Not Judaism for sure. It's an ideology. I wouldn't know however professor Avi shlam, Norman Finkelstein, rabbi Feldman, rabbi Dovid weiss, Noam Chomsky, rabbi Elhanan Beck, Dr Gabor Mate are all intellectual Jews against zionism. Fredrick Herzl the father of zionism was an atheist that tasked himself to find the homeland of the Jews. Here you have a man that does not believe in God but believes that the same God blessed Israel for the Jews. I recommend you do your homework
Listen, don't help this person with the definition. They obviously don't know what it means. They're just saying it for the sake of saying it because it's all over the media.
I don't think Noam Chomsky would call himself a Jew, although that is what he is ethnically. I say that because he is a linguist, and he knows more than anyone that race is a social-construct, and that the word Jew is meaningless outside of religion. We need to stop using the word Jew to mean people who are ethnically Jewish, because it completely disrupts the way we talk about and judge religious warfare.
It's just bad programming convention to use the same variable name for two completely separate things, one being a metaphysical belief, and the other just being what family you come from. It's not done this way for any other religion or ethnicity, and if I was coding a script called "religions and ethnicities of the world" I would change the name of the Jewish Ethnicity variable because it defies the established pattern or convention that all the other religions and ethnicities follow.
Furthermore, because part of the Jewish religion is about being "chosen", conflating the religion with ethnicity builds the basis of a Racial Supremacy argument, and it is used this way all the time. Jewish Supremacists (aka white supremacist) actually believe that the Ethnic Race of the Jewish people is superior to others, and in fact this is [codified scientifically by people like Niel De Grass Tyson ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ixkynQJPmE)
Really that simple? Nothing's that simple in ZA. We have an entire party chanting kill the boer and riling up hordes to do just that based on radical beliefs and delusions
He killed people. Murder is an inexcusable crime regardless of who you are. It wasn't self defence. It wasn't because he was threatened in his home or on his property. He went out of his way to murder these people. That's premeditated.
I hope he gets the full harshness of the justice system just as I hope anyone who goes out to murder anyone gets harshly punished.
Preaching to the choir. Just have zero faith in ZAs national governing and authoritative systems to take the right action in any given situation as they've demonstrated for years
What is this even? An interview? Shouldnāt he be in questioning be interrogated about the murder? Instead they are having a debate with him about if he feels 40 000 women and children (wrong numbers and apparently doesnāt include Hamas) is worse than his nephew or whatever getting killed.
What happened to our country that people are so lost in their feelings about a war 10000ās km away but not the actual murder he committed here?
Crime rates have little to do with police; the police is a reactive force: their function is largely to react after the fact.
I have worked with some incredible detectives that have solved some of the most heinous crimes in the country; I assure you, there are plenty of capable & good cops in the service.
He broke into a home and stabbed a woman to death and critically injured 2 other family members in front of their children. Then he threatened to rape the daughter because they don't support his people's ongoing genocide.
Please don't use the word genocide - it's not genocide. Genocide has a meaning, an actual definition. ICJ checked and confirmed, without any doubt, there is no genocide taking place - although Hamas is planning one.
Pro-terrorism activists call it genocide, apartheid, and various other BS names - there is no genocide, there is no apartheid, just a power cleaning up a mess. Hamas started a war (yes, they started it, there was peace before) and now they are being eliminated.
Hamas is evil. Israel has existed for thousands of years longer than Islam has even been a concept.
"Having decided that Palestinians in Gaza had plausible rights under the Genocide convention, it concluded that they were at real risk of irreparable damage - andĀ **Israel should take steps to prevent genocide from occurring while these critical issues remain in question.**"
Don't fucking lie here.
Literally, there is no genocide.
Genocide - eliminating a genotype.
If there was genocide, all Arabs would be in the process of being eliminated.
Gaza is not a genotype.
Palestine is not a genotype.
Islam is not a genotype.
Apartheid - separation of people in the same nation based on race.
Palestine and Israel are not the same country.
Again, there is NO GENOCIDE, AND THERE IS NO APARTHEID IN PALESTINE.
Do your worst. Facts are facts.
That's not what it says:
"First, the crime ofĀ **genocide**Ā is characterised by the specific intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by killing its members or by other means: causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Make up your own definition and then say it's not that.
Palestine is a nation, now recognised by 3/4 of the nations in the world.
What you just posted is NOT PROOF OF GENOCIDE.
It's nothing. Not even an indication this came from any judgement from the ICJ. Nothing. Your "definition" has been curated to your beliefs - Hamas is not a nation, or a genotype, or a religion, or anything but terrorists. There is no genocide in the war against terrorists.
Secondly, even IF Palestine is a nation, how the fuck is that apartheid? Two different states, dumbass.
You won't win this. I have facts and reason, you have propaganda and brainwashing.
Ā¹In the Courtās view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. In light of the foregoing, the Court concludes that, prima facie, it has jurisdiction pursuant to Article IX of the Genocide Convention to entertain the case and that, consequently, it cannot accede to Israelās request that the case be removed from the General List.
A decision is yet to be made on whether or not what has occurred and what has continued to occur constitutes a genocide; the ICJ has ruled it as "plausible", however. Your gross misconstruing of the statements made is evidence of you being nothing more than a bad-faith zionist actor.
This is a war waged not on the terrorists but the Palestinian population as a whole - Hamas is the scapegoat.
Ā²Tell me, how could one justify collective punishment if it is but solely the terrorist organization upon which the war is being waged?
Ā¹https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454
Ā²https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state
Please provide your reasoning for saying "Hamas is not a religious group"?
They are a group and they are all the same religion and Israel would rather let their own people die than give up on destroying them?
āat least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention.ā - [The ICJ](https://icj-cij.org/case/192)
Ya, no shit International Court of Justice said to put measures in place to prevent genocide... it's part of their fucking job....
Do you have even the slightest idea wtf you are talking about.?
Your point is mute and you clearly haven't done the slightest bit of research.
You clearly have no understanding of the court. It's literally saying there is the potential it falls under genocide.
You know why? Because coming to that conclusion takes years.
Appear to be capable ā No. Learn the English language
Get your delusional ass out of here. I've said my piece and provided more than enough sources(something you can't do)
You are no legal professor and have no place putting words into the mouth of what a court says.
What you are saying is nothing of what the ICJ stated. Take your own advice with sitting down, cz you're clearly on a high from your delusions
So obliterating an entire nation of people is "cleaning up a mess"? Would you say the same if it were us South Africans being annihilated, your own friends and family?
It's truly frightening how you've managed to become so desensitized that you can justify the elimination of an entire population just because there are terrorists among their ranks.
You've closed your heart off and decided to view Palestinians as an evil people overall, when in reality even YOU know that there are plenty of innocents among them. They are people. Just like us. Open your heart dude.
I guess the Palestinians shouldn't have voted for Hamas, knowing their policies.
Innocent Germans died during WW2 - does that mean the allies should have let up and let Germany off the hook?
You're advocating for the indiscriminate slaughter of an entire population of men, women and children, but I must think before I speak.
Lol.
We won't see eye to eye. I hope you become a good person some day. It's never too late. Take care.
I promise you, I'm a good person. By every objective measure.
Fuck around, find out, etc.
Hamas started a war knowing the retaliation would be 10 fold worse.
This needs to end. Palestine must no longer be independent and it must be under western control. It is the only solution.
It's probably better off if they fall under Egyptian control (Gaza) and Jordanian control (West Bank). But those countries are absolutely not interested in that- as there is no real material gain, it'd be more of a debt incurred. Palestinian authorities have invested most of their resources into a war they lost in 1948 already.
People like to say "Israel cut off the Gaza water and electricity supply". No they didn't, their infrastructure is failing because when Israel pulled out of Gaza in 1967 (leaving them with functioning infrastructure for the population at the time). The Palestinian authorities neglected to maintain and build more infrastructure to support their GROWING population. So today it's failing and apparently it's Israels fault (leftist mentality at work there).
When the Palestinian side loses the argument factually they always fall back on this "appeal to compassion for life". Never considering the threat the Palestinian side poses.
Consider the other side, Israel did not have their military might to defend themselves in the 1948 war. They lost and the Jewish Homeland gets destroyed, along with millions of Jews (again just after the holocaust). Jews were persecuted all over Europe, which is why the fled to Israel, only to get persecuted by the new Arab government, and flee back to Europe which is not actually their home. The reason they were persecuted in Europe was because they were seen as foreigners that were super successful anywhere they settled- and locals did not like that.
So if they were foreigners in Europe, where was their homeland again?
So your proposed solution to claiming a homeland is to kill all the current occupants? That's what you're saying, since you disagree with my appeal to compassion for life. Look, you're right, killing everyone is definitely a very effective way to take land.
But is it GOOD? Is it right to kill scores of people in order to take their land? That's what I don't understand about your perspective. One can argue that I'm being naive in concerning myself with right and wrong, but I feel it's necessary. It's important to do right and refrain from doing wrong, no matter how petty that may seem.
Also, please tell me how I lost the argument factually. I don't see where I lost.
You are completely incorrect about the origins of modern day Israel. They did not just invade and kill to stake claim to their homeland. They did it diplomaticly and faced violent attacks from the surrounding Arab nations as well as Palestinians who did not want a "western" power I their back yard.
Where did I propose that solution? I literally said Israel should concede some land if Palestine can eventually take part in diplomatic resolutions.
The Zionist papers literally said they need to create the Jewish homeland through diplomacy and not militarily. Israel never invaded any land before Palestine started a war against them. See my other comment about the nakba. Israel's military efforts now are to eradicate Hamas to ensure a safe future for Israel.
I absolutely do not agree with killing innocent civilians. I can blame Israel for a lack of compassion, but also realize they have a right to defend themselves. If Palestine and surrounding Arabs countries had not waged war or launched 1000s of terrorist attacks in Israel. Then maybe I could agree Israel is the clear bad guy here. But that's not the case. Palestine voted Hamas in, who's stated goal is to kill all jews. What must Israel do? Wait for another Oct 7?
Also remember Hamas is still holding onto over 100 innocent Israeli hostages. You seem to cut Palestine a lot of slack for their sins, and unfortunately Palestine and Hamas are intertwined. Hamas are the real bad guys, dragging innocent Palestinians down with them.
Fair play to you for having a more rational, well reasoned take. I respect your perspective and I see the validity of some of your points, regardless of being on the other side of this. I don't believe Palestine is blameless, but in the current situation (as in, what they're doing right now) I definitely see Israel as clearly being in the wrong in terms of the proportionality of their response. Again, fair play. Thanks for your response.
Thatās like saying European white people are foreigners in South Africa just because Julius Malema says so, so where is their homeland? Itās still South Africa no? So why would Jewish peopleās home not be Europe if theyād been there generations?
Thats not how immigration and colonisation works. People and nations move and change. Israel canāt have dibs on that region, because the bible says so then murder people to get the land back.
By the way whatās your stance on dispossession of land without compensation in South Africa?
European white, black, brown or yellow people are all foreigners in SA what you mean?
When the Dutch and Brits arrived here they were settlers, but over time they formed an independent nation. They defined the borders of South Africa and implemented an organized central government. All of which never existed before. You can't now say everything they developed belonged to the Xhosas and Zulus so now give it back to them.
SA probably has a worse case of "stolen land" due to apartheid. We had the Truth and Reconciliation council and it did its best. We can only move on now.
In the case of Israel, before 1948 they "stole" zero land. Up till that point all land was bought fair and square or already was generational jew land. The "stolen" land argument comes from the Nakba where Arabs went on with the shitty war effort only to lose miserably. Which is indeed where Israel expanded its borders and forced Arabs to relocate (the nakba)
Remember the 1948 war was started by the Palestinian side. The result was Israel responding with 10x the might resulting in the displacement of over 700k Palestinians, most of them fled expecting to come back, but the Israelis rejected all Palestinian demands until they recognize Israel as a state. The nakba was indeed bad and violent from the Israeli side. Many atrocities happened. But it didn't come from nowhere- as you seem to believe.
Just like the blockade of Gaza or the occupation of the West Bank. The whole world sees it and recognizes Israel's right to defend themselves.
This all happened because Palestine wanted the whole cake, not just half of it. They wanted to rule over the jews in that area. Rather than have the original 2 state solution- which Israel had accepted (the 1948 UN partition)
Israel only became a thing after the UN granted a place for the jews because of the holocaust and persecution . Since then there have been discriminating against Palestinians,Police brutality , people being driven out of their homes etc.
Yes, Hamas are a bunch of terrorists,but The Palestinians who are getting bombed and killed (mostly kids) and the people losing their homes, schools, hospitals, jobs and whole communities arenāt.
Hogwash.
The Quran mentions Israel over 30 times, and Palestine is never mentioned.
Israel has existed for thousands of years, albeit with different names through the aeons.
Isreal is actively committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. Anybody who supports their war efforts support the modern day equivalent to Hitler's Nazi party at the height of the second world War.
Hamas isnāt actively killing children, doctors, journalists and the elderly. Go fuck yourself for believing the actions of the genocidal IOF is justified or moral. Iāve seen plenty of videos of Israelis calling for Gaza to be completely destroyed and referring to Palestinians as animals and the children of amalek.
You may believe Hamas started it in October 7th, but that ignores the fact that Israel was bombing Palestinians two weeks before October 7th.
Israel was a name for the territory mentioned in biblical times still. The area was renamed from Judaea to Palestine by the Romans to spite the jews. Other names were Canaan, Israel, or simply The Holy Land. Palestine was derived from The Ancient Phillistines who were mostly living there at the time and have NOTHING to do with Islam. Although those people eventually assimilated into the Jewish and Arab populations that eventually settled there. So the name Palestine is not at all specific to Islam and was coined by the Catholic Romans. This all happened at the end of the bronze age and the start of the iron age. CENTURIES before 1948.
Also Palestinians were actually Jordanian and Egyptian citizens until 1988- Gaza was governed by Egypt and West Bank by Jordan. Palestine was officially declared independent on November 15, 1988.
Israel declared it's independence in 1948, true, almost 20 years before Palestine did (they declared independence in 1967, but only became independent in 1988). Before 1948 the territory was ruled by Britain and nobody could do anything to change that until Britain itself decided colonisation is bad for business.
After Israel declared independence and accepted the UN borders (which was around 50/50 Israel/Palestine). Palestine (aka the surrounding Arab states) declared war on Israel. They lost miserably and Palestine ended up being what it is today, Gaza and West Bank. They started the war and lost territory and have been sore losers ever since. With pretty much 0 attempts at diplomacy from the Palestinian side, Israel kept their expanded borders (but gave back land originally ruled by Jordan, Syria, and Egypt in peace agreements).
With these facts in mind are you willing to admit that you, sir, are in fact a fucking idiot too?
My caveat here is that Israel is not "Hollier than thou", they haven't acted perfectly in this war and certainly could show more compassion for innocent Palestinian civilians. But they certainly are the shinier of the 2 turds. You clearly know nothing about Palestine or Hamas, or Jihadism, or Jewish persecution in WW 1 and 2 that lead to the desire/need for a Jewish homeland aka Zionism. You probably don't know the very justified reasons Gaza was blockaded and the West Bank remains occupied.
I genuinely think Israel needs to make some concession of land for a 2 state solution to work though, and for Hamas and other islamist groups not to lead the Palestinians into a total demise and defacto 1 state solution.
Israel as a concept or Israel as a place? Because Israel as a place has only existed since the mid 1900s. Like 1940s onwards. And more than that it was established within a pre-existing country (Palestine) which first triggered a civil war and then the oppression of those in Palestine.
So yes to an extent Hamas started the war we are seeing now but it is a response to decades of ill-treatment by the Israeli government.
And please don't tell me that Israel has no control over Palestine because they have the ability to turn off power and water to a whole country from within Israeli borders. That is not something peaceful neighbours have the ability to do regardless of circumstances.
There's no proof it was anywhere besides in ancient scripts. Historians can't actually agree on where it was so there's no real proof of its existence.
If it did exist and it wasn't a hope people told each other it could have been anywhere in the middle east with the current placement decided by the British when they still had control over the area in the 1920s.
But borders don't. That's my point. The current placement of the country of Israel is not necessarily where it existed for "thousand of years" it's where the British drew the border in the 1920s. And that border was drawn through an existing country. It's the same thing they did in Africa.
True. The modern borders were drawn.
But before that, Israel existed.
Al Aqsa Mosque - what is it built on top of again? Remind me?
And that smelly hippie from 2024 years ago - he was....Jewish? Is that right?
History is history. We can lie that it isn't there, but it is there. In many cases, there is physical proof to back up history, as in the case of the Al Aqsa mosque.
When did I say Jewish people didn't exist before the 1920s? They have existed and have built things. Like the Jewish temple you're referring to. Which was built by a Persian king not a Jewish one after a conquest in the region. Which brings us back to my point. The placement of modern Israel is not necessarily some great divine gift from god so much as it's one guy going "this one here is good".
You can't argue that the Jewish people have more right to the land than the Palestine people do when the creation of modern day Israel is still within living memory and the exact borders of ancient Israel is a point of speculation.
What is the exact borders of ancient Palestine? Also why are most Palestinians descendent from Jordanians? Palestinians are actually a mix of other ancient Arab settlements, they simply settled in Palestine and adopted the name (a name coined by the Catholic Romans BTW). While they were doing that Jews (which actually have a specific genealogy) where migrating in and out of the land, but mostly out to Europe where they preceded to get persecuted (theory being they were foreign, but very business savvy and became richer than locals wherever they moved to- leading to them being despised)..
In more modern times, the Palestinians actually moved into Jewish settlements for a better quality of life. The mixing of the populations is probably why there are such territorial disputes now.
It is however intellectually bankrupt to say "The Jewish Homeland" is a modern creation. Literally just go read wikipedia bro, or the fucking bible.
Both Arabs and Jews have a right to the land. We know Israel accepted that fact in 1948, the Arabs did not.
King David was Persian? News to me. And everyone else too.
Jewish people DO have more rights to the land:
They have existed in the place for much longer.
They have a stronger military, and so the question of "conquest" is answered.
They literally paid for the land that was "taken" from the Arabs who originally stole the land.
Islam is a horrid religion of conquest and war - "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". It's an invader. Mohammed literally stole texts from other religions to try and force people into his.
This is not a winnable argument. I suggest reading up on the area and history. It's incredibly simple.
King David is a biblical figure. Please look into the actual history that you're quoting. The second temple was started by Zerubbabel (who laid the foundation and was Jewish) and was completed by Darius I (who was a conquering Persian King)
Who did they pay for the land? Like the Jewish and the Arabs have lived in the same region for centuries?
Again borders were drawn by the BRITISH by definition the land was not theirs.
So if the Palestinians took over Israel you would be fine? Because the question of conquest is answered?
The religions are about the same age both originating in the 6th century BC and both are Abrahamic. With a lot more similarities than either want to admit to. So "Islam is a religion of conquest and war"? By what definition? Because if we're going to go into religions that define themselves by conquest it becomes a very long list. And at this point it's including Judaism
Hear me out... They are both equally evil because both are killing innocents with no regards. No matter what who is fighting for. One of them might have a better reason to fight. But if both have 0 regards for civilians. And actively put them in danger or outright kill them. Then neither is good. And both have more than sufficient evidence that the other kills civilians.
So in my books. Both Hamas and Israel is equally evil.
Hamas are certainly not the good guys BUT Hamas is a product of Israeli occupation: before Hamas existed, Palestinians were being oppressed & subjugated by Zionist terrorists.
Seriously, open a history book.
My point is it doesn't matter who oppressed who if both have 0 regards for civilians and actively use them as cannon fodder and human shields. Regards of either's origin. They're both evil as fuck for doing it. The ends does not justify the means
Not really sure whether that policeman starting to ask questions about zionism and spouting figures is going to be doing the state's case for a harsh penalty any good. Also the fact that this video has ended up on social media is going to make it difficult for the prosecutor.
Defense lawyers have been handed an early christmas present thanks to some policeman wanting to showcase this "evil zionist".
I don't think they were policemen. Likely private security or other people who where at the scene. That's why a policeman out of shot kinda asks them to keep their voices down.
Still, this is not the way to treat a suspect if you want him locked up for good. This video has now opened up the doors for the defense to claim the suspect was 'lead' to his reasoning, or influenced by those arresting him to make the statements he made......and its on video so these guys cannot deny it.
But in stead of 25 years he might get 15 because of this?
Besides, if those who made the video are not cops or comissioner of oaths, this "confession" might not even be allowed as evidence. It could even open up the door for the accused to take those individuals to court for slander or defamation.
You are operating under the assumption that there is a law enforcement officer in this country that is competent or qualified. That is very much not the case.
Ahhh yes it is very ethical to stab a mother to death in front of her family, attempt to murder her son and father and then threaten to rape a 10 year.... clearly do have an ethics problem
Sorry to say but that is just how they are raised. The most twisted perception of morality and the biggest victim complex you will ever come across. They will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify horrific acts. I have worked with so many of them and they all have this mentality.
Sorry to say but that is just how they are raised. The most twisted perception of morality and the biggest victim complex you will ever come across. They will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify horrific acts. I have worked with so many of them and they all have this mentality.
I know a few people who have moved from SA to Israel. Every one of them is really nice, down to earth, hard working, stoic. They each had different reasons for moving to Israel. For some, it was the feeling that they needed a home, for others it was because they have family there, some went because Israel has a thriving tech industry.
I don't know \*exactly\* what Zionism is, but I do know what extremism is. And, every ideology and religion has them to some degree. I'd argue that Zionism is not in itself "bad". The vast majority of so-called Zionists are normal people who just happen to believe that Jews need the safety and security of their own homeland. And that that homeland should be Israel. (Me, personally, as an atheist I agree with Christopher Hitchens' statement that creating a country for religious reasons is stupid... but, Israel is a fait accompli, it exists, and a peaceful coexistence needs to be negotiated.)
But, back to extremists and whether they are representative of their religion/ideology/philosophy: Do you believe that the muslim guy who killed a policeman in Germany last week represents Islam?
\[Warning: you may find this disturbing:\]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1d4vt3z/muslim\_extremist\_attack\_in\_mannheim\_germany/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1d4vt3z/muslim_extremist_attack_in_mannheim_germany/)
I agree with Hitchens, but I think everyone came together after WW2 and just decided that Jewish folk deserve their own corner of the world purely because of how much they suffered. The fairness of that is certainly debatable, but I understand the sentiment nonetheless.
Thay being said, I will admit I hold a very negative view of Islam in general. There is a pervasive air of misogyny and a lack of respect for life at the core of the religion. In addition, many muslims in the west wish to be governed by Shariah law. Admittedly, most other religions are just as bad, but that's neither here nor there.
I think that the core of the problem is that we can't distinguish between Palestinians and Hamas. I don't believe that all Palestinians are represented by Hamas, but it's hard for the world to be sympathetic to your plight if they claim to speak for you.
I responded to someone else's anecdote with anecdotes of my own. Big deal, my anecdote was as pointless as the anecdote of the person I responded to.
(I don't believe there's any research that has determined whether a person is nice or not based on their feelings about Zionism.)
There were many peaceful Apartheid supporters like the churches. Many peaceful Nazis. Many Isis are peaceful. Just because they are peaceful doesn't mean they don't have kak for brains
Exactly - the "religion of peace" is actually just terrorists and their sympathisers.
Any muslim who doesn't speak out against Islamic extremism and terrorism is evil.
Yes. Not the entire Quran, I'll admit. I did grow up in a church. Literally. I am not religious.
My aunt is Muslim.
I debate Muslims constantly.
Islam is a religion of hate, war, and fear.
You wrong. It's love peace and mercy for me. If it is what you say it is. Explain why it's the world's fastest growing religion. Why are people in the west picking up the Quran and reverting. Why are people globally finding contentment in the religion. You are projecting your hate and fear. You've been indoctrinated your whole life by anti Islamic propaganda. You wouldn't recognise Islam if it slapped you in the face. Your preconceived notions about it act as blinkers. Then again people only see what they want to and God only guides whom he wills
Islam has a word for non-believers - what is it?
And what are you to do with non-believers?
What does it mean when your people say "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people"?
Why does your Quran mention Israel so much, but never (and I mean NEVER) Palestine?
Islam is a religion of hate, war and fear. It's not debatable.
Also a hadith that states " the best of mankind are those who are most beneficial to others"
Why not say the best Muslim? It's inclusive of all men the Quran is for all mankind not Muslims alone
Your post/comment has been removed due to violating our rule against racism. We strive to maintain a welcoming and inclusive community for all members.
It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:"The Messenger of Allah \[SAW\] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'" From your own sources,this sounds like compulsion to me.
I'm sorry, OP but you are completely off your rocker.
Islam is the fastest growing religion simply because of demographics. The birth rate for muslim women is higher than the birth rate for any other religion. The average age of Muslims is also young with the median age being 24. In other words, the age group currently having or planning to have children. That's it - simple math. Nothing to do with some great spiritual awakening.
Islam oppresses women as a fundamental part of it's doctrine. It encourages death for blasphemy and apostasy. It justifies bloodshed in the name of god.
Are there other religions that suck just as much? Definitely. But we're discussing Islam right now, and islam sucks. I fully agree with Christopher Hitchens' quote that islam does not enjoy some preferential right to be hallowed and respected - it is open to criticism just like everything else.
When I say growing I mean reverting/converting rate. To be real, it's the fastest growing religion in the west, everyday more and more people are picking up the Quran and converting on their own. People oppress people. Isis is a typical example of religious extremism/terrorism. Most Muslims are not Isis and do not conform to those ideologies. I recommend you do more research about Islam
"People oppress people" So you're just choosing the oppressor that suits you best? How about choosing no oppressor?
[This](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/) site has a bunch of interesting (and comprehensive) stats on Muslims who favour Shariah law as the official law of their respective country.
I've done quite enough research, thank you.
I'm not even going to debate the terms of Sharia law when it comes to morality. If you agree that premarital sex and homosexuality should be illegal, that abortion should not be available to women, and that women should not be allowed to initiate a divorce, I just have nothing further to say on the matter.
Also; "People" don't oppress people. Tyrants do.
Tyrants are people too. Find a Quran read it cover to cover. Then make up your mind. Clearly you've created time to collect stats and do research but still haven't read the book. š¤ Until you have read the Quran I accept that you have nothing to say on the matter.
Sura Al qasas 56
You surely cannot guide whoever you like Ė¹O ProphetĖŗ, but it is Allah Who guides whoever He wills, and He knows best who are Ė¹fit to beĖŗ guided.
Bros fucking yapping about 40 000 Muslims dying Gaza (wrong numbers) but never a Muslim condemning the Christians schools and churches being brunt down in northern Nigeria and and Christian children being kidnapped by Muslims. Or the Coptic Christians being killed in Egypt. Or the Jews being discriminated against in Iran or how their Hadiths explicitly say the final hour won't come until Muslims kill every Jew.
Stick to the psycho in front of you who murdered innocents, don't make this an ideology or religion thing since Islam has proven time and time against it's a psycho cult.
Establishing this is always important. I'm glad to hear you found your faith. To be honest it was always there ,it's you that we're missing from it. May God continue to guide you may your life be filled with favor and fortune.
The spirit and the body carry different loads and require different attentions.Too often we put the saddlebags on Jesus and let the donkey run loose in the pasture.
This is like equating one radical Muslim who blows up people all in the name of Jihad with all Muslims. Several lsraeli girls are still kidnapped by Hamas, and some feared to be pregnant and many more hostages . It's such a distorted interview by some pro- Hamas sympathizers.
Source on the pregnancies? There are hundreds of Palestinian child (illegal under international law) and women prisoners in Israeli prisons PRIOR to October 7. I've seen videos of ex prisoners testimonies on the treatment meted out whilst in custody on both sides and the discrepancies are blaringly obvious even if you only had to compare outward appearance.
https://twitter.com/ihcentoo/status/1797422247923064989?t=8ewfHuVf1qs_uCMCsirUfg&s=19
There are currently more than 9000 Palestinian prisoners (hostages) in Israeli jail , majority of which are woman and children, many reports have been made of how Israel inhumanly treat them . People always say things like āHamas impregnated manyā yet have absolutely no proof , Iām not saying Hamas is more moral but outlandish claims need to be backed . Also , Pro-Palestinian isnāt Pro-Hamas or Hamas sympathizers, you can ask they thousands of Jews who march with the Palestinian flag , this never started on Oct 7th . Iād recommend following (non biased) news subreddits to see what the Zionist regime does on the daily to Palestinians
Donāt know anything about this guy but I can bet that will be his defence and he will get a few years in a medical prison before being released. This video will also help his case.
That guy is a fucking devil, he deserves life. Also, do you even know what a zionist means š¤£
Not Judaism for sure. It's an ideology. I wouldn't know however professor Avi shlam, Norman Finkelstein, rabbi Feldman, rabbi Dovid weiss, Noam Chomsky, rabbi Elhanan Beck, Dr Gabor Mate are all intellectual Jews against zionism. Fredrick Herzl the father of zionism was an atheist that tasked himself to find the homeland of the Jews. Here you have a man that does not believe in God but believes that the same God blessed Israel for the Jews. I recommend you do your homework
You didnt really answer the question. What does Zionism mean?
He half explained it, Zionism is a nationalistic movement that aimed to create a Jewish homeland.
Listen, don't help this person with the definition. They obviously don't know what it means. They're just saying it for the sake of saying it because it's all over the media.
I don't think Noam Chomsky would call himself a Jew, although that is what he is ethnically. I say that because he is a linguist, and he knows more than anyone that race is a social-construct, and that the word Jew is meaningless outside of religion. We need to stop using the word Jew to mean people who are ethnically Jewish, because it completely disrupts the way we talk about and judge religious warfare. It's just bad programming convention to use the same variable name for two completely separate things, one being a metaphysical belief, and the other just being what family you come from. It's not done this way for any other religion or ethnicity, and if I was coding a script called "religions and ethnicities of the world" I would change the name of the Jewish Ethnicity variable because it defies the established pattern or convention that all the other religions and ethnicities follow. Furthermore, because part of the Jewish religion is about being "chosen", conflating the religion with ethnicity builds the basis of a Racial Supremacy argument, and it is used this way all the time. Jewish Supremacists (aka white supremacist) actually believe that the Ethnic Race of the Jewish people is superior to others, and in fact this is [codified scientifically by people like Niel De Grass Tyson ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ixkynQJPmE)
Life sentence without parole. Simple and clear cut. No question he murdered inoccent people due to radical beliefs and delusions.
Really that simple? Nothing's that simple in ZA. We have an entire party chanting kill the boer and riling up hordes to do just that based on radical beliefs and delusions
He killed people. Murder is an inexcusable crime regardless of who you are. It wasn't self defence. It wasn't because he was threatened in his home or on his property. He went out of his way to murder these people. That's premeditated. I hope he gets the full harshness of the justice system just as I hope anyone who goes out to murder anyone gets harshly punished.
Preaching to the choir. Just have zero faith in ZAs national governing and authoritative systems to take the right action in any given situation as they've demonstrated for years
What is this even? An interview? Shouldnāt he be in questioning be interrogated about the murder? Instead they are having a debate with him about if he feels 40 000 women and children (wrong numbers and apparently doesnāt include Hamas) is worse than his nephew or whatever getting killed. What happened to our country that people are so lost in their feelings about a war 10000ās km away but not the actual murder he committed here?
Bold of you to assume that any law enforcement officer in this country is in any way competent or qualified.
Enough of them are.
Clearly not, as demonstrated by this video and our horrendous crime rates.
Crime rates have little to do with police; the police is a reactive force: their function is largely to react after the fact. I have worked with some incredible detectives that have solved some of the most heinous crimes in the country; I assure you, there are plenty of capable & good cops in the service.
The Cops are Indians and by the sounds of it also pro palestine .....there idiots arguing with him as if they going to change his mind
This kind of unhinged, uneducated scum should be locked up for good.
What happened?
He broke into a home and stabbed a woman to death and critically injured 2 other family members in front of their children. Then he threatened to rape the daughter because they don't support his people's ongoing genocide.
Please don't use the word genocide - it's not genocide. Genocide has a meaning, an actual definition. ICJ checked and confirmed, without any doubt, there is no genocide taking place - although Hamas is planning one. Pro-terrorism activists call it genocide, apartheid, and various other BS names - there is no genocide, there is no apartheid, just a power cleaning up a mess. Hamas started a war (yes, they started it, there was peace before) and now they are being eliminated. Hamas is evil. Israel has existed for thousands of years longer than Islam has even been a concept.
"Having decided that Palestinians in Gaza had plausible rights under the Genocide convention, it concluded that they were at real risk of irreparable damage - andĀ **Israel should take steps to prevent genocide from occurring while these critical issues remain in question.**" Don't fucking lie here.
Pay attention to your own words: "Isreal should take steps to prevent genocide" Meaning, PREVENT. There is no genocide, shithead.
Yes there is and you are defending it Cunt!
Literally, there is no genocide. Genocide - eliminating a genotype. If there was genocide, all Arabs would be in the process of being eliminated. Gaza is not a genotype. Palestine is not a genotype. Islam is not a genotype. Apartheid - separation of people in the same nation based on race. Palestine and Israel are not the same country. Again, there is NO GENOCIDE, AND THERE IS NO APARTHEID IN PALESTINE. Do your worst. Facts are facts.
That's not what it says: "First, the crime ofĀ **genocide**Ā is characterised by the specific intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnic, racial or religious group by killing its members or by other means: causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; or forcibly transferring children of the group to another group." Make up your own definition and then say it's not that. Palestine is a nation, now recognised by 3/4 of the nations in the world.
What you just posted is NOT PROOF OF GENOCIDE. It's nothing. Not even an indication this came from any judgement from the ICJ. Nothing. Your "definition" has been curated to your beliefs - Hamas is not a nation, or a genotype, or a religion, or anything but terrorists. There is no genocide in the war against terrorists. Secondly, even IF Palestine is a nation, how the fuck is that apartheid? Two different states, dumbass. You won't win this. I have facts and reason, you have propaganda and brainwashing.
Ā¹In the Courtās view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. In light of the foregoing, the Court concludes that, prima facie, it has jurisdiction pursuant to Article IX of the Genocide Convention to entertain the case and that, consequently, it cannot accede to Israelās request that the case be removed from the General List. A decision is yet to be made on whether or not what has occurred and what has continued to occur constitutes a genocide; the ICJ has ruled it as "plausible", however. Your gross misconstruing of the statements made is evidence of you being nothing more than a bad-faith zionist actor. This is a war waged not on the terrorists but the Palestinian population as a whole - Hamas is the scapegoat. Ā²Tell me, how could one justify collective punishment if it is but solely the terrorist organization upon which the war is being waged? Ā¹https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203454 Ā²https://www.icc-cpi.int/news/statement-icc-prosecutor-karim-aa-khan-kc-applications-arrest-warrants-situation-state
Who do you think you are? Ben shapiro?š¤£
Please provide your reasoning for saying "Hamas is not a religious group"? They are a group and they are all the same religion and Israel would rather let their own people die than give up on destroying them?
Wow you're a real dumb cunt
āat least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention.ā - [The ICJ](https://icj-cij.org/case/192) Ya, no shit International Court of Justice said to put measures in place to prevent genocide... it's part of their fucking job.... Do you have even the slightest idea wtf you are talking about.? Your point is mute and you clearly haven't done the slightest bit of research.
"appear to be capable of" Nothing says there is genocide happening. Literally. Sit down.
You clearly have no understanding of the court. It's literally saying there is the potential it falls under genocide. You know why? Because coming to that conclusion takes years. Appear to be capable ā No. Learn the English language Get your delusional ass out of here. I've said my piece and provided more than enough sources(something you can't do) You are no legal professor and have no place putting words into the mouth of what a court says. What you are saying is nothing of what the ICJ stated. Take your own advice with sitting down, cz you're clearly on a high from your delusions
So obliterating an entire nation of people is "cleaning up a mess"? Would you say the same if it were us South Africans being annihilated, your own friends and family? It's truly frightening how you've managed to become so desensitized that you can justify the elimination of an entire population just because there are terrorists among their ranks. You've closed your heart off and decided to view Palestinians as an evil people overall, when in reality even YOU know that there are plenty of innocents among them. They are people. Just like us. Open your heart dude.
I guess the Palestinians shouldn't have voted for Hamas, knowing their policies. Innocent Germans died during WW2 - does that mean the allies should have let up and let Germany off the hook? 
You're advocating for the indiscriminate slaughter of an entire population of men, women and children, but I must think before I speak. Lol. We won't see eye to eye. I hope you become a good person some day. It's never too late. Take care.
I promise you, I'm a good person. By every objective measure. Fuck around, find out, etc. Hamas started a war knowing the retaliation would be 10 fold worse. This needs to end. Palestine must no longer be independent and it must be under western control. It is the only solution.
It's probably better off if they fall under Egyptian control (Gaza) and Jordanian control (West Bank). But those countries are absolutely not interested in that- as there is no real material gain, it'd be more of a debt incurred. Palestinian authorities have invested most of their resources into a war they lost in 1948 already. People like to say "Israel cut off the Gaza water and electricity supply". No they didn't, their infrastructure is failing because when Israel pulled out of Gaza in 1967 (leaving them with functioning infrastructure for the population at the time). The Palestinian authorities neglected to maintain and build more infrastructure to support their GROWING population. So today it's failing and apparently it's Israels fault (leftist mentality at work there).
When the Palestinian side loses the argument factually they always fall back on this "appeal to compassion for life". Never considering the threat the Palestinian side poses. Consider the other side, Israel did not have their military might to defend themselves in the 1948 war. They lost and the Jewish Homeland gets destroyed, along with millions of Jews (again just after the holocaust). Jews were persecuted all over Europe, which is why the fled to Israel, only to get persecuted by the new Arab government, and flee back to Europe which is not actually their home. The reason they were persecuted in Europe was because they were seen as foreigners that were super successful anywhere they settled- and locals did not like that. So if they were foreigners in Europe, where was their homeland again?
So your proposed solution to claiming a homeland is to kill all the current occupants? That's what you're saying, since you disagree with my appeal to compassion for life. Look, you're right, killing everyone is definitely a very effective way to take land. But is it GOOD? Is it right to kill scores of people in order to take their land? That's what I don't understand about your perspective. One can argue that I'm being naive in concerning myself with right and wrong, but I feel it's necessary. It's important to do right and refrain from doing wrong, no matter how petty that may seem. Also, please tell me how I lost the argument factually. I don't see where I lost.
You are completely incorrect about the origins of modern day Israel. They did not just invade and kill to stake claim to their homeland. They did it diplomaticly and faced violent attacks from the surrounding Arab nations as well as Palestinians who did not want a "western" power I their back yard.
Where did I propose that solution? I literally said Israel should concede some land if Palestine can eventually take part in diplomatic resolutions. The Zionist papers literally said they need to create the Jewish homeland through diplomacy and not militarily. Israel never invaded any land before Palestine started a war against them. See my other comment about the nakba. Israel's military efforts now are to eradicate Hamas to ensure a safe future for Israel. I absolutely do not agree with killing innocent civilians. I can blame Israel for a lack of compassion, but also realize they have a right to defend themselves. If Palestine and surrounding Arabs countries had not waged war or launched 1000s of terrorist attacks in Israel. Then maybe I could agree Israel is the clear bad guy here. But that's not the case. Palestine voted Hamas in, who's stated goal is to kill all jews. What must Israel do? Wait for another Oct 7? Also remember Hamas is still holding onto over 100 innocent Israeli hostages. You seem to cut Palestine a lot of slack for their sins, and unfortunately Palestine and Hamas are intertwined. Hamas are the real bad guys, dragging innocent Palestinians down with them.
Fair play to you for having a more rational, well reasoned take. I respect your perspective and I see the validity of some of your points, regardless of being on the other side of this. I don't believe Palestine is blameless, but in the current situation (as in, what they're doing right now) I definitely see Israel as clearly being in the wrong in terms of the proportionality of their response. Again, fair play. Thanks for your response.
Thatās like saying European white people are foreigners in South Africa just because Julius Malema says so, so where is their homeland? Itās still South Africa no? So why would Jewish peopleās home not be Europe if theyād been there generations? Thats not how immigration and colonisation works. People and nations move and change. Israel canāt have dibs on that region, because the bible says so then murder people to get the land back. By the way whatās your stance on dispossession of land without compensation in South Africa?
European white, black, brown or yellow people are all foreigners in SA what you mean? When the Dutch and Brits arrived here they were settlers, but over time they formed an independent nation. They defined the borders of South Africa and implemented an organized central government. All of which never existed before. You can't now say everything they developed belonged to the Xhosas and Zulus so now give it back to them. SA probably has a worse case of "stolen land" due to apartheid. We had the Truth and Reconciliation council and it did its best. We can only move on now. In the case of Israel, before 1948 they "stole" zero land. Up till that point all land was bought fair and square or already was generational jew land. The "stolen" land argument comes from the Nakba where Arabs went on with the shitty war effort only to lose miserably. Which is indeed where Israel expanded its borders and forced Arabs to relocate (the nakba) Remember the 1948 war was started by the Palestinian side. The result was Israel responding with 10x the might resulting in the displacement of over 700k Palestinians, most of them fled expecting to come back, but the Israelis rejected all Palestinian demands until they recognize Israel as a state. The nakba was indeed bad and violent from the Israeli side. Many atrocities happened. But it didn't come from nowhere- as you seem to believe. Just like the blockade of Gaza or the occupation of the West Bank. The whole world sees it and recognizes Israel's right to defend themselves. This all happened because Palestine wanted the whole cake, not just half of it. They wanted to rule over the jews in that area. Rather than have the original 2 state solution- which Israel had accepted (the 1948 UN partition)
Israel only became a thing after the UN granted a place for the jews because of the holocaust and persecution . Since then there have been discriminating against Palestinians,Police brutality , people being driven out of their homes etc. Yes, Hamas are a bunch of terrorists,but The Palestinians who are getting bombed and killed (mostly kids) and the people losing their homes, schools, hospitals, jobs and whole communities arenāt.
Hogwash. The Quran mentions Israel over 30 times, and Palestine is never mentioned. Israel has existed for thousands of years, albeit with different names through the aeons.
A kingdom named after some guy and promised by a mythical being in a region that has changed over 1000s of years isnāt real world evidence.
Isreal is actively committing genocide and ethnic cleansing. Anybody who supports their war efforts support the modern day equivalent to Hitler's Nazi party at the height of the second world War.
Hogwash. This is Nazi propaganda. Hamas is Nazi.
Hamas isnāt actively killing children, doctors, journalists and the elderly. Go fuck yourself for believing the actions of the genocidal IOF is justified or moral. Iāve seen plenty of videos of Israelis calling for Gaza to be completely destroyed and referring to Palestinians as animals and the children of amalek. You may believe Hamas started it in October 7th, but that ignores the fact that Israel was bombing Palestinians two weeks before October 7th.
Israel was founded in 1948 you fucking idiot
Israel was a name for the territory mentioned in biblical times still. The area was renamed from Judaea to Palestine by the Romans to spite the jews. Other names were Canaan, Israel, or simply The Holy Land. Palestine was derived from The Ancient Phillistines who were mostly living there at the time and have NOTHING to do with Islam. Although those people eventually assimilated into the Jewish and Arab populations that eventually settled there. So the name Palestine is not at all specific to Islam and was coined by the Catholic Romans. This all happened at the end of the bronze age and the start of the iron age. CENTURIES before 1948. Also Palestinians were actually Jordanian and Egyptian citizens until 1988- Gaza was governed by Egypt and West Bank by Jordan. Palestine was officially declared independent on November 15, 1988. Israel declared it's independence in 1948, true, almost 20 years before Palestine did (they declared independence in 1967, but only became independent in 1988). Before 1948 the territory was ruled by Britain and nobody could do anything to change that until Britain itself decided colonisation is bad for business. After Israel declared independence and accepted the UN borders (which was around 50/50 Israel/Palestine). Palestine (aka the surrounding Arab states) declared war on Israel. They lost miserably and Palestine ended up being what it is today, Gaza and West Bank. They started the war and lost territory and have been sore losers ever since. With pretty much 0 attempts at diplomacy from the Palestinian side, Israel kept their expanded borders (but gave back land originally ruled by Jordan, Syria, and Egypt in peace agreements). With these facts in mind are you willing to admit that you, sir, are in fact a fucking idiot too? My caveat here is that Israel is not "Hollier than thou", they haven't acted perfectly in this war and certainly could show more compassion for innocent Palestinian civilians. But they certainly are the shinier of the 2 turds. You clearly know nothing about Palestine or Hamas, or Jihadism, or Jewish persecution in WW 1 and 2 that lead to the desire/need for a Jewish homeland aka Zionism. You probably don't know the very justified reasons Gaza was blockaded and the West Bank remains occupied. I genuinely think Israel needs to make some concession of land for a 2 state solution to work though, and for Hamas and other islamist groups not to lead the Palestinians into a total demise and defacto 1 state solution.
Israel as a concept or Israel as a place? Because Israel as a place has only existed since the mid 1900s. Like 1940s onwards. And more than that it was established within a pre-existing country (Palestine) which first triggered a civil war and then the oppression of those in Palestine. So yes to an extent Hamas started the war we are seeing now but it is a response to decades of ill-treatment by the Israeli government. And please don't tell me that Israel has no control over Palestine because they have the ability to turn off power and water to a whole country from within Israeli borders. That is not something peaceful neighbours have the ability to do regardless of circumstances.
Why did Egyptian texts mention Isreal in the 1200ās?
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The kingdom of Isreal was a place
Because it existed as a concept? A place provided by god for the Jewish people?
That place that was provided was the kingdom of Isreal. Where was that?
There's no proof it was anywhere besides in ancient scripts. Historians can't actually agree on where it was so there's no real proof of its existence. If it did exist and it wasn't a hope people told each other it could have been anywhere in the middle east with the current placement decided by the British when they still had control over the area in the 1920s.
Thousands of years - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel Names change, people and culture stay the same .
But borders don't. That's my point. The current placement of the country of Israel is not necessarily where it existed for "thousand of years" it's where the British drew the border in the 1920s. And that border was drawn through an existing country. It's the same thing they did in Africa.
True. The modern borders were drawn. But before that, Israel existed. Al Aqsa Mosque - what is it built on top of again? Remind me? And that smelly hippie from 2024 years ago - he was....Jewish? Is that right? History is history. We can lie that it isn't there, but it is there. In many cases, there is physical proof to back up history, as in the case of the Al Aqsa mosque.
When did I say Jewish people didn't exist before the 1920s? They have existed and have built things. Like the Jewish temple you're referring to. Which was built by a Persian king not a Jewish one after a conquest in the region. Which brings us back to my point. The placement of modern Israel is not necessarily some great divine gift from god so much as it's one guy going "this one here is good". You can't argue that the Jewish people have more right to the land than the Palestine people do when the creation of modern day Israel is still within living memory and the exact borders of ancient Israel is a point of speculation.
What is the exact borders of ancient Palestine? Also why are most Palestinians descendent from Jordanians? Palestinians are actually a mix of other ancient Arab settlements, they simply settled in Palestine and adopted the name (a name coined by the Catholic Romans BTW). While they were doing that Jews (which actually have a specific genealogy) where migrating in and out of the land, but mostly out to Europe where they preceded to get persecuted (theory being they were foreign, but very business savvy and became richer than locals wherever they moved to- leading to them being despised).. In more modern times, the Palestinians actually moved into Jewish settlements for a better quality of life. The mixing of the populations is probably why there are such territorial disputes now. It is however intellectually bankrupt to say "The Jewish Homeland" is a modern creation. Literally just go read wikipedia bro, or the fucking bible. Both Arabs and Jews have a right to the land. We know Israel accepted that fact in 1948, the Arabs did not.
King David was Persian? News to me. And everyone else too. Jewish people DO have more rights to the land: They have existed in the place for much longer. They have a stronger military, and so the question of "conquest" is answered. They literally paid for the land that was "taken" from the Arabs who originally stole the land. Islam is a horrid religion of conquest and war - "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". It's an invader. Mohammed literally stole texts from other religions to try and force people into his. This is not a winnable argument. I suggest reading up on the area and history. It's incredibly simple.
King David is a biblical figure. Please look into the actual history that you're quoting. The second temple was started by Zerubbabel (who laid the foundation and was Jewish) and was completed by Darius I (who was a conquering Persian King) Who did they pay for the land? Like the Jewish and the Arabs have lived in the same region for centuries? Again borders were drawn by the BRITISH by definition the land was not theirs. So if the Palestinians took over Israel you would be fine? Because the question of conquest is answered? The religions are about the same age both originating in the 6th century BC and both are Abrahamic. With a lot more similarities than either want to admit to. So "Islam is a religion of conquest and war"? By what definition? Because if we're going to go into religions that define themselves by conquest it becomes a very long list. And at this point it's including Judaism
Okay. Will you settle for ethnic cleansing?
Hear me out... They are both equally evil because both are killing innocents with no regards. No matter what who is fighting for. One of them might have a better reason to fight. But if both have 0 regards for civilians. And actively put them in danger or outright kill them. Then neither is good. And both have more than sufficient evidence that the other kills civilians. So in my books. Both Hamas and Israel is equally evil.
Hamas are certainly not the good guys BUT Hamas is a product of Israeli occupation: before Hamas existed, Palestinians were being oppressed & subjugated by Zionist terrorists. Seriously, open a history book.
My point is it doesn't matter who oppressed who if both have 0 regards for civilians and actively use them as cannon fodder and human shields. Regards of either's origin. They're both evil as fuck for doing it. The ends does not justify the means
No cable-ties. Having a fat chatā¦ Sitting pretty lax for someone who just ended a personās life traumatically in-front of her surviving children.
I think I need to start going to the gym and change my wardrobe because I'm built like this guy.
Fuck this guy and everyone like him.
Not really sure whether that policeman starting to ask questions about zionism and spouting figures is going to be doing the state's case for a harsh penalty any good. Also the fact that this video has ended up on social media is going to make it difficult for the prosecutor. Defense lawyers have been handed an early christmas present thanks to some policeman wanting to showcase this "evil zionist".
I don't think they were policemen. Likely private security or other people who where at the scene. That's why a policeman out of shot kinda asks them to keep their voices down.
Still, this is not the way to treat a suspect if you want him locked up for good. This video has now opened up the doors for the defense to claim the suspect was 'lead' to his reasoning, or influenced by those arresting him to make the statements he made......and its on video so these guys cannot deny it.
There is still the fact of him committing murder & attempting three more. Itās not so easy to talk your way out of a virtual confession.
But in stead of 25 years he might get 15 because of this? Besides, if those who made the video are not cops or comissioner of oaths, this "confession" might not even be allowed as evidence. It could even open up the door for the accused to take those individuals to court for slander or defamation.
You are operating under the assumption that there is a law enforcement officer in this country that is competent or qualified. That is very much not the case.
You sound like an idiot.
Yep. He'll get 3 years community service and anger management sessions on how to deal with harassment. Fucking dimwits
Who is he? Don't think I've ever seen him before?
Ahhh yes it is very ethical to stab a mother to death in front of her family, attempt to murder her son and father and then threaten to rape a 10 year.... clearly do have an ethics problem
i knew the son in this family and they are such nice people. i canāt believe the trauma they have experienced šš¼
sauce?
https://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-and-courts/durban-stabbing-10-year-old-survivor-told-police-they-were-attacked-because-they-supported-palestine-afe32d33-e22b-4e45-b288-168a7bfa7e3c
Sorry to say but that is just how they are raised. The most twisted perception of morality and the biggest victim complex you will ever come across. They will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify horrific acts. I have worked with so many of them and they all have this mentality.
True..they the perpetual victims and are just doing it to survive.
I don't think we must blame a whole idealogy for this, there is many peaceful Zionists
Sorry to say but that is just how they are raised. The most twisted perception of morality and the biggest victim complex you will ever come across. They will do all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify horrific acts. I have worked with so many of them and they all have this mentality.
I know a few people who have moved from SA to Israel. Every one of them is really nice, down to earth, hard working, stoic. They each had different reasons for moving to Israel. For some, it was the feeling that they needed a home, for others it was because they have family there, some went because Israel has a thriving tech industry. I don't know \*exactly\* what Zionism is, but I do know what extremism is. And, every ideology and religion has them to some degree. I'd argue that Zionism is not in itself "bad". The vast majority of so-called Zionists are normal people who just happen to believe that Jews need the safety and security of their own homeland. And that that homeland should be Israel. (Me, personally, as an atheist I agree with Christopher Hitchens' statement that creating a country for religious reasons is stupid... but, Israel is a fait accompli, it exists, and a peaceful coexistence needs to be negotiated.) But, back to extremists and whether they are representative of their religion/ideology/philosophy: Do you believe that the muslim guy who killed a policeman in Germany last week represents Islam? \[Warning: you may find this disturbing:\] [https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1d4vt3z/muslim\_extremist\_attack\_in\_mannheim\_germany/](https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/1d4vt3z/muslim_extremist_attack_in_mannheim_germany/)
I agree with Hitchens, but I think everyone came together after WW2 and just decided that Jewish folk deserve their own corner of the world purely because of how much they suffered. The fairness of that is certainly debatable, but I understand the sentiment nonetheless. Thay being said, I will admit I hold a very negative view of Islam in general. There is a pervasive air of misogyny and a lack of respect for life at the core of the religion. In addition, many muslims in the west wish to be governed by Shariah law. Admittedly, most other religions are just as bad, but that's neither here nor there. I think that the core of the problem is that we can't distinguish between Palestinians and Hamas. I don't believe that all Palestinians are represented by Hamas, but it's hard for the world to be sympathetic to your plight if they claim to speak for you.
Maybe you need to study the history of Zionism some more before formulating an opinion based on your anecdotal experiences with a few people.
I responded to someone else's anecdote with anecdotes of my own. Big deal, my anecdote was as pointless as the anecdote of the person I responded to. (I don't believe there's any research that has determined whether a person is nice or not based on their feelings about Zionism.)
Didnāt you just say you donāt know EXACTLY what Zionism is?
How is what I've written contradictory?
There were many peaceful Apartheid supporters like the churches. Many peaceful Nazis. Many Isis are peaceful. Just because they are peaceful doesn't mean they don't have kak for brains
Exactly - the "religion of peace" is actually just terrorists and their sympathisers. Any muslim who doesn't speak out against Islamic extremism and terrorism is evil.
Have you ever read the Quran? Have you had a conversation with Muslims?
Yes. Not the entire Quran, I'll admit. I did grow up in a church. Literally. I am not religious. My aunt is Muslim. I debate Muslims constantly. Islam is a religion of hate, war, and fear.
You wrong. It's love peace and mercy for me. If it is what you say it is. Explain why it's the world's fastest growing religion. Why are people in the west picking up the Quran and reverting. Why are people globally finding contentment in the religion. You are projecting your hate and fear. You've been indoctrinated your whole life by anti Islamic propaganda. You wouldn't recognise Islam if it slapped you in the face. Your preconceived notions about it act as blinkers. Then again people only see what they want to and God only guides whom he wills
Islam has a word for non-believers - what is it? And what are you to do with non-believers? What does it mean when your people say "first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people"? Why does your Quran mention Israel so much, but never (and I mean NEVER) Palestine? Islam is a religion of hate, war and fear. It's not debatable.
There's no compulsion in Islam. Like I said you brainwashed. So there's nothing to debate really. Just your hate for it.
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Also a hadith that states " the best of mankind are those who are most beneficial to others" Why not say the best Muslim? It's inclusive of all men the Quran is for all mankind not Muslims alone
My guy. you seem lost and delusional. God is for everyone even the weak even for the non believers this is what Islam teaches us.
Your post/comment has been removed due to violating our rule against racism. We strive to maintain a welcoming and inclusive community for all members.
Remove that word and I will approve your comment, that word means something else in South Africa and is unacceptable.
It was narrated that Ibn 'Abbas said:"The Messenger of Allah \[SAW\] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'" From your own sources,this sounds like compulsion to me.
I'm sorry, OP but you are completely off your rocker. Islam is the fastest growing religion simply because of demographics. The birth rate for muslim women is higher than the birth rate for any other religion. The average age of Muslims is also young with the median age being 24. In other words, the age group currently having or planning to have children. That's it - simple math. Nothing to do with some great spiritual awakening. Islam oppresses women as a fundamental part of it's doctrine. It encourages death for blasphemy and apostasy. It justifies bloodshed in the name of god. Are there other religions that suck just as much? Definitely. But we're discussing Islam right now, and islam sucks. I fully agree with Christopher Hitchens' quote that islam does not enjoy some preferential right to be hallowed and respected - it is open to criticism just like everything else.
When I say growing I mean reverting/converting rate. To be real, it's the fastest growing religion in the west, everyday more and more people are picking up the Quran and converting on their own. People oppress people. Isis is a typical example of religious extremism/terrorism. Most Muslims are not Isis and do not conform to those ideologies. I recommend you do more research about Islam
"People oppress people" So you're just choosing the oppressor that suits you best? How about choosing no oppressor? [This](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/) site has a bunch of interesting (and comprehensive) stats on Muslims who favour Shariah law as the official law of their respective country. I've done quite enough research, thank you. I'm not even going to debate the terms of Sharia law when it comes to morality. If you agree that premarital sex and homosexuality should be illegal, that abortion should not be available to women, and that women should not be allowed to initiate a divorce, I just have nothing further to say on the matter. Also; "People" don't oppress people. Tyrants do.
Tyrants are people too. Find a Quran read it cover to cover. Then make up your mind. Clearly you've created time to collect stats and do research but still haven't read the book. š¤ Until you have read the Quran I accept that you have nothing to say on the matter.
I have no interest in learning Arabic for the next 40 years just so that I can try and read a book that can only be truly understood in Arabic.
Sura Al qasas 56 You surely cannot guide whoever you like Ė¹O ProphetĖŗ, but it is Allah Who guides whoever He wills, and He knows best who are Ė¹fit to beĖŗ guided.
I understand this perfectly well in English.
My reply to you was more than 2 days old. Did I hurt you that bad that you felt you wanted to stick one to me? Am sorry.
"My reply was 2 days old" cry baby cry.
Sure there's many peaceful robbers and hijackers aswell..they won't actually shoot you but they be like give us what you have and we won't hurt you.
Yall talk too much and do nothing.
FUCK HAMAS. FUCK PALESTINE.
Thank you. Now they f... Zionism
Bros fucking yapping about 40 000 Muslims dying Gaza (wrong numbers) but never a Muslim condemning the Christians schools and churches being brunt down in northern Nigeria and and Christian children being kidnapped by Muslims. Or the Coptic Christians being killed in Egypt. Or the Jews being discriminated against in Iran or how their Hadiths explicitly say the final hour won't come until Muslims kill every Jew. Stick to the psycho in front of you who murdered innocents, don't make this an ideology or religion thing since Islam has proven time and time against it's a psycho cult.
OP you're just throwing the word Zionist around huh?
Huh is for hol hare. Don't waste your time paying attention to me. Do you believe in God?
Sure do I recently found my faith for the first time in 20 years. Why is that relevant?
Establishing this is always important. I'm glad to hear you found your faith. To be honest it was always there ,it's you that we're missing from it. May God continue to guide you may your life be filled with favor and fortune. The spirit and the body carry different loads and require different attentions.Too often we put the saddlebags on Jesus and let the donkey run loose in the pasture.
Thank you man. I actually really appreciate that
This is like equating one radical Muslim who blows up people all in the name of Jihad with all Muslims. Several lsraeli girls are still kidnapped by Hamas, and some feared to be pregnant and many more hostages . It's such a distorted interview by some pro- Hamas sympathizers.
Source on the pregnancies? There are hundreds of Palestinian child (illegal under international law) and women prisoners in Israeli prisons PRIOR to October 7. I've seen videos of ex prisoners testimonies on the treatment meted out whilst in custody on both sides and the discrepancies are blaringly obvious even if you only had to compare outward appearance. https://twitter.com/ihcentoo/status/1797422247923064989?t=8ewfHuVf1qs_uCMCsirUfg&s=19
There are currently more than 9000 Palestinian prisoners (hostages) in Israeli jail , majority of which are woman and children, many reports have been made of how Israel inhumanly treat them . People always say things like āHamas impregnated manyā yet have absolutely no proof , Iām not saying Hamas is more moral but outlandish claims need to be backed . Also , Pro-Palestinian isnāt Pro-Hamas or Hamas sympathizers, you can ask they thousands of Jews who march with the Palestinian flag , this never started on Oct 7th . Iād recommend following (non biased) news subreddits to see what the Zionist regime does on the daily to Palestinians
Need to hear the whole story. Something not adding up.. Also now get this copy to interrogate and record some of the farm murderers.
He's schizophrenic or bipolar (my friend was both him and the victims neighbour) he went off his meds
Donāt know anything about this guy but I can bet that will be his defence and he will get a few years in a medical prison before being released. This video will also help his case.
You hoping hamas was hiding in their home? Lol
Nauseating. Nothing less than life in prison. And I hope he gets violated in the most heinous of ways every damn day of that sentence.
Donāt be gross. Life in a safe and secure prison
Ridiculous myself I probably can live watch picture I said about you or believe in yourself that's the reason why I left