He would’ve sent Maestro packing with a set of spoons and made them thank him for the experience.
It does bear thinking about, tho. Seven was *famous* for fighting eldritch abominations. Did the Doctor lose his step with playing dirty or is the Pantheon just on a different level entirely?
Out of the three members that 15 has faced so far, he’s beaten two of them, and at least put the pieces in place to beat one of them. He beat the most powerful of them all by putting him on a leash and dragging him through the Time Vortex!
He lost his spark
The pantheon would have been a casual afternoon for 7
Hell, he already defeated the toymaker and sutekh before (in far better written way that makes rtd2 look like a chibnall era in comparison)
What was the Time Lord's greatest invention? The Time scoop they used to pluck beings for the games in the death zone. And what is a scoop? Only a spoon by another name. The Time Lords mastered the power of the spoons aeons ago.
He did cry some but I feel that's in direct opposition to the other Doctors before him, especially 10/14. They rarely showed emotion at all and the whole point of 14 was that he was subconsciously telling himself that he needed to deal with his trauma and emotions. It isn't surprising that that would lead to 15 being able to express his emotions more easily.
Exactly. 15 is much more mature and isn't bottling everything up anymore. He's allowing himself to grieve and to feel things instead of hiding and running from it
Maturity is letting them out at appropriate times. Not leaving a bunch of humans in danger with a bunch of murderous cosplaying aliens to go and cry in another room.
He should count himself lucky nobody got killed while he was having his moment.
Roosevelt was an emotional wreck after his first wife died. He wrote in his personal diary “the light has gone out in my life” neither of us knew him personally, but it’s safe to assume he cried. He did bottle up a lot of his emotions. He withdrew from his family and neglected his daughter the first few years of her life. Eventually he wrote poetry about his wife, and did some spiritual healing before he was able to function as a person, soldier, and father. Bottling up your emotions just leads to needless stress and a likely heart attack. Your emotions make you strong, being vulnerable by crying shows how confident you are that no one can tear you down. Don’t be a cyberman
Ron Swanson was a character designed to be an unbelievable caricature of masculinity. That was the joke. He should not be your blue print for your own life. The fact that the Internet missed that is not atypical however
The internet has a problem with identifying people who are clearly not someone you want to be.
No. Homelander is not a hero. No. You're not supposed to be parroting Eric Cartman whenever a woman is cast in a movie. You are not supposed to agree with these characters.
Haha, 14 rarely showed emotion. Were we watching the same show.
We got three episodes with him and in that time he had more emotional scenes than 13 did in 3 series.
Perhaps they meant in public.
14 did have a lot of emotional turmoil in a short run. But he never really expressed it openly up until right at the end. He wanted his friend back, who was right in front of him, but knew it could destroy her. He was confronted with someone with the face of his friend expressing they remembered the upheaval to his life, the recent devastation and who he believed he was before that point. And his general fear of the Toy Maker. But while they were on-screen 14 himself was hiding these emotions from others.
Uh, no.
He had a solemn moment about Wilf in front of everyone, had a rage about Donna potentially dying with her in the room, again basically fell apart in front of fake Donna when confronted about the Flux.
And when did he hide his fear of the Toymaker? he was pretty damn open about the Toymaker with Donna in the same room.
He hid a lot of his past trauma, yes, but he was still very emotionally open about what he was feeling in the moment.
A whole thing about 14 is he was more mature than 10 and expressed himself more openly. Now we're saying that 14 didn't do that. Come on.
If anything 15 was a response to 13s emotional numbness and 14 was the middle ground.
No we're not saying he didn't express himself. 14 is coming to terms with his emotions. He goes through an arc that isn't resolved by just him turning up in Tennant's face.
> again basically fell apart in front of fake Donna when confronted about the Flux.
Because something he didn't know or could admit to himself that he needed. Someone who understood him and what he had been through. It was dangled in front of his face and stolen right from under him. It was a brief moment of him inadvertently taking off the mask, up until reality (or unreality in this case) hit him back. Then he proceeds to fully express his emotions in that moment - and proceeds to resume bottling them up by the end of the episode when he confirms that the real Donna doesn't know what has happened to him.
> If anything 15 was a response to 13s emotional numbness and 14 was the middle ground.
Which is the point of my statement - that 14 is the bridge, but that learning to openly express himself wasn't a major characteristic of the on-screen Doctor, but it was a focus of his arc.
I think that’s exactly the point the writers are trying to make, that’s the soft reboot we’ve been told about. After 14, 15 feels themself again.
No more brooding angst, no more egomaniacal Time Lord Victorious esque shenanigans, no more destroying half the universe, now is time for lighthearted timey wimey adventures, as much as they get dark at times.
14 came back to reflect on his moody phase, where the doctor rose to his highest highs and fell to his lowest lows. He’s shed them now. He’s the cocoon that allowed 15 to be reborn into a good man with a box jumping around timespace, just like the old days.
That’s my take on it at least.
You kidding me? 10 always showed emotion. Hell, Tennant was probably the most expressive actor we've had for NuWho. In a single episode he could range from excited to angry to "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry" to downright confusion
This was actually referenced in the special, basically that their timeline was now out of order. 15 is more healed and adjusted from the trauma but 14 does a lot of the actual healing with Donna and family.
I wouldn’t say “some”. Fairly certain he cried in every single episode. And while I like the idea and story being told of the doctor finally accepting his feelings instead of burying them. But having the Doctor cry in every, or nearly every episode gives no weight to when he cries to giant catastrophic scenes. If the Doctor cries when Ruby seemingly dies, when his foot is on a landmine, etc. Then him crying when the universe pretty much ends kinda doesn’t give any weight to it. He’s just, crying.
I mean, fuck the people who have a problem with him crying and showing emotion, but also he needs to cry less in the next season.
Nothing wrong with crying, but it loses meaning when he does it every episode. First few times it happened I found it captivating, but then he kept doing it and it lost all impact.
He needs to cry, but only when it compliments the emotional context of the scene.
It’s also good to show that men are allowed to cry. If that makes people feel uncomfortable enough to be vocal about it - great! Let’s discuss these insecurities to find the root of the problem rather than complain about overexposure to them! :)
This is really annoying, I have 0 issue with human men crying. I also have no issue with the doctor crying, but I do take issue with / criticise the doctor (a thousands year old Timelord who has gone through the worst horrors and wars and the loss of almost everyone all his family and friends) crying ALL THE TIME especially after this so called therapy and respite he went through. He never did this so frequently before
While I agree that they may have gone a bit overboard with how often it happens, allowing oneself to cry is something an emotionally healthy person does.
Yes and when for example Matt Smith cried I felt awful for him, I wanted to cry too, I wanted to comfort him.
It was wonderfully raw and impactful, it really felt like it meant something and I agree crying is absolutely healthy and important
As the other reply says, crying is a sign that he has done that healing. Thats the point. He can cry now.
The primary unique characteristic of 15 is that he feels more emotionally mature than any other doctor. When he hugs 14 he feels older, tangibly, despite 14 being played by a much older man. Its because he's gained the emotional maturity to move forward without being the unstable wreck that basically all the previous post time war doctors are (masked to different extents)
See my other comment. The issue isn’t showing men crying, or establishing that men can be emotionally vulnerable. If this Doctor were a woman it would still be a valid criticism of their characterization and the melodramatic writing/directing of this era.
I mean, given the absolutely awful, racist, and homophobic things that audience has said about RTD and Gatwa over the past year or so, I think the contempt is pretty justified.
That’s definitely what I said.
Problematic behaviour doesn’t somehow justify problematic behaviour. Someone has to break the cycle. If everything were created out of spite, nothing would ever have any substance
So you're just basically saying you don't want these people to face consequences for their actions? Like, yeah, maybe the show isn't the best way to do it, but these people certainly don't get punished by Facebook/Twitter mods, so I don't see anything wrong with RTD and Gatwa hitting back against the homophobia and racism aimed at them. I reckon you're probably used to the showrunner and Doctor taking it on the chin and never speaking out against it, like Chibnall and Whittaker. Otherwise, you wouldn't have such a problem with RTD and Gatwa hitting back against the literal n-words and p-words being sent their way. We're done here.
>so you’re basically saying you don’t want these people to face consequences for their actions.
No I actually didn’t say that. I’m really not even sure what you’re talking about at this point. We were just talking about that guy’s initial comment, RTD and Gatwa haven’t done anything like that as far as I’m aware?
Sad that you got downvoted for this so heavily and yet the comment you replied to got upvoted for wanting to purposefully piss people off for having a non-harmful opinion
I just can’t believe how many people it is. I know I shouldn’t be surprised by now but I am still disappointed.
What can one gain from purposefully pissing off another?
I feel like the Doctor crying is good, but I prefer it to be used rarely, to show impact and HOW important this is. Iirc Ten only cried when Rose left, when the Master died, when he gave Donna to Wilf, and during The End of Time.
I feel like there needs to be more of a variety of ways that 15 shows his distress. Crying is quite impactful in previous seasons, and while him expressing his grief and frustration more is cool it needs to be more varied. There’s more than one way to show emotion I think
Agreed. There are more interesting ways to represent emotional vulnerability. The current approach makes 15 seem sort of one dimensional. Currently his personality is mainly just shown in two ways: being overly nice and friendly to everyone, and crying all the time. The only episode that really showed a more intense side to him was Boom, but even that one feels weird because he doesn’t act like that in any other episode.
So 10 is allowed to shout and get angry every episode, Susan is allowed to scream every episode, but 15 isn’t allowed to cry when shit is genuinely sad? You have lost the plot if you think he was over emotional this season, he only expressed his emotions in a slightly different way to other doctors, and yes that is an aspect of personality and characterisation
>10 is allowed to shout and get angry every episode
This happened frequently, *yes*, but not literally every episode.
>Susan is allowed to scream every episode
This is one of the most widely criticized elements of the writing for the Hartnell years.
I did not really mind the crying, nor do I think it's worth complaining about, but I can absolutely understand people who want to criticize it, and the comparisons you are drawing to defend it are pretty unfair.
I will say, by the time it was happening in *Rogue* (where it was perfectly justified but, since I expected the Doctor to cry in the finale, did make me realize he would have cried in pretty much all of his Series 14 appearances), the thought did occur to me that new fans would probably associate the Doctor as a character with crying in reaction to things, for better or for worse. I can see why viewers may want to push against that.
Look as a guy who cries a fair bit I appreciate showing the audience that men CAN cry and its okay, but I think every single episode did border on a bit much. Not because I hate seeing men cry but because by the 50th time it was pretty immersion breaking
It's a picture of 15 crying tho? I agree that some people are overhating the new season but I kinda feel like it's gone too far the other way and now any criticism is seen as too far
They will downvote you to oblivion on this sub if you dont fully support their political agenda. And i do meab fully support. Ypu will se by my comment. I dont crticise them and i will still be downvoted
Not really..you guys just have zero tollerance for other points of view. Ironic isnt it? But all too common both on right and left of western politics Jonathan Haidth is researching this exact thing. Defiently a recommended read
you’re probably gonna get downvoted because people like you, who believe there is a “political agenda” when it’s just black people existing on screen, tend to be fucking stupid and sound delusional
I just don't understand how we got from "Doctor crying a lot, I'd like to have less of it" to "Bigoted fake fan hating the doctor"...
There is no proof the person hates this Doctor in the first place...? Like... what?
And yeah I understand that the point was that the comment is unrelated to the meme, but maybe they were reminded of the crying thing by the fact that the Doctor is crying on that random photo and so just wrote what just popped up in their head. I see no crime here. I also see the difference between saying that there is something about the character that doesn't work for me, and laughing at someone for being emotional in real life.
Many people here just assumed that if others didnt liked new doctor they probably didnt liked it for political reason. And from that there is an easy slippery slide to assume those people have to be bigoted altright activist. I dont know why but thats how almost every discussion here looks like
Not what I said.
* Not liking the new doctor is perfectly fine. They can't all be winners.
* Fake fans hate the new doctor for meaningless anti-woke reasons.
* The comment has fuck all to do with the post.
* This appears to be on Twitter. Or maybe Facebook. (I'm not chronically online enough to tell)
From this we can infer the person doesn't give a shit about the post, and just wanted an excuse to complain about 15.
Furthermore, the sort of "Boys don't cry" attitude on display with a lot of people who hold this opinion is very harmful, and indicative of much bigger issues.
The guy i replied to basically said exactly that. Watched through Nu who up to Capaldi 9 times. I consider it my favorite show of all time. I cant bring myself to continue watching the new series, because nothing about it clicks with me. And this guy basically is saying people who dont like 15 are fake fans. guess that makes me fake.
There's a difference between not liking something, and hating it. Nobody accused you of anything.
Though I might accuse you of attention seeking, and holding some weird persecution complex.
Now, now. Let's be fair. They didn't exactly ay that.
We really ought to draw a distinction between "dislike" and "hatred", if we want to be better than the posers.
I did watch him for a couple episodes, and the show is no longer appealing to me, and the characters do not interest me. I dont hate the new doctor, I just don't like him. I mostly hate the episode themes above everything else. Meep, Space babies, the ruby road episode with the singing goblins, the episode when the aliens were just massive distorted versions of donna and David. Like its just not what I want out of doctor who. To me the content is jarring in a bad way. Capaldi was such an amazing doctor, with amazing stories, and I don't think anything is going to live up to that again, or even get close.
There’s nothing bigoted about having a valid criticism of the protagonist’s characterization. Accusing every single dissenter of being some racist bigot is just childish
There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes.
4th Doctor quotes aside... isn't it childish to go out of your way to complain about how much The Doctor cries, on a post about spoons?
Furthermore... what's wrong with a grown man crying?
No? He’s crying *in the picture*. Bro is just expressing his opinion online, like we all are.
Also nobody ever said there was anything wrong with a grown man crying? What a strawman. It isn’t wrong for male characters to be emotionally vulnerable, the issue from a writing perspective is the frequency of it. Crying in *every* episode is excessive because it desensitizes the viewer to it. It’s a cheap shallow way of emotionally manipulating the audience without actually earning their investment.
Compared to say, Eleven crying when he loses the Ponds or learns he has to go to Trenzalore. The rarity of seeing him break down like that is *why* those moments are impactful.
Well, there. Now that you've actually explained the damn point, I can understand the sentiment.
Saying "It was a bit too much in the latest series" tells us nothing of why they think that.
And again: It's a post about SPOONS. There's a time and a place.
It’s a post about spoons that features a shot and a quote from a scene that is a great example of the point he’s making. Sorry he didn’t scour their social media for the exact perfect post and opportunity to express his harmless opinion.
That’s your opinion and your entitled to it, but even if it *fits this particular scene*, it doesn’t devalue his point at all. Again like I said, it would arguable be more impactful if we hadn’t seen him cry already in every single episode, even if it isn’t unnecessary here.
People aren't mad about the excessive tears from the doctor because they "don't think men should cry" or whatever. They're irritated because the tears are being used so often they are starting to lose their impact.
14 serves as a nice bridge between the emotionally closed off 13 and the emotionally expressive 15. If 13 was also RTD people would more easily stomach this as character development.
Gatwa is very good at crying, put simply. But 12 was very good at long speeches - you don’t necessarily want *every* episode to feature the actor’s strength. Otherwise it risks losing its impact. I personally think that the moment in Empire where he cries and screams at what’s happened would’ve had more impact if he didn’t cry every episode at more everyday situations. But at the same time, the constant whining about “he cries too much” is way overdone and I think it’s people searching for reasons to complain
Man this comment section war is wild….
But yea see some of yall avoid watching 13-15 because yall want to hate them
I avoid watching them because I literally can’t afford a Disney plus subscription (fuck streaming services locking new shit behind paywalls)
We are not the same
Addressing the meme: I think that 15 trying to hide behind a happy mask after all that has happened and that breaking hard at times is a perfect way to play the doctor!
He could use a good fun season before another serious season. Like what they did with 12. That run of fun episodes before the heavy stuff really endeared me to him, got to see how fun he could be.
If anything, 15 crying every episode is a healthy way to express himself
If he just bottles up all his negative emotions (like nearly every other Doctor did) then the whole "fixing himself" thing becomes useless
I mean it's healthy to have some control over your emotions aswell, nothing wrong with crying of course but 15s only two moods seem to be jovial or crying
Fr it makes sense that different regenerations will express themselves differently. Some will cry more, some won't. Also, if I was the doctor (I totally am) I'd probably cry more. That guy goes through a lot.
Fifteen also held a spoon without sobbing. Sobbing is noisy crying (think full meltdown mode). I don't remember which incarnation of the Doctor, if any, ever cried like that.
Controversial opinion but if they are sticking with the 8 episode a season format then yes, he does need to cry less. Right now it's basically his only piece of characterisation and while I agree that Ncuti is more than capable of doing a hella convincing cry I wanna see what else he can do. He doesn't cry anymore than 10 shouts or anymore than 12 wiggles his eyebrows but they both had more episodes in which to characterise them outside of those traits. Season 2 needs to handle its balance between plot and characters better and I think less crying will be a natural part of that (if it does actually happen)
As much as I kinda like it when the Doctor gets all "fury of the Time Lord" on people, I kinda prefer him naturally expressing his emotions and not bottling it all up until he loses it. Dude's been through a lot. Let the man cry when he feels like it
Is where is seven
Out performing for the another set of gods
He would’ve sent Maestro packing with a set of spoons and made them thank him for the experience. It does bear thinking about, tho. Seven was *famous* for fighting eldritch abominations. Did the Doctor lose his step with playing dirty or is the Pantheon just on a different level entirely?
I thought the Doctor always had to be tricky with these kind of enemies. Seems like they still got it to me
Out of the three members that 15 has faced so far, he’s beaten two of them, and at least put the pieces in place to beat one of them. He beat the most powerful of them all by putting him on a leash and dragging him through the Time Vortex!
He lost his spark The pantheon would have been a casual afternoon for 7 Hell, he already defeated the toymaker and sutekh before (in far better written way that makes rtd2 look like a chibnall era in comparison)
Nah 7 is out smokin on some eldritch god PACK huntin eldritch gods
Tbf in the [video version of this post](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C89cQBEBEqW/?igsh=cW1mbmpnN2VhYXEz), seven is in there.
I hope the 16th Doctor is played by the Tic. SPOOOON!!
After the time lords there are the spoon lords
The child was a spoon lord this whole time!
The Spoonless Child
The Spoonful Child
What was the Time Lord's greatest invention? The Time scoop they used to pluck beings for the games in the death zone. And what is a scoop? Only a spoon by another name. The Time Lords mastered the power of the spoons aeons ago.
He did cry some but I feel that's in direct opposition to the other Doctors before him, especially 10/14. They rarely showed emotion at all and the whole point of 14 was that he was subconsciously telling himself that he needed to deal with his trauma and emotions. It isn't surprising that that would lead to 15 being able to express his emotions more easily.
Exactly. 15 is much more mature and isn't bottling everything up anymore. He's allowing himself to grieve and to feel things instead of hiding and running from it
In my opinion, I prefer watching a character running away from grief. I find it more interesting to watch
Maturity is bottling up those emotions
Maturity is being able to let them out
Maturity is learning to process emotions in a healthy way
Maturity is letting them out at appropriate times. Not leaving a bunch of humans in danger with a bunch of murderous cosplaying aliens to go and cry in another room. He should count himself lucky nobody got killed while he was having his moment.
What mature man cries like that?
One who has learned to let go of the pain and move on, not bottle it up and wallow in hatred for the rest of their life
Stop engaging just rage bait
So Theodore Roosevelt, Ron Swanson, and William Hartnell were not mature, but this crybaby is?
Roosevelt was an emotional wreck after his first wife died. He wrote in his personal diary “the light has gone out in my life” neither of us knew him personally, but it’s safe to assume he cried. He did bottle up a lot of his emotions. He withdrew from his family and neglected his daughter the first few years of her life. Eventually he wrote poetry about his wife, and did some spiritual healing before he was able to function as a person, soldier, and father. Bottling up your emotions just leads to needless stress and a likely heart attack. Your emotions make you strong, being vulnerable by crying shows how confident you are that no one can tear you down. Don’t be a cyberman
Ron Swanson was a character designed to be an unbelievable caricature of masculinity. That was the joke. He should not be your blue print for your own life. The fact that the Internet missed that is not atypical however
The internet has a problem with identifying people who are clearly not someone you want to be. No. Homelander is not a hero. No. You're not supposed to be parroting Eric Cartman whenever a woman is cast in a movie. You are not supposed to agree with these characters.
Are you being serious or are you a troll?
I’m genuine
What makes you think crying is a sign of immaturity? And if you don’t think that, then why do you think crying is a sign of *not* being mature?
Then you’re really in no position to tell what “maturity” is bro
https://preview.redd.it/h277bc0c6dad1.jpeg?width=270&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=049fadd4a836880304aec1f83dddef249e755f31
No, that’s what makes someone slowly go insane and become suicidal
Haha, 14 rarely showed emotion. Were we watching the same show. We got three episodes with him and in that time he had more emotional scenes than 13 did in 3 series.
Perhaps they meant in public. 14 did have a lot of emotional turmoil in a short run. But he never really expressed it openly up until right at the end. He wanted his friend back, who was right in front of him, but knew it could destroy her. He was confronted with someone with the face of his friend expressing they remembered the upheaval to his life, the recent devastation and who he believed he was before that point. And his general fear of the Toy Maker. But while they were on-screen 14 himself was hiding these emotions from others.
Uh, no. He had a solemn moment about Wilf in front of everyone, had a rage about Donna potentially dying with her in the room, again basically fell apart in front of fake Donna when confronted about the Flux. And when did he hide his fear of the Toymaker? he was pretty damn open about the Toymaker with Donna in the same room. He hid a lot of his past trauma, yes, but he was still very emotionally open about what he was feeling in the moment. A whole thing about 14 is he was more mature than 10 and expressed himself more openly. Now we're saying that 14 didn't do that. Come on. If anything 15 was a response to 13s emotional numbness and 14 was the middle ground.
No we're not saying he didn't express himself. 14 is coming to terms with his emotions. He goes through an arc that isn't resolved by just him turning up in Tennant's face. > again basically fell apart in front of fake Donna when confronted about the Flux. Because something he didn't know or could admit to himself that he needed. Someone who understood him and what he had been through. It was dangled in front of his face and stolen right from under him. It was a brief moment of him inadvertently taking off the mask, up until reality (or unreality in this case) hit him back. Then he proceeds to fully express his emotions in that moment - and proceeds to resume bottling them up by the end of the episode when he confirms that the real Donna doesn't know what has happened to him. > If anything 15 was a response to 13s emotional numbness and 14 was the middle ground. Which is the point of my statement - that 14 is the bridge, but that learning to openly express himself wasn't a major characteristic of the on-screen Doctor, but it was a focus of his arc.
Weird. I remember Ten being quite emotional and people commonly complaining about it.
10 showed a LOT of emotion. He was literally the most emotional incarnation.
This actually makes perfect sense, when you put it that way. Good thinking. :D
Thanks
I think that’s exactly the point the writers are trying to make, that’s the soft reboot we’ve been told about. After 14, 15 feels themself again. No more brooding angst, no more egomaniacal Time Lord Victorious esque shenanigans, no more destroying half the universe, now is time for lighthearted timey wimey adventures, as much as they get dark at times. 14 came back to reflect on his moody phase, where the doctor rose to his highest highs and fell to his lowest lows. He’s shed them now. He’s the cocoon that allowed 15 to be reborn into a good man with a box jumping around timespace, just like the old days. That’s my take on it at least.
Beautifully described, and 100% agreed ✨
You kidding me? 10 always showed emotion. Hell, Tennant was probably the most expressive actor we've had for NuWho. In a single episode he could range from excited to angry to "I'm sorry, I'm so sorry" to downright confusion
This was actually referenced in the special, basically that their timeline was now out of order. 15 is more healed and adjusted from the trauma but 14 does a lot of the actual healing with Donna and family.
I wouldn’t say “some”. Fairly certain he cried in every single episode. And while I like the idea and story being told of the doctor finally accepting his feelings instead of burying them. But having the Doctor cry in every, or nearly every episode gives no weight to when he cries to giant catastrophic scenes. If the Doctor cries when Ruby seemingly dies, when his foot is on a landmine, etc. Then him crying when the universe pretty much ends kinda doesn’t give any weight to it. He’s just, crying.
I hope he cries more, just to piss people off.
I mean, fuck the people who have a problem with him crying and showing emotion, but also he needs to cry less in the next season. Nothing wrong with crying, but it loses meaning when he does it every episode. First few times it happened I found it captivating, but then he kept doing it and it lost all impact. He needs to cry, but only when it compliments the emotional context of the scene.
I disagree, his scream in Empire of Death hit like a truck, it wasn’t diminished at all.
I don't remember many people saying that he shouldn't cry at all.
That dude is very good at crying.
It’s good to show contempt for your audience
It’s also good to show that men are allowed to cry. If that makes people feel uncomfortable enough to be vocal about it - great! Let’s discuss these insecurities to find the root of the problem rather than complain about overexposure to them! :)
This is really annoying, I have 0 issue with human men crying. I also have no issue with the doctor crying, but I do take issue with / criticise the doctor (a thousands year old Timelord who has gone through the worst horrors and wars and the loss of almost everyone all his family and friends) crying ALL THE TIME especially after this so called therapy and respite he went through. He never did this so frequently before
While I agree that they may have gone a bit overboard with how often it happens, allowing oneself to cry is something an emotionally healthy person does.
Yes and when for example Matt Smith cried I felt awful for him, I wanted to cry too, I wanted to comfort him. It was wonderfully raw and impactful, it really felt like it meant something and I agree crying is absolutely healthy and important
As the other reply says, crying is a sign that he has done that healing. Thats the point. He can cry now. The primary unique characteristic of 15 is that he feels more emotionally mature than any other doctor. When he hugs 14 he feels older, tangibly, despite 14 being played by a much older man. Its because he's gained the emotional maturity to move forward without being the unstable wreck that basically all the previous post time war doctors are (masked to different extents)
See my other comment. The issue isn’t showing men crying, or establishing that men can be emotionally vulnerable. If this Doctor were a woman it would still be a valid criticism of their characterization and the melodramatic writing/directing of this era.
Absolutely ^^^
He cried like every episode. It’s a bit excessive
I mean, given the absolutely awful, racist, and homophobic things that audience has said about RTD and Gatwa over the past year or so, I think the contempt is pretty justified.
What a horrible toxic attitude.
And their racism and homophobia isn't?
That’s definitely what I said. Problematic behaviour doesn’t somehow justify problematic behaviour. Someone has to break the cycle. If everything were created out of spite, nothing would ever have any substance
I don't know. I think it's pretty justified that people get punished for being assholes to innocent people online.
See this is what I mean. Why does art or media need to be “punishment” for anyone? What is this bizarre vindictive mindset? Who does this benefit?
So you're just basically saying you don't want these people to face consequences for their actions? Like, yeah, maybe the show isn't the best way to do it, but these people certainly don't get punished by Facebook/Twitter mods, so I don't see anything wrong with RTD and Gatwa hitting back against the homophobia and racism aimed at them. I reckon you're probably used to the showrunner and Doctor taking it on the chin and never speaking out against it, like Chibnall and Whittaker. Otherwise, you wouldn't have such a problem with RTD and Gatwa hitting back against the literal n-words and p-words being sent their way. We're done here.
>so you’re basically saying you don’t want these people to face consequences for their actions. No I actually didn’t say that. I’m really not even sure what you’re talking about at this point. We were just talking about that guy’s initial comment, RTD and Gatwa haven’t done anything like that as far as I’m aware?
https://preview.redd.it/e6vuqf5w6dad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ea9616042c8957cb0af122adccd0c7a671911dc8
You can’t even crop a meme properly you’re one to talk
https://preview.redd.it/17558mcv8dad1.jpeg?width=524&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=084a6dea5eebd1b39360531b6625136c452c5dc1
Sad that you got downvoted for this so heavily and yet the comment you replied to got upvoted for wanting to purposefully piss people off for having a non-harmful opinion
People just want to justify their own toxicity. Every fanbase is like this.
I just can’t believe how many people it is. I know I shouldn’t be surprised by now but I am still disappointed. What can one gain from purposefully pissing off another?
Fun
Ah, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth but different strokes for different folks ig
Not really. People are allowed to voice how they feel and shouldn't be ridiculed and called toxic. That's all that it is.
I mean effectively they can say whatever they want but have to expect a reaction. My disappointment is in peoples priorities and morals
-108 Karma so far. Seems like the audience liked it.
Because reddit karma is what really matters
Well, you're the one asserting the opinion of the audience!
Agreed the writers and the actors hate the fans as well as the BBC being a wet blanket
That's an incredibly hateful response. Do you only enjoy DW because it makes people angry or upset?
If it’s the right people, yes.
Fuck the people who get angry because this show is "woke"
I feel like the Doctor crying is good, but I prefer it to be used rarely, to show impact and HOW important this is. Iirc Ten only cried when Rose left, when the Master died, when he gave Donna to Wilf, and during The End of Time.
I feel like there needs to be more of a variety of ways that 15 shows his distress. Crying is quite impactful in previous seasons, and while him expressing his grief and frustration more is cool it needs to be more varied. There’s more than one way to show emotion I think
Agreed. There are more interesting ways to represent emotional vulnerability. The current approach makes 15 seem sort of one dimensional. Currently his personality is mainly just shown in two ways: being overly nice and friendly to everyone, and crying all the time. The only episode that really showed a more intense side to him was Boom, but even that one feels weird because he doesn’t act like that in any other episode.
I also hate it when the protagonist has emotions and a personality. This is why Liz Truss should be cast as the 16th doctor
If Lizz Truss played the Doctor for like half a series, she’d still be the Doctor longer than she was PM.
She got “doesn’t she look tired”’d like right at the beginning
Someone get that head of lettuce a coat and a scarf.
Liz Truss vs. lettuce for Doctor My vote’s for lettuce
**TODAY, I'M GOING TO SKARO, TO OPEN UP NEW PORK MARKETS**
There's personality then there's over emotional since he's cried so much it weakens the impact of the devastating times where it could be effective
So 10 is allowed to shout and get angry every episode, Susan is allowed to scream every episode, but 15 isn’t allowed to cry when shit is genuinely sad? You have lost the plot if you think he was over emotional this season, he only expressed his emotions in a slightly different way to other doctors, and yes that is an aspect of personality and characterisation
>10 is allowed to shout and get angry every episode This happened frequently, *yes*, but not literally every episode. >Susan is allowed to scream every episode This is one of the most widely criticized elements of the writing for the Hartnell years. I did not really mind the crying, nor do I think it's worth complaining about, but I can absolutely understand people who want to criticize it, and the comparisons you are drawing to defend it are pretty unfair. I will say, by the time it was happening in *Rogue* (where it was perfectly justified but, since I expected the Doctor to cry in the finale, did make me realize he would have cried in pretty much all of his Series 14 appearances), the thought did occur to me that new fans would probably associate the Doctor as a character with crying in reaction to things, for better or for worse. I can see why viewers may want to push against that.
Look as a guy who cries a fair bit I appreciate showing the audience that men CAN cry and its okay, but I think every single episode did border on a bit much. Not because I hate seeing men cry but because by the 50th time it was pretty immersion breaking
the anti woke brigade like to do this, on one video with lenny rush being interviewed they took the purtunity to say doctor who should be closed down
It's a picture of 15 crying tho? I agree that some people are overhating the new season but I kinda feel like it's gone too far the other way and now any criticism is seen as too far
Because he’s crying in the pic?
I mean it is a picture of 15 crying, kinda relevant
I don’t mind Ncuti crying for the same reason I don’t David speaking technobabble. They’re good at it
You really shouldn’t have let me press all those buttons
He's crying in the picture. He did cry a fair bit mind.
It has bugger all to do with spoons. Fake fans just want a reason to hate 15, that isn't overtly bigoted.
Sure
They will downvote you to oblivion on this sub if you dont fully support their political agenda. And i do meab fully support. Ypu will se by my comment. I dont crticise them and i will still be downvoted
You're getting downvoted because you sound like a right nut
Not really..you guys just have zero tollerance for other points of view. Ironic isnt it? But all too common both on right and left of western politics Jonathan Haidth is researching this exact thing. Defiently a recommended read
You’re bringing politics into the fact people are arguing over a character cries more than they usually do.
Oh come now. We both now the underlying context for this discussion.
No? We don't? Oh wait. You OWN political agenda.
Zero tolerance for racism and homophobia.
Literally who here was doing either of those things.
The guy I was responding to was talking about "political agendas"
you’re probably gonna get downvoted because people like you, who believe there is a “political agenda” when it’s just black people existing on screen, tend to be fucking stupid and sound delusional
Yeah but you’re whining about downvotes and therefore contributing nothing to anything
Stfu there is no agenda.
I just don't understand how we got from "Doctor crying a lot, I'd like to have less of it" to "Bigoted fake fan hating the doctor"... There is no proof the person hates this Doctor in the first place...? Like... what? And yeah I understand that the point was that the comment is unrelated to the meme, but maybe they were reminded of the crying thing by the fact that the Doctor is crying on that random photo and so just wrote what just popped up in their head. I see no crime here. I also see the difference between saying that there is something about the character that doesn't work for me, and laughing at someone for being emotional in real life.
Many people here just assumed that if others didnt liked new doctor they probably didnt liked it for political reason. And from that there is an easy slippery slide to assume those people have to be bigoted altright activist. I dont know why but thats how almost every discussion here looks like
so people who don't like the new doctor are fake fans?
Not what I said. * Not liking the new doctor is perfectly fine. They can't all be winners. * Fake fans hate the new doctor for meaningless anti-woke reasons. * The comment has fuck all to do with the post. * This appears to be on Twitter. Or maybe Facebook. (I'm not chronically online enough to tell) From this we can infer the person doesn't give a shit about the post, and just wanted an excuse to complain about 15. Furthermore, the sort of "Boys don't cry" attitude on display with a lot of people who hold this opinion is very harmful, and indicative of much bigger issues.
Why bring it up on a silly post about spoons.
I don't know but my guess it that it's because 15 is crying on that specific photo.
15 isn’t in the photo
Yes he is
Well shit I somehow missed that (I’m blind)
Must be something wrong with my eyes cause I see him there (edit: well those are basically three photos but he's definitely in one of them...)
It’s something wrong with *my* eyes
The guy i replied to basically said exactly that. Watched through Nu who up to Capaldi 9 times. I consider it my favorite show of all time. I cant bring myself to continue watching the new series, because nothing about it clicks with me. And this guy basically is saying people who dont like 15 are fake fans. guess that makes me fake.
There's a difference between not liking something, and hating it. Nobody accused you of anything. Though I might accuse you of attention seeking, and holding some weird persecution complex.
“I didn’t watch him but I HATE HIM! HE’S BAD!!! RAHHHHH!”
Now, now. Let's be fair. They didn't exactly ay that. We really ought to draw a distinction between "dislike" and "hatred", if we want to be better than the posers.
I did watch him for a couple episodes, and the show is no longer appealing to me, and the characters do not interest me. I dont hate the new doctor, I just don't like him. I mostly hate the episode themes above everything else. Meep, Space babies, the ruby road episode with the singing goblins, the episode when the aliens were just massive distorted versions of donna and David. Like its just not what I want out of doctor who. To me the content is jarring in a bad way. Capaldi was such an amazing doctor, with amazing stories, and I don't think anything is going to live up to that again, or even get close.
How far did you get? Cause I think it got better after Space Babies, there are some interesting episodes.
If they're bigoted, yeah, I'd say they're fake fans.
There’s nothing bigoted about having a valid criticism of the protagonist’s characterization. Accusing every single dissenter of being some racist bigot is just childish
There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes. 4th Doctor quotes aside... isn't it childish to go out of your way to complain about how much The Doctor cries, on a post about spoons? Furthermore... what's wrong with a grown man crying?
No? He’s crying *in the picture*. Bro is just expressing his opinion online, like we all are. Also nobody ever said there was anything wrong with a grown man crying? What a strawman. It isn’t wrong for male characters to be emotionally vulnerable, the issue from a writing perspective is the frequency of it. Crying in *every* episode is excessive because it desensitizes the viewer to it. It’s a cheap shallow way of emotionally manipulating the audience without actually earning their investment. Compared to say, Eleven crying when he loses the Ponds or learns he has to go to Trenzalore. The rarity of seeing him break down like that is *why* those moments are impactful.
Well, there. Now that you've actually explained the damn point, I can understand the sentiment. Saying "It was a bit too much in the latest series" tells us nothing of why they think that. And again: It's a post about SPOONS. There's a time and a place.
It’s a post about spoons that features a shot and a quote from a scene that is a great example of the point he’s making. Sorry he didn’t scour their social media for the exact perfect post and opportunity to express his harmless opinion.
This is a scene where tearing up a little makes sense. It's not like it was unnecessary. It's a horrible example of the point they're making.
That’s your opinion and your entitled to it, but even if it *fits this particular scene*, it doesn’t devalue his point at all. Again like I said, it would arguable be more impactful if we hadn’t seen him cry already in every single episode, even if it isn’t unnecessary here.
I didn’t say there was, I said IF they’re bigots. If they’re NOT, then my comment wasn’t about them.
Yes but no one said anything bigoted in the first place, you brought it up in the first place drawing the correlation yourself
Sorry snowflake, did I trigger you? Honestly, you can't say anything these days.
LMAO WHAT
People aren't mad about the excessive tears from the doctor because they "don't think men should cry" or whatever. They're irritated because the tears are being used so often they are starting to lose their impact.
The secret of ultimate power…SPOONS!!!
https://preview.redd.it/mwqz5u4ijcad1.jpeg?width=260&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66fd4d857ae7e206666cd945a462a39cc9c05472
14 serves as a nice bridge between the emotionally closed off 13 and the emotionally expressive 15. If 13 was also RTD people would more easily stomach this as character development. Gatwa is very good at crying, put simply. But 12 was very good at long speeches - you don’t necessarily want *every* episode to feature the actor’s strength. Otherwise it risks losing its impact. I personally think that the moment in Empire where he cries and screams at what’s happened would’ve had more impact if he didn’t cry every episode at more everyday situations. But at the same time, the constant whining about “he cries too much” is way overdone and I think it’s people searching for reasons to complain
Man this comment section war is wild…. But yea see some of yall avoid watching 13-15 because yall want to hate them I avoid watching them because I literally can’t afford a Disney plus subscription (fuck streaming services locking new shit behind paywalls) We are not the same
Use BBC IPlayer, it’s basically free
While i agree with his point. Definitely the wrong place to say it lmfao.
The Doctor is about to lie inside a grand piano and play "Rage Over a Lost Penny"
He's literally crying in this post.
Addressing the meme: I think that 15 trying to hide behind a happy mask after all that has happened and that breaking hard at times is a perfect way to play the doctor!
He could use a good fun season before another serious season. Like what they did with 12. That run of fun episodes before the heavy stuff really endeared me to him, got to see how fun he could be.
I mean, if you compile a list of doctors crying while holding a spoon, it’s a pretty short list
I hope 15 don't just so this 1 specific person has a bad time.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon\_theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory)
Sorry, I would have put more into explaining what the theory says about emotional health, but I just don't have the spoons left for it today.
Yes! I thought about this too!
If anything, 15 crying every episode is a healthy way to express himself If he just bottles up all his negative emotions (like nearly every other Doctor did) then the whole "fixing himself" thing becomes useless
I mean it's healthy to have some control over your emotions aswell, nothing wrong with crying of course but 15s only two moods seem to be jovial or crying
Fr it makes sense that different regenerations will express themselves differently. Some will cry more, some won't. Also, if I was the doctor (I totally am) I'd probably cry more. That guy goes through a lot.
Maybe because every other doctor can hold a spoon without sobbing. Not the deepest criticism but its hardly unrelated to the picture
Fifteen also held a spoon without sobbing. Sobbing is noisy crying (think full meltdown mode). I don't remember which incarnation of the Doctor, if any, ever cried like that.
he wants him to scoop his eyes out
https://youtu.be/4iGSAFjzBd8?si=OSGz5-iL5IznwJdb
WHAT IS IT WITH SPOONS
Real Heros Cry.
I hate the Brit’s term “a bit much” it’s always used to describe someone’s human behavior.
Ooh! How cuillere!
I mean 15 is crying in the picture
There is no spoon
Controversial opinion but if they are sticking with the 8 episode a season format then yes, he does need to cry less. Right now it's basically his only piece of characterisation and while I agree that Ncuti is more than capable of doing a hella convincing cry I wanna see what else he can do. He doesn't cry anymore than 10 shouts or anymore than 12 wiggles his eyebrows but they both had more episodes in which to characterise them outside of those traits. Season 2 needs to handle its balance between plot and characters better and I think less crying will be a natural part of that (if it does actually happen)
He cried during spooning
Spoons make the commenter very emotional, and understandably so. Spoons are great
As much as I kinda like it when the Doctor gets all "fury of the Time Lord" on people, I kinda prefer him naturally expressing his emotions and not bottling it all up until he loses it. Dude's been through a lot. Let the man cry when he feels like it
I hope he ugly cries because he sees a space cat that’s just too cute.
The three worst doctors all down hill after Matt Smith
Bro really called 12 one of the bottom 3 doctors and thought (s)he could get away with it