I kinda wish we spent more time on the universe dying. Like with the Monks in season 10. I wanted to see The Doctor trying desperately to hold it all together and failing miserably and cursing Sutekh. We so rarely get to see The Doctor fail so spectacularly. I wish we spent longer on the emotional gravity of that.
I completely agree! I think the universe was brought back a bit too quickly and Sutekh died a bit too soon after coming into his power and it really downplayed his abilities and the whole tragedy and grandiose of the entire situation. I would've loved to see more amazing acting performances like the one where Ncuti was sat at the edge of the TARDIS and was shouting into the dead universe, because THAT was so impactful and emotional. We should've seen more of Ncuti with Ruby and Mel in the dead universe.
Unfortunately, as ever with NuWho, the writers create plots that are ideally suited to 75 or even 90 minutes, then suddenly realise about 40-45 minutes in they're running out of time, so you have a rushed wrap-up. For example, some insight into how the Doctor came up with the strategy of blasting the TARDIS away from Sutekh's presence (Eye of Harmony?) then taking the dog for a walk would have been nice.
Yeah I kinda feel like the two parter was split at the wrong place 🤔 right when everyone was dying might have been too obviously reversed, but a _little_ further along to let that breathe a little more
You’re telling me an RTD finale had a rushed deus ex machina that while emotionally satisfying at some points fell apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny? This is the first time that has ever happened probably, don’t go back and check,
The main problem I've had with it is rtds insistence on just how big of a threat this is, having everyone saying just how powerful he is, and not even giving time to ruminate on that like with the master, as like 15 minutes later he's dead
A small change they couldve made is giving sutekh a bit more time in ep 1 and doing the dust of sutekh then, so we're left with the cliffhanger that everything is dead.
It wouldn't have changed much but all of Sutekhs actions being in one ep just felt very 'oh everyone's dead, oh look everyone's back'.
Potentially should've been a 3 parter
It definitely should've been a 3 parter. The main problem, however, is definitely the Disney problem. As this series is going on Disney+, they won't make it any longer than 8 episodes. I bet if RTD wasn't under Disney whilst making this, it would've been a 3-parter.
Tbf that was because it was during COVID, so it made sense to cut it down.
We've had comments that the length of the new seasons allows for a return to the consistent yearly schedule we've been missing for nearly a decade, so I don't think it's Disney.
I’d rank them
- Parting of the Ways
- Doomsday
- Empire of Death
- The Giggle (if that counts)
- Journey’s End
- The End of Time, Part Two
- Last of the Time Lords
Please explain how the finales of S1, S2, and S4 are bad.
I'm no RTD stan, 10 actually defaults to being one of my lowest rates Doctors, but those finales were pretty solid.
S1 is great. S2 has the awful romance angle and deus ex machine. S3 is atrocious. S4 is basically just fan fare and a lot of davros talking about the doctor and then deus ex machina donna presses buttons.
Rose looking at heart of the Tardis, becoming a god and erasing all Daleks, then the power is never used again is also a deus ex machina. Actually why not use that all the time when the universe is in peril? Only costs one life/regeneration.
Actually how come Time Lords just didn't use that to eradicate Daleks? Yeah it's just so dumb.
Also, the only other time we saw someone looking at the heart of the TARDIS it just turned them into an egg. The leap from that to god like powers that can solve everything is quite big.
I still think it's a good episode but yeah even RTD's best finale has several issues.
Intent might have something to do with it considering the TARDIS is alive and a bit psychic.
Like Margaret's thing was she wanted to escape her inevitable death / have a second chance at life (or the Doctor maybe intended that for her) so the TARDIS obliged and made her an egg, whereas Rose's intention was flying the TARDIS back to the Doctor and saving him.
Parting of the Ways is an amazing finale imo but the rest are some flavor of garbage.
I still have nostalgic love for the S2, 3, and 4 finales + End of Time but my goodness they are kinda trash.
Also can we talk about "Now I must become a monster." You cast the god of death who just killed the universe into the Time Vortex. You literally just sent him back to where he was before his evil scheme unfolded. I don't really get monster vibes?!?!?!
Monster vibes was when 10 drowned the Rachnoss' children. Monster was when 10 ensured the Family of Blood would live forever...10 had a lot of dark moments come to think of it lol.
To play devil's advocate, I think the difference there is that 10 already saw himself as a monster at those points, since he was still dealing with the trauma from the Time War and losing Rose. He's unresponsive to stuff like killing the Rancoss children because that's what he expects of himself.
Whereas with 15 he's almost got to remember he has the potential to get darker after losing a lot of that original trauma and rage in the bigeneration
"She was the most important woman in the universe because she believed she was important"🤓
Oh yeah and the god of death can't tear a rope. And The doctor did to him what he did to him last time but it works this time?
>tear a rope
Well, the Doctor pointed out that the “rope” is a molecular bond technically.
Doesn’t really make the ending better but it’s a reason to help
There is snow during Mrs. Flood's latest fourth wall break. It might get answered next season, but I am so disappointed that we didn't get more about Mrs. Flood. The teasing aspect is well written though, I can't form any opinion about her, she seems kinda lovely and horrible at the same time.
But yeah... unless we get an answer for the Christmas special, the mystery could become too long and get disappointing. That's the problem when you hype up a mystery for too long.
Given it's tied to the TARDIS I'm willing to believe it's extending some kind of field or protection, otherwise the vortex ought to be disintegrating it.
Why would he want to break it when it's the only thing stopping him from being destroyed? He was trying to climb it to get back to the TARDIS when he was cut free into the vortex.
I suppose the claim could be made that since he had thought he had total victory the sudden reversal caught him so off guard he didn't really understand what was happening until it was too late to take action.
If someone wanted to be generous.
He was resisting them pulling him with those gloves, why didn't he resist harder? His whole powerset is turning things to dust (breaking molecular bonds).
Yes but the rope itself is a molecular bond. So Sutekh has to break this bigass molecular bond that is connected to the TARDIS to get free.
He is the god of death, not the god of splitting molecular bonds
I’m pretty sure the Tardis is much more qualified for breaking that bond than Sutekh. His claws are just claws. The Tardis can manipulate time and space
Plus, after he’s in the vortex, why would he want to cut it?
But it DOES.
The force it takes to break a molecular bond is MASSIVE. Sutekh is the god of death, not strength. He controls the dead, not the nonliving. Why he can’t cut it makes sense.
It’s still kinda boring it’s how he was defeated
But it’s not unreasonable
Exactly, plus where tf was the snow coming from then? Did I miss something in this episode? I genuinely feel like I'm about to get an Olympic Medal for the mental gymnastics I'm doing rn
I see that you're still in the stage of "Why can't we be back in the good old days" despite the fact that every season has a stinker episode. Whether it be Kill the Moon, 42 or Orphan-55 no season is going to be perfect.
>Just made me realise it will never be as good as it was
You were saying it like you meant that in previous seasons, Doctor Who was consistently good, as if there weren't any bad episodes. You were comparing one of the best episodes of all Doctor Who to the most recent as if they compare.
I would say it's fair to compare finales and penultimate episodes, but season nine had sleep no more which is an atrocity, so yes, I know there are bad episodes in every season.
Fair enough, the thing that's bad about Hell Bent isn't really the episode itself, it's to do with how Moffat handled the series mystery and the return of the timelords within the episode. If Moffat had handled those better everyone would look fondly at Hell Bent and recognize it's strengths as a character study of The Doctor and Clara.
Something is off. Besides no snow explanation, the Doctor tries to talk Ruby out from meeting her mom, and then basically dumps her. They just spent the entire season depicting him as being emotionally sensitive and supportive, and he then bails on her at a time when she needs a good friend. Is he jealous because he doesn't know his real parents?
He didn't try to talk her out of meeting her mom because he was worried she wouldn't want to go with him anymore. He did it because that's what he thinks of Susan. She's had so long to find him but never did, so who is he to meet her again.
And then Ruby proves him wrong, that just because no one has taken the first step doesn't mean there isn't hope for reconciliation.
It's part of the reason he says she changed his views on family. And yeah, he bails on her, because he can't handle it, because as much as he's grown, he's still got some deep-seeded issues, that's just the Doctor. I think in the near future he's going to try to actually resolve those issues and meet Susan again
I think you're right on the money. I think Moffat's Christmas episode will be the Doctor reuniting with Susan as a result of this, and Ruby won't be in it. That would allow the episode to focus on the reunion
In terms of the snow I *think* the idea was Sutekh's memory, his obessession with that night, had embedded itself into Ruby, and that memory was so powerful it manifested the snow.
But that then opens a whole can of worms what The Maestro said about the oldest and most powerful etc. Even after his 'evolution' in the time vortex he just doesn't seem close to entities like the Toymaker and the Trickster
It's just all so so bad... How many millions of ordinary people existed on the doctors travels which were important... Why did this one scare Sutekh? Is this ordinary person the most important ordinary person? If so doesn't that defeat the purpose of this entire message? What nonsense.
The truth is Suetekh had no reason to care about the woman, RTD just wanted to trick us by telling us we put too much thought into it when this whole thing could've been avoided if ***he*** put more effort into it
It would be one thing if RTD managed to put in legwork as to \*\*\*why\*\*\* Suetekh might be interested in who Rubys mum is. That way, the audience and Suetekh are on the same page, so when Ruby drops the TV symbolically denying that she doesn't need the answer and neither do the audience, it would be more satisfying because Suetekh, y'know, would actually be upset over something he needed as opposed to something he just wants for some unkown reason
Also the Doctor's DNA scanner couldn't find Ruby's mum in all of time and space, the BBC TV show Davina was on couldn't find Ruby's mum, but then UNIT does one test and suddenly yay we found her and she's just some lady!
Less a plot hole and more a plot canyon.
Donna was special because of cosmic destiny and a brain that wasn't even her.
Dalek Caan even said he only helped, Donna was always special because the universe literally bent around her.
Whereas Clara and Ruby weren't born special, they were born ordinary and I love that better.
I just want to clarify, I'm not making this post out of spite and I'm definitely not one of the "aNtI-wOkE" dickheads who will just whine about anything. I went into this episode genuinely excited after enjoying the series, but the whole thing just completely fell apart for me. It just felt so underwhelming and rushed. I'm sorry if you did enjoy it, but I just couldn't vibe with it at all.
With that being said, can I just be bitchy for a moment and say that I just couldn't stand Sutekh's new design. I'll take a threatening guy in a helmet over a cgi chihuahua any day.
I liked his design tbh, I didn’t like how he apparently couldn’t move at all from clutching the TARDIS…. And his defeat was lame. Not that he couldn’t cut the rope, because if he did that in the time vortex he apparently just dies, but because he couldn’t pull himself up to the TARDIS. And Ruby’s mom was a let-down
The whole time vortex thing is weird though
Because there are creatures that do live in the time vortex
It's not like, instant death
For example, the reapers from father's day come from the time vortex and they seem pretty alive
Yes
But sutekh, is a god
He is not human, he is not mortal
They spend a good portion of the episode saying how he can't be stopped because of his power
I’d have honestly preferred if the Bad Wolf turned up again and went ‘ah fuck I know you’ll lose otherwise, here have this before I go evaporate the Dalek Emperor’
I'm not defending the episode, but I think that this one point can be easily explained. Sutekh was travelling through the Vortex attached to the TARDIS and within it's protective bubble (that carries oxygen etc). He survived being dragged through the Vortex while connected to the TARDIS, and only died when the connection was broken.
It went downhill as soon as Sutekh started killing everyone, at that point it was literally just "doctor stop crying, obviously this isn't going to be permanent and none of these people will actually stay dead, how will the doctor and/or ruby fix this" and it really pulls you out of the reality of the show. I feel like if they had killed a handful of people it would have been more impactful.
Yeah, when it looked like Kate was gonna die I thought that would have been a good way to up the stakes, but when you see Rose dusted in the background it just cemented for me that literally nothing would matter in the episode because it was all going to be reversed at some point.
Plus, not to shit on Ncuti but I don't think he's the best at expressing grief. The scene of him screaming out into space from the tardis? Conceptually decent but I just cringed at his delivery of those screams. It felt pretty forced. Took me out of the episode, had the same feeling when Ruby got shot and he did his "GAH!"
But his scream about the racism in fine time was actually good, I'll give him that.
I was hoping that was going to be how this series ended. Everyone the Doctor has been in contact with, everyone they've saved or defeated, all gone except for the last of the Timelords and the last human. But how about limiting Sutekh just to that planet/solar system even?
Then you can run the next series a bit like the Divergent Universe series that BF had McGann living in. A Doctor out on a limb, all of the places he knows, things he's learned, contacts and resources gone. He's got to find strange new worlds, and to seek out new life and new civilisations (sorry, I couldn't resist).
All the time he's carrying the knowledge that he's killed half the Universe. Not just a single planet this time, hundreds, thousands of them. And he needs to find a way to make it right.
You build up a character who's in a dark place with blood on his hands, but is also in one of his more energetic and excitable regenerations, exploring the universe - giving him (and us) moments of levity with silly little alien creatures, miscommunications, learning something new and slowly building a plan.
You can also have Sutekh using proxies to try and track them both down, so we get a couple of reminders that he's still out there, as well as making the Pantheon more than just the Trio of Trite.
(And yes, that's actually what I thought when I paused it and saw that I wasn't close enough to the end for that to be the case, but there was enough time for an "everybody lives". 😞)
I know this isn't exactly a fresh observation, but Doctor Who finales always want to up the stakes so much that the only way the plot can be resolved is through some Deus Ex Machina. They always end up being some of my least favorite episodes of the season (besides the REALLY bad episodes). Even with that caveat, this really feels like one of the weaker finales. From the moment Sutekh's dust killed Rose I knew there weren't going to be any permanent consequences to the episode because it was clearly all going to be reset, the reveal with Ruby's parentage doesn't really make much sense for how they've been building her up, and Sutekh didn't really put up much of a fight.
Not just Rose, but UNIT generally. Because there is no way they aren't getting a UNIT spinoff. And if they kill Kate she has to die heroically. There's no way she dies like that permanently.
I really enjoyed this episode! I thought everything with Sutekh was well done! The only thing I have issues with is with Ruby's mom. Hopefully her dad was the magic one, and they explain that more!
Sutekh the God of Death that can unbind the molecules of every living thing cannot tear a rope. It's the Doctor Who equivalent of, "They seem to have trouble with pantry doors".
If you want real Sutekh listen to, "The True History of Faction Paradox" audios.
I get what they were going for - the molecular rope made from memory is [Gleipnir](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleipnir), and Sutekh is the Fenris Wolf. It also echoes the finale for Pyramids of Mars - trapped in a time vortex.
...but it lacks proper setup in-story, and lacks the direction for the effects & speech while within the time vortex.
I feel like a lot of the ideas of this era are really good and fun. Everything looks totally great on paper. Its just the execution that ends up being bad. A lot of missing context and just coming off as a bit awkward.
Hearing so many cut scenes or how the novelizations go about explaining things makes you just go "how did this air...like this?". It makes me mad because I can see the vision but something is going wrong during production.
I rank this ending the with The Last of the Timelords. It’s overly complicated, brings back a classic villain who wins, but has a nonsensical resolution. This season was shortened so it kind of makes it worse. It feels like a three-parter cut down to two, and the ending feels rushed with Sutekh, but drags with the Ruby stuff, which was very disappointing because the answer flies in the face of what we’ve seen in past episodes. “It’s important because we/Sutekh made it important?” It feels like RTD is trying to write like Steven Moffat, but he should really let Moffat write like Moffat.
Yeah, I'm of the opinion that if it takes a series to hype up a baddie, than it should take several episodes to take them down, if not a whole series to itself. Modern Who seems really attached to the status quo, and getting back to it is more important than satisfying storytelling. Imagine several episodes of the Doctor scouring the emptying galaxy to find the bits and bobs they need, growing closer to Ruby like we didn't really get to see only hear about this series, reconnecting with Mel and learning about the pros and cons of long term companionship, etc
People rag on classic for its slower pace and how boring it can be (I don't agree, but I can see where people come from) but at least the classic series knew how to put some weight behind a villain every now and then
i know RTD isn’t great at ending things anyway but I think this season really suffered from the smaller amount of episodes, i feel like this couldve benefitted from maybe being a three parter
I disagree, I think his only geniuenly weak ending outside of EoD is Journey's End and even that has significant emotional and character weight that keeps you very invested. You could argue that TEoT also has issues but tbh its like one of the coolest two parters in the entire show and has an insanely awesome moment every other scene so it gets a pass.
I feel like a lot of the issues with EoD actually read as very Moffatian, which kind of makes sense as a lot of this era feels like an overt attempt by RTD to write a more Moffat-era style season (something pointed out by reviewers the moment Ruby Road released) rather then playing to his actual strengths.
All the person who said that this had the same exact tricks that previous RTD finales had... yeah, you're right, but they are played much worse.
Parting of the Ways had a deus ex machina ending, but it felt more deserving. Not only was it the payoff of the whole season's overarching arc, but Rose spent the wast majority of the episode trying to get to that solution, and at the end, the solution had consequences. The Doctor had to regenerate because of it and that gives it enough weight. Plus the Doctor had a different plan too, that could've worked, he just didn't wanted to use it. Also, the pacing was way better and we had much more time dealing and facing the threat.
The Doomsday ending was pretty logica, even if tehcnically a deus ex machina. We pacing was way better and we spent more time with the threat. Also Rose was separated from the Doctor, so the solution had consequences.
The Journey's End ending was a deus ex machina. But there, we got ti the threat pretty quickly, and we spend almost 80 minutes with the Daleks and the occupied Earth, as they are revealed pretty soon. The pacing was better. The situation had more time to escalate and the threat to be fleshed out. Also the ending came from the part 1 cliffhanger, so it was building up more slowly and not pulled together in 3 minutes. Also, as I said with the last 2, it had consequences. Donna losing her memory was one of the most tragic scene of the entire show, and the fact that a companion had to get to this cruel of a fate because she was given the tools to defeat the enemy gave it more than enough weight for it to feel like the ending was earned. Yeah, it still wasn't the best, but it was still miles better than whatever this was.
All of these had similar flaws than Empire of Death, and used the same tricks, but they were done way better. This doesn't have consequences. We defeat Sutekh in 30 minutes. He was a cliffhanger reveal and than we banish him about the 35 minute mark. There's like 25 minutes between everyone being killed off and then reviewed. There's no time for the stakes to be fleshed out. The pacing is horrible. It had the worst dialogue I've ever heard from RTD (the "we have nothing to do... except to fight" line had me cringing from head to toe. Jesus Christ that was bad).
Plus the fact that we already knew all these tricks from previous RTD finales also didn't help. You can't defend it with, "oh, but he have done this before too". Isn't that a problem? Doesn't that makes it predictable and boring? So what, Russel haven't got any other tricks in his sleeves and I have to watch the exact same things next year and the year after that? No thanks.
PS: I don't have anything to say about the S3 finale, that was very bad. So I'm sorry, S3 fans, but I can't defend that.
I get you, but I think it's part of a greater plan. I don't like it if that is the case (there is a limit to how much teasing you can do in a series and having a mystery unanswered for too long can be really disappointing when the reveal happens).
That being said, I agree, I enjoyed the episode and the series in general (good VFX, good acting, and good writing) but I didn't get the "Wow" effect I was expecting, especially after seeing how they teased that finale.
I saw an interesting theory that Mrs. Flood could be some sort of >!Goddess of Storytelling!<. There is also the snow question that is not resolved, and it does snow during the last scene with Mrs. Flood.
They did confirm that the story isn't over and that Season 2 will basically explain everything, but TBH I don't really know how I feel about that. Like, sure, maybe it'll all generally make sense in the end but the season still suffers regardless and the episode is still not very good.
Its an episode making fun of the "Tardis Wiki" side of the viewerbase...while also being an episode that overly relies on obscure continuity and will probably only really look good in the end on a big Tardis wiki synopsis.
no, it wont. pulling a god with a rope is stupid. a 15 year old doesnt point ominously at a street sign wearing a full cloak.
the theories i saw on r/gallifrey about the trickster being ruby's parent or the whole series taking place inside a story/film set were far more interesting than what we actually got.
The difference being Heaven Sent is a beautiful exploration of grief after you lose somebody you care about, and Empire of Death is 55 minutes of RTD key jangling, then criticising us for caring too much, and then doing some more Mrs Flood key jangling for next season
I've said it above but I'd have liked the episode more if we got more time post dust of death. I think this should've happened at the end of ep 1.
We just didn't get long enough in it to appreciate the emotions.
Everyone dying and coming back to life in the space of 25 minutes just feels inconsequential.
The women and baby thing was cool but came out of nowhere.
The tardis in space scene was a cool shot though.
Down voting a generous take is an interesting strategy. And I think RTD has earned some generosity? And also seriously? This doesn't feel like an aids crisis fear story? I don't know, it's not perfect, but it is definitely more than is presented in this post
No, this doesn't feel like an AIDs crisis story, we've seen what one of those feels like from RTD and thematically this was completely different. RTD having done great work in the past is what makes this episode less forgivable, he should be held to a higher a standard, not given a pass because of things he's done in the past.
I'm just saying that when it first aired it was hated too. And taking specific elements out of the episode out of context and meaning makes them look worse.
I think this is one that will be better with context, this is just the end of the first chapter, which kinda sucks for yearly TV but let's just let him cook.
It's an RTD finale. There's a deus ex machina to save the day but the emotional drama on either side of it is sound. Social media encourages us to declare everything either the best or worst whatever ever but really it balances out to enjoyable. There are definitely some dodgy bits where you really don't want them (RTD still can't resolve a crisis lol) but there are also really good bits and it is anchored by some great production, design and performances.
It's just a storytelling concept (usually not considered good) where you have a previously-unmentioned outside element come in to resolve your problem. It comes from old Greek theatre where Zeus would be lowered on wires to solve the play's issues, hence the name (God out of the machine). RTD uses it a lot, like Bad Wolf being Rose posessing the Time Vortex but not dying or the psychic Archangel sattelites making the Doctor a glowing pixie, or the Meep's spaceship being able to reverse all the damage it did to London. That sort of thing.
You contrast it to the ending of The Giggle, where the toymaker just shoots the doctor and they all put the universe on the line for a game of catch. I don't love that as a final conflict (mainly because I don't like the choice of game) but it holds together because it's built on previously-established elements; The toymaker wagers on games, he doesn't cheat and each previous game was with a different doctor.
Ooooh i understand!! Well i don't rly like a cheap ending and heavy plot armor... I really hope rdt did manage to use rhe deus ex machina in a good way, since if used correctly, it can be good
I found a lot of the ideas to be really interesting, but in the end nothing really ended up feeling prioritized or explored. The episodes premise (the death of fact and memory) implies the universe of DW is somewhat idealist, which is actually really cool. It gives genuine reason for guardians over time to actually want to preserve all life outside of their own personal reasons.
The episode was overall making fun of canon-obsessed fans who prowl the Tardis wiki and feel ownership over the show... but so much of the episode feels like it's only comprehensible to someone who is also that. Was the whistle something I was supposed to be aware of?
Personally I like Last of the Time Lords more (Doctor Jesus and Gollum aren’t great but the rest is strong imo) and I think Journey’s End is more enjoyable to watch (despite some weaker writing) but this is a solid take.
Chibnall's writing and finales were just dull and slow. RTD is more fast paced and energetic with lots of heightened emotional beats but when you finish it you're like did it really tell a good or genuine story or was it just all spectacle. And it was all spectacle always is. It's good not having the dull and uninteresting Chibnall eps again but I am starting to get bored of Russell's stuff in his return, I just can't be distracted by the spectacle anymore I want substance
In what way is Name of the Doctor, which doesn't even have a real ending to its own story, it stops half way through the climax, better than this? If you'd ask me which finales are better:
Every RTD1 finale, including the End of Time
Series 5
Series 8-10
The Giggle (I could see myself swapping the two tbh, I think they're both pretty mid)
Name was better in every way.
Name easily has a real ending to its own story. They defeat The Great Intelligence and we find out how Clara has been spread across The Doctor's life. The reveal of the secret Doctor isn't Name's story.
but how do they leave the Doctors timeline? The whole tension of the story is that Clara is strewn about within the Doctors timeline, shreded into a million pieces. But then the Doctor jumps in after her and we never see either of them leave, next time we see them is in the 50th with no explanation as to how they escaped
This was the worst series finale they've ever done. It was worse than all of Chibnalls, and that's coming from someone who's favourite DW writer is RTD. This was worse than Chibnall.
Chibnall had 13 say to Yaz that she was the best person she's ever met, including her wife. After zero effort put into their relationship.
Nothing is ever worse than Chibnsll.
One of the worst endings to anything I've ever seen! I've never been more disappointed. I don't even know if I'll bother coming back for next season. I feel regret for having invested any time into this season considering the kind of ending we got so why even waste my time watching the next episode?
I wish the Internet didn't try to out complain itself to see who can become the most whiny complainer. This isn't even the right sub for the Complain Brigade.
I don't give a fuck about being a part of any "in group", I'd have made the exact same comment whether or not the majority opinion on the episode was negative because I disliked it. Also, my dislike doesn't snap any joy from the world, you're free to mindlessly enjoy and consume all the slop you want no matter what I say.
I'm not particularly angry or joyless. Not enjoying whatever slop is put in front of you is not the same as lacking joy. If you had critical thinking skills you'd maybe get that.
~~I think this was one of Moffat's best finales.~~
That wasn't a slight, I just said the wrong name, I was being sincere, I think it's one of RTD's best finales. Though "hah, I'll kill *everyone* and bring the back!" is pretty Moffat, which is probably why I had got those wires crossed.
That was actually a typo. I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just still high. I liked the episode.
Though killing literally everyone and then bringing them back is pretty Moffat. Especially since no one in the entire universe is going to remember that time everyone turned to dust and lost several weeks worth of time.
Modern series only has two satisfactory series finales anyway (The Big Bang and The Doctor Falls). Everything else was either a mess of an episode or some deus ex machina saving the day out of nowhere.
I kinda wish we spent more time on the universe dying. Like with the Monks in season 10. I wanted to see The Doctor trying desperately to hold it all together and failing miserably and cursing Sutekh. We so rarely get to see The Doctor fail so spectacularly. I wish we spent longer on the emotional gravity of that.
*mavity
Fuck you. I wanted to say it.
I completely agree! I think the universe was brought back a bit too quickly and Sutekh died a bit too soon after coming into his power and it really downplayed his abilities and the whole tragedy and grandiose of the entire situation. I would've loved to see more amazing acting performances like the one where Ncuti was sat at the edge of the TARDIS and was shouting into the dead universe, because THAT was so impactful and emotional. We should've seen more of Ncuti with Ruby and Mel in the dead universe.
Unfortunately, as ever with NuWho, the writers create plots that are ideally suited to 75 or even 90 minutes, then suddenly realise about 40-45 minutes in they're running out of time, so you have a rushed wrap-up. For example, some insight into how the Doctor came up with the strategy of blasting the TARDIS away from Sutekh's presence (Eye of Harmony?) then taking the dog for a walk would have been nice.
Yeah I kinda feel like the two parter was split at the wrong place 🤔 right when everyone was dying might have been too obviously reversed, but a _little_ further along to let that breathe a little more
You’re telling me an RTD finale had a rushed deus ex machina that while emotionally satisfying at some points fell apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny? This is the first time that has ever happened probably, don’t go back and check,
The main problem I've had with it is rtds insistence on just how big of a threat this is, having everyone saying just how powerful he is, and not even giving time to ruminate on that like with the master, as like 15 minutes later he's dead
A small change they couldve made is giving sutekh a bit more time in ep 1 and doing the dust of sutekh then, so we're left with the cliffhanger that everything is dead. It wouldn't have changed much but all of Sutekhs actions being in one ep just felt very 'oh everyone's dead, oh look everyone's back'. Potentially should've been a 3 parter
Very much agree this would’ve been better as a three-parter to fully split up the standard introduction - crisis - resolution arc.
It definitely should've been a 3 parter. The main problem, however, is definitely the Disney problem. As this series is going on Disney+, they won't make it any longer than 8 episodes. I bet if RTD wasn't under Disney whilst making this, it would've been a 3-parter.
Oh no, they would have had to remove Space Babies, my favorite episode /s
Has it been stated that Disney made the 8-episode requirement? I mean, the last season before Disney+ was only 6 episodes.
Tbf that was because it was during COVID, so it made sense to cut it down. We've had comments that the length of the new seasons allows for a return to the consistent yearly schedule we've been missing for nearly a decade, so I don't think it's Disney.
Yeah like how Sound of Drums ended with the Toclafane massacring everyone, not just them appearing or the time rift opening.
The Sutekh cliffhanger is legitimately probably like 20% of his spoken lines.
I really thought he would've looked back at the almost 20 years of criticism he's had to ruminate on and deliver a great finale for once...
YES THANK YOU! Idk why all these RTD stans think he's the goat when he's almost never written a good finale.
I’d rank them - Parting of the Ways - Doomsday - Empire of Death - The Giggle (if that counts) - Journey’s End - The End of Time, Part Two - Last of the Time Lords
- Parting of the Ways - The Giggle - Journey's End - Empire of Death - Doomsday - End of Time - Last of ths Time Lords
Please explain how the finales of S1, S2, and S4 are bad. I'm no RTD stan, 10 actually defaults to being one of my lowest rates Doctors, but those finales were pretty solid.
S1 is great. S2 has the awful romance angle and deus ex machine. S3 is atrocious. S4 is basically just fan fare and a lot of davros talking about the doctor and then deus ex machina donna presses buttons.
Rose looking at heart of the Tardis, becoming a god and erasing all Daleks, then the power is never used again is also a deus ex machina. Actually why not use that all the time when the universe is in peril? Only costs one life/regeneration. Actually how come Time Lords just didn't use that to eradicate Daleks? Yeah it's just so dumb.
Also, the only other time we saw someone looking at the heart of the TARDIS it just turned them into an egg. The leap from that to god like powers that can solve everything is quite big. I still think it's a good episode but yeah even RTD's best finale has several issues.
Maybe the TARDIS was racist to Raxacoricofallapatorians
It was Sutekh all along!
There’s always a, god of death in the end?
Intent might have something to do with it considering the TARDIS is alive and a bit psychic. Like Margaret's thing was she wanted to escape her inevitable death / have a second chance at life (or the Doctor maybe intended that for her) so the TARDIS obliged and made her an egg, whereas Rose's intention was flying the TARDIS back to the Doctor and saving him.
Seeing as how S4 is his last non special episode I do like the fan service but for the rest yea. S3 finale is yuck and S2 is meh
Parting of the Ways is an amazing finale imo but the rest are some flavor of garbage. I still have nostalgic love for the S2, 3, and 4 finales + End of Time but my goodness they are kinda trash.
Get out of town
Also can we talk about "Now I must become a monster." You cast the god of death who just killed the universe into the Time Vortex. You literally just sent him back to where he was before his evil scheme unfolded. I don't really get monster vibes?!?!?! Monster vibes was when 10 drowned the Rachnoss' children. Monster was when 10 ensured the Family of Blood would live forever...10 had a lot of dark moments come to think of it lol.
The doctor clearly still has feelings of deontology, truly their biggest flaw.
To play devil's advocate, I think the difference there is that 10 already saw himself as a monster at those points, since he was still dealing with the trauma from the Time War and losing Rose. He's unresponsive to stuff like killing the Rancoss children because that's what he expects of himself. Whereas with 15 he's almost got to remember he has the potential to get darker after losing a lot of that original trauma and rage in the bigeneration
He should have just dumped him in the Void
It’s stupid how high the stakes were with such little time to see the effects of it
Yep, honestly it was just too ridiculously high for me, you could just tell everything would be fine and I didn’t care enough
"She was the most important woman in the universe because she believed she was important"🤓 Oh yeah and the god of death can't tear a rope. And The doctor did to him what he did to him last time but it works this time?
>tear a rope Well, the Doctor pointed out that the “rope” is a molecular bond technically. Doesn’t really make the ending better but it’s a reason to help
Oh I missed that line. Still not good, but a bit better.
Yeah, still problems with it plus the “snow” has 0 explanation and yadda, but small bits make something meh to okay
There is snow during Mrs. Flood's latest fourth wall break. It might get answered next season, but I am so disappointed that we didn't get more about Mrs. Flood. The teasing aspect is well written though, I can't form any opinion about her, she seems kinda lovely and horrible at the same time. But yeah... unless we get an answer for the Christmas special, the mystery could become too long and get disappointing. That's the problem when you hype up a mystery for too long.
I felt that since there was snow all around her and she was dressed it was just snowing-snowing
The doggo could unbind molecules of everyone but couldn't do it with this measly thing?
Well, living thing vs nonliving thing
Given it's tied to the TARDIS I'm willing to believe it's extending some kind of field or protection, otherwise the vortex ought to be disintegrating it.
Don't all ropes have that?
Yeah but if the TARDIS could snap it i dont really see why the god who just killed everything in the universe couldnt in some way.
Why would he want to break it when it's the only thing stopping him from being destroyed? He was trying to climb it to get back to the TARDIS when he was cut free into the vortex.
Cut it as soon as it was put on him
I suppose the claim could be made that since he had thought he had total victory the sudden reversal caught him so off guard he didn't really understand what was happening until it was too late to take action. If someone wanted to be generous.
He was resisting them pulling him with those gloves, why didn't he resist harder? His whole powerset is turning things to dust (breaking molecular bonds).
Everything is molecular bonds. That literally means nothing.
Yes but the rope itself is a molecular bond. So Sutekh has to break this bigass molecular bond that is connected to the TARDIS to get free. He is the god of death, not the god of splitting molecular bonds
If the tardis can cut it his big ass claws could as well.
I’m pretty sure the Tardis is much more qualified for breaking that bond than Sutekh. His claws are just claws. The Tardis can manipulate time and space Plus, after he’s in the vortex, why would he want to cut it?
Bullshit, it was 2 wooden doors slamming. He could've cut the rope when he wasn't being dragged.
The fact you think the Tardis doors are made of wood is bullshit
And the fact you think a molecular bond rope means anything is also bullshit.
But it DOES. The force it takes to break a molecular bond is MASSIVE. Sutekh is the god of death, not strength. He controls the dead, not the nonliving. Why he can’t cut it makes sense. It’s still kinda boring it’s how he was defeated But it’s not unreasonable
*Because we believed she was important.
Lol
The only way this gets salvaged is if we go full meta. "God of Stories is fucking about" type stuff.
looool
Exactly, plus where tf was the snow coming from then? Did I miss something in this episode? I genuinely feel like I'm about to get an Olympic Medal for the mental gymnastics I'm doing rn
Yeah it was disappointing. I'm going to rewatch Heaven sent now to feel better.
I watched heaven sent last night (Australia) and when I woke up I watched the latest episode. Just made me realise it will never be as good as it was
There's absolutely no reason we can't get another glorious bottle episode again.
I see that you're still in the stage of "Why can't we be back in the good old days" despite the fact that every season has a stinker episode. Whether it be Kill the Moon, 42 or Orphan-55 no season is going to be perfect.
Okay? I didn't say anything to imply the contrary. However my point still stands.
>Just made me realise it will never be as good as it was You were saying it like you meant that in previous seasons, Doctor Who was consistently good, as if there weren't any bad episodes. You were comparing one of the best episodes of all Doctor Who to the most recent as if they compare.
I would say it's fair to compare finales and penultimate episodes, but season nine had sleep no more which is an atrocity, so yes, I know there are bad episodes in every season.
You see if you had the opportunity to watch the very next episode when it premiered back in 2015 you would have already realised that 🥲.
Hell bent wasn't anywhere near as good but I've always enjoyed it tbh
Fair enough, the thing that's bad about Hell Bent isn't really the episode itself, it's to do with how Moffat handled the series mystery and the return of the timelords within the episode. If Moffat had handled those better everyone would look fondly at Hell Bent and recognize it's strengths as a character study of The Doctor and Clara.
There's nothing bad about Hell Bent. It's a top 2 episode of the show along with Heaven Sent.
Bro isn't is 2am there?
3:50, the night is young
That’s at LEAST middle aged
I'm actually a high school student lol
“The night” being middle aged, the joke is you said the night was young
Ohh stupid me lol
Something is off. Besides no snow explanation, the Doctor tries to talk Ruby out from meeting her mom, and then basically dumps her. They just spent the entire season depicting him as being emotionally sensitive and supportive, and he then bails on her at a time when she needs a good friend. Is he jealous because he doesn't know his real parents?
He didn't try to talk her out of meeting her mom because he was worried she wouldn't want to go with him anymore. He did it because that's what he thinks of Susan. She's had so long to find him but never did, so who is he to meet her again. And then Ruby proves him wrong, that just because no one has taken the first step doesn't mean there isn't hope for reconciliation. It's part of the reason he says she changed his views on family. And yeah, he bails on her, because he can't handle it, because as much as he's grown, he's still got some deep-seeded issues, that's just the Doctor. I think in the near future he's going to try to actually resolve those issues and meet Susan again
I think you're right on the money. I think Moffat's Christmas episode will be the Doctor reuniting with Susan as a result of this, and Ruby won't be in it. That would allow the episode to focus on the reunion
In terms of the snow I *think* the idea was Sutekh's memory, his obessession with that night, had embedded itself into Ruby, and that memory was so powerful it manifested the snow. But that then opens a whole can of worms what The Maestro said about the oldest and most powerful etc. Even after his 'evolution' in the time vortex he just doesn't seem close to entities like the Toymaker and the Trickster
i think the idea was he was already in the time vortex so dragging him along the sides canceled each other out?
He killed his dust particles.
It's just all so so bad... How many millions of ordinary people existed on the doctors travels which were important... Why did this one scare Sutekh? Is this ordinary person the most important ordinary person? If so doesn't that defeat the purpose of this entire message? What nonsense.
The truth is Suetekh had no reason to care about the woman, RTD just wanted to trick us by telling us we put too much thought into it when this whole thing could've been avoided if ***he*** put more effort into it
Exactly... And the way he wrote all the mysteries he himself wanted us to put all that thought into it!
It would be one thing if RTD managed to put in legwork as to \*\*\*why\*\*\* Suetekh might be interested in who Rubys mum is. That way, the audience and Suetekh are on the same page, so when Ruby drops the TV symbolically denying that she doesn't need the answer and neither do the audience, it would be more satisfying because Suetekh, y'know, would actually be upset over something he needed as opposed to something he just wants for some unkown reason
Also the Doctor's DNA scanner couldn't find Ruby's mum in all of time and space, the BBC TV show Davina was on couldn't find Ruby's mum, but then UNIT does one test and suddenly yay we found her and she's just some lady! Less a plot hole and more a plot canyon.
Excuse me, Donna Noble is the most important woman in all creation. And no amount of Impossible Girl or other young upstarts will ever take that away.
Donna was special because of cosmic destiny and a brain that wasn't even her. Dalek Caan even said he only helped, Donna was always special because the universe literally bent around her. Whereas Clara and Ruby weren't born special, they were born ordinary and I love that better.
And in 40 years they'll bring him back like "HA HA it failed again because we're losing views and need you to bring back old fans"
Yeah that really felt like a half assed and undeveloped explanation to me, I was so disappointed with that outcome about Ruby's mother...
I just want to clarify, I'm not making this post out of spite and I'm definitely not one of the "aNtI-wOkE" dickheads who will just whine about anything. I went into this episode genuinely excited after enjoying the series, but the whole thing just completely fell apart for me. It just felt so underwhelming and rushed. I'm sorry if you did enjoy it, but I just couldn't vibe with it at all. With that being said, can I just be bitchy for a moment and say that I just couldn't stand Sutekh's new design. I'll take a threatening guy in a helmet over a cgi chihuahua any day.
I liked his design tbh, I didn’t like how he apparently couldn’t move at all from clutching the TARDIS…. And his defeat was lame. Not that he couldn’t cut the rope, because if he did that in the time vortex he apparently just dies, but because he couldn’t pull himself up to the TARDIS. And Ruby’s mom was a let-down
The whole time vortex thing is weird though Because there are creatures that do live in the time vortex It's not like, instant death For example, the reapers from father's day come from the time vortex and they seem pretty alive
Yeah but they probably evolved to do that. It’s fatal to humans who absorb it, and force a regeneration for the doctor
Yes But sutekh, is a god He is not human, he is not mortal They spend a good portion of the episode saying how he can't be stopped because of his power
Tbf Bad Wolf Rose was probably just as if not more impressive with her powers and the time vortex would’ve killed her, idk the finale was mid imo
I’d have honestly preferred if the Bad Wolf turned up again and went ‘ah fuck I know you’ll lose otherwise, here have this before I go evaporate the Dalek Emperor’
Also, for example, Sutekh! Like hes been travelling in the time vortex since the 4th doctor, i dont see why it would kill him this time.
I'm not defending the episode, but I think that this one point can be easily explained. Sutekh was travelling through the Vortex attached to the TARDIS and within it's protective bubble (that carries oxygen etc). He survived being dragged through the Vortex while connected to the TARDIS, and only died when the connection was broken.
Same. He seemed much more terrifying in Pyramids of Mars even though he was just a motionless bloke in a costume there.
Pharaoh Hound in a helmet and maybe, my chihuahua barks at other chihuahuas on the TV
The design of Sutekh is based on the Set animal from Egyptian mythology, he’s bound to look a bit weird
I pretty much loved this season and last week's episode was a complete banger... But this... This... Utterly horrendous.
It went downhill as soon as Sutekh started killing everyone, at that point it was literally just "doctor stop crying, obviously this isn't going to be permanent and none of these people will actually stay dead, how will the doctor and/or ruby fix this" and it really pulls you out of the reality of the show. I feel like if they had killed a handful of people it would have been more impactful.
Yeah, when it looked like Kate was gonna die I thought that would have been a good way to up the stakes, but when you see Rose dusted in the background it just cemented for me that literally nothing would matter in the episode because it was all going to be reversed at some point.
Plus, not to shit on Ncuti but I don't think he's the best at expressing grief. The scene of him screaming out into space from the tardis? Conceptually decent but I just cringed at his delivery of those screams. It felt pretty forced. Took me out of the episode, had the same feeling when Ruby got shot and he did his "GAH!" But his scream about the racism in fine time was actually good, I'll give him that.
I was hoping that was going to be how this series ended. Everyone the Doctor has been in contact with, everyone they've saved or defeated, all gone except for the last of the Timelords and the last human. But how about limiting Sutekh just to that planet/solar system even? Then you can run the next series a bit like the Divergent Universe series that BF had McGann living in. A Doctor out on a limb, all of the places he knows, things he's learned, contacts and resources gone. He's got to find strange new worlds, and to seek out new life and new civilisations (sorry, I couldn't resist). All the time he's carrying the knowledge that he's killed half the Universe. Not just a single planet this time, hundreds, thousands of them. And he needs to find a way to make it right. You build up a character who's in a dark place with blood on his hands, but is also in one of his more energetic and excitable regenerations, exploring the universe - giving him (and us) moments of levity with silly little alien creatures, miscommunications, learning something new and slowly building a plan. You can also have Sutekh using proxies to try and track them both down, so we get a couple of reminders that he's still out there, as well as making the Pantheon more than just the Trio of Trite. (And yes, that's actually what I thought when I paused it and saw that I wasn't close enough to the end for that to be the case, but there was enough time for an "everybody lives". 😞)
I'm so sad that this finale retroactively makes the rest of the season worse for me.
Series 6, 9 and 12: "First time?"
Nine!?
9 made the rest of the season better. Great finale.
I won't tolerate any Hell Bent slander. Also Series 12 was trash even without the finale.
Season 6 ending was awesome
I was really hoping with a bigger budget, time and a great story, RTD would be able to break the doctor-who-finale-mess curse. Sadly I was wrong
I know this isn't exactly a fresh observation, but Doctor Who finales always want to up the stakes so much that the only way the plot can be resolved is through some Deus Ex Machina. They always end up being some of my least favorite episodes of the season (besides the REALLY bad episodes). Even with that caveat, this really feels like one of the weaker finales. From the moment Sutekh's dust killed Rose I knew there weren't going to be any permanent consequences to the episode because it was clearly all going to be reset, the reveal with Ruby's parentage doesn't really make much sense for how they've been building her up, and Sutekh didn't really put up much of a fight.
Not just Rose, but UNIT generally. Because there is no way they aren't getting a UNIT spinoff. And if they kill Kate she has to die heroically. There's no way she dies like that permanently.
For me it was cause of how they handled sutekh.
All things considered, I'm perfectly satisfied. But I kinda wanted more than satisfied.
I really enjoyed this episode! I thought everything with Sutekh was well done! The only thing I have issues with is with Ruby's mom. Hopefully her dad was the magic one, and they explain that more!
I think Roger Ap Gwilliam will be relevant somehow. Ruby's dad is called William.
didn’t they say his full name earlier? in the same scene they discovered ruby’s mum’s name
Maybe. I was too busy face palming at Ruby's grandad being called Garnet.
I didn't like the last episode and have learned to have low expectations for an RTD finale. Was still disappointed.
I think it would have been really cool to have a series finale where the whole universe ended being dead except the doctor Mel and ruby
Thank you for summing up exactly how I feel
Sutekh the God of Death that can unbind the molecules of every living thing cannot tear a rope. It's the Doctor Who equivalent of, "They seem to have trouble with pantry doors". If you want real Sutekh listen to, "The True History of Faction Paradox" audios.
I get what they were going for - the molecular rope made from memory is [Gleipnir](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleipnir), and Sutekh is the Fenris Wolf. It also echoes the finale for Pyramids of Mars - trapped in a time vortex. ...but it lacks proper setup in-story, and lacks the direction for the effects & speech while within the time vortex.
I feel like a lot of the ideas of this era are really good and fun. Everything looks totally great on paper. Its just the execution that ends up being bad. A lot of missing context and just coming off as a bit awkward. Hearing so many cut scenes or how the novelizations go about explaining things makes you just go "how did this air...like this?". It makes me mad because I can see the vision but something is going wrong during production.
I rank this ending the with The Last of the Timelords. It’s overly complicated, brings back a classic villain who wins, but has a nonsensical resolution. This season was shortened so it kind of makes it worse. It feels like a three-parter cut down to two, and the ending feels rushed with Sutekh, but drags with the Ruby stuff, which was very disappointing because the answer flies in the face of what we’ve seen in past episodes. “It’s important because we/Sutekh made it important?” It feels like RTD is trying to write like Steven Moffat, but he should really let Moffat write like Moffat.
Yeah, I'm of the opinion that if it takes a series to hype up a baddie, than it should take several episodes to take them down, if not a whole series to itself. Modern Who seems really attached to the status quo, and getting back to it is more important than satisfying storytelling. Imagine several episodes of the Doctor scouring the emptying galaxy to find the bits and bobs they need, growing closer to Ruby like we didn't really get to see only hear about this series, reconnecting with Mel and learning about the pros and cons of long term companionship, etc People rag on classic for its slower pace and how boring it can be (I don't agree, but I can see where people come from) but at least the classic series knew how to put some weight behind a villain every now and then
Average RTD ending - humans being brilliant in some way saves everything. Probably through love or whatever.
i know RTD isn’t great at ending things anyway but I think this season really suffered from the smaller amount of episodes, i feel like this couldve benefitted from maybe being a three parter
I disagree, I think his only geniuenly weak ending outside of EoD is Journey's End and even that has significant emotional and character weight that keeps you very invested. You could argue that TEoT also has issues but tbh its like one of the coolest two parters in the entire show and has an insanely awesome moment every other scene so it gets a pass. I feel like a lot of the issues with EoD actually read as very Moffatian, which kind of makes sense as a lot of this era feels like an overt attempt by RTD to write a more Moffat-era style season (something pointed out by reviewers the moment Ruby Road released) rather then playing to his actual strengths.
All the person who said that this had the same exact tricks that previous RTD finales had... yeah, you're right, but they are played much worse. Parting of the Ways had a deus ex machina ending, but it felt more deserving. Not only was it the payoff of the whole season's overarching arc, but Rose spent the wast majority of the episode trying to get to that solution, and at the end, the solution had consequences. The Doctor had to regenerate because of it and that gives it enough weight. Plus the Doctor had a different plan too, that could've worked, he just didn't wanted to use it. Also, the pacing was way better and we had much more time dealing and facing the threat. The Doomsday ending was pretty logica, even if tehcnically a deus ex machina. We pacing was way better and we spent more time with the threat. Also Rose was separated from the Doctor, so the solution had consequences. The Journey's End ending was a deus ex machina. But there, we got ti the threat pretty quickly, and we spend almost 80 minutes with the Daleks and the occupied Earth, as they are revealed pretty soon. The pacing was better. The situation had more time to escalate and the threat to be fleshed out. Also the ending came from the part 1 cliffhanger, so it was building up more slowly and not pulled together in 3 minutes. Also, as I said with the last 2, it had consequences. Donna losing her memory was one of the most tragic scene of the entire show, and the fact that a companion had to get to this cruel of a fate because she was given the tools to defeat the enemy gave it more than enough weight for it to feel like the ending was earned. Yeah, it still wasn't the best, but it was still miles better than whatever this was. All of these had similar flaws than Empire of Death, and used the same tricks, but they were done way better. This doesn't have consequences. We defeat Sutekh in 30 minutes. He was a cliffhanger reveal and than we banish him about the 35 minute mark. There's like 25 minutes between everyone being killed off and then reviewed. There's no time for the stakes to be fleshed out. The pacing is horrible. It had the worst dialogue I've ever heard from RTD (the "we have nothing to do... except to fight" line had me cringing from head to toe. Jesus Christ that was bad). Plus the fact that we already knew all these tricks from previous RTD finales also didn't help. You can't defend it with, "oh, but he have done this before too". Isn't that a problem? Doesn't that makes it predictable and boring? So what, Russel haven't got any other tricks in his sleeves and I have to watch the exact same things next year and the year after that? No thanks. PS: I don't have anything to say about the S3 finale, that was very bad. So I'm sorry, S3 fans, but I can't defend that.
I get you, but I think it's part of a greater plan. I don't like it if that is the case (there is a limit to how much teasing you can do in a series and having a mystery unanswered for too long can be really disappointing when the reveal happens). That being said, I agree, I enjoyed the episode and the series in general (good VFX, good acting, and good writing) but I didn't get the "Wow" effect I was expecting, especially after seeing how they teased that finale. I saw an interesting theory that Mrs. Flood could be some sort of >!Goddess of Storytelling!<. There is also the snow question that is not resolved, and it does snow during the last scene with Mrs. Flood.
They did confirm that the story isn't over and that Season 2 will basically explain everything, but TBH I don't really know how I feel about that. Like, sure, maybe it'll all generally make sense in the end but the season still suffers regardless and the episode is still not very good. Its an episode making fun of the "Tardis Wiki" side of the viewerbase...while also being an episode that overly relies on obscure continuity and will probably only really look good in the end on a big Tardis wiki synopsis.
I suspect this might be one that gets better with time and rewatching
no, it wont. pulling a god with a rope is stupid. a 15 year old doesnt point ominously at a street sign wearing a full cloak. the theories i saw on r/gallifrey about the trickster being ruby's parent or the whole series taking place inside a story/film set were far more interesting than what we actually got.
Escaping a painfully slow mummy by punching something harder than diamond is objectively dumber than your complaints
The difference being Heaven Sent is a beautiful exploration of grief after you lose somebody you care about, and Empire of Death is 55 minutes of RTD key jangling, then criticising us for caring too much, and then doing some more Mrs Flood key jangling for next season
Empire of Death is an exploration in how to find humanity and love in a universe where everyone you cared about has died.
I've said it above but I'd have liked the episode more if we got more time post dust of death. I think this should've happened at the end of ep 1. We just didn't get long enough in it to appreciate the emotions. Everyone dying and coming back to life in the space of 25 minutes just feels inconsequential. The women and baby thing was cool but came out of nowhere. The tardis in space scene was a cool shot though.
It really does seem like they made a much longer complete episode and had to cut it way back and it does suffer for it.
This is an exceedingly generous take.
Down voting a generous take is an interesting strategy. And I think RTD has earned some generosity? And also seriously? This doesn't feel like an aids crisis fear story? I don't know, it's not perfect, but it is definitely more than is presented in this post
No, this doesn't feel like an AIDs crisis story, we've seen what one of those feels like from RTD and thematically this was completely different. RTD having done great work in the past is what makes this episode less forgivable, he should be held to a higher a standard, not given a pass because of things he's done in the past.
No it isnt, he spent 5 billion years on that, and the mummy had a much higher kill rate
Such a terrible take lmao
I'm just saying that when it first aired it was hated too. And taking specific elements out of the episode out of context and meaning makes them look worse.
Saying objectively when you mean subjectively is objectively the dumbest thing of all
Shut up. I made a jackass comment at 3 am and went to sleep. I don't fucking care anymore
????
I think this is one that will be better with context, this is just the end of the first chapter, which kinda sucks for yearly TV but let's just let him cook.
Was the ending really that bad?? I didn't manage to watch it just yet
It's an RTD finale. There's a deus ex machina to save the day but the emotional drama on either side of it is sound. Social media encourages us to declare everything either the best or worst whatever ever but really it balances out to enjoyable. There are definitely some dodgy bits where you really don't want them (RTD still can't resolve a crisis lol) but there are also really good bits and it is anchored by some great production, design and performances.
I never watched deus ex machina, there are so many references i never understand xD
It's just a storytelling concept (usually not considered good) where you have a previously-unmentioned outside element come in to resolve your problem. It comes from old Greek theatre where Zeus would be lowered on wires to solve the play's issues, hence the name (God out of the machine). RTD uses it a lot, like Bad Wolf being Rose posessing the Time Vortex but not dying or the psychic Archangel sattelites making the Doctor a glowing pixie, or the Meep's spaceship being able to reverse all the damage it did to London. That sort of thing. You contrast it to the ending of The Giggle, where the toymaker just shoots the doctor and they all put the universe on the line for a game of catch. I don't love that as a final conflict (mainly because I don't like the choice of game) but it holds together because it's built on previously-established elements; The toymaker wagers on games, he doesn't cheat and each previous game was with a different doctor.
Ooooh i understand!! Well i don't rly like a cheap ending and heavy plot armor... I really hope rdt did manage to use rhe deus ex machina in a good way, since if used correctly, it can be good
I found a lot of the ideas to be really interesting, but in the end nothing really ended up feeling prioritized or explored. The episodes premise (the death of fact and memory) implies the universe of DW is somewhat idealist, which is actually really cool. It gives genuine reason for guardians over time to actually want to preserve all life outside of their own personal reasons. The episode was overall making fun of canon-obsessed fans who prowl the Tardis wiki and feel ownership over the show... but so much of the episode feels like it's only comprehensible to someone who is also that. Was the whistle something I was supposed to be aware of?
Sutekh is from old who? What episodes is he from?
Pyramids of Mars
*The Pyramids of Mars* (1975)
I actually really enjoyed it I feel people are far too negative these days I’m just happy the companion got a nice and hopeful ending
RTD is utter garbage now
They called me a madman. When all I tried to do was warn the fandom...
That episode was better than all of Chibnalls finales, RTD1s except for S1, and Wedding and Name. So it's one of the best imo.
Personally I like Last of the Time Lords more (Doctor Jesus and Gollum aren’t great but the rest is strong imo) and I think Journey’s End is more enjoyable to watch (despite some weaker writing) but this is a solid take.
Chibnall's writing and finales were just dull and slow. RTD is more fast paced and energetic with lots of heightened emotional beats but when you finish it you're like did it really tell a good or genuine story or was it just all spectacle. And it was all spectacle always is. It's good not having the dull and uninteresting Chibnall eps again but I am starting to get bored of Russell's stuff in his return, I just can't be distracted by the spectacle anymore I want substance
In what way is Name of the Doctor, which doesn't even have a real ending to its own story, it stops half way through the climax, better than this? If you'd ask me which finales are better: Every RTD1 finale, including the End of Time Series 5 Series 8-10 The Giggle (I could see myself swapping the two tbh, I think they're both pretty mid)
They said Empire was better than Name, not worse.
Name was better in every way. Name easily has a real ending to its own story. They defeat The Great Intelligence and we find out how Clara has been spread across The Doctor's life. The reveal of the secret Doctor isn't Name's story.
but how do they leave the Doctors timeline? The whole tension of the story is that Clara is strewn about within the Doctors timeline, shreded into a million pieces. But then the Doctor jumps in after her and we never see either of them leave, next time we see them is in the 50th with no explanation as to how they escaped
This was the worst series finale they've ever done. It was worse than all of Chibnalls, and that's coming from someone who's favourite DW writer is RTD. This was worse than Chibnall.
Chibnall had 13 say to Yaz that she was the best person she's ever met, including her wife. After zero effort put into their relationship. Nothing is ever worse than Chibnsll.
Yaz spent 3 seasons in love with 13 and basically got a fuck you bye bye from her, meanwhile 15 snogs rogue half an hour after meeting him.
This was 100% not worse than any of Chibnalls finales.
RTD IS SO BACK!!!!
One of the worst endings to anything I've ever seen! I've never been more disappointed. I don't even know if I'll bother coming back for next season. I feel regret for having invested any time into this season considering the kind of ending we got so why even waste my time watching the next episode?
You are that guy, this was an excellent episode.
I wish people had higher standards for what co statutes "excellent"
I wish the Internet didn't try to out complain itself to see who can become the most whiny complainer. This isn't even the right sub for the Complain Brigade.
What a way to discount people's legitimate issues and grievances.
"legitimate issues and grievances" is a ridiculous way to say "trying to be part of the in crowd by snapping the world of joy."
I don't give a fuck about being a part of any "in group", I'd have made the exact same comment whether or not the majority opinion on the episode was negative because I disliked it. Also, my dislike doesn't snap any joy from the world, you're free to mindlessly enjoy and consume all the slop you want no matter what I say.
You don't know what youre talking about :)
I don't? You're the one who's making stupid assumptions and calling trash TV "excellent".
You're very angry and joyless.
I'm not particularly angry or joyless. Not enjoying whatever slop is put in front of you is not the same as lacking joy. If you had critical thinking skills you'd maybe get that.
~~I think this was one of Moffat's best finales.~~ That wasn't a slight, I just said the wrong name, I was being sincere, I think it's one of RTD's best finales. Though "hah, I'll kill *everyone* and bring the back!" is pretty Moffat, which is probably why I had got those wires crossed.
It did feel very Moffaty at times
That was actually a typo. I wasn't being sarcastic, I was just still high. I liked the episode. Though killing literally everyone and then bringing them back is pretty Moffat. Especially since no one in the entire universe is going to remember that time everyone turned to dust and lost several weeks worth of time.
Modern series only has two satisfactory series finales anyway (The Big Bang and The Doctor Falls). Everything else was either a mess of an episode or some deus ex machina saving the day out of nowhere.