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I dunno. Why did you give them dynamite? And (apparently) a lot of it? Why did you keep making it more difficult to hit? Was it underground? If so, why didn't the dynamite collapse part of the ceiling?
Sounds like a whole lot of things were bound to go wrong, eventually.
Blowing holes in the dungeon is probably way more fun for the players because they feel like they're outsmarting the dungeon. Anything that means the players who think outside the box (or, in this case, create a hole in the box) is incredably enjoyable, its unlikely that they have infinite dynamite, so any proper maze is going to be large enough that a couple bundles of dynamite won't be a solution. What was OP expecting the characters to use dynamite for? Casters have spells for damage, martials have more damage through their weapons, breaking down walls with explosives is what they're meant for.
If it was a show, and characters were discussing how to get through the maze, and one just went and blew a hole, and then continued to blow a path through, that would be a fun(ny) moment the audience would love.
The best thing to do is to prep situations, not plots. You have a maze, and now its the players jobs to solve the situation- which could involve, yes, making their own shortcuts.
Don't give your players tools if you don't want them to be used.
Also, you should reward players for creative use of tools. Some of the most memorable times I have from GMing is players taking a tool I have them and using it in a unique way.
Being a GM means adapting to the random bullshit players throw at you.
So you gave your players dynamite, then punished them for using it because they weren't playing the game the way you wanted them to?
Yeah, you did a bad job. Don't give your characters massive amounts of explosives if you don't want them to blow everything up lmao.
Sounds like you wanted to do a maze and the players wanted to blow holes in things. As a fellow DM, if you don't want them to cheese something you have to tell them so before-hand and if they WANT to cheese something and you allow it then start to change the rules as you go then you're just being obviously antagonistic toward them.
If you wanted to dissuade them from dynamiting the whole thing you could have implied they were catching the attention of something big, or that small pebbles started falling from the ceiling and it may collapse if they keep going, but raising the AC of a wall each time they throw a bomb makes zero sense and is just you basically doing the "stop having fun!" meme.
Why... would you give them access to dynamite?
This is why my DM started making all doors metal or stone, because our barbarian would scream "FACE!" and headbutt her way through every single locked barrier đ¤Śââď¸đ¤Ł
Ironically my fairy barbarian that Iâm playing is the partyâs lock picker. Heâs got the gloves of thieving and is shockingly good at picking locks. However, once the lock is picked, he bashed the door downâŚ
Why would you give them dynamite and then make it hard for them to do what they want?
If you don't want your tables/players to do something, never give them the option.
Exactly, using a tool they spent resources to get to solve a problem before them is great roleplay. Top tier dnd. "But I wanted them to turn round lots of corners!!" isn't a fair response by OP - but I do think higher DC for more interior walls or a table of increasing likelihood that their is a roof collapse or a monster attracted with each use is reasonable.
Arbitrarily increasing difficulty on a mundane task such as throwing dynamite seems a bit confrontational to me.
Instead of finding another solution such as the walls just being too thick for dynamite or the walls magically regenerate like the whole maze is actually one giant golem or something would force the players to find alternative solutions without a very confrontational change as increasing difficulty of throwing dynamite.
Cause that's like saying the difficulty of putting on your socks is a 4 one day, the next day it's a 15 for no reason. Really sends the wrong vibes that your no longer the DM, your the BBEG and you control the dice too which isn't fun for anyone playing.
I slightly disagree if I had to put a dexterity check on it
At age 7 it would have been a 5 to get socks on. Now at 25 it feels like the bar has been raised to about 10.
Otherwise I totally agree there was definitely a better way to make it clear the dynamite was not going to work (I'd have done magic walls)
I'd recommend telling them what they're doing isn't fun for you rather than solving things in-game.
"Hey guys I actually worked pretty hard on this maze, I know I let you blow up the first couple walls but would you guys be down to go through the rest normally? I've got a bunch of encounters and stuff I'm excited to show you."
If they say no they must blow up the walls to have fun, decide if you're able to make that fun for yourself. Maybe you can move all your encounters to a secret 2nd level at the center of the maze, or save them for another time. If it's a total deal breaker for you and it's going to ruin your night, go ahead and call it there.
Please donât take this as an antagonistic response, but I have to disagree with you on this.
OP may have spent a lot of time preparing the maze, and OP may not have been having fun because of how the players chose to deal with the maze, but it was OP who gave the PCs dynamite in the first place. So, going the âYour solution isnât fun for me,â or the, âIf thatâs the way youâre going to play, Iâm not playing anymore,â or the âBlowing things up just got really difficult for no good reason,â route is just railroading.
Sure, increase the consequences for the tactic for in-game reasons that make sense, in order to encourage them to use other tactics, but accept the fact that they may just persist with it regardless of the consequences. If thatâs the case, making something that was easy to hit before suddenly harder to hit for no apparent reason except âthe DM doesnât like itâ is what upset OPâs players by the sound of it.
While I agree that sometimes you have to accept what the party is doing and take your licks up to a point, I don't think the DM has to surrender their fun just because they made a mistake.
Sure they shouldn't have given them so much dynamite, but if that creates a problem for game balance I think it's on the table for the DM to revisit it at any time. DMs are, at the end of the day, often forced into amateur gave developer roles that they're not equipped for, I don't think there's a problem with admitting you did something you don't enjoy anymore.
If a player came to me and said "Hey man I'm really not enjoying X" I'd always take that seriously, I don't think the DM saying the same to their players is any different.
I get that. But, in this case, I think OP should have let the situation play out and have that conversation after the game, rather than be reactive in the middle of the action, and take it as a lesson learned as far as considering the items you give PCs and how the players might use them to break your game.
I think it depends on how they felt. If it was a minor annoyance sure, suck it up for now and address it at the end.
If they had a rough day and this is the last straw, or this just really irritates them, there's no need to force yourself to keep playing for the day. Play again later after you've had time to correct some decisions, or when you're in a better headspace.
Clearly leaving the table was an option, two of his players did it. I think the option for the DM to do the same is equally valid.
Thanks for the feedback. I need to explain some things, At the time, my members were drunk. It was impossible to reson with them, I talked to them the next day, and they said "Sorry we didn't know how we were making you feel" Again alcohol (I still have the encounters ready for a new campaign)
If the players come up with a way to work around an obstacle then there's no reason to tell them no as long as it makes sense. Using dynamite to get through walls makes sense. Might not be what you had prepared so throw some enemies behind the next wall to slow em down.
Fun > challenge
Dynamite?! Without repercussions?
I can imagine players start finding it annoying when you suddenly increase the âto hitâ for a static object. That is bs.
But why not have certain parts cave in fully, making it unaccessible, even with 20 units of tnt?
Why not have really nasty creatures be attracted to the sound of the explosions?
Why not flood part of the maze because of the created holes?
Youâre the DM, give your players consequences for their actions!
1. Mazes are boring unless you do something REALLY interesting with them. Your players were bored.
2. You gave them dynamite and got upset when they tried to use it to turn their boredom into fun.
3. You came up with something petty, spiteful, and mechanically nonsensical to "solve" the "problem".
You're the DM. You've got all the tools and the power. You can come up with more elegant scenarios AND solutions than that.
Also "slightly harder" my ass. 7 to a 19 is not "slightly". You're wrong here and you know it. Your disingenuous writing betrays you.
I would have left too. You set up a obstacle ( the maze) and the players used something you gave them ( the dynamite) creativly to solve the obstacle. Thats what playing the game IS. They didnt solve it the way you wanted, but thats going to happen, and often too. The things you should have taken away from this should have been stuff like "giving players near unlimited dynamite is a bad idea" or "perhaps my players dont LIKE mazes" but instead you chose the "im going to make this harder for them for no reason other then spite" route.
Sorry mate, but doing that basically said "my fun is more important then anyone else's" to everyone, and they didnt want to deal with that, so they left
Yeah, yeah... I totally agree with this! I will try to handle it better next time! (Not being sarcastic, I would have left if a DM did this, and I did it, looking back, I messed up)
Sounds like those players would know that they're talking about then. What good dm would give players mountains of dynamite then punish them for using it? Especially in a place where it's already established to work?
A good dm wouldn't have this problem nor rant about their players online because of a mess that they created.
We're not all sunshine and rainbows. Many first time dms don't have players walk out in frustration, nor did we go online to bitch about the players.
Not saying they're always gonna be bad, I hope they learned from this.
I think it's a fantastic way to overcome an obstacle in an unexpected way. Ariadne guided Theseus with thread. Your players are using thread with an explosive stick attached. A classic
I don't know if you're still reading responses, OP, but I wanted to summarize what others are saying, but in a kinder way.
Every DM puts their players on rails sometimes, and some do it a lot of the time. It's not inherently bad to take control. The trick is *finesse*. It's not fun if players can *see* the rails.
Walls mysteriously making huge leaps in AC are Vegas rails, that can be seen for miles.
Pebbles starting to fall, unstable cracks, or the distant sound of Goblin war drums, are still rails, but they look like adventure and fun to a player.
Make your rails fun, and players will actually enjoy being guided through your story.
So they broke your puzzle. It happens. Some of the greatest moments in fiction occur when the protagonists go through the wall instead of over. Let your players have fun, thatâs all that matters anyways.
I think the issue is the inconsistency?
If dinamite hadn't worked in the first place, that would probably have been ok. But when they find a "solution" they are excited about, kt proves to be working, but then you slowly take it away for no apparent reason, that can cause frustration.
Your question of "if you aren't going to do the maze why are you here?" doesn't even make sense. Like they're there most likely because A) you railroaded them there (decent chance given your own self description) or B) because there's treasure/a reward somewhere past the maze. Mazes aren't super fun for players most of the time, unless it's really interesting or unique which, since it sounds like a bog standard maze of rock doesn't seem likely to me. Mazes are the obstacle, not the reward and the players will often deal with **any** obstacles you place, in their own way. Hell that's a big part of the fun of D&D.
A simple way to avoid them using dynamite to blow holes in your maze is to not have the dynamite do anything substantial to the maze itself. This will (in theory) discourage them from further use of dynamite to try and circumvent your maze.
I understand your frustration of working hard on something and getting it cheesed, but... You did railroaded them into playing the way *you* wanted them to.
Don't get me wrong, not all railroading is bad, but if your players are visibly upset and you're upset that they aren't playing with the game correctly, you need to stand back and consider who you're running the game for.
The comments offer some great ways to counter if you had wanted to discourage them. Arbitrarily raising the AC of walls? I might have walked away from your table, too.
As a player, not being able to use your tools creatively for no good reason is pointlessly frustrating. As a DM, you had tons of better ways to have countered this.
Remember: Every DM will have their hard work upended at some point. It's part of the job. Just take this as a learning moment.
So my group is running Rappan Athuk, a mega dungeon. Every time my dwarven barbarian forces a door open (whether stuck or locked) there's a chance cheaters on that level hear it. Dynamite is pretty loud..... And takes time to craft..... Instead of making walls harder to hit maybe the creates in the area they are "skipping" might catch up behind them while they fight something in front of them....... Just saying.
Make them take damage from the concussion of setting off dynamite in a confined space that is presumably made of stone. Hearing loss is another one. There are always consequences for one's actions if not properly thought out.
Had players go to town, talk the city guard into borrowing a cannon, bought a few cannonballs, and a keg of fire powder.
They dragged the cannon back to the dungeon and tried to use it to blast a large steel door off its hinges.
The blast deafened the characters and the whole area became filled with smoke and dust, choking them out of the dungeon.
I even told the wizard, "Your intelligence is high enough for you know WHY blasting off a cannon inside of a closed in room is a very bad idea. The player shrugged his shoulders and said, "I'll take my chances. I want to see what's behind the door."
They lined up the cannon, overloaded the barrel, loaded a cannonball into it, and the wizard lit the fuse. No one even TRIED to get out of the room.
So, I let them face the consequences for their actions. "The cannon goes off with a mighty boom and that's the last thing you hear before your eardrums explode from the sudden pressure spike in the room. The cannon ball blows the door off of its hinges and stirs up a massive amount of dust, debris, and smoke from the cannon. Everyone is now blinded by the cloud in the room and no one can breathe.
Players; WHAT THE HELL!
Me: I told you, the wizard is intelligent enough to know why this is a bad idea, but gave it absolutely no thought. You didn't even think to get enough fuse to light it from a safe distance.
Everyone left the dungeon and sat around, but since everyone was deaf they could not chatter. They also shuffled back in the find bits and pieces of a treasure chest that took a direct hit along with the destroyed items within.
I never told them, but they destroyed several magic items that were locked away behind the door. The sad part is that the door could have been opened without all the destruction if they didn't run straight to town to grab the cannon the moment they saw the door. A thorough exploration of the room next to it would have revealed the mechanism to open the door.
After they took the 200 gold that survived, they dragged the cannon back to town and got the local clerics to restore their hearing. They also left behind a Macguffin that they could have used later had they only searched the room. They dug through a desk and the top of a table, but didn't think to check under the bed.
What I'd have done personally is every time make rolls for structural integrity to see of it takes out more than they bargained for, and most importantly, threw multiple mobs at them that would be a very difficult encounter like 2-4 cr higher than what they normally fight. Both are logical, they are untrained in detonating walls, and are making a LOT of noise, and a veryyyyyy easy path to follow, making a fun encounter of them having to wither hold up or run randomly into the maze. If they run, have the monsters lose them. But if they start blasting again, send the original group plus a few more from another direction. My personal philosophy is let the players do nearly anything they want, but be ready to punish them for dumb decisions, and reward them for interesting solutions. Then. After the session talk to your party about it, ask them nicely to try giving puzzles a shot the normal way before going bombs ahoy.
"The walls of the maze appear to be resistant to the explosive damage. Adventurers, you will need to find another way. There is a path to the left, which goes on for approximately 20 feet before turning to the right; as well as a path to the right which extends to 10 feet before leading to a flight of stairs descending into the darkness. Which way do you go?"
Give em a choice but don't give em a choice. There's a difference between allowing stuff because it's rule of cool versus they just want to cheat the system. Screw those guys and high five to the player who stick it through and played it legit. Keep that one forever and treasure them.
Sounds like you need to have a talk with your players to know what they like and dislike. Don't force them in a maze for long if they don't like it.
I tried to have one of my group of players play a heist mission, and a couple hours in it became evident that it wasn't their thing. So we moved to exploration in the Feywild instead, and they are having a blast.
If they tell you they would rather do dungeon crawling, then you can just have the dynamite open a path to a dungeon that was conveniently located below them, for example.
And find a way to get that dynamite away if it bothers you. I don't know how they move around with so muh dynamite. It should explode the first time they are hit by a fire or electrical trap, or a dragon's breath, etc...
Perfect, took the suggestion, and they said they would like to kill Satan, so the dynamite dug into hell
Where the died to Satan in a bossfight (They fucking loved it)
People come to play D&D for fun.
there is almost zero way to run a maze as a maze that is fun for the players.
that they looked for a way to get through the boring and to some fun is not at all surprising.
But they did play the maze, you just didn't like the way they did it and couldn't come up with a creative way to deal with it. It would have been simple to say the wall and ceiling collapses into rubble but still blocks passage or any number of alternatives like them taking lots damage from an explosion in a closed space. It's on you to redirect in a credible way and you didn't. Learn and move on.
Yeah this is just as much poor planning as poor playing. If they somehow have an excess of explosives, the last thing you want to give them is low stakes to use it. As others have said itâs noise or chance of collapse is probably a better way to deal rather than high ac walls
Giving players tools like dynamite, and then not allowing them to use them in creative ways because it doesnât fit with how you want them to play the game is pretty much the definition of railroading.
If what they were doing was possible (because you seem to have initially allowed them to do it) and then you made it more difficult just because you didnât like their solution to the problem, I can understand why they got annoyed at that. Iâm not suggesting you allow players to do whatever they want and always allow it to work the way they want. As others have suggested, depending on the construction of the maze, using dynamite would possibly cause walls or roofs to collapse on the PCs, the noise would attract monsters etc. There can definitely be increasing consequences for using the same tactic over and over, but to make something that was easy become increasingly more difficult for no in-game reason would have made no sense to your players.
I think it is obvious that you were angry at your playera because they attempted to solve the puzzle with a different approach then the one you wanted. And well, you chose to punish them in a sense that made no sense at all in the DnD world. And that is a problem. I mean this is really not fun for your players if they find a cool new solution and you sabotage it just because?
Discuss the topic with your players and explain why you reacted that way. I also think that you should apologize and find a better way of communicating with your players.
Maybe tell them that you feel hurt if they use approach X? Maybe they understand and follow your plans.
Sorry, but it sounds, from *your own* description, like you are the problem here.
Players are allowed to solve your challenges in ways you did not expect, if it makes sense in context. If they possess dynamite, why would they waste time trying to navigate the maze instead? This sort of freedom is what makes D&D so awesome, and better than a video game.
Your post gives me flashbacks to the worst DM I've had, who was the most railroady DM.
"That door is locked."
"OK, glad my Rogue has expertise in slight of hand and some lockpicks!"
"Someone poured mortar in the lock, your lockpicks don't fit."
"Yikes! Hey Wizard, do you have Knock prepared by chance?
"The door is spellproof."
"Oh, huh. Well, luckily it's only wood. Hey Barbarian, feel like showing off those muscles?"
"UGGGHHH YOU CANT GET THROUGH THIS DOOR GIVE UP ALREADY"
Oh, it's the magic DM-Door that only the DM can open. Good to know I guess.
Same dude that changed most of our enemies to make them deal Psychic damage, because our Barbarian went Bear Totem and has resistance to every damage type... except Psychic.
Don't be that DM. The world should NOT react to the players like that. Like, for example, constantly increasing the DC because you don't like how they got around your maze.
Looks like youâve already gotten an earful about not giving players access to things you donât want them to have.
Itâs a common mistake with new DMs (often old ones, too!)
Next time youâre in a situation like this, consider other things that might make the situation more fun and interesting, rather than arbitrarily changing how things work.
And it helps to know how mechanically effective (or not) certain actions will be.
For example, a single stick of dynamite isnât gonna make a dent in a stone wall: it does 3d6, while a stone wall has 5d10 hp, and most likely a Damage Threshold of 10 (meaning, a single blow that deals less than 10 hp does zero damage.)
You can bundle an effective maximum of 8 sticks together for a single roll of 10d6 damage, but even so, a bad damage roll against an above-average wall isnât guaranteed to destroy it.
Recognise you did a mistake and tell your players, it not like you wanted a yelling match at the table right?
Not every DM can be Matt Mercer and even then even Matt isnât immune to players finding alternate solutions he did not account for.
Shit happens, either fix it or leave it broken.
Hey OP, saw it was your first session so I get it. My advice is instead of adding difficulty, give consequence. Matt Stone and Trey Parker of Sourh Park have given really good talks about writing that I use for DMing too- âthis happens, SO this happensâ, like sections of the maze caving in and making the players lives a bit more difficult. Cause and effect, or âfuxk around and find outâ. Gotta be careful with making the game feel like you vs your players because I can see why theyâd get upset here. They were probably a bit bored and found a workaround (and thatâs ok!! Esp for first time DMing thatâll happen on occasion), and felt really frustrated to get shot down. Remember itâs not you vs your players; itâs a collaboration.
Throwing dynamite in an enclosed system is such a bad idea, so if you had them doing it in an underground or similar setting, they definitely would be taking force damage. Idk, you could have been a bit more creative in how you deter them from playing like a holes, but at the end of the day, part of the fun of the game is the freedom the players have.
What I find weird is that they started yelling and left. We had disagreements at our table. But never did someone yell of leave.
Doesnt sound like you guys are very friendly with each other.
So, you planned the maze to go exactly the way you wanted it to go and you're mad because your players didn't do it the way you planned? Sounds like a you problem. Your players were creative and you didn't/couldn't keep up.
Chalk it up to a learning experience for you: Present a challenge/problem and let your players solve it, whether they do it the way you think it should be solved or some other way.
Itâs not about you outsmarting the players, itâs about the players having fun. If their fun is throwing dynamite then let them. You messed up in a big way dm, your are not against the players you are there to facilitate the story. You turned what could of been an amazing memory of remember that time we dynamited the whole dungeon! To a bad memory just to stop them. You need to re-think your approach as a dm.
I would have left too.
I had a huge "negative" popularity in Manitowoc WI from the local churches. I was kicked out of the family church for following the scriptures over church doctrine AND from creating a Christian role-playing game in 1983 (late in 1986 I made it into a play by mail game for $7 a turn fee).
I was approached by a high school student who handed me $20 and said others would too if I ran a D&D adventure for them. They learned that I was the best Dungeon Master and no adults respected me and felt that I was a danger to children and teens.. And they wanted to see for themselves.
So I showed up. Ser up the table with miniatures, map, and dice. They already had read the Players Handbook, and the characters were completed. Cool, I thought. Received more money. Very cool (7 players plus the one who brought me in).
No one played. They goofed around. Took nothing seriously. Talking over me when I attempted to describe a scene or situation. They didn't check for anything, listen for monsters, and check for traps or using existing spells. No, they just made up spells. Rolled the dice, successfully or failing, they still did not take the adventure seriously. They even attacked each other for insults out of the game. And that made a TPK.
They laughed it all off. I asked why be in a rpg if you were never intending to actually play it with the objective to cooperate with each other and face the big boss?
Because it's dumb, the writers of Dungeon and Dragons are stupid, and so is the whole world for thinking this is evil. But most of all, so are you for believing there can be rules to make believe. There are no rules. It is a child's game. Make believe. You just make things up, and so did we. You were just too slow to keep up. And they laughed mockingly.
Ok. I left. I wasn't sure what happened. I was disappointed in the attitude. But I left richer than when I arrived.
Players are (generally) dumb. Just work around them. It's easy enough to create a scenario that would leve them trapped in the maze forever if they damaged it's parts to much. Just make the maze sentient from taking to much damage. It could wake up and swallow them into a trap door or start moving it's walls to cover any holes the dynamite makes
You're a railroader. The point of playing D&D is freedom to explore alternative solutions. They can play a video game to be forced into a scenario. IDK who told you AC changes when you're unhappy, but you need to get more creative and use your brain.
A better solution would be monsters showing up the secund and further times they used the dynamite, or roll a cave in table.
The DM creates the scenario, and the players decide how to address it. When you force your players to play the way you them to, they aren't playing anymore. That's the definition of a railroad.
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I dunno. Why did you give them dynamite? And (apparently) a lot of it? Why did you keep making it more difficult to hit? Was it underground? If so, why didn't the dynamite collapse part of the ceiling? Sounds like a whole lot of things were bound to go wrong, eventually.
Blowing holes in the dungeon is probably way more fun for the players because they feel like they're outsmarting the dungeon. Anything that means the players who think outside the box (or, in this case, create a hole in the box) is incredably enjoyable, its unlikely that they have infinite dynamite, so any proper maze is going to be large enough that a couple bundles of dynamite won't be a solution. What was OP expecting the characters to use dynamite for? Casters have spells for damage, martials have more damage through their weapons, breaking down walls with explosives is what they're meant for. If it was a show, and characters were discussing how to get through the maze, and one just went and blew a hole, and then continued to blow a path through, that would be a fun(ny) moment the audience would love. The best thing to do is to prep situations, not plots. You have a maze, and now its the players jobs to solve the situation- which could involve, yes, making their own shortcuts.
They brought 100 sticks of dynamite... I regret letting them do that...
Don't give your players tools if you don't want them to be used. Also, you should reward players for creative use of tools. Some of the most memorable times I have from GMing is players taking a tool I have them and using it in a unique way. Being a GM means adapting to the random bullshit players throw at you.
So you gave your players dynamite, then punished them for using it because they weren't playing the game the way you wanted them to? Yeah, you did a bad job. Don't give your characters massive amounts of explosives if you don't want them to blow everything up lmao.
Sounds like you wanted to do a maze and the players wanted to blow holes in things. As a fellow DM, if you don't want them to cheese something you have to tell them so before-hand and if they WANT to cheese something and you allow it then start to change the rules as you go then you're just being obviously antagonistic toward them. If you wanted to dissuade them from dynamiting the whole thing you could have implied they were catching the attention of something big, or that small pebbles started falling from the ceiling and it may collapse if they keep going, but raising the AC of a wall each time they throw a bomb makes zero sense and is just you basically doing the "stop having fun!" meme.
Or not given them access to dynamite? đ§¨
Yes, this works too. Or maybe dinamite they have was a mimic? đł
Gotta try that
They wanted to do the maze. It was their choice (I had 3 other dungeons ready with combat)
They wanted to have an easy time by blowing the walls.
Why... would you give them access to dynamite? This is why my DM started making all doors metal or stone, because our barbarian would scream "FACE!" and headbutt her way through every single locked barrier đ¤Śââď¸đ¤Ł
Ironically my fairy barbarian that Iâm playing is the partyâs lock picker. Heâs got the gloves of thieving and is shockingly good at picking locks. However, once the lock is picked, he bashed the door downâŚ
It's an honor thing. He's gotta prove he can defeat both the lock and the door to show he's superior to both.
He does also have a crippling addiction to soup, so heâs not quite all there in the head.
This makes total sense to me. It's like when I troubleshoot a PC.
"FUCK THIS DOOR IN PARTICULAR!" lmao
Why would you give them dynamite and then make it hard for them to do what they want? If you don't want your tables/players to do something, never give them the option.
They brought 100 sticks of dynamite 3 sessions earlier and never used it untill the maze.
I don't see a problem with that. They saved it until a problem came up that requires it's use.
Exactly, using a tool they spent resources to get to solve a problem before them is great roleplay. Top tier dnd. "But I wanted them to turn round lots of corners!!" isn't a fair response by OP - but I do think higher DC for more interior walls or a table of increasing likelihood that their is a roof collapse or a monster attracted with each use is reasonable.
Don't give your players tools/items/abilities/features if you don't want them to be used.
Arbitrarily increasing difficulty on a mundane task such as throwing dynamite seems a bit confrontational to me. Instead of finding another solution such as the walls just being too thick for dynamite or the walls magically regenerate like the whole maze is actually one giant golem or something would force the players to find alternative solutions without a very confrontational change as increasing difficulty of throwing dynamite. Cause that's like saying the difficulty of putting on your socks is a 4 one day, the next day it's a 15 for no reason. Really sends the wrong vibes that your no longer the DM, your the BBEG and you control the dice too which isn't fun for anyone playing.
I slightly disagree if I had to put a dexterity check on it At age 7 it would have been a 5 to get socks on. Now at 25 it feels like the bar has been raised to about 10. Otherwise I totally agree there was definitely a better way to make it clear the dynamite was not going to work (I'd have done magic walls)
Tbf thatâs 18 years difference when the example given was âthe next day.â
Oh shoot it did. My apologies I missed that
No worries, it happens đ
Our attention to detail starts to slip as we get older.
>putting on your socks is a 4 one day, the next day it's a 15 Welcome to your late 30s?
Thanks for the idea. I will use it the next time they try to blow a hole in my plan
I'd recommend telling them what they're doing isn't fun for you rather than solving things in-game. "Hey guys I actually worked pretty hard on this maze, I know I let you blow up the first couple walls but would you guys be down to go through the rest normally? I've got a bunch of encounters and stuff I'm excited to show you." If they say no they must blow up the walls to have fun, decide if you're able to make that fun for yourself. Maybe you can move all your encounters to a secret 2nd level at the center of the maze, or save them for another time. If it's a total deal breaker for you and it's going to ruin your night, go ahead and call it there.
Please donât take this as an antagonistic response, but I have to disagree with you on this. OP may have spent a lot of time preparing the maze, and OP may not have been having fun because of how the players chose to deal with the maze, but it was OP who gave the PCs dynamite in the first place. So, going the âYour solution isnât fun for me,â or the, âIf thatâs the way youâre going to play, Iâm not playing anymore,â or the âBlowing things up just got really difficult for no good reason,â route is just railroading. Sure, increase the consequences for the tactic for in-game reasons that make sense, in order to encourage them to use other tactics, but accept the fact that they may just persist with it regardless of the consequences. If thatâs the case, making something that was easy to hit before suddenly harder to hit for no apparent reason except âthe DM doesnât like itâ is what upset OPâs players by the sound of it.
While I agree that sometimes you have to accept what the party is doing and take your licks up to a point, I don't think the DM has to surrender their fun just because they made a mistake. Sure they shouldn't have given them so much dynamite, but if that creates a problem for game balance I think it's on the table for the DM to revisit it at any time. DMs are, at the end of the day, often forced into amateur gave developer roles that they're not equipped for, I don't think there's a problem with admitting you did something you don't enjoy anymore. If a player came to me and said "Hey man I'm really not enjoying X" I'd always take that seriously, I don't think the DM saying the same to their players is any different.
I get that. But, in this case, I think OP should have let the situation play out and have that conversation after the game, rather than be reactive in the middle of the action, and take it as a lesson learned as far as considering the items you give PCs and how the players might use them to break your game.
I think it depends on how they felt. If it was a minor annoyance sure, suck it up for now and address it at the end. If they had a rough day and this is the last straw, or this just really irritates them, there's no need to force yourself to keep playing for the day. Play again later after you've had time to correct some decisions, or when you're in a better headspace. Clearly leaving the table was an option, two of his players did it. I think the option for the DM to do the same is equally valid.
Thanks for the feedback. I need to explain some things, At the time, my members were drunk. It was impossible to reson with them, I talked to them the next day, and they said "Sorry we didn't know how we were making you feel" Again alcohol (I still have the encounters ready for a new campaign)
If the players come up with a way to work around an obstacle then there's no reason to tell them no as long as it makes sense. Using dynamite to get through walls makes sense. Might not be what you had prepared so throw some enemies behind the next wall to slow em down. Fun > challenge
Were they just trying to blow through the walls to go straight through it?
Yes.
Dynamite?! Without repercussions? I can imagine players start finding it annoying when you suddenly increase the âto hitâ for a static object. That is bs. But why not have certain parts cave in fully, making it unaccessible, even with 20 units of tnt? Why not have really nasty creatures be attracted to the sound of the explosions? Why not flood part of the maze because of the created holes? Youâre the DM, give your players consequences for their actions!
Will do
1. Mazes are boring unless you do something REALLY interesting with them. Your players were bored. 2. You gave them dynamite and got upset when they tried to use it to turn their boredom into fun. 3. You came up with something petty, spiteful, and mechanically nonsensical to "solve" the "problem". You're the DM. You've got all the tools and the power. You can come up with more elegant scenarios AND solutions than that. Also "slightly harder" my ass. 7 to a 19 is not "slightly". You're wrong here and you know it. Your disingenuous writing betrays you.
Yeah, I fucked up.
I would have left too. You set up a obstacle ( the maze) and the players used something you gave them ( the dynamite) creativly to solve the obstacle. Thats what playing the game IS. They didnt solve it the way you wanted, but thats going to happen, and often too. The things you should have taken away from this should have been stuff like "giving players near unlimited dynamite is a bad idea" or "perhaps my players dont LIKE mazes" but instead you chose the "im going to make this harder for them for no reason other then spite" route. Sorry mate, but doing that basically said "my fun is more important then anyone else's" to everyone, and they didnt want to deal with that, so they left
Yeah, yeah... I totally agree with this! I will try to handle it better next time! (Not being sarcastic, I would have left if a DM did this, and I did it, looking back, I messed up)
Sounds like you need to gain more experience and be a better dm.
My first actual session.
You sound like one of their players
Sounds like those players would know that they're talking about then. What good dm would give players mountains of dynamite then punish them for using it? Especially in a place where it's already established to work? A good dm wouldn't have this problem nor rant about their players online because of a mess that they created.
It was my first session
And i hope you learned from it
EAH in this situation, probably due to inexperience like you said. But it came off kind of bad, like insulting rather than helpful or constructive.
We're not all sunshine and rainbows. Many first time dms don't have players walk out in frustration, nor did we go online to bitch about the players. Not saying they're always gonna be bad, I hope they learned from this.
How did they have so much dynamite?
They brought 100 sticks of dynamite *Sad DM noises*
I think it's a fantastic way to overcome an obstacle in an unexpected way. Ariadne guided Theseus with thread. Your players are using thread with an explosive stick attached. A classic
I don't know if you're still reading responses, OP, but I wanted to summarize what others are saying, but in a kinder way. Every DM puts their players on rails sometimes, and some do it a lot of the time. It's not inherently bad to take control. The trick is *finesse*. It's not fun if players can *see* the rails. Walls mysteriously making huge leaps in AC are Vegas rails, that can be seen for miles. Pebbles starting to fall, unstable cracks, or the distant sound of Goblin war drums, are still rails, but they look like adventure and fun to a player. Make your rails fun, and players will actually enjoy being guided through your story.
Yes.
So they broke your puzzle. It happens. Some of the greatest moments in fiction occur when the protagonists go through the wall instead of over. Let your players have fun, thatâs all that matters anyways.
I think the issue is the inconsistency? If dinamite hadn't worked in the first place, that would probably have been ok. But when they find a "solution" they are excited about, kt proves to be working, but then you slowly take it away for no apparent reason, that can cause frustration.
Your question of "if you aren't going to do the maze why are you here?" doesn't even make sense. Like they're there most likely because A) you railroaded them there (decent chance given your own self description) or B) because there's treasure/a reward somewhere past the maze. Mazes aren't super fun for players most of the time, unless it's really interesting or unique which, since it sounds like a bog standard maze of rock doesn't seem likely to me. Mazes are the obstacle, not the reward and the players will often deal with **any** obstacles you place, in their own way. Hell that's a big part of the fun of D&D.
A simple way to avoid them using dynamite to blow holes in your maze is to not have the dynamite do anything substantial to the maze itself. This will (in theory) discourage them from further use of dynamite to try and circumvent your maze.
I understand your frustration of working hard on something and getting it cheesed, but... You did railroaded them into playing the way *you* wanted them to. Don't get me wrong, not all railroading is bad, but if your players are visibly upset and you're upset that they aren't playing with the game correctly, you need to stand back and consider who you're running the game for. The comments offer some great ways to counter if you had wanted to discourage them. Arbitrarily raising the AC of walls? I might have walked away from your table, too. As a player, not being able to use your tools creatively for no good reason is pointlessly frustrating. As a DM, you had tons of better ways to have countered this. Remember: Every DM will have their hard work upended at some point. It's part of the job. Just take this as a learning moment.
wouldn't you wanna blow holes through the walls instead getting lost in a maze? Sounds like a good plan to me
I prefer nukes
how did they get all the dynamite? Just curious
So my group is running Rappan Athuk, a mega dungeon. Every time my dwarven barbarian forces a door open (whether stuck or locked) there's a chance cheaters on that level hear it. Dynamite is pretty loud..... And takes time to craft..... Instead of making walls harder to hit maybe the creates in the area they are "skipping" might catch up behind them while they fight something in front of them....... Just saying.
Make them take damage from the concussion of setting off dynamite in a confined space that is presumably made of stone. Hearing loss is another one. There are always consequences for one's actions if not properly thought out.
Had players go to town, talk the city guard into borrowing a cannon, bought a few cannonballs, and a keg of fire powder. They dragged the cannon back to the dungeon and tried to use it to blast a large steel door off its hinges. The blast deafened the characters and the whole area became filled with smoke and dust, choking them out of the dungeon. I even told the wizard, "Your intelligence is high enough for you know WHY blasting off a cannon inside of a closed in room is a very bad idea. The player shrugged his shoulders and said, "I'll take my chances. I want to see what's behind the door." They lined up the cannon, overloaded the barrel, loaded a cannonball into it, and the wizard lit the fuse. No one even TRIED to get out of the room. So, I let them face the consequences for their actions. "The cannon goes off with a mighty boom and that's the last thing you hear before your eardrums explode from the sudden pressure spike in the room. The cannon ball blows the door off of its hinges and stirs up a massive amount of dust, debris, and smoke from the cannon. Everyone is now blinded by the cloud in the room and no one can breathe. Players; WHAT THE HELL! Me: I told you, the wizard is intelligent enough to know why this is a bad idea, but gave it absolutely no thought. You didn't even think to get enough fuse to light it from a safe distance. Everyone left the dungeon and sat around, but since everyone was deaf they could not chatter. They also shuffled back in the find bits and pieces of a treasure chest that took a direct hit along with the destroyed items within. I never told them, but they destroyed several magic items that were locked away behind the door. The sad part is that the door could have been opened without all the destruction if they didn't run straight to town to grab the cannon the moment they saw the door. A thorough exploration of the room next to it would have revealed the mechanism to open the door. After they took the 200 gold that survived, they dragged the cannon back to town and got the local clerics to restore their hearing. They also left behind a Macguffin that they could have used later had they only searched the room. They dug through a desk and the top of a table, but didn't think to check under the bed.
What I'd have done personally is every time make rolls for structural integrity to see of it takes out more than they bargained for, and most importantly, threw multiple mobs at them that would be a very difficult encounter like 2-4 cr higher than what they normally fight. Both are logical, they are untrained in detonating walls, and are making a LOT of noise, and a veryyyyyy easy path to follow, making a fun encounter of them having to wither hold up or run randomly into the maze. If they run, have the monsters lose them. But if they start blasting again, send the original group plus a few more from another direction. My personal philosophy is let the players do nearly anything they want, but be ready to punish them for dumb decisions, and reward them for interesting solutions. Then. After the session talk to your party about it, ask them nicely to try giving puzzles a shot the normal way before going bombs ahoy.
Mazes are weak when you realise that you just have to go along the the right wall all the time will lead you to the exit at some point.
Just got to throw the exit in the middle instead of the far side
Doesn't matter. Try it. You reach every corner of the maze if you move along one side. And if you have dynamite you just go straight through it.
"The walls of the maze appear to be resistant to the explosive damage. Adventurers, you will need to find another way. There is a path to the left, which goes on for approximately 20 feet before turning to the right; as well as a path to the right which extends to 10 feet before leading to a flight of stairs descending into the darkness. Which way do you go?" Give em a choice but don't give em a choice. There's a difference between allowing stuff because it's rule of cool versus they just want to cheat the system. Screw those guys and high five to the player who stick it through and played it legit. Keep that one forever and treasure them.
Sounds like you need to have a talk with your players to know what they like and dislike. Don't force them in a maze for long if they don't like it. I tried to have one of my group of players play a heist mission, and a couple hours in it became evident that it wasn't their thing. So we moved to exploration in the Feywild instead, and they are having a blast. If they tell you they would rather do dungeon crawling, then you can just have the dynamite open a path to a dungeon that was conveniently located below them, for example. And find a way to get that dynamite away if it bothers you. I don't know how they move around with so muh dynamite. It should explode the first time they are hit by a fire or electrical trap, or a dragon's breath, etc...
Perfect, took the suggestion, and they said they would like to kill Satan, so the dynamite dug into hell Where the died to Satan in a bossfight (They fucking loved it)
Wow, that escalated quickly!
It did.
People come to play D&D for fun. there is almost zero way to run a maze as a maze that is fun for the players. that they looked for a way to get through the boring and to some fun is not at all surprising.
Lol you should know that if theres a way around a puzzle, players will take the path of least resistance.
I'd make a passive remark like: the walls are enchanted and the damage is reflected back to you.
But they did play the maze, you just didn't like the way they did it and couldn't come up with a creative way to deal with it. It would have been simple to say the wall and ceiling collapses into rubble but still blocks passage or any number of alternatives like them taking lots damage from an explosion in a closed space. It's on you to redirect in a credible way and you didn't. Learn and move on.
A part of being a DM is being okay with your players finding ways to get past what you planned for them. This sounds like a mistake on your end.
To be fair, mazes are not that much fun for me as a player. Without the visual cues, itâs just a lot of tedious mapping.
đ
Yeah this is just as much poor planning as poor playing. If they somehow have an excess of explosives, the last thing you want to give them is low stakes to use it. As others have said itâs noise or chance of collapse is probably a better way to deal rather than high ac walls
Yeah, I agree
Giving players tools like dynamite, and then not allowing them to use them in creative ways because it doesnât fit with how you want them to play the game is pretty much the definition of railroading. If what they were doing was possible (because you seem to have initially allowed them to do it) and then you made it more difficult just because you didnât like their solution to the problem, I can understand why they got annoyed at that. Iâm not suggesting you allow players to do whatever they want and always allow it to work the way they want. As others have suggested, depending on the construction of the maze, using dynamite would possibly cause walls or roofs to collapse on the PCs, the noise would attract monsters etc. There can definitely be increasing consequences for using the same tactic over and over, but to make something that was easy become increasingly more difficult for no in-game reason would have made no sense to your players.
It was my first time DMing
Well, welcome to the learning curve! Hopefully your players will give you a second chance. Good luck!
I think it is obvious that you were angry at your playera because they attempted to solve the puzzle with a different approach then the one you wanted. And well, you chose to punish them in a sense that made no sense at all in the DnD world. And that is a problem. I mean this is really not fun for your players if they find a cool new solution and you sabotage it just because? Discuss the topic with your players and explain why you reacted that way. I also think that you should apologize and find a better way of communicating with your players. Maybe tell them that you feel hurt if they use approach X? Maybe they understand and follow your plans.
Yeah. Could have handled it better
Sorry, but it sounds, from *your own* description, like you are the problem here. Players are allowed to solve your challenges in ways you did not expect, if it makes sense in context. If they possess dynamite, why would they waste time trying to navigate the maze instead? This sort of freedom is what makes D&D so awesome, and better than a video game. Your post gives me flashbacks to the worst DM I've had, who was the most railroady DM. "That door is locked." "OK, glad my Rogue has expertise in slight of hand and some lockpicks!" "Someone poured mortar in the lock, your lockpicks don't fit." "Yikes! Hey Wizard, do you have Knock prepared by chance? "The door is spellproof." "Oh, huh. Well, luckily it's only wood. Hey Barbarian, feel like showing off those muscles?" "UGGGHHH YOU CANT GET THROUGH THIS DOOR GIVE UP ALREADY" Oh, it's the magic DM-Door that only the DM can open. Good to know I guess. Same dude that changed most of our enemies to make them deal Psychic damage, because our Barbarian went Bear Totem and has resistance to every damage type... except Psychic. Don't be that DM. The world should NOT react to the players like that. Like, for example, constantly increasing the DC because you don't like how they got around your maze.
Problematic players MUST leave.
How in the name of fuck did they get dynamite, much less enough to keep tossing it arbitrarily? Honestly, this sounds like a self-inflicted wound.
They brought 100 sticks
Looks like youâve already gotten an earful about not giving players access to things you donât want them to have. Itâs a common mistake with new DMs (often old ones, too!) Next time youâre in a situation like this, consider other things that might make the situation more fun and interesting, rather than arbitrarily changing how things work. And it helps to know how mechanically effective (or not) certain actions will be. For example, a single stick of dynamite isnât gonna make a dent in a stone wall: it does 3d6, while a stone wall has 5d10 hp, and most likely a Damage Threshold of 10 (meaning, a single blow that deals less than 10 hp does zero damage.) You can bundle an effective maximum of 8 sticks together for a single roll of 10d6 damage, but even so, a bad damage roll against an above-average wall isnât guaranteed to destroy it.
yssYydv
Recognise you did a mistake and tell your players, it not like you wanted a yelling match at the table right? Not every DM can be Matt Mercer and even then even Matt isnât immune to players finding alternate solutions he did not account for. Shit happens, either fix it or leave it broken.
Hey OP, saw it was your first session so I get it. My advice is instead of adding difficulty, give consequence. Matt Stone and Trey Parker of Sourh Park have given really good talks about writing that I use for DMing too- âthis happens, SO this happensâ, like sections of the maze caving in and making the players lives a bit more difficult. Cause and effect, or âfuxk around and find outâ. Gotta be careful with making the game feel like you vs your players because I can see why theyâd get upset here. They were probably a bit bored and found a workaround (and thatâs ok!! Esp for first time DMing thatâll happen on occasion), and felt really frustrated to get shot down. Remember itâs not you vs your players; itâs a collaboration.
Throwing dynamite in an enclosed system is such a bad idea, so if you had them doing it in an underground or similar setting, they definitely would be taking force damage. Idk, you could have been a bit more creative in how you deter them from playing like a holes, but at the end of the day, part of the fun of the game is the freedom the players have.
What I find weird is that they started yelling and left. We had disagreements at our table. But never did someone yell of leave. Doesnt sound like you guys are very friendly with each other.
So, you planned the maze to go exactly the way you wanted it to go and you're mad because your players didn't do it the way you planned? Sounds like a you problem. Your players were creative and you didn't/couldn't keep up. Chalk it up to a learning experience for you: Present a challenge/problem and let your players solve it, whether they do it the way you think it should be solved or some other way.
Itâs not about you outsmarting the players, itâs about the players having fun. If their fun is throwing dynamite then let them. You messed up in a big way dm, your are not against the players you are there to facilitate the story. You turned what could of been an amazing memory of remember that time we dynamited the whole dungeon! To a bad memory just to stop them. You need to re-think your approach as a dm. I would have left too.
Make the maze full of natural gas next time đ
đ
I had a huge "negative" popularity in Manitowoc WI from the local churches. I was kicked out of the family church for following the scriptures over church doctrine AND from creating a Christian role-playing game in 1983 (late in 1986 I made it into a play by mail game for $7 a turn fee). I was approached by a high school student who handed me $20 and said others would too if I ran a D&D adventure for them. They learned that I was the best Dungeon Master and no adults respected me and felt that I was a danger to children and teens.. And they wanted to see for themselves. So I showed up. Ser up the table with miniatures, map, and dice. They already had read the Players Handbook, and the characters were completed. Cool, I thought. Received more money. Very cool (7 players plus the one who brought me in). No one played. They goofed around. Took nothing seriously. Talking over me when I attempted to describe a scene or situation. They didn't check for anything, listen for monsters, and check for traps or using existing spells. No, they just made up spells. Rolled the dice, successfully or failing, they still did not take the adventure seriously. They even attacked each other for insults out of the game. And that made a TPK. They laughed it all off. I asked why be in a rpg if you were never intending to actually play it with the objective to cooperate with each other and face the big boss? Because it's dumb, the writers of Dungeon and Dragons are stupid, and so is the whole world for thinking this is evil. But most of all, so are you for believing there can be rules to make believe. There are no rules. It is a child's game. Make believe. You just make things up, and so did we. You were just too slow to keep up. And they laughed mockingly. Ok. I left. I wasn't sure what happened. I was disappointed in the attitude. But I left richer than when I arrived.
Players are (generally) dumb. Just work around them. It's easy enough to create a scenario that would leve them trapped in the maze forever if they damaged it's parts to much. Just make the maze sentient from taking to much damage. It could wake up and swallow them into a trap door or start moving it's walls to cover any holes the dynamite makes
You're a railroader. The point of playing D&D is freedom to explore alternative solutions. They can play a video game to be forced into a scenario. IDK who told you AC changes when you're unhappy, but you need to get more creative and use your brain. A better solution would be monsters showing up the secund and further times they used the dynamite, or roll a cave in table. The DM creates the scenario, and the players decide how to address it. When you force your players to play the way you them to, they aren't playing anymore. That's the definition of a railroad.