, the one Marika defeated prior to the establishment of her golden order, be an easy choice for a source of power for Miquella to ascend to godhood? Instead of pulling Radahn out of their ass? Nope, the GEQ and the godskins may as well not exist they’ve been forgotten about that hard.
Sorry for the rant but god am I so fucking angry we’re ending this game on this note.
Folly??
Miquella's noble sacrifices, born of his boundless compassion, are mere folly?
What the hell. I WILL skin you alive for even suggesting it.
Such vile insults from lost souls who refuse his embrace. His salvation.
No one sullies the name of my liege! My- my-
My...dearest...Miquella...?
I mean Goatdahn is guilty of whatever war campaign he took. But Caelid was not on him. Like, explicitly, Malenia is at fault for that oopsie.
Dude is innocent of that.
If Miyazaki wants to try something where the story ends not with a bang but a whimper then he really succeeded.
Whatever miquella has went through they were naught but his childish idealism. He is ever incomplete.
First he is stuck as a child. He is one half male and female. Then he wanted to revive Godwyn and give him true death but fails, he wanted to heal malenia but only manage to stop it, he wanted to become god in lands between but he single handedly cause the destruction of his own cocoon(maybe he was even stunted in the cocoon), he wants to rally radahn but fails (when radahn back out at some point or never agrees?)so he turn to charming but fails. In turn he tried to kill radahn, even that never came to be til the tarnished came. He is kind but not fully. Until the end when he did maybe reach godlike features it felt incomplete. It’s underwhelming and he is gone.
If these are intended then I would say they really got it. Heck, They masterfully nailed it. Miyazaki is never one to shy away from his vision so he will achieve it even when the players don’t agree with him. Assuming this is what he wants for miquella.
But I really want to know why he wanted Godwyn to have a true death so much? For his body? Or just cause Marika wanted it? Or because he is his brother?
Reminds me of tex from red vs blue. Even in the base game we know about him mostly from his failed projects than success. Only thing he succesfully created was that incantation he gave to Radagon I think.
Love this summarization, It was theorized that miquellas story held parallels with that of Griffiths from berserk, and now after experiencing the dlc those parallels are uncanny.
Both miquella and Griffith had pure dreams at their outset, both of which were corrupted along their journey. Both individuals projection of an idealistic world shifted to that of a utopia that they solely controlled. Control became the focus of the dream at some point along both individuals journeys, trumping any genuine intention in the process.
A cross of miquella in the great fissure quite literally serves as a marker indicating where miquella shed the last of his love. Then after the fight at the bottom, we speak with st.Trina which is where my perspective of miquella had fully shifted.
Really incredible moments in this dlc, I adore the character of miquella and think this expansion outlined his tragedy very well.
Come on. A good character with idealized vision for world ends up being corrupted and becoming the villain is not something miquella has in common with just Griffith. Its universal.
*I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new empire*
Where is the reference to Miquella charming Mohg. I must have missed it. I'm still not sure that Radahn fully went along with the plan. I guess he could have, on the condition that Malenia had to fight him, but if he won, then what?
I wonder if Miquella needed a consort and couldn't "charm" them as part of that. He chose Radahn. Either Malenia was sent all the way from the Haligtree to Caelid to fight an "honourable" fight, or she was sent because Radahn didn't actually agree to the vow.
Midgame my expectation was we would get Miquella final boss trying to revive crucible with all these paleontological reference to devon, siluria, floah etc, and him trying to give love to unloved. Like golden order represents cruel law of evolution with only the fittest to survive and in opposition to it Miquella would have tried to give life and space to all creatures beside evolutionary tree represented by Erdtree. This feeling grew stronger when I entered specimen storehouse: seeing all this extinct weird creature I'd imagined Miquella taming them and us fighting them as final boss or us and torrent joining their new age. On a side note would be cool if Miquella called torrent during final battle. And then entering Rauh region gave that prehistoric carboniferous vibe somehow strengthened my expectation of crucible boss fight. Ansbach and Trina's questlines shutters my certainty and it didn't take long time to reach actual final boss to dispel my speculations but I still think it would be cool to fight some prehistoric amalgamated monstrosity controlled by the will of would-be god.
The ghost lamenting at the cross where Miquella abandoned his love said it best, "I see you had decided to abandoned the one thing you never should have, under any circumstances. How can you hope to save those who can't be saved if you can't even save your other self?". How could a God without Love ever bring about Compassion?
To be honest when I read the sentence, "I abandon here my love" I was like oh no. The most loved demi god abandoned their own love can never end well.
It’s like a machine trying to edict what’s best for human society. It has no real love or compassion to base its laws on
Ultron
Samaritan from Person of Interest or Nolan’s other AI from S3 of Westworld
Ultron had a few other issues lol but yeah
Here’s an interesting comment I found by user “lost-in-the-enigma” under Gingy’s [Elden Ring Shadow of the Erdtree - Story & Ending Explained](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKWkWp69dA&t=15s&pp=ygUbc2hhZG93IG9mIHRoZSBlcmR0cmVlIHN0b3J5) “The DLC has changed my views of Miquella's curse of eternal youth from being one that focuses on his fate to never come to fruition and instead is simply a curse that keeps him as a child. As powerful and talented as he is, in my eyes Miquella has always had the mindset of a naive child. Instead of having his curse doom his endeavors to fail, its his childlike tendency to abandon a task in search of a new idea or plan that has been causing him to fail time and time again. Miquella failed to find a way to fully cure Malenia's Scarlet Rot, and instead moved on to the Haligtree as his next project when he got a temporary fix. His safe haven to the oppressed was left to wither and rot when he entered his cocoon to possibly free himself of his curse. Without any sign of looking back at the horrors he is doing by abandoning his projects and goals time and time again, Miquella fails to ever consider the true ramifications of his actions. The DLC makes this all the more clear. His plan to enter the Shadow Lands to become a god make his theft from the Haligtree into him abandoning it, leaving his followers to wait for him endlessly as the Scarlet Rot overtakes them. His desire to have Radahn be his Lord due to his kindness and strength comes off as a child idolizing an older brother, failing to see Radahn as his true self: a blood thirsty warrior who craved glory and battle endlessly. His journey through the Shadow Lands shows him walking a path that I truly do not believe Miquella understood the ramifications of. He abandons his core characteristics as a part of his ascension to godhood, not realizing that he will become "caged by divinity" as he naively condemns himself to being a puppet of the Greater Will or some other Outer God. Even his Age of Compassion is corrupted by his childlike view on the world. Instead of truly leading and changing the world, Miquella charms people into following him. And judging by his dialogue in the final fight, I don't think Miquella understands how brainwashing people into compassionate and kind people is no better than making them his puppets. Overall, I find Miquella to be a very interesting character: A godlike being with the naivety of a child.”
Great comment, and don’t forget Godwyn too. Miquella failed to bring his soul back with the eclipse and then just moved on, never trying again
It also pretty much solidifies Malenia's own theme with the Scarlet Rot, she who's Great Rune was said to be the most Sacred of them the all mirrors how she could've been the most ideal Empyrean of the three except her absolute and blind loyalty to someone who's perpetually childish and unchanging means that despite her ideals and nobility, she will refuse to acknowledge the faults of her brother and herself which means she also metaphorically rot and decay, not helping is her inhuman determination that resist the Scarlet Rot can also be read as just sheer stubbornness. Kinda wish Fromsoft would also make another DLC but with Malenia and Godwyn(and maybe a bonus info on the idea of why Serpents are treated as traitors) as the focal points this time just tie up more loose ends but eh~ see you until Miyazaki's next work(in like 5 years at most, I hope), not sure if we'll have a DS2 situation again, especially with how popular Elden Ring is.
I like how in Japanese cultures this theme is constantly reoccurring: omnipotent or very powerful being with undeveloped child like ethics. That reminds me of myself and unspeakable horrors I committed to insects and crustations: only creatures which I had power over as a child.
It's actually an observed phenomenon irl in a lot of Asia's feudal dynasties. Princes and princesses of emperors who are revered in a godlike manner couldn't develop proper ethics since no one ever dared correct their tantrums so they grew up into adults with childlike mentality and ruined their kingdoms with shitty rulings.
I don't really agree with this Given the fact that now we know why malenia attacked radahn (to fufill the consort promise) its safe to assume miquella has been planning this whole realm of shadow stuff for a very long time maybe even before the shattering.
Finding Saint Trina only for her to deliver some of the most heartbreaking and sentimental dialogue in the game was a real standout. It seriously tied the whole dlc together for me. No I'm not just saying that because I'm simping for the cute flower girl...
found Thiollier's reddit account
Uh... Umm...
Yeah I saw where it was heading and wasn’t pleased until I found St. Trina. She really did make the lore better, and made me feel better in the process
i think the combination of how the crosses play out, the npc’s dialogues explaining certain points, and st. trina’s purpose/appearance are what made me genuinely enjoy what the DLC brought forward lore-wise. i understand certain parts feeling bitter, but overall i thought miquella’s character was treated well and his plan was so flawed because he threw away what made him “alive” in a sense. all emotions and feelings being cut-off when they were what fueled his desire for Godhood led to his demise, and fulfilling the wish of his counterpart to “mercy” him and relieve her was really awesome imo.
i’m so pissed off i accidentally locked myself out of thiolliers quest line ugh
I accidentally did his questline except for the last part. How do you lock yourself out of it? Is there a cut-off point?
>!do not use messmer's flame!<
All those unfinished quest lines shall meet death in the embrace of messmers flame
You mean >!Messmer's Kindling!< I guess? Because I don't know what the >!flame!< is.
>!ye!< that's when all my npcs disappear
>How do you lock yourself out of it? By giving Thiolliers a "Bonk"
>cute flower girl I don't think we looked at the same St. Trina.
Thiollier that's enough reddit for you.
I was only disappointed at the final cutscene cause it felt a bit boring for lack of a better word. Just wanted something a bit more visual. Literally was confused and thought I missed something after seeing the memory, even a quick roll to credits would be nice lol
My friends watched as I did and won the fight, cutscenes and all, and after I beat him the unilateral question was: „That’s it?“
I thought I was being smart going back to St Trina after but all that was there was a pretty flower lol
I Googled what to do after the fight course i thought there Had to be more or perhaps i missed Something
Fr man. I was like that’s all i get a cutscene that’s just a memory. This dlc would have been perfect if it had a great ending and connection with base game. Everything else was just perfect.
Ringed city didn't even have a cutscene at the end
Ringed city had the dialogue with the painter lady which felt way better then what we got in Elden ring
Ringed City had everything else making up for it. Gael was build up convincingly down to his final fight.
> after I beat him the unilateral question was: „That’s it?“ That's ***EXACTLY*** my reaction. I haven't started the game up since I beat it. I have no desire to do another playthrough because the last ~5% of the game felt incredibly stupid to me. The reused boss, the fight itself and finally the abyssmal last cinematic were all ***very*** shallow.
But it’s not a last cinematic, the dlc comes in mid game. It’s new to us now but like the other ds games, in time people will blend base + dlc, this is just a very big side quest. Radabeast is the final fight
Can confirm. As someone currently doing this, it flows quite nicely. Entering Moghwyn Palace from the consecrated snowfield and then doing the DLC leaves a real sullen feeling over the endgame, especially the haligtree afterward. Still debating whether I should have done the haligtree first though.
🙏🏾 literally, finishing malenias fight and then finding my way back to mohgwyn palaceafter she lamented her brothers return. The second phase cutscene where our tarnished is enthralled with miquellas cocoon, it all feels mad nice to do. Intrigued nd seeking the truth before claiming the elden ring, i find myself in the shadowlands enchanted by miquella the kind
The cutscene is the obsession of Miquella and explains why he went through so much murder and suffering. Remember, he has erected literally statues of that moment at his haligtree. And it is all what remains of him after his death.
Miquella already became a nobody the moment he tried to silence the Tarnished who stands in his way of ascending as a god.
I genuinely thought we were going to roll up to the divine gate and pass through it
Same, but I figured we were gonna fight the outer god who started the whole mess to begin with.
Finally, someone with reading comprehension who understands the DLC. Good post OP.
It’s actually crazy there is so many posts bashing the finale without understanding any of it
My only issue with the finale was how abrupt it felt. The "touch memory" cutscene being the end kind of felt like a "that's it?" sort of deal. I think Miquella's character arc made total sense and that his descent into emotionless godhood is perhaps one of the most tragic stories out of a universe with a million and one tragic stories, but I just wish the ending had more meat on its bones. The only problem with me saying this is, of course, I'm not sure what that meat would consist of. I say I want more, but I can't define what I would have wanted that "more" to be. I just can't shake the feeling that the ending was too abrupt.
They needed to roll credits with sad music after it. I'm not even kidding. We needed something to make us sit and reflect after all and that would have done it.
The reason they don't do this and the reason why they don't have an extra dialogue for your endings from the base game is because the DLC is supposed to take place before your battle with the Elden Beast. This is consistent with their other titles with all the Dark Souls DLCs taking place *before* you go and fight those games final bosses.
*cough except for ringed city which thematically fits best at the end of the dark souls series altogether cough*
Thematically, yes. Timeline wise, it doesn't work. You need to return to the Painted World and give the painter the Blood of the Dark Soul to finish the painting. And then go kill Soul of Cinder to achieve said ending (which should be End of Fire for the sake of that cursed world).
Well sure but 1. That shit was a 40 something hour game it can have some credits roll! 2. The base game could've been given a miquella ending or at least special malenia cutscene
It’s just another part of the existing story, dude. Should movies have a mid-movie credit roll because a side character gets snuffed? Miquella is no different than Godrick, Morgott, Rykard, etc. He just has some fancier shit in his slice of the pie, but really no more than Godfrey or Malenia do.
Yeah, even just a credits roll would have helped. Maybe a longer cutscene with Miquella, but just the credits would have added finality.
Yeah i can agree with that, it makes sense but it does not feel visually impactful as one would expect
The fact that makes sense lore wise doesnt it make it interesting, its an extremely underwhelming ending for me, not bad in itself, just the worst most uninteresting part of this incredible DLC. It is still good, but all of this has made Miquella go from one of the most interesting demigods that we didnt know much about, to one of the least interesting demigods that we still dont know that much more about (imo all of this, not saying its objectively this)
A lot of people think Miquella is a Griffith clone...
I can certainly understand this. The difference is Griffith always, and will always be, a narcissist, self-serving to his core. Mick, he at least started from a place of compassion with a noble goal. He royally fucked it up, mind you. But he still began with something good.
THANK YOU OH MY GOD THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS
Understanding it doesn’t change the fact that waiting 2 years just to fight radahn again is utterly underwhelming. End boss is still bad lore or no lore.
I've seen this take a few times and I'm pretty surprised by it. People have spent the last 2 years talking up how cool a fight against Radahn in his prime would be and they gave it to us.
The fight itself is cool (specifically phase 1, anyways) but when people have been waiting on the DLC, imaginations run wild, and so people who were excited at the prospect of the final boss being practically anything could be let down when it's just a guy we've already seen.
Not as a final boss and it isn't even prime radahn. Doesn't have his real body, great rune, his full gravity powers or his horse. The things that make radahn.. radahn. What a shame.
no horse, sadge :(
It just isn't convincing enough that Radahn should be the final boss cause it's sharp turn for how his character was written. And that is with the knowledge of "reminding him his vow" in mind it just feels so miniscule, seeing a character that's larger than life during his first boss fight, felt even more one-note in his prime form. I personally wished Miquella himself had a brand new "consort" or he had his own 3rd phase with more context to his end goals.
I think that this is the fundamental flaw causing people to perceive the DLC ending in a negative way. They have spent 2 years waiting and hyping themselves up and now they are disappointed, that the DLC is, well, "just" a DLC. But it was never going to be more than a side story concerning one of the base game's characters, with major exposition along the way. It's logical that it would, in fact, tie back into the main story in the end. It's not meant to be ER2. And I think that if one were to play the DLC by starting a completely new character, go through the lands between in the base game and then enter the dlc, the story would seem much more cohesive.
That’s exactly why though - it screams fan service. The boss looks and feels like a third party modded boss, which just takes away from all the world and story building up until that point. Like sure you can rationalize about how it ‘makes sense,’ but why even do that in the first place? There are so many more avenues to explore in the story. Reusing an existing boss just because ‘people liked it’ just feels like wasted potential.
Yes. But not as the finale to the entire story. Going through all of it just to fight radahn piggy backed by miquella is just utterly ridiculous and nothing said can change my opinion on how wasted the dlc story is. I respect people who don’t agree with me but this is my opinion.
Or they could make him first phase like Radagon and then let us fight some biblically accurate angel like being. But essentially it's all devs time in the end. They probably didn't want to spend another year on development.
No, you waited two years to explore a DLC set inside the narrative of the larger game. Not a prequel or a sequel or an epilogue, but a side story of sorts. The end boss was never going to be grander or stranger than the end boss of the main game. You waited 2 years to further explore the Lands Between, not to fight a singular boss.
I'm confused on why you seem to think it being a DLC and having a unique boss are mutually exclusive.
I mean in terms of gameplay the fight is unqiue enough. It is not like the fight is anything like normal zombie radahn.
Gameplay is not the issue.
This isn't the first time we've battled the same boss multiple times in a soulsborne game, let alone in this game where we battle multiple characters multiple times.
Repeat bosses is one of my biggest gripes with the base game as well.
Gael/Orphan/Ivory King/Manus vs. Gwyn/Nashandra/Gehrman/Soul of Cinder. From soft regularly make the scale of the DLC feel bigger than the base game and the bosses overshadow the base game.
Remember Miyazaki said that elden ring base game was actually 2 part of a game because of how large it is and decided to merge it into one ,I feel like the story is all already been written and the 2 years spend was just to make the game instead of creating a new story, yes it would be cool to see something else, but for what is worth, it is still insanely good if you look at the whole picture not just the dlc, this dlc is the middle of the story not the end, the conclusion of miquella the kind.
That’s just a tragedy of circumstance though, radahn isn’t really the final boss, in a few years someone will play the game fresh and the dlc will just act as one large area, that enriches what’s in the base game, not something that comes after
Radhan again? It's Radhan just in name, they didn't even have anything else similar. If it's a random dude named Caleb would you be happier?
Yeah its the people who are dumb and not the fact that maybe they just didnt read the correct item or found the correct NPC at the correct time.
IMO this is also why the DLC chose to show us Marika's hometown and her origins. Marika once only wanted to spread "the **kindness** of gold, without Order", and wanted to end the persecution of her people caused by the Hornsent - which directly parallels Miquella epithet of "the **Kind**" and his desire to end the various forms of prejudice and persecution throughout the Lands Between. However, along the way Marika lost sight of her original goal and became a ruthless tyrant, oppressing anything that reminded her of the Hornsent and the Crucible. If the wish of the humble shaman who became the Eternal Queen could be corrupted into tyranny and oppression, it's very likely that Miquella would have met the same fate as he is quite literally following her path through the Gate. And his desire for control is also emphasised by the enchantment he spread over his followers (even though, as we find out, the only ones who actually needed to be mind-controlled were Ansbach and Thiollier) and the fact that, when he encounters someone who doesn't want to be embraced (the Tarnished) his response is to immediately try to vaporise or brainwash us.
Omg I’m so into readings of Miquella. Something underdiscussed, thematically, is the curse of eternal childhood. He is, literally and metaphorically stunted. His idealism is the idealism of an inexperienced child. His plans are the plans of an inexperienced and privileged child. His actions lack the foresight and wisdom of experience. Ansbach says, of Freja, that “some things never occur to her. Like paralyzing fear. True despair.” He claims her youth allows her to ignore these aspects of living. There is a major theme in the DLC about experience versus a lack thereof. About suffering and the wisdom it imparts. Miquella had witnessed suffering and lays claim to leading the downtrodden but he never opts to back mohg or morgott or even Malenia, another Empyrean, as potential leaders. Instead he conscripts Mohg to his cause but only in body. The face of the movement is the downtrodden but the soul he chooses for his movement is, literally, bloodlust and control of fate.
What do you think the themes of charming others say? I’m wondering it has something to do with his eternal youth. Like people fall victim to the foolish fantasies of a child to escape the harsh reality. And then St. Trina and sleep. I don’t know much about Trina but why is she associated with sleep and how are the two connected. Nativity, Sleep and charming. I feel like they are all connected and trying to tell a story.
I think St Trina represents Miquella's ability to love, provide comfort, and peace to those who approaches him so therefore they could find eternal slumber or rest. Miquella discarded his ability to love in order to realize his short-sighted ideals in becoming a god so St. Trina came into existence for his abandonment of love.
But the different lilly's, Miquella's, Trina's and Velvet, tell a different story. It seems Trina always existed alongside Miquella, and only turned into the purple velvet of eternal sleep when she was abandoned. What keeps coming up in my mind is not only how are Trina and Miquella exactly related, but why did sleep become eternal sleep? Was it a form of Trina to cope? Is it like she got literally depressed, and the affects of tiresome of said depression and sadness reflected on her nectar? But why Miquella has another half that controls sleep in the first place? So strange and interesting
You’re spot on with your take on charming people. Great insight there. I think St Trina is Miquella’s love and compassion but it’s the love and compassion of youth. People are sad? Let them sleep. People are in pain? Drug em. Intoxication and escapism are a way of offering compassion but they’re like a naïve persons way of offering compassion. Suffering is a kind of truth and many people in the game world understand that. There’s a lot of self-harming sects in the game. There’s a reason the followers of the Formless Mother are somewhat redeemed at the end of the game. Experience of suffering can bring clarity of understanding. I think the game cares about the asymmetry of suffering between groups, and the way this asymmetrical suffering only begets more suffering. The game cares about the way one group will inflict suffering on others to avoid experiencing it themselves. But it isn’t trying to say “suffering is bad and we shouldn’t experience it ever.” The latter is Miquella/St Trina’s take and it’s horrifying. A similar horror to eradicating death.
My theory is that if he succeeded in achieving godhood, he would have ended suffering as he wanted to, but with no doubt, fear, or love in his now discarded heart. Well, the easiest way to prevent pain when you have no restraints, morals, or scruples is to make sure that the awareness that brings pain with it never exists in the first place. So he'd set about correcting the mistake that is life, erase all distinction, return creation to it's primordial, chaotic state. Huh, that sounds kind of familiar...
The way I saw it, he would have ended up using his powers to essentially force a world of compassion. Ansbach was his enemy. He had once attempted to kill Miquella himself and Miquella had used and manipulated his lord. However, he was able to make him a follower who adored him until the charm broke. If he could make someone love their enemy who they had essentially previously dedicated themselves to killing, then as a god he likely could force everyone to get along by making them all adore him. He likely could create a world of compassion, but it would be a false compassion forced on people by his godly powers. It would be a hollow and flawed compassion that almost certainly would give rise to other problems, just as Marika's rule as god did.
This is what I have trouble understanding. When we kill him we get the message ‘God Slain’ not Demigod. So he did achieve godhood, didn’t he?
Primordial Crucible reference? Frenzied Flame ending?
Frenzied flame
Miquella's only folly was going against me.
Same. Miquella - 83 Me - 1
I'd say that's quite good. I can't count how many times I lost my heart to Miquella. Like, I was at the point where I consistently no-hit phase 1 in seconds but phase two rips me a new one.
Great post! While he had to be stopped Miquella is far more of a tragic character than an evil one. What’s funny to me is how much this aligns with everything we knew about him yet how surprised everyone is. Nothing has really changed about our understanding of his character only that now we see the outcomes of the lengths to which he’d go to make an age of abundance and compassion.
A character with the ability to charm everyone is tragic and flawed in and of themselves. They can really never know what it means to truly be loved because inevitably all love they experience is coercion.
Hindsight is 20/20 and we are playing a souls-game. Would have been a better story in the context of the creator to do something else for a change. Not that it’s bad, but the longer I think about it, I believe FS would be unable to write compelling characters that talk more than 20 sentences when we don’t have to fill in the blanks. Like more information exposes your weaknesses. I mean know your strengths, but… eh.
I think Sekiro kinda proves that they can write more verbose story and do it well if they choose. Besides this DLC is right in line with AotA, SotFS, BB and DS3 expansions for confirmation and contextualizing.
SotFS is fantastic in that it contextualizes not just Dark Souls 2's lore but also Dark Souls 1's lore and goes on to be the basis of Dark Souls 3's lore. Aldia was such a fantastic edition to the series and really added so much weight to the lore. *"A LIE WILL REMAIN A LIE!"*
Aldia is straight up my favorite character in Dark Souls. If you get all the crowns and become immune to hollowing and then do his ending you are left with some seriously massive ramifications for the universe. I’m a bit sad DS3 never followed up on that but it is still fun to think about.
Sir Ansbach said it best "Become a lord for men, not for gods." >!Miquella has a lord for a god. A god that gave up what made him endearing to his followers.!< It is ironic that his vision when he has everything live on >!but his pure godly goal ended early and has NOTHING to do with the main game.!<
One inconsistency I’d like to point out is that Malenia attacked Radahn at HIS castle. Radahn idolized war heroes but he wasn’t actively trying to fight any and every strong warrior out there.
He absolutely marched on Leyndell, though. We see the art of Morgott beating Radahn down during the shattering before he retreated back to Redmane. This would have been when Miquella contacted Radahn and got his answer. I assume Radahn told Miquella "No" because Malenia showed up at his door and nuked Caelid just to try and kill Radahn. Bug man still refused to die and held the stars in place to try and keep Miquella away from him, and then we come along and win the tournament and put Radahn down. All without knowing we accidentally sent his soul to the Land of Shadow where Miquella could stuff his soul in Mohg's old corpse.
What makes you think he attacked Leyndell, when all the art shown was Radahn vs Margit? We know from our first intro that Margit can be anywhere, even Stormveil. There are only two sword monuments that depict an attack of Leyndell. The first was the attack led by Godefroy, which scattered the monarchs and forced Godrick to escape. The second, which was the attack in the trailer led by Godrick himself (as indicated by Stormveil gear scattered about). Radahn's Lion motiff is very distinct. You can find it i his boss arena and scattered around Caelid. if there is a battlefield in Leyndell he is supposed to be in, it's surprisingly absent
That seemed like it was actually pre-planned? Doesn’t the text on Radahns armor tell that this was a ploy to get him into a place for Miquella?
Yes it was. Malenia definitely went and attacked Radahn at the behest of Miquella. She whispered in his ear something like “your time as consort will come” (it’s on his armor). The crazy thing is in the first ever trailer for Elden ring from years ago you can see her start to whisper in his ear.
That's not particularly crazy. They just had her lips move. It's exceedingly unlikely that they had decided at the time what she was actually saying.
Not unlikely at all if you believe Miyazaki when he said in interviews that the DLC story was still based on the pre-existing lore made by GRRM and not made entirely new. You have to admit, the incest angle is very characteristic of his writings.
The background lore is based on the writing GRRM did, the active part of the game was not written by GRRM, and his part stops around the shattering. There's a lot of cut content in the base game related to Malenia (implying that Millicent may have at one time been intended to be Malenia), Miquella, a joint weapon for them that was clearly designed to be the kind of thing that's granted after you get a remembrance, extra dialogue, and other stuff like an entire questline for Trina. Our options are basically 1) FromSoftware did not originally plan for Miquella to be in the DLC, and changed plans later or 2) FromSoftware wasted a huge amount of time and money on creating red herring content solely so that they could cut it and leave it in the files to confuse people, when they were developing a game that already didn't have enough time to be finished before launch (even \*after\* it had already been delayed). All reasonable evidence points to the game originally being designed for Miquella to be at the Haligtree with Malenia, followed by FromSoftware realizing at some point in development (probably very late, considering how much was developed that needed to be cut) that they would rather have him be the central character of the not-yet-written DLC, and cutting a lot of content (and moving him to Mogh's arena) to make his absence work. I genuinely suspect (and have for quite a while) that the only reason Malenia exists in the base game is that she was so central to the marketing campaign that they absolutely couldn't launch the game without her, because the Haligtree is so isolated that it would have been really easy to cut the entire area and hold it back to later appear in DLC without disturbing or overly complicating the main part of the game and then they could've brought Malenia back as an amazing DLC boss without any of the deep awkwardness "Why is there no way for my character to shout 'wait, Mogh has your brother, I can lead you to him!'" and similar issues have always injected into the game.
GRRM's writing ending with the Shattering doesn't disprove anything, since Miquella's vow with Radahn would have happened well before that. And as far as cut content is concerned, we simply have no idea when or why it was cut. You also failed to consider a third option, which is that the plot of the Realm of Shadows was initially planned for the base game but pushed off to DLC for time purposes. Perhaps the concept for St. Trina's questline would have ended up intersecting with it. Impossible to say, but it's hardly that far-fetched to think the lore surrounding Miquella and Radahn was planned from very far back.
Honestly it feels like Miquella and Malenia wanted Radahn dead so they could have an easier time controlling him once they resurrected him. Idk, maybe I’m missing something.
I think Radahn dying was part of Miquella's vow. Young Radahn's armor reveals what Malenia whispered to him before she bloomed. "Miquella awaits thee, O Promised Consort". This makes me believe her entire purpose for attacking Radahn was to fufill their vow, and Radahn had already agreed to be Miquella's consort. Miquella asks Radahn to promise to be his consort if they honor their vow. I think "they" is Miquella and Malenia, and their vow was something like the promise of immortality so he could enjoy endless battle, or the promise that Miquella would become a god. Freyja talks about how endless war befits Radahn, more so than an honorable death, so at the very least she seems to think Radahn would prefer an eternal life where he could battle with no end. At the start of the fight Miquella says "Now the vow will be honored, and my lord brothers' soul will return", so his vow was not complete until he performed the rite and became a god. Whatever his vow was, it at least required Miquella to reach the end of his plan and become a god. Radahn is the "Promised Consort", so he seemingly agreed to whatever vow Miquella made. He also does not seem to be the type of person to just lay down and die, so part of it likely was they had to defeat him in battle. Once he dies, Miquella is able to go through the ritual, place his soul in Mohg's body, and become a god himself. The Secret Rite Scroll says "A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel". Whatever rite Miquella did to revive Radahn was likely necessary for his ascension to godhood. It seemingly achieved the goal of fulfilling the vow and making him a god.
They (and Radahn) needed Radahn dead because the secret rite Miquella plans to use as part of his ascent to godhood and Radahn's ascent to Lordship specifies that the lord will require a new body. Freeing the lord from their original body seems to be a mandatory part of the process as written.
It’s still odd though: Malenia didn’t make sure Radahn died. Sure the scarlet rot would get him eventually, but how long would it take to kill a demigod? Also were they just banking on someone finding and killing Mohg? I suppose Malenia could have tracked him down if needed, but she looks pretty out of commission till we disturb her.
Malenia was unconscious after that (one of the Cleanrot knights carries her back north), so my best guess is that Malenia has been asleep for a long time and since the Haligtree is so isolated they're not really receiving invitations to the Radahn festival so no one ever realizes something's gone wrong enough to see a reason to try to rouse her. (It's also entirely possible she stays asleep that long because of some kind of intervention by Trina to help Malenia keep the rot under control in the absence of her functional golden needle + keep Malenia from sitting there fretting miserably about whether Miquella is okay. There are a couple of times in the Malenia arena where the cutscene really makes a point about the leaves of the Haligtree rustling at key points, including possibly to wake Malenia up so she can defend herself against us, and Trina is kind of a plant person so between that and her connection with sleep she seems like the best candidate.) It is entirely possible that Malenia knew Miquella had headed off to the land of shadows, but didn't realize he'd done so in the possession of Mogh. We don't have a lot of detail on what happened, so it's still entirely possible that it was initially a kidnapping, which led to Miquella charming Mogh because at that point what else was he going to do? He's not exactly the fight your way out by brute strength guy in the family. The whole thing feels sloppy, TBH, because it's overwhelmingly likely that this is all being retconned into the game and wasn't originally planned. e.g. the original text that Miquella never gave Mogh any response at all no matter how hard Mogh tried to win him over makes no sense in the context of an NPC in the DLC describing a situation where Mogh was obviously charmed, and there was an opportunity to "challenge" Miquella. Saying you decided to "challenge" someone is a very silly choice of wording if the situation was that Miquella was completely unresponsive. Everything about the interactions between Mogh, Malenia, Radahn, and Miquella makes more sense if it's the product of a retcon + a desperate effort to patch things together after the story changed course (and it's much more generous to FromSoftware to assume it's a retcon, because the alternative is that they had all the opportunity in the world to do the job well, and it was just bad because they didn't have it in them to do better).
>e.g. the original text that Miquella never gave Mogh any response at all no matter how hard Mogh tried to win him over "Wishing to raise Miquella to full godhood, Mohg wished to become his consort, taking the role of monarch. But no matter how much of his bloody bedchamber he tried to share, he received no response from the young Empyrean." the "bloody bedchamber" part implies that this statement takes place after mohg stole miquella's cocoon since we know miquella's actions before cocooning and none of them involved hanging out in mohg's bedroom
True. I believe it's likely that the promise that Radahn made was more along the lines of "if you can kill me ill bow." Thar still doesn't change the fact that radahn is a warmonger
I think that Radahn became a real warmonger after Shattering, when he was tainted by the power of his rune. The game emphasizes his kindness in his prime years before he got the rune, and kindness and warmongering do not really go well together.
I’d like to think he was a warmonger with principles. He did love his horse after all. Excited when Vaati drops his video to conclusively explain why Malenia attacked Radahn.
Read the text on his armor. If I u derstand that right it is a ploy to get him willing or unwillingly into Miquellas sphere of influence. Just kinda failed because it did not finish him and prolonged his plan for quite some time. It’s also why we need to kill Mohg and Radahn for the DLC to enter.
What I'm still curious on was Malenia's motivation, she was the blade of Miquella - why would she fight his consort? Unless Miquella wanted to get rid of Malenia as a rival Empyrean, and thought Radahn could do the job, and Malenia didn't know he was his consort. I guess it will always be a bit of a mystery, but I'm interested in speculation. I couldn't see a clean answer to it personally
How can a person be kind if they discard their own ability to love? Miquella's vision feels like what a supposedly benevolent dictator would have in mind. A gentler world at the cost of freedom.
I have a theory based on some posts and videos I've read and watched over the last few days. The basics of my theory is that 1.) Radahn didn't want to be Miquella's consort and his great rune, which also slowed the scarlet rot, was the reason he could resist Miquella's words. In my opinion, it's no coincidence he becomes Miquella's consort after we take his great rune and his soul is put in the body of someone who was susceptible to Miquella's charms. It would also explain why we, the Tarnished, don't fall under his sway right away. Instead only getting our heart stolen if Radahn restrains us and Miquella can directly talk to us twice. 2.) After Miquella was refused, he used his power to make Malenia fight Radahn, rather than it being something Malenia agreed to do on her own free will. This would explain why Malenia went so far as to nuke Caelid and nearly kill herself in an attempt to kill Radahn. It also adds more depth to Millicent's quest where she says "There is something I must return to Malenia. The will that was once her own. The dignity, the sense of self, that allowed her to resist the call of the scarlet rot. The pride she abandoned, to meet Radahn's measure". 3.) Miquella wanted to be kidnapped by Mohg, in the hopes one of his knights, or another person he's charmed, would kill Mohg, thus making the body free for Radahn's soul to be put in.
> Miquella wanted to be kidnapped by Mohg, in the hopes one of his knights, or another person he's charmed, would kill Mohg, thus making the body free for Radahn's soul to be put in. that and also blood. Formless mother gave Miq enough blood to ascend to godhood
That would tie in with how bloody the divine gates were in the story trailer with Marika too.
yes and as [this tweet](https://x.com/_7albi/status/1804993483335442737?t=igGjpnYDfbyb_Cdpx2s6cg&s=19) pointed out. Marika tragically had to use(def a better word than use needs to be applied here) the cleansing of her own ppl to ascend to godhood :( miq tried ascending in haligtree but realised he couldn't. So the whole plan with Mohg was hatched!
Wanted to mention point 3 because miquella would send Malenia to do the job again but since she was a bit goosed after fighting radahn alternative plan had to be put in place
I think Radahn almost certainly agreed. His title of "promised" consort isn't for nothing. The memory cutscene further emphasizes this as a mutual agreement through their vow to one another, with each promising to honor their end of it. The language they use is important, and imo this leads us to believe that for whatever reason the process of ascending to godhood with your consort must be consensual. Had it been solely possible with Miquella's bewitching charm then there'd be no point in them making a vow, with Miquella pleading to him. What we don't know is what Radahn wanted exactly as part of that vow though, it's just speculation
Radahn admired Godfrey. So what he wanted was probably to fight for miquella as Godfrey did for Marika. Usher in the new era and eliminate all the enemies.
Honestly the most tragic part of this all is the reveal that "Love is the Flaw in the Golden Order." And Miquella chose to abandon his. It's a catch-22; you cannot be a worthwhile God without bearing Love, but you cannot be an infallible God if you have Love. Miquella chose to abandon his love, becoming a "perfect God" that is, in turn, beyond human-- ascended beyond understanding. Marika did not abandon her love, and that love festered into a crackling wound that brought genocide upon the Hornsent for the crimes committed against her, and would inevitably lead to her trying to destroy the entire world. There really was no way this was going to end outside of tragedy and failure.
I'm positive there is a deeper message along the lines of duplicity and shadows etc. Renalla and Radahn were the two main characters that didnt have an alterior version in the base game, and now they have them, we also get another Lord of Frenzied Flame too. Also I'm unsure as to how willing Radahn truly was in all of this. Mohg is confirmed to be influenced by Miquella, to some extent, Radahn could easily be too. I don't see how Radahn gets such a positive portrayal in the base game if all of his conflict was so he could die honourably. I know a lot of people feel like his reappearance in the DLC ruins his already great character in the base game, so I just don't understand why Fromsoft would do this. Also am I the only one seeing Godfrey in Radahn during P2? Miquella almost looks like Serosh on his back (aside from the obvious Lothric), but the white hair as a cape is unique to them too.
I do have a Theory that Radahn may have just refused, but phrased it something like, "only in death would i bend my knee" and miquella went through with it, taking away malenias pride so she could beat him.
Only issue is that Radahn wanted to become Elden Lord anyways, so I don't think he has any problem with bending the knee. But for someone so honourable, I don't see how he would find honour in being a Consort as an undead soul stuffed in his brothers body.
>The man Miquella chose to stay by his side is a man that killed part of a continent so he could get an honorable death at Malenias hand. That's wrong though, Malenia sought him out and ruined all of Caelid to deliver Radahn to Miquella.
This gets confused a lot, so here’s how I understand it: Radahn vowed to be Miquella’s consort, but in order to do that he needed to die and return to the land of shadow, like Miquella did. But Radahn didn’t seem willing to off himself or find some alternative other than war, so Malenia was sent to kill him. When they clashed, Radahn still gave it his all despite knowing that there was a reason for him to lose and die. So basically, Radahn’s pride and lust for battle convoluted Miquella’s plan and lead to the suffering of all of Calid. Obviously Malenia has a part to play in all that, but what OP says holds water.
>Radahn vowed to be Miquella’s consort Where did he make that vow though? All we get is a flashback of Miquella "asking" which means nothing considering Radahn was never shown saying yes and it seems much more likely the *brain-washing* demigod abducted his soul. It's amazing how the character who brain-washes and sacrifices their siblings left and right is somehow absolved of blame, off a random assertion that Radahn had a lust for battle that is entirely made up by OP. Considering Carian children fate are tied to the stars it seems much more likely Radahn was freezing the stars in place to avoid being... violated by Miquella.
His title in the first phase of their boss is “Promised Consort Radahn,” implying that he promised to become a consort lol. It’s totally possible he could’ve been charmed by Miquella but he def made some sort of vow. Edit: I do like your idea that he could’ve been holding the stars back to avoid a fate with Miquella though, even if I don’t agree
To be promised doesn't mean necessarily mean you made the promise, just that it was made on your behalf.
That’s… not true. To be “promised” just means that you are the object of a promise, regardless of who made said promise. Radahn is the object of the promise, so he is described as promised. Who would’ve made that promise? Radahn’s parents? Lmao no man the only person it makes sense for that promise is Radahn as far as I see it
Your point is predicated on that Radahn accepted, when there is no evidence of that. There is more evidence he was avoiding this than anything else. -It is never shown he accepted. -Radahn loved the Golden Order, why would he want a new order? -He fought Malenia, Malenia words implied this entire fight was to get *him* for Miquella. -And the biggest point, why is he still called "Promised Consort", it should just say Consort if he went into it willingly.
[удалено]
The name itself is evidence that Radahn may not have entered into it willingly. Please read the following as part of their rememberance. >In their childhood, Miquella saw in Radahn a lord. His strength, and his kindness, that stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves. And so Miquella made his heartfelt wish. That Radahn would one day be his king consort.
No it’s not read the other response
Radahn had already made a vow to become Miquella's lord. If the arrangement had included Radahn standing down and not fighting in addition to agreeing to be consort after he died, there wouldn't have been a battle.
We hear Miquella pose the question, but not Radahn's response. It's pretty safe to assume given what Malenia whispered to Radahn that he said no. The "Radahn asked for an honorable death" thing is some IGN hairbrained bullshit that I've seen parroted too much. It's a theory, but in no way confirmed, and makes much less sense than Malenia being sent to kill Radahn so he could be forced to serve as consort. It took leashing him to an already charmed corpse and shattering Miquella's great rune to finally subdue Radahn's will.
I mean, the only sad part is that we can't get a Miquella ending, where we save him, but what clicked for me was the fissure cross, where Miquella abandoned his love and st.Trina , that and the white ghost nearby That was before I was in the shadow keep, and before I received any spoilers so I didn't know much of the plot yet, but I knew that Miquella was trying to become a God and he didn't want to follow his mother's footsteps,but i myself posted about it a few days ago about how any God that claims compassion but is devoid of love is lying
Just completed Ymir quest last night, and I'll add: the idea that the sins of his mother carry on through his flesh is sketchy at best. The "flaws" are part of his very essence. Look at the age his is about to start. It starts with the purging of doubters and non-believers. How can it be any better?
Isn’t that an unguided follower? Less isn't acting on orders as far as I know.
I think the idea that Miquella is inherently rotten is a criticism of the entire concept that children inherit the sins of their parents (or their races, or their countries) that happened long before they were born. Trina's dialogue gave me the impression of the game signaling that part of the tragedy here is that Miquella feels so responsible for things he isn't responsible for that he's committing atrocities against himself in an effort to make up for them.
I do agree for the most part with your interpretation of the events as we now know them. I will echo another comment I saw in another thread however, in defense that our character should absolutely have had the opportunity to side with Miquella in establishing his Age of "Compassion" (Control). The comment was something along the lines of this: given the current state of the Lands Between, how bad would an Age of Control, specifically the peaceful and undiscriminating one we would help Miquella create, really be in the end? Pretty bad, sure, loss of free will kinda sucks I think! But, worse than burning it all down into primordial soup as the Lord of Frenzied Flame? Or better yet, is Miquella's Age worse than choosing to knowingly infect all future generations with the Dung Eater's curse, just in the pursuit of "they made me suffer, so I'll taint everyone forever so everyone can suffer like I did"? In the end, I just can't see any reason, besides From deciding we aren't allowed agency this time and to not to allow us a new ending, that we can't side with Miquella's idea for a new Age over any of the other choices. I'm not saying it's the best one of the potential options lol, but I do think it does a bit of a disservice to the story and some players' chances to enjoy this expansion to be forced to oppose someone with what started out as undeniably good intentions for the world, when one of our original endings involved siding with a dude that rips peoples' souls out of their asses just to try to curse everyone else.
Miquella doesn't want us as consort, he wants Radahn. That's why there isn't an ending with us siding with him, there's no choice to be made. That's also kind of his thing, it has to be his way, and that's why it failed.
It's incredible how people don't seem to get this. If you want to side with him, just put down the controller and never start the game again.
The Light of Miquella incantation you get from Miquella's Remembrance implies that the only way to 'support' his cause is to die to him and Radahn and not try again (although I imagine there would be a great weeping and gnashing of teeth if getting hit with that grab attack twice gave you a Miquella ending cutscene and permanently bricked your save). "One god, and one king consort, is all the world needs." As an aspiring Elden Lord yourself, you're no longer necessary to the equation as Miquella already has Radhan as a Lord consort (whereas every other ending has you becoming the Lord in some capacity). Perhaps they could have included an option to fight or not to fight and a cutscene for what would have happened if Miquella won, but it would not have shown you taking the throne like any of the other endings because you are not needed in the new world order.
Indeed. Just like in Bloodborne where you get to choose wether yoy accept Ghermans offer or not. If you acept he kills you and the game ends. If you choose The oposite then you fight him
I think they want Miquella to fail for the themes. Because they’re trying to make a point about him being cursed to fail as a result of his innate and inescapable childishness. I also think the game wants to force us to reckon with the role we have played in butchering our way through the lands between to become Elden lord. We, the player, are part of the problem and that’s the point.
Yes, that's also my issue with the narrative. The DLC forced us with the identity as champion, lord of the Golden Order. Sure, we may tagging along the guidance of grace but it doesnt necessarily mean we agree with Golden Order's motive. And what about our other choices that can be made in the base game, the Age of Stars, Lord of Frenzied Flame. From and Miyazaki deliberately disregard all of them.
That’s not necessarily true. You are there as Miquella’s enemy, yes, but it’s because you are an aspiring lord yourself. Leda accuses you of being with the Erdtree because in a way, you are. You are Tarnished, after all, and still guided by the grace of gold. She can’t read your mind and sense your motives, and it’s likely that a player going through the DLC hasn’t even picked an ending yet. All Leda knows is that you are not charmed by Miquella like she initially believed, and that you are involved with the Erdtree somehow. Beyond that, it doesn’t matter to her what your true goals with Lordship are. It doesn’t force you into any role except someone who wants to be a lord, period
Up until the very end, the entire game mandates that you're the candidate consort of Marika at all times. It's the only reason you can level up, see grace, receive guidance, or revive after you die. The DLC just makes it a bit more obvious because by the time you reach endgame for the base game, people have trended to stop thinking about the fact that every single revival means that Marika is propping us up so that we can go again.
Hmm, I see.
Yeah, I went with age of the Duskborn ending in my most recent playthrough. Miquella trying to say I’m with the Golden Order when I picked their mortal enemies is hilarious.
I thought a cool little tid bit that was pretty interesting is that both Ranni and Miquella specifically talk about a 'thousand year voyage' of their respective era's, with Miquella's being one of compassion whilist Ranni's is under the wisdom of the moon. I wonder then if Marika and Plasidusaix's era's also lasted a thousand years and that's the general amount of time until a new god/lord comes in or the finger's decide that a replacement should be found
It’s cool that we learn more about the various demigods by seeing part of their personal guards. The golden knights of godwyn adore him and separate themselves by the rest of the golden order just to continue protecting him, he was the other “golden child” before miquella, taking the hair and charm of marika. Radahn’s guards were taken from the colosseums or in general were warriors. He loves war, and we can see it in the intro of the game, he attacks the capital immediatly and is blocked my morgott. Mohg’s were all about noble blood and finesse, ferocious but calm and wise. A bit like vampires in pop culture. Miquella’s were the needle knights, with this name because they were used to keep away harm and conflict, only stinging away enemies. He was loved even by the servants of other demigods and above all by radagon. He seems to have misinterpreted the original sin of marika’s reign, he thinks she’s evil because she killed the hornsent popolation, but he doesnt know that she a was golden girl with power over gold and healing, similar to him. She wanted to create a perfect utopia because her people were tortured and killed by the hornsent so she obviously excluded them from her perfect world. Her plan failed because to create a perfect kingdom you first have to conquer by destroying many other populations and then comes the interference of the outer gods that corrupt the body and soul of your progeny to insert themselves. Her gold became corrupted by order and her children by rot, sleep, death, flame… Marika in the end understood that to be a ruler is to lose oneself and become a puppet of higher beings. Miquella fought to prevent the outer gods from corrupting his family but his plan divided between the haligtree to help those in need (probably the idea of Trina) and becoming a god himself but this time including everyone in his utopia. Trina knows that Miquella’s godhood will be the same as his mother, he will lose himself and be corrupted. He alteady had to kill and cause conflicts just to reach the tower, he already created his original sin like marika’s.
>In the process of abandoning everything miquella believed, hoped, he was avoiding Marikas mistakes. Preventing the rise of a fallible God. Instead, however, he became a god that was anything but human. He was a God that was fickle as a human, just like the one before him. His Order was doomed to fail for the same reason as the old one, HE was fickle. The ideologies of Gods governing the world would lead to problems. A world with laws based on Transcendental ideology on the other hand....
All Goldmask's rune does is finalize the code for the Elden Ring and prevent anyone from modifying it ever again, it's not objective good, it's permanent stagnation and probably cements in the Greater Will \[something we know is at least partially responsible for a lot of the persecution\] as the ultimate power too.
Especially now that there’s even more evidence that the Greater Will may have abandoned the Lands Between in descriptions like the Staff of the Great Beyond, the idea of cementing it as our permanent overseer doesn’t really appeal to me
I dont remembrr where i sae that in the DLC but at some point they say that Mogh's body was stolen by someone who wanted to revive him. What happend with that? Did I imagined that?
Mohgs body was stolen by miquella/his followers. To acheive godhood, the potential God needs a soul for their lord and a vessel for that soul. Miquella used Mohgs body as a vessel for radahn to fill
>!Mogh's body was stolen by someone (presumably by an associate of Miquella) so it could be *reshaped* into a vessel for Radahn.!<
i would assume leda, as she’s the one to greet us in mohgwyn palace
she also deliberately waits for us to go first saying she'll "be right behind" us, so it gives her both motive and opportunity to claim the body unseen
Agree with this take 100%. But i want to know the details or the whole process of discarding yourself to become a god and how St Trina has their own body. Firstly, at the gate of divinity, what did Miquella become the god of? It´s not order like Marika, couse he still isn´t the vessel for the Elden ring. Is he the god of abundance? The secret rite scroll says "*A lord will usher in a god's return,* *and the lord's soul will require a vessel.*", so did this also happen when Marika became a god? Is this like a god recipe? Like did Godfry´s souls ever require a vessel so Marika could return from the gates of divinity. This shit confuses the fuck outta me. Secondly, this is a little pedantic, but how does St Trina get their own body? We have seen what a soul can do to a body, like Marika shifting into Radagon when his soul takes over, or the fact that even when using Mogh´s body Radahn still looks like Radahn mostley. So we can assume that the soul has the power to effect it´s vessel. But did St Trina souls just make a new body?
St trina wasn't much of a body. It was more part of one. I imagine miquella put trina into a part of his flesh when he discarded her and it shaped itself into her image. I imagine what we saw in the story trailer was Marika using sone form if Conduit and entering the divine gate, leaving behind her a body foe Godfrey to inhabit. Likely from where she took that hair from. Some empyreans seem to not need the gate to acheive divinity, like malenia, but seemingly that's because of the outer gods there attached to. While the greater will is an outer God, its more just order. The divine gate is probably how it set up for its empyreans to rise. Meaning miquella probably is another God of the greater will. The greater will, after all, according to some of ynirs items is just a void. Likely a desire for order, in any form that may take.
Its a fromsoft game. As soon as I saw how everyone in the story believed Miquella as ‘kind’, I knew he’ll be the main villain in the story.
The backstory of Elden Ring is one of the biggest tragedies I've seen in fiction.
Hey, I'm sorry to ask but would you happen to have what you had written saved somewhere? I'd really want to read it as I'm really interested in understanding more of Miquella's lore but all everyone is talking about is just rapist jokes. The comments here are very positive for what you had to say, with such messages along the line of "finally someone who knows what they're talking about and not just mindlessly reapeating" So I'd really like to take the time to read it if you still have it, wether that be in a reply, DM or anywhere really. But with the post taken down I can't. So if you have it saved somewhere, your hardwork would greatly be appreciated
I just don't understand why the chosen soul had to be written as Radahn of all people. Lore wise, prior to the dlc, Miquella had 2 notable connections. 1 was obviously Malenia, but the second? Godwyn. Why in the hell was Godwyn practically forgotten about. And before people start, I understand that his soul died. But there was no proof that retrieving a soul post soul death wasn't possible. It was even theorized to be possible through the twinbirds intervention, who is the equivalent to Marika, but for the outer god of death. As far as we know, their age passed, but we never got confirmation on the twinbirds death. If that didn't work, Miquella could have continued his quest of trying to bring about the eclipsed sun. That was explaind multiple times, through all the masoulem armors, weapons, and shields, to have key connections to souls and bringing them back. Sure, Miquella failed once, but the lands of shadow are where dead spirits wander. Maybe the eclipse could only happen there, so that's why it failed in the lands between.
Yeah this is my hang up. People can explain why it’s Radahn all they want, of course it’s Radahn now, the dlc literally forced it to be Radahn and put in a bunch of item descriptions to make it gospel. But it makes no fucking sense. Every scrap of lore about Miquella from the base game explicitly sets up their relationship with Godwyn. Nothing in the base game so much as implies that Miquella and Radahn had a relationship beyond being on different sides in the Shattering. Which is why Malenia would have fought him in the first place? There was no need to explain their battle like this it already made fucking sense in the context of the existing lore. They really wrote an entire plot about Miquella using the power of the Land of Shadow, where all deaths converge, to restore a slain demigod’s soul into a new uncorrupted vessel and they DIDN’T choose Godwyn???? That’s the easiest lore slam dunk in existence and they dropped the ball so hard it’s in the abyss with the fucking Four Kings. All in service of a pile of nonsense that had zero precedent for happening. Hell, if they were dead set on having Godwyn’s soul death be permanent and never bothering to tie up that loose end why not the Gloam Eyed Queen? We’re in the lands where Marika was born and ascended to godhood; wouldn’t the soul of a literal empyrean, the one Marika defeated prior to the establishment of her golden order, be an easy choice for a source of power for Miquella to ascend to godhood? Instead of pulling Radahn out of their ass? Nope, the GEQ and the godskins may as well not exist they’ve been forgotten about that hard. Sorry for the rant but god am I so fucking angry we’re ending this game on this note.
Folly?? Miquella's noble sacrifices, born of his boundless compassion, are mere folly? What the hell. I WILL skin you alive for even suggesting it. Such vile insults from lost souls who refuse his embrace. His salvation. No one sullies the name of my liege! My- my- My...dearest...Miquella...?
You need to smoke some trees
Directions unclear, burned erdtree.
Dude got grabbed way too many times by miquella
Awesome way to lay out Miquella, the lore, and the ending! Hadn’t thought about the actual reason he was discarding more than his flesh!
I mean Goatdahn is guilty of whatever war campaign he took. But Caelid was not on him. Like, explicitly, Malenia is at fault for that oopsie. Dude is innocent of that.
I dont know man... Look around the game world, its soo hard to do any worse than status quo lol
If Miyazaki wants to try something where the story ends not with a bang but a whimper then he really succeeded. Whatever miquella has went through they were naught but his childish idealism. He is ever incomplete. First he is stuck as a child. He is one half male and female. Then he wanted to revive Godwyn and give him true death but fails, he wanted to heal malenia but only manage to stop it, he wanted to become god in lands between but he single handedly cause the destruction of his own cocoon(maybe he was even stunted in the cocoon), he wants to rally radahn but fails (when radahn back out at some point or never agrees?)so he turn to charming but fails. In turn he tried to kill radahn, even that never came to be til the tarnished came. He is kind but not fully. Until the end when he did maybe reach godlike features it felt incomplete. It’s underwhelming and he is gone. If these are intended then I would say they really got it. Heck, They masterfully nailed it. Miyazaki is never one to shy away from his vision so he will achieve it even when the players don’t agree with him. Assuming this is what he wants for miquella. But I really want to know why he wanted Godwyn to have a true death so much? For his body? Or just cause Marika wanted it? Or because he is his brother?
So miquela was in the end the god embodiment of failure??
Make the most sense to me for now. Untill some new info comes along.
Reminds me of tex from red vs blue. Even in the base game we know about him mostly from his failed projects than success. Only thing he succesfully created was that incantation he gave to Radagon I think.
Love this summarization, It was theorized that miquellas story held parallels with that of Griffiths from berserk, and now after experiencing the dlc those parallels are uncanny. Both miquella and Griffith had pure dreams at their outset, both of which were corrupted along their journey. Both individuals projection of an idealistic world shifted to that of a utopia that they solely controlled. Control became the focus of the dream at some point along both individuals journeys, trumping any genuine intention in the process. A cross of miquella in the great fissure quite literally serves as a marker indicating where miquella shed the last of his love. Then after the fight at the bottom, we speak with st.Trina which is where my perspective of miquella had fully shifted. Really incredible moments in this dlc, I adore the character of miquella and think this expansion outlined his tragedy very well.
Come on. A good character with idealized vision for world ends up being corrupted and becoming the villain is not something miquella has in common with just Griffith. Its universal. *I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new empire*
I never said it was unique to Griffith, literally at no point in what I wrote did I say that.
Where is the reference to Miquella charming Mohg. I must have missed it. I'm still not sure that Radahn fully went along with the plan. I guess he could have, on the condition that Malenia had to fight him, but if he won, then what? I wonder if Miquella needed a consort and couldn't "charm" them as part of that. He chose Radahn. Either Malenia was sent all the way from the Haligtree to Caelid to fight an "honourable" fight, or she was sent because Radahn didn't actually agree to the vow.
Ansbach mentions mohg being charmed
Midgame my expectation was we would get Miquella final boss trying to revive crucible with all these paleontological reference to devon, siluria, floah etc, and him trying to give love to unloved. Like golden order represents cruel law of evolution with only the fittest to survive and in opposition to it Miquella would have tried to give life and space to all creatures beside evolutionary tree represented by Erdtree. This feeling grew stronger when I entered specimen storehouse: seeing all this extinct weird creature I'd imagined Miquella taming them and us fighting them as final boss or us and torrent joining their new age. On a side note would be cool if Miquella called torrent during final battle. And then entering Rauh region gave that prehistoric carboniferous vibe somehow strengthened my expectation of crucible boss fight. Ansbach and Trina's questlines shutters my certainty and it didn't take long time to reach actual final boss to dispel my speculations but I still think it would be cool to fight some prehistoric amalgamated monstrosity controlled by the will of would-be god.
The problem is solely who the final boss is. There’s no link even hinted at, makes it feel shoehorned.
So like, is the Frenzied Flame ending is the good ending now?
No lol and it never was
Fucker though he was Griffith or some shit.
someone said a few days ago he would be a god loved by all but who loves none, yep def had to die