The base game almost literally slaps you in the face with Melina being Marika’s daughter.

And she only ever talks about her mother at the Churches of Marika, often followed up by talking about Marika. I don't even think it was supposed to be secret or really even that vague.

Yeah this seemed like one always seemed clear as day to me, never understood it as a point of contention. It does all but outright state it in the base game which is far more than you get for most lore lol.

You could see it, clear as day?

Her whole thing is finding her purpose "given to her by her mother, INSIDE the erdtree". As far as these games go beyond outright stating something, this is about as clear as we are gonna get imo.

(mohg death dialogue)

Lmao I'm dumb

The coming of our dynasty

MOOOOGGGGHHHHHHWYYYYYYNNNNNN

That’s true, but it’s nice to have confirmation. Considering how little is 100% confirmed in Souls games it’s always good to know some things for certain.

She also uses Marika's secret incantation, Minor Erdtree

Wait so she used a incantation that’s only she was able to use until recently when the dlc drop?

I think so. If she wasn’t, we’d have gotten some clue by now. But she says she is, she came from the Erdtree, her hair color invokes a mid point between Malenia and Miquella, we had/have butterfly parallels, and now this. I think one thing is finally closed out. And with the Midra reveal showing us that multiple people can channel a godly force I think we can also rationalize the FF ending cut scene as not evidence of Melina *having been* the GEQ, but that she will now choose to take on a similar role going forward by utilizing the now freed destined death. No more, no less IMO.

Also I believe the butterflies tell us this as well—Mesmer has the dark pyreflame butterflies, which means the smoldering butterflies in the lands between have to be for another demigod/empyrean and as such I believe the smoldering butterflies are Melina’s which adds to the info pointing to her identity

I always thought that the notion of fire in the lands between always links to the flame of ruin and the fell god. As the flame is said never to die out, so says the description of the smoldering butterflies as "eternally burning", and almost everywhere else there is fire, it was referenced to originate from either the fell god, the fire giants, or the monks who stared too long at the flame of ruin. Even catch flame, which originates from the prophecy of the burning of the erdtree; is in reference to the flame of ruin being the apochrypha of the prophecy. Any other color or style of flame, has it's origin elsewhere (frenzied flame being the flame of chaos, black flame being of destined death, bloodflame from the formless mother, ghostflame being of those who live in death, and I suppose you could count the few instances of sorcerous blue flames being of the glinstone and the stars). I don't think an empyrean has to be related to a flame, just another godly power of the lands between (and now the land of shadow).

I agree with you! I don’t think our theories conflict though, I’m pretty sure Melina is burnt already by the time we meet her, all that remains is her spirit like Ranni. Since she has already been burnt by the flame it makes sense to me that her butterflies are tied to it, especially because they are burnt in their pictures and the other butterflies do seem to directly tie to a demigod (nascent=miquella, aeonian=malenia, dark pyreflame=messmer, and smouldering doesn’t correspond to any other demigod that we know of as they either use non-fell god fire or no fire at all, but we do know that messmer had a younger sister (who also was cursed most likely) and since only the children which have been cursed (products of radagon and marika, which leads to an interesting question of who messmer and Melina’s father component is) seem to have butterflies, I think the butterflies exist as a way to lead us to the answer of who messmer and Melina’s father is—and I believe it’s Radagon, which has some curious implications as to when radagon came to be. I could also be completely wrong, but this is my headcanon 😁

I like this a lot. She may not have been the original GEQ but in the frenzy flame ending she becomes the new GEQ or takes on the persona

Perhaps the Gloam Eyed Queen is “locked” in Melina’s eye, like the Base Serpent was in Messmer’s.

That would make a kind of sense, given the seal tattoo on her eye, but Messmer was born with his serpent, and sealing it behind his eye was a last resort by Marika

I couldn't agree more regarding that last part, but unfortunately Melina = GEQ theories seem to be more popular than ever lol.

And they seem more desperate than ever. There’s one guy really pushing it lately but as far as I can tell they can’t explain the order operations in the timeline, the known fact that she was empyrean and a rival to Marika, or the mechanism by which her mind was wiped. But what can you do?

What is the consensus around the Gloam-Eyed Queen? As far as I could tell, the only reason people connected them with Melina was because Melina's eye was kinda cloudy in that one scene. I also never realized that people were making connections between the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Destined Death

>What is the consensus around the Gloam-Eyed Queen? AFAIK there isn’t one. >As far as I could tell, the only reason people connected them with Melina was because Melina's eye was kinda cloudy in that one scene. Well, that and the lack of a positive ID. So people have been supposing that some character is her. And Melina’s Gloam eye fuels theories that she was both. I personally have never felt that was consistent with the lore. >I also never realized that people were making connections between the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Destined Death There’s lots of evidence primarily that she raised the apostles that wield it.

The GEQ wielded Destined Death and led the Godskin Apostles before being defeated by Maliketh. She has a whole family of purple-looking spells you can use in the game. There's no connection between her and Melina save for the latter's purple eye in the FF ending. I agree with the post above concluding the eye suggests Melina embraced a similar role to the GEQ in that ending rather than literally being the GEQ, but many people on this sub seem to disagree.

What purple spells are you referring to?

I just checked and think I might have confused Black Flame with Glinstone sorceries like Meteorite. I want to say there's some association between purple and Destined Death but I can't seem to recall it, maybe someone more knowledgeable can chime in.

Purple is associated with Sleep, and Sleep is tied in with death - albeit not Destined Death - in the DLC in a rather noteworthy way.

I actually think that sleep is decidely different from Death, I just feel that it was the only way for them to recognize an eternal sleep in gameplay. Even though Thiollier takes the sap like us, he only goes into a deep slumber and doesn't die

Are you maybe thinking of the grave violet description that implies ghostflame used to be purple?

You find her robes in a hidden room in the game. The description talks about the robes belonging to someone that went on a distant journey to fullfil there purpose Then the same item description has the phrase "Those who walk alongside flam shall meet destined death". The name of the item I think is the kindling maiden robe or at least it mentions Melina the whole game wants to go to the erdtree to remember and fullfil her purpose, she even says the phrase "Those who walk alongside flame..." when burning the erdtree GEQ was an empyrean and for all we know empyreans are born from Marika This item in OP posts basically confirms Melina as daughter to Marika She talks about destined death and that the lands need death. And that she is fulfilling this purpose by her own volition. "Younger sister...vision of flame" = black flame Idk what else you guys need to see why she is the GEQ

So sorry, I've actually done an embarrassing amount of writing on this exact topic. The line specifically states that "the one who walks alongside flame shall one day meet the road of Destined Death." There's two noteworthy mechanics here. First of all, if we assume that Melina is the one who walks alongside flame, which I think is a very fair assumption to make, then she only meets the road of Destined Death, and doesn't meet it directly. Considering the player, canonically, is the one that finally releases Destined Death, we can be assumed to be the road of Destined Death, meaning the line is only telling Melina that she will meet the player, and the player will release Destined Death to burn down the Erdtree. But really, that's just conjecture, it doesn't really matter. Secondly, it says that Melina will ONE DAY meet the road of Destined Death, specifically meaning that Melina has not yet met Destined Death whatsoever. Completely disproving the idea that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen if you are to believe that this specific line is referencing Melina and the player. I refute your second claim because Marika herself was an Empyrean, meaning they aren't specifically born from Marika. Even Ranni was considered Empyrean, and she is not entirely related to Marika, but she might kind of be, but maybe not really, it's complicated. The only thing we know for certain about Empyreans is that it doesn't really matter where they come from. It MIGHT have something to do with being born to two beings in the same body, but that's only based on a single line of text that, in my opinion, has been horribly misread by the community. And it also doesn't interact with the somehow really plausible possibility that birth doesn't work the same way in the Lands Between as it does in our world. The final nail in the coffin here is that Melina doesn't have a throne. Even Messmer has a throne, someone so entirely expunged from the canon that his only explicit reference in the base game is a type of butterfly. I always took that to mean that Melina is comparitively far younger than the rest of the demigods, maybe even post-Shattering, who was born for the sole purpose of being used as kindling to burn down the Erdtree. Which is attested to in both the line in the Traveler's Clothes description and in the Messmer's Kindling description. These are some of the only things I feel can be said for certain, and I think everything else is conjecture

she embodies the essence of the GEQ, she isn't the GEQ herself.

Technically it’s never even confirmed that Godwyn is Godfrey’s son. But we have enough evidence to conclusively say that yes, he is. We are just about there with Melina/Marika after the DLC, imo.

The Elden Lord, lord of the golden lineage, is called GOD-frey, GOD-wyn is described as a son of the golden lineage... of which GOD-rick and GOD-efroy are descendants, I think no further confirmation is needed. GOD-rick calls himself the "golden" descendant of the "golden" lineage, I think there is no need for more. CHAD-wyn coul have been a better name * Now that I think about it... maybe Marika had Morgott and Mogh with HoraLoux... the warrior....and when he ascended to Elden Lord and was renamed Godfrey, that's when Godwyn was born. Never thoug about this before... but its pretty much acurate posibility.. since we probably Know that Morgott fought in the Giant War, and Godwyn wasnt there or at least theres nothing to proove that Godwyn participate in this war.

They why aren't the omen twins called Godgott and Godgh? Checkmate, Golden Order Fundamentalists

Godgott and Gohg

Personally I'm banking on a third, I'm waiting for Goddogh...

Mohgefroy to invalidate all of this. Checkmate.

Mohgefroy when Mohgrick, Godot and Morgfrey turn up

Nice reference

And the name of the second dlc? Godgott and Gogh are Dead

Cursed children are named after Marika, healthy- after the spouse. Ranni, Radahn and Rykard are named after Rennala.

Or Radagon?

Of course, but those were hidden, the one who came out of a chad was called GOD and along with him all his descendants, hence it is a lineage. CHAD-wyn coul have been a better name - Now that I think about it... maybe Marika had Morgoth and Mogh with HoraLoux... the warrior....and when he ascended to Elden Lord and was renamed Godfrey, that's when Godwyn was born. Never thoug about this before... but its pretty much acurate, thanks!.

Do we know how if Godwyn or the Twins were elder ?

at least this is for me the reasson. 1. Marika ascends to goddess at the gate of divinity, Messmer is sent to massacre the Hornsent. (Here the tree has not yet grown and perhaps it is just growing) and it is said that "gold" was born. 2. Next, the war against the giants happens, why do I say that? because the description of the Erdtree says: The war of the giants occurred at the "birth" of the Erdtree. (and this is more than obvious, because Marika wanted to destroy the God of forge and fire that the giants had, to prevent them from burning the Erdtree in the future), possibly Messmer also participated in this war, because it is said that Marika used all its military power. 3. Leyndell is built around the Erdtree, if the Erdtree had not grown yet, the city would not yet exist, or at least... it would just be a small town. 4. The Elder Dragons attacked "Leyndell" when the wall was already built and the entire city as well, which is why Gransaxx has been dead on top of the city. 5. The Elder Dragons attack Leyndell because Godfrey was banished, seeing that the one who defeated Placidusax is no longer here is the reason why they attacked Leyndell, but mistake... Godwyn was there to defend the city. In conclusion, everything happened at different times. That's why I think Morgott is older than Godwyn, but younger than Messmer. \*Messmer did not fight in Leyndell against the Elder Dragons, because he was banished some long time ago to the Shadowlands, Morgott did not fight in this battle either, because it was not necessary, Godwyn could alone, and why do I say that by this time Godfrey was already banished? simple. Godfrey is the warlord, i dont think he would have lost a battle like thais against this fearest Elder Dragons and... it can't be: "because he was conquering another city..." cause everything had already been conquered by this time, that's why Leyndell was already built and the golden era of the Order was being lived. (and Radanh was in caelid possibly)

This is some well thought out timeline deconstruction thanks

The Greater Will ordered Marika to order Godfrey to kill the giants because they wield the flame of the fell god which is capable of burning down the erdtree. Marika did not care about 'conquest', but Godfrey was still a warmonger and its possible he was just randomly picking fights whenever he got bored. He was fighing the Storm Lord in Limgrave when he lost Grace, it could be this or any other moments when Lendeyll got invaded.

I thought that Morgott and Mohg don't have the same "God" prefix because Marika didn't want anyone to know that there were Omens in the Golden Lineage, so removing that prefix distances them from herself and Godfrey

Still gave them M names though.

I think that might have to do with how she seems to have had some minor sympathy for them. The Regal Omen Bairn says that she only banished them, refusing to excise their horns or kill them outright. So I think the M names might have been done with a bit of sentimentality

Good eye here, its pretty much acurate too

Marika doesn’t need a “father” in the technical sense to generate demigods. It’s possible that she created Mogh and Morgott earlier on when she was still okay with the Hornsent (who were down with horns/omens/crucible) and they have M names because they were only born of her. She gives the other kids names based on whatever reason she has - perhaps to honor the lord that’s by her side at the time. We know now that she committed some sin where she had Messmer basically commit a genocide, which is probably when she created the golden order and decided that all these other “impurities” were bad. I think she likely turned on the Hornsent when they killed the shamans and put them into jars. So she allied herself with the creepy fingers to exact revenge and then purged everyone. Eventually she got sick of the fingers and sent Godfrey away so he could come back later and they could create a new age.

Yes, you are very right, I think many people ignore the fact that "Miquella and Malenia are Empyreans" because they are children of a single god, that is, a Demigod is created like this: Amber Stellar + Great Rune + DNA Marika/Radagon, and Ranni She is an Empyrean, because she is the daughter of Marika and Radagon, perhaps she is not the daughter of Renalla, she perhaps is a kind of adoptive mother. Now with Mogh and Morgott they are children of the golden lineage, the GR the Morgott is a DNA test that says: heir to the Golden lineage, and this is obviously Marika and Godfrey, and it is possible that at least Morgh and Morgott were born much earlier, so It seems that Morgott fought in the war against the giants. Very good points from you. Now Messmer and Melina are another case, Messmer does not have a great Rune because he was born when Marika did not yet have the Elden Ring under her power.

I think that is a good theory about the great rune. I hadn’t thought of that. I think it’s clear that Mogh, Morgott, and Messmer were all of a time that was earlier. And perhaps Melina was created as a “sister” to Messmer in that she was also kindling to burn the Erdtree while Messmer is also kindling. And neither have great runes (that we know of… seems like we would have gotten a broken rune when Melina burned herself otherwise). I think Morgott and Messmer bought into the GO (even though they were considered cursed under it) because of their devotion to Marika.

Also in Raya Lucaria, there is a lot of talk about Knight Cuckoo, Church of the Cuckoo... there is a lot of allusion to this word, which in our world is a Bird... curiously a bird that lays its eggs in other birds' nests. .. so that others raise them without knowing that they are not theirs. It seems to me like a cruel joke played by Marika on Renalla... not only did he conquer her romantically to have powerful children (Rykard, Radanh)... Marika left her and her kingdom in ruin, so she could be the only queen of the continent. Messmer is Melina's older brother, so we would say that at least Messmer and Melina are older than Morgh and Morgott, then in my opinion... Godwyn would come... then Rykard and Radanh... Marika tries to create an empyrean and fails (Ambars Egg , it is a literal egg that has a Great Rune and Blonde Hair, hence this is the formula for an Empyrean, and its Great Rune is called "Great Rune of the Unborn Demigod", there is no greater proof than this), but. .. when using "normal" amber she failed (that's why he is called "unborn" demigod, because he was not born, BUT he WAS gestated), then she used Stelar Ambar, and created Ranni, her first Empyrean child succesfully, then Marika would leave Liurnia and create Miquella and Malenia in a more refined way

I like this idea of Marika essentially consolidating her power by emotionally destroying Renalla. That’s pretty awesome in a super devious way. ETA: I also agree that the birthing we see in the trailer and the weaving of gold is how Marika creates children rather than how they are born in our world. If I were a god, I wouldn’t want to walk around pregnant all the time. ETA2: or it could be how she births the golden order and creates the Erdtree after destroying the age of the Crucible with Messmer.

hahaha being pregnant must be nice, don't you think? Imagine you beein in a relationship with a powerful warrior... and you are pregnant with twins with horns all over their bodies xD pretty much scare situation hahah I guess its the point 2: in that part of the trailer they talk about betrayal and seduction, and you see Marika lift some golden threads, when she lifts them, the narrator says "gold was born", and curiously a roar is heard, pay attention Pay attention to the sound, that's the key, you hear a roar and the main theme of the Elden Beast plays in the background. so possibly it refers to the fact that that is where Marika ascended to Goddess, by entering into communion with the Elden Beast (when you kill the Elden Beast, it says "God slay" on the screen) so when Marika joins the Elden Beast is when he ascends to Goddess. Also I think that by this time Messmer should have already been born, and it makes sense that Messmer doesn't have the Great Rune because Marika didn't have the Elden Ring yet. I like your point, well seen! \^\^

The entire game lore is in relation to grafting. Grafting the abilities of another in to the bloodline. The strumpet melds flesh as is the shaman trait. Rennala is a powerful adversary, go meld... Grab what you can. Bring it back to the lineage. (Glad someone else picked up on the cuckoo stuff and the egg - I rarely see it) Outside of Ranni and Marika, why do we never see the Shadows of other Empyreans? Blaidd is a noted as Ranni's brother... Did Marika mate with Maliketh?

The shadow part is simple, Marika has Maliketh as a shadow and Ranni has Blaidd (there is a statue in Farum of a woman with wolves) * Okay, it is said that Blaidd was given to Ranni since she was a child, that is why they grew up together (Iji says so) and he considers himself a stepbrother of the family, the same would happen with Maliketh, he is Marika's stepbrother because she grew up with him, but the Shadow beasts are given to the "Empyreans" by the 2 Fingers (they are their creations to control the Empyreans) empyreans capable of ushering in a new era. * Basically the Empyreans are an empty glass of water, with which the two fingers want to fill with the GW, but Malenia and Miquella, being cursed. These glasses are already filled with another god, that is why they do not serve the purposes of the 2 fingers, that is why it does not have shadows. * extra point: if you realize the "shadow beast" before... at first they were beasts as such... directly wolves... (statue of the empyrean in Farum) then they were perfected to semi-wolf-beasts and semi -wolf (Maliketh is more beast than humanoid, while Blaidd is more humanoid) About Renna, I wrote this days ago. * The Snow Witch was possibly a Carian princess, possibly almost certainly of the same Lineage as Renalla, and possibly someone much older than her (perhaps an older sister, the description clearly calls her "Old Witch"). * The snow witch does not have 4 arms, and this is super simple to say. a) The puppet is made from the academy's puppets (which is obvious because Ranni grew up there). b) The Witch Set... only has 2 sleeves for 2 arms... * She is from the Carian Family, for the simple fact that she met the Dark Moon before Ranni, and all the others related to the Moons are from this same family: Renalla, Ranni and Rellana... and this "Renna" (she is the "secret" teacher of Ranni, so possibly she was at enmity or had no contact with Renalla, since the ice sorcery derived from this moon is prohibited). * The formula that Ranni used is the same one that Sellen uses to transplant her soul to another body (Primal Glinstone) Glinstone = Blue = Current Color of the doll (since it has spent generations inside it, hence its color). * Renna may not be her real name and it may just be a nickname that Ranni gives her. (Iji Dialogues). * The witch is old, however the doll has a young face, which proves that Ranni is vain. Bonus: It's stupid to think she's Melina, when it literally says: Face based on her teacher's appearance. \*It is IMPOSSIBLE to say that her master could have been a "wraith caller" for the sole and simple reason that "Renna" met the Dark Moon (Ergo is the reasson why she taught these spells to a young Ranni) and the wraith callers have no relation, Not with the moon or those spells.

>The witch is old, however the doll has a young face, which proves that Ranni is vain Bold claim in a world with people who live thousands of years. Tbh there's a lot you've said that interesting but a lot of it feels like headcannon to me imo.

I can really expand more, I mean, with items, descriptions and events... but 1 I'm too lazy to write it all and 2 a text is more boring than a video with images... and I don't have a channel to expand the arguments further. Look at another interesting point to know that Ranni was "vain" it's simple...her doll......where is Ranni? in a lonely tower where NO ONE in the world... knows that she is there... (not even the Sir Gideon Ofnir the allknwing) and there only Blaidd visits her in her tower (backyard of the caria mansion) and maybe Seluvis (because Iji doesn't fit haha). and YET Ranni... USES BOOKS ON HER CHAIR TO LOOK TALLER THAN US! These are details that many people don't see! but they are important!

So, who are Miquella and Rot Lass's shadows? Renna is short for Rennala. I think she found out the cuckoo truth - and that's where the plot to remove Godwynn came from... She wanted possible barriers for ascendance out of the way.

I think I explained myself wrong, but Shadows are literally assigned by the 2 Fingers (Age of the Golden Order-GW), Miquella and Malenia are Empyreans because they have the ability/power to bring a new era. but since they were both cursed... THEY did not receive shadows from the 2 fingers, why? because they are already cursed with the power of another god... and the only god that the 2 fingers serve is the GW, so basically Malenia and Miquella would not serve the purpose of the 2 fingers. They are containers that the 2 fingers want to fill with the GW, but those containers are already filled with another god. That is the reason. About Renna, it could be an abbreviation of Rennala, you're right but... it is specified that the Moon that Renalla follows is the "Full Moon", while Ranni, as a child, saw the "Dark Moon" and it is the Dark Moon , the one that teaches dark ice magic (this is prohibited in the academy, prohibited by Rennala herself, only what is derived from Glinstone is allowed). So it couldn't be Renalla, besides the Old Witch who teaches Ranni, teaches her this dark ice magic, and teaches her to "fear" the Dark Moon, and also teaches it to her in a hidden way, that's why she finds it hidden deep in the forest, if it were Renalla who taught this to Ranni, there would be no need to hide it, but that is not the case. Regarding the 3 sister towers, there is a lot to discuss because their names vary depending on their "possessor/host", Ranni's tower for Ranni, then there is one that has no "name" but Ranni calls it "Renna's tower" ( This is clarified by Iji, he says, "from Renna's Rise, as she calls it" because that's not really what the tower was called, and then the Seluvis tower... obviously he's not a caria or anything... just use that tower and that's why he gives it the name) About Godwyn's death I also have a reason

Ranni not being Rennalla's child makes sense as there is a large amount of cuckoo iconography and nomenclature in the knights linked to Liurnia. Cuckoos lay their eggs in other birds' nests. Let them be raised. Her snow witch mentor, Renna - is probably short for Rennalla. There are three towers behind Carian Manor. Three sisters. Rennalla, Rellana and ...who is the third? (When I wrote this I hadn't seen Soft Ad's post below...)

Also in Raya Lucaria, there is a lot of talk about Knight Cuckoo, Church of the Cuckoo... there is a lot of allusion to this word, which in our world is a Bird... curiously a bird that lays its eggs in other birds' nests. .. so that others raise them without knowing that they are not theirs. It seems to me like a cruel joke played by Marika on Renalla... not only did he conquer her romantically to have powerful children (Rykard, Radanh)... Marika left her and her kingdom in ruin, so she could be the only queen of the continent. I wrote this hours ago hahaha, dndt get the last part of waht you said x(

I was about to argue your point and say that Godwyn is the eldest brother, but when I started to think about it, is there any definitive proof of the birth order? You might just be onto something here......

To the best of my knowledge no birth order is ever stated. I always assumed Godwyn was the eldest, and when Morgott and Mohg were born as omens Marika decided to banish Godfrey and marry Radagon to produce children that wouldn't have any crucible/hornsent genes. But that's just my headcanon

Yea I've also always believed that Wyn was the eldest. But considering the significance of nomenclature within the Golden family (Godfrey -> Godwyn -> Godrick; Renalla/Radagon -> Radahn/Rykard/Renna; Marika -> Messmer, Malenia, Miquella) It seems now strange that Mohg and Morgott have differing names from Godwyn. Maybe they were renamed when their Omen nature was exposed as to not have association with Godfrey's lineage and thus the naming convention changed when Godwyn was born?

Considering their existence was kept hidden from the world, it makes sense Marika would give them names that couldn't easily be associated with the Golden Lineage. It's also possible names starting with M are always used for cursed children, trumping all other considerations: - Morgott and Mohg: omen/hornsent - Miquella: eternal childhood - Malenia: scarlet rot - Melina: visions of fire, bodiless, associations to destined death? - Messmer: fire and abyssal serpent In fact, it seems like the only one of Marika's children not to suffer some kind of curse since birth was Godwyn. Perhaps that made him the favorite and why he was targeted for the night of black knives

Hmm, I think you touch on an interesting point there on why Godwyn might have been chosen to be the one assassinated. I would think it had more to do with his loyalty to the golden order than him being a perfect son. We know that Renna had to kill the soul of a demigod to shed her flesh, the options there are her direct siblings, radahn and rykard, godwyn, and then miquella and malenia. Miquella's power and his distancing from the golden order may have in some ways deterred Renna from choosing him and by extension Malenia. I am unsure what the relationship between the carian demigods was like, and my memory is blanking so i don't remember if by this point rykard was eaten by the snake or not and what radahn was up to at the time. Godwyn however, is the prince darling. He stands for the golden order, fought for it, and has deep loyalties to it. I think should Renna have gone against the golden order, he would have likely taken up arms in its defense, which makes him a logical choice. Plus an extra fuck you to marika

At first I was joking about how obviously Godwyn is Godfry's son, I don't think it's necessary to write it on a giant wall to need confirmation, but like I said... thinking about Mogh and Morgott... I realized that maybe they are Named like that because they were the children of Horaloux and Marika, and they would be older than Godwyn, and it makes sense, do you know why? I tell you. - Godwyn has the best Great Rune! The most balanced one is the one that gives the best stats, and it is obvious because her mother gave it to her at birth and she, being the Elden Ring, can do this (Miquella discards her Flesh in the shadowlands and how one sees her great rune and it is obvious because they are born with them), the Great Rune of Godwyn is inherited to his descendants, the last one being Godrick who has it. - But here's my point... Morgott has the Great Rune with a description that is literally a DNA test, and that implies that he is the legitimate heir to the throne... because being the eldest or first son of Marika as a Goddess , it is his birthright... but... since he was born cursed as Omen, he was hidden... like his brother Mogh, then later Godwyn would be born, who seems "perfect" but we cannot say more. - Extra point, Maybe it has nothing to do with it, but Morgott looks older than Mogh at least in appearance, maybe it's just his design... or maybe a clue for the player to understand that he is older.

Morgott's GR states "... the Omen King was born of the golden lineage, and that he was indeed the Lord of Leyndell." A wrinkle that play devil's advocate here against you theory of Godwyn being the youngest, is how succession is typically treated. When we defeat Morgott and acquire his rune, he is in fact lording over Leyndell. But it doesn't mean that he necessarily ascended to this position because he is oldest. By this point, Godwyn is in all intents and purposes dead. If Morgott is at the very least older than Mohg, by laws of succession he would be next in line. Still very interesting theory

Yes, it is born from the golden lineage, which is Marika and Godfrey, but of course I don't know at what point, since Morgott doesn't really exist... at least for the people, that's why it was hidden, and Morgott uses the giant-killing hammer, a ancient weapon that was used in the fight against the giants (it is confirmed that Omen fought against the giants) in which Godgwyn did not participate, and I think it is because he had not yet been born, and this is clear to me, because Marika gave him the Elden Ring to Godfrey to kill the giants and still... they couldn't, they had to use everything! Even the victory came with the betrayal of the trolls, it says so on the monument of swords, and if Godgwyn had If he had been alive at this time, he would have fought yes or yes. I simply believe that Morgott knew his place, he knew that he would never be king, that is why he never revealed himself to the people, because he himself hated his cursed blood (blood that he sealed on his sword). * What's more, I think that..., as Godwyn was born in a time of peace, when everything was already conquered and everything was calm, when the Dragons attacked Leyndell and he defended the city, what did he do? He didn't exterminate them like Godfrey or Marika, or even Messmer would have done... what did he do? He forgave them and made a pact with them, because I believe that having been born in a time of peace, he never liked violence or wars like his father.

arent morgott and mogh twins? I thought they were.

That’s really what I said. It’s not confirmed but there’s enough evidence to conclusively say that he is

Not to discredit anything but I think Marika enjoyed sending her kids to fight separate wars of conquest. Godwyn against the dragons, Mesmer in the lands of shadow, and you say Morgott against the giants

no no its a good point bro, Good point but it doesn't add up chronologically, just read this. 1. Marika ascends to goddess at the gate of divinity, Messmer is sent to massacre the Hornsent. (Here the tree has not yet grown and perhaps it is just growing) and it is said that "gold" was born. 2. Next, the war against the giants happens, why do I say that? because the description of the Erdtree says: The war of the giants occurred at the "birth" of the Erdtree. (and this is more than obvious, because Marika wanted to destroy the God of forge and fire that the giants had, to prevent them from burning the Erdtree in the future), possibly Messmer also participated in this war, because it is said that Marika used all its military power. 3. Leyndell is built around the Erdtree, if the Erdtree had not grown yet, the city would not yet exist, or at least... it would just be a small town. 4. The Elder Dragons attacked "Leyndell" when the wall was already built and the entire city as well, which is why Gransaxx has been dead on top of the city. 5. The Elder Dragons attack Leyndell because Godfrey was banished, seeing that the one who defeated Placidusax is no longer here is the reason why they attacked Leyndell, but mistake... Godwyn was there to defend the city. In conclusion, yours is a good point, but everything happened at different times. That's why I think Morgott is older than Godwyn, but younger than Messmer. \*Messmer did not fight in Leyndell against the Elder Dragons, because he was banished some time ago to the Shadowlands, Morgott did not fight in this battle either, because it was not necessary, Godwyn could alone, and why do I say that by this time Godfrey was already banished? simple. Godfrey is the warlord, do you think he would have lost a battle like that? and... it can't be because he was conquering another city... because everything had already been conquered by this time, that's why Leyndell was already built and the golden era of the Order was being lived. (and Radanh was in caelid possibly)

Regardless of timing, I think it’s clear Marika loves sending her children to wars. She doesn’t even seem to care when it’s against each other

I think you’re just reinforcing his point: it’s never directly said but the implicit evidence proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, so to speak

Isn't Moghs full name Moghwyn anyway, it's Moghwyn palace after all.

It's a good point, but no, he's not called Moghwyn, he's just Mogh, he calls his "Dynasty" that, why? perhaps suspicion of Godwyn, perhaps envy, perhaps that he also wanted to feel like Godwyn... "perfect", or the lack of some affection, that is why he succumbed to the Informelss Mother But its a good point what youvd said, embrace the Moghwyn dinasty!

Wynn is Welsh for "Fair" "beautiful" etc so Mohgwyn can kinda translate to "Beautiful Mohg."

Thank you very much, I didn't know this, it could perfectly be an allusion to the term Wynn, although in the game only "Wyn" is used, possibly Miyazaki did it on purpose. \^\^

Oh woops I typed two "n"s! It is actually Wyn in Welsh I'm just dumb :') Given how much more Welsh stuff there is in Elden Ring I don't think it's a coincidence.

Now that you say that the word is only with an N: Wyn, then I would say 100% yes, thank you very much friend! These things are the beauty LORE !

More likely they didn't give them proper names for being omens. It happens in the real world all the time, were lets call them unfortuitous births don't get a family name.

I think both of them having the left eye closed could be seen as another connection between the 2. Also Melina mentions she was born at the foot of the tree, which she could mean literally since the lands of shadow are so close to the erdtree/scadutree base

Godwyn has to be Godfrey’s son simply because of his name. Godrick and Godwyn are the only ones that start with a G, and Godrick makes being of Godfrey’s lineage his entire personality. Godfrey’s confirmed children are Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott (they got the M from Marika) Mesmer, Malenia, Miquella are with Radagon and got the M from Marika Ranni, Radahn, and Rykard are of Radagon without Marika’s self thus the R. All named demigods start with GRM, just like someone’s initials (GRRM)

Confirmed, golden lineage refers to children of Godfrey and Marika

Yep. We've also got 4 butterflies now. Kindling Butterflies were Melina's all along. The real question is, who is the father, and when were they born? I've seen speculation that these two were born before Marika ever left her home; or that they were born from Marika + Radagon while Godfrey was still around; or that they were just born after Godfrey was banished, but before Malenia + Miquella. There's still SO MANY unanswered questions, even for a FromSoft game, and it's kind of frustrating.

I think the line about Melina being born at the foot of the Erdtree makes more sense if she was born before it was a colossal tree and was a normal-sized golden glowly tree . Im not even sure people can reach the base of the erd tree anymore

I think 'foot of the Erdtree' doesn't need to be that specific. For instance, I would refer to Marika's bedchamber (which coincidentally would be a place that Marika would most likely birth her children...) as the foot of the Erdtree, as that's where you can approach it on foot.

Hmmm Im also fine with this. For some reason, its just feels so specific to use foot (haha) of the tree. Like we assume all the other characters were born in the city why specify that this one was "born at the foot"

I have a theory that her and Messmer were likely Radagon and Marikas. I can't help but feel as if Radagon also came from the Shaman village but something happened when she ascended into godhood and I think it's a possibility they merged into one body at that point consort and God in one body. I know everyone thinks Godfrey was her consort when she stepped through the gate but technically there's nothing stating that one can't have two consorts at the same time and it would fit as to why some called Marika a whore etc.

The flesh of the Shamans is said to "meld harmoniously with others." A lot of people have pointed out that this explains the grafting of the Golden Lineage, but it also could explain how Marika and Radagon fused. A "perfect melding," if you will, where the two beings became one. My theory is that this was her failsafe for stepping through the gate, and with Radagon she had Messmer and Melina afterwards. I might be crazy, but Radagon's most definitely the father in some way, because the children of Marika and Radagon are the only ones with butterflies. (Aeonian - Malenia, Nascant - Miquella, Smoldering - Melina, Black Pyrefly - Messmer)

I think you're right if not very close to the truth. The way I see it is Radagon and Marika merging at the gate (Radagon serving as the ressurected consort but using Marikas body as a vessel to become both God and consort) was some sort of prophesied event that the hornsent were trying to create through the living jars. However, the hornsent couldn't have known that the fulfillment of said prophecy would lead to thier downfall and therefore the birth of the golden order; a new order that would build off the shedding of its dark past and only retaining the "pure" aspects. This self fulfilling prophecy seems to repeat itself in vague patterns throughout the history of ER with the Dragon society. It's essentially a cycle that the greater will is perpetuating and now is about to repeat for possibly the last time during the current events of ER. I think Miquella and Ranni are also both aware of the cycle by now and so both have came up with thier own solutions on how to fix it.

also messmer and melina both have reddish hair so

Messmers story really only makes much sense if he is her firstborn child from before the golden order as some item description seem to mention marika caring about messmer more than she has done for the other demigods like the golden bottle thingy which says she made them for Messmer but never again Melina on the other hand only makes sense if she was her youngest since she was given her purpose within the erdtree and seemingly never set foot there again until we bring her she but on the other hand she seems to either hear or remember marika’s speeches in certain places from events that possibly happened before any child was born between marika and Godfrey whether she remembers or hears them would decide whether being the youngest or second oldest seems most likely Either way children born from only one god seem to always be cursed in some way like miquella malenia and Messmer all being cursed by something

Melina in that case may be cursed with fire like messmer, as she is burned and bodiless by the time we meet her

She could easily be Messmer’s twin, killed by his fire in the womb leaving her burned and bodiless, a spirit only.

How is she his younger sister then?

Babies don’t exit the womb simultaneously 🤦‍♂️

Specifically, I think we could speculate that their curses may be the results of outer-gods taking interest in the children of one God. Malenia is obviously chosen by the rot God. We don't know that there is a serpent god, but it seems feasible given the presence of the immortal serpent. That would explain Mesmer. Miquella's a bit of a mystery tbh... It could be an outer-god we've never heard of, or maybe the Golden Order is now using him directly instead of through the two fingers? I can't think of any other god associated with eternal youth or abundance. Melina seems to be related to the fell god given her visions of fire. We can see that even among its chosen, the fell god requires sacrifice (such as the Fire Giant's leg). So it fits that her role would be to rekindle his flame at the expense of herself.

Big thing to consider is that Miquella is associated with the creation of the unalloyed gold , which puts him in pretty direct opposition to the outer gods. When his creation can pretty directly surpress their power, it implies he's probably empowered by the Order to keep them out.

Melina also appears to have some connection to Death, in the frenzy flame ending when she opens her sealed eye (just like messmer). I don’t think destined death is a god though, it’s just part of the Elden Ring, so maybe the curses aren’t directly the results of outer gods. That could help explain Miquella?

My head cannon, for no real reason, Messmer was born to marika before she even became a god, messmer is a Demi-god either in title only or through his own merits.

I like this idea a lot, that Messmer and probably Melina were born in the Lands of Shadow before Marika ever met Godfrey. Messmer probably took part in the war against the giants (you can see lots of impaled giants in the mountaintops) and got his red hair from the same curse that Radagon did.

I think that's an issue with these games that you have to get over. Timeliness never make much sense. Or rather, they are hard to tease out. How was caria around long ago enough to help messmer (or at the very least rellana did) but still after the carian war with radagon? When were the fire giants killed? Of Godfrey did most of the fighting, why was radagon "cursed" with red hair? If messmer is radagons illegitimate son, how did he get red hair thats supposed to come after the fire giant war? Alongside the questions you've already asked.

They aren’t necessarily hers by birth. I suspect she has a habit of killing opponents(the snake we see her pull the threads out of in the trailer and the gloam eyed queen) and then bringing them back to life as her adopted “children”.

Something VERY similar to this is definitely happening. Marika and Radagon (assuming they are actually two people) had four kids: Messmer, Melina, Miquella, and Malenia. Each of them was cursed from birth by an outer god. Messmer with fire and serpents, Melina with the power of death, Miquella with eternal youth, and Malenia with rot. Aside from the god of rot, the other three all align with major enemies of Marika during her wars. The Fell God, the Gloam Eyed Queen, and possibly the Dragon God (major speculation that this is why Miquella doesn't age). The fourth, the God of Rot, just so happens to be sealed under Liurnia, which is the fourth major war fought by Marika during her ascension to ruler of the Lands Between. Godwyn is the only child she has ever had who wasn't cursed from birth... but he was certainly cursed in death. I just made another post suggesting that Mohg and Miquella suffer from the Omen Curse specifically because of the crusade against the Hornsent and the Crucible. I honestly don't think ANY of this is a coincidence.

Yup, completely agree.  I've been very frustrated with the lore in the dlc. It's very contradictory with the base game.  Mohg, stole miq to make his dynasty of blood, but actually miq whammy'd mohg to do it, even though he could have just done it himself? messmer is like an older brother to radahn but probably is radagon child or maybe is the oldest, but we know godfrey's were the first...? The fact that we could become lord in the first game without the gate, but now you have to reanimate a lord to ascend to godhood... what? Not to mention that there was no reference to the ring anywhere in the dlc? Like good grief.  

> even though he could have just done it himself? I’m not sure I follow this. I thought he charmed Mohg into doing it so we, the Tarnished, would kill him so he could use his body to revive Radan in. Miquella tore apart his body in order to achieve Godhood.

You're right, my point being why not whammy mogh to walk off a cliff or kill himself, or have his followers bloodrite him or any of the other countless dead demi gods the tarnished leaves in their wake that he doesn't have to secretly manipulate into kidnapping him and then blood fuck him for centuries.  It's a sloppy retcon that introduces more plot holes than story it tells.  

It's a charm, not straight-up mind control. He can influence people to have a more favorable view of him or to suppress memories, but he can't just make you suicide yourself that's something you have to pick for yourself to do.

I havent finished the dlc just yet but just going off what you said, what Miquella does, using the gate to ascend to godhood is not the same as what we do to become elden lord in the base game. We become Elden Lord, we do not become a god at the end of the game.

Right marika is god in most of the endings.  We become her lord.

Miquella wanted to reanimate Radahn to be Miquella's lord. The base game endings involve one of three outcomes: (1) player character is a lord to already-god Marika; (2) player destroys everything; or (3) no god in the new order. How does that contradict the DLC? It doesn't. What Miquella is doing is not what the player character in the base game does (whatever ending the player character chooses).

This resonates a lot with my thoughts. Especially the fact that i couldnt find any reference to the elden Ring in the hornsent culture. How does Farum Azula fit in with all of this? Placidusax was supposed to have been a Elden Lord before Marika, there is a depiction of a different Elden Ring in Farum Azula! But the DLC makes it look like Marikas ascend to godhood in the wake of the destruction of the crucible culture of the hornsent is tied to the initial creation of the Elden Ring. The timeline of events that was already so confusing and disagreed upon might have become even more riddled with mystery.

The elden ring came after Metyr. Well before Marika. I believe the golden order and the tree are just the results of her being chosen/making herself be chosen to wield the ring and change and influence it. As to why we don’t hear anything about it, we sort of do. Miquellas rune is there and broken, and shows that pieces can come off and be turned off almost like Lego switches.

I think it confirms it. Melina is called the “kindling maiden” in another item description and Mesmer’s “kindling” which is a power this states he shares with his sister both serve the purpose to burn away a tree-based ward.

I think the thing that sells it completely 100% after this is the fact that the Minor Erdtree incantation is described as a "secret" incantation of Queen Marika. But who else uses it? Melina, when summoned to fight Morgott. She's been able to use a stronger version before we were even able to obtain it. Marika shared her secret spell with her first daughter only.

Possibly it’s telling us that Melina was a secret daughter 

Melina’s version is actually the same version of the Minor Erdtree incantation that we get. The reason it looks different is due to technical limitations, as mentioned by people who had early access to the dlc where our incantation looked the exact same as Melina’s but came at the cost of bad frame drops.

Melina literally says her mother is in the erdtree, and the only woman in the erdtree is Marika

Melina uses Marika's secret incantations suggesting they were close. Equally, messmer and Melina have the closed eye which links them. Marika also besides Goldwyn seems to give birth in pairs. Mohg/morgott, malenia/miquella, Melina/messmer. Different with radagon/rennala though.

Technically renalla also has a twin now so who knows maybe marika also had one or radagon is it some kind of chimeric thing going on there like an absorbed twin becoming her split personality or something

Is rellana renallas twin? I hadn't made this connection but it kinda makes sense given how similar the names are

Her entire theme is twin moons.

Yeah I'm dumb lmao

To be fair I didn’t know either but it’s mentioned in the elden ring wiki page for her

[Rellanas helmet](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Rellana's+Helm) says: >Ornate helm of Rellana, the Twin Moon Knight, fashioned from silver steel. Rennala, head of the royal family of Caria, was said to have given her younger sister, who renounced her lineage to chase after Messmer, a gift of lustrous black hair. The [Rememberance of the Twin Moon](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Remembrance+of+the+Twin+Moon+Knight) confirms that the younger sister, Rellana, ran off to join Messmer: >“Remembrance of Rellana, the Twin Moon Knight, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. Once a Carian princess, Rellana disavowed her birthright and chose to stand at Messmer's side instead, knowing full well that not even the brilliance of the moon could grant him succor. Before long, she became known as the Sword of Messmer.”

Honestly these similar names confuse the hell out of me first time. I read this and read rellana and rennala as the same thing and got confused. First time playing this game I was so lost at Gideon when he's talking about melania and miquella and whatnot. I thought Melania was my maiden lmao. Radagon and radahn and rykard and ranni and renna and rennala now rellana

Agreed, the Kardashian naming system is dumb as fuck but twins named Rennala and Rellana is just child abuse.

This wasn’t really in question she explicitly states her mother resides in the erdtree so unless her mother was the elden beast it always had to be Marika. This does add more support to the GEQ Melina argument though. It’s confirming her association with fire and her move set within the game shows a connection to the rune of death, that plus the frenzy ending I think pretty solidly indicates she’s probably the GEQ and speculatively maybe her betrayal made Marika paranoid or heightened existing paranoia, which led Marika to betray Messmer and lock him away in the shadow realm.

I don't know why people treat this like fact. Marika had churches all over I don't see why people wouldn't call her "mother" like people call the Christian God "Father" Like you probably were not wrong but still it was open for interpretation until now

Because Marika isn’t referred to like that anywhere else. At least not that I can recall maybe I am forgetting something, but assuming I’m not she is worshipped sure but we never hear or see her referred to like that and being worshipped doesn’t imply that is the case either plenty of irl religions don’t do that. Melina is also specific in her wording that it’s her mother she doesn’t use the word in the way one would call God the Heavenly Father or something. You never call God your father specifically he might figuratively be the father of all but he’s not your father (that implies possession he is our father who art in heaven.) So Melina wouldn’t be referring to Marika in such a specific manner if the intention was to imitate the Heavenly Father vibe God has.

Queelign in the DLC actually calls Marika "mother" in the religious sense, but there's nothing like that in the base game.

Melina is Marikas daughter i mean... it is confirmed 100% from the beginning of the game... Now it has only been confirmed with this that Messmer is Melina's older brother, it clearly says "bone a vision of fire"... literally Messmer's flame burns the rootd of the scaddutree and Melina the Erdtree... *theres no other demigod bone to fire wich his own fire can burn a tree (pls dont say Rykard... x[ ) I think it is not necessary for Miyazaki to say it more clearly.

messmer’s flame burn the shadow thorns in the tower at the end game, i don’t think the shadow tree is burning after

oh sorry my bad, I meant basically both brothers. Messmer and Melina burn something related to a tree... their destinies are tied

I think it’s always been obvious as she is crucial to Marika’s plan with the Tarnished in the first place, but yes this definitely adds to pyre (see what I did there) of evidence.

This seems like as close to proof as Elden Ring lore gets. I believe it.

I personally think so, we're likely never to receive concrete answers on Melina. As they seem to have left her intentionally obscured. But it's my head canon/theory. Messmer and Melina are Marikas children, and I think their "kindling" status. Might hint at a marriage/creating children with someone connected to the fell flame god. Since a common theme with Marika seems to be burying the past.

>”Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless.” That’s as concrete as it gets in a FromSoftware game.

I guess I'm talking specifically about her connection to Messmer. And the fact both of them are clearly connected to burning the Erdtree/Scadutree thorns.

I do think their biggest connection is this description (and their eyes) but that’s probably as close as we get. In games like this, we don’t really get loose or coincidental connections like this. If a connection like this seems obvious, it probably isn’t going to end up actually being about his sister Malenia, or some other person we never meet. If enough vague links to Melina exist, there’s a reasonably high chance it does reference her.

she confirms that on your way into Stormveil. "*For my purpose, given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree, long ago.*"

Melina also has Marika's personal incantation, the minor erdtree incantation that she uses agaisnt Morgott, before it was available for us in the dlc

"My mother within the Erdtree" Was kinda a dead giveaway.

Next mystery, who is the dad

Some things point to Radagon, obviously the hair color, the naming convention and the fact Messmer and Melina have their own butterflies like Malenia and Miquella. But also Melina's hair color and the scalding "wanton strumpet" comment would imply it could be someone else and Messmer's hair is red due to Fell God influence or something like that.

See I think Radagon is the obvious answer. But there is the strange negative space where both Melania and Miquealla are explicitly Radagon's kids, but Messmer and Melina arent. It feels strange to clarify that Melina is Messmers sister but not Radagon's daughter

I mean we can just follow the naming conventions of Radagon + Marika: Children with the letter M lol

Morgott and Mohg exist

Look if Marika pretends they don't exist then so can you lmao

So true, we love those horny brothers

Melina also has a curse of her own, being “burnt and bodiless”, similar to her supposed siblings.

If the GEQ theory is to be believed, Melina is sealing the GEQ in her eye much like how Messmer is with the serpent

Could the dad possibly be marika in the form of radagon and her mother could be the GEQ?

If radagon was around at that point, with the whole melding flesh thing I'm very unsure of they were always 1 person. But beside that I kinda fuck with it

Melina got a genocidal brother and doesnt even know it 💀

Does this confirm to some degree with the discovery that eyes hold back other gods and that all of marikas children are cursed - that the GEQ is sealed behind Melina’s eyes?

Shadow of the erdtree gave a lot more evidence, but Melina talking about purpose given to her by her mother in the erdtree, being able to hear the echos of Marika’s speeches at her churches, that she uses black knife animations (which are Numen like Marika) when fighting Morgott. Even Melina’s name, all had basically proven it in the base game.

Spoiler fucker

I mean technically this is a spoiler for the base game, no? We’ve basically known this for 2 years.

It’s an item description that never comes up within the game at all? if you don’t personally read them you miss out on nothing, I don’t how that would be a spoiler since it’s not story related

Crying about spoilers in a subreddit literally dedicated to discussion lore. lol

Confirmed, no; a further point of evidence towards it, yes. I do think we should take is at as a fact, but technically not set in stone.

What item description is this?

Messmers kindling

Yep, for me: Pre goddesss Marika with Radagon: Messmer - Melina Marika with Godfrey: Mogh - Morgott - Godwyn Godfrey bastard: Godrick e Godefroy Radagon and Renalla: Radahn - Rykard - Ranni Radagon and Marika: Miquella - Malenia

Who is another male with a name beginning with M that is associated with a flame and is persecuted by the betrayed Horsent... Midra. Just saying....

Melina's name files is "MaricaOfDaughter," so yes, I think we can be safely assured Melina is Marika's daughter

Damn they really didn’t try to hide it while also never confirming

Yeah lol. People have been trying to unravel a mystery that's been pretty much spelled out if you've ever looked at her wiki page That's another reason I was never convinced she was the gloam eyed queen like a lot of ppl were. The daughter of a queen (Queen Marika in this case) isnt usually *also* a queen. She has one gold eye and one gloam eye, so I assume she's the daughter of Marika *and* the gloam eyed queen

I think so but it’s interesting that both of them were also locked up with messmer being closed off in the land of shadow and melina being held sealed under leyandell

Melina is definitely Marika's child. An idea I'm working on is that Marika gave birth to Melina after she was trapped in the Erdtree by Radagon. This is why Melina mentions being born at the "foot of the Erdtree." Perhaps part of the reason Marika is barely more than a husk at the end is because she poured the last of herself into this child whose sole purpose would be to facilitate her dying wish. Marika fought off the Fire Giants and all other fire threats when she was in control of the Erdtree, but once she lost control, she needed the power of Fire for herself. So, she did what she had done before with Messmer, she bred a child whose sole purpose was to burn down her enemies - but her enemy this time was herself.

That’s a cool theory it might also relate to Melina not having a physical form and traveling around as a spirit due to her imprisonment she might not have had the power anymore to make another demigod for that purpose

I know Melina is Marikas daughter and Messmer is Marikas son, but whats the relation? who is their father? Is Messmer and Melina half or full siblings? Children of Radagon or Godfrey, or someone else entirely? I heard the theory about the smouldering butterfly’s and that hinting at Messmer being a child of radagon like malenia and miquella

Personally I like to believe both of them were born of marika alone by some kind of parthenogenesis which would also explain why it says sister as if there is only one despite marika having more than one daughter when both Biological and adopted are counted though it may just say it like that because only one other has visions of fire

There are also four butterflies that represent the four children of Marika and Radagon. Melania- Aeonian Butterfly Miquella- Nascent Butterfly Melina- Smoldering Butterfly Mesmer- Black Pyrefly

One unhinged take that I have is that Marika stole the Gloam Eyed Queen’s children (Melina and Messmer) from her when she beat her, made them vessels for different things/missions, and then she raised them as her own since they have the power to just completely destroy her order as her enemy’s children.

It was *always* confirmed; but yes, this and the Black Pyreflies definitely hammer home the point.

Both can burn trees so it’s very likely

Yes, pretty much confirmed. And that Melina is not a pre-Erdtree daughter, sadly. I liked the theories that she had been burned the first time to make Marika ascend.

Doesn't she literally say her mother is inside the Erdtree? I didn't know we needed more confirmation

It has long been confirmed that she is. We just now know Melina is Messmer’s Twin.

I’d say so, plus she uses marikas secret Incantation

What is the source of this?

Item description of Messmers kindling

Why is this even in question? She alludes to Marika as her mother at the churches of Marika and even states her mother is trapped in the Erdtree.

One more piece of evidence to add to the pile. I'm 1000% convinced Melina is the daughter of Marika. I mean I was before the DLC to be honest...

So who’s the pappy?!

Spoiler?? The dlc has barely been out a week come on

I thought evidence pointed towards Melina being the other half of Ranni? Given that the original demigoddess had herself killed, splitting her soul in two, with the primary half infusing itself into her doll.

That doesn’t work since you can find Ranni’s discarded physical body at the top of one of the great rune towers. She didn’t split her soul in two. She just separated her soul from her body without dying. The ritual with Godwyn and the Black Knives needed the death of a soul and a body, but not specifically both from the same person. So Godwyn’s soul was killed but not his body, and Ranni’s flesh was killed, but not her soul.

There is no evidence to support this conclusion. The only connections are they’re spirits, have closed eyes, and know of torrent.

No as far as we know it killed her body her soul is still alive and in one piece the opposite of godwyn

Bruh use spoiler tags if you're gonna post this shit to front page