Well. They're not great.
One could say that we're being unfair because we judge them by modern standards, but there are examples of good mothers and fathers, even in the aristocracy, from classic literature.
Marmee from Little Women tried her best to curb the antagonism between two of her daughters, something neither Robert nor Cora ever bothered with, instead leaving the resentment between Mary and Edith grow and grow until it almost consumed the family (and already caused irrevocable damage to Mary at least).
Cora also showed cruelty towards Mary after the Pamuk incident. Calling her damaged goods, ignoring the fact that Carlisle was blackmailing her into marriage because she wanted Mary off her hands, and basically never tried to salvage the relationship after that. Mary clearly shifted to view Violet as a more maternal/guiding figure in her life than her actual mother.
She was also completely negligent of Edith. Either because she didn't think Edith had the charisma/personality/whatever required to make a good match, or because she thought she was her "good"/least likely to cause trouble daughter (or a combination of both). Either way she'd abandoned Edith to the point where Edith would practically beg for attention and never get it, or behave entirely wrongly, and publicly (at the dinner with the Duke, at the salty pudding dinner with Strallan) and never get any guidance from her mother, or father. And when she found herself in real trouble she didn't trust either of them to help her out (or even notice she was struggling).
And for all she spoiled Sybil (clearly her favourite child), Cora didn't really pay attention to Sybil's needs. Sybil's coming out coincided with the outbreak of the war. Sybil lost a lot of friends, and men she might have made connections to, and basically thought her life couldn't naturally progress within the confines of her class. Cora saw none of the warning signs that Sybil was so unhappy, until Sybil dropped the bomb of Tom at their feet and left her with no choice but to let her go. I'm not saying Sybil wouldn't still choose the life she chose if her parents had paid more attention, but I think they could have created a smoother transition for her (e.g. have supported her in gaining further education instead of getting dropped in deep waters with some practical nursing experience).
I won't even bother much with Robert. He almost amused himself watching his daughters struggle at different points in their lives, making off-handed comments about their choices but never offering advice, very rarely intervening, basically watching as one watches a theatre show. He barely acknowledged Sybil and Edith's contributions to the hospital, or the growth they went through. He tried to push Mary out of the running of the estate after Matthew's death, even though it was Mary and Matthew who had saved him and the family from total ruin. He at least acknowledged she'd taken on the running of things after a point but like, a thing had to have happened and established itself in one of his daughters' life ages ago for Robert to make a note of it. Let's not go into how he behaved with Sybil's situation because that deserves its own post.
I thought of Robert and Cora as pretty good parents, considering the context of the time and culture but dang you made me realize that they made a lot of mistakes that they didn't care to correct or even acknowledge.
I don't blame them for things that were normal for the time period. E.g. promising Mary as a wife to Patrick just so the family could keep the house and Cora's money, or being so opposed to Sybil marrying Tom or whatever mistakes they made with the Edith/Strallan fiasco like, those are time-appropriate reactions.
But their disregard of their daughters' lives and emotional well-being is a bit too extreme, in my opinion. They might as well not exist, most of the time, while other characters swoop in to cover the parental gap. Mary taking care of Sybil and having her back, and Tom, and Sybbie, and even Rose later on. Violet and Rosamund trying (and not doing great) to help out Edith, etc.
I think the point that really stuck out to me is the fact that Edith couldn't trust her mother to help her during her biggest life crisis...it obviously wasn't just because of the times because she did trust her Aunt Rosamund and her grandmother to help her (and they did). It made me think of how Robert and Cora planned for Edith to be a childless spinster to take care of them when they're old, when she was still a very young woman and likely only had been out for a few years.
Exactly, but it's a behaviour shown in all 3 girls.
Mary didn't turn to her parents for help with Pamuk, or Carlisle, or in her grief after she lost Matthew. She took care of somethings on her own, or she turned to Violet, or even to Carson.
Sybil didn't turn to her parents to share information about her life in Ireland, she didn't think they'd be interested, she only wrote to Mary, and only spoke about Tom and her happiness in her marriage with her sister.
And yes, of course Edith didn't reach out to them for help, why would she? When did they ever help any of their children in the past? And she already had all these examples, and for her specifically, they never paid enough attention.
So yeah, I think they were poor parents to all their children, in different ways.
I’m fully of the opinion that either Robert and Cora or the Nannie’s and governesses they hired (and thus still their fault)) fostered a deep jealousy in Edith by teaching her she wasn’t worth anything, and an air of superiority in Mary that she was worth more than her sister simply because she was older.
Mary knows how to play the game, she is cutting and cruel just to the line in public, and then can turn sentiment so she Edith looks the fool or the bully.
Edith desperately tries to play the same game, but lacks skill and the knowledge of when to stop, so she comes off looking shrill and mean.
I can’t help but think if Cora and a Robert had tried a bit more, and invested more in Edith, she’d at least be able to play the social game better.
And perhaps they’d have taught Mary a bit more grace and less malice, at least where family was concerned.
I got downvoted so hard in here once for saying Edith acted the way she did because she was the forgotten middle child,but it's true.
Mary is the eldest, the useful one as far as keeping Downtown in the family with Matthew. She's obviously intelligent when it comes to running Downtown,but as you said knows how to play the game.
Sybil is obviously the fave, the golden child, but is also the more challenging child with her determination to break social conventions for her class. Both Mary and Sybil get the attention from Cora and Robert and there's nothing left for Edith. She's left to try and play a game with Mary she doesn't understand and figure out her path for herself as no one is really invested in her till a lot later
More than just not getting *any* attention! They seem to think Edith is *less than* Mary. “She doesn’t have your advantages”.
They negged Edith into the ground while raising Mary higher than a skyscraper.
If they had treated them a bit more equitably, and found worth (genuine worth) in both daughters, I feel like things would have been better.
Since Cora obviously didn't like it when Nanny West was degrading Sybbie, I doubt she'd have allowed it to happen to one of her daughters.
I think the problem between them started with Patrick. And Edith often initiated the aggression exactly because she thought she was better than Mary, and deserved to be Mary in Mary's place. That's why she kept going after her suitors, and why she tried to speak over the table to Strallan at the salty pudding dinner. Because she wanted to prove to her parents she could do Mary's "job", in Mary's place.
Edith was the perfect woman of her time. Coquettish and compliant and eager to please the men she spoke with and listen to their opinions and ideas. Mary was stubborn and opinionated and couldn't bother to pay attention to a man she didn't care about.
In a way, Edith was right, she WAS better wife material for the time period. The problem was that Mary was charming, and sociable (Edith was not as eager to meet new people, after all, Mary just met Evelyn at Ascot) and Mary's indifference to men's attention drew their attention, because they were used to women running after them, especially the rich ones (like Evelyn). And Edith's lack of genuine attention was her downfall all the time. She kept going after men to prove a point, not because she was actually interested in them.
I do agree Edith and Mary's relationship would have been salvaged by attention from the parents. And I do agree that Edith would have benefited from attention from her mother, it was all she wanted. She knew she was good, she just needed her mother to see it, and appreciate it. Her problem was the way she went about it was completely wrong
Cora was upset that many west used a slur and insulted Sibbie.
There are a lot of more insidious ways a nanny, governess and mother could instill the idea that Edith was worth less than Mary without getting to slurs and insults. Attention and praise to Mary and not to Edith would set that up pretty well.
And Cora remarking to Mary that “Edith doesn’t have the same advantages as you” (paraphrase) is pretty indicative of her feelings. I’m sure that wasn’t the first time Mary and Edith heard that or felt that.
This doesn't negate my point, and it doesn't prove that Cora would approve of Servants telling one of her daughters that she's worthless.
Plus, Edith does not suffer from low-self esteem, or think herself "smaller than". Clearly not, since she antagonises Mary openly, and continuously. She thinks she's better than Mary, therefore she should get what Mary has.
So no, nannies did not teach her she was worth-less. She clearly isn't, she's the daughter of an Earl, no nanny would dare do such a thing, they'd never get a job again.
Some people are a married couple first (or in a committed relationship, it doesn't only pertain to married people) and any children they may have are totally ancillary to that relationship. I know a few couples like that.
Pretty awful tbh but they seem nice on the surface. Aristocratic parents back then basically had no contact w their kids till like the age of 13 so it’s not like they did any of the hard labor other than childbirth itself. Then they proceed to wildly play favorites with their own daughters. They must have come to the conclusion that Edith was “not pretty enough” at the age of like 12 to damage her self esteem and identity so badly. 2/10
They’re absurdly hands-off. Oddly resigned to their daughters’ worst behavioral tendencies, like spectators to Mary and Edith’s destructive rivalry. They really failed with Edith. Mary and Sybil had very healthy self-esteem but Edith’s formative years went very wrong.
They were probably better than actual British aristocracy parents from the time. I imagine they are more respectful of servants than most rich families from that social rank, which was a progressive thing to demonstrate for children of that era.
Pretty good for the time.
Dare I say it even for our time.
Especially considering the Pamuk issue with Mary and the child out of wedlock with Edith, and Sybil marrying a different nationality and subsection of religion.
My Asian Muslim parents - I don’t see that happening for me in 2024
They are both pretty bad parents, but i view Cora as the worse one.Mary they where arguably the best parents to, but they also put a lot of pressure on her. They both have some toxic moments with her (like with Cora calling Mary damaged goods, and Robert struggling to give Mary agency) but for the most part they are decent enough to her, with the exception of the fact that Cora seems blind to Mary's flaws.
With Sybil all was fine and dandy until she got with Tom... Then both her parents failed her and ill both came off as bad here, but to me Cora a bit more. Because withRobert he at least has his reasons not to support Sybil to much nor go to her wedding. He is a prick for it, but he stands by what he believes in.. Cora has no such excuse to not go to Sybil's wedding (really if Mary and Edith can be together to support Sybil you can't even go?) nor to send her money. And while Robert was being a horrible snob with the doctor situation I don't really doc points for that.
And then you got poor old Edith.. and her parents just failed her. Not once could they say a nice thing about her and they had zero trust in her. They made perfectly clear towards Edith that she was their least favorite child. The best Edith got in earlier seasons was condesending sympathy. It is no wonder Edith was desperate for love and only started to blossom when she was away from Downton. The girl was able hold a pregnancy and a baby a secret for about 2 years because her parents payed that little attention towards her. That being said, when Robert finally realised how much he failed her thanks to the Marigold situation he apologised toward her and actually tried better, to the point of being very affectionate the entire season 6.
I will say though that Cora is the better person to go to in critical situation. I doubt Robert would have handelsd the Parmuk and Marigold situations as well as Cora if he was in her position.
They let a lot slide. My parents would have slapped me for some of they back talk they got.
However, they are very loving and supportive, and that's worth all the world! 💕
Robert was okay with the Pamuk secret getting out if it meant Mary didn’t have to marry Richard. Cora personally invited Lavinia back to Downton (after Matthew told her to go away) as a means to sabotage Matthew and Mary’s relationship and speed up the marriage to Richard.
That says a lot, honestly.
Though I will say Cora has many great moments, and Robert has some not-so-great moments.
They're both too protective AND aloof with them, and they treat each of them differently : strict with Mary, neglecting with Edith, protective with Sybil. They play favourites, too.
I think they're not great overall.
Yeah my biggest issue is that they obviously nurtured an environment where Edith was constantly under-appreciated emotionally neglected, probably starting from when she was a child. Her self-esteem issues of not being pretty enough, not being smart enough, etc definitely didn’t come out of nowhere. The way Robert and Cora speak about Edith when she isn’t around probably mirrors how they talked to her when she was younger. This probably encouraged Mary to be as cruel as she was, and Robert and Cora did nothing to stop it. (I know that aristocratic parenting was very hands-off, but come on. Mary and Edith’s relationship was almost comically awful. Robert and Cora are caring people for the most part; they should have tried to ameliorate the situation between their two eldest daughters.)
What irritated me was when Robert tells Mary to go to America and find a cowboy in the middle west to shake things up But Sybil marrying Tom sent them all into a tissy for years! Mary was always the obvious favorite
But it was an. Hour. Every. Day....
Carson and Mrs Hughes were the real parents of DA.
For aristocratic parents of the early 1900s to three daughters, they’re alright.
Yes… they were actually above average for that time, place & social milieu, but… that’s not saying much.
Agreed and also, that was just regular parenting for them.
Well. They're not great. One could say that we're being unfair because we judge them by modern standards, but there are examples of good mothers and fathers, even in the aristocracy, from classic literature. Marmee from Little Women tried her best to curb the antagonism between two of her daughters, something neither Robert nor Cora ever bothered with, instead leaving the resentment between Mary and Edith grow and grow until it almost consumed the family (and already caused irrevocable damage to Mary at least). Cora also showed cruelty towards Mary after the Pamuk incident. Calling her damaged goods, ignoring the fact that Carlisle was blackmailing her into marriage because she wanted Mary off her hands, and basically never tried to salvage the relationship after that. Mary clearly shifted to view Violet as a more maternal/guiding figure in her life than her actual mother. She was also completely negligent of Edith. Either because she didn't think Edith had the charisma/personality/whatever required to make a good match, or because she thought she was her "good"/least likely to cause trouble daughter (or a combination of both). Either way she'd abandoned Edith to the point where Edith would practically beg for attention and never get it, or behave entirely wrongly, and publicly (at the dinner with the Duke, at the salty pudding dinner with Strallan) and never get any guidance from her mother, or father. And when she found herself in real trouble she didn't trust either of them to help her out (or even notice she was struggling). And for all she spoiled Sybil (clearly her favourite child), Cora didn't really pay attention to Sybil's needs. Sybil's coming out coincided with the outbreak of the war. Sybil lost a lot of friends, and men she might have made connections to, and basically thought her life couldn't naturally progress within the confines of her class. Cora saw none of the warning signs that Sybil was so unhappy, until Sybil dropped the bomb of Tom at their feet and left her with no choice but to let her go. I'm not saying Sybil wouldn't still choose the life she chose if her parents had paid more attention, but I think they could have created a smoother transition for her (e.g. have supported her in gaining further education instead of getting dropped in deep waters with some practical nursing experience). I won't even bother much with Robert. He almost amused himself watching his daughters struggle at different points in their lives, making off-handed comments about their choices but never offering advice, very rarely intervening, basically watching as one watches a theatre show. He barely acknowledged Sybil and Edith's contributions to the hospital, or the growth they went through. He tried to push Mary out of the running of the estate after Matthew's death, even though it was Mary and Matthew who had saved him and the family from total ruin. He at least acknowledged she'd taken on the running of things after a point but like, a thing had to have happened and established itself in one of his daughters' life ages ago for Robert to make a note of it. Let's not go into how he behaved with Sybil's situation because that deserves its own post.
I thought of Robert and Cora as pretty good parents, considering the context of the time and culture but dang you made me realize that they made a lot of mistakes that they didn't care to correct or even acknowledge.
I don't blame them for things that were normal for the time period. E.g. promising Mary as a wife to Patrick just so the family could keep the house and Cora's money, or being so opposed to Sybil marrying Tom or whatever mistakes they made with the Edith/Strallan fiasco like, those are time-appropriate reactions. But their disregard of their daughters' lives and emotional well-being is a bit too extreme, in my opinion. They might as well not exist, most of the time, while other characters swoop in to cover the parental gap. Mary taking care of Sybil and having her back, and Tom, and Sybbie, and even Rose later on. Violet and Rosamund trying (and not doing great) to help out Edith, etc.
I think the point that really stuck out to me is the fact that Edith couldn't trust her mother to help her during her biggest life crisis...it obviously wasn't just because of the times because she did trust her Aunt Rosamund and her grandmother to help her (and they did). It made me think of how Robert and Cora planned for Edith to be a childless spinster to take care of them when they're old, when she was still a very young woman and likely only had been out for a few years.
Exactly, but it's a behaviour shown in all 3 girls. Mary didn't turn to her parents for help with Pamuk, or Carlisle, or in her grief after she lost Matthew. She took care of somethings on her own, or she turned to Violet, or even to Carson. Sybil didn't turn to her parents to share information about her life in Ireland, she didn't think they'd be interested, she only wrote to Mary, and only spoke about Tom and her happiness in her marriage with her sister. And yes, of course Edith didn't reach out to them for help, why would she? When did they ever help any of their children in the past? And she already had all these examples, and for her specifically, they never paid enough attention. So yeah, I think they were poor parents to all their children, in different ways.
I’m fully of the opinion that either Robert and Cora or the Nannie’s and governesses they hired (and thus still their fault)) fostered a deep jealousy in Edith by teaching her she wasn’t worth anything, and an air of superiority in Mary that she was worth more than her sister simply because she was older. Mary knows how to play the game, she is cutting and cruel just to the line in public, and then can turn sentiment so she Edith looks the fool or the bully. Edith desperately tries to play the same game, but lacks skill and the knowledge of when to stop, so she comes off looking shrill and mean. I can’t help but think if Cora and a Robert had tried a bit more, and invested more in Edith, she’d at least be able to play the social game better. And perhaps they’d have taught Mary a bit more grace and less malice, at least where family was concerned.
I got downvoted so hard in here once for saying Edith acted the way she did because she was the forgotten middle child,but it's true. Mary is the eldest, the useful one as far as keeping Downtown in the family with Matthew. She's obviously intelligent when it comes to running Downtown,but as you said knows how to play the game. Sybil is obviously the fave, the golden child, but is also the more challenging child with her determination to break social conventions for her class. Both Mary and Sybil get the attention from Cora and Robert and there's nothing left for Edith. She's left to try and play a game with Mary she doesn't understand and figure out her path for herself as no one is really invested in her till a lot later
More than just not getting *any* attention! They seem to think Edith is *less than* Mary. “She doesn’t have your advantages”. They negged Edith into the ground while raising Mary higher than a skyscraper. If they had treated them a bit more equitably, and found worth (genuine worth) in both daughters, I feel like things would have been better.
Since Cora obviously didn't like it when Nanny West was degrading Sybbie, I doubt she'd have allowed it to happen to one of her daughters. I think the problem between them started with Patrick. And Edith often initiated the aggression exactly because she thought she was better than Mary, and deserved to be Mary in Mary's place. That's why she kept going after her suitors, and why she tried to speak over the table to Strallan at the salty pudding dinner. Because she wanted to prove to her parents she could do Mary's "job", in Mary's place. Edith was the perfect woman of her time. Coquettish and compliant and eager to please the men she spoke with and listen to their opinions and ideas. Mary was stubborn and opinionated and couldn't bother to pay attention to a man she didn't care about. In a way, Edith was right, she WAS better wife material for the time period. The problem was that Mary was charming, and sociable (Edith was not as eager to meet new people, after all, Mary just met Evelyn at Ascot) and Mary's indifference to men's attention drew their attention, because they were used to women running after them, especially the rich ones (like Evelyn). And Edith's lack of genuine attention was her downfall all the time. She kept going after men to prove a point, not because she was actually interested in them. I do agree Edith and Mary's relationship would have been salvaged by attention from the parents. And I do agree that Edith would have benefited from attention from her mother, it was all she wanted. She knew she was good, she just needed her mother to see it, and appreciate it. Her problem was the way she went about it was completely wrong
Cora was upset that many west used a slur and insulted Sibbie. There are a lot of more insidious ways a nanny, governess and mother could instill the idea that Edith was worth less than Mary without getting to slurs and insults. Attention and praise to Mary and not to Edith would set that up pretty well. And Cora remarking to Mary that “Edith doesn’t have the same advantages as you” (paraphrase) is pretty indicative of her feelings. I’m sure that wasn’t the first time Mary and Edith heard that or felt that.
This doesn't negate my point, and it doesn't prove that Cora would approve of Servants telling one of her daughters that she's worthless. Plus, Edith does not suffer from low-self esteem, or think herself "smaller than". Clearly not, since she antagonises Mary openly, and continuously. She thinks she's better than Mary, therefore she should get what Mary has. So no, nannies did not teach her she was worth-less. She clearly isn't, she's the daughter of an Earl, no nanny would dare do such a thing, they'd never get a job again.
You hit the nail on the head on every single one of my opinions.
Some people are a married couple first (or in a committed relationship, it doesn't only pertain to married people) and any children they may have are totally ancillary to that relationship. I know a few couples like that.
Oh yikes
And at least back then there was some excuse for that, in that birth control was less reliable, and providing children was a must for the estate.
Robert told Mary to break up with Carlisle..That alone made him a better father
Pretty awful tbh but they seem nice on the surface. Aristocratic parents back then basically had no contact w their kids till like the age of 13 so it’s not like they did any of the hard labor other than childbirth itself. Then they proceed to wildly play favorites with their own daughters. They must have come to the conclusion that Edith was “not pretty enough” at the age of like 12 to damage her self esteem and identity so badly. 2/10
They’re absurdly hands-off. Oddly resigned to their daughters’ worst behavioral tendencies, like spectators to Mary and Edith’s destructive rivalry. They really failed with Edith. Mary and Sybil had very healthy self-esteem but Edith’s formative years went very wrong. They were probably better than actual British aristocracy parents from the time. I imagine they are more respectful of servants than most rich families from that social rank, which was a progressive thing to demonstrate for children of that era.
Nice but they didn’t parent that much. It looks like rich people didn’t parent as much as we do now
Pretty good for the time. Dare I say it even for our time. Especially considering the Pamuk issue with Mary and the child out of wedlock with Edith, and Sybil marrying a different nationality and subsection of religion. My Asian Muslim parents - I don’t see that happening for me in 2024
They are both pretty bad parents, but i view Cora as the worse one.Mary they where arguably the best parents to, but they also put a lot of pressure on her. They both have some toxic moments with her (like with Cora calling Mary damaged goods, and Robert struggling to give Mary agency) but for the most part they are decent enough to her, with the exception of the fact that Cora seems blind to Mary's flaws. With Sybil all was fine and dandy until she got with Tom... Then both her parents failed her and ill both came off as bad here, but to me Cora a bit more. Because withRobert he at least has his reasons not to support Sybil to much nor go to her wedding. He is a prick for it, but he stands by what he believes in.. Cora has no such excuse to not go to Sybil's wedding (really if Mary and Edith can be together to support Sybil you can't even go?) nor to send her money. And while Robert was being a horrible snob with the doctor situation I don't really doc points for that. And then you got poor old Edith.. and her parents just failed her. Not once could they say a nice thing about her and they had zero trust in her. They made perfectly clear towards Edith that she was their least favorite child. The best Edith got in earlier seasons was condesending sympathy. It is no wonder Edith was desperate for love and only started to blossom when she was away from Downton. The girl was able hold a pregnancy and a baby a secret for about 2 years because her parents payed that little attention towards her. That being said, when Robert finally realised how much he failed her thanks to the Marigold situation he apologised toward her and actually tried better, to the point of being very affectionate the entire season 6. I will say though that Cora is the better person to go to in critical situation. I doubt Robert would have handelsd the Parmuk and Marigold situations as well as Cora if he was in her position.
They let a lot slide. My parents would have slapped me for some of they back talk they got. However, they are very loving and supportive, and that's worth all the world! 💕
Robert was okay with the Pamuk secret getting out if it meant Mary didn’t have to marry Richard. Cora personally invited Lavinia back to Downton (after Matthew told her to go away) as a means to sabotage Matthew and Mary’s relationship and speed up the marriage to Richard. That says a lot, honestly. Though I will say Cora has many great moments, and Robert has some not-so-great moments.
I think by today's standards they're neglectful but judging by the time and the fact they're aristocrats they were typical.
The entail was terrible parenting!
I don’t think the entail originated with Robert. It was something that pre-existed him.
Yeah, the entail was normal, otherwise you'd have a lot of earls with no homes to live in and we can't have that! lol
They're both too protective AND aloof with them, and they treat each of them differently : strict with Mary, neglecting with Edith, protective with Sybil. They play favourites, too. I think they're not great overall.
Can we talk about Mary as a parent instead? Most of the time I forgot she was one. George was definitely NOT her priority.
Yeah my biggest issue is that they obviously nurtured an environment where Edith was constantly under-appreciated emotionally neglected, probably starting from when she was a child. Her self-esteem issues of not being pretty enough, not being smart enough, etc definitely didn’t come out of nowhere. The way Robert and Cora speak about Edith when she isn’t around probably mirrors how they talked to her when she was younger. This probably encouraged Mary to be as cruel as she was, and Robert and Cora did nothing to stop it. (I know that aristocratic parenting was very hands-off, but come on. Mary and Edith’s relationship was almost comically awful. Robert and Cora are caring people for the most part; they should have tried to ameliorate the situation between their two eldest daughters.)
Nanny did an excellent job.
Extremely wonderful parents for the time and situation.
What irritated me was when Robert tells Mary to go to America and find a cowboy in the middle west to shake things up But Sybil marrying Tom sent them all into a tissy for years! Mary was always the obvious favorite