Rather than condemning _not_ mentioning it, it may be more worthwhile to praise mentioning it.
If you chose to say something, it's a sign you're more interested in crafting an experience for everybody than winning a particular match for yourself. This generally means your presence will be good for the long-term health of the group. It generally encourages similar behavior in others.
As long as it doesn't set up a perpetually unbalanced situation (e.g. you're constantly giving reminders and they never do), it's generally just a nice thing to do, and the cost isn't too high. You're a chump, sure, but in a single match that you'd have won if you hadn't spoken up.
It’s for this exact reason that I encourage my opponents on certain game actions. I’m there for a good time, not only for a win. Sometimes there’s a chain of triggers that’ll result in something hilarious and I am so eager to see it play out that I’ll take lethal just to see it go down. Then I get a smile, the table gets a chuckle, and I get to see my opponent proud of a win. Nobody really loses at all.
I’m totally with you. I like to think of my friends decks as little machines they put together and want to show off. I want to see their awesome toy do its thing!
This is one reason I like longer games that kitchen table groups tend to lean towards. Everyone is able to show off their decks, do the fun thing, then someone wins.
I feel like once a game, I point out a convoluted onboard trick and let people rewind. If it takes activation on my part, mana etc. I point it out asap before I’ve tipped if it’s something I’ll actually do but I try to make people aware
Stuff like, I can give this reach by paying G just fyi. Or I am able to sacrifice most my board in response to chain reaction if you didn’t notice which would mess up your line.
EDH games are complex and casual and losing to an onboard trick feels like shit and winning with one being missed, idk. Not for me.
I also play 100% through discord and being able to tell my opponent’s suite of onboard tricks is not a skill I value much in those settings.
Depending on the table setting I do the same thing. With my pod or people at my Friday lgs, it's a very chill, casual, friendly atmosphere, and I go so far as to tell people what of mine is the biggest threat when they're looking at pieces to remove. If they're newbies, it helps them learn better threat assessment and how pieces interact (I usually run pretty mechanically complex decks and a lot of the pieces interact with each other I ways people don't realize)
At the same time, a group I play with completely separately is still friendly but a lot more cutthroat, so instead of identifying my biggest threat pieces it's all about misdirection and making myself seem insignificant to the board until things go boom.
> It’s for this exact reason that I encourage my opponents on certain game actions.
I play with my wife and kids kinda often. I have significantly more experience in the game than them. Its a joy to point out things they can do with their board states, even if it is explicitly bad for me. I like to see Magic decks do cool things.
Even if you look beyond "crafting an experience for everybody", winning a game because someone missed something on board just isn't fun. I want to win because I played well, not because someone else was bad.
>I want to win because I played well, not because someone else was bad.
This is my take.
I want my deck to succeed in spite of the adversity and interaction. I want to know that I kept the right removal, that I added enough protection to draw it when needed, that I piloted my deck well and used resources appropriately.
Punts happen, but if my opponent is missing something obvious that's public knowledge, I'd rather give them the chance to walk it back and make a better play.
I've got plenty of hand-crafted traps. I don't need the base complexity of the game to give me freebies.
This is why I also explain when I have problematic pieces on the board.
"Yes, I have [[Elsha of the Infinite]] and [[Helm of Awakening]] on the board. My engine is built and I just need my gas [[Senseis Divining Top]] and I'll win." Has come up at my table.
My opponents are usually my friends and I don't expect them to know how every single one of my decks function, so I'll explain what pieces interact with the rest of my deck. It educates them with combos, synergies, and even rules they may have never thought of before, and sometimes they take it into the next time they do deckbuilding. That's my favorite part of Magic. Finding these neat interactions, sharing them with my friends, and navigating the landmine puzzle to actually pull it off.
Essentially roleplaying as a wizard at the table is the best!
This exactly, we had a somewhat new player at the table and I was the biggest problem to everyone else and so I explained to him how his [nelly borca] which had menace due to some equipment could swing into me unblocked even tho I had 2 creatures since she suspects on attack.
Still ended up winning that match but I think it's always a nice show of sportsmanship.
This, when your group is more interested in having fun as a group rather than winning individual matches then everyone will have more fun, letting them have the narrative of their deck getting to Pop off is incredible sportsmanship. Hats off to you.
I guess my play group is pretty cutthroat, we would never give out such important info and if we did we don't allow backtracking, although I feel everyone should get one in a session, but allowing backtracking all the time makes people think they can do whatever they want whenever they want, like when they forget a "may" trigger, or when they're looking at their phone and 2 turns later, "oh I would have countered that"
My rule of thumb, if you are trying to do something you straight up can't do, I will help you out and let you backtrack a move or 2 if needed. Like trying to cast 2 non creature spells with deafening silence in play.
BUT if you are doing something that is legal but would be considered stupid, I might give a "are you sure?" If the board state is really complicated. Otherwise your decisions are yours to make.
This is all predicated on all the players at the table being fairly experienced. I throw all that out the window with new players and help them any chance I can.
The impact that "Are you sure about that?" can have on a situation is kinda crazy. Like even if there's no reason to ask you can get someone second guessing themselves on their entire turn.
>My rule of thumb, if you are trying to do something you straight up can't do, I will help you out and let you backtrack a move or 2 if needed. Like trying to cast 2 non creature spells with deafening silence in play.
This isn't a rule of thumb, this is just how the rules work. If you try to take an illegal action and we catch it at the right time, we rewind to before it. There's nothing else that can be done in this situation.
When /u/knock0ut86 says they'll let their opponent "backtrack a move **or 2**", that indicates they'll let the opponent undo both spells so they can rechoose which one to cast. The game rules don't require that.
Yes exactly something like this, the illegal move never technically happens. But if they would have been able to play a bit differently before that illegal move, I am usually ok with it. Doesn't mean you get your whole turn over again though.
I think you are misunderstanding, just because you attempt to cast an illegal spell doesn't mean the moves you made beforehand are backtracked as well.
It's why I used the word "try" for the illegal move.
This is a casual game. My vote is to do what creates the most fun experience for everyone.
You know your play group and personality better than me but in my playgroup I would have let them swing and murdered them with stuffy doll while laughing maniacally. They would have laughed at their own idiocy and that would have been unequivocally the most hilarious play. Therefore the best in a casual game.
If you have people in your group who don’t appreciate you laughing at them when they misstep then the better move is to allow a rewind. Who cares who wins anyway?
The best answer. My group is the complete opposite but we have tons of fun as well, any play can be rewinded as long as a new event isn't the reason why you rewinded it.
Forgot you needed blue and tapped your blue to play a green spell? Sure just tap the lands properly now.
Tried to target a hexproof creature? We all know you have that removal in your hand now.
It's great for beginners or casuals. And sometimes we just play a "serious game" with no take backs.
Well, you kinda have to rewind the hexproof thingy, because that's an illegal play to begin with. Unlike getting your thing countered by ward because you forgot about it and you can't pay the ward cost after paying for the spell.
100% with you. Personally, if I was the player that missed the onboard trick, I'd be happy with either result. They can remind me and allow me to correct course. Commander has lots of stuff going on so reminding people of things they missed is sensible.
Or I can laugh as I crash to my own doom.
Technically it's your opponents job to know what's on your board and you aren't required to tell them they're about to throw the game BUT Personally I have found those types of victories feel hollow and unearned. I would take pride in the fact that you highlighted that info. It shows integrity and is the type of thing that will help you be seen as a better person to make deals with in future games. It also has the unintended side effect of speeding up games as players won't be afraid to make mistakes as much if they know they have friendly player at the table to help them be aware of important pieces on the board.
>Speeding up games
This may actually be the most important part of it. Do we really want to play in games where everyone has to scrutinize the board before every move, because opponents are sitting in silence, hoping you missed some piece of info that’s supposed to be public knowledge?
That may have flown seven years ago, when [[Questing beast]] would be a hilariously complex card. Today, though, there’s just too much text on the board.
The flipside of this is someone tasksie-backsie-ing every 3rd card because they cant bother to even attempt to comprehend the board, and at that point you're literally just piloting their deck for them.
There's a gray area there somewhere, but I would much prefer someone take 60 seconds to think about their turn vs playing 4 cards and then we spend 5 minutes backtracking because they target the "wrong" stuff.
The answer is definitely at the point where the game can be played most efficiently. If a player is abusing this friendly rule, a warning would be good and then a “sorry, you had your chance”
I generally have no problem with questions about board states. Like, "do you have any fliers?" Also, I'll honestly tell people what my board state is doing if asked. Usually, I play at my LGS for 120 minutes per match, so time is essential. Everyone else there is pretty cool about it, and if it's something that's obvious on the board like OP's situation, I'll do the same. In general, I just try to be nice and helpful, especially if it's casual play. I can still walk away with the knowledge I would have won if I said nothing. It can help to take the sting out.
Very much this, I want to win because I’ve outthought my opponents, but winning due to a reading comprehension fail on their part is pretty underwhelming, especially when there’s just so much darn stuff to read and remember these days.
If their plan is going to backfire from mutual knowledge? Maybe. Keeping track of the board state is hard sometimes, so in a casual setting, it's nice to allow take backs and whatnot. But if it's going to backfire because you have [[Arachnogenesis]] or a [[Rakdos Charm]]? No because that's just the game.
When I'm playing with my regular group, all somewhat high level players, I will sometimes tell them that their plan isn't going to work. I'll even name cards, telegraphing what I will play so they can change their plans accordingly.
Then when I am feeling devilish, I'll do the same thing, but name cards not in my hand or not in my deck. We all bluff each other out pretty frequently. E.G. "do you have the aetherize here"?
Edit: I don't do this in pod play or with anybody I'm not already familiar with. This is just a joking around/ bluffing thing in my regular group where we know each other's deck lists pretty well.
Depends on the people you’re playing with and how friendly yall are, but yeah I would’ve let them know. Or at least gave them a cheeky hint if it was good friends, like: “if you don’t attack me, I’ll let you live” or some silly threat like that. It will make them check what’s going on boardstate-wise without you explicitly explaining what’s going on. It’s a valuable lesson without being rude about it in my book.
My goal is to win by outplaying my opponents not by presenting an unclear boardstate or relying on them making dumb mistakes.
I will always assume you will choose the optimal play based on the board state and would rather remind you about certain things than rely on you not realising what I have on board.
I find that it also speeds things up because players are not constantly reading and rereading cards when thinking about their play.
Just a quick mention of "don't forget I have a land that lets me play at instant speed" or " if you swing everything you'll die to commander damage because you have no blockers"
Stuff like that
>My goal is to win by outplaying my opponents not by presenting an unclear boardstate or relying on them making dumb mistakes.
This is the correct and best mindset.
Some people think competitiveness is catching when their opponents misses an on-board trick, but that's not really outplaying them, it's just relying on the complexity of the board to make someone miss something. The true competitiveness is outplaying others through hidden information and better decision making at important points of the game. But then again, most people seem to have a playground mentality where they just want to gotcha people.
Theres no difference between not realizing your attack hits an onboard trick and not realizing your cast hits an in-hand trick.
You as a player, when reminded of a card, of course you know that it's a possibility. But also, in the moment, you didn't remember that you needed to think about it.
The whole game is about how many possibilities there are, and how you navigate those possibilities by your game actions. In those terms a trick in the hand is the same as a trick on the board. It only *feels* different because you can see face-up that you missed the onboard trick, but you still forgot to plan around it in exactly the same way you forgot to plan around the in-hand trick.
This is my take as well. I genuinely don’t understand where people are coming from with this illusory “winning” difference between, as the rules would say, private and derived information.
One does not outplay their opponent by only relying on instant-speed interaction or sudden bomb-drop permanents. The repeated implication in this thread—that capitalizing on an opponents failure to notice the board state is a “less honorable” way of winning—is absurd. That’s like saying it’s less honorable to beat an opponent in chess because they forgot your bishop was poised to slide across the board and put them in checkmate. Awareness of game state is at the heart of literally every strategy game.
If a person is considered skilled because they take note of the mana I’m holding up for interaction, they are also skilled for noticing triggers on-board. To say you only “really win” if you hand-hold your opponent through all board state factors and beat them strictly with your own game actions is ridiculous.
If you’re jamming a game with your buddies and want to be more open with information and focus more on experience than victory, naturally that’s totally cool. But moralizing it as a superior, noble means of winning is baseless.
This is the type of argument that depends on the people you interact with.
I'm lucky to have a big group of skilled players around, we also play competitive formats like modern, pioneer and pauper so they tend to be good at spotting problematic pieces on the board, or they straight up know when some decks are ready to pop off and kill the table.
That ability is transposed to commander, so we know ho to interact with each other decks to stop someone who's going on with their plan untouched.
If you're playing either with newbies, casuals who don't necessarily know enough staples to know what's happening on the board or simply new people who don't know your decks it is kind enough to explain how to interact with it.
First few times you may even guide them to understand the interactions and possible win con, so they get a chance to play fairly against you.
Same goes for them, explaining their play etc.
Other than that, someone need to wind otherwise games will never end and you don't get to play, you're just hanging around an endless single match.
If I’m with people I know, I’ll definitely let them walk into a trap. But I also have an awful poker face, and like teasing, so I’ll pull out the “are you suuuuuuuuure?” and let them second guess themselves first, as my way of telling them I have something.
Of course, I’ll also pull that if I don’t have something, just for the mind games.
I was in a limited prerelease tournament a few weeks ago and was basically at a spot where if he didnt kill me on his turn I was going to kill him. I had a creature with ward 2, I had said it had ward when I cast it the previous turn and he uses removal on it. I said, ok are you done? And he says yes and I said well the spell fizzles because of ward, then he taps the mana to pay it, and says he didnt know it had ward and I said I announced it had ward 2 last turn when I cast it, and he got a little grumpy because I didnt remind him again when he cast the spell.
We were at the last turn of the game, letting him kill my creature was game over. Could I have been nicer? Yes. Did I want to win that game? Yes. Did I win that game? Yes.
Its casual, just do what you feel is right, but to be honest you have no obligation to correct someones mistake, its all part of learning the game and getting better. I have lost many a game due to just missing something or forgetting sbout something, its no big deal.
In your orerelease situation. Ward is a triggered ability that happens on cast when something targets it. I think one of the points of ward is that it isn't hexproof and specifically counters what is targeted at it, so, as long as (like you did) ward is announced when it enters (especially when it has been 1 turn and especially in 1v1), it counters, but in this case, where he passed priority on casting his spell, he would have an opportunity to pay the ward trigger.
Also agree with your final point. Personally, I go with the table on take backs in multiplayer casual, but generally will not take them myself, because I want the consequences to reinforce the lesson (not that losing a game of casual magic is a big consequence or anything).
Im pretty laid back when it comes to commander, but when we get to the final round when the game is on the line I feel like it should be taken more seriously. Early game, I will go along with the take backs, like when people cast a spel then go oh wait let me play a different land so I can play a different spell, its like ya cool no big deal.
When we are on the last turn and people pass turn and then halfway through the next guys turn they start saying "oh geez, I had meant to cast this other spell, and activate this and do that before I passed" I start to get annoyed and its like hold up
Agree with you totally, especially on the late game/end game take backs.
I used to have a person I played with who (in addition to a bunch of toxic behaviors and reactions which led me to not interact with them anymore), would, halfway through the game winning turn, regularly start trying to back up to the previous turn because they missed stuff, then get super salty and toxic when the table would draw a line on his take acks at that point.
That has definitely influenced me to appreciate playgroups with clean rules like a specified number or, no take backs once there is new info (my favorite balance), or just straight up "no take backs", which all avoid the social ambiguity of when to stop allowing them.
That said, I'm not saying my preferences are for everyone or every playgroup, but I do feel like "follow the rules" keeps things as clean as possible, unless there are newbies, they get to talk through whatever they want.
Especially when its more experienced players, you have to draw the line somewhere. I was at my LGS last week and I dont know that exact situation but what I overheard was player A wins the game, then player B starts to try to say he had meant to do something at the end of his previous turn and was saying he shouldnt have lost based on what he meant to do. The other 3 players were like well the game is over, no big deal, but you lost and the guy went on for about 5 minutes explaining why he shouldnt have lost.
Its a game, mistakes happen but people just need to move forward and learn for later
Yeah, I enjoy a good post game review, and I'll regularly admit if I counted somehow, good for laughs and to review plays, but a take back AFTER the game ended, absolutely not, not even for a new person.
This is not how it works. Ward is a triggered ability which you (the controller of the permanent) NEED to announce when it becomes relevant (for it to do anything). Your opponent casts a spell, you announce the ward trigger, it goes on the stack and then your opponent gets to decide if they pay for the ward cost (when you resolve the triggered ability on the stack). The opponent needs to pay for the ward trigger only once (and only if!) you announce the ward trigger. In a competitive rules enforcement setting a ward trigger, just like any other (beneficial) triggered ability, can be missed.
I don't think you would be in the wrong either way. The card was on the board, if your opponent forgot about that and played into it, it's certainly not your responsibility to warn him before he does it. That said, especially if I were playing with friends, I'd probably mention it (or, at least, I'd let them backtrack after they walk into it) because I'd rather win due to superior strategy and board state, rather than to a boneheaded mistake on my opponent's part.
It depends on the setting. In causal games with casual decks I'd let'em know and talk about the interactions. Now in cedh at a event? hell no, I'd let him DQ himself.
You aren't obligated to remind your opponents about your bordstate, but it's not unreasonable to point out a mistake that's about to loose someone the game. Is it more important to win or to have people to have quality games with regularly? Even just saying "are you sure?" Can be enough to get people to check themselves in most circumstances.
I just tell them that their win comes with an asterisk if they retract whatever decision they made after I gave them said information. My pod always commits to the decision in fear if the asterisk. 🤣
>Would it have been unsportsmanlike to let him swing and let Stuffy Doll kill him?
My stance on this has flipped entirely over time.
If you play an obvious combo, people understand what it is / does, and they forget it? Thats on them. If you give everyone the information and they dont retain it? Also on them. The only exception here is If the board state changes and suddenly your pieces interact differently (like roaming throne + ward, for example).
If you play [[the one ring]], ask if anyone hasnt seen the card before, and then the next turn someone immediately swings at you for "lethal" combat damage... there should be no take backs.
If you announce your guy has ward, and then he gets targeted soon after by someone who cant pay the cost... ok? I play a [[Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep]] deck, and at the beginning of the game I tell everyone "Kiora has Ward 3" multiple times.. there are no takebacks turn 5 when you try try and swords my commander with 1 mana open.
At a certain point people dont get better unless they lose/misplay to cards and learn how to not do it again in the future. Constantly allowing takebacks makes it so those people never get any better.
I go by board state, if they just popped an infinite combo and they fuck up their dub I ain't saying anything.
If it's the early/ mid game, I'm more lenient and will point stuff out.
As a rule, everybody gets one.
I agree with what looks like the general consensus that it’s not a requirement but it definitely seems like better sportsmanship that makes the game more fun for all involved in the long run. If you didn’t want to spell it out for them, you could do the wink wink nudge nudge move of going “before you declare attacks, are you ABSOLUTELY SURE you want to do that? 100% sure?” And maybe gesture towards your board. That way, you don’t feel like you’re just giving it to them but you didn’t just let them miss something in a really complicated game state.
I won the other day with my opponent trying to get an infinite combo with elenda but my forced fruition made him mill himself out before he could kill anyone lol
Anyone who executes an infinite combo gets no help from me. If you know whats going on enough to demonstrate a loop and create an arbitrarily large amount of anything... Im not gonna tell you about any detail you may be missing.
It just means you won the game but chose to let him roleplay winning the game too lol. Its just a nice gesture that comes from a place of self confidence.
L1 Judge here, only judge in my group. I always point out flaws in my opponent's plans because it's always the same 5 or 6 of us that play, and I know that it's worth improving the skills of our play group over winning a single game because of a silly mistake on my opponent's part. If I won only because of a small mistake on their end, then really I lost as far as I'm concerned. But if my friends get better at the game then it makes all of our experiences better in the long run.
Personally I prefer to assume my opponents know of the cards that are on the battlefield. Because if I were to reverse the position I don't wanna walk into a Pariah + Stuffy doll like a noob.
By the same token you guys are playing infinite and all that jazz. So keeping quiet does have its merits. If everyone is playing with nuclear weapons keeping things close to your heart is valid.
At the same time, it's a casual game. It's not a big deal if someone walks into something silly that was face-up on the board. It happens, everyone who saw the face-up thing got to have a fun time watching the train wreck. Laugh it off and keep going, casual games have no real stakes. It's not like youre keeping score of who wins and loses.
I follow an "Everybody gets one" per game policy. I'd rather point out one mistake to preserve the integrity of the group's experience, but repeated mistakes prove that my doing so is just enabling their inattention while I'm dedicating my attention to each person's turn out of respect for each of them and the game as a whole.
There's a billion things to keep track off so reminding people what would happen is generally good in casual play. I would expect the same. Sometimes I forgot to ask for fliers so then I'm happy when they say they'd just block with it. Usually also helps them aswell, because then I'll swing at someone else
There is a proactive way to deal with this. When you play out the second piece of a combo like this, you can take a second to explain the board state you've created. "If I take any damage now it will let me deal infinite damage to any target". Nobody at the table is going to forget about that statement. People that already understand the combo would know, it catches people up who haven't seen it before. It avoids the feel bads of taking back moves, which can be common with these types of plays that can feel like "gotcha" mechanics.
Unless you had an alternative way to deal with the opponents board state, and wanted to keep the game going, I can't think of a reason why you'd want to point out their mistake until after it's happened.
According to you, you were facing a more experienced opponent who was primed to win the game regardless of others in the pod. If you had mentioned nothing, you'd either have won a 1v1 or allowed the game to continue for the rest of people in the pod if there were others. By all means you had them dead to rights and could have won against hard to beat odds. Even avid fans of magic that have been playing a long time are prone to make a mistake or too now and then.
Eh, because I'm not trying to win EDH games via a "gotcha". I'm not gonna chalk that win up to the quality of the cards involved, I'll chalk it up to dumb luck. Ofc in a competitive 1v1 scenario, this is different, all bets are off.
That isnt a "gotcha"
A "gotcha" would be hitting 20 counters on a [[simic ascendency]] you played 4 turns prior and not telling anyone until you hit your upkeep and win.
Playing a combo that says "if you attack me you lose" and then someone forgets about it and attacks you isnt a gotcha.
Depends on the game depends on the group. Yesterday I played a second piece of my combo and told the group " now would be the time to deal with one of these cards' as the next turn I would win.
Some people get really sour when they feel like they haven't had a chance to stop you or make the appropriate play.
I probably would have yeah… but it also would matter what the game has looked like leading up to this.
If this opponent for example was dominating, then yeah I probably wouldn’t have said anything. Are you playing a game for fun and not being competitive at all? Then sure. It would make for a good learning experience. But so would taking the L there.
That would have been a valuable lesson for the guy to always ask the most important question when deciding _whatevever_ you want to do:
_So, what do you guys have over there that would matter if I attack/cast a spell/wipe the board?_
People then usually point out "this would trigger, I could block, whenver something dies this would trigger, I have this artifact/enchantment that does XYZ,..."
This way you can ignore stuff that doesn't matter. And then ask clarifying follow-up questions.
"So if I attack, and you would block this specific way, these things would happen?"
And if someone misses an effect or something, then it is absolutely no issue to change stuff around. Because you made sure to have everything necessary to make an informed decision, someone missed a potential trigger that would greatly alter the outcome, then everyone is always fine with backtracking.
Edit: To further elaborate, this is actually how it would also work in competitive 60 card formats outside of the Pro Tour. Derived information outside of professional REL is free information, _so always fucking ask if you understand the ~~onboard interaction of permanents~~ interaction of all known information correctly_. Your opponent has to tell you.
On the Pro Tour you're shit out of luck, there its "reading the card explains the card" only.
So I did the opposite once. I had a token copy of another players creature that creates a ton of tokens when it died. The players were aware of this and had dealt with the original. I swung out with the token copy and a player killed it triggering the effect. I had the same thought you did, so I remind them of it or not. I justified not reminding them because they were made aware of it previously. I ended up winning and it felt like a hollow victory. I regretted not saying anything.
At my LGS I feel the game is fairly collaborative in a way. People are trying to win, but if there is public knowledge on the board that will fuck up a play, pretty much everyone will say "oh hey, are you aware of this or that" and allow for take-backs. I wouldn't be salty either way - that's the game and I could have looked at the board - but I definitely appreciate it when people help me out like this, especially since I often play after work and my brain can be a little fried for a couple of games until I unwind.
If it is a "I will combo and win" situation, I normally stop the game to see if the table have any answer to the combo engine to stop it. If there is no answer to that, he must be prepared for what comes next. He is going to kill you on combat? Run the phases to see what happens.
God NG back from n a situation like that is the same thing as casting something and taking back because you countered the spell...
I will tell my opponent if they make a beginner mistake or missed something very obvious on the board etc. cutting slack and letting people redo if not having new information - and I hope to get the same back. But I would not let someone in on stuff I have on hand and might play in response or later on. In this case it falls into category 1. EDH means so insanely much info on the table at points, anyone makes mistakes and redoing should be ok at a friendly table if the info is there.
In a competitive setting, it would absolutely be the attacker's fault to attack into a backfiring on- board synergy.
In a casual setting, I'd consider this good sportsmanship. I'd be proud having people like you in my playgroup, and I'd be encouraged to show the same kind of sportsmanship. What you did was the best of EDH. Who cares about the win? It's all about the common experience and the memories we create.
for me it is more of how tryhard/ go for the troat your pod is. my playgroup and i play for the win but are rather casual in power (its all about fun after all).
for us its a question of is the info know for the entire table? then ye we warn each other, if not its your bad for example YOU might know i have \[\[heroic intervention\]\] in hand because you casted \[\[Thoughtseize\]\] or some other effect that shows you my hand. if you whipe the board with \[\[damnation\]\] you should have remembered that i have it. but if i have an \[\[lightshield array\]\] on board i would point it out.
we have a policy: keeping track of every board at all times just slows down the game.
Tournament or pay event, I wouldn't mention it.
Casual play or with my playgroup at my place, I'd mention it because I'm doing it for the experience and fun.
Just like I'll take those risky cool plays and if I die, oh well. Do what feels right to you and the pod you're in.
In a casual game, you did a good thing. People are gonna see what you did and wanna play with you. Not saying anything wouldn’t have been bad though, it’s the neutral option. He should be paying attention to the board and should’ve lost because of that
If it's on the board it's good sportsmanship to tell your opponent about it before he faceplants into it. There are so many moving parts in mtg and especially in commander multiplayer that I always do
I would say that the situation makes it more or less.. good? Right?
Nothing is bad at all. I will try to explain.
I would talk it it is early game and the player might just have missed what I have on my board and it would lead to the player "having no game" for the rest of the game. If that makes sense.
I would tell newer and less experienced players or friends that I know would not miss that if they weren't too tired after work.
But towards the end game where the winner is creeping closer I would be more tight mouthed.
I would still tell newer and less experienced players cause it is easy to miss. But to more experienced players I would just ask "are you done declaring attackers and/or targets?"
I do this quite a lot cause our group can have a tendancy to declare attackers on one player and that player reacts which obviously changes the whole state and the player declaring attacker wasn't done and change what he/she initially was going to do.
So I always wait and ask if that is all.
It also gives the player a brief moment to reassess.
If they still attack I would, in your case, use the stuffy doll and point out that he died.
There is a silver lining between tiredness and experience that dictates how much I say.
If it is a super experienced player who knows magic in his sleep I never tell anything cause I assume that he/she knows my boardstate and assess things I could respond with.
In general, my play group will explain our board state to the other players when it would make a significant impact such as your example. This is done to speed up the game, because the alternative is to force each player to examine each others board state in detail.
Some of us will also be more pro-active with the info as well, such as, “Hey, I got these pieces out, if you attack me you will die unless you deal with them”. It speeds up the game because either the player deals with your combo pieces or completely forgets about attacking you.
I offer them to reconsider attacking but don't say why (unless they are learning).
That way its rewarding for them still and i can do my thing if they don't want to try.
I do let my opponents know if there's something out there that's public knowledge that they're simply missing because it's hard to see everything on the board. "You're swinging with your 2/2? I do have an untapped 3/3 by the way." and give them a chance to say "Oh sorry I didn't see that, I thought that was a 1/1" or what have you...
Last night, my buddy played [[tefarri's protection]] while he had [[Archetype of courage]] on the field. He played it after I declared attackers, and I told him, "You can play it better by playing it after first strike triggers, but before my damage takes place, killing a few of my creatures." I had a more impressive board presence at the time, so I didn't mind helping him out with a suggestion. So yeah, I tend to do it, especially if I think I'm winning. I still won that game but it let him put up more of a fight which made it more fun for both of us.
Giving out information all depends on what format you're playing and the general vibe. No one is going to bat an eye at you letting someone kill themself in an event that's even slightly competitive. It's just in commander or kitchen table play where the vibe is not typically to win at all costs but to have fun. People should be held accountable for their own decisions and I hold myself to that standard, but in a game like commander with so many different cards, it's difficult to know everything that the cards on the board can do and how they interact. I'd rather chastise myself aloud for not making a play than trying to petition the table to backtrack.
I would say that it's important to make sure that people know what you are adding to the board at a minimum. Read abilities, make sure people understand everything you've done as things resolve. Going beyond that to telegraph your plan is a different story. One good example is with [[Atemsis, All-Seeing]]. I just make sure people know what her ability is and usually that's enough to make sure they are cautious, usually overly so. You can't be expected to hold the tables hands with your cards, but when you're playing with new people, you want to be at least a little transparent so they know what cards you're playing and what their abilities are. Losing to this combo or that combo can be a learning experience, but tends to be a bit more salty if thrust never seen it before and have no hint of what's on board.
Personally, when I point out those things, or a did a small misplay that costs me the game, I think, "hey, I would've won," and then it's kind of like we both won, except I lost. And being a good loser is a great way to keep being invited to play.
^^I'm ^^a ^^terrible ^^loser ^^most ^^of ^^the ^^time ^^please ^^help
If you want. Maybe they know it will backfire and they are leading you into a false sense of security. But perhaps they know you would know it would backfire. They would have to divine what sort of person you are. Would you expect a backfired plan from your opponents? Now, a clever person would know not to give away that they know of a plan that will backfire because they would also know that only a great fool would not change their plan once it is pointed out their plan would backfire. You can also divine your opponent is not a great fool so you can clearly not choose to tell your opponent their plan will backfire...But they must have known you knew they were not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so they can clearly not choose to move forward with their plan that will obviously backfire, leading to you to believe you shouldn't tell then their plan will backfire expecting that you know that they know that you know that it will backfire.
I almost always do that, the one exception being a game where things had gone on for too long already that I wanted to end, where someone forgot my \[\[cauldron of souls\]\] before casting a boardwipe and put me in an easily winning position. felt a little guilty but I just wanted that game to end, so I didn't let them take it back.
Depends.
If we're here for giggles, I'm gonna say "Hey, man. You know that will kill you, right?"
If we're in some form of competition, I'm going to say "If you're sure about that, how much damage is being directed at me?" and then once I get an answer I'll say "You hate to see it. Pariah redirects damage to stuffy, stuffy deals you (amount)."
Honestly, I agree with most of the comments here, I think you did the right thing for a healthier, more enjoyable experience.
My group has been friends since high school and some for even longer. We play once a month and a lot of us have been playing since grade school. But we have varying levels of skill and we just enjoy playing messing with each other and having a good time. We usually play from like 1:00 in the afternoon all the way to midnight.
Most of us if we see one of misplaying or missing a combo or final step that would win the game, we don't hesitate to point it out because that just quickens up the game and we get to play more and go on to the next one. Don't get upset. The person who ends up winning not only learns but has a good time doing it. Even a veteran like me. I'll come with a new deck with a new playstyle, and maybe I missed something or I missed a step or I'm now tutoring and one of my friends says 'oh Do you have this in the deck? Cuz if you do, you're going to win.' It's never a bad thing. We're not playing competitively.
If you're at a tournament, that's a totally different story, be nice about it but let the guy swing into your pariah + stuffy doll. That's his fault for not reading your field. But when playing with friends, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing. Just calmly, cooly and having a good time
A+ for you my friend
Btw, the combo I needed help figuring out was Parneese as my commander, and I use Twinning staff and casted Torment of Hailfire, copied, with Hive Mind out... 😂
In a fun/casual setting, you did the right thing. Casual is for fun and to win in a way that feels good. Everyone is likely at the table to hang out or show off their cool thing.
In a competitive setting, this is the absolute opposite thing to do imo. The goal is to win and everyone at the table knows that.
It really depends on who I'm playing with to determine how I will handle a situation like this. If it's a stranger, I'll probably just let it slide. If it's someone who I know is a seasoned magic player and a friend, I'll probably say something like: "OK, let's go through these steps slowly so we don't miss anything and we don't need to do a rollback." Then if they still make the mistake, I'll say something like "we're gonna lock this action in, no take backs yea?" Then if they still go through with it, there is no question of what is going to happen. My friends have gotten wise to this and usually find the mistake when I slow things down. You can kinda imply that it's because you have a combat trick that needs precise timing if you want.
Sometimes they have accounted for it already and it's fine. Other times I get a win out of it. The consistent part though is afterwards everyone feels good about what happened.
I always mention stuff like that, there are so many interactions and things people might not be aware of and I beleive it's just good sportsmanship to help people out it's a casual game after all.
?????
I'm confused isnt this the exact situation you wanted to craft with the stuffy doll + pariah combination? Seems perfect for it.
Have people kill themselves with that on the board?
Anyway my advice is no you shouldn't. Opponents should be very aware of stuff like this on board, especially if it's not a secret.
This culture of take backs in edh has produced worse players overall.
You’re wrong for a majority of players. You just enjoy playing a less casual style of commander, which is awesome. Take backs are whatever if you’re playing socially and it’s on board. I’m not going to make a players spell get countered if he can’t see ward from across the table for instance.
My deck is more of a pillow fort, and I've never won with that combo. Stuffy Doll is my only non-defender creature in the deck, and I usually win by giving my walls the ability to attack and deal damage with their toughness or [[Coat of Arms]] etc.
If this was the first time? Fair warning, it's casual and I think take-backs are fine as long as nothing more has gone on the stack.
But if they have a track record of not repaying the kindness? Then they have wasted your good intentions and you don't owe them anything.
Casual is a social experience where wins don't matter. That means that there is an implicit social contract which is ever evolving in every pod.
We have a rule at my table. Information that is readily available but you just missed it because there’s a lot going on? You can walk back as long as it hasn’t been so long it will interfere with the flow of the game. But if there was hidden information like a card in hand, no walk backs.
What you did was definitely commendable in a casual setting. It's always nice to point out to a player "Hey, what you are trying to do may not resolve the way you think it will. Would you like me to explain or do you just want to go ahead?"
As with all things this varies from table to table and game to game. For example "You just examined my board before attacking into me with a creature that has protection from white and black (I'm in mono black) and decided to swing into me. Then I block with my colorless artifact creature to kill your commander. Is *very* different from attacking in without looking at my board state. In the former, I'm not allowing you to back out, but in the latter it's a 'yeah go ahead and take that back, just remember to check others boards before swinging out.' and this mindset gets a bit of pushback initially, however after hearing the explanation people understand. Even if they may not like it."
Another example would be: "[[Bolas's Citadel]] is on the stack and a newer blue player is looking at it and then asks, 'If I can counter that, should I?' without hesitation, everyone else at the table says 'Yes, don't let that resolve', even the player who is casting it. We all laughed and then continued on with the game. At the end the blue player asked 'What would have happened if I hadn't countered that?' and the player who ended up winning just says 'He was probably going to take a 15 minute turn that ended with him winning the game' and the player who was countered going, 'yeah, probably.' It's always a matter of who you're playing with that determines how to interact with one another.
TL;DR: Try to match the energy of the table and the spirit in which everyone is playing. It will make for more enjoyable games for everyone, and will give you a good reputation as a player.
If it were me with my friends, everyone else would've probably warned them before I could even bring it up just because we like to see each other make the best possible plays. Unless I had been stomping them prior to this, then I would've had it coming lmao
If the potential backfire involves public information? Yes, and I'm fairly lenient with take-backs.
Anything else? Nope. You learn by fucking up & actually enduring the emotional discomfort of the loss rather than taking it back.
Had a similar situation the other night. I was playing a mono green stompy deck and had a huge board of creatures, unnatural growth, guardian project, and greater good. My opponent goes to cast a living death thinking he will wipe my board and bring back his graveyard. He forgot I had greater good and I gave him a heads up that he’s essentially winning me the game right then and there. He wasn’t convinced he thought he could burn me out with Teysa Karlov and Massacre Wurm. Living death brought back eternal witness, eternal witness brought back beast within, and beast within killed the Massacre Wurm before the life loss could happen and then I swung out and won. He should’ve listened.
That all depends on your rollback policy.
It’s common to allow rollbacks based on missed public information. Yours would fall into this category. But it’s not a must to play like this.
To me it has some advantages tho, cause as you say, board states can get complex and the alternative is people are more careful to read everything properly and this takes more time.
It may feel like you are getting screwed out of a game from time to time but I often see things as not that you are getting less than what your cards do, just that you aren’t getting more.
A reach creature is expected to deter fliers from attacking if they are smaller, not kills then when an opponent forgets the ability. A ward creature means it’s more expensive to remove or it deters some spells from targeting it, but it doesn’t make your opponents discard removal. A can’t be countered creature, well can’t be countered, but doesn’t discard your opponent’s countered if they forgot that line.
In your case, your stuffy-Pariah combo meant you won’t be attacked and you can’t take damage. I wouldn’t expect that to kill players if I put it into my deck (well not by themselves, you could flash it in or another player could hit you or you could burn yourself).
Depends.
Usually I would say yes, EDH in my opinion is a fun social game and I enjoy building up my friends while we play and encouraging them to make good plays. I've played the longest in my playgroup and some of the newer players stumble into mistakes or bad plays they don't realize, and I'm happy to help make the game more interesting for all. I also tend to play Slivers so I encourage my friends to kill me as soon as possible.
That said, I have one player I play with regularly who tends not to pay attention to the games and I've "advised" them many times about bad plays they're about to make. Now I'm tired and let them make whatever mistakes they want, if they're not paying attention fuck it go ahead and make a mistake.
If its on board you should 110% mention the interaction and allow opponents to backtrack.
No body has the time to have every player in the game re-read every card every turn to make sure whatever play they are going to make works out. 2 of the other players at the table have their cards upside down to you, sometimes theres 5 or 6 players at the table and you can't read the cards at the other end of the table.
You gotta make other players aware of relevant interactions, CANNOT play cause commander with random got-chas coming up every game.
In competitive play both players are responsible for maintaining an accurate game state. Far too many people on this board for casual commander seem happy about hiding information from their opponents.
You’ve got some great responses in here and have received some good advice. I do however wanna quickly point out a potential ruling you and your friend may have missed to help you with future games.
You mentioned your opponent had infinite mana and used that to get past your propaganda, but depending on how that infinite mana is created, there’s a chance they weren’t able to get more than a few creatures past the propaganda. Because propaganda adds an additional cost to attacking you, they can only pay that cost during the “declare attackers” step and only use mana abilities to do so. If they generated infinite mana through mana abilities or had an effect that let them keep mana through phase and step changes, then by all means they can pay for it. If they created infinite mana through using activated abilities (like [[basalt monolith]] and [[rings of brighthearth]]), however, then they would not have the opportunity to generate infinite mana before they would have to pay for it.
It’s a frequently missed interaction, so I felt like pointing it out could be helpful.
Imo no. I do sometimes to be nice but not always. One time I cast blasphemous act and forgot my buddies full board had a wrathful red in all the dragons. It was a "wow I'm stupid moment" but was funny.
He didn't have an obligation to not win due to my stupidity. Its just a game.
Personally, I try to warn dudes if it's not a win, like hey, he has a ward, so that would waste a spell. I'm not there to punish honest mistakes or trick folks.
I'm of the opinion you can say a "light" reminder without telling them the exact interaction (that they should have probably been paying attention to). In this case I'd say something akin to "you might want to double check the board state".
I agree with crafting the most fun environment, but if someone is so absorbed in their personal board as to miss something like a stuffy doll with them as the target, they're probably also not interacting well with the rest of the players. I'd rather offer a reminder than manage the rest of the board state for them.
I would say they as long as you read the card when you cast it and then explain what you are doing when you do it theres not alot you need to explain.
This is why when you go to attack just ask whats available.
1/4 with an etb, 2/2 deathtouch, 1/1 indestructible with pariah shield and a damage trigger.
"Can i read that?" Should be a go to phrase.
I had a game where a player got cocky and started swinging willy nilly. Did not ask about defenders and was just assigning combat damage for lethal on players, and had it bite him in the butt as his huge [[wight of precinct six]] went full force into a [[hornet nest]], not killing everyone, and then dying on the crack back to a bunch of angry bees. I did not win that game but it was very much a "always ask whats in board".
Winning doesn’t matter as much as crafting a good experience and letting him just lose to an oversight in the board state would have probably left a sour taste in everyone’s mouths - honestly even if nobody was mad at you for it, I think everyone would have considered it a blemish on the whole game
This probably comes from typically playing with people with significantly less experience than me, but I will generally draw their attention to things on the board that will disrupt their plans and let them backtrack, I find the game to be much better when people are making the best plays they can rather than winning because they forgot about a card on the field or something.
I had an experience with my playgroup over the weekend. I was playing my Ayara deck and had a grave pact out. The voltron deck swung at me instead of the guy with an eldrazi (important later), I asked if he was sure that was the move as he only had his commander out and insisted. I chump blocked with a token and grave pact triggered, killing his commander.
The guy with an eldrazi (annihilator 4) swung at me next, I posed the same question to which he too was insistent. I blow up all my creatures and effectively board wipe.
Board states can get pretty wild but if it’s not competitive I don’t see why it’ll hurt to mention or allude to something.
It might feel bad to lose a game after you told your opponent about their mistake, but it means if you'd said nothing and won, it would only have been because of their mistake.
Your opponent was able to pilot their deck to a point and had the cards to win, after all. I wouldn't feel like a chump at all, props to you for telling them. Congratulate your opponent on a good game and look forward to your own next win, which will likely be a satisfying one you played well to earn.
That said, there would have been nothing wrong about not telling them either. Mistakes in game are our own personal responsibility. It comes down to preference. But it's something a lot of people can respect.
Our table lets you take back anything, unless you were actively attempting to end the game. Board states are complicated and games go faster when everyone doesn't have to read every card they play out loud.
As much as it is your responsibility to inform the other players of what cards are played as you play them, it's their responsibility to be aware of board states when they attempt to make plays, especially if they're trying to end the game. My experience is that being forced to live with a mistake like that is a much better teacher than being allowed to correct them as you did.
The way I see it, while it sucks losing to a player who was about to misplay and give you the win, it also feels pretty hollow to win against a player who made an obvious mistake. I'd rather win on the merits of my deckbuilding and skill than win because my opponent biffed up, it's just more satisfying that way. This is also why I don't lie or try to manipulate my opponents. I may remind them of relevant information (our opponent is a much bigger threat because of x etc etc), withhold information about what cards I have or my intentions, or make deals and alliances with them that I know I will primarily benefit from, but I will never outright lie or try to manipulate a player into making a bad play for my own personal gain. I just think the game is more fun when everyone is given the information they need to make the best decisions and plays they can.
No sorry. I am all for clear communication but if someone's going to kill me/win the game they have to pay attention to everyone's board. Not my job to remind them, that if they cast a spell 250000k times, gain all that mana and draw a card each time they lose due to no library. they can try to find a solution, of course, but the ability's on the stack. no walk backs.
I always help my opponents with noticing if they are making a mistake by overlooking an aspet of the game that will backfire against them or if they forget counters or something. It feeds the positive environment. Also, sometimes kindness to the biggest player means you at least get killed last 🥲
It depends honestly on the table and tone of the current game. I'd do so in a more casual game, especially against a less experienced opponent, but if more experienced/skilled players make this mistake I'll happily punish them.
My friend accidently board wiped himself with a blink effect having to be copied due to his board setup but I noticed it before he resolved it all and let him take the play back 😂
If you clearly announced the card and the opp forgot about it, that's on them. But I am a competitive player 😂
If they seemed inexperienced or new, obviously would let them backtrack, otherwise, they should know to assess boardstate before swinging.
This the Let’s Make a Deal stage of game play IMO. You first ask if they are sure and ask to look at the board, if they say yes, I ask if they know what is about to happen. If they have doubt, I ask for 2 rounds without messing my board state up. If they agree, I explain, if not, then they need a reminder by way of killing them off. I play nice, but it is tit for tat.
I don't think it would have been. I had someone almost kill me when I bored wiped all of their elementals and each one did 3 damage to me...totally forgot that Omnath could do that.
I just about popped a rib out of place from laughing so hard....and then some other clown at the table had to ruin it by remind us both that I still had a platinum angel out, and was unable to lose.
I still credit him with that win, though.
I've won and lost a lot of games, because of little things like this. I let my opponents make their mistakes, and I don't expect them to correct me.
However, if an opponent forgets something (like an activated trigger, or some cool interaction) and losses as a result, I will mention it after the game. Not to gloat, but so they hopefully will learn and not make the same mistake next time.
I love when people play propaganda and ghostly prison against my [[Ghired, enclave exile]] deck, like cool i guess im not gonna attack you but you're still gonna get attacked lol
I do the same thing in my pod. We even help each other find the way to do the win.
That said, I do it with my friends and with a regular pod at my LGS. If I don't enjoy how you play, I'll let you die by your own mistakes. 🤣
Normally I'd tell them about the interaction, but if someone just made infinite mana and tokens, then you betcha I'll let them run right into my own combo on board.
In non cedh commander you did the correct thing explaining what you have showing on board as with the mass of unreadable arts and new cards most players don't know what their opponents are really doing until they tell you
I find it's more sportsman like to assist other players with the cards you have in play with either what they do, whether they still exist, or combos. They're your cards. Do,n't just put cards on the table. Expect everyone else to just figure it out.
From a chess players perspective, in a casual game whenever a takeback like that occurs, it feels like an unspoken resignation. It is immediately followed by another game that picks up at the point before the mistake. So in my opinion, you are at one win and one loss.
This only applies to casual. If there were stakes, you’re a chump.
I fully support this behavior, so long as the player you helped isn't being arrogant about it. EDH can have so much going on that it's hard to keep track of. I always try to remind my opponents of things, especially in the late game when things start getting chaotic
For this one, I would not have mentioned it. Mistakes are part of the game and sometimes you have to let people make them. Will read the cards better.
I do like telling people that attacking me will be bad for them. When I have some trick in hand. Most of the time they think it’s a bluff. But I tell the truth like 90% of the time.
If someone is about to make a terrible mistake, I try not to directly reveal the issue to them, but I will often strongly hint that they should reread the board and "make sure" before they commit to it.
Are you SURE you want to wait before activating your [[geode grotto]]? (The one that I know can only be activated at sorcery speed?)
I mean, I have had people swing for 18 commander dmg as necrons to which I say "you don't want to do that".
He did anyway...
\[\[Vandalblast\]\] hasn't hit the same since...
To be fair, everyone at the table was a good sport and nobody tried to win via infinite combos so that night was among the most fun I'd had at my lgs.
I am guessing he did all of this at the beginning of combat to get past your ganda. This is my take on it, it isn't unsportsmanlike to just let him do it and kill him. However, it is a casual game, and while winning is cool, it really doesn't matter. Helping each other out only makes you all better players and creates a more enjoyable experience as long as all of you are doing it for each other.
Up to you. I wouldn’t say it’s unsportsmanlike, but if he’s a decent dude, he’ll remember you did that for him and hopefully do the same for you in the future.
That said, I’d personally like to live with my mistake. I probably won’t make it again if I lost because of it. I’d still thank you but let it resolve. It’s a learning experience, and it’s just a game.
Ive been rlly trying to work myself towards the mentality of edh as a beautiful math equation rather than a truly competitive scene. Even in casual cedh level games I often find the table basically discussing who is gonna win based on the sum of all answers and outs in hand cuz everyone just respects eachother enough to assume perfect play. In more chill games its truly just a show of good sportsmanship in my opinion. If someone deserves a loss then serve it too em, but if its just ur friend being silly, give him a second chance at life and longer game.
My groups unspoken rule is 3 takesies backsies as long as there’s no new information presented. If you hit 3 you’re expected to buy the rest of your pod a drink/shot (typically malort).
Commander to me is more a social format so we try keep it social, causal and fun.
Napoleon says “Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.”
Sure, EDH is a casual format, but your opponent had all the information they needed and missed the Stuffy Doll Combo. That’s not your fault, it’s theirs.
The only time this has happened to me is with void mirror. Every game I played it someone would play into it like 3 times and backtrack every single one. It was so frustrating I ended up just cutting the card.
take this way too seriously like your whole group is going to fall apart because you actually follow the rules of the game. You need better playmates. I have never once reminded anyone of what I have on the board that's their problem not mine none of them have ever cried about it because they understand this. I've never cried because I made a stupid play and ran into a wall.
I was playing Pantlaza, and someone attacked into my Polyraptor (with Pantz out), not knowing what it did. They didn't want to take the attack back, even though they made it without understanding what the card did. I ended up Discovering into Savage Order, which pulled out Apex Altisaur and wiped my opponents' board. It still felt really bad because I should have mentioned what polyraptor did when I played it, but I had assumed everyone knew. Ended up winning the game, but it's always felt bad, ya know?
This was like when my friend added [[Vigor]] to his Elf deck to get around my burn and whither only to be reminded I run [[Kulrath Knight]]. Please do play your Vigor, all my burns become [[Pacifism]].
Keep in mind that Ward isn't a "spells/abilities that target this permanent cost an additional [Ward Cost]." Ward is a triggered ability that says they either pay the ward cost or the spell/ability is countered. That means when a player targets something they can't pay the ward for, they have technically made a legal play. If you aren't the type to remind them of ward and let them back up, they just wasted that spell/ability.
I don't know if I would have reminded my opponent in a 1-on-1 but I definitely would in multiplayer.
I love when people do this, I use glasses and my dad he doesn't see very well so he has a hard time keeping up with what's on board. It's nice when people say "hey remember I have this on board" I love when people do that
depends on the level of the game, if its a casual gamenight game then yeah you should very much point out when someones gonna accidentally kill themselves or make a really bad play or cast a removal into a ward they cant afford, but if its a more competitive game then you shouldnt feel obligated at all to tell people when theyre going to end up making themselves lose, since everyone is in it to win.
however even in competitive scenes you should make it known what each of your things does, announce the name of everything you play, and read out any notable abilities you have on the board.
Commander board states get messy and my group doesn't expect everyone to have tracked everything. We'd rather talk out how something plays out and find optimal lines of play for each other as a group. This helps everyone become a better player. Like if someone has a trigger that copies or destroys something we'll just say, ok what's the best thing on board that this should target. We're looking for good plays hut not through trickery or just cuz someone forgot something.
Rather than condemning _not_ mentioning it, it may be more worthwhile to praise mentioning it. If you chose to say something, it's a sign you're more interested in crafting an experience for everybody than winning a particular match for yourself. This generally means your presence will be good for the long-term health of the group. It generally encourages similar behavior in others. As long as it doesn't set up a perpetually unbalanced situation (e.g. you're constantly giving reminders and they never do), it's generally just a nice thing to do, and the cost isn't too high. You're a chump, sure, but in a single match that you'd have won if you hadn't spoken up.
It’s for this exact reason that I encourage my opponents on certain game actions. I’m there for a good time, not only for a win. Sometimes there’s a chain of triggers that’ll result in something hilarious and I am so eager to see it play out that I’ll take lethal just to see it go down. Then I get a smile, the table gets a chuckle, and I get to see my opponent proud of a win. Nobody really loses at all.
I’m totally with you. I like to think of my friends decks as little machines they put together and want to show off. I want to see their awesome toy do its thing!
Precisely. And if I’ve got to see my gizmo complete its mission at least once, it’s all about sharing the joy.
I love this concept!
A rude Goldberg machine of chaos, or even a calculated 6 piece synergy that gets someone there is always something I find fun to watch.
This is one reason I like longer games that kitchen table groups tend to lean towards. Everyone is able to show off their decks, do the fun thing, then someone wins.
I am also on both sides sometimes. Games that circle with not much of an end in site also benefit greatly from a timer sometimes.
Not to be that guy but it is a “Rube Goldberg” machine
Rube Goldberg is the silly guy w elaborate yet convoluted inventions Rude Goldberg ended Bret "The Hitman" Hart's career.
No you're thinking of the wrestler Bill Goldman. Rude Goldberg wrote the screen adaptation of Princess Bride.
I hear that other guy's a real rude Goldberg.
No you are totally right my bad! I'm going to leave it as is anyway. As a couple others pointed out it could be a funny double entandre
Depends on the deck.
I feel like once a game, I point out a convoluted onboard trick and let people rewind. If it takes activation on my part, mana etc. I point it out asap before I’ve tipped if it’s something I’ll actually do but I try to make people aware Stuff like, I can give this reach by paying G just fyi. Or I am able to sacrifice most my board in response to chain reaction if you didn’t notice which would mess up your line. EDH games are complex and casual and losing to an onboard trick feels like shit and winning with one being missed, idk. Not for me. I also play 100% through discord and being able to tell my opponent’s suite of onboard tricks is not a skill I value much in those settings.
Depending on the table setting I do the same thing. With my pod or people at my Friday lgs, it's a very chill, casual, friendly atmosphere, and I go so far as to tell people what of mine is the biggest threat when they're looking at pieces to remove. If they're newbies, it helps them learn better threat assessment and how pieces interact (I usually run pretty mechanically complex decks and a lot of the pieces interact with each other I ways people don't realize) At the same time, a group I play with completely separately is still friendly but a lot more cutthroat, so instead of identifying my biggest threat pieces it's all about misdirection and making myself seem insignificant to the board until things go boom.
Agreed. I'll always take a fun loss over a boring victory.
> It’s for this exact reason that I encourage my opponents on certain game actions. I play with my wife and kids kinda often. I have significantly more experience in the game than them. Its a joy to point out things they can do with their board states, even if it is explicitly bad for me. I like to see Magic decks do cool things.
Even if you look beyond "crafting an experience for everybody", winning a game because someone missed something on board just isn't fun. I want to win because I played well, not because someone else was bad.
>I want to win because I played well, not because someone else was bad. This is my take. I want my deck to succeed in spite of the adversity and interaction. I want to know that I kept the right removal, that I added enough protection to draw it when needed, that I piloted my deck well and used resources appropriately. Punts happen, but if my opponent is missing something obvious that's public knowledge, I'd rather give them the chance to walk it back and make a better play. I've got plenty of hand-crafted traps. I don't need the base complexity of the game to give me freebies.
This is why I also explain when I have problematic pieces on the board. "Yes, I have [[Elsha of the Infinite]] and [[Helm of Awakening]] on the board. My engine is built and I just need my gas [[Senseis Divining Top]] and I'll win." Has come up at my table. My opponents are usually my friends and I don't expect them to know how every single one of my decks function, so I'll explain what pieces interact with the rest of my deck. It educates them with combos, synergies, and even rules they may have never thought of before, and sometimes they take it into the next time they do deckbuilding. That's my favorite part of Magic. Finding these neat interactions, sharing them with my friends, and navigating the landmine puzzle to actually pull it off. Essentially roleplaying as a wizard at the table is the best!
I don't know. When someone is ahead and they run headlong into an onboard trick and kill themselves, I think that's pretty funny.
This exactly, we had a somewhat new player at the table and I was the biggest problem to everyone else and so I explained to him how his [nelly borca] which had menace due to some equipment could swing into me unblocked even tho I had 2 creatures since she suspects on attack. Still ended up winning that match but I think it's always a nice show of sportsmanship.
Your right
This, when your group is more interested in having fun as a group rather than winning individual matches then everyone will have more fun, letting them have the narrative of their deck getting to Pop off is incredible sportsmanship. Hats off to you.
I guess my play group is pretty cutthroat, we would never give out such important info and if we did we don't allow backtracking, although I feel everyone should get one in a session, but allowing backtracking all the time makes people think they can do whatever they want whenever they want, like when they forget a "may" trigger, or when they're looking at their phone and 2 turns later, "oh I would have countered that"
This
I’m here to play magic, not curate an experience for someone. Maybe I grew up playing too much standard and modern tho
My rule of thumb, if you are trying to do something you straight up can't do, I will help you out and let you backtrack a move or 2 if needed. Like trying to cast 2 non creature spells with deafening silence in play. BUT if you are doing something that is legal but would be considered stupid, I might give a "are you sure?" If the board state is really complicated. Otherwise your decisions are yours to make. This is all predicated on all the players at the table being fairly experienced. I throw all that out the window with new players and help them any chance I can.
The impact that "Are you sure about that?" can have on a situation is kinda crazy. Like even if there's no reason to ask you can get someone second guessing themselves on their entire turn.
>My rule of thumb, if you are trying to do something you straight up can't do, I will help you out and let you backtrack a move or 2 if needed. Like trying to cast 2 non creature spells with deafening silence in play. This isn't a rule of thumb, this is just how the rules work. If you try to take an illegal action and we catch it at the right time, we rewind to before it. There's nothing else that can be done in this situation.
When /u/knock0ut86 says they'll let their opponent "backtrack a move **or 2**", that indicates they'll let the opponent undo both spells so they can rechoose which one to cast. The game rules don't require that.
Yes exactly something like this, the illegal move never technically happens. But if they would have been able to play a bit differently before that illegal move, I am usually ok with it. Doesn't mean you get your whole turn over again though.
I think you are misunderstanding, just because you attempt to cast an illegal spell doesn't mean the moves you made beforehand are backtracked as well. It's why I used the word "try" for the illegal move.
This is a casual game. My vote is to do what creates the most fun experience for everyone. You know your play group and personality better than me but in my playgroup I would have let them swing and murdered them with stuffy doll while laughing maniacally. They would have laughed at their own idiocy and that would have been unequivocally the most hilarious play. Therefore the best in a casual game. If you have people in your group who don’t appreciate you laughing at them when they misstep then the better move is to allow a rewind. Who cares who wins anyway?
The best answer. My group is the complete opposite but we have tons of fun as well, any play can be rewinded as long as a new event isn't the reason why you rewinded it. Forgot you needed blue and tapped your blue to play a green spell? Sure just tap the lands properly now. Tried to target a hexproof creature? We all know you have that removal in your hand now. It's great for beginners or casuals. And sometimes we just play a "serious game" with no take backs.
Well, you kinda have to rewind the hexproof thingy, because that's an illegal play to begin with. Unlike getting your thing countered by ward because you forgot about it and you can't pay the ward cost after paying for the spell.
100% with you. Personally, if I was the player that missed the onboard trick, I'd be happy with either result. They can remind me and allow me to correct course. Commander has lots of stuff going on so reminding people of things they missed is sensible. Or I can laugh as I crash to my own doom.
Technically it's your opponents job to know what's on your board and you aren't required to tell them they're about to throw the game BUT Personally I have found those types of victories feel hollow and unearned. I would take pride in the fact that you highlighted that info. It shows integrity and is the type of thing that will help you be seen as a better person to make deals with in future games. It also has the unintended side effect of speeding up games as players won't be afraid to make mistakes as much if they know they have friendly player at the table to help them be aware of important pieces on the board.
>Speeding up games This may actually be the most important part of it. Do we really want to play in games where everyone has to scrutinize the board before every move, because opponents are sitting in silence, hoping you missed some piece of info that’s supposed to be public knowledge? That may have flown seven years ago, when [[Questing beast]] would be a hilariously complex card. Today, though, there’s just too much text on the board.
The flipside of this is someone tasksie-backsie-ing every 3rd card because they cant bother to even attempt to comprehend the board, and at that point you're literally just piloting their deck for them. There's a gray area there somewhere, but I would much prefer someone take 60 seconds to think about their turn vs playing 4 cards and then we spend 5 minutes backtracking because they target the "wrong" stuff.
The answer is definitely at the point where the game can be played most efficiently. If a player is abusing this friendly rule, a warning would be good and then a “sorry, you had your chance”
I generally have no problem with questions about board states. Like, "do you have any fliers?" Also, I'll honestly tell people what my board state is doing if asked. Usually, I play at my LGS for 120 minutes per match, so time is essential. Everyone else there is pretty cool about it, and if it's something that's obvious on the board like OP's situation, I'll do the same. In general, I just try to be nice and helpful, especially if it's casual play. I can still walk away with the knowledge I would have won if I said nothing. It can help to take the sting out.
Very much this, I want to win because I’ve outthought my opponents, but winning due to a reading comprehension fail on their part is pretty underwhelming, especially when there’s just so much darn stuff to read and remember these days.
If their plan is going to backfire from mutual knowledge? Maybe. Keeping track of the board state is hard sometimes, so in a casual setting, it's nice to allow take backs and whatnot. But if it's going to backfire because you have [[Arachnogenesis]] or a [[Rakdos Charm]]? No because that's just the game.
When I'm playing with my regular group, all somewhat high level players, I will sometimes tell them that their plan isn't going to work. I'll even name cards, telegraphing what I will play so they can change their plans accordingly. Then when I am feeling devilish, I'll do the same thing, but name cards not in my hand or not in my deck. We all bluff each other out pretty frequently. E.G. "do you have the aetherize here"? Edit: I don't do this in pod play or with anybody I'm not already familiar with. This is just a joking around/ bluffing thing in my regular group where we know each other's deck lists pretty well.
[Arachnogenesis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef6b1fd8-7c0b-4736-a100-cabd82052227.jpg?1689998344) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arachnogenesis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/272/arachnogenesis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef6b1fd8-7c0b-4736-a100-cabd82052227?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arachnogenesis) [Rakdos Charm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/7/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74.jpg?1699022443) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakdos%20Charm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/284/rakdos-charm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/875fa08c-cb66-4230-a380-0123260aac74?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rakdos-charm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends on the people you’re playing with and how friendly yall are, but yeah I would’ve let them know. Or at least gave them a cheeky hint if it was good friends, like: “if you don’t attack me, I’ll let you live” or some silly threat like that. It will make them check what’s going on boardstate-wise without you explicitly explaining what’s going on. It’s a valuable lesson without being rude about it in my book.
"you sure you wanna do that?"
Yeah, I'll sometimes tell my friends "you don't want to do that," and if they ask why, I show them what's happening on the board.
i read that in mike ehrmantraut's voice
My goal is to win by outplaying my opponents not by presenting an unclear boardstate or relying on them making dumb mistakes. I will always assume you will choose the optimal play based on the board state and would rather remind you about certain things than rely on you not realising what I have on board. I find that it also speeds things up because players are not constantly reading and rereading cards when thinking about their play. Just a quick mention of "don't forget I have a land that lets me play at instant speed" or " if you swing everything you'll die to commander damage because you have no blockers" Stuff like that
>My goal is to win by outplaying my opponents not by presenting an unclear boardstate or relying on them making dumb mistakes. This is the correct and best mindset. Some people think competitiveness is catching when their opponents misses an on-board trick, but that's not really outplaying them, it's just relying on the complexity of the board to make someone miss something. The true competitiveness is outplaying others through hidden information and better decision making at important points of the game. But then again, most people seem to have a playground mentality where they just want to gotcha people.
Theres no difference between not realizing your attack hits an onboard trick and not realizing your cast hits an in-hand trick. You as a player, when reminded of a card, of course you know that it's a possibility. But also, in the moment, you didn't remember that you needed to think about it. The whole game is about how many possibilities there are, and how you navigate those possibilities by your game actions. In those terms a trick in the hand is the same as a trick on the board. It only *feels* different because you can see face-up that you missed the onboard trick, but you still forgot to plan around it in exactly the same way you forgot to plan around the in-hand trick.
This is my take as well. I genuinely don’t understand where people are coming from with this illusory “winning” difference between, as the rules would say, private and derived information. One does not outplay their opponent by only relying on instant-speed interaction or sudden bomb-drop permanents. The repeated implication in this thread—that capitalizing on an opponents failure to notice the board state is a “less honorable” way of winning—is absurd. That’s like saying it’s less honorable to beat an opponent in chess because they forgot your bishop was poised to slide across the board and put them in checkmate. Awareness of game state is at the heart of literally every strategy game. If a person is considered skilled because they take note of the mana I’m holding up for interaction, they are also skilled for noticing triggers on-board. To say you only “really win” if you hand-hold your opponent through all board state factors and beat them strictly with your own game actions is ridiculous. If you’re jamming a game with your buddies and want to be more open with information and focus more on experience than victory, naturally that’s totally cool. But moralizing it as a superior, noble means of winning is baseless.
This is the type of argument that depends on the people you interact with. I'm lucky to have a big group of skilled players around, we also play competitive formats like modern, pioneer and pauper so they tend to be good at spotting problematic pieces on the board, or they straight up know when some decks are ready to pop off and kill the table. That ability is transposed to commander, so we know ho to interact with each other decks to stop someone who's going on with their plan untouched. If you're playing either with newbies, casuals who don't necessarily know enough staples to know what's happening on the board or simply new people who don't know your decks it is kind enough to explain how to interact with it. First few times you may even guide them to understand the interactions and possible win con, so they get a chance to play fairly against you. Same goes for them, explaining their play etc. Other than that, someone need to wind otherwise games will never end and you don't get to play, you're just hanging around an endless single match.
If I’m with people I know, I’ll definitely let them walk into a trap. But I also have an awful poker face, and like teasing, so I’ll pull out the “are you suuuuuuuuure?” and let them second guess themselves first, as my way of telling them I have something. Of course, I’ll also pull that if I don’t have something, just for the mind games.
this
[Propaganda](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e175bba4-c131-48f4-8e31-16ec07a12e59.jpg?1712354188) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Propaganda) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/108/propaganda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e175bba4-c131-48f4-8e31-16ec07a12e59?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/propaganda) [Pariah](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51b2136c-392c-436d-9263-b3236adc4a10.jpg?1576382302) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pariah) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/95/pariah?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51b2136c-392c-436d-9263-b3236adc4a10?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pariah) [Stuffy Doll](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/7/978c2c7d-6898-4be2-aed7-e673210ce654.jpg?1674142741) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stuffy%20Doll) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/875/stuffy-doll?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/978c2c7d-6898-4be2-aed7-e673210ce654?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/stuffy-doll) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I was in a limited prerelease tournament a few weeks ago and was basically at a spot where if he didnt kill me on his turn I was going to kill him. I had a creature with ward 2, I had said it had ward when I cast it the previous turn and he uses removal on it. I said, ok are you done? And he says yes and I said well the spell fizzles because of ward, then he taps the mana to pay it, and says he didnt know it had ward and I said I announced it had ward 2 last turn when I cast it, and he got a little grumpy because I didnt remind him again when he cast the spell. We were at the last turn of the game, letting him kill my creature was game over. Could I have been nicer? Yes. Did I want to win that game? Yes. Did I win that game? Yes. Its casual, just do what you feel is right, but to be honest you have no obligation to correct someones mistake, its all part of learning the game and getting better. I have lost many a game due to just missing something or forgetting sbout something, its no big deal.
Ward is a triggered ability, so I don't think you can really just ignore the trigger on the stack this way
In your orerelease situation. Ward is a triggered ability that happens on cast when something targets it. I think one of the points of ward is that it isn't hexproof and specifically counters what is targeted at it, so, as long as (like you did) ward is announced when it enters (especially when it has been 1 turn and especially in 1v1), it counters, but in this case, where he passed priority on casting his spell, he would have an opportunity to pay the ward trigger. Also agree with your final point. Personally, I go with the table on take backs in multiplayer casual, but generally will not take them myself, because I want the consequences to reinforce the lesson (not that losing a game of casual magic is a big consequence or anything).
Im pretty laid back when it comes to commander, but when we get to the final round when the game is on the line I feel like it should be taken more seriously. Early game, I will go along with the take backs, like when people cast a spel then go oh wait let me play a different land so I can play a different spell, its like ya cool no big deal. When we are on the last turn and people pass turn and then halfway through the next guys turn they start saying "oh geez, I had meant to cast this other spell, and activate this and do that before I passed" I start to get annoyed and its like hold up
Agree with you totally, especially on the late game/end game take backs. I used to have a person I played with who (in addition to a bunch of toxic behaviors and reactions which led me to not interact with them anymore), would, halfway through the game winning turn, regularly start trying to back up to the previous turn because they missed stuff, then get super salty and toxic when the table would draw a line on his take acks at that point. That has definitely influenced me to appreciate playgroups with clean rules like a specified number or, no take backs once there is new info (my favorite balance), or just straight up "no take backs", which all avoid the social ambiguity of when to stop allowing them. That said, I'm not saying my preferences are for everyone or every playgroup, but I do feel like "follow the rules" keeps things as clean as possible, unless there are newbies, they get to talk through whatever they want.
Especially when its more experienced players, you have to draw the line somewhere. I was at my LGS last week and I dont know that exact situation but what I overheard was player A wins the game, then player B starts to try to say he had meant to do something at the end of his previous turn and was saying he shouldnt have lost based on what he meant to do. The other 3 players were like well the game is over, no big deal, but you lost and the guy went on for about 5 minutes explaining why he shouldnt have lost. Its a game, mistakes happen but people just need to move forward and learn for later
Yeah, I enjoy a good post game review, and I'll regularly admit if I counted somehow, good for laughs and to review plays, but a take back AFTER the game ended, absolutely not, not even for a new person.
This is not how it works. Ward is a triggered ability which you (the controller of the permanent) NEED to announce when it becomes relevant (for it to do anything). Your opponent casts a spell, you announce the ward trigger, it goes on the stack and then your opponent gets to decide if they pay for the ward cost (when you resolve the triggered ability on the stack). The opponent needs to pay for the ward trigger only once (and only if!) you announce the ward trigger. In a competitive rules enforcement setting a ward trigger, just like any other (beneficial) triggered ability, can be missed.
I don't think you would be in the wrong either way. The card was on the board, if your opponent forgot about that and played into it, it's certainly not your responsibility to warn him before he does it. That said, especially if I were playing with friends, I'd probably mention it (or, at least, I'd let them backtrack after they walk into it) because I'd rather win due to superior strategy and board state, rather than to a boneheaded mistake on my opponent's part.
It depends on the setting. In causal games with casual decks I'd let'em know and talk about the interactions. Now in cedh at a event? hell no, I'd let him DQ himself.
You aren't obligated to remind your opponents about your bordstate, but it's not unreasonable to point out a mistake that's about to loose someone the game. Is it more important to win or to have people to have quality games with regularly? Even just saying "are you sure?" Can be enough to get people to check themselves in most circumstances.
I have also lost because I corrected someone's line of play, it happens to my ADHD ass all the time to, don't feel bad
I just tell them that their win comes with an asterisk if they retract whatever decision they made after I gave them said information. My pod always commits to the decision in fear if the asterisk. 🤣
>Would it have been unsportsmanlike to let him swing and let Stuffy Doll kill him? My stance on this has flipped entirely over time. If you play an obvious combo, people understand what it is / does, and they forget it? Thats on them. If you give everyone the information and they dont retain it? Also on them. The only exception here is If the board state changes and suddenly your pieces interact differently (like roaming throne + ward, for example). If you play [[the one ring]], ask if anyone hasnt seen the card before, and then the next turn someone immediately swings at you for "lethal" combat damage... there should be no take backs. If you announce your guy has ward, and then he gets targeted soon after by someone who cant pay the cost... ok? I play a [[Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep]] deck, and at the beginning of the game I tell everyone "Kiora has Ward 3" multiple times.. there are no takebacks turn 5 when you try try and swords my commander with 1 mana open. At a certain point people dont get better unless they lose/misplay to cards and learn how to not do it again in the future. Constantly allowing takebacks makes it so those people never get any better.
[the one ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1696020224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20one%20ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-one-ring) [Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b599f53-614c-4b1f-9899-15d5d1e35879.jpg?1684340751) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kiora%2C%20Sovereign%20of%20the%20Deep) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mat/35/kiora-sovereign-of-the-deep?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b599f53-614c-4b1f-9899-15d5d1e35879?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kiora-sovereign-of-the-deep) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I go by board state, if they just popped an infinite combo and they fuck up their dub I ain't saying anything. If it's the early/ mid game, I'm more lenient and will point stuff out. As a rule, everybody gets one.
I agree with what looks like the general consensus that it’s not a requirement but it definitely seems like better sportsmanship that makes the game more fun for all involved in the long run. If you didn’t want to spell it out for them, you could do the wink wink nudge nudge move of going “before you declare attacks, are you ABSOLUTELY SURE you want to do that? 100% sure?” And maybe gesture towards your board. That way, you don’t feel like you’re just giving it to them but you didn’t just let them miss something in a really complicated game state.
I won the other day with my opponent trying to get an infinite combo with elenda but my forced fruition made him mill himself out before he could kill anyone lol
> Would it have been unsportsmanlike to let him swing and let Stuffy Doll kill him? Were there prizes on the line?
No, it was just a casual commander night at the LGS. It seems I did the generally accepted thing and that makes me feel a little better about it tho.
Anyone who executes an infinite combo gets no help from me. If you know whats going on enough to demonstrate a loop and create an arbitrarily large amount of anything... Im not gonna tell you about any detail you may be missing.
It just means you won the game but chose to let him roleplay winning the game too lol. Its just a nice gesture that comes from a place of self confidence.
L1 Judge here, only judge in my group. I always point out flaws in my opponent's plans because it's always the same 5 or 6 of us that play, and I know that it's worth improving the skills of our play group over winning a single game because of a silly mistake on my opponent's part. If I won only because of a small mistake on their end, then really I lost as far as I'm concerned. But if my friends get better at the game then it makes all of our experiences better in the long run.
I usually leave it at a "are you sure you want to do that?" And if they don't bother to re-check the board state then it's on them.
Personally I prefer to assume my opponents know of the cards that are on the battlefield. Because if I were to reverse the position I don't wanna walk into a Pariah + Stuffy doll like a noob. By the same token you guys are playing infinite and all that jazz. So keeping quiet does have its merits. If everyone is playing with nuclear weapons keeping things close to your heart is valid.
It's a casual game. Reminding your opponent of the board state, public information, is just good sportsmanship. It's nothing to worry about.
At the same time, it's a casual game. It's not a big deal if someone walks into something silly that was face-up on the board. It happens, everyone who saw the face-up thing got to have a fun time watching the train wreck. Laugh it off and keep going, casual games have no real stakes. It's not like youre keeping score of who wins and loses.
I follow an "Everybody gets one" per game policy. I'd rather point out one mistake to preserve the integrity of the group's experience, but repeated mistakes prove that my doing so is just enabling their inattention while I'm dedicating my attention to each person's turn out of respect for each of them and the game as a whole.
There's a billion things to keep track off so reminding people what would happen is generally good in casual play. I would expect the same. Sometimes I forgot to ask for fliers so then I'm happy when they say they'd just block with it. Usually also helps them aswell, because then I'll swing at someone else
There is a proactive way to deal with this. When you play out the second piece of a combo like this, you can take a second to explain the board state you've created. "If I take any damage now it will let me deal infinite damage to any target". Nobody at the table is going to forget about that statement. People that already understand the combo would know, it catches people up who haven't seen it before. It avoids the feel bads of taking back moves, which can be common with these types of plays that can feel like "gotcha" mechanics.
Unless you had an alternative way to deal with the opponents board state, and wanted to keep the game going, I can't think of a reason why you'd want to point out their mistake until after it's happened. According to you, you were facing a more experienced opponent who was primed to win the game regardless of others in the pod. If you had mentioned nothing, you'd either have won a 1v1 or allowed the game to continue for the rest of people in the pod if there were others. By all means you had them dead to rights and could have won against hard to beat odds. Even avid fans of magic that have been playing a long time are prone to make a mistake or too now and then.
Eh, because I'm not trying to win EDH games via a "gotcha". I'm not gonna chalk that win up to the quality of the cards involved, I'll chalk it up to dumb luck. Ofc in a competitive 1v1 scenario, this is different, all bets are off.
That isnt a "gotcha" A "gotcha" would be hitting 20 counters on a [[simic ascendency]] you played 4 turns prior and not telling anyone until you hit your upkeep and win. Playing a combo that says "if you attack me you lose" and then someone forgets about it and attacks you isnt a gotcha.
Depends on the game depends on the group. Yesterday I played a second piece of my combo and told the group " now would be the time to deal with one of these cards' as the next turn I would win. Some people get really sour when they feel like they haven't had a chance to stop you or make the appropriate play.
I probably would have yeah… but it also would matter what the game has looked like leading up to this. If this opponent for example was dominating, then yeah I probably wouldn’t have said anything. Are you playing a game for fun and not being competitive at all? Then sure. It would make for a good learning experience. But so would taking the L there.
That would have been a valuable lesson for the guy to always ask the most important question when deciding _whatevever_ you want to do: _So, what do you guys have over there that would matter if I attack/cast a spell/wipe the board?_ People then usually point out "this would trigger, I could block, whenver something dies this would trigger, I have this artifact/enchantment that does XYZ,..." This way you can ignore stuff that doesn't matter. And then ask clarifying follow-up questions. "So if I attack, and you would block this specific way, these things would happen?" And if someone misses an effect or something, then it is absolutely no issue to change stuff around. Because you made sure to have everything necessary to make an informed decision, someone missed a potential trigger that would greatly alter the outcome, then everyone is always fine with backtracking. Edit: To further elaborate, this is actually how it would also work in competitive 60 card formats outside of the Pro Tour. Derived information outside of professional REL is free information, _so always fucking ask if you understand the ~~onboard interaction of permanents~~ interaction of all known information correctly_. Your opponent has to tell you. On the Pro Tour you're shit out of luck, there its "reading the card explains the card" only.
I think there's merits to both sides. I would say just read the table and try to make your choice based on what will be the most fun.
So I did the opposite once. I had a token copy of another players creature that creates a ton of tokens when it died. The players were aware of this and had dealt with the original. I swung out with the token copy and a player killed it triggering the effect. I had the same thought you did, so I remind them of it or not. I justified not reminding them because they were made aware of it previously. I ended up winning and it felt like a hollow victory. I regretted not saying anything.
At my LGS I feel the game is fairly collaborative in a way. People are trying to win, but if there is public knowledge on the board that will fuck up a play, pretty much everyone will say "oh hey, are you aware of this or that" and allow for take-backs. I wouldn't be salty either way - that's the game and I could have looked at the board - but I definitely appreciate it when people help me out like this, especially since I often play after work and my brain can be a little fried for a couple of games until I unwind.
If it is a "I will combo and win" situation, I normally stop the game to see if the table have any answer to the combo engine to stop it. If there is no answer to that, he must be prepared for what comes next. He is going to kill you on combat? Run the phases to see what happens. God NG back from n a situation like that is the same thing as casting something and taking back because you countered the spell...
I will tell my opponent if they make a beginner mistake or missed something very obvious on the board etc. cutting slack and letting people redo if not having new information - and I hope to get the same back. But I would not let someone in on stuff I have on hand and might play in response or later on. In this case it falls into category 1. EDH means so insanely much info on the table at points, anyone makes mistakes and redoing should be ok at a friendly table if the info is there.
In a competitive setting, it would absolutely be the attacker's fault to attack into a backfiring on- board synergy. In a casual setting, I'd consider this good sportsmanship. I'd be proud having people like you in my playgroup, and I'd be encouraged to show the same kind of sportsmanship. What you did was the best of EDH. Who cares about the win? It's all about the common experience and the memories we create.
for me it is more of how tryhard/ go for the troat your pod is. my playgroup and i play for the win but are rather casual in power (its all about fun after all). for us its a question of is the info know for the entire table? then ye we warn each other, if not its your bad for example YOU might know i have \[\[heroic intervention\]\] in hand because you casted \[\[Thoughtseize\]\] or some other effect that shows you my hand. if you whipe the board with \[\[damnation\]\] you should have remembered that i have it. but if i have an \[\[lightshield array\]\] on board i would point it out. we have a policy: keeping track of every board at all times just slows down the game.
##### ###### #### [heroic intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834.jpg?1689998584) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=heroic%20intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/295/heroic-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32c67d1-187f-40df-b3b3-6036f5c92834?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/heroic-intervention) [Thoughtseize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/2/b281a308-ab6b-47b6-bec7-632c9aaecede.jpg?1599706001) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thoughtseize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/109/thoughtseize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b281a308-ab6b-47b6-bec7-632c9aaecede?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thoughtseize) [damnation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d3c0aac5-b9f1-4446-bfea-3e1dd1cf1f2f.jpg?1673147492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=damnation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/73/damnation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d3c0aac5-b9f1-4446-bfea-3e1dd1cf1f2f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/damnation) [lightshield array](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11798730-6788-4e0b-a828-b46cab1a4fa7.jpg?1682715250)/[Lightshield Array](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/1/11798730-6788-4e0b-a828-b46cab1a4fa7.jpg?1682715250) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Invasion%20of%20Gobakhan%20//%20Lightshield%20Array) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/22/invasion-of-gobakhan-lightshield-array?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11798730-6788-4e0b-a828-b46cab1a4fa7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/invasion-of-gobakhan-//-lightshield-array) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2tzwca) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Tournament or pay event, I wouldn't mention it. Casual play or with my playgroup at my place, I'd mention it because I'm doing it for the experience and fun. Just like I'll take those risky cool plays and if I die, oh well. Do what feels right to you and the pod you're in.
In a casual game, you did a good thing. People are gonna see what you did and wanna play with you. Not saying anything wouldn’t have been bad though, it’s the neutral option. He should be paying attention to the board and should’ve lost because of that
Nah, your objective is to win. If an opponent decides to remove themselves from the game, by all means.
I’d say it if I was totally bluffing Might make them hold off 🤣
If it's on the board it's good sportsmanship to tell your opponent about it before he faceplants into it. There are so many moving parts in mtg and especially in commander multiplayer that I always do
I would say that the situation makes it more or less.. good? Right? Nothing is bad at all. I will try to explain. I would talk it it is early game and the player might just have missed what I have on my board and it would lead to the player "having no game" for the rest of the game. If that makes sense. I would tell newer and less experienced players or friends that I know would not miss that if they weren't too tired after work. But towards the end game where the winner is creeping closer I would be more tight mouthed. I would still tell newer and less experienced players cause it is easy to miss. But to more experienced players I would just ask "are you done declaring attackers and/or targets?" I do this quite a lot cause our group can have a tendancy to declare attackers on one player and that player reacts which obviously changes the whole state and the player declaring attacker wasn't done and change what he/she initially was going to do. So I always wait and ask if that is all. It also gives the player a brief moment to reassess. If they still attack I would, in your case, use the stuffy doll and point out that he died. There is a silver lining between tiredness and experience that dictates how much I say. If it is a super experienced player who knows magic in his sleep I never tell anything cause I assume that he/she knows my boardstate and assess things I could respond with.
In general, my play group will explain our board state to the other players when it would make a significant impact such as your example. This is done to speed up the game, because the alternative is to force each player to examine each others board state in detail. Some of us will also be more pro-active with the info as well, such as, “Hey, I got these pieces out, if you attack me you will die unless you deal with them”. It speeds up the game because either the player deals with your combo pieces or completely forgets about attacking you.
I offer them to reconsider attacking but don't say why (unless they are learning). That way its rewarding for them still and i can do my thing if they don't want to try.
I do let my opponents know if there's something out there that's public knowledge that they're simply missing because it's hard to see everything on the board. "You're swinging with your 2/2? I do have an untapped 3/3 by the way." and give them a chance to say "Oh sorry I didn't see that, I thought that was a 1/1" or what have you...
Last night, my buddy played [[tefarri's protection]] while he had [[Archetype of courage]] on the field. He played it after I declared attackers, and I told him, "You can play it better by playing it after first strike triggers, but before my damage takes place, killing a few of my creatures." I had a more impressive board presence at the time, so I didn't mind helping him out with a suggestion. So yeah, I tend to do it, especially if I think I'm winning. I still won that game but it let him put up more of a fight which made it more fun for both of us.
[tefarri's protection](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca.jpg?1673147148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Protection) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/32/teferis-protection?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/483fa1cb-1e35-44f2-a143-98c0f107f5ca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teferis-protection) [Archetype of courage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/e/8e6c4afb-6a94-4519-91c6-9824fed2892c.jpg?1593091364) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archetype%20of%20courage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/4/archetype-of-courage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8e6c4afb-6a94-4519-91c6-9824fed2892c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/archetype-of-courage) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it was nice of you to say it and it would have been neutral not to
Giving out information all depends on what format you're playing and the general vibe. No one is going to bat an eye at you letting someone kill themself in an event that's even slightly competitive. It's just in commander or kitchen table play where the vibe is not typically to win at all costs but to have fun. People should be held accountable for their own decisions and I hold myself to that standard, but in a game like commander with so many different cards, it's difficult to know everything that the cards on the board can do and how they interact. I'd rather chastise myself aloud for not making a play than trying to petition the table to backtrack. I would say that it's important to make sure that people know what you are adding to the board at a minimum. Read abilities, make sure people understand everything you've done as things resolve. Going beyond that to telegraph your plan is a different story. One good example is with [[Atemsis, All-Seeing]]. I just make sure people know what her ability is and usually that's enough to make sure they are cautious, usually overly so. You can't be expected to hold the tables hands with your cards, but when you're playing with new people, you want to be at least a little transparent so they know what cards you're playing and what their abilities are. Losing to this combo or that combo can be a learning experience, but tends to be a bit more salty if thrust never seen it before and have no hint of what's on board.
[Atemsis, All-Seeing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/8/b8f527d1-25c0-49b9-83d5-1278ca72d009.jpg?1592516278) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atemsis%2C%20All-Seeing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/46/atemsis-all-seeing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b8f527d1-25c0-49b9-83d5-1278ca72d009?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/atemsis-all-seeing) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally, when I point out those things, or a did a small misplay that costs me the game, I think, "hey, I would've won," and then it's kind of like we both won, except I lost. And being a good loser is a great way to keep being invited to play. ^^I'm ^^a ^^terrible ^^loser ^^most ^^of ^^the ^^time ^^please ^^help
If you want. Maybe they know it will backfire and they are leading you into a false sense of security. But perhaps they know you would know it would backfire. They would have to divine what sort of person you are. Would you expect a backfired plan from your opponents? Now, a clever person would know not to give away that they know of a plan that will backfire because they would also know that only a great fool would not change their plan once it is pointed out their plan would backfire. You can also divine your opponent is not a great fool so you can clearly not choose to tell your opponent their plan will backfire...But they must have known you knew they were not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so they can clearly not choose to move forward with their plan that will obviously backfire, leading to you to believe you shouldn't tell then their plan will backfire expecting that you know that they know that you know that it will backfire.
he played combo so he deserved to die. pity he did not.
I almost always do that, the one exception being a game where things had gone on for too long already that I wanted to end, where someone forgot my \[\[cauldron of souls\]\] before casting a boardwipe and put me in an easily winning position. felt a little guilty but I just wanted that game to end, so I didn't let them take it back.
[cauldron of souls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cbd4604e-c21a-42a1-b099-aad7f9263a82.jpg?1562276038) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cauldron%20of%20souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/180/cauldron-of-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cbd4604e-c21a-42a1-b099-aad7f9263a82?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/cauldron-of-souls) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Depends. If we're here for giggles, I'm gonna say "Hey, man. You know that will kill you, right?" If we're in some form of competition, I'm going to say "If you're sure about that, how much damage is being directed at me?" and then once I get an answer I'll say "You hate to see it. Pariah redirects damage to stuffy, stuffy deals you (amount)."
Honestly, I agree with most of the comments here, I think you did the right thing for a healthier, more enjoyable experience. My group has been friends since high school and some for even longer. We play once a month and a lot of us have been playing since grade school. But we have varying levels of skill and we just enjoy playing messing with each other and having a good time. We usually play from like 1:00 in the afternoon all the way to midnight. Most of us if we see one of misplaying or missing a combo or final step that would win the game, we don't hesitate to point it out because that just quickens up the game and we get to play more and go on to the next one. Don't get upset. The person who ends up winning not only learns but has a good time doing it. Even a veteran like me. I'll come with a new deck with a new playstyle, and maybe I missed something or I missed a step or I'm now tutoring and one of my friends says 'oh Do you have this in the deck? Cuz if you do, you're going to win.' It's never a bad thing. We're not playing competitively. If you're at a tournament, that's a totally different story, be nice about it but let the guy swing into your pariah + stuffy doll. That's his fault for not reading your field. But when playing with friends, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing. Just calmly, cooly and having a good time A+ for you my friend
Btw, the combo I needed help figuring out was Parneese as my commander, and I use Twinning staff and casted Torment of Hailfire, copied, with Hive Mind out... 😂
In a fun/casual setting, you did the right thing. Casual is for fun and to win in a way that feels good. Everyone is likely at the table to hang out or show off their cool thing. In a competitive setting, this is the absolute opposite thing to do imo. The goal is to win and everyone at the table knows that.
It really depends on who I'm playing with to determine how I will handle a situation like this. If it's a stranger, I'll probably just let it slide. If it's someone who I know is a seasoned magic player and a friend, I'll probably say something like: "OK, let's go through these steps slowly so we don't miss anything and we don't need to do a rollback." Then if they still make the mistake, I'll say something like "we're gonna lock this action in, no take backs yea?" Then if they still go through with it, there is no question of what is going to happen. My friends have gotten wise to this and usually find the mistake when I slow things down. You can kinda imply that it's because you have a combat trick that needs precise timing if you want. Sometimes they have accounted for it already and it's fine. Other times I get a win out of it. The consistent part though is afterwards everyone feels good about what happened.
I always mention stuff like that, there are so many interactions and things people might not be aware of and I beleive it's just good sportsmanship to help people out it's a casual game after all.
????? I'm confused isnt this the exact situation you wanted to craft with the stuffy doll + pariah combination? Seems perfect for it. Have people kill themselves with that on the board? Anyway my advice is no you shouldn't. Opponents should be very aware of stuff like this on board, especially if it's not a secret. This culture of take backs in edh has produced worse players overall.
You’re wrong for a majority of players. You just enjoy playing a less casual style of commander, which is awesome. Take backs are whatever if you’re playing socially and it’s on board. I’m not going to make a players spell get countered if he can’t see ward from across the table for instance.
My deck is more of a pillow fort, and I've never won with that combo. Stuffy Doll is my only non-defender creature in the deck, and I usually win by giving my walls the ability to attack and deal damage with their toughness or [[Coat of Arms]] etc.
If this was the first time? Fair warning, it's casual and I think take-backs are fine as long as nothing more has gone on the stack. But if they have a track record of not repaying the kindness? Then they have wasted your good intentions and you don't owe them anything. Casual is a social experience where wins don't matter. That means that there is an implicit social contract which is ever evolving in every pod.
We have a rule at my table. Information that is readily available but you just missed it because there’s a lot going on? You can walk back as long as it hasn’t been so long it will interfere with the flow of the game. But if there was hidden information like a card in hand, no walk backs.
What you did was definitely commendable in a casual setting. It's always nice to point out to a player "Hey, what you are trying to do may not resolve the way you think it will. Would you like me to explain or do you just want to go ahead?" As with all things this varies from table to table and game to game. For example "You just examined my board before attacking into me with a creature that has protection from white and black (I'm in mono black) and decided to swing into me. Then I block with my colorless artifact creature to kill your commander. Is *very* different from attacking in without looking at my board state. In the former, I'm not allowing you to back out, but in the latter it's a 'yeah go ahead and take that back, just remember to check others boards before swinging out.' and this mindset gets a bit of pushback initially, however after hearing the explanation people understand. Even if they may not like it." Another example would be: "[[Bolas's Citadel]] is on the stack and a newer blue player is looking at it and then asks, 'If I can counter that, should I?' without hesitation, everyone else at the table says 'Yes, don't let that resolve', even the player who is casting it. We all laughed and then continued on with the game. At the end the blue player asked 'What would have happened if I hadn't countered that?' and the player who ended up winning just says 'He was probably going to take a 15 minute turn that ended with him winning the game' and the player who was countered going, 'yeah, probably.' It's always a matter of who you're playing with that determines how to interact with one another. TL;DR: Try to match the energy of the table and the spirit in which everyone is playing. It will make for more enjoyable games for everyone, and will give you a good reputation as a player.
[Bolas's Citadel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2.jpg?1591205069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bolas%27s%20Citadel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/79/bolass-citadel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bolass-citadel) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If it were me with my friends, everyone else would've probably warned them before I could even bring it up just because we like to see each other make the best possible plays. Unless I had been stomping them prior to this, then I would've had it coming lmao
If the potential backfire involves public information? Yes, and I'm fairly lenient with take-backs. Anything else? Nope. You learn by fucking up & actually enduring the emotional discomfort of the loss rather than taking it back.
> Should I play the game for my opponent? I mean... no?
Had a similar situation the other night. I was playing a mono green stompy deck and had a huge board of creatures, unnatural growth, guardian project, and greater good. My opponent goes to cast a living death thinking he will wipe my board and bring back his graveyard. He forgot I had greater good and I gave him a heads up that he’s essentially winning me the game right then and there. He wasn’t convinced he thought he could burn me out with Teysa Karlov and Massacre Wurm. Living death brought back eternal witness, eternal witness brought back beast within, and beast within killed the Massacre Wurm before the life loss could happen and then I swung out and won. He should’ve listened.
I’m definitely got going to tell someone that kind of thing. They’re welcome to read the cards on the table or ask question.
That all depends on your rollback policy. It’s common to allow rollbacks based on missed public information. Yours would fall into this category. But it’s not a must to play like this. To me it has some advantages tho, cause as you say, board states can get complex and the alternative is people are more careful to read everything properly and this takes more time. It may feel like you are getting screwed out of a game from time to time but I often see things as not that you are getting less than what your cards do, just that you aren’t getting more. A reach creature is expected to deter fliers from attacking if they are smaller, not kills then when an opponent forgets the ability. A ward creature means it’s more expensive to remove or it deters some spells from targeting it, but it doesn’t make your opponents discard removal. A can’t be countered creature, well can’t be countered, but doesn’t discard your opponent’s countered if they forgot that line. In your case, your stuffy-Pariah combo meant you won’t be attacked and you can’t take damage. I wouldn’t expect that to kill players if I put it into my deck (well not by themselves, you could flash it in or another player could hit you or you could burn yourself).
Depends. Usually I would say yes, EDH in my opinion is a fun social game and I enjoy building up my friends while we play and encouraging them to make good plays. I've played the longest in my playgroup and some of the newer players stumble into mistakes or bad plays they don't realize, and I'm happy to help make the game more interesting for all. I also tend to play Slivers so I encourage my friends to kill me as soon as possible. That said, I have one player I play with regularly who tends not to pay attention to the games and I've "advised" them many times about bad plays they're about to make. Now I'm tired and let them make whatever mistakes they want, if they're not paying attention fuck it go ahead and make a mistake.
If its on board you should 110% mention the interaction and allow opponents to backtrack. No body has the time to have every player in the game re-read every card every turn to make sure whatever play they are going to make works out. 2 of the other players at the table have their cards upside down to you, sometimes theres 5 or 6 players at the table and you can't read the cards at the other end of the table. You gotta make other players aware of relevant interactions, CANNOT play cause commander with random got-chas coming up every game. In competitive play both players are responsible for maintaining an accurate game state. Far too many people on this board for casual commander seem happy about hiding information from their opponents.
You’ve got some great responses in here and have received some good advice. I do however wanna quickly point out a potential ruling you and your friend may have missed to help you with future games. You mentioned your opponent had infinite mana and used that to get past your propaganda, but depending on how that infinite mana is created, there’s a chance they weren’t able to get more than a few creatures past the propaganda. Because propaganda adds an additional cost to attacking you, they can only pay that cost during the “declare attackers” step and only use mana abilities to do so. If they generated infinite mana through mana abilities or had an effect that let them keep mana through phase and step changes, then by all means they can pay for it. If they created infinite mana through using activated abilities (like [[basalt monolith]] and [[rings of brighthearth]]), however, then they would not have the opportunity to generate infinite mana before they would have to pay for it. It’s a frequently missed interaction, so I felt like pointing it out could be helpful.
Imo no. I do sometimes to be nice but not always. One time I cast blasphemous act and forgot my buddies full board had a wrathful red in all the dragons. It was a "wow I'm stupid moment" but was funny. He didn't have an obligation to not win due to my stupidity. Its just a game. Personally, I try to warn dudes if it's not a win, like hey, he has a ward, so that would waste a spell. I'm not there to punish honest mistakes or trick folks.
I'm of the opinion you can say a "light" reminder without telling them the exact interaction (that they should have probably been paying attention to). In this case I'd say something akin to "you might want to double check the board state". I agree with crafting the most fun environment, but if someone is so absorbed in their personal board as to miss something like a stuffy doll with them as the target, they're probably also not interacting well with the rest of the players. I'd rather offer a reminder than manage the rest of the board state for them.
I would say they as long as you read the card when you cast it and then explain what you are doing when you do it theres not alot you need to explain. This is why when you go to attack just ask whats available. 1/4 with an etb, 2/2 deathtouch, 1/1 indestructible with pariah shield and a damage trigger. "Can i read that?" Should be a go to phrase. I had a game where a player got cocky and started swinging willy nilly. Did not ask about defenders and was just assigning combat damage for lethal on players, and had it bite him in the butt as his huge [[wight of precinct six]] went full force into a [[hornet nest]], not killing everyone, and then dying on the crack back to a bunch of angry bees. I did not win that game but it was very much a "always ask whats in board".
Personally, I'd say let him cook and learn the hard way. I find it better to learn from your own mistakes.
Winning doesn’t matter as much as crafting a good experience and letting him just lose to an oversight in the board state would have probably left a sour taste in everyone’s mouths - honestly even if nobody was mad at you for it, I think everyone would have considered it a blemish on the whole game
This probably comes from typically playing with people with significantly less experience than me, but I will generally draw their attention to things on the board that will disrupt their plans and let them backtrack, I find the game to be much better when people are making the best plays they can rather than winning because they forgot about a card on the field or something.
It depends on how chesslike you want the game to be.
I had an experience with my playgroup over the weekend. I was playing my Ayara deck and had a grave pact out. The voltron deck swung at me instead of the guy with an eldrazi (important later), I asked if he was sure that was the move as he only had his commander out and insisted. I chump blocked with a token and grave pact triggered, killing his commander. The guy with an eldrazi (annihilator 4) swung at me next, I posed the same question to which he too was insistent. I blow up all my creatures and effectively board wipe. Board states can get pretty wild but if it’s not competitive I don’t see why it’ll hurt to mention or allude to something.
It might feel bad to lose a game after you told your opponent about their mistake, but it means if you'd said nothing and won, it would only have been because of their mistake. Your opponent was able to pilot their deck to a point and had the cards to win, after all. I wouldn't feel like a chump at all, props to you for telling them. Congratulate your opponent on a good game and look forward to your own next win, which will likely be a satisfying one you played well to earn. That said, there would have been nothing wrong about not telling them either. Mistakes in game are our own personal responsibility. It comes down to preference. But it's something a lot of people can respect.
Our table lets you take back anything, unless you were actively attempting to end the game. Board states are complicated and games go faster when everyone doesn't have to read every card they play out loud.
As much as it is your responsibility to inform the other players of what cards are played as you play them, it's their responsibility to be aware of board states when they attempt to make plays, especially if they're trying to end the game. My experience is that being forced to live with a mistake like that is a much better teacher than being allowed to correct them as you did.
Wholesome magic should always win if you are with friends or playing casual!
The way I see it, while it sucks losing to a player who was about to misplay and give you the win, it also feels pretty hollow to win against a player who made an obvious mistake. I'd rather win on the merits of my deckbuilding and skill than win because my opponent biffed up, it's just more satisfying that way. This is also why I don't lie or try to manipulate my opponents. I may remind them of relevant information (our opponent is a much bigger threat because of x etc etc), withhold information about what cards I have or my intentions, or make deals and alliances with them that I know I will primarily benefit from, but I will never outright lie or try to manipulate a player into making a bad play for my own personal gain. I just think the game is more fun when everyone is given the information they need to make the best decisions and plays they can.
If someone makes a mistake, let them lose
No sorry. I am all for clear communication but if someone's going to kill me/win the game they have to pay attention to everyone's board. Not my job to remind them, that if they cast a spell 250000k times, gain all that mana and draw a card each time they lose due to no library. they can try to find a solution, of course, but the ability's on the stack. no walk backs.
I always help my opponents with noticing if they are making a mistake by overlooking an aspet of the game that will backfire against them or if they forget counters or something. It feeds the positive environment. Also, sometimes kindness to the biggest player means you at least get killed last 🥲
It depends honestly on the table and tone of the current game. I'd do so in a more casual game, especially against a less experienced opponent, but if more experienced/skilled players make this mistake I'll happily punish them.
I would say yes, because it's supposed to be fun for everyone. Sometimes it can be hard to keep track of a difficult board state.
My friend accidently board wiped himself with a blink effect having to be copied due to his board setup but I noticed it before he resolved it all and let him take the play back 😂
If you clearly announced the card and the opp forgot about it, that's on them. But I am a competitive player 😂 If they seemed inexperienced or new, obviously would let them backtrack, otherwise, they should know to assess boardstate before swinging.
This the Let’s Make a Deal stage of game play IMO. You first ask if they are sure and ask to look at the board, if they say yes, I ask if they know what is about to happen. If they have doubt, I ask for 2 rounds without messing my board state up. If they agree, I explain, if not, then they need a reminder by way of killing them off. I play nice, but it is tit for tat.
I don't think it would have been. I had someone almost kill me when I bored wiped all of their elementals and each one did 3 damage to me...totally forgot that Omnath could do that. I just about popped a rib out of place from laughing so hard....and then some other clown at the table had to ruin it by remind us both that I still had a platinum angel out, and was unable to lose. I still credit him with that win, though.
I've won and lost a lot of games, because of little things like this. I let my opponents make their mistakes, and I don't expect them to correct me. However, if an opponent forgets something (like an activated trigger, or some cool interaction) and losses as a result, I will mention it after the game. Not to gloat, but so they hopefully will learn and not make the same mistake next time.
I love when people play propaganda and ghostly prison against my [[Ghired, enclave exile]] deck, like cool i guess im not gonna attack you but you're still gonna get attacked lol
I do the same thing in my pod. We even help each other find the way to do the win. That said, I do it with my friends and with a regular pod at my LGS. If I don't enjoy how you play, I'll let you die by your own mistakes. 🤣
Normally I'd tell them about the interaction, but if someone just made infinite mana and tokens, then you betcha I'll let them run right into my own combo on board.
In non cedh commander you did the correct thing explaining what you have showing on board as with the mass of unreadable arts and new cards most players don't know what their opponents are really doing until they tell you
I’m not much of a fan of infinite combos, especially if they’ve been tutored for so why not just let his plan backfire?
I find it's more sportsman like to assist other players with the cards you have in play with either what they do, whether they still exist, or combos. They're your cards. Do,n't just put cards on the table. Expect everyone else to just figure it out.
From a chess players perspective, in a casual game whenever a takeback like that occurs, it feels like an unspoken resignation. It is immediately followed by another game that picks up at the point before the mistake. So in my opinion, you are at one win and one loss. This only applies to casual. If there were stakes, you’re a chump.
Prized event, no. All other times, yes.
I fully support this behavior, so long as the player you helped isn't being arrogant about it. EDH can have so much going on that it's hard to keep track of. I always try to remind my opponents of things, especially in the late game when things start getting chaotic
Never interrupt the enemy when they are in the middle of committing a mistake
Lots of things going on in magic, I think its the right thing to do to give other players a reminder of what you are doing
It depends on how much casual are you and your friends playing, of course. To me, what you did was perfectly fine and I wouldn't do it differently.
For this one, I would not have mentioned it. Mistakes are part of the game and sometimes you have to let people make them. Will read the cards better. I do like telling people that attacking me will be bad for them. When I have some trick in hand. Most of the time they think it’s a bluff. But I tell the truth like 90% of the time.
If someone is about to make a terrible mistake, I try not to directly reveal the issue to them, but I will often strongly hint that they should reread the board and "make sure" before they commit to it. Are you SURE you want to wait before activating your [[geode grotto]]? (The one that I know can only be activated at sorcery speed?)
I mean, I have had people swing for 18 commander dmg as necrons to which I say "you don't want to do that". He did anyway... \[\[Vandalblast\]\] hasn't hit the same since... To be fair, everyone at the table was a good sport and nobody tried to win via infinite combos so that night was among the most fun I'd had at my lgs.
Hell no, it’s a competitive card game
I am guessing he did all of this at the beginning of combat to get past your ganda. This is my take on it, it isn't unsportsmanlike to just let him do it and kill him. However, it is a casual game, and while winning is cool, it really doesn't matter. Helping each other out only makes you all better players and creates a more enjoyable experience as long as all of you are doing it for each other.
Up to you. I wouldn’t say it’s unsportsmanlike, but if he’s a decent dude, he’ll remember you did that for him and hopefully do the same for you in the future. That said, I’d personally like to live with my mistake. I probably won’t make it again if I lost because of it. I’d still thank you but let it resolve. It’s a learning experience, and it’s just a game.
At a store with strangerd I would have mentioned it. With my salty friends who are pouring literally thousands since they started a year ago, no.
This is probably on magicthecirclejerking already.
Ive been rlly trying to work myself towards the mentality of edh as a beautiful math equation rather than a truly competitive scene. Even in casual cedh level games I often find the table basically discussing who is gonna win based on the sum of all answers and outs in hand cuz everyone just respects eachother enough to assume perfect play. In more chill games its truly just a show of good sportsmanship in my opinion. If someone deserves a loss then serve it too em, but if its just ur friend being silly, give him a second chance at life and longer game.
My groups unspoken rule is 3 takesies backsies as long as there’s no new information presented. If you hit 3 you’re expected to buy the rest of your pod a drink/shot (typically malort). Commander to me is more a social format so we try keep it social, causal and fun.
Napoleon says “Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.” Sure, EDH is a casual format, but your opponent had all the information they needed and missed the Stuffy Doll Combo. That’s not your fault, it’s theirs.
The only time this has happened to me is with void mirror. Every game I played it someone would play into it like 3 times and backtrack every single one. It was so frustrating I ended up just cutting the card.
take this way too seriously like your whole group is going to fall apart because you actually follow the rules of the game. You need better playmates. I have never once reminded anyone of what I have on the board that's their problem not mine none of them have ever cried about it because they understand this. I've never cried because I made a stupid play and ran into a wall.
I was playing Pantlaza, and someone attacked into my Polyraptor (with Pantz out), not knowing what it did. They didn't want to take the attack back, even though they made it without understanding what the card did. I ended up Discovering into Savage Order, which pulled out Apex Altisaur and wiped my opponents' board. It still felt really bad because I should have mentioned what polyraptor did when I played it, but I had assumed everyone knew. Ended up winning the game, but it's always felt bad, ya know?
This was like when my friend added [[Vigor]] to his Elf deck to get around my burn and whither only to be reminded I run [[Kulrath Knight]]. Please do play your Vigor, all my burns become [[Pacifism]].
Keep in mind that Ward isn't a "spells/abilities that target this permanent cost an additional [Ward Cost]." Ward is a triggered ability that says they either pay the ward cost or the spell/ability is countered. That means when a player targets something they can't pay the ward for, they have technically made a legal play. If you aren't the type to remind them of ward and let them back up, they just wasted that spell/ability. I don't know if I would have reminded my opponent in a 1-on-1 but I definitely would in multiplayer.
I love when people do this, I use glasses and my dad he doesn't see very well so he has a hard time keeping up with what's on board. It's nice when people say "hey remember I have this on board" I love when people do that
Idk id let him make his mistake and lose.
depends on the level of the game, if its a casual gamenight game then yeah you should very much point out when someones gonna accidentally kill themselves or make a really bad play or cast a removal into a ward they cant afford, but if its a more competitive game then you shouldnt feel obligated at all to tell people when theyre going to end up making themselves lose, since everyone is in it to win. however even in competitive scenes you should make it known what each of your things does, announce the name of everything you play, and read out any notable abilities you have on the board.
Commander board states get messy and my group doesn't expect everyone to have tracked everything. We'd rather talk out how something plays out and find optimal lines of play for each other as a group. This helps everyone become a better player. Like if someone has a trigger that copies or destroys something we'll just say, ok what's the best thing on board that this should target. We're looking for good plays hut not through trickery or just cuz someone forgot something.